Mini 543 - Election Day - Game Over!

[opie]

/confirm

[opie]

I will actually be out of town for the holidays until December 27.

[opie]

I agree with being transparent in who we are voting for. If we hide who we are voting for, that might inhibit the overall hunt for scum. I we do not inhibit ourselves, I think who we will vote for will be fairly obvious anyways.

I also think that we should not be randomly throwing votes for immunity. In a regular game of mafia random votes can put pressure on people when accused which can lead to informative reactions. Random votes for immunity do not put similar pressure so I don't think the two concepts should be equated.

I think if we concentrate on who is the most suspicious, the least suspicious will become apparent and that is who should be awarded immunity.

[opie]

I know its the holidays and all, but Qman has been pretty quiet since he confirmed. Would a prod be warranted?

[opie]

Also, will we get immunity counts and open poll counts periodically?

[opie]

I think Akonas self-vote for immunity is a bit of a null tell at the moment, I can see why both town and scum would want immunity and would try to vote for themselves. However, his OMGUS reaction does not sit right with me. He did call for random accusations and starting somewhere. The moment farside22 did so, Akonas went OMGUS which isn't really helpful. I don't know if this is enough to warrant a vote yet, but it does seem a bit suspicious.

[opie]

Okay, I'm not sure if I follow you Akonas. Do you have any reason to suspect farside22 and hasdgfas as a scum pair other than the fact that they are have both been suspicious of you? And if you are sure that both are scum, then why did you single out hasdgfas over farside22 for your vote?

[opie]

I don't think there is anyone that is worth a vote for immunity at this point.

[opie]

Akonas, why would you think that the rest of us would assume you and Holy to be a pair? I can't speak for others but it is not an association I considered until you mentioned it.

[opie]

Just a few words in response to Shanba. (Welcome by the way!)

opie has done

little scumhunting

and has been moslty engaged in theoretical discussion

Emphasis mine. I would just like to point out that we are only on page 4 of this thread. I'm not sure how much scum hunting is expected of me at this point. And with regards to the theoretical discussion, there are some unique and novel game mechanics involved and I think a lot of my theoretical discussion as well as others has been trying to figure out the best way to play this game.

Now it seems strange to me that opie would wait two days before asking the question in the first post. The only reason I can see is that someone else brought up that point before her: Rigel. Her parroting of his point seems strage in itself, but what worries me more is hasdgfas' reaction, in which he credits opie with the point. Clearly, she is gaining credit for others work. I'm beginning to see this as a scumtell after various games.

First I'll note that I'm a

he

and not

she

. That aside, I did ask Akonas why he thought we would assume he was partners with Holy after Rigel mentioned it.

And

I did so

because

Rigel mentioned it. I don't deny that. I didn't feel that Rigel flat out asked Akonas what his reasons were. So I did. With regard to hasdgfas comment, I'm not sure how that can be considered against me. I asked a question. It piggy-backed off of Rigels comments. I didn't claim anyone elses work. Plus hasdgfas agreed with me that he didn't consider Akonas and Holy as a pair before Akonas brought it up. Which is not something Rigel said. I'm not sure how any of this is a scum tell.

[opie]

As of Post 96 here are the post count totals:

opie 10
mcpaltp/Shanba 4
hasdgfas 9
Boggzie 5
ibaesha 3
Holy 10
Rigel 3
farside22 13
Akonas 8
QuickBen 5
Qman 3

Six out of the eleven players in this game have five posts or less. And those include confirmation posts! I have noticed a few suspicious things from the active players, but you asked me who I believe to be scum. The things is, I have no idea who would be scum at this point and I don't want to speculate until I hear more from the other players in this game. I feel like the active players are starting to focus on the other active players which could be detrimental to the town. I don't presume that all the scum are to be found amongst the active players.

I am curious, farside22, why did you chose to focus this question on me and Qman?

[opie]

Eh, fair enough. It just seems to me that the game should be beyond that point b now. TBH, I haven't really checked how much scumhunting others have done.

If that is true, then why would you criticize my scumhunting? That seems like a reckless redirection of suspicion.

[opie]

I don't see how that is useless rhetoric:
-You said that I had done little scum hunting.
-You used that as a basis to vote for me.
-You admit that you had not checked to see how much others had done in this game.

Here's why I think that's reckless. When I make these types of accusations, I want to be able to stand behind them. Otherwise I'm focusing suspicion on someone who may not deserve it. And that's bad for the town. This kind of play is either sloppy or scummy.

See, two can play at that game.

What game are you talking about?

[opie]

I don't think Shanba isn't doing a meta analysis based on my game style. I think he's applying his observations of others in past games and applying them to me. Which I disagree with to a degree but I have a feeling that that is something we'll just have to disagree about. I've responded to his accusations and I'll let others decide what they think.

In the interest of sparking some discussion and letting people know where I stand, here are a few things I found suspicious so far:

Post 46 -- farside22 points a FOS at Akonas because of his self-immunity vote.
Post 55 -- Akonas claims that we need to make unfounded accusations and attacks farside22 for doing just that.
Post 56 -- ibaesha votes immunity for mcpaltp. Its a non-random vote and mcpaltp had only posted three times. One of which was a confirmation post.
Post 68 -- Akonas tries to create two pairs hasdgfas/farside22 and himself/Holy.
Post 92 -- Shanba argument against me. I've adressed this before. Seems a bit of stretch to me. Shanba admits its a bit of stretch. OMGUS could be a major source of suspicion however.
Post 96 -- farside22 only asks Qman and I who we think might be scum.

I would like to stress that these things made me suspicious when I first read them and they do not all carry equal weight. I am not saying that I think these people are scum, which is what I believe farside22 originally asked me, but simply things that raised eyebrows.

Of the list above, the one that has the biggest flag is Akonas' Post 68. Trying to create pairs like that unnerve me. It seems to me that it would be advantageous for scum link themselves up with townies. Its a strategy I've seen before and I wonder if this is a clumsy attempt to do just that.

But at this point I'm the most suspicious of Boggzie, Qman, QuickBen, ibaesha and Rigel. As I've said before, I doubt that we'll find all the scum among the five or six most active players. I have a hard time believing all the scum would be so active with so many silent townies. I don't see how that would benefit them. Therefore I'm convinced that at least one of those players is scum. The problem is, at this point, I just don't know who.

[opie]

I agree with you about Boggzie's post. I don't know if I would characterize it as an overreaction but it is rather confusing especially this line:

I don't like the implication this early that the vote was scummy.

I just can't figure out what he's responding to here. Boggzie can you shed some light here?

I disagree with you about Qman though. He's only posted three times. His first post his confirmation. His second post is a "check in" post. His third post he makes two insights on players which have been made by others and then he goes back to discussing how we should play the game well after we had moved on from that topic. What did you feel you got out of his posts.

[opie]

I did too!

[opie]

Shanba, I think QuickBen may be refering to this:

But at this point I'm the most suspicious of Boggzie, Qman, QuickBen, ibaesha and Rigel. As I've said before, I doubt that we'll find all the scum among the five or six most active players. I have a hard time believing all the scum would be so active with so many silent townies. I don't see how that would benefit them. Therefore I'm convinced that at least one of those players is scum. The problem is, at this point, I just don't know who.

I agree that lurkers can be easy targets and that lurking is not sure evidence of being scum. However, I still stand by my contention that when the dust settles either Boggzie, Qman, QuickBen, ibaesha or Rigel will turn out to be scum. I just don't see how it would benefit scum to all be so active when there are so many non-active. Which is why I find QuickBen suspicious when he says that he had nothing to say for a week and a half. Unlike ibaesha who apologized and said she had computer problems.

Please note that I am not saying

all

the scum are lurking, but I'm sure at least one is.

[opie]

Since we are nearing election day, I agree that it would be a good idea to let people know who you intend to vote for.

If I had to vote today, it would be for hasdgfas. He hasn't posted much but enough not to be in danger of being replaced and what he has posted hasn't had much substance.

I continue to be suspcious of Akonas. Primarily for the way he tried to form pairs. I'm not sure if it's enough to warrant a vote, but enough for me to keep an eye on.

Also if I had to vote immunity, it would be for farside22.

(And just a note. I'm a

he

not a

she

)

[opie]

I noticed something in hasdgfas’ Post 174. He quoted Akonas from Post 23. hasdgfas focused on multiple anti-groups. But what I hadn’t really paid attention to before was where Akonas asked if anyone had any interesting night leads. This seems like a bit of rolefishing.

[opie]

Not to keep rehashing the mechanics discussion, but since Elias_the_thief is new and brought it up. One of the reasons that I agreed with keeping our voting transparent was to be able to apply pressure and get some discussion going. As has been said before, with out random votes on Day One it is difficult to put pressure on people to see how they react. Even thought our "votes" don't count, I think it has been more helpful than talking in general suspicious terms.

With Day Two, maybe we could do things differently, but I like being transparent for Day One.

That said, I'm starting to think that Akonas might be a better lynch. I’ve had my suspicions about him before, but with the recent revelations of bringing up the possibility of more than one scum group and role fishing further add to it. I need to think about it a bit more but my vote will be for one of those two.

[opie]

And since I haven't done this yet and we are close to deadline:

Immunity: farside22

[opie]

Obviously I'm fine with my vote for farside22. And I understand the votes for Shanba. But the votes for QuickBen and Qman have me scratching my head.

[opie]

Rigel, here is the game Elias_the_thief was refering to:

Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens

That game was modded by Rishi and included:

hasdgfas
Elias_the_thief
Spider Jerusalem
mcpaltp
Boggzie
opie

In that game Elias_the_thief and hasdgfas were scum partners. Spider Jerusalem was killed Night One.

[opie]

The only vote that really stood out to me was Rigel's. His vote for hasdgfas seemed incongruous to what (little) he had said earlier. Because of that, he was going to be my top scum candidate going into today.

I'm going to have to do another reread.

I too would like to hear from Gorgon to hear his thoughts on the game thus far.

[opie]

Okay, reread done, made possible your you friendly neighborhood blizzard.

Here are some initial thoughts after Day One/Night One. Now that hasdgfas turned up scum, I can't ignore Akonas' comments regarding the farside22/hasdgfas connection. Here are the connections that I see as significant (many, if not all of these points have been made by others, Akonas in particular):
Post 26 farside22 random votes immunity for hasdgfas

Maybe not so random?

After Akonas's self-immunity, hasdgfas and farside22 are the first two players to vote for immunity

Focusing on who's not scum rather than who is

Post 52 hasdgfas confronts Holy's comments on farside22's FOS at Akonas with WIFOM.

Could be considered hasdgfas defending farside22

Post 62 hasdgfas votes immunity for farside22

Building scum partner support?

Post 96 farside22 "votes" for hasdgfas

Occurs after Akonas draws a connection between the two. Is this a distancing vote?

Post 148 farside22 lists his top three scum candidates as Qman, Boggzie, QuickBen

Noticibly absent from this list: hasdgfas

Post 167 farside22 new list of top scum are hasdgfas and Boggzie

Not sure why hasdgfas disappeared and returned

Post 222 farside22 vote would be for QuickBen
Post 231 farside22 would vote for QuickBen or hasdgfas

Those last few posts I note because farside22 kept leaving hasdgfas and coming back to him. These things filtered through farside22's pushing people who they would vote for could be considered sticking his finger in the air to determine if there truly was a hasdgfas wagon growing, which would be difficult to tell because of the game mechanics.

That said, farside22 has done a lot to move this game forward which is why I voted for him for immunity. As of now if I had to gamble, I would pick farside22 as pro-town, but these things I noted make me slightly uneasy and will be in the back of my mind as we proceed

I also remain suspicious of Akonas but a little less so. There still exists the same concerns I mentioned in Day One but upon rereading, I think he has helped move discussion forward and he was on the hasdgfas wagon.

Wait what?! opie, why would that count for Akonas but against farside22? Well, Akonas attack on hasdgfas came too early, was too focused, and too harsh I think to be considered a distancing tactic or a bus tactic.

I'm also suspicious of QuickBen. First is his lurky behavior. In Post 28 he wanted to keep voting a secret. But in Post 89 changes position because he misunderstood the rules. In Post 151 in response to accusations of lurking, says that he's been around but hasn't had anything to say. But when pressed in Post 153 calls me out for attacking lurkers. In Post 187 votes immunity for Holy. Explains in Post 196 responds that it is a gut feeling. None of this sits well with me. Other than Post 153 he has contributed little to this game.

Out of the others in the lurker class (Elias_the_thief, Gorgon, Qman) I find QuickBen to be the most suspicious. And with Elias_the_thief replacing and the death of Rigel, that class is getting smaller.

[opie]

I haven't forgotten Akonas. My biggest suspicion of him is that he tried to make the connections between you and hasdgfas and he and Holy. I did consider that it could have been a distancing move between he and hasdgfas, but if it is/was, they really sold it hard, plus really drawing attention to the two of them, which seems kind of risky for scum to put themselves out there that early, but on the other hand, you're right, it could have been a calculated move to get one or the other lynched Day One. Giving the other a bit of safety.

I'm not discounting this theory yet either, especially given my other concerns regarding Akonas. But I don't want to turn a blind eye to all possibilities.

[opie]

And, Elias_the_thief, I don't consider you a lurker, but I did consider you predecessor. That is why I included you in that group. I had an earlier posting where I singled out about Boggzie, ibaesha, QuickBen, Qman, and Rigel. I said I was pretty sure that scum could be found among those players.

That's what I was referring to. Instead of referencing Boggzie, I used your name similarly I said Gorgon instead of ibaesha. I said that the group of lurkers was getting smaller: 1) because you replaced in and 2) the death of Rigel. I don't think you have been lurky at all. I didn't mean it that way.

[opie]

I feel like this game is going a bit stale. We've only had meaningful posts from a few players. Again half the town is hiding in the shadows. It's been five real time days and we haven't heard anything from Akonas or QuickBen. (Would prods be warranted?) Qman posted only to promise to post. Again. And Shanba's one post was pretty inconsequential.

I'm not sure if it's the inability to vote for people during the day or what. If the votes were to be held today, QuickBen would have my vote. He has done nothing to contribute to this town. I don't want to repeat myself so for the other reasons see Post 248.

[opie]

@QuickBen: Really?! We've just had two deaths and not word out of you. You don't have

any

thoughts?
@Shanba: I listed a few things in Post 248 re: the connection between hasdgfas and farside22

[opie]

Holy, why do we have to ask?

[opie]

Did I miss something? Who is your current suspect Holy?

[opie]

Holy, you say that your are not that type of player, but so far this day, that's all you've been. Your earlier response said nothing of being busy, just that you didn't want to reveal your top suspect because its only based on guts.

I must say, your playstyle today makes me suspicous.

FOS: Holy

[opie]

I don't have the post reference handy either, but in Mini 515 - The Pine Barrens both hasdgfas and Elias_the_thief were scum partners. However, when this game started Elias_the_thief was not in this game. He replaced Boggzie (who also happened to be in Mini 515). Further, if Rishi is assigning roles randomly we should not presume too much.

[opie]

Gorgon, there have been two night phases. There was Night 0/Day 1/Night 1/Day 2.

[opie]

Okay, I've been doing a re-read of Day 2 so far to see where I stand on this farside22/Elias_the_thief debate. I have a few comments but I am a bit confused by a few things.

@farside22: In Post 271 you included Elias_the_thief as one of three players that stand out. On re-read the portion following "His vote against Hascow was gut and..." leave me a bit confused.

@Elias_the_thief: Post 291 struck me a bit odd. You critize Gorgon's argument for being a WIFOM argument, but then you defend against his accusation of you by offering what seems to be a WIFOM argument of your own. I think this is what farside22 was refering to with is "hypocritical much" comment in the next post.

Lastly, Posts 297-300 in my notes just have ???? written next to them. Can somebody tell me what's being discussed there? I have a feeling that there was a bit of breakdown in the communication

@Akonas: Why "vote" with no comments? "Votes" don't mean anything until election day, so "votes" without any explanation are even less useful. Is there a reason behind it because reviewing your last posts from today do not offer much of an explanation for it either.

[opie]

I've been stewing on this farside22/Elias_the_thief thing for the last few days now and to me it just seems like at lot of back and forth. Which would be okay, but I don't feel like anything new is being mentioned, its just back and forth, back and forth. What worries me is that it has totally dominated the conversation the last few days. And ultimately, I think each raises some good points, but I not particularly persuaded by either case at this point.

QuickBen and Shanba has been prodded? We haven't heard anything, should we be expecting replacements soon?

[opie]

Hey guys, I just wanted to notify that I may be V/LA until 19 Feb.

[opie]

Hey guys!

Welcome Mgm. I'm a little confused by your case against farside 22 in Post 349. farside22 quoted Akonas's entire Post 55 and then commented. He then asks Holy a question based on (I believe) Post 57. I'm not sure where he is presenting a weak case or not paying attention.

[opie]

I agree with Shanba that we need to see some more content Shanba, Holy and Qman.

If I had to vote now it would be for Mgm.

One thing bothered my about what Elias_the_thief said in Post 374. He critizes farside22's vote for Mgm after only one post. But I think it's important to remember that before Mgm was QuickBen who's behavior alone could justify a vote in my opinion. Mgm's first post really only added to that. It seemed to me that Mgm seemed to be trying to add some really

really

weak evidence to the farside22 case. It also bothered me that Elias_the_thief was so quick to jump to the OMGUS argument. First, I think that farside22 made it clear that his vote was also in part due to QuickBen's behavior. Second, if farside22 was so eager to vote OMGUS why would he not be urging a wagon on Elias_the_thief.

[opie]

Dude...It was just his thoughts after reading 4 pages. Are you telling me he shouldnt post his thoughts because theyre too "weak"?

No. But that doesn't mean I should ignore that he is pushing a bad case.

[opie]

First, I'm in another game with Ectomancer. So, sorry for the slip up.

Second:

hes not pushing a bad case dumbass.

Classy.

I used the term case because it came with a "vote". I didn't get the impression that it was merely something he noted. There wasn't any qualifies when he posted it.

[opie]

farside22, I believe I stated earlier that if I had to vote today, it would be for Mgm.

[opie]

I would vote for Mgm because of QuickBen's past behavior. Mgm's posting so far has done nothing to dissway my scummy impression.

[opie]

Shanba, I found a number of things about QuickBen to be suspicious. First and foremost was his lurking. Also the content of his posts. I never felt comfortable that he had nothing to add at one point. And his last three posts were completely worthless. He never seemed interested in helping the town flush out scum. The only player he was critical of was me, and that was for calling out lurkers. Since Mgm's replaced, I haven't seem much tilt the scales. Mgm is still top of my list for scum at this point.

Shanba, you stated that you prefer to anchor your reads and that you would prefer a clear read on a town. There isn't anybody at the top of your list as to who might be town?

Gorgon, I know my activity level has dropped somewhat in the last few real time days, but I still feel that I have been pretty active, especially in the beginning to this day. Part of my lack of activity is that I have been transferred at my job but also because I felt that that the farside22/Elias_the_thief back and forth suck a lot of oxygen out of the room. I commented on it as much as I thought was necessary and there was little participation by others.

Immunity: Akonas

Last time, I voted for farside22, I still consider him to be pro-town but the connection to hasdgfas, for whatever it's worth has down graded him in my opinion. My vote for Akonas is based on the fact that I've gotten pro-town vibes from him and since he is not a target to be lynched today, I am not thwarting anyones lynch votes.

[opie]

farside22, who is it that I've backed down regards. I'm a little confused by that part of your case against me.

With regards to the connection between you and hasdgfas and farside22. I didn't say much about it Day One admittedly, but when hasdgfas can up scum, I reevaluated that connection. I'm not sure why this is a scum tell.

And with regards to how I feel about you, I don't think it's changed all that much during Day Two. I still put you in a pro-town category. I said so in Post 450, but I do think there maybe something to the connection that Akonas pointed out, so I can't say that I see you as the most town player. I'm not sure really what you are building a case against me upon.