Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Hawk]

Yo, forgive me if I'm not super attentive in RVS. I'm sick IRL and have lower mental function right now from all these meds.

VOTE: sheep

Somebody said something about a slip I want more.

[Hawk]

I absolutely trust that - you should place a vote

so the rest of town

can sheep you.

Is this the slip?

Sheep has been baaaaaaaaaaaaaad *makes sheep noise when saying Bad*

[Hawk]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

What was awkward about the way I popped in?

If nothing else you were the last one to vote him. Also why acknowledge Naomi and no one else who hadn't posted yet?

@Wheme of the three of us who did you like least? Do you not link early wagons? I think it's getting nice content from Sheep. And generating discussion.

[Hawk]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

What was awkward about the way I popped in?

If nothing else you were the last one to vote him. Also why acknowledge Naomi and no one else who hadn't posted yet?

@Wheme of the three of us who did you like least? Do you not link early wagons? I think it's getting nice content from Sheep. And generating discussion.

Lil Uzi, I have no problem with them, but its okay to be suspicious of the people who put them at L-2, wouldn't you be suspicious of someone hammering a wagon? Where's the cutoff point on the wagon. I thought it generated good discussion too, froggy got the reactions from people that he wanted.

See Wheme gets it Uzi. Why'd you take us all the way to L-2??

VOTE: LUV

Where/are you that confident that Sheep is scum??? Don't you think L-2 this early is dangerous? I mean I understand pressure but that was playing with a bit of fire there Uzi.

Also to answer your question I interjected because your vote made me pause and contemplate too. So I wanted to engage you.

[Hawk]

Naomi and Terata probably aren't scum.

I agree here. Thanks for answering my question. I may have been hopped up on cold meds last night but I didn't think the case on sheep was that strong so I didn't mind switching my vote to get some response and shake up some people.

Tho personally I don't see what's so scummy as jumping off a wagon and onto another to get some engagement and conversation. It's d1. And early too. I want lots of people talking today not just tunnel on sheep :/

Also why Gerry? If you thought Sheep's slip was something substantial wouldn't that mean you're inclined to town read Gerry since he was implying that Gerry is town?

Pedit: ^ What Fro99er said. Though Im still only partially sold on it being a legit slip. I can easily see this as being a misnomer. Sheep's reaction to the whole thing seems pretty indifferent he's not trying to hard to deny it as a slip more so just saying it's silly to think of it as a slip.

[Hawk]

Sheep slipped. He spoke like he wasn't part of town.

You should vote me if I did that.
When and how did I do that?

he also didn't deny to slipping, he just wants to know where he did lmao.

You're not serious right? Like this is a joke to me. It's saying "You said you kick puppies!" and me replying "Wait when did I say that?" and you being like "he kicks puppies! He didn't deny it??" like it's implied I don't kick puppies. Just like it's kinda implied he doesn't think he slipped.

[Hawk]

So I got what like 4 votes on me now? Give me a bit I'll catch up and post thoughts since apparently playing it back is horribly scummy says 3 people and ignores half the other games players who are in similar positions just have posted even less than I have.

Also I'm not being lynched today. So please just give me till later to catch up. I have like 4 ongoing games and Have fallen behind in all of theme except one because Ive been sick IRL so spare me a moment here -_-;

[Hawk]

Okay I'm at work right now but I get off in an hour. Today you guys have added 5 pages of content that has put me here.

Frog is town
Sheep is flailing and using buzzwords to death maybe because they're new? (white Knight, misrep, etc.)
Terata looks town from his interaction with Sheep and I was equally as confused reading through Sheep's posts involving why he would get town cred for WKing and some outstanding circular logic by sheep.
AJ is town trying to interject some line of thought into a chaos of fluff since for 5 pages it feels like Sheep and frog have had the same exact fucking arguement. Also all this happened today. jeesus guys.
I like ECM for his entrance but it really doesn't ping me one way or the other.
Naomi is fine not pinging me one way or the other I can understand her logic on her reads and while I appreciate the effort it's NAI.

Here in a minute I'll go through and quote and answer some questions I know we're asked of me so give me a second I'm doing this from mobile.

After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.

[Hawk]

Do you not link early wagons? I think it's getting nice content from Sheep. And generating discussion.

What nice content do you think it's getting from me? Mostly I've just been asking questions back.

Your post in 53 In response showcases enough content for me that you like to make assumptions and then ignore those assumptions when people question them. You later do this even further with your ever devolving argument with Frog.

In post 53 you entirely ignore the fact that you make the assumption that Lowell will answer one way as you phrase the questions in such a manner that the first is rhetorical. You don't wait for a response like Frog says and you also don't see a problem from making assumptions that automatically paint someone in a negative light. Then not only that you continue to ask questions regarding your assumption as true rather than consider you made an assumption and your logic is flawed!

VOTE: WhemeStar

Wheme, what are your thoughts on Sheep and the quick L-2 wagon on him?

Why not give your thoughts?

Speaking of - I'd like you to respond to my questions.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8812488

Where/are you that confident that Sheep is scum??? Don't you think L-2 this early is dangerous? I mean I understand pressure but that was playing with a bit of fire there Uzi.

You opted to play with a fire, and so did Uzi - what makes his fire the bigger and more dangerous one really?

The difference between placing someone at L-4 and L-2 is huge... you realize that yes? It'd also a naked vote. I at least voted under the premise of believing the slip (which I don't really disregard it's more an after thought at this point)

Pedit:
Forgive me if I'm slow to respond to all these I'm trying to take my time.
@Terata I liked his entrance but it doesn't currently ping me as town or scum is that not hard to understand? Basically Null??

[Hawk]

liked = towny in my book. You had fun reading it, so that's what you're gonna mean when you say you like something. noted..

Okay okay yes liked is usually a town associative word for me thats why I clarified with doesn't ping me one way or the other. I guess my use of like here means even if it's just subconscious I lean him more town than scum but still very null. Like I said I'm at work just now getting off forgive me I'm trying to do this from mobile lol

[Hawk]

---

Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?

At the time I was leaning him yespecially. Now yeah pretty much since all his posts till now have been the definition of insanity.

[Hawk]

Hey guys, I'm still here just had a bad crisis IRL that I had to deal with. I will be back sometime tomorrow in the evening my time. I've never had to do this.

@Mod VLA till Tuesday 1900 CST?

[Hawk]

Hey guys I'm back. Sorry I had received some very bad news on Saturday after getting home so I didn't get to finish what I wanted to post. Lots has been added since then and I'm going to try and get back into a regular routine and catchup. Gonna do some ISO digging and outline posts then form a readlist off that so this is the first of a few posts. This one is for Sheep who at this moment before digging into anyone else is my vote for the day. He bothered me slightly early and then over the day it just got worse.

I don't understand your reply there, here's the timeline - you arrive in the game and say this;

I havent played with sheep b4 obv, but he strikes me as a person that would defend himself awkardly as either alignment, so while i think towns could be pinged by his weird wordings, i dont rly think its scummy.

You then attack Uzi (one of my attackers) at this stage, you are effectively WKing me.

Later on, the wagon on me dissolves - at that point you shift your read to a "might be scum" sort of read.

I say that the theory scum plan was to WK (which you did) and then, later, when you realize the wagon won't bull rush through it's viable to have me as a lynch option by seeing how maybe I'm scum (which you also did). That is a coherent comment which is as much of a slip as my last comment called a slip. If something looks weird it's because we're not talking cleanly to each other - not because it's a slip.

First instance of kinda discrediting and wanting to shade throw towards someone that I don't like. This reads as a scumread because he thinks that WK is some kind of scumslip. He references this again later talking about Naomi. Also he makes more assumptions here and does so in his tone a lot. Note: "I say that the theory scum plan was to WK (which you did)" see how he doesn't give a chance to discredit the idea by even beginning to think that Terata was doing anything else. If its apparently he was WK you shouldn't have to clarify because its apparent. If it isn't apparent then its your opinion that the behavior is WK, and not fact, I don't like this tone unless someone is downright denying their behavior was one thing when it could be another, and even then it's kinda scummy behavior to deal in such absolutes this early on. I mean it's D1 and whether he was WKing you or not won't be apparent or relevant until later.

I never dodge questions as town. Never. (sarcasm for those that don't get it)

Do you misrep as town?

No, but I can misunderstand as town. I didn't even read that part of your wall because I am sick of your walls and your demands that I answer you.

Either way, your original logic around Lowell doesn't make sense. If he didn't want to sheep, it does not necessarily imply he would have been ok with voting there had there been zero votes there.

You made a leap in logic to throw shade.

So you admit you might be misunderstanding me - but your case on me is based on your understanding of my actions, and you don't wish to read my posts nor discuss anything with me?

Here's some shade - if this is how you play as town, it's not good. The very concept of the game is about communication and correctly understanding people to get reads on them. Why are you a proponent of your method instead?

"The very concept of the game is about communication and correctly understanding people to get reads on them." I feel like this discredit towards Fro99ers case on Sheep was him attempting to dissolve the entire case in one swoop but its not that simple. Fro99ers case on sheep starts because he makes an assumption about Lowell's play and how Lowell's future play will play out. This in any case means that Sheep is already not playing well as town by his own definition. He doesn't take the time to communicate and discuss whats going on he makes assumptions about about others players play and reads them off of it. (also he entirely focuses on scum slips and things that are scummy which is fine to scum hunt but he has very few town reads from what I can tell and if he does they're very slight and he always is doubly suspicious that it may have alternative motives, Ex: Terata and later Naomi.)

Even here he doesn't take fro99ers admittance of a misunderstanding as anything town but a chance to turn the table and accuse fro99er of scummy behavior.

@Frogger - The idea that he would never sheep does support A and B cleanly and without effort.

Why not though?

If someone will never sheep

, which means they never follow anyone elses' thoughts, they aren't cooperating ever.
Sure, reads might align - but they are openly stating zero cooperation unless I'm missing something.

More assumptions. If someone will NEVER sheep. He opens up here that his logic makes sense if Lowell will never sheep. As town why deal that greatly in absolutes? I don't like any of this, compounded with everything Fro99er and Terata had said at the time about hsi behavior this just adds another layer of assumption to the mix in his logic. This reads to me as Close minded town playing poorly or scum trying to sound absolute about his cases and unwavering. Either way I'm okay with a lynch here like I said.

The leap in logic was about lack of cooperation - I explained why it makes sense to me. It has nothing to do about whether he may or may not have eventually been okay voting there - AND I NEVER SAID IT DID.

Here he defends it again saying that it makes sense if Lowell will never sheep a player, which just can't be determined. Sometimes you sheep someone. Especially in RVS. He also says that he never said it had anything to do with whether he may or may not have eventually been comfortable voting there, but your assumption was that if he's not willing to vote because its a sheep then he will be uncooperative which in of itself is a contradiction because if he may or may not eventually be okay with voting there wouldn't that at that point make him *gasp* cooperative? Like you're saying its about cooperation but if your case is built on the assumption that Lowell never sheeps therefor is uncooperative or difficult to cooperate with then your case does matter about him eventually voting one way or the other. Because he in your mind is either never sheeping meaning he has to reach conclusions of his own accord and then vote with town or never reach those conclusions and not vote cooperatively. Your logic deals in so many absolutes that it sucks. Like even if you are town (I don't think you are) your logic sucks balls.

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

More attempts to take words and just reverse them to throw shade. You're not interested in finding out if fro99er pushing on you is town!fro99er or scum!fro99er just interested in discrediting the case.

You continue to push the misrep and lie angle, when I pointed out I simply misread. Misreading is different from intentionally misrepping or lying.

You need to make a case on me that doesn't involve me not reading, thinking I misrepped, or thinking I lied.

So you agree that you misrepped/misunderstood me?
But your case doesn't change?
Okay.

Same thing here

Vote: Hawk

Would also do Lowell, but I'll sheep AJ for the moment.
I actually think Frogger's defense is bad enough I'm reading it as town - the point being if he doesn't see the hypocrisy, it's not scum hypocrisy whether it exists or not.

Okay, my current scumreads don't exactly include you but this jump at the end is fucking atrocious. You go from 'let's talk' to voting frogger, who you claim to want to have a discussion with. You're so incredibly nitpicky especially in latter pages about what frogger said and not about what frogger's DONE. Because you attacking doesn't really solve anything Frogger had pushed for the last couple of pages.

The points you claim I'm being nitpicky about are the same thing's Frogger's done.

Note in his last post - he isn't admitting to lying or misrepping - but he is admitting to misunderstanding, which is the same thing just depending on whether he is town or scum.
That's the point, and I needed to figure out the hypocrisy to get a read through it, when the slot I'm presented with is resorting to ignoring, rage, and yelling to present their case - I don't know another way to sort through it. If you have suggestions for future games I'd love to hear them..

Here Sheep actually starts sounding like he's willing to backoff of Fro99er but only once another lynch is being called up. Yeah I know it looks bad because its mine. But also note his tone here. Right before the bolded portion he says fro99ers defense is bad and hypocrisy. Town hypocrisy but hypocrisy non the less. If AJ's points about nitpicky ness are the same as fro99er's then its not just hypocrisy but its justified here? Like you justify fro99ers case and don't deny it but instead decide to say that engaging back in the manner that you are is your only way to sort through it. Like if you understand it's a scummy way to fight back a case then maybe you need to find another way to fix it. And to your defense you do ask for suggestions for future games but to be honest there are a million ways you can engage back with fro99er rather than sit there and just go over in ridiculous detail what fro99er has said and done instead of just presenting yourself or your logic in a manner that answers his questions. Like you never take a second to just let it go you always have to have the FoS shifted in another direction other than your own. Start there. Don't end every response with a question that throws shade back at the attacking player because to town players that seems super scummy and to scummy players they can just play off it and set you up to look worse.

She kind of did the same thing to me, when I did my WK tell - even though I ruled her as town and said the tell didn't apply to her she seemed to get a little aggro about it.
Then again, I recall Tetara kinda doing the same thing, so seems like a thin scumtell, yeah?

Having a hard time parsing a lot of the other cases - they mostly seemed to be based on hypocrisy (which I feel has been a cornerstone of every case so far) and I also think a lot of people are mxing up hypocrisy with 'logic I don't understand/don't agree with and don't care to try to' which seems really different to me.

My scum reads remain about the same, I'll remind people that I've had issues with Chaos for some time now, just in case anyone wants to have a complaint about me hopping on that wagon if it catches much more steam But I'm happy with it and Hawk as frontrunners.

Didn't see much else bothering me till here. So earlier you thought Terata could have scum motivations towards WKing you. Now you say Naomi is doing something similar. and that you have always had a problem with Chaos and you don't like me. So the people you've had problems with and have wanted to vote/agree with wagons or even lynches on if we just take those at face value and don't give them anything more than a scum lean are.

Naomi, Terata, Choas, Fro99er, Hawk, and Lowell. You realize thats 6 different players. Not to mention anyone else that I missed or maybe didn't see where you deflect they're approach at you at all. Like I'm fairly certain Uzi and Gerry have been noted somewhere in your ISO I just don't feel like quoting it all.

I don't even get the point either of you are having right now - I agree Chaos is scum, I don't like either of your cases overmuch...so where's the fire. I could say I think Chaos is scum because the trees told me and that your cases are made out of pixie dust and marshmallows - you both clearly like to mock me as having no logic, so I don't know why you're annoyed that I don't love your logic, even if we're at the same destination (and in Frogger's case, ignoring what I've said).

And you're on Chaos but not voting him... Like... uhhh....I'm stopping here because I'm just done with Sheep. His ISO is very bad. It reads very bad to me. I highlighted some parts. and I still have 11 other players to do this for. Or at least look at before making a reads list. So yeah

VOTE: Sheep

[Hawk]

Next is Wheme because I noticed he had recently claimed which made this higher priority than others besides my vote.

I think hawk jumped on the sheep wagon which was a weak slip, him and others jumped on it which makes me suspect them a little bit, which one town wants to lynch? Idc, saw people voting hawk, so I voted himself too because he is also suspicious to me

I think I responded to this already at some point. I thought pressure and case on Sheep was pretty light but I wanted to wagon there to see how he responded. Turned out that was just going to be the main topic of the day forever and I jumped ship when I thought we had gotten most out of it. I don't like how sheep reacted over the course of the whole day but early on I was willing to shift the spotlight onto someone else (anyone who voted for Sheep or myself would have been fine because it was still early) so I may have played it a little loose voting Uzi but I wanted a shift in game perspective and didn't mind putting myself in a spot to be called out on such a fast switch vote.

Also to respond to

Sheep

Who asked me if I thought it was rather interesting that just 24 hours after blah blah blah. I work a fulltime job 9-6 everyday. I have 4 kids and a wife. This is a hobby if I come in and post its cause I had time. If I change perspective or vote in weird timing for you ignore that shit because it means literally nothing to me because you say it was 24 hours. But I have a real life so for 24 hours I didn't sit here and contemplate one of my 4 mafia games for 24 hours and then switch my votes for whatever reason. No I wanted a change in perspective because I didn't see anything new coming from what was going on your wagon, nothing strange about that 24 hour thing. This was an aside brought to you by the fact that I forgot to include it in my big long Sheep post but remembered it when I said switch vote.

Wheme, you really think who was on Sheep at the time is the by far most Alignment telling thing that's happend so far? you have no read on other things like actual game-solving done?

WHat did you think about lil's case on sheep a page ago or so. What do you think about me. and what did you think about my #311 about you?

I feel this game is just sheep/froggy arguing with each other,

and I think their both town. I like the way sheepy defended himself and how froggy pushed him. They are still both town reads for me.

Honestly I am behind, trying to catch up more and more but than more and more pages are getting added, which is why I'm really only responding to things being asked towards me, trying to catch up though. And ill hopefully have more reads soon.

Bolded this is fucking important because he thinks that sheep and fro99er was TvT (which there are arguments for but I don't think that)

I feel like this game is froggy vs sleepy, and I'm not sure on what to say about it.

No opinion on:

Lowell and my interactions
CO and Frogger's interactions
Sheep's response to it
Gerrygoat in general
Lowell on ECM and Naomi

There's a circus going on and you're just focusing on the last act.

Ill try to do this piece by piece, too try and show that I'm trying my best to help out town. Sorry if you prefer me to give my opinions in one big post though.

Gerrygoat in general has been useless IMO. He hasn't contributed anything to the game (less than me) and I find it suspicious. Only thing he contributed too was saying sheep slipped, and claimed that he was the one who pointed out the slip, but Frogger did IMO.

But I don't think mafia would do what gerry is doing, so Im going to say he's null-town

Sheep and Frogger have been going at it all game. At first I thought it was froggy just trying to get reactions out of others, but then it kept going on and on.

After reading both of their posts over and over I think sheep is trying to just blame froggy of not reading his posts/answering his questions/misrepping him. Which I think is a scummy move, just asking questions over and over again. I thought sheep's slip wasn't really a slip, but his posts lately have me thinking he is possible scum.

Lowell- I don't like some of his posts, such as iso #2. Where he voted sheep and said "is the slip real? who knows". Seems to me like he didn't have much reason to vote sheep and he didn't really care. I do like his recap on post #355 though.

Also said that EC/Naomi flipped when he had a FOS on them, yet I don't see anything that shows them flippinng out.

Possible scum.

I find it really strange how Lowell said AJ's posts are spot on and right. Yet in a previous post, AJ said that he thinks Lowell is scum.

Is that a slip?

I also think that Lowell is wrong on Naomi, she seems genuine town for me, and I will be against a lynch on her for a while.

EC, please get avatar, pls.

EC voted me for not explaining my vote on Hawk? Which I thought I did, and I had nothing else to say about it. Used my previous posts as an example of me saying nothing. And said me getting a vote on me is the reason I became substantial. Which was wrong.

If you guys want more or if I missed some things, ask and Ill try to explain best I can.
For now, id like to vote lowell.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lowell

So a soft reads list here is good. I like the reasonings. Bolded what I think is important so I'm going to ask some questions really quick about them.

From this reads list you reread Sheep and Froggy's epic back and forth what changed in roughly 100 posts for you to go from TvT to TvS? Also in particular what about Sheep's posts did you find towny because I just want and idea into your though processes here. Please expand this read for me when you get the chance. I noticed it follows similar read down below but I'd like more.

Gerry is just too lurkery and too what to be scum? Please enlighten me as to what you meant there.

Agree with the comment about Lowell here but I do want to know what you like about Lowell's posts in 355 and why you scum read Lowell if you think Sheep is scum too? Do you see any associative here or are you just saying within these two there is at least one scum or??

Last thing, talk to me about AJ. Like the bolded underlined comment about a slip. Whats with that? You leave AJ out of your reads here and give a very very brief town read on him below. Why?? Talked to me here because this isn't flowing for me.

Want me to reveal?

Why do you ask Terata that? Like is there a reason its Terata? I understand there is pressure on you from him but.... Like why specifically him? Why specifically in response to his pressure. Why so quickly and so effortlessly rather than any other defense.

Froggy
Naomi
Tereta - Like his posts and his pushes on me and others
AJ - like how he pushes some people like Tereta is, asked questions to get discussion.

EC - FFS get an avatar pls,

I like how he pushed me for not explaining in detail with Hawk.
Gerry - Doesn't post much, but I don't think that scum would be so obvious
Lil Uzi - Posts don't contain much but every once in a while he posts something good, like post #287
Hawk - I don't really see where he fell off, can someone help explain that too me?
Chaos - I agree with others saying he tried to derail Sheep's wagon
Penguin - Not much to say with him only having 6 posts.

Sheep- Don't really like how his response to frog was mostey questions, and then called out frog for being scum by not answering said questions.
Lowell - His post counteracts itself when he said that he likes AJ because he is a lurker but when he posts his reads are spot on, but AJ called him scum earlier.

Okay Solid reads. Increasing size for ECM again because GET AN AVATAR!!! ARRGGHH so hard to see you sometimes lol.

Also of note here You don't provide reasoning for Froggy and Naomi. I understand that they are your top town leans. But here me out. I need to know why. Specifically about Naomi. Naomi has for me from what I've skimmed from rereading a few times now trying to catch up been fine, but nothing that couldn't be coasting under the radar. Not that I have particularly strong reads on Naomi I'd lean her town too just point out what really cements your read on Naomi for me would you?

Frogg is pretty obvious, but Naomi im more interested in, i think she seems like an active player overall and wonder what specifically makes you townread her. Also you dont have to think Hawk has fell off, just give your own thoughts on him.

(btw, are all your reads ordered? or is it just general tiers?)

I've liked her posts since her first one. I don't have much else to say besides that, her posts seem town genuine.

ok, thoughts on hawk?

I had a FOS on Hawk since the sheep slip, which I thought was weak, but I don't see how he fell off, which is why he's null for me, not scum.

I want you to address this really quick. Is your only FoS my vote because of a slip? Also why don't you see how I fell off. I basically became non existent.

I'll actually read later on.

Liar.

_____________________________

Spoiler: Spoilered wall post that I skimmed and liked

"What are all these bolded lines" you ask. Well it's all the things that pinged me in this post.
He seems super apologetic in his wordings which i haven't really seen from his previous play, an example being "im trying my best to help town" (talking about town as a seperate entity). I also had a problem with how he tries to take credit for coming up with certain reads that he clearly sheeped from others in the thread. If he said he sheeped them it would be completely fine, but he talks like he thought them up himself. Specifically the one about Lowell slipping about AJ's reads but also a little about the Sheep read, which was summarized with what problems other's have had with Sheep all game (and this is after he read the posts "over and over").

He made sure to point out someone who had done less pro-town things than he has (gerry) which mafia loves to do when they feel they're getting pressure even though there are towns not showing towniness. And he KEPT saying he's having the same null/townread about Gerry which he had for the same reason as earlier that had been called out by BOTH gerry and frogg, who you're still saying pointed out the initial slip. He just won't back down from his initial statement even though it's clearly wrong, and that's much more scummy than being wrong in the first place in this scenario. Also, why would he even say Gerry's been contributing less than he has if he's still null-townreading gerry? Seems like standard shade to me.

Last but not least i dislike in what form he gives his Naomi read. He says it like "I also think Lowell is wrong on Naomi..." as to shade Lowell (his scumread) for being wrong on a town, which seems like a tmi read to me if i've ever seen one. That read just doesn't come naturally to you to call Lowell wrong in your case on him if you don't know the alignment of the person being read. And disliked how he phrased "id like to vote" at the end. A struggling finish to a scummy post.

This is what a confident vote looks like VOTE: WhemeStar !

(Chaos made me doubt since his comeback)

Sheep fell apart. I can do Wheme.

VOTE: Wheme

Also, most of my reads are sheeps from other people

Want me to reveal?

I'm going to try and vote you again.
VOTE: Wheme
_______________________________

Spoiler: Why I think Gerry is scum

58, 134, 136, and 152

What first pinged me about Gerry before I did my first reread of his ISO was his 58. On the surface it looks like just filler, but if you look and think it about it on a deeper level, he's arguable treating himself as confirmed town that shouldn't be considered for a lynch today by anyone for getting the game out of RVS as well as starting a wagon on Sheep.

Fast forward to a bit to 134, he does the same thing again by discrediting not only Naomi's read on him but also her as a player by bringing up a previous game without any context in which he claims he got two members of the scum team lynched.

136 is self explanatory.

I'm inclined to believe 152 is more scum motivated than town motivated and it only reinforces my read on him. He's hints at a PR of some sort and says he shouldn't be lynched today. There was no pressure on him at the time and the overall focus was on Sheep as well as the various arguments Frog was getting into so it was odd for him to drop that soft like it's hot and just leave. Scum have more to gain by bread crumbing in my opinion. It helps them with fake claiming and it can potential draw doctors and jail keepers to them.

TL:DR: Gerry has been been basically treating himself as confirmed town since RVS ended.

I think Gerry tried to distance from Sheep early and it sort of backfired a bit. I also think he could be just scum that tried to spread and pray on paranoia early and Sheep is town.

If we lynch Gerry today, we'll probably feel a lot better about Sheep's alignment

LUV moves up in my townreads to join Fro99er and Naomi. Congrats on the promotion. Unfortunately there is no pay raise associated.

@Penguin, what is wrong with asking to reveal? I asked the question because votes were being put on me and people suspected me so I didn't know if I should reveal or not. But oh well, Ill do it anyway.

Im a

Town Odd Night Rolestopper.

. Sorry if my actions don't seem towny, Im working on it still.

*facepalm* this is bad. You've been told why its bad. But I'll explain. If you have a really good feeling about who could be scum and we lynch correctly today your role would prove very useful come N3 if you could make it that long but now you're never making it that far unless you're scum or we have some other god awesome PR's, the claim itself feels forced and awkward and entirely out of characteristic for someone with only a few votes on them. I understand Fro99ys hesitation to believe this. If anything it might have reinforced his vote.

PEDIT: Okay so not lynching you today is not necessarily good? If you're lying about role stopper being town this game town potentially risks you being able to hit one of our actual PR's tonight which isn't likely but still not good if we have a Cop or a Vigi with a good shot or a doc or something. I don't nesscarily want to lynch you because I don't think your play up until now has been too scummy but you have lurked a bit and haven't contributed much. I do like your reads I just want a lot more from you.

[Hawk]

bruh... did you really claim that fast lol. I'll actually reread and give my reads in a bit.

rolestopper is usually a maf role i think tho. unless we have like a vig or something..

if it's a vig that's all the more reason for it to be scum, because then it serves as a mafia protective.

If we have a cop, that's also more reason for it to be scum, because then it serves as making a buddy untargetable, like an ascetic.

Town rolestopper makes sense too as a protective to stop scum kills, especially if scum have something like a rolecop/Neapolitan/vanilla cop, because then not only can it stop a kill but it can help stop scum from their investigation.

It's all setup spec. What I don't like is the urgency on an odd day to out himself as an odd-night power role. It makes zero sense as town to want to claim it as far away as like L-3 (he did claim at L-2, but asked about it even sooner).

I'm so far behind i didn't even realize he was at L-2 for that claim I thought he was L-4 bleh.

[Hawk]

So AJ is super simple because his ISO is very short and his posts have pretty clear definition. I don't really read him town but I don't scumread him either. The pressure on me is nice. Super quick associative tells is nice but he's wrong about me and Lowell and I honestly feel like my inactivity is causing that so thats my fault. I'll respond to each of these in question then I'm going to ISO Lowell next so that I can maybe dissolve any pairing there since I'm town so I don't know who my team is.

ECMitchell, Tarata can I interest you in this wonderful investment called 'avatars'? They're never out of style.

@Lowell - So you would have been okay with the pressure on WhemeStar if you'd thought of it before me? Is that a habit that will carry through the game? Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town.

Sadly Lil Uzi Vert is too bad to unvote.

Have you played with LuV before? Asking for a friend.

Can I ask if there's any reason you said that? Or if its just you're curiosity as why my vote is on him

Freedom of speech dictates you can ask whatever you want.

The reason is two-fold. First, my understanding of RVS is standard etiquette is to help push wagons early for reactions. This is how you get out of RVS, someone does something funny-looking (i.e. what sheep did). Secondly, specific to Uzi, he's generally lynchbait so I was interested if you knew this coming in. Pushing Uzi right from the start is a really easy scum read and a super easy way to look productive on someone who doesn't necessarily reflect pressure well.

Okay so.. Let me ask you a simple question; Was your post in question a joke or other wise non-serious post that is NAI?

It was a serious question asked in a mocking way, if he hadn't answered it would have been very serious - I leave it to you to classify that in your own joke range.

Btw Sheep, if I for example Whiteknighted you as scum, what would i gain in then instantly swapping you to a scum lean a bit later after i resisted the wagon? doesn't that kinda negate the pocketing the whiteknighting as scum could've possibly gained?

You swapped me after the pressure on me was relieved, which makes sense in a scum concept of hoping the lynch goes through and you look good for being 'right' and shifting me to a lynch option for later also plays to that potential scum play.

No.

I don't play this "answer my questions game." If you think that makes me scum for it IDGAF. I don't sit here and do what people tell me to do. That's not how I play so get off your damn high horse with this "I'd like you to do this" bullcrap.

You've already shown me you'll give absurd logic with that avatar retort. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. It helps nobody.

Could you at least address the point where I called you a misrepper/liar for how you changed up what Lowell said and then attacked me over my reaction to something that wasn't said?

Because I'd love to talk about that.

Vote: Frogger

Okay, my current scumreads don't exactly include you but this jump at the end is fucking atrocious. You go from 'let's talk' to voting frogger, who you claim to want to have a discussion with. You're so incredibly nitpicky especially in latter pages about what frogger said and not about what frogger's DONE. Because you attacking doesn't really solve anything Frogger had pushed for the last couple of pages.

While we're at it, Hawk is scum. He's sidelining as hell waiting for Frogger to push this lynch through for him. Not sure scumpartners but I think Lowell could be a second.

VOTE: Hawk

Frogger, I'm reading Cooperative sheep as scum if Hawk isn't, but this shit looks like heavy flailing. Other than this:

I generally like Naomi's entrance.
I also am okay with Terata.
That said I would tend to expect one scum amongst Terata, Naomi, and Chaos - just due to not having a town read on him and having one on the other two, I'll call it as Chaos.
I agree with people that are not a fan of Uzi's vote, but find it odd that some of these same people aren't citing Lowell.

There's really nothing outside a supposed 'slip' to call scum. And he's also picking up good reads otherwise (lowell/hawk).

So this is a really good post because to be honest its a very quick engaged post and directs attention to a good spot (me) I don't think I played early game well and I probably come off as pretty scummy early on. Especially with the sidelining comment. Boy was I a lurker. Also note that AJ kinda was doing the same thing here except he didn't have his vote on Sheep/LUV (who I had it on first and jumped off of sheeps vote but no one seems to notice that or think my jump wasn't me directing attention even tho I explain it as such post 130 people just didn't but it I guess?)

Theres only one thing I don't like about it and thats lining up lynches! Yay lynch lining. This isn't good for winning town points from me AJ, like I can understand really digging into the Lowell/Hawk pair and if I'm not scum then Sheep is but if you're scum with Sheep this is an easy way to buy loads of loads of loads of town points here setting this up. Say I flounder and don't do well at defending myself and this lynch goes through by the end of the day (I lynch) I flip green we lynch Sheep he flips red oh looky AJ was right. Whew looks bad. Untrained eye might look good but experienced town and scum know this can look very very shady! I don't like that play by him as side from that its a pretty good post. Only thing that gets really bad scum points tho. Everything else looks like good hunting.

Yeah but you're still not taking my advice and getting a fucking avatar.

Lowell's RVS vote tipped me off that he wasn't interested in either being part of the Whemestar wagon or was afraid of the attention. Then he hops on (what I think is) an easy mislynch. Same sort of style as Hawk.

Tbh if I was a god this scumteam is Whemestar/Hawk/Lowell because of Lowell's actions, but it could just be avoiding attention.

You're not god, that is not the scumteam (maybe Wheme and Lowell are paired idk) I'm not apart of it. Just thought I should let yall know.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because Wheme's ISO is super sparce and so is mine so it looks really scummy.

Gerry I'm still interested in:

Gerry, do you not have any opinions on who's scum now that your earlier wagon is somewhat contestable?

@Fro99er you and I have got to play more. That was almost exactly what I expected when you voted Chaos. The other thing I'd mention is that Chaos and Sheep have followed me both on Wheme and Hawk, which has been a bit weird considering in each time, this presents the next biggest counterwagon to sheep.

Hawk-Lowell and Chaos-Sheep have both shown patterns of following each other a bit more than I'd be comfortable with thus far. And uh...

AJ. The only real, strong townread I have in this game. His calling out hawk posts are spot on, and he's in general a good kind of lurker. The one that shows up, is right, then leaves.

????

This is my most recent substantive post...

Yeah but you're still not taking my advice and getting a fucking avatar.

Lowell's RVS vote tipped me off that he wasn't interested in either being part of the Whemestar wagon or was afraid of the attention. Then he hops on (what I think is) an easy mislynch. Same sort of style as Hawk.

Tbh if I was a god this scumteam is Whemestar/Hawk/Lowell because of Lowell's actions, but it could just be avoiding attention.

Uhhhhhhhh what the fuck do I say about this?

I don't like this, associative pairings this early while I understand the case presented is pretty easy to lump it together isn't a good way to read early. I don't like the lack of engagement. Like your reasoning on Whemestar being scum is very dependant on his playstyle being too lazy. So let me pose this question. If Wheme is lynched today and flips green where does that leave me and lowell for you?

No, if Wheme is scum, game's over because his partners are Lowell/Hawk.

Bleh stop stop stop, associative tells day 1 are disgusting. I did Wheme's ISO let me do Lowell's now. I'm going to grab a quick bite but going to finish posting at least a few more people tonight.

[Hawk]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

This is true. If you're an unbelievable claim (aka there is no basis for us to believe or not believe you solely off of the claim alone) then leaving you alive for scum is fine since you aren't anything tomorrow but a VT who claimed. I'd be okay lynching here if we have too but I don't like it right now I want to give the day some more time to develop.

[Hawk]

@sheep- Yeah, I don't really care about whatever you're saying. chaos is scum so I'm voting him.

This is the only thing in Lowell's ISO I felt the need to comment on. He's pretty dismissive of sheep here but states multiple times in different places that he isn't sold on Sheep's defense so this is important because depending on who flips today Lowell placed himself in some middle ground here to be one either side of the coin if more so leaning sheep is scum.

ISO of Lowell is that he is a lurker that chimes in where he feels nesscary. I don't see anything overly oppurtunistic about his voting or reads so I'm not feeling scum in that direction but I'm not really feeling town either.

I don't like the quantity of Lowell's posting and his directions feel like he doesn't support the main wagon of Sheep yet still scumreads him at times is a bit off to me.

So pretty null to me but I want to come back here depending on how things develop.

Also I don't see associative things between me and Lowell that AJ was pointing out... like maybe we were on similar wagon's around similar times but that's all?

[Hawk]

or could it be that mafia let me make the factional kill and i got stopped from doing the kill that way?

WHAT?

i took me as an example from your perspective. Say im mafia and i made the kill in the night and the rolestopper targetted me, does the kill go through?

This is why I use player A and player B for examples like this people get so flipped out over stuff. Also of note I was apparently confusing Rolestopper with Roleblocker thanks for clarification guys.

[Hawk]

Also I don't see associative things between me and Lowell that AJ was pointing out... like maybe we were on similar wagon's around similar times but that's all?

So the fact that you two both decided to beat a dead sheep was a part of it. The second is that Lowell's posture after I stated this was to say you're scummy but not as scummy as Sheep (as seen by his vote and only FOS on you). Last, you do have a tendency to defend him subtly, specifically in your case vs sheep when you talk about cooperation and shit. And of course you being really into Wheme being town hasn't been that helpful in dissuading my feelings on this. Lowell won't even give a read on Wheme.

Definitely can't say that I understand how committal you are on Lowell. To me, he's pretty cut and dry.

VOTE: Lowell

I will admit though I'm more confident on him being scum. He's blatantly just going for big wagons.

Also, Terata's actions recently are suspect. He actually has Gerry down twice in his reads, null and weak town. He's reading Lowell as town... On the same level of his read on me which is unequivocally garbage. And his Chaos read being scum leans is definitely FOTM rather than actual belief. My belief is he's trying to gauge some reads off of other people and is a bit behind on trends.

I want Fro99er to tell me what about Lowell/Terata's vote switches made him comfortable following that. I know you townread Terata but Lowell looks like a freelancer willing to lynch anyone BUT Wheme at this point.

P-edit: Yeah I don't know if terata is out of his league vs ECMitchell or that's just strong town mitchell but Terata's definitely not winning this argument.

Okay this makes a lot more sense to me. Looking at the ISO only he didn't seem to bad but you're right if I just go through the actual thread he's pretty oppurtunistic. And while I really dislike Sheep's playstyle and his earlier play that wagon seems to be going nowhere so I can agree more with this.

Terata still seems town to me even if a bit suspect but I'll reserve actual judgment for later. His argument with ECM is pretty weak. Also ECM responded very well to that pressure town points there.

Gerry pings me a lot same with Penguin because of how little they've posted. Welcome back LUV and welcome fitz.

[Hawk]

Re: Hawk's wall on me.

Complains that I don't sound at all times like I'm considering Frogger might be town.
Complains that, when i call Frogger town, I express distaste and issues with Frogger applying a case on me based off something that didn't happen.
Hangs a hat on how he's attacking me for attacking him.
Complains that I'm not on Chaos, even though I specifically said I was on the Hawk wagon because it was bigger.

tl:dr - I don't find his arguments town indicative.

I don't see the issue here. Bad arguments doesn't make someone scum.

Are you trying to say that his arguments are so bad and contrived that they couldn't possibly be coming from town?

Pretty much exactly that - I'm well aware that bad arguments don't prove scum, but there is a difference between bad arguments I think the person believes and bad arguments that I don't.

His rebuttal is a bunch of empty blah, and despite a giant wall of this blah that he seems to want people to believe he buys, he doesn't care that I pooh-pooh it, he is softly shopping around for options elsewhere, and he isn't even engaging me anymore. He doesn't believe what he's saying - if he did he'd be at least slightly piffed that I'm mocking it so much (check out Frogger who I actually caught misunderstanding/misrepping me - he was annoyed and quadrupled down on his beliefs - that's actual conviction and proves that no matter what I thought about the case, he believed the case.

Hawk can't be arsed.
He's scum.

If you actually read my walls you'd realize most of my case against you not including what Fro99er put out is because your playstyle is bad and you make ridiculous amounts of assumptions and even if Fro99er misunderstood you I didn't. You made a statement assuming that Lowell would never sheep a vote and many other assumptions. I even admit in my giant wall of text that You are either scum or really bad town. Like your logic is bad. Could you be town sure. Do I think so? naaahhh not really.

Also when I flip green your adament opinion that I'm scum isn't going to look too good

[Hawk]

Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.

I don't nesscarily scumread Wheme but I can see the arguments for why he's scum. I'm more inclined to believe the claim than not. So Chaos from someone who isn't sold but isn't unwilling to lynch Wheme why should I vote Wheme here? Why is it better for me to go against my belief that Wheme is actually town PR and buy the case that he's scum fake claiming?

[Hawk]

Okay I get that, I'm saying I understand and don't have a great read on Wheme. But from my POV I'm inclined to believe it's a town Aligned claim and not a scum claiming with a town alignment. I just wanted maybe something more than what you had said or maybe what your thoughts are if Wheme does flip green?


Also post game remind me to come back here because I'm very new to Normals and non open setups so I want some clarification later about my own play and logic here.

[Hawk]

Frogs, Hawk's, Sheep, Penguins this game is a menagerie.

It can be indicative of scum Sheep just like you think me consistently attacking you because I don't like your logic and your assumptions about players is scummy -_-;;

Frog whats your opinion on Terata and ECM's argument a few pages back?

[Hawk]

It can be indicative of scum Sheep just like you think me consistently attacking you because I don't like your logic and your assumptions about players is scummy -_-;;

At least Frog acted like he believed I didn't make logical sense.
Your attack is "oooh, an *assumption*" as though that's remotely something town don't do - then you claim I lack logic, with something like that being your evidence...which, y'know, shows no lack of logic on my end, and even if it *did* is still a playstyle complaint, unless you're claiming I'm normally very logical, but am intentionally being illogical because I'm scum.

Meanwhile, you remain scum, pushing an empty case emptily, and trying to sell around for another now that you're being left alone to push this one.

Your arguments for why Lowell would be hard to agree with is a logical fallacy called a False Dilemma... You present the case as only having two possible outcomes when you say in post 180

"The idea that he would never sheep does support A and B cleanly and without effort."

A and B being this from Fro99er

"a) he would have been ok with voting there if nobody else did

b) that he was being difficult to cooperate with"

You make an assumption about Lowell and say he never sheeps therefor your logic makes sense here. Thus presenting us the idea that if Lowell never sheeps he is uncooperative and if Lowell does sheep he would be Cooperative and your argument that Lowell's statement (I'm not a sheep, Sheep) is an absolute saying he never sheeps. You see what I'm saying?

Like your use of assumptions on why Lowell does something and it relating to how he would play the game throws shade, and your playstyle to this continues to create these logical fallacies where because someone is doing something and you make an assumption to make it logical you present yourself only two options aka he's scum because scum do this and he's town because town do this.

Like right now you're assuming I cannot have town motivation for attacking you over and over for a playstyle that lacks logic. You simply close your mind off to possibilities outside your own thoughts. Lowell says something that I mean to take as he never sheeps therefor he would be uncooperative as a townie taking that mindset into the future, and it's either this or its not. No middle ground. So let me ask him a loaded question assume an answer and then ask a follow up question because thats logic.

Hawk and Fro99er attack me and my logic but my logic makes sense they're just misrepping or misunderstanding me not possible that there is indeed something wrong in my logic and I'm stuck in a fallacy that I actually believe. So since I'm town they must be scum because my logic makes fucking sense because *assumption about player x or situation"

like fuck do you get it?


Pedit: I don't like WhemeStar response to Chaos. It feels very much like. Deflect. Give me a second I want to pull something and ask a question.

[Hawk]

Sheep and Frogger have been going at it all game. At first I thought it was froggy just trying to get reactions out of others, but then it kept going on and on. After reading both of their posts over and over I think sheep is trying to just blame froggy of not reading his posts/answering his questions/misrepping him. Which I think is a scummy move, just asking questions over and over again. I thought sheep's slip wasn't really a slip, but his posts lately have me thinking he is possible scum.

That's very last part. Please point to which posts lately (aka around or before 458). That helped flip or start flipping your read to Sheep.

[Hawk]

ECM get an avatar boi!!

Okay so walk me through two things. Walk me through the part of Terata's ISO that ping you and walk me through how Wheme and Chaos could be scum buddies because I think it's a safe assumption to make by Fro99er but I want to know what I didn't see.

[Hawk]

@Hawk - what about your assumption that I'm actually;

1. Believing in only two options.
2. Applying that as a scum/town read to Lowell.

Because neither is supported by evidence, and, if you think believing an absolute like "either Sheep has logic, or is using this stilted fallacy" is a fallacy - then aren't you doing the same thing?
But I'm actually able to understand that you need to present a reaction to cause a reaction - but you're pretending that you don't.

Do you listen to yourself talk?

First let me show some evidence since I think you're wrong.

If his answer is "I absolutely didn't do that" then my question has no bearing.
If his answer is "yeah, that's about right" then I would like to save some time and get an answer to the immediate and needed followup question.

How do you consider the question to be shade throwing exactly?

My response to this is to refer to my question to your Post 41. Because it's only shade if other people would consider the behavior neutral.

You present two options then defend your argument that it's not shade throwing by dismissing that Lowell could have a neutral response meaning at least right here you thought his answer could only be alignment indicative.

At the RVS stage you shouldn't have to do that - which means either it's a really bad habit, or he was salivating scum who got overexcited.

Presenting case as two options once again to throw shade.

I continue to dislike Lowell for the early stuff that he opted to dodge and the notes mentioned here.

Would also do Lowell, but I'll sheep AJ for the moment.

My scum reads remain about the same, I'll remind people that I've had issues with Chaos for some time now,

You clearly scumread Lowell here (if im wrong explain) for early responses and somewhat off the basis he wasnt being Cooperative with you even if your vote isn't there. This makes me think that you do believe that his response was aligned to a scumread on Lowell.

He doesn't believe what he's saying - if he did he'd be at least slightly piffed that I'm mocking it so much (check out Frogger who I actually caught misunderstanding/misrepping me - he was annoyed and quadrupled down on his beliefs - that's actual conviction and proves that no matter what I thought about the case, he believed the case.

Hawk can't be arsed.
He's scum.

I will agree that your "case" against me is easily read as one giant vague playstyle attack that doesn't show scum intent.
You say 'assumption' I say 'stating an opinion' - either way neither is scummy and it's silly to treat it as such.

Notice how you present two options again to defend your argument? it's fine if you don't believe that there only two options. You're smarter than that. It's not as simple as a straight False Dilemma instead you present two options and then file in a loaded question or don't explore option z.

Like right here. You say it's silly because either way you put it it's not scummy. What I'm saying is the use is scummy.

You make an "assumption" Present a case as X or Y until someone says Z and if they don't say Z you use that as logic. That's scummy behavior to me. Like with Frog. You presented it as either he is town with a bad habit/belief or salivating scum using a misrep. Until Frog was able to present Z (misunderstanding) you didn't waver. And when you did you simply Rephrase him as X because that lines up with your logic making you right in that argument. You see how that's very manipulative and scummy right?

That's why I scum read you.

[Hawk]

Frog why are you town reading Gerry? Im looking over Penguins case and I understand the hypocritical thinking of Lurking but why are we defending Gerry here? I mean Gerry has been pretty much a non factor all game.

[Hawk]

Frog why are you town reading Gerry? Im looking over Penguins case and I understand the hypocritical thinking of Lurking but why are we defending Gerry here? I mean Gerry has been pretty much a non factor all game.

Because I have no reason to scumread Gerry.

His lurking isn't a scum indicator for him from what i've seen of him.

And the posts he has made with substance haven't been scummy

I'm not sold. Gerry feels more null to me than anything else. I don't like that he's Lurking the way he is. Dropping soft claims like it's nothing also doesn't really have alignment indication but the way he's doing it without any pressure on him feels overly safe and could be more breadcrumbing scum than town. But I'll just leave that since I don't see anything else that points to scum or town.

Now about Penguin

Is your read list in 345 still accurate or at least with only slight change of moving Gerry down over everyone else in that nullscum section?

If so can you expand on them some more for me.

You say you null read Gerry cause everything he's done so far is null. But now you're agitated that he still hasn't provided more in depth reads and is coasting?

[Hawk]

Meh, I guess i did.

Yeah 634 For those who didn't look.

So let's go back to something else why is ECM scumreading Terata bad. Is it more bad as in he shouldn't because Terata is Town or is it bad in the sense the logic is bad? Cause the logic for his defense seems fine from ECM to me Looks more TvT than tvS honestly.

[Hawk]

Fro99er you still think Wheme is scum? why not lynch Wheme shoot Sheep?

Sheep I don't like your resignment to defeat here. If you're town why are you giving up that's literally not playing to your wincondition. If you say you actually thought Frogger believed his thoughts and that's why he is town then shouldn't you show the same gumption to prove your town as well?

Like while I've been on Sheep all game because of his poor playstyle his change in attitude here bothers me. What happened to the Wheme counter wagon?

Wheme you've been awfully quiet this whole time till we flipped onto sheep. I don't like that.

[Hawk]

Wheme is L-3 and Sheep is L-5.

Fitz unvoted and is VLA till Sunday so he's probably not getting back before a no lynch. I'm okay with lynching Wheme if Fro99er is shooting sheep. I don't like sheeps play and I'm even more dissappointed he's resigning to defeat here.

Wheme who does you flipping green out as scum???

[Hawk]

If i was actually a vig i would have flashlynched Wheme for that claim.

Rolestopper is almost always scum if there's a vig

Not used to normals sorry if I missed setup info here. Okay that makes more sense....

I mean I guess I'm fine either way if we lynch Wheme or if we lynch Sheep. I'm still inclined to believe Wheme but idk...

Also that's circumstantial Wheme. We can't know for certain on D1 that if you're town that Chaos is scum... Chaos could just really prefer this wagon to any other.

If we want to lynch Sheep convince everyone over on WhemeStar wagon that this one is better but otherwise if we don't reach consensus soon (next 24 hours) I'm okay pushing through Wheme lynch. I could be wrong about his alignment so.

[Hawk]

I mean.

Hawk doesn't question that i'm the vig (and therefore town) and looks like he's just ok with lynching a claimed PR and shooting sheep. That just reads like he's ok with two people dying and he doesn't even question it.

We're a day from no lynch we had a VLA and a looking for a replacement when I voted that and the votes are divided. No one's offering anything besides Lowell besides Wheme and Sheep are still top lynches -_- also I have reasoning I just don't feel like claiming it as its mostly.mechanical.

Lynching Wheme is not what id like to do and have left ny vote on sheep. Like I said before if we can't come.up with something I guess I'm okay with wheme. I could be wrong and his alignment could be scum though I think it's town. But if more people don't Vote sheep we just end up no lynching by the end of this day the way the votes are being spread.

Also why am I being singled out on your PR claim? No one else said anything either. And whether you're joking or not you've been playing like a PR and dropping hints like "I'm more powerful" this game -_-. I didn't refute it cause I have no reason to not believe your PR claim? I say I'm okay with lynching Wheme if you are shooting sheep because while Wheme isn't my ideal lynch today (sheep is) if we don't move some votes from other places we no lynch today...

[Hawk]

If sheep isn't happening Im okay with Lowell or Penguin I guess... Wheme is fine too but I'm putting down for the record I don't think that he's scum based off things I know about this setup.

[Hawk]

Okay of the two Penguin I guess is worse but honestly they're not my top choices. I can see the scummy intent Fro99er pointed out before with him calling out scum on Gerry who was doing roughly the same thing Penguins done here. :/

pedit: Why chaos?

[Hawk]

Missed a lot but it seems kinda fluffy. Its more because of my role I think I'm more inclined to believe that Wheme being odd night rolestopper is a town role... But I could be wrong. I don't know all the possible roles and combinations universally so it's just spec on the setup.

Chaos is okay I'd rather vote sheep but I'll vote Chaos. I missed the quick flip on Whemes claim that Alisae pointed out so I'm feeling better about this vote.

VOTE: Chaos

[Hawk]

That's scum pretending to be lazy and putting no effort to solve the game.

To be fair Wheme's done this too since he claimed. 90% of his posts revolve around maintaining a newbish feel and facade. Or answering questions directed at him. He makes very little to no proactive action towards other players or to question they're reads. Just look at the last half of the day.

Like I said before I could be wrong.

I think Gerry's actions are fine as town. Ali you came in on a lurking slot and immediately 180'd the persona. But if we were reading the slot scummy before which Gerry was I can see why he's hesitant to like you coming in.

[Hawk]

So are you scumreading him for his activity level or because he's scum reading you when you called him Manipulative and coasting?

Like what do you want him to do. Not push back?

Pedit: OR he could be threatening to Vig you (eyeroll)

[Hawk]

Okay the hubris I can see, and it's kinda awkward if he's a Vig to just put it all out there like that I can see that. Especially since it would most likely mean Wheme is scum in which case we should be back on Wheme.

I can see where you are coming from Ali. Why him over one of our other sr's?? I thought you wanted Lowell over Chaos.

pedit: I missed the mod meta thing. Fire doesn't use Vigi? Okay well I can see that. Sure.

VOTE: Gerry

Last time we pressed low activity and got crappy push back we were right only you did get vig'd sure.

[Hawk]

Alisae is scum btw. He's asking questions to sound like he's scumhunting but he's mafia.

And okay. How long did you play on starcraft? Did they have roles like this place?

Some of the rules are the same, most are different, some are same power but different name. I played for about 1 and a half years. The Normal set up on it was 9-3-3 though with 9 town 3 mafia and 3 neutral roles.

Aka it's town of salem.

Starcraft Mafia is faster paced and pick up style.more.close to town of salem than forum mafia.

Is this your only experience playing Mafia Wheme?

[Hawk]

Eh. Gerry's ISO doesn't sit well with me. Like most of it is null, pretty coasting but I was reading it as really low flying town PR maybe scum PR. Not my top pick for pressure points d1.

I definitely wouldn't be doing this if we hadn't gotten the 48 hrs extension cause I still am not confident this lynch will go through of the small case you've presented. Plus I'm not sold on Chaos either. :/

pedit: Wheme is newb got it. No offense.

[Hawk]

Its more because of my role I think I'm more inclined to believe that Wheme being odd night rolestopper is a town role... But I could be wrong. I don't know all the possible roles and combinations universally so it's just spec on the setup.

Do not claim your role. Is your power odd-night?

------

I do think Wheme being town is pretty incriminating for Chaos. And I cannot support Chaos' reaction to Wheme's claim

I didn't think I'd have to clarify this, but I've seen so far this game nuance is lost on you. I am a PR that doesn't really jive with a town rolestopper. With Hawk, Gerry, and me all claiming power of some sort, I'm more inclined to believe a rolestopper is scum. It's how I balanced a mini I ran a while back.

No chaos.

Is yours?

[Hawk]

Question rolestopper is more inclined to be scum based off the number of PR's town has right even if it is Odd/even night?

Because I may not understand my role in conjuction to whemes well as I thought if that's the case in this setup.

Sorry I've been here just trying to process all this information.

[Hawk]

Okay so we should lynch wheme then. Like I said before I'm new to normals so trying to spec the setup based off the fact that my role isn't. VT is hurting my brain.

VOTE: Wheme

[Hawk]

In reply to Hawk, I thought Sheep VS froggy was TvT at first, but then I started to think that Sheep was scum, didn't like his responses to frog and how he asked questions over and over then called out frog for being scum for not answering those questions.
With Gerry its hard too explain, but all game his posts haven't said much and he's been around all game. I just don't think scum would want to do that, I haven't read his other games to see if this is how he is every game though.
I liked Lowell's recap of everything in 355. Made it easier to read the game IMO.
Look @ Lowell's 355 and then AJ's 374, if you look at it a certain way it looks like Lowell just slipped.

This may be a dumb question and I may be reading my role wrong, but if I hit a PR is that bad? I mean the PR can still do night actions, I just block the actions on the PR. So I can stop him getting hit by mafia can I not?

Wheme, can you cite the posts that gave you pause and caused you to 180 on Sheep?

Hawk's wall on you, combined with his post on Wheme, looks like an attempt to derail the Wheme lynch and drag attention back to you. The case reads as recycled material and having an agenda. He's my top scumread not named WhemeStar.

His ISO #8, #9, #11, he voted Froggy for not answering his questions, which looks like to me he tried to get a wagon on froggy going and get pressure of of him

So are you guys saying me flipping town will out two scum?

In reply to Hawk, i don't like Sheeps posts #451 & #449. In 449 he said that he believes Chaos is scum, but why hasn't he voted him at all?

inconsistency with how he flipped on sheeps wagon. One post he says he was flipping the read on a reread based off first RVS posts. When I ask the same question in a different light and ask why he flips his read around (450ish range) he instead cites posts in that range instead of saying ask round that time I reread the ISO. I realize that I did point to a location of posts but the inconsistency feels jarring to me rereading his ISO.

The rest of the game from his claim forward his play feels very appeasing even going so far as to talk about what town gains from lynching himself and setting up future lynches. This could be read as newbish town but somethings sticking out to me because after being town read and even having his lynch basically stopped and reconsidered he doesn't push forward towards other players lynches instead just sheeps votes as new wagons form.

Hey froggy you seem to play a lot of normals and know the balanced set ups. What can hawk possibly be to confirm me as town rolestopper besides scum?

Also I understand there is a lot of role talk discussion but this felt like fishing to me and I don't see why he would bring this up again as town since if he really is town aligned the last thing we need is more discussion that could lead to another town outting there exact PR. As it stands all PR claims besides Wheme's are soft and honestly should probably stay that way.

Somethings just not sitting right here Fro99er I may be inexperienced in normal setups but it feels like this isn't good :/.

[Hawk]

Why is Wheme the lead wagon. Does his claim not count for anything?

I think people have taken Chaos and myself as CC's. Honestly I'm still super unsure but I keep finding small things that point one way or the other...

I am not CCing Wheme by the way guys. I'm just trying to figure out in what Universe we are living and how the balance of the setup makes sense with my role in conjunction with believing or not believing Wheme's role and alignment. :/

[Hawk]

Hawk how were you CC when you said previously that your role confirms mine

More PRs makes it more likely you are scum remember I just asked that for clarification.

AJ do you still want to lynch Lowell? if Lowell flips scum are you intent that I am partners with Lowell?

[Hawk]

Okay that seems reasonable.

No I just said I'm unsure Wheme. I really don't know how to read this situation.

No I'm just not sold Lowell is scum if you have your SR because I was wrong and he was scum then so be it. I can see the associations I just don't think they're very good.

We need to start narrowing this lynch pool.

Fro99er are you not sus of Ali's slot at all? Penguin was playing much differently than Ali but Ali and Penguin both ended up back on gerry...

[Hawk]

Ugh fine sure let's lynch Lowell afterwords you can lynch me so long as when I flip green ya'll lynch wheme or sheep.

VOTE: Lowell

Lowell's using me as cover if he's scum if not this is all fucked to shit because I'm bad. Sorry guys.

[Hawk]

You realize that the case on you is that if Lowell flips scum, you're scum. I've explained this multiple times and EVERY TIME you act like this leads to your death.

Are you agreeing with me here?

Sure yeah, I'm fine with Lowell lynch looks good. I know I'm not scum. I don't know how to convince ya'll I'm not :/

If he flips red and ya'll think you have to lynch me after great. If he flips green then I guess I'm in the clear?

I think I'm just not understanding this game state right now so yeah do whatever.

[Hawk]

Like seriously associative tells d1 are bullshit. Same with meta reads -_- which makes me seriously annoyed by all the pandering of why Fro99er is town but I don't feel like calling it out because I actually read Fro99er town besides that so it's a terrible thing to point out.

I don't understand the setup or why a PR claim even came close to lynch anyway but tried to wrap my head around it cause I am PR but not one I've ever experienced or seen played, but I'm fairly new to forum mafia so blow me a hard one AJ. I'm not keeping pace so yeah ending near the day lynch Lowell I don't like his re-emergence and it reaks of framing me if we push through his lynch anyway.

Pedit: Backup and reread my ISO and maybe you'll understand?

[Hawk]

Uhhh link doesn't go anywhere for me :/ sorry if I shouldn't say this idk what this is.

[Hawk]

I like the motion of this ocean.
Except for Hawk, he can die next.

Do you even care if I'm town? -_-;

[Hawk]

Here's a good question considering this game state feels like we're moving away from a wheme lynch. Wheme who are you TRing and are we going with the Wheme proc chaos, chaos does his thing?

Pedit: Yes now fucking answer my question I was about to post you wizard.

[Hawk]

Sheep I don't think even reads my posts and just assumes I vote the biggest wagon just because...... -_-;

I literally vote in this order Sheep (RVS), Luv (Moving pressure getting feels), Sheep (scumread), Chaos (actually point to a reason pointed out by another player tho I misspoke I don't think it was Alisae who pointed out the quick flip from Chaos), Gerry (Feeling out Ali's vote), Wheme(against my judgment), and now Lowell (which even if I think he might be scum if flips red apparently is a death knell to me)

Pedit:
Terata I was told sheep wasn't happening today :/. Please go over why sheep as well as your other reads because your inactivity has left questions I'm sure.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Sheep This is where I was days ago and was told it wasnt happening -_-;;

Inb4 someone derails

[Hawk]

Holy you guys started posting a lot, @hawk I'm not comfortable revealing who I'm going to protect. Don't have any solid town reads

I wasn't asking you too I was asking who your TR's are...

I also was just asking in general if the plan was you chaos and thus and thus -_-;;

[Hawk]

I don't feel like lynching Gerry or Ali. To me both those slots are null enough to pass over. Lowell and Sheep bother me more.

Wheme if and when I flip it'll make more sense why I was okay with you getting lynched. I townread your slot. Scumlean your play. And have a mechanical reason to think you're town but if we were truly suspect of your alignment I was more okay with it than trying to pull teeth pushing elsewhere when the game state was a fuzzy mess to me cause I was too focused on roles....

Gerry I voted and sheeped because I felt like actually getting Gerry to engage despite me not liking Ali's slot more was worth it before d2. Gerry hadn't posted anything so it couldn't hurt at that point to sheep the vote.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Sheep

[Hawk]

Is he ded

Idk.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Sheep

JK I care but this was the best gif I had.

[Hawk]

Oh I thought you were pulling a Grey for reactions.

[Hawk]

How long till deadline

8 hours almost exactly.

[Hawk]

Is Lowell that one guy who had attempted the most obvious buddying towards me?

Possibly. He liked your entrance after you subbed in for Lil and doesn't like Fitz. so if that's budding I guess but it's hard to tell exactly what Lowell is doing :/.

[Hawk]

Maybe I'll kill the hawk tonight

How can you kill hawk when he's scum

Am I still being scumread because that's crap :/

[Hawk]

His avatar isn't a hawk though so I don't really count it

Also will it count now? :p
Fro99er should know I'm town btw.

[Hawk]

Get us* somewhere... Damn phone. And havingfitz your reaction to someone else's lynch is a bit more emotional than I think it should be.

Did Sheep ever claim? Probably doesn't matter with the four others who claimed power roles. As a reminder, if we have a vigilante, shoot the role stopper WhemeStar.

Fairly certain we determined Fire doesn't do Vigi but we will see.

[Hawk]

Rip hawk

But if you're town you can save me from Vigi kill right ♡♡♡ lol

I like MnM's skittles are too sugary for my tastes.

[Hawk]

I like MnM's skittles are too sugary for my tastes.

wtf why don't you like skittles?
Can you not feel the rainbow?
You wanna know what the rainbow symbolizes?
Oh wait you probably know
SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE AGAINST IT?
HUH? HUH?

I hate that they have it better than the rest of us and horde it all to themselves. I mean don't you? They just sit there laughing with their short little selves on their pots of gold eating they're marshmallow cereal and laughing

Fuck you leprechauns I want Gold and Cereal too God damnit.

Grumble grumble.