Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[PranaDevil]

Over three years since I've played a game, so here's hoping the first one back is a doozy.

[PranaDevil]

Just a heads up as well, I'll be rather busy this weekend (lots of gaming to get in while I'm at a friends), so apologies if I don't get properly settled until late Sunday or Monday.

[PranaDevil]

LQ definite town due to not paying enough attention to who's in the game to even direct a vote correctly? Sounds like a plan to me.

vote: Alisae

for reasons. (Hint, they aren't good reasons)

[PranaDevil]

Christ on a bike... well to answer the earlier question about reasons for my vote... it was to get some discussion going, looks like it worked better than planned. Not going to try reading all this thoroughly on a mobile while at a friends, so will give it a closer read when I get home Sunday night. For now will leave my vote where it is as any vote is better than no vote.

[PranaDevil]

And I'm playing video games.
I'll get back to you later.

I played in window borderless LQ....

Just to say (still only skimming quickly) posts like these don't help town, and just serve to pad the thread out. This only helps scum. So if you aren't scum, please stop this and only post if you have something to really add to the conversation. If you are scum, continue by all means.

[PranaDevil]

Right, entertaining weekend, I attempted to at least somewhat keep up to date on my phone, but keeping track of that shit is hard when you can't clearly read who said what easily. So now I'm back home and will have a nose at what happened properly, from around the time my vote on Alisae was picked up on and started being somewhat queried (as I feel that's where we switched from RVS to actual hunting).

<<< I now empathize with this. A lot. >>>

I'd say the first time there was actual stuff of note was LQ's post #80. Though it's a terrible reasoning, always as for reasons first, I've seen players catch scum early on even in RVS. Also, scum are likely to typo more than others? Bit of a bugger for me, this laptop's shit and misses letters all over the shop, so while I try and catch all typos, I can be almost 100% certain I'll miss one at some point despite focusing as hard as I can. Must be scum then...

Doesn't mean LQ is scum though, but definitely god awful reasoning at the least.

Alisae's post #84 is solid, not from a town nor scum view, but from a "pointing out your reasoning was awful" view.

LQ's post 88 however I like. If only because of point 5, I like getting out of RVS as much as anyone else, so a post that gets us out of it is great. I've even done deliberately scummy posting to get us out of RVS so we can get the game focused, so a bad post (80), to get us into good discussion is fine in my eyes, and gives a slight town lean. Scum should be happy to keep RVS going, while town want to get discussion sparked (and lurkers are annoying as piss regardless of the side they're on).

XnadrodX's post #92 is awful, seriously bad, LQ stated shannon was either bad town or obv. scum being obv. scummy, which... yeah I disagree with regardless, but XnadrodX focuses just on the obv. scum bit and ignores the entire fact LQ even said it could be bad town play? Reads a bit try hard to me, not a fan of deliberately ignring part of a statement because it doesn't fit your own intentions. That is a scummy move.

Due to never playing with people in this game before (and I don't look for meta that I don't already know, depression means I struggle with effort anyway, doing something that feels like work for a game? Bugger that), I have no clue if karnos' post #99 is standard for them regarding not really giving a statement on things (it's bad form either way), however I'm not sure on the LQ wagon here, there seems no reason for it and the fact Alisae dived right in on the next post seems a bit weird. I don't understand the wagoning at all. LQ seems fine, if a little confused with things. Plus, as I said, LQ was the first to start actively moving the game forward, that's instant town points from me there.

Thus, kronos' vote seems bad for multiple reasons, and Alisae's is almost diving on after the first vote.

post #104 from karnos is awful, If LQ is scum, Garmr is a partner? why? Why could LQ not be scum and Garmr just not like the vote? What about if LQ is town, and Garmr is scum wanting town cred? What if both are town and Garmr has a town read on LQ at this point and felt a vote without stating the reasoning is at best bad play, and at worst, scummy? All are valid. Fair enough on the explanation, it doesn't work that way though, town should always be arguing things as well, they need their point across. Hell, if anything, unless scum is being voted for they don't give a toss anyway, so town will be arguing their point even more than scum will. Or at least, they always should be, and if you're town and don't do this, you should be.

However, to answer the last question, yes, an opportunistic vote would be a wagon that you can dive on easily that's gaining steam, being number one on it is rarely opportunistic, in fact it would be rare for it to be, maybe a cock up in wording leads to an easy mislynch and scum want on early, but this wasn't it, so I'd not argue karnos was opportunistic, just could have done with actually posting reasons when voting, not waiting until later.

Not feeling karnos scum at this point, though considering the lack of any tells, he still falls in the top two with XnadrodX.

shannon post #108 Is lovely. Clear explanation (I'm crap for that, this wall is evidence, and I apologise), and seemingly town. More pushing of people though, this doesn't mean a town lean, but if I read future posts forwarding the game, I think town. If future posts are filler, this is likely scum wanting to seem town without actually saying anything.

Garmr post #111 I like. Pretty much says what I just did, and I'll accept the "predict the best place to put their votes" thing too. Never really thought about it like that, but yes, an opportunistic vote could be "this looks like a wagon may start, bung on a vote quick". So additional lean for karnos as scum there, and I almost want to call Garmr obv. town here.

post #115 by nyd is... shit? I dunno what else to say, there's clearly plenty to look at, and he just throws a vote at Alisae with shit-tastic reasoning? Buh?

post #120 from XnadrodX, should I just point to Garmr's point about opportunistic people and save time? I shall indeed do that.

(Side note... it's just now I spot his sig saying to just call him Jordan... my phone didn't show sigs so I got confused, and on the laptop I wasn't paying attention to the sigs til I just caught it as I went to move on, shall be Jordan from now as easier to type)

Lexa's entire response from post #128 (no link) onwards is weird, I don't get any of it, what's more I forgot they were in the game, same with All Alone (where her vote is), Would like to see more posting rather than not contributing.

Alisae, regarding post #142, why is my post above it definite town? I see nothing in what I said to be town, if anything I'd say it was neutral, was more dipping in to let people know I've not abandoned the game. I get a worrying feeling it could be scum trying to keep town on side here.

Then there's a shit posting batch from Alisae and Pep... fuck that noise. Seriously... over 20 posts that equate to white noise, take that bullshit to outside the game, it doesn't belong in here, and I also stick to what I posted while dipping my head in, at best it's annoying as fuck, at worst it's scummy as it just adds fluff. Add in that Pep has done literally nothing at this point. Yeah... scummy as all fuck there. Active, while not actually "active".

Posts #166 - #168 from Garmr are so obv town it's scary. Solid hunting, actual posting... could just be that there's so little of it going on that it stands out, but even if that's the case, it's a welcome relief from the shit posting.

Jordan post #172 seems pretty good in regards to explanation, though I don't like the current potential for linking people in any fashion. It's all fine later in the game and such, but for this early, suggesting partners and that they set this up or that up is stretching it. Plus, vote karnos over LQ because of the feeling that LQ could be deliberately letting karnos get town cred for voting for him, but don't vote LQ at all... nah, sorry, there's more holes in this than swiss cheese.

I will also point out, "seems" pretty good. For me it feels like it's attempting to be town, rather than actually being a town post. The reasoning doesn't match up, and it definitely looks like sudden buddying with Garmr and shannon (who did pick up with better posting from my earlier statement, but nothing massive that I could tell... in fact nothing stood out to me).

And... LQ goes and posts a run of shite from post #175 that are awful. Nothing of substance, nothing to produce discussion, nothing that looks like scum hunting, just posting for the sake of posting. Shoots up on my scum radar for that.

karnos' post #187 and post #188 make no sense to me. Nothing about predicting the future, just about probabilities that if it seemed like someone was about to have a wagon forming, diving on that person early looks good, it would seem "less" opportunistic to be number 1 on a wagon than number 4 for instance, might even buy scum an extra day if they were lucky.

188 though confuses me, what's "shitty scum logic"? Also "best bet" isn't a basis for a read, even going through the thread thus far I can see multiple people worthy of a vote (at this point, LQ, Jordan, Pep, nyd, karnos (obv. don't vote yourself)), all with actual reasons that can be properly argued, a quick throwaway comment about "shitty scum logic" doesn't sit well with me. What's more annoying is it doesn't feel scummy either, just like you don't quite get the game and that there needs to be a lot of discussion which you aren't providing. So while I can see where others are going with you being voted as scum (I even say here you're one of the stronger scum reads), I don't think it's worth giving it a strong read with this. Just... please add more to the discussion when posting?

Alisae post #210 Attacking someone for shitty logic even though you think they're town, is not scummy. Same as agreeing with someone's point, whilst believing they are scum doesn't mean anything. You should question everyone in this game. Unless you are scum "everyone" can be scum. I've said Garmr is obv. town to me, but I'll question him, and push if I feel the need to either get an answer or get a reaction, if anything pushing people should be a town read (simlarly to being forgetful should be, Scum will be checking and double checking, town will be happy to just post... though beware of WIFOM). So the reasoning in this post is atrocious, and I agree with Jordan being scummy as hell still, but the way you got to it seems weird and I don't like it at all.

shannon post #228 pretty much sums up my feelings on LQ's attack on her. I really, really, am not liking LQ at this stage, just something about the way he posts rubs me the wrong way. Especially with claiming shannon's Alisae vote was oportunistic, I can understand the vote myself, and I didn't find your tunnelling to be all that tunnelling... seriously, it didn't really register as tunnelling, just as general posting. shannon gave a fine reason for the vote, LQ dives on it as if it had anything to do with his "tunnelling", sorry, no, no scum hunting there LQ.

You can't say it's scummy to see an opening and vote because that's half of this game, people see something scummy, and vote. Sometimes they sheep another's vote, sometimes they see something you didn't, but ultimately, we need 7 people for a lynch, that means 6 others will see the same as the first person on that wagon, and that doesn't mean any of them were scummy for doing it.

Really feels like reaching at this stage, and scummy to boot.

TheRealGin replaces nyd, does a bunch of good posting to bring him up to a null read (seriously, one post from nyd and it was scum city... so it too lots of good posts from Gin to fix that to null)

and... more shit posting from Alisae.

BBT comes in with post 261 (no link) and literally votes karnos and does nothing else? Fuck outta here.

Also, Pep, not voting is ALWAYS terrible, "lol" all you want, no vote = no pressure... also do some goddamned scum hunting, you've done nothing thus far despite posting multiple times in blocks and clearly reading the thread. No, the LQ/Alisae statement in post #259 doesn't cut it.

-----------

So, quick recap of reads:

Town
Garmr
Shannon

Null
Gin

Scum (In order from scummiest to least)
LQ
Jordan
karnos
Alisae
Pep

Need to actually bloody do something
BBT
All Alone
KTthecreeper
Lexa
Pep (who lands here as well through doing sweet fa, yet still actually posting)

vote: LicketyQuickety

Am more than happy to see a lynch on my top three (LQ, Jordan or karnos), but am voting for who I believe is most likely scum.

Also, huge apologies for the wall-o-text, will aim to post more regularly from now on to avoid this.

[PranaDevil]

Yeah, that's my catch up from the weekend, I'm also crap at condensing down things I say, so I'll do my damndest not to wall-post, but apologies for when i do post too much in one lump.

[PranaDevil]

It was the fact that after everything that was obvious to respond to up to that point, he was just saying to all wagon Alisae, in essence "for the lols" so to speak. As if we were in RVS or something.

It became null though as I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt that it was just someone not that invested in the game and so replaced out, and the posts prior to that wouldn't involve much hunting. Ergo, your hunting removes the issues I had with the slot. Doesn't make you town, just means you're not deserving of being viewed as scum for someone elses actions.

Can't argue for a Pep push either, though he will be moving up my scum list unless he starts actually being useful and fast. Any of my top 3 I'm fine with, but Pep I'm not "that" certain on, same with Alisae, I just have leans that way for them. kronos and above however I've decent enough scum reads to be happy with a vote.

[PranaDevil]

Alisae, the shit posting was part of the reasoning, not all of it. You've also not answered why my post was a town post, I'd still like that answered.

All Alone doing absolutely sod all is bad. As in super terrible. All that has happened, and you turn up, unvote and nothing else? No. Do something. Definitely moved into the scum read territory.

LQ, you say your case on shannon is still ongoing. In all fairness unless someone is scum then their cases should always be ongoing and fluctuating. Otherwise you're playing the wrong game.

Not liking LQs pushing of Garmr over trivial stuff. It's not like Garmr has been solid in saying "Alisae will flip town". So pushing it makes no sense at this stage. If Garmr is actually scum, all you've done is make him be more careful. If you honestly thought it was a tell, you would have been better waiting for him to make a solud mistake. Thus it feels like it's forced, as though trying to get town reads away from Garmr.

I can sort of accept Lexa's reasoning, though a single vote is not pressure in any form, especially so early in day one. So a reaction test for AA there was a non starter. Will properly judge once she gets more active.

[PranaDevil]

1) Same difference really.

2) you're the one suggesting he "knows" Alisae is town, and then pushed it.

3) I'll give you that, though I'll also point out it doesn't change that regardless of play style, if it seems there's scum motivation for doing what you're doing, it will look scummy. Thus a terrible job of making it seem like Garmr knows Alisae is town, without catching a slip, just seems like scum attempting to get peoples reads of Garmr changed.

Also, I said the same as Shannon regarding ongoing reads, got a totally different response... Doesn't seem genuine really. Like, I get a pass, shannon gets pressure? Hmmm...

[PranaDevil]

So... AA and BBT do nothing of anything for ages, and charge right in and vote the person who called them out for doing feck all, sure, sounds legit.

If either of you have any sort of case though please share it with the class. Can hardly respond to votes when there's no content there. At the same time, reads on everyone else rather than tunnelling would also be beneficial to town. (If you're town it helps us hunt, if you're scum, well... it'll help the rest of us hunt)

[PranaDevil]

So... AA and BBT do nothing of anything for ages, and charge right in and vote the person who called them out for doing feck all, sure, sounds legit.

If either of you have any sort of case though please share it with the class. Can hardly respond to votes when there's no content there. At the same time, reads on everyone else rather than tunnelling would also be beneficial to town. (If you're town it helps us hunt, if you're scum, well... it'll help the rest of us hunt)

Why are you uppity? Where is this coming from?

Just not a fan of doing nothing, then acting like someone's scummy and voting for them while providing no information.

However BBTs recent posting is fine, in understanding his reasoning I mean, as unlike me he was updating as he went, thus saw my few posts prior to that which very much could look like scum keeping their head down up to said wall. Perfectly fine reasoning. I'm going to say AA clearly doesn't have that reasoning as they quoted from said wall. Thus outside of OMGUS voting, I expect an actual case on me sooner than later from them.

Not going to say AA is scum for it, they may well have good reasons. It would be a bold scum move to charge in and go all guns a-blazing on someone with no votes, though I never completely rule things out.

[PranaDevil]

With the LQ thing, I'm not sure. Until there are flips it's hard to say regarding motivation. Both ways are plausible, and with all three high in my scum reads it's clear I'm wrong somewhere, the whole thing is a mess, though karnos doesn't help things as I struggle to understand his meaning half the time. Anyone who's played with him before know if that's standard behaviour, or if he's normally understandable? Could be scum that's struggling to argue a point after the fact, could be terrible explanations in general.

Definitely happy to pressure KTs slot too. The vote will depend on initial responses, but pressure there needs to happen in question form at least.

[PranaDevil]

I think attention needs paying to Jordan, karnos and LQ, but then I'd also like opinions on everyone in all honesty. Your slot has been dead thus far so having some input across the board will help us to assess said slot.

[PranaDevil]

I'm definitely getting more of a town vibe from LQs postings, regular pushing of people, aiming for reactions. Plus I've deliberately done stuff that looked weird in the past to get a read on someone, so for now at the very least, LQ gets moved into the slight town read for me.

Jordan doesn't feel like he's doing much for me, flying under the radar a fair bit, so I'm keeping my possible scum opinion there.

Karnos still seems scummy, but again, that could easily be through style of play and such, but everything he posts just gives me an air of stretching for something.

All Alone dives into scum spot 1 though by still not actually doing anything, and omgus'ing while acting like stating he is gives him a free pass.

LQs attempts at garnering reactions, in hindsight, seem more genuine, AAs feel like is an attempt to slide onto a relatively popular wagon and pretend it's nothing.

vote: All Alone

AA, why should we not lynch you today? Noting your activity (or lack thereof), and the inability to do any scum hunting so far.

Oh yeah, BBT, more content please. I liked the initial stuff, but more substantial posting with current reads would be good.

Apologies for typos and other stuff, typing on a phone at 1am doesn't allow the best typing experience... nor the most awake, this is more what I am feeling at this stage in the game.

[PranaDevil]

Garmr, regarding karnos, as he's still comfortably in my top 3 scum reads, I'm totally happy to lynch him when the time comes. My vote will sit on whoever I'm most suspicious of at any time (usually, sometimes pressure is needed). But when it's lynch time I'll always be happy to stick my vote on anyone I have a scum read on. So assume I have some sort of ghost vote on karnos and will be happy to hammer should the need arise.

Also, shannon, did you miss where I said I was getting town vibes from LQ? He's dropped out of my scum reads, so not only is a vote on him bad at that point, but All Alone was clearly scummy.

As far as voting with people I read as scum... well that's going to be par for the course with this game anyway. I find Jordan and karnos to be scummy. If I vote karnos I'm automatically voting alongside Jordan.

Onto TBs dance, I can see why people would say it's scummy. I can also see it very likely isn't. I see no scum motivation to be that blatant in their actions, if TB were scum I'd expect there to be much more of a gap between the start and end of that 180. I also see it as something scum would be more than happy to latch onto and push for a lynch, which makes me question Alisae immediately there.

Not sure I like Garmr's accusation about the scum on AAs wagon either, though that could be that Lexa is unlikely to have attempted to push another wagon over karnos' (as per Garmr's statement) by being on it since RVS , LQ and TB I lean town on, and I'm the other. It also relies on karnos being scum, which isn't certain. If he flips scum then by all means, review counter wagons and such, but if he flips town a counter wagon would be pointless, meaning it comes from a town perspective (that or scum trying to see who may be an easier mislynch).

[PranaDevil]

Karnos, calm your temper, calling someone an asshole only makes me want to PL you now. This is a game where we should be critical of everyone (even town reads), there's no benefit to getting pissed off at some for having a case on you and it doesn't lead to a fun experience for anyone.

What I will say is (without looking back over things as I'm on a phone at the moment... unlimited phone data is good, but no home internet is bad, and I have limited tethering, until Feb 7th most posting will be via the phone, but then will be more careful with data and spread it evenly), I like karnos' point regarding Jordan's complete contradiction. So on that point I want to hear how Jordan plans to explain himself, as it does scream scum forgetting something they said earlier.

[PranaDevil]

XnadrojX & Garmr share a PT. Probably because they are both scum.

Explain. I still view Jordan as scummy, but not Garmr, so would like to see where you got this conclusion from.

[PranaDevil]

There's literally nothing for them to explain. You made a baseless statement, gave nothing to back it up, and now expect them to explain something they clearly won't agree with (even if they are scum, they're highly unlikely to admit to having a PT). So, again, get explaning. You've shot up on my scum read for that, so I'm completely happy to vote for you over AA if your next response doesn't give a legitimate explanation that makes sense.

[PranaDevil]

vote: karnos

[PranaDevil]

Nah, Karnos is a great lynch.

He is trying to scare away a potential hammer by saying he might shoot them.

You're not wrong. He is a great lynch.
Is he trying to scare away a potential hammer? Nah. I think we have more time to spend and we could be looking elsewhere, that's all.
Plus if we do decide to let him live, scum will just NK him.

Hold up, that last line I really, really do not like. If we let him live scum will NK him sounds like you know he's town and scum need him out of the way.

Can anyone explain the sudden BBT voting to me please?

[PranaDevil]

Phone call wiped my response, will try and write it up again as close to what I initially said.

The way the karnos wagon stopped so quick is bad. I don't trust the role claim by itself, and thus the sudden diving off screams scum wanting to either avoud a lynch on a Vengeful, or scum hopping off a buddy, either way I feel scum stalled that lynch rather than town.

Alisae, why do you belueve the claim? As in, other than the claim itself, what did karnos do that made you believe it was coming from town?

Gin, why did you answer what I said to Alisae? Answering something like that just gives scum a chance to hide their intentions, it smells a bit like you're saying it on his behalf almost.

Regarding karnos self hammering, that would be a shitty idea, vengeful or otherwise. For a start, if you know someone is town you would never hammer them, same should go for self hammering. If you're town you would be voting for known town, a crap idea.

If you're scum self hammering, again, stupid idea as you reduce the odds of your side winning. Without your vote town may vote elsewhere.

In short the fact karnos didn't self hammer is not a tell in either direction, other than proving he's not a complete dumbass. In fact the only time a vengeful should be self voting is to trick scum into hammering, which is great fun in lylo (did it myself).

I also still don't het the BBT votes here. Like, seriously, explain the case beyond quoting the post, I can read that post, I can't read your reasoning. Failure to do so will result in me believing you are scum attempting to push someone for nothing.

I believe they were all the points I needed to hit.

Oh yeah, Alisae, scum might not kill him if karnos is town if they feel his scum reads are off and may kill someone else if he's lynched, especially as, if he is town, at this stage he would be an easy mislynch for scum. Plus, if there are protective roles they may protect him, or not NK'ing him could create confusion... that's just off the top of my head, it would be a ton of WIFOM, but I can see exactly why scum would leave town karnos alive. Add in he may be scum and that's another great reason he could survive night.

EBWOP: Yeah, that unvote was definitely bollocks, TB, explain yourself.

[PranaDevil]

No, there's a difference between believing I was wrong, and knowing it. Unless you are privvy to peoples roles and alignments, you definitely do not "know" I was wrong. Plus, either way, you stepped in before the person it was directed at could say anything. I will again point out there is zero town reason for that as it lessens available info, both on me and Alisae, that could have been used later.

Also the fact you refuse to give any reasons behind BBTs post being scum worthy concerns me a lot.

[PranaDevil]

To me it legitimately reads like Alisae actively knows karnos will flip town, now I'll give people benefit of the doubt at times, but I'll also expect them to back up what they are saying. You failed to let hom do that and gave him a comfortable "out" if any pressure came from it, how is that anything but scummy?

Also, BBTs post can only be seen as scummy if you are doing to that post, that which you claimed I did to Alisaes.... soo....

[PranaDevil]

It's the wording of the post to me. The line "scum will just NK him" screams that they know scum will kill him. Not "they might", no "what if he's scum?" In there at all, just "scum will kill him". Alisae can say he believes the claim, but short of actually being scum, Alisae wouldn't know someone's alignment, meaning there should always be doubt. So what if karnos is scum? Scum would hardly NK him then would they?

But, as that was all ignored, it, to me, reads that Alisae somehow knows karnos would flip town, as otherwise there would still be uncertainty.

[PranaDevil]

How is it misrepresentation? It's only read that way because of someone who isn't Alisae claiming it.

Also, I'm not saying for certain one way or another, as I'm trying to work out things myself. Karnos has bern a high scum read for me all day, and suddenly Alisae thinks he's town and a legit claim out of nowhere saves him.

Incidentally, why is he town again Alisae? The claim doesn't make him town at all.

Which again leads to me other issue... if he is scum, why would scum NK him? Are we suggesting we suddenly keep karnos alive to lylo on the basis of a single vengeful claim or something? As that's how we lose games people. I'm not getting why karnos is suddenly town, why BBT is suddenly scummy for that one post, nor am I even understanding my own reads as now, in my head, I have karnos as a super scummy read, and Alisae as a scum read on the basis he knows karnos is town... which negates my prior read of karnos entirely, and tgat legitimately confuses the fuck outta me, and 1am is not the time to be trying to work that one out.

So in all honesty, my intent for tomorrow is check over karnos and Alisae with a fine tooth comb and see if I can make sense of what the smeg happened.

[PranaDevil]

Right, I'm properly awake, and I'm going to start checking over things (via laptop in fact to make things better), starting with where karnos pointed out Jordan's contradiction in post #651

There was no contradiction upon actually checking it out. The first was a town read on Alisae, the second was not liking cases based off what scum would or wouldn't do. That's fine. There's a difference between a read and a case. I'll also however say that I kinda like stuff about whether scum are likely to do something. Sure it can be WIFOM, but if used in addition to other stuff it can be a great help.

Garmr is also correct about town can be hypocritical at times. Especially in long games, plus memory (or lack thereof) can be a thing. However it does depend on situation, so its always worth investigating... hell, everything's worth investigating.

karnos post #656 still hasn't been explained, and has gone straight under the radar since his claim.

One thing i want to put a stop to is the bullshit "shade" business.. fuck off with that crap. You should be questioning EVERYONE, not tunneling a single sodding person, so yes, it's 100% fine to make a case, or critique someone, or point out scummy shit, even if you are not voting for them. Shade is some new bullshit that's clearly cropped up in my time away from the site, and as far as I can tell it's a cracking device scum will be able to use to claim someone looks scummy without them actually being scummy. So literally every argument I see with "shade" in it is being disregarded as "I haven't a fucking clue what I'm on about and don't understand how to scum hunt" from here on in. If you aren't questioning reason behind posts, and pushing multiple people you're playing the game wrong. Ergo, it's perfectly fine to go "hey guys, this looks scummy as fuck, my main scum pick is X, but this post by Y needs more attention". Especially as we know there's more than a single scum in the first place, and, being human, we will make mistakes. Much as I'd love us to hit scum every lynch, the chances of it are minimal, so even a top scum read could be wrong, and our top town read could be wrong.

You know what, go for it.

I don't have the patience to try to break of a clique of fanatics.

Just make sure you lynch XnadrojX & Garmr, in that order, after me.

Anyway, after I die, XnadrojX will flip scum. Please lynch his obv partner Garmr tomorrow.

Yes, this is a serious claim.

These two do not match up, as AA points out above, karnos suggesting we lynch Jordan tomorrow, then claiming Jordan will be killed by him just shows it was a desperate claim.

Something else really doesn't match up either.

Nah, Karnos is a great lynch.

He is trying to scare away a potential hammer by saying he might shoot them.

You're not wrong. He is a great lynch.

Is he trying to scare away a potential hammer? Nah. I think we have more time to spend and we could be looking elsewhere, that's all.
Plus if we do decide to let him live, scum will just NK him.

That bit in bold, does not match up with:

Hold up, that last line I really, really do not like. If we let him live scum will NK him sounds like you know he's town and scum need him out of the way.

Okay, why wouldn't scum kill him?

And I believe the claim

.

You believe the claim... and feel karnos is a great lynch? These do not match, it's one or the other. he's either a great lynch for being scum, OR he's town, and thus would be a bad lynch. The two cannot co-exist.

I also really dislike Alisae's "intent to hammer" post, only to derail the entire thing so quickly, and then point out we have "15 days left, no need to lynch". Why the sudden change right there too?

I'm also going t totally contradict myself now I'm more awake and re-reading it, I honestly don't think Alisae derailed the karnos wagon through not wanting to lynch known town. I'm actually of the view Alisae is scum, but so is karnos.

These Prana votes are superrrrrr bad.

Please explain

Yep, I want explanation, I'm reading my stuff this morning and even I can understand that it reads a bit shitty. So please tell me why they are bad? (Well... Alisae's is but that's because he's scum)

LQ, why is shannon's post "shady" (urgh) as fuck? it's a perfectly fine post, though I will admit I no longer agree about scum "will" NK karnos, instead I kind of read it as directing the possible doc that way to open up any NK they want. If the doc protects the "vengeful" we have no protection elsewhere...

So if we don't end up lynching karnos (we still totally should, that's 100% the ideal lynch for the day), if there's a doc... don't sodding well go there, protect someone who may actually be town instead.

All Alone dives into scum spot 1 though by still not actually doing anything

the inability to do any scum hunting so far.

has made no attempt to scum hunt or solve the game. He has yet to post any reads or any analysis of his own.

Wow this is some really amazing analysis you guys! Try reading

anything at all I've posted after the UNVOTE post.

Deal. Up until this point you have (in order) :

Asked why you'd have no scum reads as scum

Said your tactics are more reactive (yet at this stage, done nothing)

Voted for me

Decided I was town and went for LQ, with no reasoning beyond "OMGUS"

And here we are... so I stand by my previous statement, you've done sod all.

-------------

So, as it stands, my opinion is thus:

karnos is scum, the vengeful claim is quite clearly bullshit as already pointed out by AA above, my vote stays on karnos as I want him lynched, like yesterday.

Alisae quite obviously wanted that wagon to dissipate and move elsewhere, I'll happily admit I cocked up royally (hey, I was at a gaming group when I read things first, then was knackered when I got home, I'll refrain from reading/posting when doing stuff or being tired in future, and you may all slap me if I deviate from this), and the push on Alisae, while a correct push, was the wrong reasoning. Alisae is scum along with karnos, and I'd be happy to lynch this way, but a karnos lynch is a huge preference as the wagon should not fall apart.

As it stands, I'm only willing to lynch one of these two right now, and I'll even throw in a special super sexy deal. If people are unsure if I'm scum or if karnos is scum if somehow he "is" a vengeful (he's not, and we all know this), then he should fire at me then you get rid of your other scum read as well.

That's literally how confident he'll flip scum I am, as he wont shoot me... he's not a vengeful, he's the scummiest scum that ever scummed.

[PranaDevil]

I can understand knowing someone's playstyle BT, but mind answering why town Alisae would say karnos is a great lynch while simultaneously calling him town?

[PranaDevil]

First, at L-3 when its 7 to lynch, you should absolutely feel pressure, that's over halfway to a lynch, that means you're see as super scummy, especially as you've been the number 1 wagon pretty much since the start. I also don't buy you not feeling pressure anyway, your arguments scream respoding to pressure.

Also, no, you didn't "repeat the lie" regarding Jordan an then have things change suddenly. You were ALREADY at L-1 when you "repeated the lie", Alisae then said he intended to hammer, and then you claimed.

There was no gap there, I just checked, its an outright lie.

Can we lynch the scumz nao plez?

[PranaDevil]

31 pages of content, we've tons to look back on, I'm fine with a hammer.

[PranaDevil]

31 pages of content, we've tons to look back on, I'm fine with a hammer.

What is this kangaroo court, someone who is already voting offering permission to hammer? This means nothing.

Is it bad I lolled at the kangaroo court bit?

Also, if someone not on the wagon was fine with a hammer... they would also be willing to hammer, so...

[PranaDevil]

karnos, please use the nn-existent venge-kill on me, I beg of you. Especially as I said pressure not "claim", blatant misrepping of what I said.

Gin, you definitely are nowhere near worth protecting for the doc. If anyone is reading you as solid town they're nuts, there's so many better places for that protection such as Garmr and shannon, plus it depends on karnos' flip too.

In saying that, why the statement that you are dead? Why should a karnos lynch mean you get NK'd?

[PranaDevil]

Then we have a good start for tomorrow, as you don't seem town.

Mind answering why you would be NK'd over anyone else still? "I'm obv. town" is not a legitimate answer either.

[PranaDevil]

At this stage I'm null reading you, so we'll have less of that "putting words in my mouth" stuff there please. Just because I don't town read you doesn't mean I scum read you. I just seriously dont get you as town, I just see you as "there".

Also, "everyone" is a stretch, I've seen a couple, that would be like me saying "everyone" views me as town because a few people have stated as much, what's more, that's meaningless as views can (and should) change as we go anyway.

Add in that we have no clue what scum are thinking, and who's to say they don't have a better angle to go? Or would want to cast doubt on an "obv town" slot? Any argument, especially before the first flip, about who scum will kill and why, is WIFOM. Add in that directing the doc like that merely opens up everyone else to being targeted (it would literally be saying, everyone else is a free kill), and it's not pro-town. It's not scummy, but it's not pro-town either.

Incidentally... what are your views on karnos and how he's going to flip? As in right this second, are you against the entire wagon, do you like the lynch?

[PranaDevil]

I don't need to debate the ins and outs of a claimed misrep, I was pointing out you said you didn't feel pressure on you at L-3, I stated you should do, I never stated that should be a claim.

I also pointed out that where you claimed you went from suggesting we lynch Jordan and Garmr tomorrow to you suddenly getting two votes and needing a claim was a fabrication. Meaning the reason for the lie was non-existent too.

And that, Gin, reads that you believe the claim. Is there any reason yu believe it beyond what appears to be "scum wouldn't say it"?

[PranaDevil]

So, scum wouldn't claim vengeful as it wouldn't derail their lynch... yet you were more than happy to aid in derailing the lynch by swiftly leaving it, thereby proving that, if scum were to give vengeful as a reason, it may actually result in people not lynching them...

Seems legit.

[PranaDevil]

Can anyone give me a reason why this guy's getting town read?

[PranaDevil]

vote: Alisae

<<< Fixed vote tag. >>>

[PranaDevil]

Ebwop

Vote: Alisae

[PranaDevil]

All that night phase time, and Alisae is trying to make out I'm scum for something I admitted I was reading wrong at the time, I'd have figured scum could have spent night phase actually looking at the thread...

I made my case on Alisae before, and Karnos' flip is further evidence Alisae is scum (for those that missed it... first, why aren't you reading properly? Second, Alisae was very very eager to get the wagon elsewhere after the "claim").

[PranaDevil]

What in the hell was that all about? I go to bed confident we have scum strung up, and wake up to seeing you all go sodding nuts and lynch LQ! What the hell?!

However, we at least gained some much needed information with that lynch, along with information from before.

First, I don't see Garmr doing that as scum, and definitely not to lynch a VT, scum gain nothing by being so heavy on a town lynch, especially one that could be directed back at them. Garmr is, at least in my mind, confirmed town from this point forward.

I'm also going to say, there was definitely scum on there, it would be unlikely for that wagon to get that much steam without at least one scum giving it a nudge forward at an opportune time, which brings me to the same person who should have been yesterday's lynch...

Alisae.

100%, may as well at this point be waving a great big flag saying "scum is here, lynch me please".

What's that? You want a case? Sure, here it is:

First, everything from Day 1, which has been done to death regarding the fact he blatantly attempted to derail the karnos wagon, but to sum up:

1 - Shows intent to hammer post #680

2 - Believes karnos' fake claim, yet still says karnos is a great lynch post #690 and post #700

3 - Uses the argument that there's much more time to "hunt" day 1 post #705

The intent to hammer doesn't match with there being more time to hunt, and the believing of the claim doesn't match with him being a "great lynch". Both of these are mutually exclusive from the other.

Alisae, talk about Prana and explain that read, I'm not letting you vote thinkbig

First thing to note: They scumread Karnos but they voted LQ.
Second thing to note: They scumread Karnos but then voted AA
Third thing to note: They finally voted Karnos.
Forth thing to note: They attack me because they think that I slipped that I knew Karnos was town when he clearly did not flip town. They were pushing a slip that wasn't a slip.
Fifth thing to note: They admit that that was a mistake but they still push me anyway.
Sixth thing to note: Where are they currently? Hiding under all the drama I'm making.

This is a huge pile of bullshit as well. It's quite clear Alisae is ignoring the entire reason i admitted a mistake, yet continued to push him, purely to make it seem like I'm in the wrong. Evidence? Provided.

Alisae quite obviously wanted that wagon to dissipate and move elsewhere, I'll happily admit I cocked up royally (hey, I was at a gaming group when I read things first, then was knackered when I got home, I'll refrain from reading/posting when doing stuff or being tired in future, and you may all slap me if I deviate from this), and the push on Alisae, while a correct push, was the wrong reasoning. Alisae is scum along with karnos, and I'd be happy to lynch this way, but a karnos lynch is a huge preference as the wagon should not fall apart.

That's snipped from the end of a longer post I made where I admitted the mistae I made the night prior due to being tired, and not reading it thoroughly.

We lynch Alisae today, no ifs or buts, I'm ot letting scum get away again.

Also, EBWOP, TB, I understand your reasoning regarding Garmr getting the lynch away from Alisae, and it is something to keep in mind, but what positives does scum Garmr get from making himself a viable lynch today by being so obvious and vocal with the lynch? I don't even mind rushed lynches at times. If the scum is obvious (Alisae), we should keep scum from finding out any additional information that would lead to finding out about a power role.

Speaking of which... All Alone's only actions D1 were to vote Alisae and vote LQ, which makes me wonder if he had already used one of his roles on Alisae, and was happy to lynch LQ with the evidence provided, and come back to Alisae on a later day. It wouldn't be the correct play, (always lynch known scum) but I can see an argument for how convincing the LQ lynch was.

vote: Alisae

[PranaDevil]

Looking at BBTs ISO, I could see an argument in them being scum, next to no discussion, no actual contribution to discussion. However two thing make me believe he's not scum. First, he was on karnos early, and had tons of time and options to get off that wagon and go elsewhere, especially with so little contributed, it wouldn't be hard for him to argue jumping to another wagon to get off a buddy, he didn't, therefore I don't believe BBT would be scum with karnos.

Second, the sudden hammer of LQ, I'd accept a quick hammer from scum in LyLo or MyLo, but not that early into day 2.

Put together, and I'm not feeling BBT as scum.

Garmr, you are solidly behind Alisae being town, and you've provided no reason as to why. Now I'm reading you as confirmed town at the moment, so it leads to the question... why? You say Alisae has done worse as town in the past, that's all fine and dandy, but why is he not scum now? These aren't situations where Alisae changed an opinion after re-looking over everything, or coming to a better conclusion (see: My change in stance regarding him believing karnos was obv. town when he was clearly getting away from the wagon), they are literal opposing views. Karnos is town, but is also a great lynch... this has not yet been explained. Preparing to hammer karnos, but wanting to use two more weeks of discussion... again, how does that prove they are town? It doesn't... but it's great evidence they are scum.

What doesn't help is you trying to keep the lynch off Alisae so much, yet never giving an explanation beyond "he's done it before". That's not a legitimate argument, and Alisae needs to be todays lynch without fail. We screwed up yesterday by lynching LQ after getting distracted from obv. scum, and I see no reason for us to do the same today. I'm all for looking at others and using the day phase t the best of our ability, but I want Alisae lynched, like yesterday.

[PranaDevil]

So... JOAT (with two cop type uses) gets NKd.

Gin claims JOAT, and has used 2 cop like roles within it.

And now Alisae is apparently a cop as well? Either that's some desperate scum, or this should never have made it past the moderators to being a normal anything.

[PranaDevil]

So Lexa is now scum because... she pointed out you lied... again...

Can we PLEASE lynch this scum?

[PranaDevil]

By not saying who I had a guilty on, I was hoping that whoever was scum would fakeclaim miller because they could have gotten scared that I potentially invested them.

Except scum wouldn't because they would wait until you stated who you went for... with 13 players it's likely there's more than two scum, and we already have one killed. I'd be shocked if any left went "I'm a miller" suddenly without knowing if any of the others were the one investigated.

Ergo... your claim makes zero sense from a town perspective, but it does make sense from a scum perspective, especially suddenly backtracking when you're told to back it up, as you realise if you get a lynch going off false information today, you are automatically tomorrow's lynch. Unfortunately you'd have been better sticking to the original plan, get someone lynched, then move forward with a plan tonight knowing you're gone tomorrow, because as it stands you're getting lynched today.

So... two down, one to go, after Alisae flips I want everyone checking back to get some solid reads, especially as if Gin's claim is correct (I have no reason to doubt it at this point) we have three confirmed town in a block, I'd be shocked if that doesn't reduce to two for tomorrow, (would be dumb scum who didn't fire that way, but it does mean any protective roles should pick one of those three to protect, just do not specify who's being protected in thread, keep scum guessing). Which means the last scum will be in the remaining pool of players.

[PranaDevil]

No mass claim for Christ's sake. Waiting to get at the computer to do a type up (had started yesterday then had to collapse due to tiredness), but checking on the phone, a mass claim would just gove scum better direction in future night phases. If you have solid information like Gin yesterday, go for it, otherwise stay quiet.

The exception is obviously Lexa who has some questions to be answering obviously.

[PranaDevil]

Scrapped my original writing, in my sleepless state even I couldn't work out what i was saying, and the Lexa stuff brings to light some other stuff.

First off, I'm happy to view Gin and TB as confirmed town. My reasoning for this is that Gin could only be lying if BBT was scum. Otherwise Gin would have been scum praying BBT wasn't a vig. As BBT was vanilla town, Gin is town for certain, which means TB is as well, so look at these guys only to see why they're being kept alive, as I'm confused.

That leaves:
Lexa, Myself, shannon, Pep and Garmr

This is where focus has to be for the remainder of the game.

This is where I want to do vote analysis of the lynches.

Day 1:

karnos

(scum)
Garmr,

XnadrojX

,

BlueBloodedToffee

, PranaDevil,

All Alone

, shannon,

ThinkBig

We know Jordan, BBT, AA and TB are town, which leaves:
Garmr, Myself, shannon

I'm going to be certain that someone was bussing to attempt to make sure they got town points, so one of those three is scum.

Day 2:

LQ

(town)
Garmr,

All Alone

,

Alisae

, shannon,

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

,

BlueBloodedToffee

We know AA, Alisae, Gin and BBT are town, which leaves:
Garmr, shannon

I'm not accepting there was no scum on this wagon either, which means combined with day 1, one of these two is scum, for certain. That wagon took off way too quick for scum not to be aiding it.

Day 3:

Alisae

(town)
PranaDevil,

BlueBloodedToffee

,

ThinkBig

, Lexa,

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

Again, known town are BBT, TB and Gin, leaving:
Myself, Lexa

Based on Gin's response from his check of Lexa, I'm more than happy to accept Lexa scum on this (I'm more than happy to accept that to anyone else this would be me wanting to lynch not-me, but Gin's investigation result should help confirm this)

So the most likely scum comes down to:

one of Garmr/shannon thanks to day 1 and 2
one of me/Lexa thanks to day 3

Lynch among this pool and we win.

Also, I'm not voting until Pep posts today, I don't want a lynch before he posts, so I refuse to place a vote until he does for fear of another quick lynch. But for all intents and purposes, based on the fact it's clearly between me and Lexa from day 3, and Gin's investigation, my vote is on Lexa. However for obvious reasons I could accept a lynch of shannon or Garmr. But to me, Lexa is more confirmed scum than the 50/50 chance of Garmr/shannon.

[PranaDevil]

I agree Pep-scum is a possibility, though at that point it doesn't ignore the fact scum were definitely on lynches day 1 and day 2, as one lynch I could somewhat accept at a push, but not normally this early, and at that point we would then be looking more at Myself, you (Garmr) and shannon, while ignoring Lexa who wasn't on either of the first two wagons. As I don't believe scum wouldn't bus their buddy, even if just the one of them. So one of us three must be scum.

That means if Pep is scum, Lexa likely isn't, which I don't feel matches up, and in fairness, I don't feel you do either as you've voted Lexa yourself. Meaning you would be of the opinion of a potential Lexa/Pep scum team? I still don't believe that in two lynches scum weren't on either, which wouldn't match up with Lexa/Pep as a team.

In fact... Pep scum would mean that at least one lynch happened without scum on it. Of us other four, day 1 had no Lexa, day 2 had no Lexa or myself, and day 3 had no shannon or Garmr. I still don't feel that fits. I'll accept it's not solid evidence that Pep can't be scum, but with karnos' actions it was easy for scum to bus him. In fact arguing for the three people on his wagon.

Garmr could have been bussing, then karnos imploded at which point it was impossible to get off before the wagon picked up steam.

Myself and shannon could be argued were hopping on when it picked up steam, despite us both heavily pushing him as well.

So I'd say all three of us could be on the wagon with possible scum motives behind it, the only knowledge all three of us have are our roles which we need to convince others of.

Day 2 was just Garmr and shannon that aren't flipped town or confirmed town at this stage, and that lynch was so quick I'm 100% scum was on it, so something is up there

Day 3 was myself and Lexa, and I again think scum were on here, so eliminating myself (solely for myself, not for others) means I deduce it must be Lexa. If any wagon had no scum on it I would argue it would be this one as Alisae was so scummy it would be easy for scum to avoid ad let the lynch happen naturally. However the recent Lexa stuff stops that I feel.

Speaking of which, I'd also like Garmr to explain the reasoning behind Roleblocker being a scum claim, I have a theory, but I want to see if it matches up with mine.

[PranaDevil]

Hold on... another JOAT claim, AND a roleblocker claim.... so that's three JOATs in the wild (well, 2 alive now)... I'm not buying all these claims. As i said before, another JOAT claim imbalances this game, and it's very easy on day 4 to say "yeah, I did these things and these people are still alive".

It doesn't change my statement though.

Scum is in shannon/Garmr
scum is in myself/Lexa

[PranaDevil]

I think if you believe Gin is scum with TB, why did you bodyguard him, and say you hoped scum killed him? Surely you should bodyguard elsewhere? Also how would you dying through bodyguard prove Gin was town then? Wouldn't it just show you died and not that Gin was protected in that scenario?

I'm happy with a Lexa/shannon team at this point

[PranaDevil]

Gin, did you even have a vote placed?

[PranaDevil]

I honestly can't answer that. Which gives me two options:

Lexa lied about being a roleblocker due to being caught out

Lexa is a town RB and had no intention of targetting someone who was seeming (and I still say, despite shannon's attempt at saying otherwise) town.

Though I stand by my vote count analysis, which I admit could lead to my lynch if people believe Lexa is telling the truth, though at tgat point do we go for shannon out of the shannon/garmr pair? I mean nobody is going to convince me scum wasn't on that day 2 wagon it wwent by so quick, and (for me at least) so out of left field.

[PranaDevil]

Side note, at this point, I don't believe Lexa and pep can both actually be scum, as there would be no way in hell scum bus D2 because they'd be rightly fucked, especially at day start.

Great theory, but I just checked the moment that happened. LQ had just been put at L-1, by yourself no less. I'd say it's a very safe bet that a Lexa-Pep scum team would have Lexa vote her scum mate if it was obvious the LQ lynch was happening anyway. (Especially if Pep has legitimately been MIA on the scum side) Keeps her off the mislynch while if Pep does end up lynched and flipping scum, it's great "see, I'm town" fodder.

My previous view still stands though, and I've seen and heard nothing to change my mind on where the scum is. It's me or Lexa, and shannon or Garmr. As soon as we hear from Pep, or his replacement, my vote will be on Lexa for obvious reasons (namely, if it's between me and Lexa, and I know I'm town... Lexa must be the scum of the two of us).

As an aside too, can we stop the crap posting regarding trying to get page tops and all that crap? Its bollocks that doesn't need to be there, and just clutters things up for everyone involved.

[PranaDevil]

Garmr has always been my strongest town read, so off that alone i'd say shannon seems more likely scum.

I also really do not like how she tried to make out Gin and TB were scum considering I even went over why that's not possible (BBT flipped vanilla, and being as Gin used his gunsmith on him, it would be way too risky to claim that as scum if it turned out BBT was a vig or something).

On the flip side, Garmr pushed heavily for LQ's lynch, wanted to lynch TB yesterday, and then threw a massive hissy fit that amounted to "I was on the karnos wagon, I lynched scum, I can't be scum", with a side of "if it wasn't for me karnos wouldn't have been lynched", which I feel is taking a lot of credit where it's not necessarily due, as lots of people were pushing karnos, and his seeming meltdown didn't help his cause either, if anything he lynched himself.

So, I favour shannon as a lynch over Garmr on that side of things.

Also shannon, I'd like to hear from you regarding my statement about the BBT/Gin stuff (namely Gin-scum having to do guesswork above)

[PranaDevil]

I also really do not like how she tried to make out Gin and TB were scum considering I even went over why that's not possible (BBT flipped vanilla, and being as Gin used his gunsmith on him, it would be way too risky to claim that as scum if it turned out BBT was a vig or something).

No shannon, this, or more specifically, the bit in brackets.

<<< Fixed quote tag...I think. >>>

[PranaDevil]

Gah, stupid phone.

[PranaDevil]

It's plausible, but why risk taking a buddy with him? Also, considering how confirmed town Gin and TB should be, is it not plausible that, should either of them not be tonight's scum target they will be obvious lynch targets tomorrow (I hate how now I've mentioned it, it will become WIFOM if they don't die, but I need to mention it in regards to the possibility of them lying about the claim, ergo it would have been a completely awful plan).

Plus as said before, neither were in danger of being a target, so Gin had no reason to reveal, especially as if someone had another role that could check if he was lying he'd be caught out in an instant. Add in that he THEN was able to deduce Lexa was not vanilla prior to her revealing as such... there's way too many things that point to Gin-town than Gin-scum. If he had been backed into a corner I could see him reaching suddenly, but there was no pressure at all, just the feeling that if he didn't announce findings he might not get a chance to. Seems town to me.

On the flip side, your claim came after I made my VCA post that pretty much solidifies yourself or Garmr as scum, and solidifies myself or Lexa as scum. Yet all your claim brings to the table is "I looked after these guys, honest", especially as you used your protective shots on the guy who, as I say, should be confirmed town for everyone, only to then make out he should be the lynch... it really, really doesn't smell right.

Also, in keeping with my "not voting until Pep gets here" stuff, my non-existent vote is still on Lexa, but at this point I would be happy to see a shannon lynch as well, though I still favour Lexa. Thus when Pep gets here my vote will go there (unless it would be a hammer... bollocks to a rushed day again, Pep needs to answer questions and such as well, just showing up wont help, and I won't count it as a done deal to allow a hammer).

[PranaDevil]

I don't think there's anything I can say to convince anyone that my claim is real, so I'm going to prodge from here on in, until someone decides to take it seriously and look at the other options.

((Additional crackpot theory: Prana knows that G+T's results and the VCA do exactly what she says, and points to her or lexa vs. me and garmr. But actually both she and lexa are scum. She's going to use lexa's flip to get town cred, then go after either of pep, gamr or me for the win. I've seen a similar strategy before))

For a start, you can't claim people aren't "taking it seriously" by not instantly believing your claim, as nobody has any reason to believe it, it's blatant AtE. Just because people have pointed out legitimate reasoning as to why you could easily be scum fake claiming, and essentially claiming that because people aren't listening to you and taking everything you say at face value is people not taking it seriously.

Secondly, I'm a he, male all up in here.

Thirdly... are you honestly suggesting LQ's quick lynch where even HE didn't get a chance to respond, or even claim, had no scum on it? At least with Alisae's there was time for him to respond, but LQ was strung up without him even knowing it. I didn't even know what had happened, I woke up and the thread was locked and LQ done in. There is no chance that was a total town wagon not a chance in hell. Because if me and Lexa are scum together, as you suggest, Day 2 had no scum on that wagon.

So my very blunt question is "do you believe Day 2's wagon had no scum on it?"

Oh no, if I'm scum, you go back into the game and investigate to see if my actions line up with your theory, not some ultimatum saying "lynch this because it's not me"

This, so much this, you don't make a crappy theory, ignore any and all points that it's obvious Gin is town because there are too many leaps of logic and crossed fingers for it to be anything else, and then go "welp done what I can"... no, either start looking at things to prove your case, or accept you were wrong and start looking for other stuff. Town should always be looking for scum, scum on the other hand can quite happily attempt to get by without actually hunting, and your Gin theory is very much on the second, and not the first, as you've given up hunting.

Also not a fan of shannon's vote on Lexa, to me it smells like a bus, as if it's obvious where the lynch is going to be, and so buses her partner while trying to stitch someone else up. Reason being, if Lexa is lynched and flips scum, the logical direction is to focus on shannon and Garmr, at that point we lynch them in succession and win. However if shannon can make a third player seem a possible lynch (namely me), there's a chance we'll lynch Garmr and myself instead of her, and thus game won for scum.

I'm pretty confident the VCA stuff covers all probabilities, and if not for the fact that it would be a risk for town because it would put us in LyLo two days running, I'd be happy to have me lynched to show that Lexa has to be scum from the D3 wagon, which leaves shannon/Garmr as the third scum.

[PranaDevil]

I am getting frustrated when you are calling my claim ATE because it's not, it's my actual role and actual night actions. There's nothing I can say to you that will show you that what I am saying is true, you are going to have to flip me to be sure. Even then, you've achieved nothing except killing a townie because I don't have investigative results.

You are talking about flipping me, gamr, and Lexa, and you if people don't trust you. That's a lot of flips to get through and I don't think we have that many lynches available. Certainly I can see no reason why scum would help us out by NKing any of those people now. (Why would scum not take out someone like TB or G+T instead if they are both town?) So I am asking you to take my claim at face value.

I jailkept TB because I thought something was up with him. But I couldn't tell whether it was a 'good' up or a 'bad' one, so I jailkept figuring it would either save him or stop him doing a NK.
In my Doc on G+T I told the mod that I had no idea what was going on any more. It was a gut decision after I found LQ lynched before getting to vote. I think my message to the mod even said something like 'Poor Lickety'
I bodyguarded G+T because at that point he had claimed results and had a shot left. I figured he would be targeted for the kill, but I would die instead. I thought my role would help people to guess what had happened. Obviously there were some flaws in my reasoning but saving what might have been conf town G+T was a good move still I think.

When G+T claimed I took his role seriously because it fits with my role. I can see how three JOATs in a game makes a theme, and also how his and my roles go together. Him investigating, me protecting him. But! Yes, I always look at whether people are fake claiming. I probably need to have a document where I work out the details and then abandon the theory if it's rubbish, instead of posting it in the thread and working it out on the fly. Nonetheless, posting in the thread is what I always do. If I'm right - and occasionally one of my crackpot ideas is actually not so crackpot - I want town to be able to consider it when I'm gone.

So. I think we've pretty much established that G+T is town, and therefore TB too. My next guess is Prana. He (sorry about She before) has this whole thing mapped out, and it looks a bit too convenient for me. He has positioned himself as an either/or choice with Lexa, who looks terrible based on G+T's result. If Lexa flips scum, town is going to look at either me or Gamr. If that's the choice then obviously I think Gamr. But I don't know that it *is* the choice. What about Prana himself? He hasn't claimed a role. What about Pep the Lurker?

Holy shit what if G+T is using his scum powers but claiming the results as town, and then Prana is interpreting those in a way that works for scum?

Also I want to point out that there have been two consecutive days of quick lynches where I haven't even got to post. Look at those wagons...

AtE is the bit where you started saying you had nothing to say as nobody was listening to you and nobody was being serious. It has nothing to do with any role or any potential night actions, and everything to do with you pretending to have a mini hissy fit.

You also say you took Gin's role seriously as his role fits with yours... but does that not ignore the fact AA's role clearly fit with yours as well? And therefore even by day 3 you could argue that Gin's role was a scum sided one, rather than waiting for today after you can comfortably say you used all your shots? Games aren't required to have protective roles after all.

I can see the argument about me having things all mapped out, but considering the likelihood that there was no scum on the LQ wagon (which I still don't buy), it pretty much is. And no, I haven't claimed a role, I have no intention of doing so either.

Considering how I could have powerlynched Lexa and ended the day but wanted Pep to talk in case he was scum should be your biggest clue that I'm not pushing a scum agenda...

Much as I know you're town (I say know, 99% certain at any rate), this doesn't really confirm much as, regardless of flip, screwing us out of a Pep-slot response would be scummy as hell at this point, meaning scum would be sure to avoid that hammer as we're not in a LyLo situation. It's not beneficial to essentially out yourself as scum at the moment because it would be an insta-lynch the next day. A negative for either side.

Just a thought: Does it make sense for town to have both a 1-shot JK and a full RB? A JK functions essentially as a roleblocker. If Lexa flips scum, I think Shannon might be town.

I disagree with Shannon's reasoning regarding Devil. I have a hard time seeing any scum motivation behind his post so.

I' with you to an extent with the Lexa/shannon reasoning, as I'm of the opinion one of them must be lying. However as I said above, there's no requirement for either to be in the game. Lexa claimed RB and was called out for it, essentially, not being a JOAT, which means shannon could easily make up a JOAT role that would fit.

Also, fucking hooray for Pep being replaced.

Questions for Titus:
What are your reads on each current player? (I accept read through may take time, on the flip side... two days of quick lynching will speed it up considerably, on the other hand, two tonnes of shit-posting may make it a slog)

What do you feel about my VCA? Do you agree/disagree with my theory that there must be scum between shannon/Garmr and myself/Lexa?

What are your thoughts on Lexa's RB claim, and shannon's JOAT claim?

What are your thoughts on shannon's Gin/TB = scum theory?

Who are your top two scum reads? And which of them do you propose should be lynched and why?

[PranaDevil]

Glad Gun can do the VCA stuff, can someone do me the honours of linking Titus to my VCA post? I'm stuck on mobile until Sunday night/Monday morning, and won't be able to give this the reading it needs as I'm with friends. Will be able to follow through reading just before sleep/after waking, but not much more.

[PranaDevil]

Yeah, not claiming, nass claim was abandoned as it never started. People claimed for good reasons (see: Gin worrying about dying and pretty much clearing two people, with BBT's death proving that). Then Lexa was told to claim by Alisae and gave a fake claim, which made no real sense to do in the first place, then Gin investigated her and found she wasn't vanilla (which thinking about it... more proof Gin is town surely?) So she had to re-claim. Not sure about if that means she's town or not though.

Shannon claimed JOAT-doc style after Lexa's RB claim was called out, with absolutely no pressure to do so.

There's been no mass claim, and you can get stuffed if you think I'm starting it.

Also, ignoring everything else to focus on VCA does prove something else, that you miss reasoning, as proven by asking for it, and then getting really bad results. Check interactions between me and Alisae for why he was an obvious lynch, and why he should have been the lynch D2, rather than LQ who was lynched in just a few hours (I went to sleep, woke up and he's gone).

Anyway, now we have content from the Pep slot, we can at least lynch Lexa, then the shannon/Garmr pairing gets dealt with, then victory.

vote: Lexa

[PranaDevil]

Shannon, Gin and TB are confirmed town at this stage, Gin showed BBT had no gun, and caught Lexa in a lie (regardless of reasoning behind it). How does scum-Gin do that? Fair enough you could argue that they rolecopped BBT, I'll give you that possibility, how do they get Lexa as well? What's more, doesn't scum Gin mean town Lexa for your argument? Both because you are suggesting a Gin/TB team, and because scum-Gin doesn't out scum-Lexa. Your entire case on Gin is full of holes and I seem to think of more everytime I have to point out how ridiculous it is.

I'll also point out I'm not defending him for you shannon, but more to make sure we don't piss this up the wall right now after two crappy lynches, one being LQ tgat was a shitty lynch regardless (not letting him respond? The fuck?) One being Alisae because he was terrible all round and despite flipping town, may as well have been playing for scum his play was that awful. Especially when Garmr's only defense of it is "he plays like this as town" when nobody knows how he plays as scum, meaning it's a non-starter for defense. Especially as it's a wifom defense anyway.

[PranaDevil]

Just realized the start of tgat could read wrong. I was directing the comment at shannon. There is no way she's confirmed town.

[PranaDevil]

Well spotted. Was in the middle of a long game of multiplayer MTG commander, and a mate had a long turn so checked to see what was posted. You'll find I already said I was busy this weekend but would at least try and read where possible to keep up to date.

Also, claim? Nope, lynch me if you fancy. Not claiming.

Either you think I'm scum, at which point have actual reasons for it, or you don't think I'm scum, in which case vote for scum.

We already know scum is in the pairings of:

Shannon/Garmr and Myself/Lexa.

I know I'm town, so I'm fine with lynching Lexa obviously, and shannon is more likely scum than Garmr.

Titus seems to not understand there's more to the game than VCA, thus I've decided to ignore them because they offer sweet feck all to the game beyond a lot of hot air and failure to read anything to understand why votes went where they did (which, if you do VCA without that, you are already losing the game).

Titus can read the thread, or accept they will be deemed to be as useful in that slot as Pep was, for town at least, if somehow they're scum (possible, but loosely so based on my previous theory), they're doing a cracking job of stuffing things up for town.

[PranaDevil]

First, top lols at the claim or be lynched stuff, only for people to vote while I'm sleeping... different continents people. I'm not skipping sleep to play a game, especially a huge dumbass bullshit one like this.

@Devil, can you at least say if you are a PR or not?

No big fun PR here.

Sorry for the double post

I think I know what Devil is trying to say by not claiming.

Yay.

Not so wild crack pot theory: Devil is a watcher/tracker/and or/follower which is why he isn't claiming. This explains AA's 1-shot fruit vendor role (a role that does basically nothing)

*facepalm*

You'll know what I'm doing. If not, try when sober.

Is it playing Mafia? Because if you're town you've done a damned shitty job of playing it thus far.

A basic concept that scum don't claim Vengeful because it's a promised lynch. The dude did a horrid play and quite honestly against his wincoin.

I remember that...

So, theory:

Before Titus decided to post a VCA thing that avoids anything in thread (seriously Gin, go back and re-read for fucks sake, you're following Titus like a lost puppy dog when we already had the game won) we were comfortably ready to lynch Lexa.

Shannon posted claiming JOAT, which doesn't work with RB in this set up for a start, not with two other claimed JOATs at least. So a minimum of one is lying.

Now Titus comes in and drags votes off Lexa onto me, noting that I had already made it clear scum is either me or Lexa, while simultaneously getting people to ignore that thinking (benefits of being on at the same time).

So, Titus gets me lynched, has saved Lexa, and then we seem to have Garmr as another easy mislynch lined up for tomorrow.

So this goes back on previous thinking, and by fuck am I still shocked for no scum to be on LQs wagon if it's the case, but my scum team is very comfortably Titus and Lexa.

Vote stays on Lexa, happy to lynch Titus for obvious reasons.

Feel free to deviate, but guarentee we lose at that point. Shouldn't have ever thought Garmr might be scum.

[PranaDevil]

Also considering that I've been town reading Prana, that leads to reason as to why I'm actually alive today and the same for Lexa as after the Alisae flip, heat was indeed being pressured on the Lexa slot.

What also changes is that once Titus joined, there has been a lot of actual discussion going on about reads instead of the quick lynching and you call my play abysmal.

Oh yeah, meant to comment on this. First bit is WIFOM, entirely possible for scum to go "you thought I was scum and this guy was town, why would scum keep you alive?", so yeah, means nothing.

Second bit... discussion about reads? Fuck off is there. Titus couldn't discuss reads, she's never done any actual reads, it's all VCA which, without reading the thread, is meaningless.

[PranaDevil]

@Garmr, Just how would I be conftown after mislynching you?
.

You would be near confirmed town if prana is scum not for mislynching me. The mislynch on me would be the byproduct of standing up for my beliefs.

So you're supposing PD will flip scum, yet I am not going to reassess? What about with my claim?

P.S. My shots are Tracker, Follower, and Motion Detector.

Your claim complicates things. I expected you to actually claim vanilla town. There's just so many joat claims it's not funny.

If, somehow, we have that many JOAT, I need to question the balancing that's going on on this site, as unless scum
Are ridiculously OP, then that's way too many JOATs to have in play.

Though I'll admit to being a bit lost now, the flaw when trying to read while busy with other gaming. So will have a proper think tonight/tomorrow.

[PranaDevil]

With Garmr's flip, I'm feeling confident about Lexa/Devil as a team

Not sure how this makes sense. I've been wanting Lexa lynched since the start of the day, and even when people have gone whacko with crap VCA that ignores literally the entire game (are we playing mafia, or is this some bullshit algebra type problem? Either way Titus has led you barking up the wrong tree).

1. shannon

3. TheRealGin-N-Tonic
5. Titus

6. Lexa

8. ThinkBig

13. PranaDevil

I'm 80% sure Shannon is town. He claim checks out and makes sense from a town perspective. However, my paranoia comes from her throwing shades at Gin. My other paranoia is that throughout the game, I've had a fairly strong town read on Devil. What to do about that?

Stop being led by the nut sack by Titus? She's ignored everything to do with the actual game in favour of just looking at VCA, actually play the game, and think about things.

In this position, is it best for us to lynch or no lynch for Titus to get some results?

In MyLo we No Lynch and let scum reduce our pool for us, then we can actually lynch tomorrow. We get more information as town (though we already know Gin or TB are being targeted by scum, but there's information in who they hit as long as we don't discuss that shite prior to it), and then we have less chance of a mislynch.

Thinkbig, it's important that you do the same until all the opinions of Lexa, Prana, and Shannon are given. I don't want you posting until you've received a prod/Input from all 3 have been given.

Hearing from everyone is a good move, and attempting to do anything at this stage without that is important, so yeah, lets hear from everyone first.

We shouldn't be voting today. It's mylo.

Scum will kill either me or ThinkBig. Me, if they fear my result. ThinkBig, if they want to eliminate conftown.

If any in the three suspects wish to discuss things, they can. But I think we're done here.

Erm... Gin isn't confirmed town now? That's an interesting thing to come to...

Also, top marks on the wifom as to why you wont die. The fact there are four claimed JOAT roles is all kinds of bullshit still, one of those roles is lying, and I believe Gin, so on that front, shannon or Titus are lying, and I really don't like how Titus got the lynch off Lexa (especially as now she's apparently all for Lexa being lynched (ignoring the MyLo stuff thanks to Garmr being a complete tit), but is more focused on me... so get people off Lexa and focused on me, and now accuse the very person who was already being pressured, now there's no pressure and attention in elsewhere, just in case they are lynched...)

So for today we No Lynch, tomorrow we can lynch Lexa, and I'm more than happy to get Titus lynched too considering the obvious derailing of the Lexa wagon despite somehow thinking Lexa is scum... you don't derail a wagon of someone you believe is scum.

Also, Garmr may have been a complete moron in his exit of the game (and I'm refusing to be a part of any game he's in, and will replace out instantly on any game he enters from on out, anything said during a game shouldn't be taken personally in the first place, as everyone is arguing from the position of their role, so to do what he did, and then attempt to ruin the entire game the way he did, just means he can easily do it again, I refuse to spend ages playing a game and have it ruined at the end just because he doesn't know how to play the game), however, some of his stuff was still right, ignoring his stupidity, and the LQ lynch, he seemed to be on the money a lot of the time, he was right with karnos, he was right with Alisae, and his stuff about how Titus was very hypocritical with her posts has been overlooked on the basis of just playing follow the leader, somehow because she's buddied up to people, and I couldn't give a toss if you like my play, my aim is to get town to win, and the legit only reason ANYONE outside of Titus is questioning me is my refusal to claim (I'll point out now, too, that I never once claimed, I made a light nod towards something, but fucked if I claimed), so if the only reason I'm suddenly suspect number one is because of Titus' posting, I advise you do some re-reading once we No Lynch so if I'm still around (be a shock if I wasn't, considering at the moment I'm mislynch number 1, 2 and 3 for scum, and that's game over for them) you actually have more to work off than a really shitty VCA that ignores a good 90% of the game.

[PranaDevil]

Oh Yeah

Vote: No Lynch

[PranaDevil]

So for today we No Lynch, tomorrow we can lynch Lexa, and I'm more than happy to get Titus lynched too considering the obvious derailing of the Lexa wagon despite somehow thinking Lexa is scum... you don't derail a wagon of someone you believe is scum.

Discuss this more if there is more that can be said about it

Without wanting to sound dismissive, I shall look properly at it tomorrow, it's literally hit midnight, and I've been gaming since Friday night (lots of Magic, and lots of Ankh Morpork take it out of you, and I have a game of the Doom boardgame to DM tomorrow night too), so as said before, I've not been giving this the attention it really needs, so rather than do a piss poor job of this tonight, I'd rather do so properly in the morning. A shit job doesn't help us after all.

Though I have noticed that almost everyone bar myself seems to be in America (or that timezone at least), so while at times it may seem like I'm not posting, that's because I'm sleeping, then when I wake up and post, no bugger is around, and by the time things go crazy with posting again, I'm asleep. In the past I would stay up stupid hours playing games online, these days... bollocks to it, I refuse to be tied to a computer constantly, and so I'll always favour real life stuff over gaming, so while I may not post much, I aim to make it decent where I can. So sorry when I post longish posts, but don't do two tons of back and forth, but considering I had a huge breakdown a few years back, and found that my mental health got a lot better when my life wasn't revolving around the computer, I think it better to not let myself get into that position again. Not aiming for AtE, but explaining why I won't be around every hour of the day.

@Devil - Why don't you believe Titus' claim? Also, what do you make of AA's fruit vendor role?

I have no clue what to make of the claim, what I "do" know is that the derailing of the Lexa wagon seemed to come out of left field. We pretty much had the game sewn up, we were easily going to win it seemed, with the only "uncertainty" being the Pep slot, then it gets filled and suddenly Lexa is ignored outright, only for late on her to be a sudden top suspect again, but "below" the previous obv. town player (your words here, not mine). It just seems like the only change has been Titus.

Fruit Vendor role... not sure, I'll agree it does work for a Watcher/Tracker, but only if someone really knows how to use it (I remember being around when it first was cropping up in PYP games... bloody great fun incidentally), otherwise it's a cracking role to just say to someone "hi, I'm town". Because no scum is getting Fruit Vendor in a normal. Thus it doesn't actively need another role to work with. Plus a one shot Fruit Vendor, on the off chance of being watched/tracked by another one shot ability... seems a bit far fetched. Not saying it's impossible, but that's late game "here, let me prove it for you" stuff, and if we're to assume Titus is town, then had Pep not been MIA all game, those shots would have been used and the late game means nothing.

Also if there is a CC, it should be done now.

No CC.

Also, for clarities sake, I claim if there's a legitimate reason to do so, this was not a legitimate reason to do so. What's more, Titus' reason does nothing for it. If Titus is scum, she could wait until I claim to decide what to claim, makes no odds there. Scum need to know what our roles are to know who to hit, as it stands the only person I can say is town, 100%, is myself. Much as I view TB and Gin and confirmed town, I'll happily state that's a 99% feeling there, nobody is every confirmed town unless, in said game, I have a role that confirms them as town (say I was cop and got an innocent result), otherwise I can use theory and probability to decide in my head who is town and who is scum, but the long and short of it is, I can be wrong (see: Alisae), and so can anyone else (see: LQ).

Therefore I'll always have a lean that means I don't reveal things that help the scum without an honest to god solid reason to do so. Titus making demands, when I not only have no actual knowledge of the slot, nor feel she's on town's side with the way she's doing it, lead me to being more adamant about not doing it.

Then, much as I believe (or believed... I've no fucking clue at the moment, and should give things a solid re-read) shannon was talking out of her ass in regards to Gin being scum, can I say for sure she wasn't on to something? Of course not. Even my posting was stating I was using probability, and the fact Gin would be unlikely to do that as scum as he could get caught out, but I could be wrong as well... so again, with that tiny thing nibbling at my mind, the "we win regardless" made me even more wary of it... Why do we win regardless? What IF shannon is onto something? Not necessarily a TB/Gin scum team, but even just Gin (thinking as I type here, so bear with me), he would know TB is town anyway, catches a buddy, and suddenly he uses his other stuff (in theory, just because he says he has X powers, doesn't mean he has, could be scum sided stuff but he gives town leaning roles in their place, who knows?) to give legitimate answer. So now, if that is correct, me claiming aids scum and leads us down the wrong way.

Ergo, a mass claim was a bloody terrible idea, and I refused to do it, and I stand by the fact I refused to do it, and will do the same in future games unless there is a good, solid, reason for doing so. There were no solid reasons here, just people blurting out their roles needlessly.

I still feel TB/Gin is likely town, because based on probability they shouldn't be scum.

By the same token, based on probability myself/Lexa should be one scum, and shannon/Garmr should have been the other (meaning shannon is the scum there), but now I'm questioning that thanks to the very fact Titus got us away from Lexa.

And christ TB, let people actually type their sodding posts.

[PranaDevil]

Prana, if you had to rate the two suspects and suppose I'm town, how would you rate them? I cannot believe the wall of non-commital of crap I got today. Basically, you have to lynch Lexa or shannon, who do you pick and why?

For a start, I'm not even attempting to "suppose you're town", you seem to be exceptionally good at getting people to rally around you while claiming you are obv. Town. You're not even obv. Playing. Read the thread for fucks sake. As of now I refuse to respond directly to you, but I will point out, for others, your scummy shit.

(Apologies, phone deleted too much on the below quote, it's shannon's not long after Titus' above)

Titus subs in to the game. Everyone is like OMG Titus, you'll save us through VCA! Which is great if Titus is town (even though I've seen her VCA be wrong as town) but terrible if she's scum. She starts out on her VCA exercise, and everyone follows along. If she makes a misstep, never mind, she hasn't read the thread, it's OK someone will tell her and she'll adjust.

Yep, that's been a rather huge problem. Though only TB and Gin were excited for her entry, and they are the two she buddied up to... coincidence?

Around the time where that all started, I'd claimed a JOAT role and Lexa had revised her claim. People are thinking hang on, no way are there three JOATs in play, surely Shannon is faking it. Surely Lexa is faking her claim, why not claim properly right at the start? Then Titus claims JOAT, and suddenly ... that's plausible? It's not rendering town completely OP to have her as JOAT #3, but it is to have me? And there's totally no way there could be four of us, so I must be lying? (Look back at when I claimed my role - why would I even fake claim there, as town or scum? Why not simply say nothing and continue to play? Now ask yourself the same question about Titus).

Don't forget the scummy as shit way she wanted a claim. Would be very easy to find out another town role while pretending I need to claim first, and do one of two things 1- "oh, you have no role, I'm this one that I made up, that conveniently has no use except to catch scum, and as people think I'm town, I can direct the game by simply lying"

2 - "oh, I was just pretending, I have no role" that Alisae did first.

Titus attempting (and failing, so goodo) to force a claim was scummy as shit, and was all based around it being safe to claim because she was obv. Town as well so we were "safe".

For my money, the team is Titus and Lexa.

I'm in agreement. I'm really really against the way she has come in and, with no reason for anyone to believe her, has attempted to become town leader. Literally zero reason to believe she's town. Yet the two people going "Pep could be scum" previously have decided the slot is obv. Town based on who is in the slot, rather than the actions, which are scummy as fuck.

Furthermore, if Gin is scum with Shannon, I'll get a result from what I do tonight.
If Gin is scum with Lexa, I don't get a result tonight.
You die both cases.

If Gin is scum with Devil, then I get a result tonight or die.
If Lexa is scum with Shannon tonight. I don't get a result.
If Devil is scum with Lexa. I don't get a result.

All universes suggest you die or I particularly don't have to care about it.

Again, directing town, and making statements that are made to control town for her purposes. At least I was being open and giving the options for me being scum for the reasons of overall interest. Titus just goes "these are the only factual possibilities because I say so, all follow me and dive out this 16 storey window".

Yeah, I'm voting Lexa today.

No, we're No Lynching today, and tomorrow we are not listening to any result Titus got and making our entire decision on the back of that, as scum can just go "caught this person lying, lynch them" and at this stage Laurel and bloody Hardy here will just go "righto captain" and scum don't even need to hammer as Gin and TB do it for them. (Well, assuming only one survives the other scum just hammers after, job done).

If we lynch wrong now, we lose instantly, scum get goven the game on a plate. At least with a no lynch we narrow some stuff down.

[PranaDevil]

All the non-titled quotes are the same shannon post, bloody phone posting after just waking up.

[PranaDevil]

I'd advocate a No Lynch if it meant scum would be forced to kill a slot people are contesting about but in this case, there is no contesting TB and I

This is a somewhat fair point, but I remind you of my post last night in regards to the fact I'm not sure about things right now, meaning even shannon's stuff regarding your slot makes some sense to me now, thus I'm not sure if there are any definitive confirmed town in my head at the moment.

Likely town? Sure, but enough to bank the entire game on it? I'm not so sure. (and I can understand that if, indeed, you are town, this seems like me just going back on my previous certain view that you are town, but considering everything... it worries me, and I hoe you can appreciate that if you are town).

I still need to go over Titus as a whole, but I strongly feel her entry and pushing has not been for town's purpose, and the fact she basically had two buddies before she even replaced in, who were willing to side with her throughout the VCA even to the point of overlooking any and all contradictions and errors in judgement, and it's of absolutely no shock to me that you two were obv. town for all that time, which is why it's very interesting that prior to Garmr's wobbly you guys were obv. town and were easily town and as a block you could easily win... and now we hit MyLo (with the option of No Lynch for LyLo), she suddenly questions even your slot and only has TB as confirmed town, yet uses a really piss poor argument of "even if TB isn't we have to go through Gin to get at him" to answer it. We're at a point where we can't afford a mislynch... which means if Gin and TB are lying we've lost anyway, and if we're being directed elsewhere as well, how would we ever know?

Thus I feel like Titus is creating confusion from a no lynch, set it up so that TB is the "only logical one to die as he's the only confirmed town" based on solely her wording, and then attempt to use her "result" to direct us to someone else... perhaps "catching" a lying Gin who is no longer "obv. town"? Or "catch" a Prana that was obv. town right up until her entry?

everything just smells of bullshit and deciet and it's only because she has two lapdogs that she seems to have got away with it. I really, really want everyone to question Titus' slot here. Don't bother asking questions, she clearly hasn't read the thread and so actually playing mafia isn't her strong suit, but read her posts and question the motives behind them, which is what I'm doing shortly.

[PranaDevil]

I'm fucking annoyed Pep's slot got to not play the whole fucking game and now we're here.

Agreed, had Pep actually not flaked, we may have something more to go on beyond Titus' posting, and may have got somewhere. The flaw is we can't auto-LAL because if we start doing that, scum learn that and just make sure they're active, and they can coast to victory as we make the game harder on ourselves. (Overall game wise I mean, in case someone tries diving on this post for "see, Prana knows that slot is town")

[PranaDevil]

So are you thinking shannon deliberately left off her partner on the basis of them lurking so we would (it turns out rightly) overlook it? Because that's all I'm seeing there. However considering the lack of Pep's posting, I can understand it would be easy to miss the slot, though shoving all slots into the middle and then moving them up/down is a better idea by all accounts.

[PranaDevil]

Lexa/Titus

I'm going through Titus' posts, as I said I would yesterday, to show first the inconsistency and second the fact she dragged everyone away from Lexa, claimed Lexa wasn't a suspect, but has afterwards kept Lexa in the "three that need lynching" so that if her buddy "is" hit, there's two more to get rid of (this is prior to Garmr's meltdown as I'm going through it), now we have one more lynch before we all go wrong, and if it seems people want Lexa lynched, Titus can get on board, choo choo her way to "see, I'm not scum" territory, and win the next day, and if Lexa isn't the lynch, and say it's myself, Titus insta-wins and has even directed town into it.

But I'm getting ahead of myself, the contradictions stand out a mile, especially when Titus admits to not even reading the thread, meaning her ENTIRE stance, according to her has come from VCA, which means the fact she bounces around so much is evidence she can't keep her story straight here. But you'll see that shortly.

[PranaDevil]

Apologies for huge wall-o-text, however the very vast majority is quotes, and some of my responses are short.

Ok, i need claims, if the scum lynch was a guilty.

Also, if someone colors and replaces all names in Mastina's VCA that would be awesome.

right out of the door "I want claims, gimme claims!"

What are your reads on each current player? (I accept read through may take time, on the flip side... two days of quick lynching will speed it up considerably, on the other hand, two tonnes of shit-posting may make it a slog)

I do not read

until I do my VCA barring extrem circumstances

.

Fixed that for you.

Alisae - 3 (PranaDevil, nydushermain, shannon)
XnadrojX - 2 (karnos, Alisae)
karnos - 2 (Garmr, XnadrojX)

Garmr and the three names on Alisae have major scumpoints to here, but there is little to zero chance that there are two scum on the Alisae wagon, as they'd likely jump onto X wagon

So that's major scum points to me, Gin (Nyd's replacement) and shannon... got it.

karnos - 4 (Garmr, XnadrojX, BlueBloodedToffee, TheRealGin-N-Tonic)[/color]
All Alone - 3 (Lexa, Alisae, LicketyQuickety)
LicketyQuickety - 3 (PranaDevil, shannon, ThinkBig)

Leaning town on PranaDevil, because of the fact scum are not jumping onto karnos, yet an LQ wagon seems to be appearing. Why not just join the AA wagon. This suggests that either a) scum are splitting their votes between AA and LQ and are unsure which they want to push or b) AA is doing what scum want and scum would rather wagon LQ because his reads are objectively better at this point. The names on LQ are the same names from Alisae before. There's a wierd alliance between PranaDevil and shannon that needs prodding to see if it is organic.

Ah, I'm suddenly town because scum "aren't" jumping on karnos... riiiight. Didn't Titus also say scum would attempt counter wagons?

karnos - 6 (Garmr, XnadrojX, BlueBloodedToffee, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, PranaDevil, ThinkBig)[/color]
All Alone - 2 (Lexa, LicketyQuickety)
ThinkBig - 2 (shannon, Alisae)
LicketyQuickety - 1 (All Alone)
XnadrojX - 1 (karnos)

Not Voting - 2 (Pepchoninga)

This ending suggests a mass bus after the scum failed to get a town wagon to counter. Although, if I'm candid, I'd suspect my slot for not even trying during this wagon. The lack of a counter = ineffective scum or lurker scum.

We have ineffective scum here and I know that because I am in the slot of lurker.

Oh yeah... contradiction number 1 because it fits an agenda. Big tick.

Interesting, both day 2 wagons on town, and little pressure on the backhalf of the wagon. Those wagons taking off makes horrible sense which suggests scum are promoting bad town with their bus cred.

Hindsight is always 20/20, easy to know who's town when they're dead and painted green.

I'm thinking more Shannon, PranaDevil as my top two myself at the moment but I need to organize my thoughts before coming down with where I'd like to focus.

No mention of Lexa, everyone off the Lexa train, we need to move the votes elsewhere, please do not pass go, do not collect £200.

Major hint that scum already have a mislynch in mind (or if you didn't know my slot's alignment) that I am scum or it's too early to determine lurkers

Where did this come from?

On day 1, when scum don't care to pressure a lurker, it's because they do not need to.

My slot wasn't pressured for shit.

Scum did not need to.

So because Titus has gained a couple of followers off the back of doing sweet fuck all, she uses her "obv. town" status to get them to ignore the fact she could strongly be scum thanks to this, and direct them away from it. It's easy to say scum don't need to pressure a lurker, but first, not everyone plays the game the same way, and second, if scum aren't in the lurker slot, they may be waiting on someone else to bring up the lurker stuff and follow in from it with the plan to be call someone else out on it later? Also, scum that consider VCA late game could easily avoid bussing a buddy by letting town do the work. Even my VCA stuff included the fact that scum were definitely on the karnos wagon... but flip that around to me being scum, and I could easily keep off that wagon and use that same argument, and oh look... we mislynch til the cows come home.

Basically, this Titus post was WIFOM and nothing else.

I'm being fucking stupid because I know scum slips come from town 90% of the time but could you reword it because it's bugging me seeing "that I am scum"

It just sounds really weird and makes me uncomfortable

No problem.

If scum don't pressure a lurker slot it's because either

a) Scum have a planned mislynch
b) It's a buddy
c) Scum don't need to (planned bus, town eating itself, etc)

Along with many other reasons, as stated above. Leading town to thinking there are only a couple of set answers is bad.

The only one I've come up with so far is that scum is in fact pressuring the lurker but that would mean I'm scum so I'm still puzzling.

Although admitting this makes me wonder why scum!you would say that

Yeah I haven't thought Lexa's scum for awhile.

Lexa isn't scum guys, stop voting her!

I'll point out, this is AFTER all VCA has been done. Titus has completely finished her VCA at this stage... her statement is that Lexa isn't scum.

Also, why is Lexa at L-1 when:

I was asked to unvote her earlier when I put her at L-1
We are all waiting to hear about Titus' VC, and Titus has indicated she thinks Lexa might not be scum
Gin, who you are all saying is conf town, is also starting to be a bit up in the air about Lexa

Town posting or Lexa buddy.

I do have a couple concerns on Gin but they are role related.

Oh, Lexa's scum...

I think Lexa is a better lynch because:
1. He lied about his role (I am a firm believer in lynching all liars, that is unless a doctor or cop claims VT in order to investigate and avoid the NK);
2. If she flips Mafia, Titus is essentially cleared

Right now her flip will tell us more than Devil.

Wrong.

You think Lexa has a bad claim. Devil isn't even claiming. If Lexa was forced into a bad claim, Devil should have no good claim either.

If Lexa is a roleblocker, regardless of alignment, we lynch scum. They can be publicly directed on who to block.

Devil's claim dodge on the allegation mass claim wasn't started is srmantic and garbage. We want it now and we want Devil to go first.

Devil death also clears up spots on wagon.

Lexa could be scum... vote Prana though!

You're Devil's buddy aren't you?

You unvote when I move momentum away from Lexa and try to speed rush her lynch when I try to get a Devil claim?

Her own statement at moving the lynch OFF Lexa, and now wanting to link someone we now KNOW was town with my slot...

After the claim tho Titus, I do need you to give reads based on day play.

You already have them. Devil and Garmr are the scums barring a jarring claim.

See?

He's a suspect in it. Lexa isn't really.

Ignore Lexa... do not vote for the Lexa, nothing to see here, move along please.

I see what you did there

No offence gin but you should be really thinking right now if you think titus has a guilty.


Because then claimed roles are

joat role cop varitions plus fruit vender
joat cop varitions
joat dr varitions
roleblocker
titus supposed role that makes gin want



It pretty much confirms that one of the power roles proposed is lying about their role or alignment. Town would not have this much power.

Balance whine when I haven't even claimed officially. Priceless.

5 town power roles isn't a problem at all guys, don't worry!

I still however, have Shannon as viable and Lexa as a long shot.

Lexa might be scum guys, just in case...

I tell you that's not his claim. Now, how could I know what PD was claiming without investigating him? Either, I saw a role hint (Highly unlikely, given I hadn't read and I am asking for claims), investigated him (Really, with a dead rolecop), I am scum (you already know this one is false), or I am the very role so it's highly unlikely PD will claim it. This is what you should have deduced by page 68, Post 1679.

So Titus knew what I was claiming... yet I never claimed anything, top marks there. Especially considering it's a role that TB had been talking about for a fair chunk of the game (In future TB, keep quiet about stuff like that, the ONLY people who need to try and work out who are what roles are scum, if you think you spot something, make a note of it, and use it for future reference if it's required, but never shout about it in thread, and never should about set up speculation). Titus can easily make out she has that type of role, and if I'm not that role (3 JOATs is already stupidly OP, let alone 4 and a roleblocker, so me not having that role is high anyway) the chance of faking catching someone is high when we're in LyLo or MyLo... and oh look, that would just happen to be the very next day after she claimed... imagine that.

That being said, if we suppose Garmr is town, if we find the scum other than Lexi today, we can force an inevitable endgame.

Lexi cannot block me. We know Lexi isn't an ascetic.

I track/follow Lexi. Lexi blocks someone other than me. Either scum must no kill (due to being blocked or framing), or we get some fucking clears.

"Lexa's scum now guys. I know I said she wasn't earlier, but she is."

Also, pay VERY close attention to that last line about Titus following Lexa.

If Garmr is scum (and at this point, I'm 99% confident that he is), the scum team should just resign

He's actually probably town.

Why's that?

If he is town, then the day ends. How do we play in tomorrow's MyLo?

You will be conftown. You get hammer.

Devil votes first, within 48 hours, or he gets rope.

I'm presuming I die there.

If you die instead of me, I out my result.

If I don't have a result, Lexa's scum.

"I know I only just said Lexa is scum and Garmr could be her buddy, but now we force Prana to vote first, even though I never mentioned him a minute ago".

Also, 48 hours is brilliant when some people aren't around all the time, and I'm clearly not around as regular as others, nice easy mislynch if I'm not able to be at a computer to properly check through everything and re-read (you know, how you actually play this game, by reading the sodding thread) in that short window of time. It also basically sends Gin and TB down a pre-set tunnel that IGNORES Titus entirely... which is amazingly interesting.

Here is my proposal:

Titus, you follow Lexa. Lexa roleblocks Devil. This is the only way I see confirming Lexa as a roleblocker.

We can easily confirm Lexa as a blocker. The thing is, I'd lose my result.

Your plan is ideal though.

Wait, wait, wait... what was that literally just two quotes above... Titus suggesting to follow Lexa, and now pretending it's not a good idea?

Why is that? If we take out shannon, we have:

1. shannon

3. TheRealGin-N-Tonic
5. Titus

6. Lexa

8. ThinkBig

13. PranaDevil

Shannon/Lexa/Devil

Just their negativity towards me. I can't put my finger on it. I feel better about Lexa than Shannon, but by role power, you are likely correct Lexa is scum. I just don't KNOW Lexa is scum.

We have a pool of 3 and three obvtowns.

We force them to vote on each other first. :nod:

"Get these guys to vote first, I'm obv. town so don't suspect me, we get them three to vote first, my buddy can easily vote where I want them to, and I can hammer for the win, it's easy!"

Fuck that noise. Titus is all over the place in her reads, literally EVERYONE outside of Gin and TB have been decided to be options, and neither Gin nor TB have actually looked into the fact they have been so heavily buddied it's ridiculous.

Titus has admitted to not reading the game...

Titus, have you read the thread yet?

Me read, puhleeze.

...as noted right there, and so can get away with not knowing certain things. But it also means her buddying of Gin and TB from the start of the VCA shite is telling. She saw two people who could be easily led by her, and used it to her advantage, and has placed herself in an "obv. town" position... nobody else did, she put herself there through leading people that chose not to question her motives.

I am strongly of the belief that Lexa/Titus are the scum team. It makes perfect sense to me for multiple reasons:

1 - Titus dragged everyone away from Lexa, that wagon stopped dead
2 - Attempted to make out Lexa wasn't a suspect
3 - The above failed, so Lexa became a suspect to stay town on the flip
4 - 4 JOATs is WAAAAAAY too OP, meaning one of Gin/shannon/Titus is lying.
5 - Roleblocker as a role only works for scum at this point
6 - Titus said she based her reasons for people being scum on VCA (see below), yet apparently that means everyone bar the two who were pretty much conf. town and herself, who wasn't on ANY wagon...

Her pairings seemed to jump between:

Prana/Lexa
Lexa/shannon
Garmr/Prana

Also, until Garmr self combusted, the Prana/Garmr pairing was the main one it seemed... so... ignore Lexa again at that point?

Her entire scum reads boiled down to "what can I get to seem plausible while buddying the confirmed town?"

Also, the quote for number 6:

Well at this point I believe there is only benefit to her claiming.

This. With TB being lock death tonight, what's the harm?

Other than not claiming can you tell me why prana is scum titus?

Vca.

Lexa/Titus scum team, I rest my case.

[PranaDevil]

Also @titus and Devil, can you show me a recent town/scum game?

Mate, I've been off site (hell, pretty much off the internet barring a phone) for over three years... unless you want Song Contest entries I can't show you a recent anything, and the old stuff even I can tell you I play different to how I did back then. I've changed a lot in the last three years thanks to not being online, so showing you old stuff would be a wasted effort.

[PranaDevil]

I believe Titus is scum, and that she was obv. getting people off the Lexa wagon. That means the karnos wagon had to be all town (we lose if we lynch wrong, so each of us needs to figure out who our top two scum reads are, or we lose for certain that also means figuring out who is town... and that leads to an all town karnos wagon, which I agree is unlikely, but if we assume the Pep slot is scum, then it's not that far fetched either as there was only one other scum, if Pep wasn't active, then scum would surely be worried about being left alone for the forseeable).

Also, while I believe Lexa is a lock for scum, I believed Alisae was a lock for scum D2 and D3, and look where that got us. I'd rather drop someone (which in all fairness means we should NL and then do said reads properly tomorrow, so scum don't know where to target), and have a smaller pool to work from. Yes that means "likely" losing TB or Gin, however as a whole everyone should be looking at everyone, it does nobody any favours to go down a set tunnel and take it as read that you are right without looking at others. I'd rather use night phase to do a full read of every player (especially if we NL now, I have this week free enough to dedicate a good few hours to re-reading each slot) and for us to all come back with fresh theories. Yes, all of us will waste time reading the slot that dies, and said slot will waste time doing any reading, but we can come in fresh with that information, and use that to re-assess everything.

If we lynch now, and we "are" wrong somehow, then we've already lost. Less options = less chance to fuck it up.

I also believe Titus is more likely scum than Lexa as I could see scum trying to buy extra support for "stopping" a town lynch, though I strongly believe both are definite scum.

My preference is NL, re-read, and then we reveal our reads at that point. NL is always the optimum play in a MyLo situation.

-------

Incidentally... I've noticed people confusing MyLo and LyLo, or using them interchangeably.

MyLo or "Mislynch and Lose" is when we have an even number of players, meaning if we lynch "wrong" we lose the game as scum kill at night means we return with an even number either side and we lose that way.

LyLo or "Lynch or Lose" is when we have an odd number and we know town outnumber scum by a single person, meaning if we don't lynch at all, we are guaranteed to lose.

Just something that has been bugging me.

[PranaDevil]

If he scum team decides to no kill, should we no lynch again?

Without discussion, yes.

[PranaDevil]

I have only seen Titus use the 'not reading' thing when she subs in to a game, not when she's in the game from the start. It seems like the sort of thing she'd keep doing even as town, because it's so useful as scum (as today is showing).

I actually read as scum and not as town. The strategy is not useful for scum, because there's a lack of knowledge and more ways to be caught.

I find it interesting how people keep deflecting from you.

Maybe because my play has:

a) been viewed as town posting a game, instead of talking bollocks and ignoring the actual game

b) been consistent, as opposed to bouncing around like a complete loon yet somehow using the exact same "VCA" to argue three entirely separate pairings that, if lynched wrong, lose us the game.

c) Not attempted to get everyone off a wagon viewed as scum

d) Not attempted to get everyone off a wagon "I" view as scum

It's got nothing to do with deflecting from me, and everything to do with the fact I'm actually hunting scum, and you have used the exact same numbers to make it fit whatever agenda you are trying to push.

Titus has not only refused to read the game, but the reason behind it (VCA) hasn't been shown to do anything as her reads have been constantly changing since said VCA. Proving, outright, she has zero intention of scum hunting, and that it's all about directing traffic to make sure she and her buddy are safe.

Which leads me to something else... prior to Garmr's inability to play the game, Titus wanted me and Garmr as the scum team. I'll point out that at this stage we had 2 days remaining, thus needing to get two mislynches for scum to win.

As soon as Garmr threw a Trump, we're back to considering Lexa... which has me questioning my Lexa read as I think about it. As why bus a buddy if you can win the game outright on a single fuck up from town? But if she goes back to confusing matters with Lexa, who was already the number one suspect until Titus showed up, we may lynch there and be wrong... which means scum win.

Basically, I don't trust Titus, at all. I'm untrusting of Lexa as well, but Titus herself as made me put that slot into question as I can't exactly tell if she was chainsawing me to buy credibility from Lexa (scum only need 2 town on side at the moment admittedly), so her gunning for my lynch helps there, r if she was chainsawing me to get people off her buddy in Lexa.

Either way, she definitely got everyone off Lexa's wagon, and onto someone people were calling obv. town immediately prior, and solely based on a VCA that cannot ever be trusted as she flip flops all over the place with her reads on it to suit the matter at hand (which is "back the conf. town pairing, and make everyone else seem scummy")

I'm actually much, much more interested in lynching Titus tomorrow as she's by far the scummiest person here.

My main issue with Lexa was more my own VCA, and with Titus bringing that into question, I'm happier lynching the person who is, as far as I'm concerned, known scum, in Titus.

Once we're back for Day 5 of course as I believe we've already voted for a NL.

[PranaDevil]

I have TRs on Lexa and Shannon anyway.

Derpy derpy derp derp

Up, down, sideways, these reads change more than I change my underwear.

Also...

Titus believes we have 4 JOATs and a roleblocker on the town side...

We lynch Titus tomorrow.

[PranaDevil]

Devil just wants me roped because I am correct. Notice the discredit focus.

At first it was Titus hasn't read, so she's no use. Now, he argues scum. Then, he'll lynch me. Opportunistic.

He didn't want to claim bc no clue.

Yes, that's exactly it... I didn't do an entire ISO of you where I pointed out you are inconsistent, make up who the scum team is on the fly, and go back and forth over whether Lexa is town or scum constantly...

No, I'm just opportunistic, clearly...

You. Are. Scum.

Titus. Is. Scum.

We. Lynch. Titus.

I have TRs on Lexa and Shannon anyway.

Derpy derpy derp derp

Up, down, sideways, these reads change more than I change my underwear.

Also...

Titus believes we have 4 JOATs and a roleblocker on the town side...

We lynch Titus tomorrow.

Now outright lying about my reads, and not caring to see the gamestate before trying to push a lylo lynch. He already knows it. He's scum and plans to vote early.

Oh no, you don't get to claim I'm lying about your reads. Your ISO, which I went into in depth, ALREADY shows your reads of Lexa are up and down like the springs on a hookers mattress. You are the one trying to discredit me.

I understand Devil's paranoia about Titus, however, I still have a town read on titus (80% chance Titus is town here) again for the reasons I mentioned regarding All Alone. Also, why does scum!Titus come in and ask whether or not the scum team has day chat? I don't think titus was faking dumb when she asked that.

I tend to think Devil is just pissed that he got caught despite everyone having a TR on him earlier.

Seriously? TB, you are so easily led it's ridiculous. There is no world in which Titus can have her reads change that much, based on VCA, and be town.

[PranaDevil]

I'm not reading all that banter. As soon as I'm no longer buddies with Titus she says she's going to use a shot on me. Hilarious, you're running out of people to try and sneak a lunch through

I'll take a ham sandwich.

In all seriousness though, thank fuck people are starting to see through her. TB honest to god worries me as, if you are town (which I still believe) he HAS to be town, and yet he's just happy being led along by Titus despite the fact nothing of what she says sticks... it's like the ultimate OMGUS, "you don't listen to what I'm saying, you must be scum! VCA proves it! It proves these other people are all scum as well because I said that earlier, but you're scum!"

In fact...

We've had:

Prana/Lexa (but Lexa's town...)
Lexa/shannon (yet now both are town...)
Prana/Garmr (Garmr was proven town, yet he was only accused because he was pointing out Titus' inconsistencies)
and now
Gin/Prana

And yet I'm somehow lying about Titus' reads constantly changing?

[PranaDevil]

I am also nonplussed by Lexa not being here.

Yes, I agree, everyone should be in the same timezone, and anyone who isn't must be the scumz!

[PranaDevil]

Also, are we about to see another change and Titus decide Lexa is scum for about the 5th time since the start of the weekend? I mean it IS getting warm in here... so if we attach a fan to Titus' reads we should get one hell of a breeze as they rotate through the players another 50 times before I next go to sleep.

[PranaDevil]

I think the scumteam was thrown into a panic when I revealed I had all my shots left. That's when Lexa reemerges from nowhere. Does that have to be the solution? No. I am also nonplussed by Lexa not being here.

^^This

And also Devil immediately started throwing shades at you in order to get you lynched before hand. In this setup, why the fuck would scum claim something like what you claimed??

Same reason scum do anything, get a victory.

I also explained this, Titus gets a mislynch today, we hit night, we come back in LyLo, Titus goes "I caught X", and boom, town loses.

It took me all of 0.5 Nanoseconds to come up with that strategy, and I'm an idiot.

I am also nonplussed by Lexa not being here.

Yes, I agree, everyone should be in the same timezone, and anyone who isn't must be the scumz!

^Even more shades

Listen, we don't like in Ankh Morpork, there are no such things as shades.

Also, Titus is scum, stop being an idiot TB, she literally just said the scum team is me and Gin for fuck's sake.

read the bloody ISO and stop taking Titus' word for everything. You are allowed to play your own game, you don't need to stick your nose up someone else's ass and let them lead the way, which is exactly what you did with Gin as soon as he said you were town, and it's exactly what you are now doing with Titus, because she called you town.

Go read the thread back, go read my full post on Titus and tell me where I went wrong, that's not even a request, that's me telling you, outright, to go read that post and tell me where I'm wrong in how Titus has flip flopped more than a pair of flip flops.

[PranaDevil]

So... you track/watch/whatever the guy with nothing left to do... when you could have checked what Lexa was doing knowing (if shes honest at least) that she should have an action in blocking me, to at least confirm she did do so? At least that's the claim...

I have some theories as to why Titus didn't use the action on Lexa, but they all end up meaning Titus is scum in some form. My main theory being that pretending to get a "no result" is a great way to do one of two things:

1 - "I was blocked, therefore Lexa is scum who blocked me", and we're back onto Lexa being scum for the 5 billionth time, and we have a mislynch of Lexa

2 - "I was blocked, therefore Lexa is scum who blocked me", and we lynch scum-Lexa and Titus buys town points for the next day.

Either situation means Titus scum wins.

All I know is, thanks to yesterday's insinuation that everyone who is currently alive has to be the scum team because the VCA tells us so, Titus has to be scum as she clearly was more interested in getting "a" lynch, rather than the "correct" lynch.

Gin, is it not possible both are lying to some extent? Lexa might not be a roleblocker, and Titus may not be a Watcher. Or Lexa may be a roleblocker, while Titus is something else. I'm not ruling out either one or both being scum, but my money is solidly on Titus-scum.

[PranaDevil]

I've been townreading Gin since he claimed pretty much, though BBT's flip helped that nicely. I did waver through shannon's stuff, but the probability of Gin being scum is minimal. This leaves:

Titus
Lexa
shannon

two of these are scum (and yes, I accept for other town my name would be there). My order from scum to town on these three goes:

Titus
Lexa
shannon

I believe Titus is scum either way, Lexa is most likely the partner, but shannon should be looked at as well to be certain.

Devil, I presume you're hard townreading Gin and scumreading Lexa correct?

THere's a method to my madness.

The real question is how often does Lexa flip between town and scum in this method? Are we going to try and beat yesterday's record of about 5 changes of view in about as many actual days?

[PranaDevil]

Oh do tell... which pairing is it this time? Oh I know!

Garmr/Devil right? I knew it must be him

or maybe Devil/Gin?

or how about shannon/Lexa? Did that one come up before, I can't remember... i know we went through everybody at some stage.

Oh nope, Lexa's back to being scum again...

I'll keep a tally on how often we jump around with your read on Lexa today. That's 1.

[PranaDevil]

Titus' play

last night

doesn't make sense

to me

.

FTFY

[PranaDevil]

Stupid computer just ate my post.

First, we lynch Lexa and it turns out she's town, we lose already. We lynch Lexa and she's scum as I believe, then Titus is already prepping for that buying her town credit as the claim that Lexa dying means we "auto solve" the game is bull. Titus merely needs to go "oh yeah, Devil did the kill" and can do nothing the rest of the day, doesn't matter who dies, just can claim I did it to attempt to win. It doesn't solve anything unless people believe your role.. I don't believe your role, so even if Lexa is scum, and we go into the final day, it makes no odds as to which group of three is left, if I'm in that group, I would not instantly listen to Titus especially as the previous day was spent with making out everyone currently alive now, that isn't Titus, is scum based on VCA. Which just proves yesterday's VCA was all for show.

Also...

Doctors and roleblockers don't get PMs with any sort of result. So that's technically a rush to clear yourself.

I DONT UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS TITUS.

You claimed that Shannon targeting you would have known you were ascetic. That's not the case. Doctors do not receive feedback. If you died, she'd know her protection failed. But since you're living, Shannon knows nothing.

This is correct, I haven't received any result from the mod after using my actions, other than 'action received' type things.

Titus' play last night doesn't make sense to me.

If I tracked Lexa,

and was obvious about it,

The result I'd be guaranteed is Lexa visited Devil. Lexa would just then kill ThinkBig and we'd get a false clear on Lexa.

By targeting Gin, we get a 1 v 1 and Gin is being more obvious town in that type of situation given Lexa automatically believed me.

If you track Lexa, and she RB'd me AND killed TB, you would know both results... not just the one. There would be no false clear if Lexa submitted the kill. I'm not even sure how you got that.

Also, how is targetting Gin giving a 1 v 1, there's two scum alive, it only needs one to submit the kill, at which point you targetting Gin only matters in a Gin/Devil team if Lexa actually targeted me, I've no clue if she did or not.

All I know is Titus is scum, I just need to work out if Lexa is a partner Titus is bussing, or town that Titus wants to use to get the easy win. The flip flopping yesterday makes it hard to judge.

[PranaDevil]

Question: do you guys want VCs every page when less than a day has gone by and they're saying the same thing or not?

'Cause I can do that, but if not, I'm only going to give a VC once a day OR once a page if there's votes laid down/changes in a VC. (Which there currently aren't, so.)

Seems silly to have VCs if nothing has happened.

^^ So you've cleared me then Titus? I'm not mentioned in that last sentence (of previous post)

Yes.

1 v 1 of Gin/Lexa, strongly leaning Lexa.
1 v 1 of Devil/you, and Devil's pretty just fucking scum in my VCA.

So yeah, you're pretty clear.

I get two things from this:

1 - TB is gone, Titus needs to buy a new buddy
2 - Apparently the VCA has decided I'm scum for this portion of today... who knows how long that will remain? Buggered if I know but it changed almost hourly yesterday, so tune in later and see what lies we've come up with next.

[PranaDevil]

Actually, in fairness, Titus only failed to include me in the Lexa/shannon scum team.

I however was paired with Gin, Lexa and Garmr.

Apparently Titus really, desperately, wants me lynched, but she can't work out whether she wants to bus a buddy or drag town down as well. All we do know is the VCA was terrible.

Hey, broken records called. They want your posts back.

If the shoe fits...

Also wouldn't be so easy to mock if you had actually done some modicum of scum hunting, instead of hiding behind "VCA tells all", only to have it fail to say anything beyond "I'm not the scumz". In fact... it's worth everyone noting that it's very easy to try and use VCA to point at people and call them scum when your slot is never going to be involved in that VCA. If you know you can clear yourself with VCA and nothing else... well, why would you try anything else?

Though it would have made much more sense, and worked better, had you focused on a set pairing, and not tried to cause confusion among literally everyone, to try and make out everyone else could be scum, including the guy we had already, as a group, removed from the pool of potential scum. I literally see no reason why town would want to take someone who was basically confirmed town, and try and make out that they're part of the scum team. I can, however, see plenty of reasons scum would want to.. blocks of confirmed town are dangerous.

[PranaDevil]

Devil, you have an account for 2010. My VCA is kinda famous for catching scum. I find it funny that you keep trying to discredit it.

Why don't you just vote me and confirm Shannon right now for everyone?

Oh wait, that boxes the scumteam in if you get lynched doesn't it?

A - I've been offsite for three years. You'd know this if you did any reading whatsoever.

B - You discredited your VCA by having four different pairings for who the scum could be, that included EVERYONE who is currently alive and isn't you. How do you even attempt to claim that's a "good" VCA if you have no clue who it should be?

C - How does my vote on you confirm anything? If you are scum with shannon, then shannon isn't likely to stick a second vote down, and if she's town, she isn't likely to stick a vote down randomly either... it does nothing for nobody.

D - You keep calling me scum, but give no reason beyond VCA... the same VCA that led to you saying Gin was my partner, Garmr was my partner, Lexa was my partner, and that Lexa and shannon were partners... I'm going back to my stance yesterday. If you are unable to bring anything to the table, you aren't worth my time talking to.

[PranaDevil]

I know you're good at VCA, but given I don't know your alignment, I can't trust it.

I have Lexa's blatant scumclaim here where she supposed my result is honest.

Do you? i just checked her posts, it's not there. Quote it. Now.

Devil's outright discrediting of me, but when I call him to vote, he runs off like a chicken between his legs.

15 minutes =/= running off. Especially at 12:30 in the sodding morning.

What have Lexa and Devil done? Right, that's what I thought.

First, pot, meet kettle.

Second, I've been scum hunting. My case on Alisae, while wrong in hindsight, was made up of legitimate scum hunting. My reasoning for voting day one was legitimate scum hunting. To say "What has Devil done?" when you have NOT READ THE THREAD, is all kinds of scummy bullshit. You don't get to say people haven't done anything when you not only haven't tried reading the thread, but have done less than nothing yourself.

[PranaDevil]

C, you're really going to postulate I'm scum with Shannon just to excuse you not voting me?

I already said the two scum are amongst yourself, Lexa and shannon, and while I know you are scum. I have to work out whether you are bussing Lexa or are trying to get town lynched there. You'd know this if you kept up.

and I love you pretend I haven't been riding your ass for days and my VCA wasn't done stream of consciousness to let others follow.

Oh right, of course... hold on a moment.

Alisae - 5 (PranaDevil, BlueBloodedToffee, ThinkBig, Lexa, TheRealGin-N-Tonic)[/color]
Lexa - 1 (Alisae)

What happened here? Did Prana fake a guilty on Alisae?

The FINAL post of the VCA stuff.

I'm thinking more Shannon, PranaDevil as my top two myself at the moment but I need to organize my thoughts before coming down with where I'd like to focus.

The FIRST Titus pairing

Also, why is Lexa at L-1 when:

I was asked to unvote her earlier when I put her at L-1
We are all waiting to hear about Titus' VC, and Titus has indicated she thinks Lexa might not be scum
Gin, who you are all saying is conf town, is also starting to be a bit up in the air about Lexa

Town posting or Lexa buddy.

I do have a couple concerns on Gin but they are role related.

The SECOND Titus pairing... notice the post numbers come after the VCA stuff? notice how the team is Lexa/shannon at this point? Hmmm

I think Lexa is a better lynch because:
1. He lied about his role (I am a firm believer in lynching all liars, that is unless a doctor or cop claims VT in order to investigate and avoid the NK);

So you're okay with lying if you think it's justified. Do you not think I was justified given my reasoning?

Given all we've discussed I think the best option is to

lynch shannon

, her claim being a functional cc to my claim makes

it very unlikely we both are town

I can agree on this post. only difference is i think you are both scum.

This is opportunistic as fuck.

We have a dead rolecop.

Gin claimed a cop type role.

ThinkBig has postulated a follower.

This just lets you lynch all the PRs. Chill.

You yourself said the possibility

Also, why is Lexa at L-1 when:

I was asked to unvote her earlier when I put her at L-1
We are all waiting to hear about Titus' VC, and Titus has indicated she thinks Lexa might not be scum
Gin, who you are all saying is conf town, is also starting to be a bit up in the air about Lexa

Town posting or

Lexa buddy.

I do have a couple concerns on Gin but they are role related.

I already declared I think both are scum.

Even if you think that, having Lexa at l minus 1 before finishing massclaim is dumb and you know it.

If you're wrong, we enter lylo with at least 1 unclaimed slot.

I honestly don't care if prana claims or not.

Also shame on you, you have been on this site longer than me so you should know by now rebellious doesn't = scum.

You're Devil's buddy aren't you?

You unvote when I move momentum away from Lexa and try to speed rush her lynch when I try to get a Devil claim?

And the THIRD change, with Lexa and shannon out entirely, replaced with me and Garmr.

Don't go bullshitting about VCA, the evidence is cut and dry that you're lying, and since being caught out are just trying to make out I was "always" on it, and hope people believe you.

You'd earn good money working for The Daily Express or The Daily Mail though, they aren't interested in facts either.

-------

And Gin... For the love of all that is holy, I'm male... I know I'm a fat bastard and have mreasts (cheers Nerdcubed), but that's no reason to call me female.

[PranaDevil]

IT'S THE AVATAR AND IT'S CUTE AND CUDDLY.

Now that I'll give you.

[PranaDevil]

Just a heads up, I'm ill as all fuck, so don't expect much from me for the near future. Should just be a day or so, but rather warn you guys than vanish without a word.

[PranaDevil]

If we lynch you, then tomorrow we go to night with 4 alive.

If you kill me, scum get confirmed in Gin/Lexa with Shannon having hammer. Not great odds.
If you kill Shannon, then I track Lexa. The situation becomes me/Lexa v Gin, and I just beat you in a 1 v 1 while calling the scumteam. Not good odds.
If you kill Gin, then I track Lexa. Situation is the same, as the second, but different hammerer.

Why aren't the odds of me choosing between Gin and Lexa good? Just FYI, whoever is doing whatever, I will 100% hammer Lexa if we're in 3P together with Gin.

Are you tracking Lexa no matter what?

I know you're good at VCA, but given I don't know your alignment, I can't trust it.

+1

Regarding hammering Lexa, Surely if there's a 3P situation, and Gin is involved, anyone who votes for Gin is an imbecile. (Also, the remaining scum wouldn't leave confirmed town alive, so if we hit scum today we already know Gin isn't surviving to the next day. Regardless of who the scums are, Titus created enough uncertainty in the previous day phase that nobody really trusts each other, because, as I say everyone was listed as being scum at some point or other.

Thus, a Lexa/shannon/Gin situation would not happen. What is more likely is a Prana/Lexa/shannon situation as we lynch obv scum Titus today, and scum will leave me alive due to hoping they can get me to lynch the other one out of the two. However regardless I'm 100% certain I'll hit scum, as I did last time I was in a 3 way LyLo.

If Gin tries reading back some of my stuff he "should" get what I'm on about.

Also shannon, are you suddenly saying you believe Titus' stuff now? Despite her very obvious attempt to buddy you at day start? Please don't do what TB and Gin did for an age yesterday and listen to someone who suddenly believes you're town.

Unless you're scum of course, in which case go right on, because it'll make tomorrow much easier for everyone involved one Titus flips scum.

Also, considering the fact I feel like my guts are falling out of me, I'll vote now, but I don't expect a double scum hammer as Titus is one of them (which is exactly why I wasn't scared of a double scum hammer in my direction, hard to do so when one is already on the wagon).

Vote: Titus

[PranaDevil]

No. It is 100% your pride.

You have fucked up many different dayphases until I got here and pointed out Devil scum. Devil is portraying my doubt as to his partner as to doubt on the gamestate. His posts are more about discrediting me and buddying town. How much effort has he put into hunting? Zero. He's just shading my VCA.

You know why he comes off cleaerer? He's had two days to plan and buddy you, not to mention all the game days.

You also need to resolve why you failed before I got here. My slot was inactive but you failed every day after d1. He never pushed my slot until I caught him.

You mean like when you came up with your SECOND scum team of Lexa/shannon... which was AFTER your VCA?

No Titus, that's not throwing doubt as to my partner. In fact, the only reason you began tunneling me is because I didn't want to play your little game regarding claiming, you latched onto that because it gave you something you believed was tangible. That's the only reason you pushed me since then, not your VCA as your Lexa/shannon pairing proves quite comfortably.

You discredited your VCA by not sticking with any one player from it, you never showed any conclusions from it, you've not used it in any form beyond making claims it works, and you're pissed that everyone bought into it early on, but have since realized it was simply a way to hide from actually trying to scum hunt.

Want to know why I "come off clearer"? I'm not scum.

[PranaDevil]

I showed each and every thought process from it and then reached a conclusion you were scum as fuck.

Why did you claim Lexa and shannon were a scum team after that then?

I forced a claim from you, knowing I'd have my results to check you.

No, no you didn't, I'll repeat this for the hard of reading. I HAVE NOT CLAIMED.

I knew what your claim wouldn't be with ThinkBig, because I planned to use my night results to prove you were scum.

You can't "prove" anything as nobody believes your claim, you can literally claim that ANYONE is scum with that role when all the JOAT roles have been used up, it's not like Gin can check to see if you're town, or check to see if you're lying about having a role. Thus you can make shit up and expect others to blindly follow. The fact they haven't is what's driving you nuts, you figured it was an easy scum win, and you failed.

You have only whined and Gin likes it because he can then tell himself that no town player would ever suspect his holiness and then blame me for not playing like he wants. He wants a solution where he's blameless and doesn't have to check his work. I know it. You know it. You're playing to it.

No whining, I'll admit I've been sarcastic as fuck because... well your changing on how scummy Lexa is deserves every bit of the sarcasm it got. As far as not having to check their work goes... the words pot and kettle come to mind.

You still are not scumhunting. Nothing in this post is anything beyond Titus is the bad girl.

Barring the fact I caught you out with the Lexa/shannon pairing? The fact your opinion on Lexa changed constantly yesterday? The fact that you are so obv. scum it's ridiculous and tomorrow we can sort out who your partner is in the easiest end day imaginable?

You have put zero attempt to scumhunt anyone but me and are shading random people to appear like you are.

No not random. You have been so indecisive with Lexa it's ridiculous, and I'm certain Gin is town, that means once you've gone it's between Lexa and shannon, and I've got a guarenteed way of winning tomorrow regardless of who of them is scum, and I "think" Gin understands my reasoning there

I voted Devil because it practically solves the game for you if you actually get over yourself.

False, you are making out that because scum didn't double hammer me super quick, I must therefore be scum. However the same is true in the reverse, scum cannot double hammer me if scum is, already, on the wagon. So no, you don't get to use terrible logic to pretend you aren't scum.

You came along and made me think Garmr Prana and town imploded after that with a mod kill and we are here. Your VCA has already failed to catch scum as you thought Garmr. You've only made shit go downhill.

No. I had Garmr as an idiot town. You're inferring I had Garmr as scum. When he was modkilled, I townread him.

You had Garmr as my scum partner when he flipped his shit, it was only AFTER he quoted his role PM that you said he was town... because of course he was town after he quoted that, even a blind monkey could see that.

Why do you insist on not keeping your lies straight?

[PranaDevil]

shannon, Lexa, whichever of you isn't scum with Titus, mind hammering so we can move on? Plus it'll make tomorrow even easier if someone's not bussing.

Also, I like the last minute AtE going on from Titus... really a stellar performance, but I'm afraid it fails as Garmr clearly has the victory for that one all sewn up with his double header and self implosion.

[PranaDevil]

I voted Devil because it practically solves the game for you if you actually get over yourself.

False, you are making out that because scum didn't double hammer me super quick, I must therefore be scum. However the same is true in the reverse, scum cannot double hammer me if scum is, already, on the wagon. So no, you don't get to use terrible logic to pretend you aren't scum.

Incorrect.

If Gin actually sees that I'm town. He knows my result is honest. Thus, Lexa must be scum.
If Gin actually sees that I'm town. He knows that scum didn't double hammer because Lexa is away from keyboard. Thus, you have to be scum.

If Gin sees I'm town, the answer must be Lexa/Devil.

It really is that simple, but if Gin refuses to assess things and come in with that PoV, the game was over and I wouldn't want to waste days of my time.

So in reality, your ENTIRE argument as to why I'm scum is "I'm not scum"?

Really? That's the best you can come up with? Gin should accept I'm scum because you aren't scum... that's what you're going with?

And you wonder why you're quite obviously scum, and nobody is believing a word you are saying?!

[PranaDevil]

It's clear you're pissed I'm not playing

how you want, and it's fueling your actions. You're also pissed that I won't call it any good

.

FTFY

[PranaDevil]

In fairness, Titus, VCA doesn't work by itself, especially when you do leave it wide open for someone to point out inconsistencies, and while I'm not one to assume the game is done before the mod announces it... if there's another bastarding power role in this game I'm killing someone.

However, Gin, Titus, don't get too wound up with each other, end of the day this is a game, and the point is for the scum to create enough confusion that town suspect each other. It was quite clear Titus was gunning for me come the end of yesterday, I was just able t put enough spin on it for her to be suspect because of it, doesn't mean negative in either direction, just that it is what it is.

Overall, besides half the town having bloody power roles, this was actually an interested game, and there were multiple times I thought "welp... that's me caught", especially with my refusal to claim.

Speaking of which, did ANYONE catch what I was hinting at at any point?

[PranaDevil]

Also, Titus... while you did get there with the VCA, and were bang on the money, the only problem with it was with all the changes in accusing people (and I get the feeling it was to get reactions and work out who my partner is, I just abused that a bit), it was very easy for me to make a big thing about it, and while you were obviously able to see through what I was doing, I didn't have to prove anything to you, just others, thus knowing you had caught me wasn't an issue unless others bought it, and it was relatively easy to point out things like your changing of opinion of Lexa.

Although, in hindsight, my feeling of how "obv scum" Lexa was dropped rapidly from when I was bullshitting my own VCA to make out it was "either" one or the other, and it was impossible to be both, and that really should have been a massive red flag, so I should be careful of that next time, think I got lucky there.

And yeah, Garmr's idiocy made the game much better in a way, and while I was hoping for straight to night, that would have been super unfair to town.

Apologies to anyone I wound up massively in this game too. I'm a bastard when I want to be. ^_^

[PranaDevil]

Speaking of which, did ANYONE catch what I was hinting at at any point?

By this, I mean the role I was claiming I had multiple times, and thought I had made it ridiculously obvious, and apparently everyone thought I claimed VT...

[PranaDevil]

LEXA I TOLD YOU CATCH UP POSTING WAS SCUM PLAY. I FUCKING KNEW IT

In fairness most of the posts that people town read me on were catch up play... by the same token it is the same play I use when town.

I think that was one of the reasons I went so long being viewed as town, I literally played as though I was town, regardless of who it was, whoever was scummiest, I would have my vote on, same actually went for karnos. Had nothing to do with "welp, better bus him", and everything to do with the fact that, at that point, he was the scummiest player.

[PranaDevil]

My VCA was stream of consciousness and was a mistake. I wasn't actually suspecting any of those slots at the end, but I did it so Gin could follow rather than my usual VCA.

This still confuses me even now... you did your VCA, and it was only after that where you started to guess teams. So even now when we all know the game has ended, it still reads as a lie... how do the teams change via VCA after VCA has been done? I'm confused (and I think that's why I was able to push it so much... I'm legitimately confused, it makes no sense to me, and thus I think Gin had the same issue, meaning you were caught out n something that really is an obvious miscommunication, and not any kind of scummy issue)

[PranaDevil]

@Devil and @Lexa, both of you are respectable players and I really hope to be in a game with you sometime soon. If I ever role scum again, I want to role it with Devil.

You just want to be on team Hedgehog. I know your game.

In seriousness, thanks. First game back and my initial theory was, with me not playing for well over 3 years, Lexa being new on the site, and no clue with karnos at that point, I thought we were screwed right out of the gate. So even getting to LyLo shocked me. Although Garmr did essentially help by being a fourth scum in essence.

Big ups to Devil, he definitely carried the major load for our team. I spent most of my efforts trying to scumhunt while coordinating wagons to avoid VC implications.

This was actually only my second time starting a game as scum and I'd hoped to get town for my first game here so it was helpful to have prana take the lead.

I'm better as scum but town is more fun :p

(If I ever look like the scummiest scum to ever scum I'm lock town)

Let's not pretend here, I seemed to take the lead, but 99% of the time I came up with an idea, asked for an opinion... and had already acted and moved on without any input (stupid timezones... scummy time zones even ), or had suggested the double hammer thing (damn you Titus, don't think anyone else would have been so adamant about watching out for that), in that we wait for literally any vote, post in our PT so we're both on at the same time, and then hammer together... Titus made damned sure that wasn't an option for me, and thus I just voted Titus anyway.

You held your end of the party well Lexa, in fact come the end of yesterday and today, I could have easily been the weak link.

[PranaDevil]

Overall a really fun game, and an enjoyable return to the site for me.

A few things i wasn't a fan of, which i mentioned for discussion purposes, and also possible future changes.

Too many power roles, waaaay too many power roles for town. 3 already seemed OP, 4 was crazy. I'm not sure where that was deemed normal, but it definitely didn't feel "normal" with how it went. I'm all for crazy stuff going on, (hence my /in for oddrole), but my aim was to be in a nice, relatively basic game for my first one back, and this was anything but. Definitely feel like it shouldn't have been in the normal queue.

And to respond to mastina's post above, the reason it was OP is that, yes, while Lexa's JOAT could hit some of them, we basically were three goons, because Lexa's JOAT shots rely on us knowing who the other roles are, where they are firing, and with what. Having a ninja kill is fine, but a one shot where we have no clue if it's essentially being wasted means it's actually rather a weak shot, ditto with the strongman. Yes if we know there's a doc and it's protecting a specific slot we can override, but there was only a tiny chance that was ever going to happen, thus in reality it was two goons, and a one shot roleblocker, against 4 town PRs, three of which had investigative powers and could potentially confirm each other.

Too much mod chatter as well. There were times I felt like perhaps mastina was giving too much info about things, and the pissing about from everyone to get page tops... that did legitimately annoy me somewhat as it stops being part of the game at that point. (Ditto for what I called Alisae's "shit posting", regardless of alignment, I stand by the fact that we don't need that stuff outside of RVS).

Good stuff was regular vote counts (if need be, edit a players post, or just stick them in anywhere, we're all big enough to ISO the mod if we need to), and barring the known issue of being away at weekends (which is fair enough) mastina was usually on the ball quite often to sort stuff. (Game end not permitting... )

Player base was fun, barring the one obvious issue with Garmr, who, if he ever plays the game again, needs to understand that nobody is required to take his word for anything, and the entire game is based around working out who is most probable scum in any situation.

karnos needs to not hoist his own lynch quite so quick when he's scum in future too, I mean, my god man, day 1?!

I'm sure other stuff will come up when I think of it, or when people read the scum thread, but regardless of anything I said in here, I mean no ill will to anyone, play to the role and all that jazz after all.

[PranaDevil]

Prana, why did you challenge me when I said I wanted to be doc'd night one?

Buggered if I know. My memory is shit at the best of times, so I legitimately don't remember this, and short of a re-read of the entire section it would be impossible to get my view point back. I'm sure I had some legitimate reason for it at the time though... that or I was tired and not typing properly.

And mastina, I guess it's entirely probably that in the 3+ years I've been away the site meta for balance has shifted. Which is entirely fair enough at that point, things change and move on. I guess I'm still more used to normal meaning a more basic game, minimal PRs, on both sides, and scum hunting being the order of the game. Partly because I feel if you need to rely on power roles to win a game for you, you deserve to lose in the first place. I'd be happy in a totally vanilla type game just as much as I am in a nutty as hell role madness type. As my initial aim was to start with a more or less vanilla type game, having 5 JOATs going round the place definitely didn't fit my "normal" view, but as I say, that does come from well over 3 years ago.

After reading the dead threads, I'm with mhsmith0 with the answering questions stuff, but again that does kinda boil down to personal preference. When I've modded I let the players get on with it, and only step in if required.

But yeah, overall regardless of differences of opinion regarding balance or styles of answering questions, a very fun game. Top marks mastina.

[PranaDevil]

Oh yeah... for the record, I was attempting to hint at myself being Vengeful, such as saying I didn't have a "fun" PR, and in the very same post, commenting about karnos' fake claim of vengeful... and then later on suggesting I could catch scum easily in LyLo with a vengeful shot.

All that crumbing, and it all went to waste... *sniff*

[PranaDevil]

WHY DOES SCUM THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO CLAIM VENGEFUL

Ah see... that's the difference, I never claimed. I crumbed. The idea being of course i knew karnos was scum after that Vengeful cock up "how could he be one if I'm one?", and my refusal to claim a role fits too.

Incidentally why DID nobody question the fact I didn't claim? Everyone assumed I claimed VT, then when I pointed out I hadn't claimed... nobody said anything, despite my refusal to claim being the biggest sin I could have made previously... TB was the only one who said anything, and that was asking if I was counterclaiming Titus. Otherwise... nope, ignored entirely.

[PranaDevil]

I talked bollocks and everyone went "oh, well that's okay then". That's what happened.

And while your reasoning was sound, I had no intention of claiming any kind of role like that Titus. I believe I'd already decided the Vengeful idea by then, thus my refusal to claim.

Funny thing is as well Titus is you had me bang on the money. Not sure I accept the way you did it as being fool proof as it does ignore all context (bit like the Alisae wagon can't be viewed in a vaccuum either), but either way, you did manage to get the team correct. The entire game could (and likely should) have been different had your slot not been worthless up until you replaced in. Had it used its actions I'd be surprised if it wasn't more blatant who the scum were.

And Titus... I didn't claim. Legitimately. Never claimed. What you perceived as claiming was not a claim.

[PranaDevil]

OH, yeah my logic was, I can burn a Prana lynch because we have a mislynch left.

OH HERP DE DERP IM GARMR.

There goes my fucking "mislynch" I needed.

Oh yeah... Garmr happened!

[PranaDevil]

.Nexus personally told me how he resets votecounts and continues the phase, so ultimately, that is what I elected to do--I also figured that if the town WANTED the day to end without a lynch after the modkill, they could simply elect to vote for a no-lynch, which ended up being exactly what they did. Butstill, the game was irreparably damanged by the modkill, because modkills are always something which cause a game to be irreparable, and it was...unpleasant.

So it's all Nexus' fault that we didn't go to night... damn you Nexus.

Also @Devil and @Lea, why did you kill AA and BBT?

*shrugs* I'm sure there were reasons in the PT... Can't remember them off hand though, seemed like a good idea at the time.

I know the scum thread has lots of different ideas from me where I suggest different scenarios, and who needs killing, and what will happen after... don't think any actually happened though.

[PranaDevil]

You all are very lucky you killed me over Gin.

You're telling me. It's funny actually, all along you were the guy I could count on to know I'm town, but as it felt like you were all to eager to side with Titus, I couldn't risk it.

Was the "catching out" of Titus a ploy to hopefully not be the NK once you had worked things out? Because I didn't think that at the time, but it looks very much like that is what the plan was, and it may have worked without the combo of Titus calling Gin my partner, and Gin daring her to kill him.

[PranaDevil]

One not so serious post before serious post.

Does the winning team get cookies?

<<< Depends. Is the winning team the dark side? >>>

THEY NEED COOKIES MASTINA

I approve of this suggestion.

<<< >>>