Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[shannon]

Thanks for having us Mastina x

<<< Well, I gotta have SOMEone...... >>>

[shannon]

I claim one shit claimer, I preclaim when day starts[

One shot*

<<< No, I'm pretty sure it was one shit claimer. >>>

Jordan this has to be your sig

<<< Jordan's not the only one I left something for... >>>

[shannon]

lol you've got mod right of refusal, don't you?

[shannon]

VOTE: Jordan because that avatar is so cute I can't even look at it all game.

<-------- sucker for pokemon

[shannon]

LQ definite town due to not paying enough attention to who's in the game to even direct a vote correctly? Sounds like a plan to me.

vote: Alisae

for reasons. (Hint, they aren't good reasons)

I'm being bullied and I would like to know the reasons ;~;

@Alisae what are the reasons?

[shannon]

Ugh sorry, that was a typing fail.

@PranaDevil - - reasons??

[shannon]

I asked for reasons knowing not to take them seriously as well. Does that make me scum?
How do you know they were going to take the reasons seriously?
And why can't they ask for reasons if they are town?
What makes you think they are attempting to push the game forward.
How do you know you aren't taking their post the wrong way?

1) That isn't all you did though.
2) Can you tell me they were not going to? Why would you think that? I see more reason to believe they would than they wouldn't; its the simplest explanation, Occam's Razor.
3) They can, but tbh it looks like a really weird place to ask that. Again, that is all shannon has done. Its a really simple question to ask. The trick is finding out if it is out of place or not and I think it is.
4) I think its a fake way to

look

like you are trying to push the game forward.
5) I could be. Its not a solid read at all. It is, however, an actual starting point out of RVS.

I asked what the reasons were because the poster said they had reasons and they

weren't good

. Whether or not I took them seriously would depend on what the reasons were, or whether the poster backtracked (i.e. said that there were no reasons, they were just talking shit or reaction testing or whatever).

Whether my post was forward-pushing, fake forward-pushing, or just making conversation, your reaction to it has been provocative. So yay for that.

Clearly this is almost a Newbie game if people have this kind of thing to say about my analysis.

You know you should of waited before trying to push her right. Asking questions can be protown or a scum tell depending on what they do with the answer. So instead of waiting to see what she does with it you pretty much spoiled anyway of telling if she is scum or not

This is a good point.

Also worth noting that the answer itself is now compromised by all the discussion around my question-asking.

[shannon]

You said you were his partner trying to derail the wagon hehe
don't mind me just a joke.

Lol oh k Still kinda don't get it through.

What do you think about XnadrojX/karnos/liquity/ through? I would like to hear more of your opinions through because you sheep a lot of noticed. Sheeping isn't bad as town since there are times town need to sheep. But it's always good to have some independent thought. It helps me in a variety of ways if all the players are actively posting with their own thoughts. Since I thrive in those scenarios.

The phrasing here seems quite stilted and unnatural. Not sure whether it's natural style, early game awkwardness, or scumminess.

[shannon]

You said you were his partner trying to derail the wagon hehe
don't mind me just a joke.

Lol oh k Still kinda don't get it through.

What do you think about XnadrojX/karnos/liquity/ through?

I would like to hear more of your opinions through because you sheep a lot of noticed. Sheeping isn't bad as town since there are times town need to sheep. But it's always good to have some independent thought. It helps me in a variety of ways if all the players are actively posting with their own thoughts. Since I thrive in those scenarios.

The phrasing here seems quite stilted and unnatural. Not sure whether it's natural style, early game awkwardness, or scumminess.

Probably a little bit of natural style and something else(not scum or early game awkwardness.).

I was a little conscious of that post through I'm kinda amazed you picked up on that. I rewrote that one like 3-4 times before I was satisfied with it. Originally it was going to be "what did you think of my case on karnos?" Instead of the highlighted section. But then it occurred to me that alisae is a player that will sheep their town reads. I didn't want to contaminate alisae's answer with my own thoughts. I wanted to see what type of answer alisae would produce and if I could get anything information on his alignment out of it.

OK, so what did Alisae's answer (121) tell you, if anything?

For my two cents: I am town reading Alisae, for things like post 84. I appreciate Alisae for calling out Lickety for being so OTT in his misguided pursuit of me. I think it's generally towny to ask follow up questions like Alisae did. The suggestion that it might have all been a misunderstanding (95) seems like an attempt to get to truth and not a scummy attempt to slander.

But XJordan's response in 91 took it way too far. His counter to Lickety looked way OTT, not to mention opportunistic. I did find it ironic that he told Lickety to go back to the newbie queue, then committed the cardinal newbie sin of answering a question that was directed at someone else.

The weird bit - Alisae asked XJordan to 'wagon it' with him, and Jordan didn't do so. And Karnos voted Lickety straight after. Jordan, meanwhile sticks with his RVS vote on Alisae. Gut feel is that Jordan was afraid of looking opportunistic for voting Lickety. My vote was RVS on Jordan, but now it's serious.

Revote so it comes up in the Mod's VCA stuff:

VOTE: XJordan for serious this time

<<< Actually, the way my votecounts work is that only changes in votes get noted. If a player casts multiple votes in a post, only the one at the very end counts; if a player changes their vote in one post, but immediately switches back in their next post, I still note the change; if a player doesn't change their vote at all and just revotes for emphasis, it doesn't get noted.
There is a slight exception: if a player unvotes someone, and in that same post, votes a different player, I will mark the unvote. However, if a person is merely unvoting who they are already voting and revoting that person, I will still not note it. >>>

[shannon]

Hmmm. I guess that 'language you would use on a scum read' is in the eye of the beholder. If I'd called out Lickety like XJordan did, I would have followed up with a vote.

You are right that Karnos is not exactly covering himself in glory, either. His vote does look opportunistic.

I would like to ask Jordan what his read on Lickety is.

[shannon]

If anyone can produce a good counter argument to why karnos is town and LQ scum please present it.

No argument here, I think LQ is townish.

[shannon]

okay I ISO dived and by dived I mean skimmed.
I'm probably conf biasing you cuz now you're asking good questions that are meant to progress the game or atleast advance it so you're probs town.
Jordan seems strange in that he was attacking LQ's shitty logic but he thinks he's town?
That seems strange to me.
So I'm voting there now
VOTE: Jordan

So hang on: You were the one who originally brought up Lickety's reachy case on me. Jordan continued on with that case. Now you're town reading Lickety, but you're voting Jordan for doing the same thing you did? Not cool

VOTE: Alisae

[shannon]

OH NO! I MADE 2 POSTS THAT PAD OUT THE THREAD! WHAT WILL I EVER DO?!?!?!?
You're making a big deal out of nothing.

Seriously though, it is kinda annoying.

I'm TRing Lickety cuz he's asking good questions that progress the game and I've been always SRing Jordan so I hopped there.
You sure scum would accuse someone of doing the exact same thing that they just did? That doesn't make sense to me.

pedit: Good shit LQ.

I don't like cases of "scum would/wouldn't do this"
Anything can be shaken off like that.

+1

[shannon]

PEdit: I misread Jordan, specifically the bit 'a counter argument to why'. I don't have any particular read on Karnos but I town read you Lickety.

okay I ISO dived and by dived I mean skimmed.
I'm probably conf biasing you cuz now you're asking good questions that are meant to progress the game or atleast advance it so you're probs town.
Jordan seems strange in that he was attacking LQ's shitty logic but he thinks he's town?
That seems strange to me.
So I'm voting there now
VOTE: Jordan

So hang on: You were the one who originally brought up Lickety's reachy case on me. Jordan continued on with that case. Now you're town reading Lickety, but you're voting Jordan for doing the same thing you did? Not cool

VOTE: Alisae

I like my vote currently. I wanted to see if more people would vote Alisae if I pressure them. As I was pressuring them I was getting some clear Town tells that I use that make sense reasonable. Nothing solid on its own, but it all adds up.

So naturally I find shannon really opportunistic here.

TL;DR: I didn't say I had a Town read on Alisae after getting done tunneling on her because I wanted to see if anyone would use that to Scum read her.

I am trying to make sense of the part I bolded. Can you tell me whether this is correct:

1) You tunnelled Alisae as a kind of reaction test
2) You actually town read her
3) You wanted to see whether your pretend scum read on her would cause anyone else to scum read her

If that *is* what you're saying, then I don't get how you connected my vote on her back to your read of her. I am not making any reference to your read on Alisae, I'm calling her a hypocrite for her behaviour.

Lickety, you made a reachy case on me which you later referred to as 'getting out of RVS'. Alisae called you out and cased you for it. Jordan went further with calling you out and casing you.

Alisae has now changed her mind and town reads you, which is fine. But she votes Jordan for the case he made on you, which is hypocrisy, because she was making a similar case. And that's why I'm voting Alisae.

[shannon]

@Lickety -

What opening though? My vote on her has nothing to do with you pressuring her.

I have to point out how terrible your logic is in this part:

Also, Expect Scum to reply in the same way you did. I was thinking about the counter argument you could have made that would have been better, but I find it Scummy that you didn't use that one and decided to base your argument based on facts instead of sentiment.

It is my opinion that Town generally bases more of their arguments on sentiment than facts, at least in my experience. True people can use either or as both alignments but

when one is neglected over the other is when it becomes clearer what that persons motivation is

.

This is just plain bad, for so many reasons:

1) I had no need to think of the Best Possible Counterargument because I'm only giving my *actual* counterargument, which is to state my actual reasons for voting Alisae.
2) Why is it scummy to avoid Appeal to Emotion? Especially when there's no emotion involved? I've played multiple games where people have made exactly the opposite claim to you; that acting emotionally is scummy because there are no good reasons to fall back on
3) It seems you know I'm telling the truth, and yet you think I should have told an emotional lie because it would have been more convincing. That is very weird to me.

Also, is there a plan for you to do anything other than 'reaction test' and then claim that whoever reacts is doing what you'd expect scum to do? That schtick is getting old, and it's less convincing each time you claim it.

[shannon]

My read on LQ degenerated back down to slight scumlean. I'm still reading karnos harder, but if karnos flips Town I'm looking at LQ next.

W0WIE I DIDN'T KNOW MUDKIPZ HAD AN ABILITY TO LINE UP LNYCHES.

<<< It's an HM called "lynchline". >>>

It was not very successful.

I don't get the connection you're seeing between Karnos and LQ, @Jordan

But XJordan's response in 91 took it way too far. His counter to Lickety looked way OTT, not to mention opportunistic.

Gut feel is that Jordan was afraid of looking opportunistic for voting Lickety.

Is he opportunistic or not?

At the time I posted that, Jordan's case on Lickety looked opportunistic, like he was just sinking the boot in because Alisae did and thought he might get something out of it. When he didn't vote Lickety, it made me think that Jordan wanted to *start* something on Lickety, but not have to do the dirty work (voting) himself. Like he would take the opportunity to get a wagon underway, without having to do much, but he didn't want it to *look like* that so he didn't vote.

It has since been pointed out that Jordan didn't use 'scum read' language. And it's been suggested that I might have misunderstood his intentions with Lickety, and that Jordan's lack of vote on Lickety was justified. I'm a bit unsure about that but I'm willing to admit that reading people's intentions is not my forte, and as I said, I would have added a vote if I'd used the kind of language Jordan did about Lickety.

I currently think Alisae came out of the whole thing looking worst. I think it was he who had asked Jordan to wagon? (I'll need to check that that's right). My town read on Lickety is eroding a bit, because the case he just tried to make on me - scum reading me for not being emotional - is just complete rubbish. Not only because I know my role, but because it's just ass backwards. Jordan ... I'm interested in how he's sticking with his guns, and I think I need to re-read to see what he's pointing to. A weak town read there, I guess.

I can't help but wonder whether this whole thing is a distraction and scum are happily lurking out watching us pick at each other for minor stuff. It's encouraging to see you posting substantive stuff so quickly after replacing in.

[shannon]

So Shannon, you're saying that, from your point of view, Jordan's play was like throwing a punch at LQ but holding back so he doesn't get the blame for it?

I wish I knew how to be so concise as you are. But yes, that's what I thought was going on. Right now though, I'm not really sure. All I know is that I'm going to leave Lickety alone because we're not getting anywhere productive. I think we're talking past each other there.

[shannon]

And I have no problems with Prana's case on me except one thing. I said now twice now my read on Shannon is ongoing. Its still fucking early and some people are going to take more time to read than others. Lexa not providing shit and then going on V/LA until Tuesday is an example of that. But besides that, because people have different styles that means that some people are going to be easier to read than others.

Yeah but isn't your read on everyone ongoing, all the time? Looks to me like you're trying to hedge your bets a bit, leaving the option open to lynch-me-or-not depending on where the popular current goes.

This is the thing I don't like about your play: You make a push, go at it hard, and then retreat to 'yeah but it's ongoing so IDK'. I'd prefer it if you'd just left that last part out and kept a scum read on me, if you think I'm scum. I'm actually becoming more convinced that *you* might be scum. In fact, have a vote.
VOTE: Lickety

Fine. I'll be patient and wait look a good child.

The condition for my posting reasoning for my vote on All Alone has now been fulfilled. That condition was All Alone posting so as to see possible reaction / lack thereof in response to my vote.

*snippy*

Posts from AA/Alisae have been my focus since game start, I'll likely wall post later in the week after I come off low activity and have been able to take some time to reread the thread and consider posts at more than face value.

I think you're probably flying very close to the wind by mentioning an ongoing game. Also, you voted in RVS, or very close to it, so why expect any kind of AI reaction from Alisae at that point, at all? It looks like you've been reasonably thorough (based on the part I snippied out) so I'm going to lightly town read you for that. Please don't wall post if you can help it. It's much easier to keep up with the game little bit by little bit, than to re-read a few days' worth at a time.

[shannon]

Ooh by the way I liked Prana's big wall post. Not so much its wallyness, but the fact that it exists and it seems thorough.

[shannon]

1) Same difference really.

2) you're the one suggesting he "knows" Alisae is town, and then pushed it.

3) I'll give you that, though I'll also point out it doesn't change that regardless of play style, if it seems there's scum motivation for doing what you're doing, it will look scummy. Thus a terrible job of making it seem like Garmr knows Alisae is town, without catching a slip, just seems like scum attempting to get peoples reads of Garmr changed.

Also, I said the same as Shannon regarding ongoing reads, got a totally different response... Doesn't seem genuine really. Like, I get a pass, shannon gets pressure? Hmmm...

Why point out that the post formatting is the same, if it doesn't mean anything Lickety?

[shannon]

Sorry for that formatting fail, forgot I had a post in Q+

My question at the bottom of 378 is directed to Lickety's 377.

[shannon]

1) Same difference really.

2) you're the one suggesting he "knows" Alisae is town, and then pushed it.

3) I'll give you that, though I'll also point out it doesn't change that regardless of play style, if it seems there's scum motivation for doing what you're doing, it will look scummy. Thus a terrible job of making it seem like Garmr knows Alisae is town, without catching a slip, just seems like scum attempting to get peoples reads of Garmr changed.

Also, I said the same as Shannon regarding ongoing reads, got a totally different response... Doesn't seem genuine really. Like, I get a pass, shannon gets pressure? Hmmm...

I Q+ed this one because I wanted an explanation for that last part. Why do I get pressure and Prana gets something else?

[shannon]

So, I've actually started reading the game.

Got some solid town reads over the first 7 pages which I'm pretty happy about. I don't get all the town reads on Alisae though?

Karnos looks like an excellent lynch so far. Or Prana.

Well, I'm glad you decided to join the rest of us!

I would love to hear what you see in Prana, because my read is the opposite of yours.

[shannon]

My read on Prana has reversed - I'm no longer interested in lynching them.

OK, good to hear it, but why?

[shannon]

I feel like I am talking to a wall, nobody is even responding to my arguments.

Bleh.

Just do me a favor, nobody quick lynch me okay? I want a chance to respond to the case on me, as flimsy as it is. It's a long time until deadline.

4. An opportunistic vote is when you see the opportunity to vote someone with little possible repurcussions, in this case, LQ was likely going to be wagoned and leading the wagon in advance like this has little implications on you tomorrow.

WTF is this logic? How was I predicting the future, exactly?

Either there was a legitimate reason to vote him, and I am justified in my vote for that reason, or there isn't- in which case there is no possible reason for me to predict he would be a wagon. You are arguing nonsense.

Note: haven't caught up on the thread yet, posting as I go.

Regarding this whole issue: Does it matter in retrospect that LQ was not actually wagoned? (I'm not supposing an answer here, I am genuinely looking for perspectives). I can't decide whether Jordan was trying to prevent a wagon on LQ by mentioning it, or whether the wagon didn't happen because scum read the post in question. Or something else?

On a different note: KT the Creeper has done an excellent job of creeping with 1 post in his ISO. Hopefully he will be replaced. When he is, or if he picks up the prod, I fully intend to vote the hell out of that slot to get some actual content, and I would like some support in doing that. If you won't lend your vote, certainly you can ask some hard questions.

I can see that KT last posted in this game Saturday AM (my time), but he's been online this morning (it's Tuesday evening now) and not posted here. He's been active elsewhere, which just SCREAMS scum lurking out in this game. Especially since this is quite an active game and should be high in his ego list.

[shannon]

I'll be catching up in about 5 minutes but jesus guys it starts with a "G'

<<< No, it starts with a J.

...If you want it to start with a 'G', then you have to say "Guys jesus", not "jesus guys". >>>

OMG thank you, I have been going mental wondering whether I was in the wrong game, since one I was in had Jin as well.

<<< KTthecreeper has requested replacement. Searching now. >>>

The asshole in me wants to put this slot at L-2 and scare the piss out of the replacement

Let's not give TB too much credit here. It's pretty easy to look townier than the slots who are lurking. Here, TB, have a 'welcome' vote VOTE: Think Big

^^This is saying I'm interested in your theory work and want to learn it :p

I feel like he said

"oh yeah, I'm Scum /S."

"Wait a minute, that might be a bad idea to admit that, I should prolly just say I am Town."

Its like kinda an over explanation that shows he's not thinking cool and calm. Its too... spammy for something that is just "Are you Town"

*oh my god and then saying that the game is solved implies that he knows there is only one scum. He must be a super powered ninja hiding scum person*

Interesting that we have an LQ Karnos and AA mexican standoff

Yep, and so we need to decide:
- Is all this wagoning and unwagoning LQ's way of testing and getting reads, or is he scum waiting for a push to stick? (((FWIW: I thought it was the latter, but now he's done it a heap of times so I'm leaning town there )))
- Does anyone want to defend Karnos? What is really the case there? (((I don't get it)))
- What is the real case on AA, besides lurking out?
- Is there someone else deserving of attention?

Anyway my list goes

{Prana, Jordan}
{Gin, Garmr, Lickety}
{Alisae, Karnos, Lexa} - - No one here has done anything outstandingly scummy that I can see, but they're also not standing out to me as town. Put it down to 'vibes'.
{All Alone, ThinkBig (not giving the slot a town read since it's just newly replaced), Pepchoninga (no real content), BBT (no content, naked votes and naked reads)}

[shannon]

If Jordan stops producing content my read instantly flips that Jordan toyed with Karnos a bit to get heat off of him and decided to become complacent that he is no longer the center of attention.

This is a perspective to look at again after a flip.

Votes are very important for a reason. With 13 players, we can suspect there to be 3 scums as the standard amount in play. This means that every time a wagon reaches 4 votes, you are promised a townie in the wagon. You play find the townie

I never thought of it like that!

1. AA is low-hanging fruit
2. As scum, I go for low-hanging frut
3. Therefore, I am scum.

Please tell me this doesn't fit the definition of inductive reasoning
As scum, I go for low-hanging fruit
AA is low-hanging fruit
Therefore, I am scum.

1. AA is low-hanging fruit
2. As scum, I go for low-hanging frut
3. Therefore, I am scum.

Please tell me this doesn't fit the definition of inductive reasoning
As scum, I go for low-hanging fruit
AA is low-hanging fruit
Therefore, I am scum.

The conclusion does not follow, and cannot follow logically from the premise. It lies under the faulty assumption that town!TB does not/cannot scum read and/or go after low hanging fruit.

There's an implied premise there, which is that TB is going for low hanging fruit. But yeah, it doesn't follow deductively. We've still got the possibility that TB is Town and going for low hanging fruit - or that TB is going for AA for some reason *other* than him being low hanging fruit.

Can someone who's rad at VCA go back and see why that AA wagon fell apart?

[shannon]

PEdit: Lots of posts in the time it took me to do this! Hopefully it's not wasted.

***

OK, let's play along with this theory and look at both wagons:

Based on the votes only, following have voted AA in order -

5 - Lexa, Alisae, LicketyQuickety, PranaDevil, ThinkBig

--Lexa has *only* voted AA, back in 73, and is VLA.
--Alisae voted AA in 287
- Lickety moved from me to AA in 401
--Prana has gone from voting *for* Lickety in 479 to voting *with* Lickety on AA in 542
-- Alisae changed to TB in 569.
-- TB voted AA in 609

Again, in order, Karnos has been voted by:
karnos: 5 - Garmr, XnadrojX, TheRealGin-N-Tonic, BlueBloodedToffee, TheRealGin-N-Tonic

Garmr voted Karnos in 102, it is his *second* vote for the game and he hasn't changed since
Jordan voted him in 120, it is his *second* vote for the game and he hasn't changed since
BBT voted him in 245, and this is his *only* vote for the game
Gin voted him in 261, moved to Pep in 283, and then back to Karnos in 286

Here's what I get from this - other perspectives encouraged:

- If anyone is trying to counter-wagon ScumKarnos, it's not Lexa
- Alisae's behaviour is consistent with being buddies with AA, and getting off the AA wagon when it got busy
- On the Karnos wagon, BBT looks most suspicious given that it's his only vote and he's third on the wagon
- On the AA wagon, Prana looks suspicious (equally with Alisae I think) for voting with Lickety, given that she moved *from* Lickety to do so, and given that the wagon was gathering steam at the time.

[shannon]

Hmm, I think it might be Lexa > LQ.
I don't see why scum!LQ would go defend TB the way they did.
If anything it would make more sense to let me push them.

So you think Scum Lexa jumped on someone early in the game and has just lurked out, waiting to see whether a wagon formed on them? Or that she didn't really care whether or not a wagon formed, she just intended to lurk?

[shannon]

@Prana =- I didn't read any posts, that's all purely based on where the votes went.

PS - I have left my laptop charger at work by accident, and tomorrow is a public holiday. If I am not here much, or i'm doing crap phone posts, that's why x

[shannon]

Just catching up with the last few pages.

I thought I did, but if you want me to spell it out I'm a vengeful townie.

I'm glad you spelled it out because I've not played with someone vengeful before and had to look it up.

I also think at the very least we shouldn't hammer until Lexa makes their catchup post.

I don't like the way Lexa comes in at L-1 and says they will make a catch up post in the next day or so. Makes it look like they don't want to contribute much

.

I agree with this.

Nah, Karnos is a great lynch.

He is trying to scare away a potential hammer by saying he might shoot them

.

You're not wrong. He is a great lynch.
Is he trying to scare away a potential hammer? Nah. I think we have more time to spend and we could be looking elsewhere, that's all.

Plus if we do decide to let him live, scum will just NK him

.

Hold up, that last line I really, really do not like. If we let him live scum will NK him sounds like you know he's town and scum need him out of the way.

Can anyone explain the sudden BBT voting to me please?

Why would Karnos kill the hammerer, though? According to the wiki unless he's a 'Super Saint' he has a choice about who to kill. I think (hope?) he could tell the difference between town hammering the wagon and his scum reads hammering the wagon.

Claiming now is suboptimal because we now have to protect him until the end of the game if we want to get good use from his power. But I can see why he did it, given he was at L-1. Are we SURE that Alisae is not trying to draw out a doc or protective role claim here? Because that's the obvious way for scum not to night kill him.

Actually.
What we can do is we could leash who Karnos kills.
Suggest like 3 names for him to kill.
And then he kills whoever out of that pool.
Good idea anyone if the claim is real?

Yeah it's an OK idea, except how do we all agree on three people? And why three? Let's go ahead and find the scummiest person and give Karnos that name. (Are you trying to draw role claims from three more people who wouldn't want to be NKed?)

It's the wording of the post to me. The line "scum will just NK him" screams that they know scum will kill him. Not "they might", no "what if he's scum?" In there at all, just "scum will kill him". Alisae can say he believes the claim, but short of actually being scum, Alisae wouldn't know someone's alignment, meaning there should always be doubt. So what if karnos is scum? Scum would hardly NK him then would they?

But, as that was all ignored, it, to me, reads that Alisae somehow knows karnos would flip town, as otherwise there would still be uncertainty.

Yes

His play leading up to the claim is fine. If anything he was just trying to get SR'd so he can do his thing.

You're suggested that I slipped that Karnos is town. I didn't. I said scum would probably NK him because they probably don't want to risk him hitting scum if he were to get lynched.
You're pushing a slip that isn't a slip. That's a scumtell for me.
VOTE: PranaDevil

I am calling bullshit on this. Let's say Karnos is a total newbie who, like me, has to check the wiki to see what his role does. Here's the wiki recommendation:

"

Claiming Vengeful Townie is not advised (unless your actual role is Vengeful and Mafia-aligned).

The effect of giving its faction a bonus kill is useless unless you yourself are worth lynching - otherwise it's obviously more profitable to lynch the player you would Vengefully kill while leaving you alive.

Thus, Vengeful claims under duress are seen as grounds for a policy lynch.
If you are still unclaimed at three-player LyLo, consider deliberately getting lynched and using your vengekill on the hapless quickhammering scum

"

TL;DR: Don't look scummy, wait until LYLO to use your power if you can.

[shannon]

That' s a VOTE: Alisae

[shannon]

This (Prana's above me) is a town post. It's the towniest post that ever posted. Everything I've quoted in bold is spot on.

*snip*

You know what, go for it.

I don't have the patience to try to break of a clique of fanatics.

Just make sure you lynch XnadrojX & Garmr, in that order, after me.

Anyway, after I die, XnadrojX will flip scum. Please lynch his obv partner Garmr tomorrow.

Yes, this is a serious claim.

These two do not match up, as AA points out above,

karnos suggesting we lynch Jordan tomorrow, then claiming Jordan will be killed by him just shows it was a desperate claim.

Something else really doesn't match up either.

Nah, Karnos is a great lynch.

He is trying to scare away a potential hammer by saying he might shoot them.

You're not wrong. He is a great lynch.

Is he trying to scare away a potential hammer? Nah. I think we have more time to spend and we could be looking elsewhere, that's all.
Plus if we do decide to let him live, scum will just NK him.

That bit in bold, does not match up with:

Hold up, that last line I really, really do not like. If we let him live scum will NK him sounds like you know he's town and scum need him out of the way.

Okay, why wouldn't scum kill him?

And I believe the claim

.

You believe the claim... and feel karnos is a great lynch? These do not match, it's one or the other. he's either a great lynch for being scum, OR he's town, and thus would be a bad lynch. The two cannot co-exist.

I also really dislike Alisae's "intent to hammer" post, only to derail the entire thing so quickly, and then point out we have "15 days left, no need to lynch". Why the sudden change right there too?

I'm also going t totally contradict myself now I'm more awake and re-reading it,

I honestly don't think Alisae derailed the karnos wagon through not wanting to lynch known town. I'm actually of the view Alisae is scum, but so is karnos.

-------------

So, as it stands, my opinion is thus:

karnos is scum, the vengeful claim is quite clearly bullshit as already pointed out by AA above, my vote stays on karnos as I want him lynched, like yesterday.

Alisae quite obviously wanted that wagon to dissipate and move elsewhere

, I'll happily admit I cocked up royally (hey, I was at a gaming group when I read things first, then was knackered when I got home, I'll refrain from reading/posting when doing stuff or being tired in future, and you may all slap me if I deviate from this), and the push on Alisae, while a correct push, was the wrong reasoning. Alisae is scum along with karnos, and I'd be happy to lynch this way, but a karnos lynch is a huge preference as the wagon should not fall apart.

As it stands, I'm only willing to lynch one of these two right now, and I'll even throw in a special super sexy deal. If people are unsure if I'm scum or if karnos is scum if somehow he "is" a vengeful (he's not, and we all know this), then he should fire at me then you get rid of your other scum read as well.

That's literally how confident he'll flip scum I am, as he wont shoot me... he's not a vengeful, he's the scummiest scum that ever scummed.

[shannon]

VOTE: Karnos

That should be L-1. We already have a claim; unless Karnos wants to retract and claim something else?
Either way, pursue Alisae tomorrow

[shannon]

@Lexa why are you giving Jordan a moderate town read; he flipped town overnight..

(Secretly I am glad that I am not the one with the reading fail this time)

Prana and Shannon seems to be the most agreed on townread based on what is going on.
ThinkBig is a strange mix of scummy posts and townie posts. Don't really know how to read that slot.

Alisae just announced he's scum, and likely with karnos. Bringing off a lot of the votes off karnos was Alisae.
The fact that the wagon just dissipated like that indicates scum, probably a scumbuddy tried to derail.

I dunno about AA, he hasn't made enough posts for me to properly get a read on him, leaning scum for now I think.
That thing from Lexa is NAI, can't blame inconvenient timing looking opportune imo. (Unless I'm too trusting of people which I doubt)
There still was no reason to vote BBT over karnos, karnos still stood as the scummier person.
Speaking of karnos, the claim was shit. I doubt he actually a Vengeful townie (unless Vengeful Mafia but I've never heard of it) it looked a lot like a self defence move to me.

This is the best you're gonna get out of me for the weekend.

Interesting.

I don't see why a townie would bring this shit up anyways.
How does this not look like scum preparing to get a lynch off me?

Either Alisae or TB is my pick for today, so far. Their back-and-forth looks to me like scum distancing instead of TvT, especially considering my read on Alisae. Jordan had both of them pegged for scummy behaviour, so a bit of mutual bussing is a good way to overcome that.

Man it looks like I have to steer the town to voting obvious scum again today. I feel like town would lose with out me.

What makes you think town want to lynch me cuz I really do thing scum is voting me right now.

Everyone seems to be town reading LQ because they are gullible. From what I gather they think his articulate language and indepth sentences = town what you should be looking out for is motives and interactions and reasoning. A lot of what he says is hollow when it comes to gaining anything as town but it seems well explained enough that people will overlook it with out actually noticing the hollow nature of it.

That's what I mean by Leading town.

But if you want to know why people think your scummy it's because you appear inherently scummy no matter your alignment. People attribute your Quirkiness to scum behavior. So I can understand why some people may see you as scum. That being said there is a chance that one scum that has voted you and since I believe lq is the other scum that makes the majority of your wagon town (3 out 4 at the least)

Following the leader, wherever he may go!

PS Lexa - Jordan flipped town, he needs to be a strong town read and not a moderate town read

[shannon]

@Gin that's a really good point. Either LQ is terribly unlucky in his choice of town read, or he was trying to cover Karnos.

[shannon]

VOTE: Lickety

L-2

[shannon]

Holy shit no more votes. Can't believe you guys lynched yesterday and I didn't even get to post.

BRB checking what I did last night. I'm going to claim x

[shannon]

I am (was!) a town JOAT.

N1 I jailkept Think Big
N2 I doctored Gin and Tonic
N3 I bodyguarded Gin and Tonic

[shannon]

Hold on... another JOAT claim, AND a roleblocker claim.... so that's three JOATs in the wild (well, 2 alive now)... I'm not buying all these claims. As i said before, another JOAT claim imbalances this game, and it's very easy on day 4 to say "yeah, I did these things and these people are still alive".

It doesn't change my statement though.

Scum is in shannon/Garmr
scum is in myself/Lexa

If you believe that, then it's Garmr + Lexa.

I was hoping that scum would try to hit G+T last night after he claimed, because then I'd die instead. We'd then have conf town G+T alive, and conf town me dead, which would help with wagon analysis.

[shannon]

VOTE: Think Big

Based on a few things:
1) I think he has been quite circumspect in his posting. It doesn't seem natural.
2) I think he's pushing too hard to try to make a 'town block' with him in it.
3) All these things quoted below.

539 says he will get serious and post thoughts when he gets home; no real serious thoughts happen.

670 Puts Karnos to L-1 with absolutely 0 comments or questions on him, just has him at the bottom of reads lists. Looks like he's bussing. Unvotes without explanation in 696.

Let's try and form a solid town block

and try to eliminate possible scum mates from the remaining pool.

@Garmr, I still think you are scum. Sorry.

Reads as quite insincere.

We also have TB disavowing meta:

*snippy*

Guess what? I don't give a flying fuck about previous games.

All meta is bullshit.

But then when it comes to the pointy end of things, all of a sudden meta is important:

Here is another scum game from pep.

Town Shannon

vs

Scum Shannon

[shannon]

Bloody hell I just lost all my Q+s because I hit reply on a different window.

Anyway, current crackpot theory: Gin is faking his claim, and has fake cleared TB. He has a scum investigative power, which is how he cleared BBT (who is really clear), having found him to be a VT.

Thoughts??

[shannon]

I think if you believe Gin is scum with TB, why did you bodyguard him, and say you hoped scum killed him? Surely you should bodyguard elsewhere? Also how would you dying through bodyguard prove Gin was town then? Wouldn't it just show you died and not that Gin was protected in that scenario?

I'm happy with a Lexa/shannon team at this point

The crackpot theory only just occurred to me today. Literally, as I posted it. Promise me that if I get lynched today you'll pursue this, because I'm going to flip exactly as I've claimed.

You're right, I could've just died and it wouldn't have proven shite about Gin. But I thought it was likely that scum would target the claimed PR, and my death (and shown to have had bodyguard power) might have helped people put 2 and 2 together. Given that he didn't die/wasn't targeted (or was targeted by a doc as well I suppose, so he didn't die and then I didn't die), it looks suss.

[shannon]

Claim List

1. shannon - JOAT (jailkeeper on TB, doctor on G+T, bodyguard on G+T) = = no results of note except G+T would not have been killed N3 because I survived to tell the tale.
3. TheRealGin-N-Tonic - JOAT (1-shot cop, 1-shot gunsmith, 1-shot neapolitan)
5. Pepchoninga - No claim
6. Lexa - Roleblocker
8. ThinkBig - Vanilla
10. Garmr - Vanilla
13. PranaDevil - No claim

With AA's flip, we have 5 investigation shots and 3 protection shots. Shannon's JOAT claim is suspicious as it could lead to a mini follow the cops.

If they're telling the truth, then this set up seems very town sided.

I've been in a game recently where we had a JOAT, doc, 2 shot follower, and 1 shot town universal backup, and neighbours. People didn't believe claims because it's too much power, turns out scum had heaps of power too. I think Mastina might have been a reviewer of that game (correct me if I'm wrong mod!).

<<< I loved that game! JaeReed is an awesome mod. (Well, JaeReed is an awesome person, but is an awesome mod, too!) I was in fact a reviewer! It was 1857. >>>

I think we are looking for a scum JOAT. I reckon maybe a neapolitan shot (because role cop might be too strong), a roleblock shot, and a strongman shot.

I've amended the post to show who I acted on, G+T could you please do the same?

Also UNVOTE: because I don't believe Lexa more than I don't believe G+T and TB.

[shannon]

<<< I loved that game! JaeReed is an awesome mod. (Well, JaeReed is an awesome person, but is an awesome mod, too!) I was in fact a reviewer! It was 1857. >>>

I was in that game as an alt! Fantastic game.

OK, who are you an alt of? How did I not know that?!

[shannon]

Claim List

1. shannon - JOAT (jailkeeper on TB, doctor on G+T, bodyguard on G+T) = = no results of note except G+T would not have been killed N3 because I survived to tell the tale.
3. TheRealGin-N-Tonic - JOAT (1-shot cop, 1-shot gunsmith, 1-shot neapolitan)
5. Pepchoninga - No claim
6. Lexa - Roleblocker
8. ThinkBig - Vanilla
10. Garmr - Vanilla
13. PranaDevil - No claim

With AA's flip, we have 5 investigation shots and 3 protection shots. Shannon's JOAT claim is suspicious as it could lead to a mini follow the cops.

If they're telling the truth, then this set up seems very town sided.

I've been in a game recently where we had a JOAT, doc, 2 shot follower, and 1 shot town universal backup, and neighbours. People didn't believe claims because it's too much power, turns out scum had heaps of power too. I think Mastina might have been a reviewer of that game (correct me if I'm wrong mod!).

<<< I loved that game! JaeReed is an awesome mod. (Well, JaeReed is an awesome person, but is an awesome mod, too!) I was in fact a reviewer! It was 1857. >>>

I think we are looking for a scum JOAT. I reckon maybe a neapolitan shot (because role cop might be too strong), a roleblock shot, and a strongman shot.

I've amended the post to show who I acted on, G+T could you please do the same?

Also UNVOTE: because I don't believe Lexa more than I don't believe G+T and TB.

Ummm why is that a question? You acknowledged who I targeted with what ability and we are here because I got the neo-shot on Lexa...

Regardless

N1: ThinkBig Cop Shot
N2: BBT Gunsmith-shot
N3: Lexa Neo-Shot

Oh!!! I had no idea!!!

<<< The More You Know. >>>

[shannon]

Grr the 'I had no idea' was meant to be in response to TB being Kohai.

[shannon]

Here's what I actually wanted to say with the quotes.

It is really suspicious that G+T was a claimed PR and yet not killed. When I say 'not killed', I mean that if he was targeted last night I should be dead today, because I was bodyguarding him. I don't know whether scum are trying to out-guess the town PRs here and targeted someone who they thought would be unprotected, or whether G+T's claim was just BS.

I still have this niggling feeling that it's a fake claim. I think G+T has the powers he specifies but he has them as scum and is using them to make himself look town. No one is going to argue with his results. And if we lynch Town Lexa who is non-vanilla then he has plausible deniability.

If anyone else has doubts about G+T we need to flip him today because if he goes to LYLO like this he will win.

Similarly, if any of you have real doubts about my claim, you need to flip me now. Because if you leave it to LYLO on the premise that you'll auto-vote me, you'll lose. I am guessing that I'm not going to be NKed because scum will want to keep this ambiguity in the game.

I normally don't advocate my own lynch because I don't think it helps our wincon, but in this case if my claim is going to distract you from finding actual scum when it matters then it's best to get it out of the way.

I wouldn't mind seeing claims from the remaining players first, though.

[shannon]

I don't see any scum motivation for Gin to have claimed where he did. Neither of us were under any pressure and the scum team may have thought that there was a doctor protecting him or me so they decided to kill BBT as a safe choice.

Not liking he shades.

And I'm also not liking your AtE

It's not shade, it's what I think. It's also not ATE, it's appeal to logic. If you don't trust my claim, you can't take me further because if I'm auto-lynched it's going to bring about the wrong outcome. Better that I get lynched now than later for that reason. At least then you'll know that what I'm saying is honest and comes from town.

[shannon]

@Prana is this the one you wanted replies to? I'll do mine in bold inside the quotes because I don't know how to break out part of the quotes.

I agree Pep-scum is a possibility, though at that point it doesn't ignore the fact scum were definitely on lynches day 1 and day 2, as one lynch I could somewhat accept at a push, but not normally this early, and at that point we would then be looking more at Myself, you (Garmr) and shannon, while ignoring Lexa who wasn't on either of the first two wagons. As I don't believe scum wouldn't bus their buddy, even if just the one of them. So one of us three must be scum.

I don't know if we can say 'definitely' about the lynches having scum on them.

That means if Pep is scum, Lexa likely isn't, which I don't feel matches up, and in fairness, I don't feel you do either as you've voted Lexa yourself. Meaning you would be of the opinion of a potential Lexa/Pep scum team? I still don't believe that in two lynches scum weren't on either, which wouldn't match up with Lexa/Pep as a team.

In fact... Pep scum would mean that at least one lynch happened without scum on it. Of us other four, day 1 had no Lexa, day 2 had no Lexa or myself, and day 3 had no shannon or Garmr. I still don't feel that fits. I'll accept it's not solid evidence that Pep can't be scum, but with karnos' actions it was easy for scum to bus him. In fact arguing for the three people on his wagon.

Which day was it ... two or three, was over before I even got back to the thread. It must have started during night, my time, and when I checked in in the AM it was all done and dusted.

Garmr could have been bussing, then karnos imploded at which point it was impossible to get off before the wagon picked up steam.

Myself and shannon could be argued were hopping on when it picked up steam, despite us both heavily pushing him as well.

So I'd say all three of us could be on the wagon with possible scum motives behind it, the only knowledge all three of us have are our roles which we need to convince others of.

I've put my role out there but it's obviously not convincing anyone!

Day 2 was just Garmr and shannon that aren't flipped town or confirmed town at this stage, and that lynch was so quick I'm 100% scum was on it, so something is up there

Day 3 was myself and Lexa, and I again think scum were on here, so eliminating myself (solely for myself, not for others) means I deduce it must be Lexa. If any wagon had no scum on it I would argue it would be this one as Alisae was so scummy it would be easy for scum to avoid ad let the lynch happen naturally. However the recent Lexa stuff stops that I feel.

Speaking of which, I'd also like Garmr to explain the reasoning behind Roleblocker being a scum claim, I have a theory, but I want to see if it matches up with mine.

[shannon]

Could ScumGin not have had a role cop power that he used to give an accurate result on BBT?

[shannon]

Just letting you know: I might be about to lose power.

It's been on and off all day here too. I am also in WA, though Western Australia not Washington x

[shannon]

I don't think there's anything I can say to convince anyone that my claim is real, so I'm going to prodge from here on in, until someone decides to take it seriously and look at the other options.

((Additional crackpot theory: Prana knows that G+T's results and the VCA do exactly what she says, and points to her or lexa vs. me and garmr. But actually both she and lexa are scum. She's going to use lexa's flip to get town cred, then go after either of pep, gamr or me for the win. I've seen a similar strategy before))

[shannon]

Also VOTE: Lexa

L-1

If G+T is town then this is the right choice for today and partner is Prana or the guy who never posts.

If G+T is scum then we have lost anyway.

[shannon]

Oh for the love of god. UNVOTE:

I think this replacement thing might be adhering to the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it.

<<< I cannot replace a slot unless I have been given strong reason to know that slot is not in the game. If you can give me this strong reason, then I can replace Pepchoninga. "Pepchoninga hasn't posted in this many days" is not strong reason, given that Days 2 and 3 did not last long and the nights are 3-4 days long. If you can provide strong reason to me that Pepchoninga is not in the game, I can replace Pepchoninga. If you cannot provide me this reason, then I am forced to assume Pepchoninga is in the game until I am given said strong reason. A failure to respond to a prod is a strong reason. It is not the ONLY strong reason. But I, as the moderator, must use that as my method, unless I am presented a better one. >>>

Also the reason I said prodge is because I"ve said all I have to say. Me yelling MY CLAIM IS REAL is not going to go any further to anyone believing it. And there's nothing else I can say - you either trust me or you don't.

[shannon]

I am getting frustrated when you are calling my claim ATE because it's not, it's my actual role and actual night actions. There's nothing I can say to you that will show you that what I am saying is true, you are going to have to flip me to be sure. Even then, you've achieved nothing except killing a townie because I don't have investigative results.

You are talking about flipping me, gamr, and Lexa, and you if people don't trust you. That's a lot of flips to get through and I don't think we have that many lynches available. Certainly I can see no reason why scum would help us out by NKing any of those people now. (Why would scum not take out someone like TB or G+T instead if they are both town?) So I am asking you to take my claim at face value.

I jailkept TB because I thought something was up with him. But I couldn't tell whether it was a 'good' up or a 'bad' one, so I jailkept figuring it would either save him or stop him doing a NK.
In my Doc on G+T I told the mod that I had no idea what was going on any more. It was a gut decision after I found LQ lynched before getting to vote. I think my message to the mod even said something like 'Poor Lickety'
I bodyguarded G+T because at that point he had claimed results and had a shot left. I figured he would be targeted for the kill, but I would die instead. I thought my role would help people to guess what had happened. Obviously there were some flaws in my reasoning but saving what might have been conf town G+T was a good move still I think.

When G+T claimed I took his role seriously because it fits with my role. I can see how three JOATs in a game makes a theme, and also how his and my roles go together. Him investigating, me protecting him. But! Yes, I always look at whether people are fake claiming. I probably need to have a document where I work out the details and then abandon the theory if it's rubbish, instead of posting it in the thread and working it out on the fly. Nonetheless, posting in the thread is what I always do. If I'm right - and occasionally one of my crackpot ideas is actually not so crackpot - I want town to be able to consider it when I'm gone.

So. I think we've pretty much established that G+T is town, and therefore TB too. My next guess is Prana. He (sorry about She before) has this whole thing mapped out, and it looks a bit too convenient for me. He has positioned himself as an either/or choice with Lexa, who looks terrible based on G+T's result. If Lexa flips scum, town is going to look at either me or Gamr. If that's the choice then obviously I think Gamr. But I don't know that it *is* the choice. What about Prana himself? He hasn't claimed a role. What about Pep the Lurker?

Holy shit what if G+T is using his scum powers but claiming the results as town, and then Prana is interpreting those in a way that works for scum?

Also I want to point out that there have been two consecutive days of quick lynches where I haven't even got to post. Look at those wagons...

[shannon]

You know what, go for it.

I don't have the patience to try to break of a clique of fanatics.

Just make sure you lynch XnadrojX & Garmr, in that order, after me.

Hold on. This maybe something important to note. Karnos wanted to lynch/kill both Jordan (who died night 1) and Garmr. Might be useful sorting his slot

But given that Karnos flipped scum, is that actually telling us anything?

[shannon]

Comments on the final VCs of each day:

Garmr was first on both the Karnos wagon and the Lickety one.
Prana voted Karnos D1, then stuck with Alisae on both D2 and D3.
Think Big followed up his D2 vote on Alisae with a D3 vote on him.
Lexa and Gamr never vote together
Pep has never voted

Speculation on the vote counts:

If Gin, TB and I are all town (me via role, Gin via claim, TB via Gin's claim) then Prana and Garmr are the two options for scum on the D1 lynch - if indeed there were scum on it.

Garmr in 139 replies to my note that I've read something in to his tone by saying "Probably a little bit of natural style and something else(not scum or early game awkwardness.)"

Garmr's 627 looks like town to me. At that point (or any earlier point) he could have left the Karnos wagon by saying 'reads changed', but he stuck with it the whole time and then explained why the AA wagon meant Karnos was scum. He also explains how AA looks town. So Gamr I think is town.

That leaves me with Lexa, Pep and Prana. ((It also leaves me with Lickety's wagon being all town! Scum must have been rubbing their hands after that one)).

Alisae's wagon happened so quickly it's hard to say much about it.

Prana's 1118 sticks out to me though, in light of what he's said today. Specifically, this: "especially as

if Gin's claim is correct (I have no reason to doubt it at this point) we have three confirmed town in a block

, I'd be shocked if that doesn't reduce to two for tomorrow, (

would be dumb scum who didn't fire that way, but it does mean any protective roles should pick one of those three to protect, just do not specify who's being protected in thread, keep scum guessing

)"

I basically followed these instructions on my protect, and Prana is now trying to play it like I made up my action for town cred. So that's suss.

Lexa's voting looks a bit suspicious because with the exception of Alisae, she's always on someone who has almost 0 chance of being lynched.

If I had to put money on the team I'd say Lexa + Prana. Outside chance, Gin + Prana.


Final D1 count

karnos

- 7 (Garmr,

XnadrojX,

BlueBloodedToffee,

PranaDevil,

All Alone

, shannon, ThinkBig)

All Alone

- 2 (Lexa,

LicketyQuickety

)
PranaDevil - 1 (

Alisae

)

BlueBloodedToffee

- 1 (TheRealGin-N-Tonic)

XnadrojX

- 1 (

karnos

)

Not Voting - 1 (Pepchoninga)

Day 2 final vote count

LicketyQuickety

- 6 (Garmr,

All Alone, Alisae,

shannon, TheRealGin-N-Tonic,

BlueBloodedToffee

)

Alisae

- 2 (PranaDevil, ThinkBig)
Pepchoninga - 1 (Lexa)

Not Voting - 2 (

LicketyQuickety

, Pepchoninga)

Day 3 final vote count

Alisae

- 5 (PranaDevil,

BlueBloodedToffee

, ThinkBig, Lexa, TheRealGin-N-Tonic)
Lexa - 1 (

Alisae

)

Not Voting - 3 (shannon, Pepchoninga, Garmr)

[shannon]

Hi Titus!

[shannon]

Well I am happy that you think my claim 'would fit' and if you think I'm good enough at this that I can make up something like that then goody for me.

My 2c says Titus isn't re-reading she's only looking at VCs because VCA is everything.

[shannon]

This is fascinating!

[shannon]

Just checking in to say hi, if anyone has any Q's for me don't forget to ask them. Otherwise just letting Titus do her thing.

[shannon]

I have been thinking that scum probally have a rolecop as they would have no reason to kill allone after all the cases against him.

I would look for players who dropped there scum read of him day 2.

Scum has a role cop. Gin has claimed to have a role cop. Coincidence?

Also interesting that Gin is starting to change his read on Lexa based on Titus's VCA.

[shannon]

Cop, role cop, potayto, pohtahto .

[shannon]

You know I no longer believe your claim came from town so we are probably just going to go round in circles here.

[shannon]

OK, lynch me first and then Lexa.

If you are going to assume I'm scum and lynch me tomorrow, after Lexa today, we pretty much lose. At least if you lynch me first you get to consider the rest of the data in light of my actual flip, and not what you're assuming my flip will be.

If Lexa is scum it's clear she's not getting away with it, by my flip should at least show you that I acted like I said I did and that my thoughts on others are genuine.

There's also something you haven't considered yet: My claim is that I have protected Gin the past two nights. If I were scum, I would have instead killed Gin when he claimed, no?

[shannon]

Also, why is Lexa at L-1 when:

I was asked to unvote her earlier when I put her at L-1
We are all waiting to hear about Titus' VC, and Titus has indicated she thinks Lexa might not be scum
Gin, who you are all saying is conf town, is also starting to be a bit up in the air about Lexa

[shannon]

If I'm right and Gin is playing us then yeah Lexa is town. At the moment though frankly I'm throwing my hands in the air!

[shannon]

Also, why is Lexa at L-1 when:

I was asked to unvote her earlier when I put her at L-1
We are all waiting to hear about Titus' VC, and Titus has indicated she thinks Lexa might not be scum
Gin, who you are all saying is conf town, is also starting to be a bit up in the air about Lexa

Town posting or Lexa buddy.

I do have a couple concerns on Gin but they are role related.

If I were with Lexa I'd have bussed the hell out of her for town cred.

I think Lexa is a better lynch because:
1. He lied about his role (I am a firm believer in lynching all liars, that is unless a doctor or cop claims VT in order to investigate and avoid the NK);

So you're okay with lying if you think it's justified. Do you not think I was justified given my reasoning?

Given all we've discussed I think the best option is to

lynch shannon

, her claim being a functional cc to my claim makes it very unlikely we both are town

Be careful saying that, I'm going to flip town.


@Prana claim or get lynched. We don't have time for this BS.

[shannon]

Maybe it's my headache talking but I can tell there's a plan but not what the plan is. Seems like Gin and Titus are on the same page, so rad, let me know when to vote and who to vote x

[shannon]

Right, so if I am supposedly not a JOAT because it would be too much, in what universe do we accept your JOAT claim Titus?

[shannon]

I'll be waiting on input from Lexa, Prana, and Shannon before carrying on.

Good o

1. shannon

3. TheRealGin-N-Tonic
5. Titus

6. Lexa

8. ThinkBig

13. PranaDevil

I'm 80% sure Shannon is town. He claim checks out and makes sense from a town perspective. However, my paranoia comes from her throwing shades at Gin. My other paranoia is that throughout the game, I've had a fairly strong town read on Devil. What to do about that?

In this position, is it best for us to lynch or no lynch for Titus to get some results?

I don't trust Titus' results. Here is what I've seen so far, and stop me if I'm wrong.

Titus subs in to the game. Everyone is like OMG Titus, you'll save us through VCA! Which is great if Titus is town (even though I've seen her VCA be wrong as town) but terrible if she's scum. She starts out on her VCA exercise, and everyone follows along. If she makes a misstep, never mind, she hasn't read the thread, it's OK someone will tell her and she'll adjust.

Around the time where that all started, I'd claimed a JOAT role and Lexa had revised her claim. People are thinking hang on, no way are there three JOATs in play, surely Shannon is faking it. Surely Lexa is faking her claim, why not claim properly right at the start? Then Titus claims JOAT, and suddenly ... that's plausible? It's not rendering town completely OP to have her as JOAT #3, but it is to have me? And there's totally no way there could be four of us, so I must be lying? (Look back at when I claimed my role - why would I even fake claim there, as town or scum? Why not simply say nothing and continue to play? Now ask yourself the same question about Titus).

In this light, I can see why Prana didn't want to claim. I think he's wrong in his analysis of me/Garmr vs Prana/Lexa, not least because Garmr has flipped town and I'm town too. All-town wagons do happen. They happen often enough that even newbie me has seen a few.

I accept that my stuff about Gin came out of left field. I hope we can at least see, on principle, that it's possible for scum with enough info to fake claim a plausible town role. I trusted Gin's claim until people started going after me for fake claiming, it raised my heckles and I thought hang on, someone is playing me here. And that's what I think titus has done, with greater success. She's used her information and her reputation as a VCA-solver to take a position of authority that she doesn't deserve. It's very easy for her to claim three unused JOAT shots when her predecessor lurked out all game.

For my money, the team is Titus and Lexa.

[shannon]

I'm fucking annoyed Pep's slot got to not play the whole fucking game and now we're here.

+1

I'd advocate a No Lynch if it meant scum would be forced to kill a slot people are contesting about but in this case, there is no contesting TB and I

This is a somewhat fair point, but I remind you of my post last night in regards to the fact I'm not sure about things right now, meaning even shannon's stuff regarding your slot makes some sense to me now, thus I'm not sure if there are any definitive confirmed town in my head at the moment.

Likely town? Sure, but enough to bank the entire game on it? I'm not so sure. (and I can understand that if, indeed, you are town, this seems like me just going back on my previous certain view that you are town, but considering everything... it worries me, and I hoe you can appreciate that if you are town).

I still need to go over Titus as a whole, but I strongly feel her entry and pushing has not been for town's purpose, and the fact she basically had two buddies before she even replaced in, who were willing to side with her throughout the VCA even to the point of overlooking any and all contradictions and errors in judgement, and it's of absolutely no shock to me that you two were obv. town for all that time, which is why it's very interesting that prior to Garmr's wobbly you guys were obv. town and were easily town and as a block you could easily win... and now we hit MyLo (with the option of No Lynch for LyLo), she suddenly questions even your slot and only has TB as confirmed town, yet uses a really piss poor argument of "even if TB isn't we have to go through Gin to get at him" to answer it. We're at a point where we can't afford a mislynch... which means if Gin and TB are lying we've lost anyway, and if we're being directed elsewhere as well, how would we ever know?

Thus I feel like Titus is creating confusion from a no lynch, set it up so that TB is the "only logical one to die as he's the only confirmed town" based on solely her wording, and then attempt to use her "result" to direct us to someone else... perhaps "catching" a lying Gin who is no longer "obv. town"? Or "catch" a Prana that was obv. town right up until her entry?

everything just smells of bullshit and deciet and it's only because she has two lapdogs that she seems to have got away with it. I really, really want everyone to question Titus' slot here. Don't bother asking questions, she clearly hasn't read the thread and so actually playing mafia isn't her strong suit, but read her posts and question the motives behind them, which is what I'm doing shortly.

I think we are on the same page here

{Prana,

Jordan

}
{

Gin

,

Garmr

,

Lickety

}
{

Alisae

,

Karnos

, Lexa}
{

All Alone

,

ThinkBig

}

Pep isn't mentioned

Whoops! Shows what an impression the slot made.

@Titus, can you show me a town game where you based reads based off of VCA and you never actually read the thread?

I have only seen Titus use the 'not reading' thing when she subs in to a game, not when she's in the game from the start. It seems like the sort of thing she'd keep doing even as town, because it's so useful as scum (as today is showing).


Is No Lynch the official line?

If TB and Gin are scum we're done for anyway, so I may as well follow them, whether to doom or Glorious Town Victory.

[shannon]

VOTE: No Lynch

[shannon]

???

[shannon]

Doctors and roleblockers don't get PMs with any sort of result. So that's technically a rush to clear yourself.

I DONT UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS TITUS.

You claimed that Shannon targeting you would have known you were ascetic. That's not the case. Doctors do not receive feedback. If you died, she'd know her protection failed. But since you're living, Shannon knows nothing.

This is correct, I haven't received any result from the mod after using my actions, other than 'action received' type things.

Titus' play last night doesn't make sense to me.

[shannon]

Agh I keep having my points invalidated by posts that come up when I hit submit.

TL;DR: I think we should vote Titus today.

[shannon]

^^ So you've cleared me then Titus? I'm not mentioned in that last sentence (of previous post)

[shannon]

Thank you for the nice vote count Mastina.

<<< My pleasure. <3 >>>

I think we don't need them all the time if no one is voting <3 Give yourself a little rest x

<<< But...I'm an obsessive compulsive worker! Even now, I'm working on my next game to mod! >>>

[shannon]

^^ You say that but I've never actually seen your VCA work! (Maybe playing with me is the limiting factor)

[shannon]

I have to go adult for a few hours, damn job.

[shannon]

If we lynch you, then tomorrow we go to night with 4 alive.

If you kill me, scum get confirmed in Gin/Lexa with Shannon having hammer. Not great odds.
If you kill Shannon, then I track Lexa. The situation becomes me/Lexa v Gin, and I just beat you in a 1 v 1 while calling the scumteam. Not good odds.
If you kill Gin, then I track Lexa. Situation is the same, as the second, but different hammerer.

Why aren't the odds of me choosing between Gin and Lexa good? Just FYI, whoever is doing whatever, I will 100% hammer Lexa if we're in 3P together with Gin.

Are you tracking Lexa no matter what?

I know you're good at VCA, but given I don't know your alignment, I can't trust it.

+1

[shannon]

No, god no, I don't believe Titus one iota!

[shannon]

Good job scum, you played well and we didn't deserve the win. The site flake and mod kills didn't help but we definitely had room to improve as a town.

My failings, in particular, were that I got bogged down in seeing Titus as a faker, but you're right, scum would have called for replacement of the slot much earlier than Pep actually got replaced. I also maintained a town read on Prana even though my gut was saying something wasn't right about how he was interacting with Titus. Probably most glaringly, I used my powers to absolutely no effect.

Is there anyone reading this who is willing and available to coach me a bit on my town game? I've just updated my wiki, and while I'm 4/4 as scum (including three perfect wins), I'm only 2 from 11 as town Clearly there are deficiencies in my town game but I'm blind to what I don't know.

[shannon]

/pre-in Mastina

Shannon, I am. I love helping people.

I also am modding a unique variant on hydras. Each head can only post per given day. No hydra account. It's in the marathon queue but if the timing is off, I will run as a micro. Comods are awesome too as VC help is awesome.

Really? Thank you!

How do we get started?