Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Gerryoat because he hates RVS

[Fro99er]

VOTE: WhemeStar

Let's wagon this RVS hater.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: WhemeStar

Let's wagon this RVS hater.

Your information is out of date, go back to post #9

Lynch all liars.

your post 9 is a lie, obv

[Fro99er]

unless your post is a lie about mine being a lie, which makes you a liar, and we should lynch all liars.

Then vote me if you think that's the case.

[Fro99er]

@Lowell - So you would have been okay with the pressure on WhemeStar if you'd thought of it before me?

He never said that. OH LOOK I'M ANSWERING FOR HIM

Is that a habit that will carry through the game?

Why not wait for his answer of your first question instead of jumping to that's what he did and thus, will you do this all game. That's a bit of shade throwing.

Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town.

This is accusatory and gross.

VOTE: Sheep

[Fro99er]

I hardclaim town.

NICE

[Fro99er]

I like my vote

[Fro99er]

You should vote me if I did that.

He did.

Why did you snip out the vote?

[Fro99er]

How do you consider the question to be shade throwing exactly?

Because you are asking him if that's a habit he will carrying through the game, which you already implied is a bad habit.

It's throwing shade because a) there's no guarantee that "habit" is what he actually did, and b) you are taking an assumption about something he did and implying it's something that *could* be carried through the game by him.

[Fro99er]

Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town.

This is accusatory and gross.

It's definitely accusatory - that's part of the basis of the game.
You're accusing me of things also, that's how Mafia is played. You make accusations and assess responses.
What makes my accusation specifically an issue for you? Because "making an accusation" is assuredly something town can and should do in the game, so if it's your whole case on me you might as well cite that my avatar has the color white in it for all it actually does to suggest scum intent. Can you expand on this thought?

Oh, here we go. Scum likes to say, "but you are doing what I did".

The accusation is an issue because it's not a guarantee that's something he did, and because you are applying it to his future play and then shading it with "that will make it hard to cooperate with you" type stuff.

Then you make an absurd argument about avatars which has nothing to do with the issue at hand. A complete deflection of what we're talking about.

[Fro99er]

He assuredly implied it via his semi-indirect answer to my original question though.

No, he said he didn't want to sheep the sheep.

That doesn't mean he would have voted him had you not voted. There was another vote on him before your vote, so maybe he wouldn't have wanted to sheep the other person voting as well.

You are making a leap in logic at best, doing this intentionally to throw shade at worst.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: WhemeStar

Wheme, what are your thoughts on Sheep and the quick L-2 wagon on him?

Why not give your thoughts?

[Fro99er]

Y'all have no balls if you're not willing to ship out a L-1 wagon RVS style

[Fro99er]

[l
Speaking of - I'd like you to respond to my questions.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8812488

No.

I don't play this "answer my questions game." If you think that makes me scum for it IDGAF. I don't sit here and do what people tell me to do. That's not how I play so get off your damn high horse with this "I'd like you to do this" bullcrap.

You've already shown me you'll give absurd logic with that avatar retort. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. It helps nobody.

[Fro99er]

Interesting. Curious to see frogger's take on it.

You are curious to see my own take on my own push?

I think sheep is scum. I see zero reason for sheep to come in and make a jump in logic like that just to say something like "is it going to be difficult to work with you" when I got absolutely zero of that from lowell's post.

It was purely a jump in logic to throw shade.

As for the slip, I can see what gerry is talking about. I try to find those kinds of slips EVERY game, and Chaos I know you do at least at times as you did in MAFICEPTION with Pepto (which i then seized on and tied Titus to that slip so we for sure had two scum nailed down from it). I find slip resistance (as Titus did) more scummy than pointing out a slip, in general, although it's not a hard and fast tell.

[Fro99er]

Frogger has also shown a bit of lack of responding to things otherwise.

I've responded to every post of your except the one, which I just explicitly said I will not respond to because it doesn't benefit town to go around in circles with you.

Do not throw more bullshit shade especially when it's explicitly false what you are saying

[Fro99er]

The slip that people are pushing is dumb, and I have no strong feelings on the Sheep slot.

Hmmm.

I don't think it's dumb.

[Fro99er]

I absolutely trust that - you should place a vote so the rest of town can sheep you.

It's teeeible for two reasons.

First, he makes it sound like he knows Gerry is town with the "rest of town"

Second, he didn't include himself with the rest of town.

[Fro99er]

Here's Chaos pointing out a slip: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7396328

"Like he knows Mario is town"

That's what a I get from reading Sheeps post is that it looks "like he knows Gerry is town"

[Fro99er]

Scum also like to accuse me of failing to answer questions. It's their easiest pushback on me when they have little else to accuse me of.

[Fro99er]

Sheep reminds me of Axel Greaser from my first newbie game. I tunneled Axel early, and Axel posted these huge walls with questions inside that I eventually stopped answering because it was getting us nowhere and Inwas tired of reading goddamn walls, and then accused me of not answering questions.

Axel was scum.

[Fro99er]

I'd like to lynch Lowell or Hawk right now, with optional secondaries for Chaos and Frogger.

Says the guy voting Wheme.

(Who also failed to point out Wheme did a WK on him as well but also listed Naomi and Terata as one scum between them and Chaos for a supposed WK (and Terata is the most obvtown in the game so far))

[Fro99er]

Sheep slipped. He spoke like he wasn't part of town.

You should vote me if I did that.
When and how did I do that?

he also didn't deny to slipping, he just wants to know where he did lmao.

[Fro99er]

Bleh that return did just what I said I was giving him Green cred for. losing his position in my mind now.

Right. And after you seeing me not use that as an argument and then me now pushing that as an argument, do you think scum!frog would do that at this point? No. Scum!frog would avoid that argument like the plague to continue to get town cred

[Fro99er]

At least me saying something was a slip got this game moving out of RVS. lmao

Actually, I got the game moving out of RVS with my sheep push but ok.

I'd use this as a point against Gerry as like LAMIAT if he didn't hate RVS so much. But it reads just like he's happy it's out of RVS.

[Fro99er]

Sheep slipped. He spoke like he wasn't part of town.

You should vote me if I did that.
When and how did I do that?

he also didn't deny to slipping, he just wants to know where he did lmao.

You're not serious right? Like this is a joke to me. It's saying "You said you kick puppies!" and me replying "Wait when did I say that?" and you being like "he kicks puppies! He didn't deny it??" like it's implied I don't kick puppies. Just like it's kinda implied he doesn't think he slipped.

Actually he essentially asked "when did I slip" and "how did i slip"

There is no denial he slipped, so Gerry isn't wrong.

[Fro99er]

At least me saying something was a slip got this game moving out of RVS. lmao

I feel like it was Froggy who pointed out the "slip", not you. Don't really like how you take the credit for it too.

No, Gerry pointed out the slip, not me.

[Fro99er]

I will say.

IF

I'm wrong on sheep, Wheme is almost certainly scum. They aren't scum together.

[Fro99er]

Because you are doing one thing that I find scum do, but in this case it could have been done for a town reason. I don't want to point it out yet to see if it continues.

[Fro99er]

@Mod penguin also hasn't posted. Why no replacement search for him?

~Player requested replacement during pregame phase that I missed.

[Fro99er]

No. I'm not talking about WK

[Fro99er]

No, that's not what i said.

I said I don't like when people request I answer their questions, and I find that usually comes from scum.

Asking me a question is fine. Doesn't mean I will answer, and it doesn't mean I won't. Especially fib i find it a good o compelling question that helps the game.

You didn't request an answer from me, so no worries.

[Fro99er]

Mine is more powerful

[Fro99er]

lmao. too nice/soft to call someone scummy, but tells something to "go die"

jk

Frogg, why are you calling me obv town just in passing without any previous mention of me? At which point did you think i became town for you?

Because you're actively engaging the whole game state and trying to break it down. You're not avoiding anything and you're really transparent with your thought process.

Your analysis doesn't read like an attempt to manipulate, instead you are restating the facts and giving your analysis of those facts rather than jumping to conclusions from things that aren't there.

Scum twist things around, make logical leaps, or illogical conclusions. I'm not seeing one iota of that from you.

[Fro99er]

No idea why that first post quoted

[Fro99er]

I'd like to lynch Lowell or Hawk right now, with optional secondaries for Chaos and Frogger.

Says the guy voting Wheme.

(Who also failed to point out Wheme did a WK on him as well but also listed Naomi and Terata as one scum between them and Chaos for a supposed WK (and Terata is the most obvtown in the game so far))

Somehow I moved from secondary to primary.

Got it.

[Fro99er]

Oh me dodging questions is me being scum. Got it.

[Fro99er]

I never dodge questions as town. Never. (sarcasm for those that don't get it)

[Fro99er]

I never dodge questions as town. Never. (sarcasm for those that don't get it)

Do you misrep as town?

No, but I can misunderstand as town. I didn't even read that part of your wall because I am sick of your walls and your demands that I answer you.

Either way, your original logic around Lowell doesn't make sense. If he didn't want to sheep, it does not necessarily imply he would have been ok with voting there had there been zero votes there.

You made a leap in logic to throw shade.

[Fro99er]

So you admit you might be misunderstanding me - but your case on me is based on your understanding of my actions

wrong.

My case on you is you had a leap in logic. Him not wanting to sheep you, or X or Y or anyone else does not imply

a) he would have been ok with voting there if nobody else did

b) that he was being difficult to cooperate with

c) that even if he was being difficult to cooperate with that it meant anything for his future prospects on how he'd play this game

it was just an attempt to make someone look bad by you

[Fro99er]

and you don't wish to read my posts nor discuss anything with me?

I READ ALL YOUR POSTS BUT THAT ONE

STOP FUCKING USING THIS BULLSHIT REASON AS A REASON I AM SCUM

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT AXEL DID

[Fro99er]

Axel accusing me of not answering/reading his posts (as scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6763646
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6766728

Me saying I don't give a fuck about reading his annoying walls (as town)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6767112

[Fro99er]

@Frogger - The idea that he would never sheep does support A and B cleanly and without effort.

[Fro99er]

Axel accusing me of not answering/reading his posts (as scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6763646
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6766728

Me saying I don't give a fuck about reading his annoying walls (as town)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6767112

YET THIS SHEEP GUY USES THE EXACT SAME ARGUMENT AS AXEL TO TRY TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD

and you don't wish to read my posts nor discuss anything with me?

HOW DOES THAT MAKE ME SCUM?

[Fro99er]

Him not wanting to sheep you, or X or Y or anyone else does not imply

a) he would have been ok with voting there if nobody else did

Him not wanting to sheep someone does not imply he would have been ok voting there. We cannot make that leap in logic. Perhaps he didn't want to sheep AND he wasn't ok with voting there anyway. WE DONT KNOW THAT.

You simply cannot make that leap in logic.

NOT

FUCKING

AT

ALL

[Fro99er]

I'd like to lynch Lowell or Hawk right now, with optional secondaries for Chaos and Frogger.

Says the guy voting Wheme.

(Who also failed to point out Wheme did a WK on him as well but also listed Naomi and Terata as one scum between them and Chaos for a supposed WK (and Terata is the most obvtown in the game so far))

Somehow I moved from secondary to primary.

Got it.

Yeah, when you dodged a question about your lie and are acting like on Page 7 that my reads are changing too much and that my vote isn't changing enough it does get a reaction from me, I'll agree.

You used dodging as a reason for moving me from secondary to primary.

So yes, you used it as a reason to scum read me.

[Fro99er]

You keep misunderstanding/misrepping me.

Oh look

Axel loved to say I was misrepping him:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p6753760
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6758755


There is ZERO attempt from you to understand if misreps and ignoring walls is even my town play. You're either in a confbiased tunnel because you hate my push on you...or you're scum. Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

[Fro99er]

You used dodging as a reason for moving me from secondary to primary.

So yes, you used it as a reason to scum read me.

I also cited your lie - want to discuss it now?

WHAT LIE?

[Fro99er]

You mean this supposed lie

No, he said he didn't want to sheep the sheep.

That's not what he said;

Because I'm not a sheep, sheep.

He said he didn't sheep.

That I addressed RIGHT HERE

I never dodge questions as town. Never. (sarcasm for those that don't get it)

Do you misrep as town?

No,

but I can misunderstand as town.

I didn't even read that part of your wall because I am sick of your walls and your demands that I answer you.

I addressed what you thought was a lie. I said I misunderstood.

[Fro99er]

Do frogs and sheeps not get along in the animal kingdom

I'm at the top of the food chain.

We eat sheep for breakfast.

[Fro99er]

you really haven't contributed anything at all yet

par for the course with Gerry

[Fro99er]

Cooperative Sheep has handled the initial pressure very scrupulously, and at the moment I wouldn't have any issue going through with a D1 lynch on them. Terata's responses throughout have also rubbed me the wrong way, particularly how he appearingly defended Cooperative Sheep in saying, "It's likely you just handle your defense awkwardly, regardless of alignment." Shortly after, though, he joined in on the pressure on Cooperative Sheep, flat-out calling him scum. To me it appears he was attempting to play both sides in the event Cooperative Sheep might have actually been lynched so quickly—or in the event everyone backed off and he could be seen as one who wasn't as aggressive in an uncertain lynch.

I think Terata was just adapting their worldview of the game to Sheep's continued play.

I don't really see her joining in on sheep is scum as scum motivated herself. Terata is trying to accurately assess whether sheep would awkwardly defend himself, but then from sheep's later play decided something else that wasn't a defense is scummy. It's certainly possible to think someone awkwardly defending themselves and not be sure if that person would do that as town or scum but then see something that has nothing to do with defense and find it scummy

[Fro99er]

Fro99er, you certainly have an abrasive play style.

I really don't, unless people like sheep piss me off.

[Fro99er]

To confirm, would you like to see Cooperative Sheep lynched today?

Is this a real question?

[Fro99er]

If Terata believed Sheep is probably just awkward, it was a rather quick reverse in joining the bandwagon.

No.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, Terata said she believes sheep's DEFENSE is awkward. Not that sheep is awkward.

I see no issue with a quick reversal on her opinion of him if it's something that isn't related to sheep's defense.

[Fro99er]

He, not she...sorry Terata

[Fro99er]

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

I understand exactly what you're doing.

You continue to push the misrep and lie angle, when I pointed out I simply misread. Misreading is different from intentionally misrepping or lying.

You need to make a case on me that doesn't involve me not reading, thinking I misrepped, or thinking I lied.

[Fro99er]

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

These are exactly the type of manipulative questions scum asks.

"Oh you can accuse that of me but don't you agree you are doing the same?" As in ... look how much of a hypocrite this guys is.

Fun fact, town can be hypocrites. Even then, I'm not being hypocritical. I am understanding your play, despite you suggesting I am not.

This guy is literally resorting to:
"Frog doesn't read"
"Frog is hypocritical"
"Frog misreps"
"Frog lies"

as his argument against me.

[Fro99er]

@AJ

finally someone slapping some sense into this thread.

I can buy sheep is flailing town, but it all reads far too familiar with what I'm used to from having had this happen to me before. I make an early push to get us out of RVS, then the person I pushed re-pushes against me for not reading, misrepping, and not answering. All too familiar.

Why are you scumreading Lowell?

[Fro99er]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

What was awkward about the way I popped in?

If nothing else you were the last one to vote him. Also why acknowledge Naomi and no one else who hadn't posted yet?

@Wheme of the three of us who did you like least? Do you not link early wagons? I think it's getting nice content from Sheep. And generating discussion.

Lil Uzi, I have no problem with them, but its okay to be suspicious of the people who put them at L-2, wouldn't you be suspicious of someone hammering a wagon? Where's the cutoff point on the wagon. I thought it generated good discussion too, froggy got the reactions from people that he wanted.

See Wheme gets it Uzi. Why'd you take us all the way to L-2??

VOTE: LUV

Where/are you that confident that Sheep is scum??? Don't you think L-2 this early is dangerous? I mean I understand pressure but that was playing with a bit of fire there Uzi.

Also to answer your question I interjected because your vote made me pause and contemplate too. So I wanted to engage you.

Actually, I think AJ is right. Also, this post by hawk is gross. Hawk is ok with voting sheep himself, but then when Uzi does it suddenly it's bad to put someone at L-2?

I don't buy that

VOTE: Hawk

Maybe I'm wrong on sheep. But it's such a trash push on me. I can see why he'd think if I intentionally misrepped why I'd be scum. But I didn't. I don't agree with his leap in logic, and I'm still scumreading him for it. But I guess if he really believes his logic then it's not scum motivated. I just really hate implying, with a question, that someone will be uncooperative in the future for something that arguably wasn't uncooperative at all.

[Fro99er]

Frogger, I'm reading Cooperative sheep as scum if Hawk isn't

I can buy this.

I also think this makes AJ town. AJ helps change the tide to Hawk, which would normally be a ping if Sheep is scum. But AJ is more experienced than that, especially directing this at me when we've played together before.

A scum AJ wouldn't want to be tied to a scum Sheep, knowing I'd push the shit out of AJ if sheep was scum.

[Fro99er]

So you agree that you misrepped/misunderstood me?

I already said I misunderstood you. Why do you keep pushing this? It is seriously petty.

[Fro99er]

You continue to push the misrep and lie angle, when I pointed out I simply misread. Misreading is different from intentionally misrepping or lying.

You need to make a case on me that doesn't involve me not reading, thinking I misrepped, or thinking I lied.

So you agree that you misrepped/misunderstood me?
But your case doesn't change?
Okay.

Vote: Hawk

Would also do Lowell, but I'll sheep AJ for the moment.
I actually think Frogger's defense is bad enough I'm reading it as town - the point being if he doesn't see the hypocrisy, it's not scum hypocrisy whether it exists or not.

VOTE: Sheep

this is so gross. Conveniently start to townread me when I have my doubts, despite still discrediting me with those first three lines in the quote, and then jump on the Hawk wagon with me.

No.

[Fro99er]

I can see why he'd think if I intentionally misrepped why I'd be scum.

Now you're just being an asshole

[Fro99er]

Breathe frog, breathe.

This is a game.

I apologize sheep.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: ChaosOmega

Something about this vote feels off.

Can you put your finger on what?

I agreed with the vote, FWIW

[Fro99er]

Vc and do not request a vc. You will get one at least once every five pages.

@Mod can we get a VC

[Fro99er]

For serious though. In like 30 min Penguin will need a replace/prod

[Fro99er]

Actually your rule is 36 hrs, so penguin needs a replace/prod already

[Fro99er]

He's been posting elsewhere on site too. Just not here

[Fro99er]

Fro99er is being force replaced.

Lol

[Fro99er]

Haha. I'm pretty sure Fire is joking

[Fro99er]

I dont think the sheep 'slip' thing is enough to lynch him today btw

All the other stuff is though.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: New England Patriots

[Fro99er]

Finally came or of your scumchat to just throw up a readslist with no explanation?

[Fro99er]

*with little explanation

[Fro99er]

Finally came or of your scumchat to just throw up a readslist with no explanation?

Would have been better if you had phrased it properly. Dunno what you're trying to say - understand the underlying meaning though, with "or of your..."

I'm not going to post a lot of info based on my catching up. I do better with real time interaction. Sorries.

Came out of

[Fro99er]

Look forward to it

Look forward to you actually contributing

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Chaos

explanation incoming

[Fro99er]

Here's my big case-y-wall-case thing. I hate walls for the most part, so this makes me a "giant fucking hypocrite" (remember that phrase)

There's several problems I have with Chaos' play so far. Some are more meta-based, but some are more evidence based in this game.

Chaos opens up in 54 voting Wheme, and asking him what he thinks about my pressure on sheep. It strikes me as odd. Why specifically ask Wheme, and why specifically about my pressure on sheep? I get that my pressure on sheep was the big thing happening at the time, but chaos doesn't give his own thoughts on it because, as he replies to me in 59 "I don't think they'd be super helpful." Yet he expects Wheme's thoughts to be super helpful or something?

Also, Chaos mentions he's not about the sheep wagon, but does not state why. It's an attempt to disrail the wagon without having to put in the work of doing so.

In 59, chaos continues

So, frog is town for the push on Sheep. This would lead me to think that you think his reasoning is good/genuine/some other good words. If this is the case, why be suspicious of other people agreeing and why townread Sheep? If this is not the case, why townread frogger?

He pressures Wheme about why wheme is suspicious of people sheeping me on sheep, the townread on sheep, and the townread on me, as if it's some sort of contradiction. But Wheme actually replies in 63

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

That's a fair response, and jives with how he could see both sheep and myself as town, yet suspect others on the sheep wagon.

But here's where chaos gets manipulative. In post 109 Chaos asks me for my take on my own push on Sheep. Chaos has played with me twice before, once in my perfect scum win in BEES, and once in our perfect town win in MAFIACEPTION. So he knows I don't fuck around with my pushes. So I give my take that I'm serious about my push (which Chaos knew from meta, and if he's scum he also knows I'm town making a genuine push).

(I'll have more to say about 109 in a minute, but I want to continue on this line of thought around Wheme)

In 282 Chaos says

I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right.

He confirms he knew that my push was genuine, so this is clearly an attempt to turn this around on either Wheme or myself, which he does later in the same post

So this (wheme's post 63) has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

This is manipulative because if Wheme answers "yes, my read has changed so now I read frog as scum" or if wheme answers "No" then Chaos can come back with "then your original reason for townreading frogger for a weak push on sheep was a lie, because you townread him anyway". Manipulative as hell. It pushes the suspicion elsewhere, while chaos doesn't actually do any work around the sheep wagon himself.

Here's where I come back to chaos' post 109. He answer's Naomi's question to him with a combo of 1 and 3, meaning a combo of "I don't think sheep slipped" and "I don't have strong feelings on sheep." My issue is he's expecting everyone else to have feelings around myself and sheep, yet he can't provide any himself. He just want to create Chaos (pun intended) around the sheep/frog thing, while sidelining what he thinks of me and sheep himself.

There's also the "slip" stuff which Gerry pointed out and I agreed with, and Chaos actively defended against. That was a second,more indirect attempt at derailing the sheep wagon. We disagree about the slip, and this argument won't get us anywhere, but I don't believe this gels with my meta of Chaos using the slip in MAFIACEPTION, even if he says its different. I was town there, and I'm town here, and I still like to push possible slips when I see its possible there was one. For chaos to dismiss it so quickly, given what he did in MAFIACEPTION and how easy it was for other scum to dismiss it so quickly, is just another little point.

The clincher is his post 341 where he accuses Terata of doing the same thing he did around questioning Wheme. Yes, terata did question Wheme, about the exact same thing, and Terata even called Chaos out in 283 for saying Chaos' post where he then pushes back on Wheme now that I've said my push on sheep was real. But the difference is in their tone. It's going to sound really fucking dumb, but the tone of how chaos did it vs. the tone in which Terata did it is miles apart. Here's the difference:

Chaos:

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

Terata:

Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?

Terata asks hers in a way that uses lighter, less accusatory tone for example "when you got to know Frogg's push was genuine" (use of the word genuine), "As you said he's still a townread i would assume no?" (benefit of the doubt), "so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you" (gives Wheme the option of still townreading me for something else, deserve a townread is a much more engaging tone).

Chaos was "So this has been proven wrong" (Wheme was wrong), "does this change your read of frogger at all?" (comapared to terata's does frog still deserve a townread and maybe are there other reasons)

IDK...it's just tone. I don't really remember Chaos taking this tone in BEES or MAFIACEPTION as town, but that's speculation on my part until I re-read.

Finally, he then accuses terata of being either scum or bad town at the end of his post 341 because she did the same thing he did. But I really find it scummy when someone is like "oh you accused me of this and then you did it yourself so you are a hypocrite." NEWSFLASH: town can be hypocrites. Happens all the damn time. And it's a really easy point for scum to latch on to, because they don't have to do any work. Just yell HYPOCRITE at the top of their lungs. As Chaos basically did with

this would make you seem like a giant fucking hypocrite

[Fro99er]

@sheep- Yeah, I don't really care about whatever you're saying. chaos is scum so I'm voting him.

But noted that now sheep has tried to persuade you off chaos.

[Fro99er]

@Fro99er you and I have got to play more.

I agree!

[Fro99er]

Hawk-Lowell and Chaos-Sheep have both shown patterns of following each other a bit more than I'd be comfortable with thus far.

there's definitely something weird going on in those four. But in the case of a lowell/hawk scumpair, this would have to then be a bus.

65- hawk calls lil suspicious because he was "the last one to vote [sheep]" [-, what??]
76- AJ calls out hawk for being chicken [+]
213- AJ calls out hawk again [+, yep]
222- frogger joins hawk-wagon [+]
293- sheep and hawk lead with three votes
315- wheme calls hawk scum for jumping on "weak" sheep wagon [-, why weak?]

Some scums:

fos hawk

The way he talks in 65 and 75 he takes as given that sheep is not scum and the wagon on him was serving some other purpose than to lynch scum. But why? I notice he's not the only one to do this (Naomi does as well), but the fact that he doesn't even consider the leading wagon could be scum (or is even serious) reads like he already knows the answer.

I guess it's possible.

I also have this alternative gamestate where both Chaos and Hawk are scum, but I need to dig into that more.

[Fro99er]

Hawk:

Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?

At the time I was leaning him yespecially. Now yeah pretty much since all his posts till now have been the definition of insanity.

Is LUV still a bigger scumread for you at this point?

After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.

In your short readlist before this, you said frog was town and Sheep was scummy.

Does frog not gain suspicion for being a main contributor to what you called "5 pages of fluff"?

Actually maybe not on the chaos hawk thing. Found this (bolded mine). MORE manipulation by Chaos.

[Fro99er]

Fire moves up my mod ranks for having faster paced games than the norm.

[Fro99er]

Mod ranks:

Varsoon-Marquis-Glork
Fire

Everyone else

[Fro99er]

CO -- thanks for the reply. Lots of good stuff in there I'm trying to parse, because it's left me kind of mixed. If you are town, us working together with AJ, who I think is town, should almost guarantee a town win.

1) Do you think I'm scum? Simple yes/no and why or why not.

2) The dash of WIFOM part I absolutely thought about after I posted my wall. You probably would stay away from me if you are scum. But yeah, WIFOM.

UNVOTE:

[Fro99er]

I can respond to your reply in more detail later. I'm still wrapping my head around some of the things in it.

[Fro99er]

We can engage for a bit, Terata. Why is my 282 addressing Wheme not pro-town, and why is your 311 addressing Wheme pro-town?

i don't look for anti-pro-towns and pro-towns. i look for town and mafia. I think mafia has a different kind of hmm.. way? of trying to show pro-towniness. And 1 way i've seen more than others is the way of talking a lot about old meta/mechanics/contraditions, because it's something they can observe as OBJECTIVELY scummy, and genuinely push on, which they can't do with general reads and subjective reads, when they have TMI. see what im getting at?

You are not actually addressing his question though.

I'd like this answered more directly. What do you think the difference was between your 311 and his 282. I pointed out what I thought.

[Fro99er]

What should I make of Lowell telling me I'm town because when I post I'm always right and my reads being him/hawk scum?

100000% this though.

when I read it and he said AJ is right, I was like, how does he know AJ is right?

Good point on the Lowell part of that though. I didn't think of that second part of it.

pedits all ove rhte place

[Fro99er]

Can I just point out that I merely put an FOS on both EC and naomi and they both immediately flipped their shit on me? I am all powerful. Fear me.

this post is ew

[Fro99er]

Is it? Naomi crafted an entire case to OMGUS my FOS.

So?

EC is clearly panicking.

So?

Explain why those matter. OMGUS and panic can be done by both town and scum.

[Fro99er]

Call this stylistic, but how often do you see non-scum players so sensitive to their image?

I'm a shining example of one of those players, tbh. I use self-meta in basically every game because I very much care about reassuring everyone this is my town image, whether I'm town or scum.

[Fro99er]

It's not your level of participation. I'd be a hypocrite for calling out a lurker just for lurking. The problem with you is that you show up and offer nothing

but an attack on another lurker/quasi-lurker.

It looks like you're avoiding conflict intentionally.

Calling absolute bull on this one. Show me the receipts.

The only person I've "attacked" for filler so far has been Gerroat. I quoted all of WhemeStar's initial posts to prove against their statement that they already explained their vote against Hawk in the first couple of pages—which they really didn't.

Also, the bold text in your quote suggests you see me as a lurker. Care to elaborate on that? Since I've been added as a replacement I've been on top of this game fully.

Now about avoiding conflict, I have two responses to that:

• I'm not. I don't exactly see how calling out two players (Fro99er, Naomi) for their play styles and persisting that a player justifies their vote (WhemeStar) constitutes "avoiding conflict."
  
  
• If I was, what exactly would your point be? Avoiding conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly this early in the game. Right now we're still about deliberation and facilitating discussion. I don't have to be going at people like Fro99er is Cooperative Sheep to advance the game in this stage.

Okay,

now

I'm really leaving for the day. Just had to respond to that one.

Lowell -- this is not panic.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Lowell

[Fro99er]

Well, fine. But I've played a lot of games and only when I'm aligned with scum do I find myself frantically searching the thread for every ill mention of my name. It feels like that's what both naomi and EC are doing here.

Are you saying naomi and EC are beetlejuicing? Or are you criticizing them for defending themselves?

It's pretty natural to defend oneself. Chaos just defended himself against me, and that was one of his only 7 posts at the time he made that post. How is that different from what they did?

[Fro99er]

Having a hard time parsing a lot of the other cases - they mostly seemed to be based on hypocrisy (which I feel has been a cornerstone of every case so far)

did you read my case on Chaos. It had nothing to do with hypocrisy.

[Fro99er]

Basically it's still this, but Frogger looks worse for...well, how he's reacting and being hypocritical,

It's also pretty ironic for you to call out cases for being hypocritical...just saying...

[Fro99er]

Your case, to my mind, is based around an opinion of a given question being scummy vibing and a similar one not being

That's not what my case is about at all. That's just a small part of it. You didn't read, did you?

[Fro99er]

I did read - what do you think is the core element of your case if not the points I've made?

What do I think the core element of my own case is? lol

Manipulation, meta, tone.

I showed his manipulation...it was the main core of my case and the vast majority of that post.

I showed why some of the things he's said/done didn't jive with my meta of him.

I showed why his and terata's posts were different ... tone.

Only a tiny part was him shouting "hypocrisy" around Terata at the end. You really didn't read.

[Fro99er]

I took out the very last paragraph. ONE single paragraph. And I also took out the very first sentence (which was calling myself hypocritical about walls). Please tell me

exactly where

you think the core of my case is about hypocrisy now that I have that one final paragraph removed..

Spoiler: for sheep

There's several problems I have with Chaos' play so far. Some are more meta-based, but some are more evidence based in this game.

Chaos opens up in 54 voting Wheme, and asking him what he thinks about my pressure on sheep. It strikes me as odd. Why specifically ask Wheme, and why specifically about my pressure on sheep? I get that my pressure on sheep was the big thing happening at the time, but chaos doesn't give his own thoughts on it because, as he replies to me in 59 "I don't think they'd be super helpful." Yet he expects Wheme's thoughts to be super helpful or something?

Also, Chaos mentions he's not about the sheep wagon, but does not state why. It's an attempt to disrail the wagon without having to put in the work of doing so.

In 59, chaos continues

So, frog is town for the push on Sheep. This would lead me to think that you think his reasoning is good/genuine/some other good words. If this is the case, why be suspicious of other people agreeing and why townread Sheep? If this is not the case, why townread frogger?

He pressures Wheme about why wheme is suspicious of people sheeping me on sheep, the townread on sheep, and the townread on me, as if it's some sort of contradiction. But Wheme actually replies in 63

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

That's a fair response, and jives with how he could see both sheep and myself as town, yet suspect others on the sheep wagon.

But here's where chaos gets manipulative. In post 109 Chaos asks me for my take on my own push on Sheep. Chaos has played with me twice before, once in my perfect scum win in BEES, and once in our perfect town win in MAFIACEPTION. So he knows I don't fuck around with my pushes. So I give my take that I'm serious about my push (which Chaos knew from meta, and if he's scum he also knows I'm town making a genuine push).

(I'll have more to say about 109 in a minute, but I want to continue on this line of thought around Wheme)

In 282 Chaos says

I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right.

He confirms he knew that my push was genuine, so this is clearly an attempt to turn this around on either Wheme or myself, which he does later in the same post

So this (wheme's post 63) has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

This is manipulative because if Wheme answers "yes, my read has changed so now I read frog as scum" or if wheme answers "No" then Chaos can come back with "then your original reason for townreading frogger for a weak push on sheep was a lie, because you townread him anyway". Manipulative as hell. It pushes the suspicion elsewhere, while chaos doesn't actually do any work around the sheep wagon himself.

Here's where I come back to chaos' post 109. He answer's Naomi's question to him with a combo of 1 and 3, meaning a combo of "I don't think sheep slipped" and "I don't have strong feelings on sheep." My issue is he's expecting everyone else to have feelings around myself and sheep, yet he can't provide any himself. He just want to create Chaos (pun intended) around the sheep/frog thing, while sidelining what he thinks of me and sheep himself.

There's also the "slip" stuff which Gerry pointed out and I agreed with, and Chaos actively defended against. That was a second,more indirect attempt at derailing the sheep wagon. We disagree about the slip, and this argument won't get us anywhere, but I don't believe this gels with my meta of Chaos using the slip in MAFIACEPTION, even if he says its different. I was town there, and I'm town here, and I still like to push possible slips when I see its possible there was one. For chaos to dismiss it so quickly, given what he did in MAFIACEPTION and how easy it was for other scum to dismiss it so quickly, is just another little point.

The clincher is his post 341 where he accuses Terata of doing the same thing he did around questioning Wheme. Yes, terata did question Wheme, about the exact same thing, and Terata even called Chaos out in 283 for saying Chaos' post where he then pushes back on Wheme now that I've said my push on sheep was real. But the difference is in their tone. It's going to sound really fucking dumb, but the tone of how chaos did it vs. the tone in which Terata did it is miles apart. Here's the difference:

Chaos:

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

Terata:

Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?

Terata asks hers in a way that uses lighter, less accusatory tone for example "when you got to know Frogg's push was genuine" (use of the word genuine), "As you said he's still a townread i would assume no?" (benefit of the doubt), "so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you" (gives Wheme the option of still townreading me for something else, deserve a townread is a much more engaging tone).

Chaos was "So this has been proven wrong" (Wheme was wrong), "does this change your read of frogger at all?" (comapared to terata's does frog still deserve a townread and maybe are there other reasons)

IDK...it's just tone. I don't really remember Chaos taking this tone in BEES or MAFIACEPTION as town, but that's speculation on my part until I re-read.

[Fro99er]

I think sheep read the first line of my wall and thought "this case is about hypocrisy"

[Fro99er]

I consider the manipulation to fall within that same vein,

manipulation is the same thing as hypocrisy?

Bullshit. You just don't want to admit you're wrong.

[Fro99er]

I agree Chaos is scum

I don't know.

I'm starting to doubt that based off Chaos' response to my wall. But I want chaos to answer this

CO -- thanks for the reply. Lots of good stuff in there I'm trying to parse, because it's left me kind of mixed. If you are town, us working together with AJ, who I think is town, should almost guarantee a town win.

1) Do you think I'm scum? Simple yes/no and why or why not.

2) The dash of WIFOM part I absolutely thought about after I posted my wall. You probably would stay away from me if you are scum. But yeah, WIFOM.

UNVOTE:

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Wheme

sheeping Terata's case. It's basically what I was about to say wrt Wheme not having any unique reads but painting them as his own thoughts.

I actually think Wheme is my strongest scumread of the game now, and lord knows I've been all over the place.

[Fro99er]

Yo Mitchell.

terata is town.

[Fro99er]

Yah go fro99er you rock!

Why did you say this about my case on sheep, if you thought it was weak?

[Fro99er]

Yo Mitchell.

terata is town.

I think he's made an excellent case against WhemeStar. Are you basing your town read on him entirely on that?

No. I've already gone into great detail on my terata town read. It's in my ISO.

[Fro99er]

Want me to reveal?

Scum excited for his fakeclaim

[Fro99er]

Want me to reveal?

Scum excited for his fakeclaim

either that or appeasing town again. "oh town please just tell me when to reveal"

one or the other. either way saying that sucks.

[Fro99er]

If you think I'm scum I'm more than happy too.

I barfed

[Fro99er]

VOTE: WhemeStar

Wheme, what are your thoughts on Sheep and the quick L-2 wagon on him?

I think their both town, froggy dude pushing him to get reactions out of others. And it worked, which makes me suspect Lil Uzi, Hawk, and Gerryoak.

I'll keep my vote on Uzi.

How come you never tried to push and poke at LUV, Hawk, and Gerry more?

You just were content to be on any one of the three.

You still haven't tried to sort them, just moved over to Lowell. What happened to your read of LUV and Hawk? You've now ruled Gerry null-town, I guess, but not from your own pressure of that spot.

[Fro99er]

pect you to still be on Lil Uzi, considerin

You expect me to be on Lil Uzi, but I don't really care who Im on, because I have suspicion on all 3 of them almost equally. So if the rest of the town thinks its Hawk I'm fine with voting Hawk too. Ill go In more detail in a couple of mins, folding laundry right now.

Except you were still suspecting them on post 330 almost equally, and never did go into more detail.

[Fro99er]

So when are you going to pressure hawk or uzi to try to sort them? Because you are here now yet you have made no attempt to do so...still.

Or are you going to sit on a stale read of them and be content with one or the other.

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

that could very easily be a scum role. OTOH, scum have daychat...why wouldn't they coach Wheme more and tell him not to seem so eager to claim?

[Fro99er]

Wheme why the f did you offer to out your role at like L-3 or L-4?

[Fro99er]

UNVOTE:

that could very easily be a scum role. OTOH, scum have daychat...why wouldn't they coach Wheme more and tell him not to seem so eager to claim?

With the wagon on me they are doing a bad job on coaching me then.

[Fro99er]

Wheme why the f did you offer to out your role at like L-3 or L-4?

This is my first game as a role other than VT. Didn't know if I should or not, didn't think it was a big deal to ask if I should or not

Town odd-night rolestopper should never be eager to claim

[Fro99er]

Wheme why the f did you offer to out your role at like L-3 or L-4?

This is my first game as a role other than VT. Didn't know if I should or not, didn't think it was a big deal to ask if I should or not

Town odd-night rolestopper should never be eager to claim

especially on an odd day.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Wheme

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Wheme

So you unvoted me because I claimed my role, then voted me for claiming my role.

Not at all.

I unvoted you so I could think. Not for claiming your role.

I voted you because after thinking about it, your behavior and claim make no sense as town.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Wheme

So you unvoted me because I claimed my role, then voted me for claiming my role.

In fact, when I unvoted you I even said "could very easily be a scum role"

[Fro99er]

on the other hand

[Fro99er]

bruh... did you really claim that fast lol. I'll actually reread and give my reads in a bit.

rolestopper is usually a maf role i think tho. unless we have like a vig or something..

if it's a vig that's all the more reason for it to be scum, because then it serves as a mafia protective.

If we have a cop, that's also more reason for it to be scum, because then it serves as making a buddy untargetable, like an ascetic.

Town rolestopper makes sense too as a protective to stop scum kills, especially if scum have something like a rolecop/Neapolitan/vanilla cop, because then not only can it stop a kill but it can help stop scum from their investigation.

It's all setup spec. What I don't like is the urgency on an odd day to out himself as an odd-night power role. It makes zero sense as town to want to claim it as far away as like L-3 (he did claim at L-2, but asked about it even sooner).

[Fro99er]

offering to claim early as a protective is objectively bad town play. you want to stop a night kill if you are town, not draw the night kill. ESPECIALLY to have urgency to claim that on an odd day for an odd-night power. It's a bit more understandable if it were day 2 and he couldn't use it going into N2.

I think he'd know that as a town rolestopper.

Ergo, scum is the more likely possibility.

[Fro99er]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

[Fro99er]

Can someone explain the Rolestopper role to me (or link me to a role explanation)

We have a site wiki for a reason. Use it.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Rolestopper

[Fro99er]

or could it be that mafia let me make the factional kill and i got stopped from doing the kill that way?

WHAT?

[Fro99er]

sure

VOTE: EC

[Fro99er]

or could it be that mafia let me make the factional kill and i got stopped from doing the kill that way?

WHAT?

i took me as an example from your perspective. Say im mafia and i made the kill in the night and the rolestopper targetted me, does the kill go through?

Why would I make the assumption you are mafia?

ALSO READ THE ROLE DESCRIPTION ON THE WIKI JESUS CHRIST ITS NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND

[Fro99er]

A rolestopper basically turns the person they target into an ascetic bulletproof for that night.

it doesn't prevent the person they target from using their own powers.

READ

[Fro99er]

Gerry is town

[Fro99er]

I want Fro99er to tell me what about Lowell/Terata's vote switches made him comfortable following that. I know you townread Terata but Lowell looks like a freelancer willing to lynch anyone BUT Wheme at this point.

I have a reason and I've saved it to a draft so that I can reply later.

[Fro99er]

No

[Fro99er]

Well now you ruined it Gerry

[Fro99er]

I want Fro99er to tell me what about Lowell/Terata's vote switches made him comfortable following that. I know you townread Terata but Lowell looks like a freelancer willing to lynch anyone BUT Wheme at this point.

I have a reason and I've saved it to a draft so that I can reply later.

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Penguin Power

are you going to chide Gerry for that while you lurk all game?

[Fro99er]

Yo Penguin just hops on the big wagon every time too

I also have this weird feelikng Penguin wasn't prodded because he was in his scum chat talking.

[Fro99er]

You should probably read the rules.

I did.

You're scum

[Fro99er]

Yes. Because I'm actually taking a stance and providing my thoughts on slots, despite my low activity. He's not.

And is that scum indicative for Gerry?

[Fro99er]

Go look at penguin's iso and his shallow ass reads, and then the way he pressures Gerry for not contributing.

pot meet kettle.

[Fro99er]

I'll actually read later on.

Liar.

_____________________________

Spoiler: Spoilered wall post that I skimmed and liked

"What are all these bolded lines" you ask. Well it's all the things that pinged me in this post.
He seems super apologetic in his wordings which i haven't really seen from his previous play, an example being "im trying my best to help town" (talking about town as a seperate entity). I also had a problem with how he tries to take credit for coming up with certain reads that he clearly sheeped from others in the thread. If he said he sheeped them it would be completely fine, but he talks like he thought them up himself. Specifically the one about Lowell slipping about AJ's reads but also a little about the Sheep read, which was summarized with what problems other's have had with Sheep all game (and this is after he read the posts "over and over").

He made sure to point out someone who had done less pro-town things than he has (gerry) which mafia loves to do when they feel they're getting pressure even though there are towns not showing towniness. And he KEPT saying he's having the same null/townread about Gerry which he had for the same reason as earlier that had been called out by BOTH gerry and frogg, who you're still saying pointed out the initial slip. He just won't back down from his initial statement even though it's clearly wrong, and that's much more scummy than being wrong in the first place in this scenario. Also, why would he even say Gerry's been contributing less than he has if he's still null-townreading gerry? Seems like standard shade to me.

Last but not least i dislike in what form he gives his Naomi read. He says it like "I also think Lowell is wrong on Naomi..." as to shade Lowell (his scumread) for being wrong on a town, which seems like a tmi read to me if i've ever seen one. That read just doesn't come naturally to you to call Lowell wrong in your case on him if you don't know the alignment of the person being read. And disliked how he phrased "id like to vote" at the end. A struggling finish to a scummy post.

This is what a confident vote looks like VOTE: WhemeStar !

(Chaos made me doubt since his comeback)

Sheep fell apart. I can do Wheme.

VOTE: Wheme

Also, most of my reads are sheeps from other people

Want me to reveal?

I'm going to try and vote you again.
VOTE: Wheme
_______________________________

Spoiler: Why I think Gerry is scum

58, 134, 136, and 152

What first pinged me about Gerry before I did my first reread of his ISO was his 58. On the surface it looks like just filler, but if you look and think it about it on a deeper level, he's arguable treating himself as confirmed town that shouldn't be considered for a lynch today by anyone for getting the game out of RVS as well as starting a wagon on Sheep.

Fast forward to a bit to 134, he does the same thing again by discrediting not only Naomi's read on him but also her as a player by bringing up a previous game without any context in which he claims he got two members of the scum team lynched.

136 is self explanatory.

I'm inclined to believe 152 is more scum motivated than town motivated and it only reinforces my read on him. He's hints at a PR of some sort and says he shouldn't be lynched today. There was no pressure on him at the time and the overall focus was on Sheep as well as the various arguments Frog was getting into so it was odd for him to drop that soft like it's hot and just leave. Scum have more to gain by bread crumbing in my opinion. It helps them with fake claiming and it can potential draw doctors and jail keepers to them.

TL:DR: Gerry has been been basically treating himself as confirmed town since RVS ended.

I think Gerry tried to distance from Sheep early and it sort of backfired a bit. I also think he could be just scum that tried to spread and pray on paranoia early and Sheep is town.

If we lynch Gerry today, we'll probably feel a lot better about Sheep's alignment

LUV moves up in my townreads to join Fro99er and Naomi. Congrats on the promotion. Unfortunately there is no pay raise associated.

^^^^THIS POST IS TERRIBLE

[Fro99er]

Wheme has been obvious scum since minute 1 which is why I've opted to just ignore him and look for his partners. If we can lynch his partners first, he'll probably just concede.

this is the worst logic ever

[Fro99er]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday but will try to check in 1x/day. Posted to all games

[Fro99er]

Lowell what are you even talking about? You think chaos has been bussing wheme all day, when I made a huge wall post about how I thought chaos was manipulating wheme.

No.

Just no. I think Chaos and Wheme are either both town, or one is town one is scum. There is ZERO chance both are scum.

[Fro99er]

Sheep -- this frog wants your thoughts on Penguin?

[Fro99er]

Sheep -- this frog wants your thoughts on Penguin?

Forget the hawk for a moment. Just a moment. We have other animals to talk about.

[Fro99er]

You have a valid point that he is a lurker.
I find his defense of the hypocrisy angle leveled against him to make sense (you actually used that as a scumtell when I pointed out a 'you're doing what I'm doing' type defense earlier, so I'm curious why this one sells you so much).
That's about it, right? I was letting it simmer - there's not much to chew there yet as it's functionally one lurker attacking another lurker, and then being attacked for being a lurker himself - the case is a lurker case either way you slice it, so you're either going to wagon on that for more info if ou don't have better reads, or you're going to be annoyed that it's distracting from a wagon you like better, or you're going to let it go and see what happens.

I'm the second two.

It's not just about a guy lurking talking about a lurker.

[Fro99er]

Sheep,

read the first part of 659 up until the first comma and then read 660

[Fro99er]

Frog whats your opinion on Terata and ECM's argument a few pages back?

ECM scumreading terata is bad.

[Fro99er]

It's amazing. Shouldn't more people want to pressure penguin?

[Fro99er]

Chaos/Wheme are not both scum

[Fro99er]

This was the drafted reason you needed to save?

No.

Where the fuck did I say that was my drafted reason?

Don't fucking put words in my mouth.

[Fro99er]

Gerry!

[Fro99er]

ECM get an avatar boi!

Obv coaching

[Fro99er]

@Frogg - replace "lurk" with "shallow reads" and my response will still hold true for the semantics you're attempting to bring up here. It is still the same thing - lurkers never offer deep reads.

No, YOU are turning this into a semantics debate because you are trying to piss me off.

Some of the best players on this site lurk but then offer very deep reads. Lurking and shallow reads are not equivalent and your attempt to equate them is bullshit, and it's just a way to avoid giving an opinion on my posts about Penguin.

VOTE: Sheep

[Fro99er]

If we don't lynch sheep today i'm vigging his ass tonight

[Fro99er]

You can comment on Penguin now.

Or are you just going to give Penguin a pass?

[Fro99er]

Frog why are you town reading Gerry? Im looking over Penguins case and I understand the hypocritical thinking of Lurking but why are we defending Gerry here? I mean Gerry has been pretty much a non factor all game.

Because I have no reason to scumread Gerry.

His lurking isn't a scum indicator for him from what i've seen of him.

And the posts he has made with substance haven't been scummy

[Fro99er]

Gerry feels more null to me than anything else

Did i say he's town?

I just said i have no reason to scumread him

[Fro99er]

Meh, I guess i did.

[Fro99er]

Because Terata is obvtown

[Fro99er]

Yo Gerry sheep me

[Fro99er]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

What was awkward about the way I popped in?

If nothing else you were the last one to vote him. Also why acknowledge Naomi and no one else who hadn't posted yet?

@Wheme of the three of us who did you like least? Do you not link early wagons? I think it's getting nice content from Sheep. And generating discussion.

Lil Uzi, I have no problem with them, but its okay to be suspicious of the people who put them at L-2, wouldn't you be suspicious of someone hammering a wagon? Where's the cutoff point on the wagon. I thought it generated good discussion too, froggy got the reactions from people that he wanted.

See Wheme gets it Uzi. Why'd you take us all the way to L-2??

VOTE: LUV

Where/are you that confident that Sheep is scum??? Don't you think L-2 this early is dangerous? I mean I understand pressure but that was playing with a bit of fire there Uzi.

Also to answer your question I interjected because your vote made me pause and contemplate too. So I wanted to engage you.

Actually, I think AJ is right. Also, this post by hawk is gross. Hawk is ok with voting sheep himself, but then when Uzi does it suddenly it's bad to put someone at L-2?

I don't buy that

VOTE: Hawk

Maybe I'm wrong on sheep. But it's such a trash push on me. I can see why he'd think if I intentionally misrepped why I'd be scum. But I didn't. I don't agree with his leap in logic, and I'm still scumreading him for it. But I guess if he really believes his logic then it's not scum motivated. I just really hate implying, with a question, that someone will be uncooperative in the future for something that arguably wasn't uncooperative at all.

This is not giving hawk a pass

I think I've voted the whole game except AJ Gerry Terata and Naomislot

[Fro99er]

@Frogger - I might as well ask why you're giving Hawk a pass - I specifically commented on Penguin, you disliked how I indicated him and Gerry both seem lurky, and were pissed that I didn't use the words you felt were more appropriate, even when i indicated those words were confluent for me - you then went into your usual blind rage derp and decided somehow a difference of word definition equates to, somehow, scum intent.

All you did was make me feel worse about Wheme for sheeping it, and you, for forcing me to interact with your baby behavior. You're very unpleasent to me - go ahead and push through the lynch, I won't miss this game.

Good.

I won't miss you either

Welcome to the blacklist

[Fro99er]

sheep honestly isnt even that scummy, seems like he ha that early wagon cause of me and then ppl just kept pushing hoping for a lynch

No, he had that early wagon because of both of us


Now fucking do something we have 48 hours and you're sitting there twiddling your fingers

[Fro99er]

If i was actually a vig i would have flashlynched Wheme for that claim.

Rolestopper is almost always scum if there's a vig

[Fro99er]

Uh I read in previous post by froggy that me and chaos both can't be scum, so if one of us town the other is prob scum

WHY WOULD YOU LEAVE OPEN THE OPTION OF CHAOS TOWN AND YOU SCUM

[Fro99er]

Actually I got townvibes on that catch up

[Fro99er]

I'm drunk can we just lynch sheep

I can settle for a Penguin or a Wheme but I don't feel good about any lynches because my reads are shit

[Fro99er]

I am quite dramatic at times, so bare with me.

We will get along

Or fight it out to the death

[Fro99er]

Wheme is L-3 and Sheep is L-5.

Fitz unvoted and is VLA till Sunday so he's probably not getting back before a no lynch. I'm okay with lynching Wheme if Fro99er is shooting sheep. I don't like sheeps play and I'm even more dissappointed he's resigning to defeat here.

Wheme who does you flipping green out as scum???

VOTE: Hawk

I think this post comes from scum

[Fro99er]

I mean.

Hawk doesn't question that i'm the vig (and therefore town) and looks like he's just ok with lynching a claimed PR and shooting sheep. That just reads like he's ok with two people dying and he doesn't even question it.

[Fro99er]

@Mod there's about 4-5 people that need prods

What is wrong with you people. We have just over 24 hours left

There's definitely scum among the prod worthy

[Fro99er]

Penguin Chaos Lowell EXM

Guatant ed scum in there

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Penguin

[Fro99er]

Lol

[Fro99er]

Lololol

[Fro99er]

Honestly if we have a regular cop or a vig, I'd be comfortable with them claiming because it would almost guarantee Wheme is scum.

[Fro99er]

Otherwise I don't really want to lynch Wheme. Because if he's town he can either have the chance to stop a kill tonight, or he will be killed and that of course confirms him town.

[Fro99er]

Sheep.

Olive branch.

Who would you prefer that lynch between Lowell, Penguin, and chaos.

Hawk isn't happening and Wheme isn't happening without a CC

[Fro99er]

How would we find out if you are scum tonight?

[Fro99er]

Obv i guess if there's a cop or vig the CC is just checking or vigging you at night.

Got it

Yeah we're not lynching Wheme today. And I agree with no CC now

[Fro99er]

If sheep isn't happening Im okay with Lowell or Penguin I guess... Wheme is fine too but I'm putting down for the record I don't think that he's scum based off things I know about this setup.

Sheep isn't happening.

[Fro99er]

I kinda think Chaos might still be scum if Wheme is town.

[Fro99er]

Chaos was still pushing for Wheme's lynch even after the claim but with weird reasons about the claim.

And Wheme/Chaos have basically been opposite each other. I made my case on Chaos earlier and a lot of it seemed like him trying to manipulate town into thinking Wheme was a good lynch, and manipulate Wheme into rethinking his read on me.

[Fro99er]

ChaosOmega and Lowell are being prodded.

What about Penguin?

[Fro99er]

How would we find out if you are scum tonight?

If I'm not dead tonight you can probably assume I'm scum could you not?

Not if scum want to leave you as lynchbait.

It's all wifom

[Fro99er]

Omg I just started hating Mitchell for the Vig comment.

Why.

That's the best thing a vig could do

[Fro99er]

So why did you start hating him for it if you don't know what it does?

[Fro99er]

@mod Deadline extension?

Would suck to have to try to lynch someone who can't defend themselves

[Fro99er]

Totally cool if not.

Can't hurt to ask

[Fro99er]

Lol

[Fro99er]

So why did you start hating him for it if you don't know what it does?

Because it makes no sense to advocate a Vig to shoot a possible PR.

YES IT DOES FOR A ROLESTOPPER

A VIG + ROLESTOPPER MEANS THE ROLESTOPPER IS SCUM LIKE 90% OF THE TIME

[Fro99er]

You mean the role that is (a) described by its title (literally

role blocker

) and (b) more universal in mafia games than swing roles like vigilante? How can you be familiar with the latter and not the former?

If you originally meant vig, I'd just call that a slip. If you really did mean role blocker, I'd call

you

stupid.

It's not a role blocker

It's a rolestopper

Different roles

[Fro99er]

You can't expect me to know this logic

Then don't tell me it makes no sense for a vig to shoot the rolestopper

[Fro99er]

Anyway.

That's why we don't lynch Wheme today

And makes me incredibly suspicious of Chaos

[Fro99er]

ECM actually does has an avi

Look harder

[Fro99er]

His avatar.... says avatar?

BINGO

[Fro99er]

Hi acum