Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Avast mates!

Arrr I be putting an FoS on Phate an' SensFan fors not casting th' traditional random vote on thier first posts.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Ahhhh Lassie, but I am!

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Pirates do not say Lassie

Ifing he be a Scottish pirate, he might.

Ok, on a serious note:

What the hell is going on? Wonderful way to start off the game, guys!

I, personally, find the first day to be completely useless. It's happened many times: tons of discussion, just to get back where we started, and in the end we all just vote for no lynching.

On the first day, I think it'd be best to not lynch at all. If we just take out a random guess, we could end up hurting ourselves in the process.

I'm not voting for it just yet, to see if any discussion can be born from this; but seriously, stop voting randomly for idiotic reasons.

Idiotic voting has its place. Overreacting to an early "idiotic" vote can be a newbie mafia tell. Also as most, if not all, of us don't know each other, seeing each others reactions early in the game help us to get a feel for each other. For example, I personally find it of interest that Mills cast his vote in a very safe place. By his own admission, on someone who won't be able to fight back. Is this a mafia tell? Or does he just wish to avoid confrontation? I don't know, but as you can see there is potential to learn something from random votes. Egruntz's post also tells us about him. He seems to be taking this game a bit more seriously than others. Nothing wrong with that. That proves nothing one way or the other about his status, but we do learn something about the person on the other side of the screen. As long as we continue to post, we build on the knowledge we gain from each other. The real harm to the game is not first day "idiot" votes, but lurkers.
Now back to the fun.

Vote: SnapsThePirate because his posts make me laugh really hard.

Thank ye for th' complimant mate!

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I be most likely ta be voting for disciple slayer this round.

He has been lurking and bandwagoning. Both very common mafia tells. He has not contributed to the discustion at all. He has two posts in this thread, both are bandwagon votes with no statement. Of course, this early in the game you could make the argument that he was just casting out some random votes to get discussion going. However, other than a few bandwagon votes, he has done nothing else to further discussion. Now that the game has started in ernest, it is time for him to start sharing his thoughts. There is no reason for an innocent to lurk.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Unvote

Vote: Disciple Slayer

the Village Idiot

I refer you to his generally unhelpful posts in this thread and this game (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6636) where he manages to also be a retard. Also he seems to be lynched a lot on Day One so let's not break the trend!

I agree with Mills that Disciple Slayer is being unhelpful, and that pointless bandwagon votes without contributing discussion is pretty scummy looking. However, his scumminess seems to me to be way too obvious. What mafia would give such blatent tells? On the other hand, what townie would? If I were to hazard a geuss right now, I would say that Disciple Slayer is a mafia attempting to hide in plain sight. Perhaps, he thinks that such obvious tells would incline us to belive that he is not mafia after all. I will be reserving my vote until after Disciple Slayer attempts to explain himself.
Dispite my own suspicions of Disciple Slayer, I find Mills post suspicious, especially his last sentence. I don't have anything against meta gaming, but I feel its wrong to lynch players solely on past games. To me this looks like a mafia attempt to start an easy bandwagon.

egruntz is trying very hard to be helpful to the town.

Sometimes a player that appears to be trying too hard to help the town, actually

is

trying to help the town. I get the feeling this is the case with Egruntz. There has been much make of his seeming "newness", yet he tells us he has played before. Mafia playing up newbie tells to gain a bit of FoI is ploy that has been used before.

Currently my highest suspicions are Disciple Slayer and Egruntz. We have a few lurkers as well, and they always have my suspicion. However, I am willing to give a few more days before calling them out, as this is a busy time of year and I'd like to give them the benifit of the doubt.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Forgot to include my thoughts on Bookitty and The Fonz.

They seemed to have taken opposite sides on the "Egruntz" issue. Sometimes when two players take opposing veiws other players assume that one MUST be a mafia and one MUST be innocent. What is usally the case, however, is that both are innocent with differing ideas, or they turn out to both be mafia trying to polarize the townies. In my opinion, day one is too early to try this gambit, even for experienced players, as they would not yet had a chance to talk and work out a plan.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

egruntz is trying very hard to be helpful to the town.

Sometimes a player that appears to be trying too hard to help the town, actually

is

trying to help the town. I get the feeling this is the case with Egruntz. There has been much make of his seeming "newness", yet he tells us he has played before. Mafia playing up newbie tells to gain a bit of FoI is ploy that has been used before.

Currently my highest suspicions are Disciple Slayer and Egruntz.

So in summary: You think egruntz really is trying to help the town, but you also think he might be mafia.

Fair enough, that post does seem to be saying two differnt things. We start the game knowing only are own status. (Assuming towieness) There fore everyone else is viewed with the same amount of suspicion. As the game progresses our suspicion of certain players raises or falls based on what we read. Being day one, everyone seems normaly suspicious, except Disciple Slayer who I am very highly suspicious of, and Egruntz who has only a wee bit more suspicion because he MAY be playing up newbie tells, but I am not convinced he is. Basicly what I was trying to say is that I feel he really is tring to help the town, but his actions bear watching. What I should have said in the above post is:

My highest suspicion is Disciple Slayer, and I will be keeping a close eye on Egruntz to see is he continues to play the clueless newbie

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I really don't know what to make of Disciple Slayer. His first three posts in this thread are casting blatent bandwagon votes. Then he has this one:

I did a quick reread, and I'm not happy with how Bookitty jumped on egruntz for mentioning the term "No Lynch". egruntz wasn't really pushing for one, he just mentioned it. It seems like the sort of thing scum would do on day one: push for a mislynch on someone for nothing at all, really.

What jumped out was his comment that Egruntz wasn't really pushing for a no lynch. This is because when I read his (Egruntz) post, it seemed to me, that he was in fact pushing for it. However, going back and rereading it, I could see that you could interpet Egruntz post the way Disciple Slayer is suggesting. Disciple Slayer's remaining posts in this thread have been snarking with Mills.

So far, Disciple Slayer, has been pretty unhelpful. The only exception seems to be the above mentioned post about Egruntz, which , at least for me, presented a different way of looking at Egruntz's original post.
Disciple Slayer is far and away the most suspicious player in the game. I hesitate to place my vote just yet, because he seems a little too obvious. I belive a mafia would be far more careful to make his posts non-suspcious. However, I see no benifit to a townie to make himself such an obvious target, so it may all be a double bluff.

I would certainly prefer to see more posts like the one I quoted above, than the unhelpful snarkfest we are currently getting from Disciple Slayer and Mills.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

What kinds of roles are 'more' typical in the New York games?

I'd assume the following are certainly possible:
Vanilla
Cop
Doctor
Vigilante
Mafia
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Godfather
Serial Killer

"Miniamlly Flavored" indicates that there are SOME roles but not many. As we are in the New York thread they will most likely be basic roles. I have to agree with Mills list of possible roles. Though I doubt we have a Serial Killer or Vigilante, we will have to wait and see if we get multiple night kills to confirm if I am correct. Personally, I'm thinking "minamlly flavored" means we have a doctor and a cop.

I think it's a bit of both, maybe he plays a different style at other sites. Also, he might be scum trying hard to be a townie, or townie trying to affirm his allignment with everyone else. I'm personally leaning towards the latter right now, but not by a long shot (say, 45% for A and 55% for B)

Liamcool is starting with the aussumtion that the chances that any one person is a mafia is 50/50. This is incorrect. If there are 2 mafia the odds are only 1 in 8(12.5%). If there are 3 mafia the odds are 1 in 6(16.6%). If there are 4 mafia the odds are 1 in 4.5(22.2%). In other words well below 50%. Like The Fonz says, if Liamcool REALLY thinks there is 45% probability that Egruntz is mafia he should vote for him. However, I don't think that is what Liamcool was really trying to say.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I did a bit of number crunching to see if we could identify our lurkers.
Counting the numer of each players posts, I got these results:\
Bookitty - 11
DiscipleSlayer - 7
Liamcool - 12
Phate - 1
Mills - 17
DarkErmac - 5
Mariuccifamily - 0
TheDragonPrincess - 3
Panzersager - 5
The Fonz - 8
Patch15 - 0
Sensfan - 1
Sangy - 4
CuriousKarmaDog - 4
OhGodMyLife - 8
Egruntz - 8
Xylthixlm - 20
Snaps The Pirate - 9

As you can see, we have a large variation on the amount of posts per player. Those with the lower numbers are hurting the town. When innocents lurk, it becomes easier for mafia to lurk. When EVERYONE is active, the mafia is forced to be active posters as well in order to remain inconspicuos. We want the mafia to post. The more they post the more pressure is on them to come up with reasonable-sounding arguments that, ultimatly, are flawed. This gives the town a better chance of finding them.
I know some of the lower posters will respond "I don't post if I have nothing new to say", but even if you repeat your previous arguments, or even just post fluff, we will be better off than you not posting at all.
Mafiascum is a "social" game. Everyone needs to be active, or it just doesn't work.

Looking at our lowest posters:
Phate and Sensfan both have one post each, but said they were going to be busy until after New Years. I expect their activity to pick up after that.
MariucciFamily and Patch15 both have no posts, and will probably be replaced. Perhaps they also are busy, and will join us after the holidays.



As of yet, my highest suspicion is still DiscipleSlayer. His obvious bandwagon votes and lack of contribution to the discussion really makes him seem like a mafia, and I can see no reason for an innocent to use such obvious mafia tells. I beleive he is a mafia hiding in plain sight.

Vote : DiscipleSlayer

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps_the_Pirate: More thinking, less typing, please. I can't find your actual ideas, especially when they change halfway through the post.

This puzzled me. I thought I was doing a pretty good job at expressing my thoughts. If anyone has any confusion as to what I post, please bring it to my attention, and please be specific. As for my "actual ideas", as it is still early in the game, I don't have many yet. I have not posted a whole lot yet (this is my eleventh post), but so far the ideas I have expressed are as follows:
1. Disciple Slayer is a lurker and bandwangoner, and seems the most likely candidate to be mafia yet. (posts #56,#72,#103)
2. Mills has aroused my suspicion by using aspects of another game to fuel his arguments against Disciple Slayer, at least at first. (post #72)
3. Egruntz's idea of no lynch on day one has put him on my watch list. (post #72,#81)
4. Lurkers, regardless of status, hurt the town. (post #131)

I have read and reread all my posts. The only one that seems like it may fit Xylthixlm's desrciption on my posts is #72. He already asked about that one and I reponded in post #81. If Xylthixlm can't find my "actual ideas", I am forced to wonder why? Is he not reading them? Does he not belive what I'm saying? Is he fishing for some reaction? Am I wrong, and they really are difficult to understand?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

still feel good with my gut vote on Mills currently

There is nothing wrong with going with our gut feelings. Sometimes, that is all we have to go on. However, it is very difficult to convince others that the gut feeling we may have is correct. Gut feelings are not random, SOMETHING caused them. If we make a statement based on a gut feeling, it would be helpful to try to figure out where it came from. The reason I bring this up is because a common mafia tactic is to use "gut feelings" as a screen to avoid having to post a real argument.

You are using six times too many words.

Snaps, you do use too many words

If my posts seem wordy, it is only because I want to be sure my point is clear and not misinterpreted.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Oh yeah, almost forgot!

Welcome to the game Hasdgfas.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

The last half page struck as huge distancing about non-consequental bullshit.

I have to disagree with Panzerjager here. Mills and Hasdgfas disagree on the content of Dark Ermac's post. (Post # 47). I find it very useful to discuss differences of opinion in this game. I can see both sides of the argument and I think both have valid points. What I find interesting is the silence of Dark Ermac. He is the one player who could clearly state which view point is correct, yet he has chosen to remain silent.
So far Dark Ermac has contributed very little to the game. In fact the post in question seems to be only worthwhile post he has made. His last post was on Dec 30:

Anyway, the Fonz and DS seem to be the most suspicious, but I'll go check over the previous few pages in a while.

He stated his suspicions, but gave no explanation. Dark Ermac is not helping find mafia with his lurking, or his unexplained suspicions. As a result, he has climbed my "suspicious persons list" to second place, after Disciple Slayer.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

All you've been doing since the beginning is bandwagon votes. Right now I believe that you are the most scummy, but I won't vote for you. I actually believe you to be a townie. It's hard to understand, but I've seen many games in which the idiot was lynched first, and just so happened to be town. So, everyone who is currently voting for DS: you can choose to either not lynch this townie, or you can lynch him anyway for fears of being taken advantage of by the mafia. Your choice.

This post seems to me like Dark Ermac KNOWS Disciple Slayer is a townie. How does he know this? Only the mafia is sure of everyone’s alignment. Everything Disciple Slayer has done so far looks suspicions. Yet, Dark Ermac, while admitting Disciple Slayer is acting scummy, he defends him. Why?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

All you've been doing since the beginning is bandwagon votes. Right now I believe that you are the most scummy, but I won't vote for you. I actually believe you to be a townie. It's hard to understand, but I've seen many games in which the idiot was lynched first, and just so happened to be town. So, everyone who is currently voting for DS: you can choose to either not lynch this townie, or you can lynch him anyway for fears of being taken advantage of by the mafia. Your choice.

This post seems to me like Dark Ermac KNOWS Disciple Slayer is a townie. How does he know this? Only the mafia is sure of everyone’s alignment. Everything Disciple Slayer has done so far looks suspicions. Yet, Dark Ermac, while admitting Disciple Slayer is acting scummy, he defends him. Why?

I got the same feeling reading DE's post initially but I was able to convince myself that it only

sounds

that way in the later sentences because in the first sentence he states that he believes DS is a townie (and carries out his post under that 'assumption' henceforth).

I can see what Mills is saying here, but Dark Ermac's next post still sounds like he knows with absoloute certainty Disciple Slayer's status.

It's better to think about the vote than it is to just vote for them because they seem scummy.

Believe me when I say this: he's town

. I may not be 100% accurate, but from past experiences

I know this.

(bold mine)
As I said before,

only mafia

knows for certain who is mafia and who is town.
FoS Dark Ermac

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Ahoy mates.
Sorry I haven't been around lately. Real life has kept me busy for the past few days.

Welcome to the game Eteocles.

Disciple Slayer was my strongest suspect. Common sense would say that mafia would be careful to hide any tells, so anyone being obvious must be town. The problem with this type of thinking is that it encourages scummy behavior making it even more difficult to distinguish scum from town. Everything Disciple Slayer has done has looked scummy. He has placed his vote on bandwagons with no explanation, refused to contribute anything meaningful and lurked excessively. My vote will stay put. Disciple Slayer dug himself into a pretty deep hole and Eteocles has inherited my suspicion of him.

Dark Ermac is my second highest suspect.

It's better to think about the vote than it is to just vote for them because they seem scummy. Believe me when I say this: he's town. I may not be 100% accurate, but from past experiences I know this.

I disagree with the first part of this post. If a person seems scummy we should vote for them. If we allow scummy actions from any player, then we are giving the mafia more hiding places. We need to use the first few days to strip away the places that mafia traditionaly hide. Lurking, mindless bandwagoning etc. The second part of this post, he says that he knows Disciple Slayer is town. How could he possibly know that? Only mafia could be so sure.

The way I word things is... I guess you could say it's a bit scummy, but that's just the way I type.

His defense is "I'm not scum, I just write that way" Pretty weak.

Mills attempts to defend Dark Ermac in posts 231 and 239.

Don't get me wrong - I think I was the first to jump on DE for some earlier post with the same problem - but I'm just not feeling it here. I don't think he's unequivocally saying that he knows that egruntz is town. I think he is saying that he knows (for lack of a better word). It's just something deep down inside that he knows to be true (or something he thinks he knows). He's just using the wrong word but its more the fault of the English language than his own.

I have reread Dark Ermac's posts over and over. I have to disagree with Mills. It doesn’t sound like he says he thinks he knows, it sounds like he knows.

I find it suspicious that Dark Ermac has yet to post how he knows or to confirm Mills theory that he only thinks he knows.
This isn't the only time he has failed to come forward and clear up what he is actually trying to say. See the exchange between Mills and Hasdgfas (posts 191 - 204). There was a misunderstanding of what Dark Ermac meant in post 45. Dark Ermac has had the oppertunity to explain, yet he chose not to.

I would be perfectly willing to change my vote to Dark Ermac from Disciple Slayer if it is needed to lynch him. Both are ultra suspicious in my eyes.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I sent this to Elias.

"Please replace me. I don't have the patience for the play styles on this forum (which for the most part seem to be 'disappear for several days at a time'). Sorry for any inconvenience."

Ultimately I suppose it doesn't concern me if you choose to think I'm lying and lynch whoever replaces in - I won't be posting again.

Good luck everyone.

Wow, I didn’t see that coming.
I didn’t have much suspicion on Mills, but I think Panzerjager is right. He appears to have had a pressure meltdown. The “attacks” on him were reasonable and not any more aggressive than his own.

Mills, if you are reading this, please grow some thicker skin before your next mafia game.

Yeah, I am feeling kinda lazy. Anyone want to fill me in on some key posts I should be paying attention to?

Posts like this do nothing to reduce my suspicion that was passed on to Eteocles from Disciple Slayer. Eteocles is still my highest suspect.


I see Dark Ermac still hasn’t responded to the questions I raised in post 305.


Snaps current FoS list in order of most suspicious:
Eteocles,
Dark Ermac,
Mill’s replacement



Snaps lurker list*:
Patch15 - 3 posts
DarkErmac - 5 posts
Curious Karma Dog - 7 posts
Sangy - 8 posts
Oh God My Life - 11 posts
Sensfan/? - 1 post
Disciple Slayer/Eteocles - 7 posts
The Dragon Princess/Xyzzy - 6 posts

These players have posted less than our mod in this thread. These players are seriously hurting the game. Obviously they can't all be mafia, but the innocents among them are making it easier for the mafia to lurk.

* I am willing to give the replacements the benifit of the doubt, as it was their predecessers who got them onto this list.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Why DS shouldn't even have votes.. When he was bandwagoning it was cause we(as a collective) were joking about bandwagoning to victory and everyone was all for bandwagoning.

Not quite, the joke voting period seems to me to have ended between posts 25 and 38. From that point on everyone seems to have started playing for real. Disciple Slayers first vote was definitely in the “joke period” and his second was in the “transitional period”. However, there was zero change in his style for the rest of his posts when the game started in earnest. He was voting for whatever bandwagon was leading, gave no explanation for his votes, and lurked. I still contend that he was a mafia trying to hide in plain sight.

His replacement seems to be a lurker as well. Coincidence?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I still feel that DS/Ecto is the strongest case for scum, but I will be willing to change my vote to Mills/Anti or DE as they both seem scummy to me.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one having problems with this site. About 90% of the time I try to log on to the site it's overloaded.

Anyhow -
Ahoy Vollkan. Welcome to the game!

Page 3

Mills is tossing up between DS for meta-reasons and Ermac for apparent defeatism in advocating a random lynch because mafia will cause a town lynch D1 anyway. Snaps echoes the anti-DS sentiment.

I just wanted to clear up this statement a bit. This statement could be interpreted as I was following Mills' lead on the Disciple Slayer issue. I have consistently stated my belief that Disciple Slayer was scum. His actions make zero sense if he was a townie. My suspicion of him was based solely on his actions in game, not on Mills' meta-comments.
That said, I am satisfied with my vote for Disciple Slayer/Eteocles.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Wow, THREE night kills?

I personally find vote and FoS history very useful in scum hunting, especially in the end game.
Here is a review of the votes and FoS from day one, in order that they were cast, as well as post count. Underlined votes are the ones that were standing at the end of the day.

Bookitty - 35 posts
Votes - Phate, TheDragonsPrincess, Egruntz, DiscipleSlayer, Mills,

Eteocles

FoS - SnapsThePirate

DiscipleSlayer / Eteocles (Back-up Cop) - 7 / 5 posts
Vote - OhGodMyLife*, SnapsThePirate*, TheFonz*,

Bookitty*

Liamcool - 19 posts
Votes - SnapsThePirate,

Eteocles

FoS - Mills, DiscipleSlayer

Phate - 19 posts
Votes - OhGodMyLife,

Mills

Mills / Antithesis (Claimed Cop) - 45 / 6 posts
Votes - MariucciFamily*, DiscipleSlayer*, CuriousKarmaDog*,

Eteocles

DarkErmac - 11 posts
Votes - Bookitty, OhGodMyLife

MariucciFamily / Hasdgfas - 0 / 21 posts
Votes - DiscipleSlayer,

Eteocles

TheDrangonsPrincess / Xyzzy - 3 / 5 posts
Votes - SnapsThePirate*, TheFonz,

Egruntz

FoS - DiscipleSlayer

Panzerjager - 33 posts
Votes - SnapsThePirate, TheFonz, Mills,

CuriousKarmaDog

Fos - Hasdgfas, DarkErmac, Everyone voting for DiscipleSlayer

TheFonz (Innocent Townie) - 26 posts
Votes - SnapsThePirate, Bookitty,

OhGodMyLife

Patch15 / Vollkan - 3 / 4 posts
Votes - Liamcool*,

Eteocles

Sensfan / Rishi - 1 / 6 posts
Votes - TheFonz

Sangy - 8 posts
Votes - TheFonz

CuriousKarmaDog (Innocent Townie) - 16 posts
Votes - Liamcool, Mills,

OhGodMyLife

Fos - TheFonz

OhGodMyLife - 15 posts
Votes - Bookitty, Xylthixlm, TheFonz, Mills, Xylthixlm, Mills,

CuriousKarmaDog

Egruntz - 17 posts
Votes -

DiscipleSlayer

FoS - Xylthixlm, DiscipleSlayer, Mills

Xylthixlm (Mafia Goon) - 71 posts
Votes - OhGodMyLife, LiamCool, Egruntz,

DiscipleSlayer

FoS - CuriousKarmaDog, Panzerjager

SnapsThePirate - 21 posts
Votes -

DiscipleSlayer

FoS - Phate, Sensfan, Eteocles, DarkErmac, Mills

* Votes cast before replacement

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

After reviewing day one, Dark Ermac seems most suspicious to me. He has nothing that jumps out as especially suspicious by it’s self, but a lot of little things that add up.

First, with only 11 posts, he is posting just enough to avoid attacting attention as a lurker, but not enough to contribute to the discussion.


Something that caught my attention was post 134:

Anyway, the Fonz and DS seem to be the most suspicious, but I'll go check over the previous few pages in a while.

He never came back to this and told us what about Fonz or Disciple Slayer he found suspicious.


Next, in post 47

Consider it this way.In any mafia game where the mafia aren't retarded, there's going to be a townie lynched on the first day. We might as well random vote rather than not vote at all.

In posts 191 through 201, Mills and Hasdgfas argued about whether Dark Ermac was endorsing a random lynch or not. What I find suspicious is the fact that Dark Ermac NEVER jumped in to explain or justify his own post.


Then in post 219, about Disciple Slayer

Right now I believe that you are the most scummy, but I won't vote for you. I actually believe you to be a townie. It's hard to understand, but I've seen many games in which the idiot was lynched first, and just so happened to be town. So, everyone who is currently voting for DS: you can choose to either not lynch this townie, or you can lynch him anyway for fears of being taken advantage of by the mafia. Your choice.

Here he does a complete turn around from “DS seems to be the most suspicious” to “I actually believe you to be a townie”. He gives no explanation for his change of mind. He takes it a step further in post 224.

Believe me when I say this: he's town. I may not be 100% accurate, but from past experiences I know this.

How could he have been so sure? Only mafia can know for certain anyone’s status this early in the game.


In post 226,

The way I word things is... I guess you could say it's a bit scummy, but that's just the way I type.

“I’m not scum, I just look like it” is a defense I will never buy.


In posts 231, 238, 239, and 305 Mills and I argue whether Dark Ermac knows Disciple Slayers’ status or only thinks he knows it. Again Dark Ermac fails to chime in to explain or justify his own post.


Next, in post 334

I just experienced Hell Week. I'm going to experience Hell Week Part II starting today.

In response,

Hell Week? For what sport? All the major Hell Week sports are over..

Yet again, no response from Dark Ermac.


Finally, his last post of day one:

I'm also in a few games for now, so I'm sorry if I ever mix something from one game into another.

Anyway, I don't know who to vote for as of now. Although some people come straight to mind (mills and ds), I'm hesitating to vote for them thinking that they may be a retarded townie who doesn't know what they're doing. If I vote someone I personally find suspiciously too townie, then I might be accused of scum.If I kill off an inactive, I might be killed for not even bothering to know who/what they are, but it might also help the game by getting rid of an inactive.

Finally, if I vote for a no lynch, it means an instant loss for the town, and we still get somone killed, so it's not town enough.

First an excuse for lurking. Then he mentions Mills and Disciple Slayer, both of whom had been replaced by that point, as possible votes. Obviously, he is not following the game very closely. Could he be just skimming because he is not searching for mafia? Perhaps he already knows who they are? This whole post sounds like he is far more concerned about how his vote will make HIM look, rather than trying to catch mafia.


All in all, there is no one thing that jumps out a screams “MAFIA” but there is a whole lot of little things that add up. Dark Ermac seems more like mafia to me than anyone else right now.

Vote: Dark Ermac.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Currently searching for replacement for Dark Ermac. I may need to find one for egruntz as well, though he has at least recieved his prod.

**sigh**
First Disciple Slayer and Mills, now Dark Ermac and Egruntz. Why do the persons I find suspicious keep getting replaced.

I did a reread of Xylthixlm. He was by far our most active player. I must admit that he had me compleatly fooled. On the surface his posts seemed genuine and helpful. However, now that we know his status, it appears that he was fishing. He had mild confrontations with most of the active players, perhaps to get a feel for who would he could form a bandwagon on. The players he ignored may be possible scummates. Only two players had

zero

interaction with Xylthixlm: Xyzzy/TheDrangonsPincess and Vollkan/Patch15.

I'm not investigation proof to my knowledge, so that basically means there's a Mafia roleblocker, right? Is there any other real possibility?

I can think of one other possibility. Antithesis could have lied to save himself from a lynch, and now is tring to give some creditability to that lie. However, this would be a stupid move if he was mafia. The real cop would investigate him and discover his status. I don't know him, but I get the feeling that Antithesis is not stupid. Noone has counter-claimed cop so I belive Antithesis' claim and I belive the mafia have a roleblocker.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I'm not investigation proof to my knowledge, so that basically means there's a Mafia roleblocker, right? Is there any other real possibility?

I took a look in the wiki under roles and came up with another possibility. Anitithisis may have been protected by a paraniod doctor, AKA a jailkeeper. Paranoid doctors roleblock as well as protect. A paranoid doctor may or may not be aware of his dual ability. https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps : Why would you assume it was a paranoid doctor... and not, just, say, a normal jailkeeper?

I'm not assuming anything. The only difference between the two seems to be that a jailkeeper is aware of his roleblocking ability and a paranoid doctor isn't. However, as I have stated earlier, I think we have a roleblocker. I only brought up the jailkeeper/paranoid doctor senario because we shouldn't discount any possibilities.



By the way, welcome to our little game Skruffs, and Korlash.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I only brought up the jailkeeper/paranoid doctor

senario

scenario because we shouldn't discount any possibilities.



Can't spell, sorry.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Why do Elias_the_Thief and Xyzzy have the same avatar? It makes it a bit confusing when scrolling through the posts. Could one of you please change your avatar please?

No.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Bah, you got me. I admit, I'm mafia. =/

Too easy!

unvote
vote egruntz

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Day two FoS and vote reveiw:

Bookitty - 2 posts
Vote - Egruntz

Liamcool - 1 post

Phate - 3 posts
Vote - Egruntz

Antithesis(Claimed Cop) - 3 posts

Korlash(Doctor) - 7 posts
Vote - Egruntz

Hasdgfas - 5 posts
FoS - Egruntz
Vote - Egruntz

Xyzzy - 2 posts

Panzerjager - 10 posts
FoS - Bookitty(retracted)
Vote - Egruntz

Vollkan - 4 posts
Vote - Eguntz

Rishi - 3 posts
Vote - OhGodMyLife

Skruffs - 9 posts

OhGodMyLife - 2 posts

Egruntz(Mafia) - 6 posts

SnapsThePirate - 8 posts
Vote - DarkErmac, Egruntz


Day 2 was shortened by Egruntz claim of mafia. Not as much discussion, but in my opinion a fair trade off.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Everyone knows that the best way for mafia to avoid making a mistake and giving themselves away is to avoid posting.
Xyzzy is doing just that. He has posted a grand total of 8 times in the entire game. On top of that his posts have not added very much to the discussion. Looks like mafia lurking to me.

Vote Xyzzy

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Question for Panz:

Is there a reason you voted for Phate? Did I miss it somehow? I don't recall you ever FoSing him or stating any suspicion about him before.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I'm going to chime in on the Skruffs/Rishi discussion. It is compleatly possible that Skuffs is correct, and Rishi is scum tring to gain some FoI by pointing out some usefull information. However, wouldn't an innocent townie do the same? I don't think saying "Hey, look at what I just found!" could be pigeon-holed in to scum or non-scum tell. To me it just says Rishi is either scum trying to look helpful or town trying to be helpful. Until we get more information we won't be able to tell whitch it is.

Still waiting for Panz to respond to my question in post 509. Unexplained votes make me suspicious. FoS Panzerjager

Still waiting for Xyzzy to repond to my post/vote 498. How is his lurking helping?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Xyzzy has not picked up his prod, but upon consulting the V/LA, I discovered that he is having trouble dealing with weather-induced house problems.

Well, I can cut some slack to someone having RL problems. I was voteing for him to get a response.

Unvote : Xyzzy

Of course, this doesn't let him of the hook. I expect to see more and better posts from him once he has his problems taken care of.

Another player I have noticed lurking is Liamcool. He hasn't posted much of either quantity or quality.

Vote : Liamcool

Of the other players who have votes against them, Rishi, OhGodMyLife, and Phate, none of them seem particularly scummy to me. Perhaps those who have cast votes could elaborate on their arguments?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Hey. I'll be low activity until next Monday and then no activity until Wednesday. Sorry for the inconvienience.

Bah! I missed this post somehow. Looks like RL has Liamcool too.
I'm going to let my vote stand for the time being. Liamcool has been a low poster and added little content for the whole game.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

If there truly are two scum groups, then looking at how people interacted with Xyl and Egruntz won't be all that helpful. It also seems really strange, considering their behaviour looked exactly like distancing to me.

It does look as if these two were distancing. However, now that we know that they are on two different scum teams (I don't see any other explanation for the names being different colors) then the logical conclusion is that Xyl was assuming that Egruntz was an innocent, one who looked like he was about to be lynched, and was trying to establish an FoI for himself.

I can't agree with Bookitty's statement that "looking at how people interacted with Xyl and Egruntz won't be all that helpful." Xly and Egruntz both have scumbuddies who knew their status. This is bound to affect the interactions between them.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Welcome back Xyzzy. Hopefully we’ll be seeing some contribution from him now.

Everyone knows that the best way for mafia to avoid making a mistake and giving themselves away is to avoid posting.
Xyzzy is doing just that. He has posted a grand total of 8 times in the entire game. On top of that his posts have not added very much to the discussion. Looks like mafia lurking to me.

My lack of posting has been due to non-mafia issues. If you'll notice, I post more heavily on the weekends than during weekdays. This is no coincidence.

I’m not sure of what to make of this, considering it is now Sunday evening and he only posted twice this weekend, and those post have not contained much substance.


Currently my biggest FoSs are Xyzzy then Liamcool. Phate is now on my radar, too.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps, you keep accusing everyone who doesn't post 20,000 times per day (yay hyperbole)

Not quite true. My argument has been that lurkers provide a hiding place for scum. If a large group of innocents lurk, it becames really easy for scum to get away with posting very little, and therfore much harder to find.

Are you willing to lynch someone based on how high their activity level is, or on how much they post?

The answer to that question is "Yes". I am quite willing to vote for a player based on their post count IF they don't contribute much in the way of discussion. So far, out of Xyzzy's ten post in this game, only two of them have contributed anything, his first and his last. (Although the last is mostly defense of his low postings.)

to suggest that I'm scum because I choose to contribute only that which will actually help the town, does nothing useful - it only slows us down.

Let's explore this shall we? How much has Xyzzy REALLY contributed to the town?
post 214 : His first post after replacing into the game. A detailed post examining Egrunts and Disciple Slayer. Votes for Fonz and DS.
post 217 : Unvote Fonz
post 263 : Agrees with Xyl. Stuff that hurts town is scummy
post 332 : "Eteco looks bad"
post 384 : "Xyl's argument vs. Panz is weak. 99% sure Ecto is scum"
post 428 : "Good player can post little and still contribute"
post 433 : "BM makes 100 post per day"
post 489 : FoS everyone who voted for Erguntz
post 567 : I'm back
post 571 : Defends low post style, FoS Panzer
I do agree that a good player can post little and still contribute, but I don't see Xyzzy doing this. He looks like he is hiding.

Unvote Liamcool
Vote Xyzzy

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I can't see what snaps has done all game aside from lurkerhunt

”Lurkerhunting” is a very viable strategy. How many games have been played where in the mafia sat quietly by while the more vocal innocents lynched each other? If you want to find someone, you should look where they hide.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I'm suspicious of Snaps and OGML for another reason, though; the three people who voted egruntz AFTER he admitted to being scum were Korlash, Snaps, and OGML. I do NOT think scum would bus their teammate, knowing there were two scumgroups. But once he admitted it? Why not take the townie points for being in on the lynch?

I don’t quite follow the logic here. OhGodMyLife and I are suspicious because we voted for Egruntz after he claimed scum? At the point that Egruntz claimed he was three votes away from getting lynched. After claiming scum, who here would not have voted for him? I think everyone in this game would have, regardless of alignment. Korlash, OGML, and myself just happened to be the next three players to log on after his claim.

Lurkerhunting is in essence looking active and vocal without ever risking a backlash from your actions, because lurkers don't defend themselves.

I belive a more accurate statement would be, “lurkers sometimes don’t defend themselves.” Many times when the lurker is called out, he will throw up some defensive posts. Depending on how the lurker reacts can tell something about his alignment. Also, sometimes when the lurker doesn’t defend himself, his scum buddies might.

In every mafia game I have played in and in almost every game I have followed there have been scum quietly staying out of the spotlight, posting just enough to keep from being replaced. So far, in this game two scum have been found, neither of which were lurkers. I believe there is a good chance we still have lurker scum among us.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Here are some of my thoughts on the players of this game:

Bookitty: On day one, it seems unlikely that scum would be willing to draw so much attention to their partners so early in the game. On the first day she went after Egruntz very strongly. If Bookitty is scum, I don’t think she is on the same team as Egruntz

Liamcool: Posts enough to keep off my lurker lists, but what has he said?

Phate: Posts little, mostly one-liners that encourage discussion. I don’t recall seeing him express suspicion on anyone except whomever he votes for.

Antithesis: Claimed cop on day one. I feel this is usually a poor strategy, but in this case it may have prevented his lynching. If he were lying then no doubt the real cop would have investigated him on night one. Because no one has counter-claimed, I believe either he told the truth and is the cop, or he lied and was found innocent by the real cop. The possibility that he is a godfather is still open.

Hasdgfas: He seems careful to be non-confrontational and to appear helpful. I don’t know if this means he is careful scum or careful townie.

Xyzzy: Lurker, but has started contributing more.

Panzerjager: Seems to have a lot of knowledge of the games setup. He suggested, on day one before there was any evidence to support him, that there were two scum groups.(See post 369)

There are probably more then 3 scum cause it's 18 player game.. My guess is either one group of 4 or 2 groups of 3. I try to avoid doctor speculation.

How could anyone other than scum know that on the first day?
On day two, he presented a rather detailed nightkill analysis. (See post 455)

Okay before I adovacate the lynch of egruntz with a case I want to indulge in some kill speculation. I think that a vig/sk killed CKD and that there are 2 mafia groups, Xyl's thinking that Fonz was a threat and the other group thinking Xyl was a threat

Was he able to be so detailed because he was in on one of the killings?
He also seems to know how many are in each scum group but is unwilling to tell us how he knows. (See post 584)

As to my musings of the setup, I have been saying that there are 2 groups of 3 all game. I cannot say much more right now with out giving to much of my thought process then I'm willing right now. I can promise that it will make sense in time, as most things do.

Also interesting is his about-face on Egruntz. On day one, he expressed iritation with Egruntz’s idea of no lynch, but didn’t vote for him or give an FoS. He even went as far as to say he thought he was innocent. (See post 243)

I think egruntz is town. I really do.

His day one posts seem like he is trying to tell Egruntz to drop the no lynch argument and distance himself also. (See posts 24, 48, and 150) On day two, after scum have had a chance to talk, he is suddenly one of the most vocal pushing for Egruntz’s lynch. This smells of bussing to me.

Volkan: I like his analyisis of each player. He seems open-minded and intellegent. If he is scum, he is a very dangerous one. The only thing I find suspicious about him is the zero interaction both he and his predecessor had with Xylthixlm.

Rishi: Replaced in late in day one. Pointed out that Xylthixlm and Egruntz names are different colors. As I stated earlier, I don’t see this as a scum or innocent tell as both are likely to point out the difference. However, this seems to be his only contribution to the game.

Skruffs: Like Volkan, neither he or his predecessor have any interaction with Xylthixlm. Were the three of them purposely avoiding each other so as not to reveal one another if they got caught?

OhGodMyLife: I see some distancing with Xylthixlm from him. Day one he voted for Xylthixlm. (See post 182) In his very next post, he removed his vote. (See post 304)

OK, Xyl, you've more than reassured me, so thank you for addressing that. The biggest reason for my vote was because I think the DS bandwagon and constant talk of egruntz' no-lynch theory were consuming too much of the town's attention and I wanted to get people to look elsewhere.

On day two, he tried to get some brownie points for “going after Xylthixlm” (See post 454)

I find it ironic that the townie(fonz) who came after me when I went after the mafia goon(xyl) also ended up dead. Along with the other person I was suspicious of(CKD). I'm gonna have to go have another look at day one, but right now what people are saying about egruntz is making sense, and his own posts are not doing anything to help his case.

In short, I think Panzerjager was scum partners with Egruntz and OGML was scum partners with Xylthixlm.

In order of most suspicious to least:
Panzerjager
OhGodMyLife
Liamcool
Xyzzy
Rishi
Phate
Hasdgfas
Volkan
Skruffs
Bookitty
Antithesis

Unvote : Xyzzy
Vote : Panzerjager

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps: How would a scum know that there were two scum groups in the first place?

In most New York Games, there is 4 or 5 mafia. If scum got a PM at the beginning of the game saying he less than three scum buddies, he could conclude that there are probably two scum groups. On the other hand, a townie, in a closed game, has no clue as to number of scum or scum groups involved.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

And, again, I call on snaps to explain himself

I’m not sure what I’m being called to explain. A little more specific please, Volkan.
I stand by my previous posts, and have tried to make them as clear as possible. However I don’t mind answering questions about them.

Lurkerhunting:
Yes, I am a lurkerhunter. Lurking is an anti-town behavior and must not be tolerated. Lurking causes games to stall, stifles conversation, and provides cover for the mafia. I will always put pressure on lurkers because of this. True, it is better for lurkers to be replaced, and if that is a possibility it is one I endorse. However, the problem comes when we have a lurker or few who post just enough to avoid being replaced.

My votes:
On day one I voted Disciple Slayer, not only because he was lurking, but because he was distracting the town and not even attempting to contribute. I didn’t then, and don’t now see why a townie would act in that way.
On day two I initially voted for Dark Ermac. I thought he was scum because he seemed to have information that only scum would have. Looking back at his posts, it still seems to me that he was saying he KNEW Disciple Slayer was innocent, though I know now he couldn’t have know for sure. Another reason I was suspicions of him was because he ignored my allegations. I changed my vote to Egruntz when he claimed scum, because he claimed scum. I am sure everyone who didn’t would have if they had the chance.
On day three I voted for Xyzzy and Liamcool because they were lurking and I wanted to pressure them into contributing. Xyzzy has since, but Liamcool has yet to. I changed my vote to Panzerjager because his sudden change from day one “I think Egruntz is town” to day two “I like lynching newbie scum. (Egruntz)” looks like bussing to me.

As you can plainly see from my voting record, I may be a lurkerhunter, but that is not my sole criteria for casting a vote.

On “conspiracy theories” and being “wishy washy”:
I believe that is important to consider all possibilities. That is why I brought up the possibility of a jailkeeper or that Antithesis might be lying about his role. I personally don’t think either of those is the case, but needed to be addressed as possibilities.


I hope that this clears up the questions some of you may have had about my posts. If not, please ask me and I will gladly respond to any questions you may have.


In anticipation of some “over-defensive” accusations, I’d like to point out the quote at the top of my post and remind everyone that I was called upon to “explain myself.”

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I have a few questions I'd like answered.

Bookitty

: Why do you think voting for Erguntz after he claimed is a scum tell? Don't you think an innocent might also have voted that way? Of all those who voted after his claim, why do you find me the most suspicious?

Hasdgfas, Liamcool, Phate, Rishi

: Who do you find suspicions? After nearly three months and over 600 posts, you must have some suspicions.

Panzerjager

: What caused you to speculate on day one that we have two scum groups? Why do you feel that there are three in each group?

Skruffs

: If you suspect Rishi for pointing out the color difference in Xly and Erguntz names, why aren't you likewise suspicious of Panzerjager for having similar "in game" knowledge?

Volkan

: While your analysis and arguments are very good, I haven't seen where you state who you think is scum and/or town. Who do you suspect?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I have a few questions I'd like answered.

Hasdgfas, Liamcool, Phate, Rishi

: Who do you find suspicions? After nearly three months and over 600 posts, you must have some suspicions.

I would still like an answer to these questions.

On what are you basing the idea that I find you the most suspicious of all those who voted after his claim, precisely, Snaps?

I thought you had voted for me. Looking back I see you voted for OGML.

Liamcool and Phate have not posted in this thread in almost two weeks. Come on you two! Are you playing or not? If you are, start participating! If you aren't, quit!

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

There are probably more then 3 scum cause it's 18 player game.. My guess is either one group of 4 or 2 groups of 3. I try to avoid doctor speculation.

This is the post where Panz suggested we might have two scum groups on day one. It is post # 369. He doesn’t come right out and say he knows there are two scum groups, but he seems to be the only one who considered the possibility. He claims it was blind speculation and gives a “gut feeling” type of explanation in post 646:

was in response to Antithesis' post 365 where he speculates about number of scum. I don't out and out say their are 2 scum groups of 3 i say there is another option(being one group of 4-5[didn't add 5 in the post on accident]) Anyway, this is really just blind speculation based on being in large games and playing mafia for a while. You come to know what to expect.

Welcome back Liamcool, and thank you for contributing. Now that we know who you suspect (me), it would be great to know why.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Day Three Vote/FoS/Post Record

Antithesis (Claimed Cop) - 9 posts
Vote - Xyzzy, OhGodMyLife

Bookitty - 16 posts
Vote - OhGodMyLife

Hasdgfas (Townie)- 8 posts
Vote - Xyzzy, Liamcool, OhGodMyLife

Liamcool - 4 posts

OhGodMyLife (Townie) - 12 posts
Vote - SnapsThePirate, Rishi
FoS - Xyzzy, Hasdgfas

Panzerjager - 27 posts
Vote - Phate, Xyzzy, Phate, Bookitty, OhGogMyLife, SnapsThePirate, OhGodMyLife
FoS - Skruffs

Phate - 5 posts
Vote - SnapsThePirate

Rishi - 16 posts

Skruffs (Townie)- 20 posts
Vote - Rishi, Xyzzy

SnapsThePirate - 17 posts
Vote - Xyzzy, Liamcool, Xyzzy, Panzerjager
Fos - Xyzzy, Liamcool, Phate

Vollkan - 27 posts
Vote - OhGodMyLife
Fos - OhGodMyLife

Xyzzy - 9 posts
Vote - Panzerjager
Fos - “Everyone who voted for Egruntz”

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Vote : Panzerjager

For reasons stated yesterday. (See post 601)

I don’t mind people being suspicious of me, that’s the whole nature of the game. However I am getting a bit discouraged that players like Liamcool, Phat, Rishi, and Xyzzy can contribute next to nothing and noone says a thing.
You lurkers, contribute please. Who do you find suspicious and why?
You more active players, don’t allow the lurkers a free ride! Press them to participate!

Liamcool, you have stated that you are leaning toward me in your suspicions, why?

Phate, you voted for me yesterday citing Bookitty’s argument of scum jumping on to the Egruntz bandwagon. Do you have any original reasons for suspecting me?
Panz and Volkan, are you suspicious of me for any other reasons than lurkerhunting? Lurkerhunting is a pretty weak tell.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps, what do you think of Rishi?

I really am unsure what to think about Rishi. He replaced in, lurked at first, pointed out the difference in name color of our two found scum, has suddenly became much more vocal, and has only voted once out of the three days. Maybe my attacks on the lurkers has motivated him to contribute more? Maybe not, whatever the case, he is contributing now. If he is scum he’ll slip-up and we’ll have him. We need keep everyone active and talking. The only way we will find the remaining scum is to get them to say something that gives them away. This is why lurking hurts the game. If we allow lurking, then scum just need to post occasional comments and skate along unnoticed while we hang each other.

As for the “link” between Rishi and myself, what do you see? If you are referring to post 631 where OGML said Rishi was the only lurker I hadn’t gone after, the reason for that is that I was busy going after more blatant lurkers.

If I don’t have any strong suspicions, I go after lurkers. I target the most conspicuous ones hoping to shake up any scum lurkers as well as to remove the dead wood.

I am sure Panz is scum on Egruntz team. I will be leaving my vote for him.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Stop pretending to be useful. You've managed to completely avoid catching scum with your "lurker hunting".

And

you

have managed to avoid scum catching with your constant lurking.

What I think is funny is that Snaps actually thinks that he has gotten me to post by his "applying pressure" to lurkers. He has a really skewed sense of his importance to this game.

Not the case at all. I don't have an exagerated sense of importance. Quite the opposite. I'm becoming increasinly frusterated with my lack of results. If you re-read my post you will see the key word you seem to be missing is MAYBE. There are any number of reasons you started posting more, I presented one.

As it seems I am the flavor of the day, I may as well post my suspicions:
Definate scum: Panzerjager
Possible scum : Rishi, Xyzzy
Lurks so much I can't tell one way or the other: Phate, Liamcool
Possible innocent : Bookitty, Vollkan
Definate innocent: Antithesis

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I'd be on board with a Snaps lynch, if a better lynch doesn't emerge. Snaps is relatively harmless, as Panz implies. All Snaps does is create white noise in the thread.

If I'm "harmless" why vote for me? Wouldn't a better use of your vote be for someone who is actually hurting the town? Or perhaps you smell an easy bandwagon and want to jump on early?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps..Your suspicion pretty much means your an OMGUSing tool. Your following Vollkan and Bookitty, not because they are actually town but because they are leading the game right now, and since I most wnat you lynched i'm definate scum. I'm most definently not scum.

I agree. It seems odd that all the people at the top of Snaps' suspicion list are people who are voting for him.

I'm not suspicious of Panzerjager, Rishi and Xyzzy just because they are voting for me. I'm suspicious because they are voting for weak reasons. Sure I don’t like lurkers and I even stated that we should clear some away early, but so far NOONE has shown how my anti-lurker attitude is scummy. Some players have pointed out that it’s not the most helpful, and perhaps that is true. However, have I been less helpful than the lurkers themselves?
Panzerjager, Rishi, and Xyzzy are using my dislike for lurkers as an excuse to hang me. Panzerjager in particular has been pushing pretty hard for it for two days now.
In addition to his weak reason for pushing my lynch, I am also suspicious of Panzerjager because of his relationship with Ergruntz. Day one he tried to direct him away from his no-lynch argument, then day two he bussed him. In addition, Panzerjager was the only player to suggest we had two scum groups and also seems to know how many are on each. You can refer to post 601 where I made these arguments earlier. Panzerjager can scream OGUMS all he wants, I have more reasons to suspect him than just his vote.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

But there hasn't been much scumhuning in this game because of people like yo creating needless noise. How do you expect anyone to effectively scumhunt when every other post is a new report of who's posting the least? Even if you're town, which I doubt, your behavior is destructive and won't help us in the long run. I'd rather see one more protown player die than have you lose the game in endgame because you don't understand what a real scumtell is.

So your lack of contribution is my fault................................That's an interesting argument.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

****PROPOSAL****
All players submit a scumdar giving at least 2 sentences per person. I will post mine first if the majority so wills it. Otherwise, I suggest random sequencing.

I feel this is a good idea. Lists would help the town more than scum. I’ll start the ball rolling with my own:

Panzerjager - I have made my case against him a number of times in the past two days. I am pretty sure his is scum. Apart from what I mentioned in previous posts, he has seemed very anxious to lynch quickly. Several times he has mentioned suspicions of Bookitty, but I can’t find where he elaborated or gave reasons for his suspicion of her.

Xyzzy - I find Xyzzy interesting in that he was after Panzerjager for reasons similar to mine.

Cause the norm is 2 groups of 3..every game i've been in with 2 greoups has been 2 groups of 3.

Assuming that this game is remotely similar to anything else is really quite scummy - we have no reason to assume that anything about this game is "traditional". Knowledge about the setup is a really bad thing to guess at, and any good player should know that - but remember, the scum have MUCH more information about the setup, so for scum to suggest something like this usually seems quite rational.

FoS: Panzer

Yet Xyzzy has been careful not to vote for Panzerjager when he was in any real danger of being lynched, instead he has apparently dropped his suspicions and he has switched his attack to me for lurker hunting and being unhelpful.

Rishi - He has played pretty quietly the whole game. The only thing that seems to have stirred him up was Skruffs accusation and vote based on him pointing out the difference in color of caught scum. Skruffs argument was weak, but he was killed that night. Did Rishi get nervous and NK Skruffs or Rishi is being set up?

Liamcool - Lurker of ridiculous proportions. I encourage you to do an isolated read of him. He has contributed NOTHING. His only vote was back in day one. I’m glad he was replaced.

Phate - His posts are all about game play, there is no scumhunting in them. The only exception is the following where he parrots Bookitty:

I'm liking a Snaps lynch. He jumps onto the egruntz-wagon after egruntz claims, and he's spending most of his time poking lurkers and more-or-less ignoring the conversations going on around him.

Bookitty - Not easy to sum up in just a few sentences. I get a pretty strong town vibes off of Bookitty. She has been very active, contributed to the conversations, etc. She has taken close looks at a number of players, and doesn’t seem to be trying to lead the town or start bandwagons. The only niggle of suspicion I have for her is a result of Panzerjager not elaborating on his suspicion of her. Is he distancing? Looking to start a bandwagon?

Vollkan - I enjoy his analytic thinking, however he seems to be reluctant to state who he suspects. On the other hand, he has not shied away from answering questions that are put to him. I find nothing scummy about him, and that makes me a little nervous.

Antithesis - He claims to be the cop. I believe him. If he was lying and scum, I’m pretty sure the real cop would have counter-claimed by now. If he was lying and innocent then it’s to the real cop’s interest to not counter-claim.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Just my opinion:

Lists in general are more helpful to town. Scum have every advantage but numbers. They know the status and roles of their teammates, they know the number of scum, and they have nights in which they can coordinate their attacks. For the town to win, we need to work together. If everyone produced a list, then we have an exchange of information in the form of suspicions, vote and FoS analysis etc. Granted, some of that information will be tainted by scum, but anything that forces scum to participate is to the town’s advantage. When scum create lists, they have the burden of the extra information they are privy to. They have to make their suspicion lists in a way that doesn’t implicate their scum buddies or themselves, and they have to be careful that they have been consistent with their previous arguments. I can understand the arguments that others have given about how lists help scum, but I believe lists help town more. If we hold back our thoughts and refuse to work together how can the town win?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Again, two scum on Eteocles/DS. Again I doubt there is a third scum there.

That there are not more then two scum on each bandwagon is a very bold assumption. TS has based her entire argument off that assumption. While I agree with her conclusion, I think her method is potentially dangerous.

TS, why do you think that we would have no more than two scum on that first wagon?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Unvote: Panzerjager

I don't want to lynch any power roles. I'm don't like Bookitty's SK theory. Panzerjager has suggested a way for him to prove himself, so he is most likely telling the truth.

Panzer, why did you target CKD on night one?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I think we can rule out a SK in this game. We know from night one that we have three killing groups, but we have not had three kills in one night since. That means either at least one group has been blocked each night, or there is a limit to the kills for one group. As our cop has been blocked each night, and our doc was presumably protecting him, so it seems unlikely that kills were being blocked. It also seems unlikely that a serial killer would have a limit on kills, as this would make it almost impossible for him to accomplish his goal. The explanation that makes the most sense is that there are two mafia groups and a limited shot vig.
Bookittys suggestion that each scum group has a roleblocker doesn’t seem plausible, it would make the scum too powerful. I think one group probably has a blocker and the other group has some other role like a godfather or mafia doc.

So, with the deadline looming, does anyone have a better idea than Snaps?

So far the only argument against me is that I engage in “lurkerhunting”. That’s a pretty weak argument. I suggest a policy lynch of one the lurkers. They are hurting the game far more than I am. Also, like Panzerjager, I too believe one of them is probably scum.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Now that I'm inclining toward Panzer being innocent, I'm at a loss as to who to vote for. That is why I suggested a policy lynch. Both Phate and Xyzzy are serious lurkers so I would suggest one of them. I am also suspicious of Rishi and Xyzzy because they followed Panzer to form a bandwagon on me based on flimsy “evidence”. Seems pretty opportunistic. Rishi in particular doesn’t sound very convinced of my guilt and just seems to be following the others.

However, at this point I would support any lynch other than my own. If Panzerjager is correct about there being four scum left, with only 9 players left we have a 50/50 shot of hitting one of them. I’ll join what ever bandwagon forms.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

@ Panzerjager: I would like this question answered.

Panzer, why did you target CKD on night one?

@Toaster Strudel: Could you explain this statement please,

A TWO-shot vig is a little bizarre. A one-shot vig, or a regular vig, but TWO shot???

Do you think Panz has falsely claimed? If so, in what way? If you think his claim is false, why have you unvoted him?

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I believe Panzers claim. In post 782, I explained why I feel we have a vig rather than an SK. If Panzer has falsely claimed wouldn’t the real vig have counter-claimed by now?
Like Vollkan and Bookitty, I also did a google search of “2- shot vig”. A 2- shot is rare but not unheard of.
The deadline is fast approaching and it is starting to look like we may miss it. I’ll cast my vote now, but I will check back Sunday and move my vote if necessary to secure a lynch.

Vote Phate

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Panzer, why did you target CKD on night one?

Still waiting for an answer.

I don't like the way xyzzy is playing

What about his play do you not like?

I am dead set against Kison and Panzerjager deciding in thread who to investigate/vig and then doing so in tandem......Saying who the targets will be only gives the scum perfect advance warning of whether to roleblock or not. It seems much better to me that Kison and Panzer target their primary suspects, independently and without advance warning to the scum.

I agree with Bookitty here strongly, and find it strange that Panzer would suggest a ploy that plays so clearly to scums advantage.

That there are not more then two scum on each bandwagon is a very bold assumption. TS has based her entire argument off that assumption.

I still feel that TS has made an unwise assumption.


As I'm am leading in votes, I will not be changing mine.

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

I can see there are only four votes on him, so that ought to be a lynch.

Not quite, Panzer unvoted me in post 803, so with your vote I am now at four. (Xyzzy, Rishi, Vollkan, Bookitty) Need one more to lynch. I'll go ahead and claim, though I doubt it will save me. I have no special powers and am just a vanilla. Had fun playing with you.
:waves:

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Meh. I think I did well looking pro-town, but not so well at trying to eliminate the other scum group.

I probably shouldn't have bussed Snaps.

Meh...I was playing stupidly.....should have bussed me earlier and harder.

I had Phate pegged for town.