Undertale Mafia: Friends & Corpses [GAME OVER]

[Nahdia]

really? you didn't expect it? when i explicitly said as soon as maxous was lynched that it was the case? T_T

[Nahdia]

Okay hold up.

That message? It read "A new faction has been created.
MY FACTION."

Throw every single read you've had this game out the window. The scum faction only just got created.

I'm going to be eternally salty about this.

[Nahdia]

You people laughed at me. LAUGHED.

[JaeReed]

To be fair, I didn't laugh at you, I just thought you must have too much information to be correct as soon as the thread opened ;p Because you obviously didn't have an extended night to think about that and come to that conclusion.4

I'm bad OKAY?

And I did come to the conclusion you were town with Math's flip. I was hoping saying I was scumreading you still would stop you being killed. It was silly of me, sorry :c

[MathBlade]

To be fair, we can complain we can bemoan we can say "how much better we were than everyone else"
We can blame the setup we can blame someone else we can blame our emotions.

The fact of the matter is we lost. And we can choose to be negative about it or choose to be positive about it.

I could berate everyone for not following me onto Maxous immediately when I proved he was a liar and instead ya'll made me drag it out repeatedly. I could say "ya'll sucked for letting the game get that apathetic". I could be very negative.

But mafia is a game of influence and it is about the fun first and foremost. If you aren't having fun then why are you there? If you think you're right why aren't you trying to persuade someone? Mafia is a game of influence which I'm working at getting better towards but ripping each other apart without building each other back up leads to toxicity.

So Skull thank you for a great game. I liked the puzzle. I also appreciate you being ontime with VCAs which is really rare when a game goes as fast as it does.

[Maxous]

Okay hold up.

That message? It read "A new faction has been created.
MY FACTION."

Throw every single read you've had this game out the window. The scum faction only just got created.

I'm going to be eternally salty about this.

well... i spent my whole pre-flip reinforcing that i was independent-aligned and that there was a still a secret scum-team in the game.
that's the entire reason why i claimed third party like i did etc. <== i think some people were asking about this too

[MathBlade]

Yeah I know I was. That's for sure.

I'll just stay happy I caught the only scum in a game that big

/me yay for improving.

[Ankamius]

I caught Maxous' motivations when it happened. I call that a win in my book.

[Skullduggery]

BTW, because this game doesn't meet the definition of Game Mechanics in the wiki (specifically, "The game is comprised of factions, including Mafia, Town, and/or somewhat predictable third parties."), I don't think it qualifies for the longest-games leaderboard. (Chess Mafia was disqualified on the same basis.)

Bullshit.

First of all, this game

did

have a two-person groupscum faction. It was created after Maxous was lynched, remember?

Secondly, that page you linked does not in any way indicate that the factions of a game are required to be of a certain alignment or size. Mafia is a game that pits the uninformed majority against an informed minority that usually has access to a factional kill. That's it. That's as far as the definition goes, and this game meets that definition just fine. This game began with two opposing factions who could not win together: an uninformed Town faction who comprised the majority and a one-person faction who was in the minority and possessed a factional kill. A one-person faction is still a faction.

Yes, this anti-Town faction was of a non-traditional size, but that does not in any way mean that this game doesn't qualify as a Mafia game. Just because something is different, that does not automatically mean it's wrong or invalid. Show me where it says anywhere on the forum or the wiki that a Mafia game is required to have a multi-person groupscum faction in order to qualify as a Mafia game. Show me where it says anywhere on the forum or the wiki that a Mafia game is required to adhere to a specific Town-to-Scum ratio in order to qualify as a Mafia game. Go on, show me. Show me where it says that. Show me where those provisions are specified in a concrete, irrefutable fashion.

For a 22-player game, general opinion would say that a five-person groupscum team is acceptable, yes?
Well, what if I run a 22-player game with a four-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?
What if I run a 22-player game with a three-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?
What if I run a 22-player game with a two-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?
What if I run a 22-player game with a one-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?

At what point does the size of the anti-Town faction in the game go from "acceptable" to "too small"? And no, "I'll know it when I see it" is not a valid answer to this question.

If Maxous had been lynched on day one, would you still be complaining about it?

If this was a five-person micro game pitting just one anti-Town player against four Town players, would you still be complaining about it? If your answer is no, then why is a single-person faction acceptable in a five-person game but not a 22-player game?

Look, I may not have enjoyed this game very much, but I can take solace in the fact that I can still think to myself, "Well, at least I can say that I hosted one of the largest games in the site's history." That's something I can be proud of. Hell, that's something that

we

can be proud of. That's something that all of us earned because we all contributed to the impressive length of this game. And you want to take that honor away from us? Why? Because you didn't like the setup? Shove off.

Your argument that this game doesn't qualify as a Mafia game is complete nonsense. I am willing to fight tooth and nail to keep this game listed on the records page, so if you want to remove it, I hope you're prepared to fight just as hard.

[Skullduggery]

If my questions were annoying I am sorry.

No worries. You weren't annoying. I'm grateful that you put as much effort into the game as you did.

Good game everyone. Thank you Skull!

Thank you for replacing in and playing. Appreciated.

Thanks for modding skull. It was certainly an innovative setup.

Thank you for playing. I think we got off on the wrong foot with the whole audio file thing on Day 1, so I'm sorry about that.

I respect Skullduggery's decision as a moderator because making tough calls like this one are difficult and something you don't want to have to do as a mod. What's done is done though.

Thank you again for being so understanding about the situation. You made the whole thing slightly more tolerable. It's water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned, but if you're upset at me, I understand.

Thanks, Skull.

You're welcome. Thank you for playing.

Thanks for modding this mess of a game Skull! I had a lot of fun for the most part. The setup was extremely creative and I don't think there's ever been anything like it on MS before. Sorry that your last game on MS ended with so many problems ;(
Borderlands Mafia is still my favorite game of all time. I'll miss your games!

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself. Thank you for participating in so many of my games and for being such a cool guy in general, Cakez. I'm going to miss you too.

I couldn't keep up with this game but Skulduggery is a good person and shame on whoever mistreated them.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

THANK YOU SKULL for inviting me. I -for one- have/had absolutely no complaints whatsoever about the setup (i was a bastard game, so anything goes).

The one thing I REALLY feel sorry about is hat YOU (skull) feel bad and decided to quit modding. Since I enjoy thinking outside the box I very much enjoy playing non-standard setups, and when these are combined with favour it's even more enjoyable to me (grated, I didn't know much about the flavour, but that's what Google search is for).

Once again, THANK YOU for yet another great game, and sorry to see you leave. If you EVER decide to come back for even ONE more game, please make sure you contact me to see if I could play.

Thank you very much for replacing in. I'm glad you managed to enjoy this game, and I'm grateful that you've played in so many of my games as well. Your enthusiasm is always appreciated.

I also asked Skull for access to the dead thread once Creeps was lynched and never got an answer

I'm sorry about that. I didn't want to add too many extraneous spectators because I was trying to keep up the charade that Napstablook was really in the game and could view the dead thread while he was still alive. I apologize if you felt like I ignored you. That wasn't my intention.

well skull is leaving the site so *shrugs*

No, no, it's fine. Let the troll have his meaningless victory.

@SKull

- Great game! It was frustrating for me, but not because of the modding. All those townflips were disheartening, but as part of the setup design I totally love it!!
Thanks for letting me play, and if you want to stick around and mod another game, count me as /pre-in.

Thank you for playing. Glad you enjoyed it. You drew one of my favorite roles in the game, so I'm happy that you stuck around as long as you did.

I <3 u Skull

Glad to hear it. Thanks for all the words of encouragement you gave me. I'm sure it didn't always look like it, but it definitely helped.

I enjoyed this game and was kinda sad to be replaced. Followed it up to the end though, reading through the mechanics / roles I really didn't expect that, but still really neat / nice job skull!

Thank you for playing. Sorry I had to replace you, but rules are rules.

[Ankamius]

Oh, before I forget. Skull, I apologize for some of my comments towards you throughout the game. I didn't realize at the time that the type of stuff I was posting was part of the reason you wanted to leave and I only initially made those comments because I strongly feel that you are a fantastic mod. I hope I didn't skew away from that too much and I never wished to contribute to the problem.

Rest later, still haven't eaten all day.

[Skullduggery]

Don't worry about it, Ankamius. You are not part of the problem.

Thank you for playing.

[McMenno]

looks like we gottttttt dunked on!!!

[McMenno]

sorry for tunnelling on narna. and for nothing else really

thanks skullduggery for modding and thanks n-clan for making me an honorary member.

[callforjudgement]

BTW, because this game doesn't meet the definition of Game Mechanics in the wiki (specifically, "The game is comprised of factions, including Mafia, Town, and/or somewhat predictable third parties."), I don't think it qualifies for the longest-games leaderboard. (Chess Mafia was disqualified on the same basis.)

Bullshit.

First of all, this game

did

have a two-person groupscum faction. It was created after Maxous was lynched, remember?

Secondly, that page you linked does not in any way indicate that the factions of a game are required to be of a certain alignment or size. Mafia is a game that pits the uninformed majority against an informed minority that usually has access to a factional kill. That's it. That's as far as the definition goes, and this game meets that definition just fine. This game began with two opposing factions who could not win together: an uninformed Town faction who comprised the majority and a one-person faction who was in the minority and possessed a factional kill. A one-person faction is still a faction.

Yes, this anti-Town faction was of a non-traditional size, but that does not in any way mean that this game doesn't qualify as a Mafia game. Just because something is different, that does not automatically mean it's wrong or invalid. Show me where it says anywhere on the forum or the wiki that a Mafia game is required to have a multi-person groupscum faction in order to qualify as a Mafia game. Show me where it says anywhere on the forum or the wiki that a Mafia game is required to adhere to a specific Town-to-Scum ratio in order to qualify as a Mafia game. Go on, show me. Show me where it says that. Show me where those provisions are specified in a concrete, irrefutable fashion.

For a 22-player game, general opinion would say that a five-person groupscum team is acceptable, yes?
Well, what if I run a 22-player game with a four-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?
What if I run a 22-player game with a three-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?
What if I run a 22-player game with a two-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?
What if I run a 22-player game with a one-person groupscum team? Is that acceptable?

At what point does the size of the anti-Town faction in the game go from "acceptable" to "too small"? And no, "I'll know it when I see it" is not a valid answer to this question.

2 is acceptable. 1 is too small. This consensus isn't on the wiki, but is fairly well established over on Open Setup Discussion (e.g. here).

If Maxous had been lynched on day one, would you still be complaining about it?

Yes, although for a different reason; town would have been punished for finding scum quickly, as a 15:5 where scum get to choose the entire scumteam (possibly after role claims) and eliminate one townie, with the roles evenly distributed between factions as shown here, would have been very hard for town to win,

If this was a five-person micro game pitting just one anti-Town player against four Town players, would you still be complaining about it? If your answer is no, then why is a single-person faction acceptable in a five-person game but not a 22-player game?

Yes, I would be complaining about it. The whole reason setups like Vengeful exist is that 1 is widely acknowledged as being too few scum for a 5p, so methods of fitting in two scum are highly desirable. (Even

4p

games tend to have two scum; our most popular 4p, which has been run nine times, does.)

Look, I may not have enjoyed this game very much, but I can take solace in the fact that I can still think to myself, "Well, at least I can say that I hosted one of the largest games in the site's history." That's something I can be proud of. Hell, that's something that

we

can be proud of. That's something that all of us earned because we all contributed to the impressive length of this game. And you want to take that honor away from us? Why? Because you didn't like the setup? Shove off.

Your argument that this game doesn't qualify as a Mafia game is complete nonsense. I am willing to fight tooth and nail to keep this game listed on the records page, so if you want to remove it, I hope you're prepared to fight just as hard.

I can see a potential argument that you can start counting at #7737. What you have to acknowledge, though, is that nothing the players did before that point mattered! Lynching town wasn't any worse for town than lynching scum (in fact, it may well have been better). The mislynch of Leonshade, and the mislynch of zakk, and the mislynch of Shiro, all

benefited

town more than lynching Maxous would have done. (The mislynch of McMenno probably hurt. In all four cases, though, this was he based on which roles the players were given – which were selected randomly – rather than anything in the way the players played.) Up to that point, the players weren't playing a meaningful game because there was no real correlation between their actions and the result of the game, and no information available to the players that could have allowed them to work out whether their actions were helpful or not. And after that point, everything that happened earlier was entirely useless for scumhunting because all the players were town at that point. At most, it served to give meta on what an all-town game looks like. The only influence that more than half the game had on the result is that it served to confuse the nature of the scumteam, the existence of third parties, and whether or not the posts were relevant (they weren't, but we didn't know they weren't). That's an incredibly small amount of influence on the setup, compared to the huge amount of effort the players initially put into it (before suspecting, correctly as it turns out, that their efforts weren't really doing anything meaningful).

I replaced in after all this, so I got to benefit from a meaningful game; it's not a problem for me personally, and I enjoyed my time in the game. However, I think it's unfair on the other players that you effectively made them spend a lot of time accomplishing nothing; and I think the discontent that happened pre-Maxous-flip, and the resulting replacements, were entirely predictable.

[callforjudgement]

(Incidentally, although a 20:2 ratio is acceptable to be considered as Mafia, I don't think I'd ever recommend it as a reviewer specifically because it tends to lead to apathy when town is doing badly. This isn't quite the same problem as in this setup, which tends to lead to apathy when town's doing well via repeatedly mislynching players who are heavily suspected and don't have valuable roles.)

[Ankamius]

Btw I get really kickass roles every time I join one of your games. That's going to be what I miss the most.

[MathBlade]

Randomly enough my name should just be Bulletproof. I have drawn it sooooo many times now.

Gistou
This
A scum game I replaced into
A town game I replaced into

Like I should just be called Bulletproof

[MathBlade]

Oh and when I wasn't BP I drew scum ninja.

The Gistou curse is real.

[JaeReed]

Randomly enough my name should just be Bulletproof. I have drawn it sooooo many times now.

Gistou
This
A scum game I replaced into
A town game I replaced into

Like I should just be called Bulletproof

Weren't you BP in Shadowrun too? lol

[Nahdia]

Thank you for playing. I think we got off on the wrong foot with the whole audio file thing on Day 1, so I'm sorry about that.

Oh gosh, you don't have to apologize for that. You were so totally RIGHT! And as soon as you explained it I was so embarrassed because I couldn't believe my huge lack of judgement I displayed in posting that. Sorry if I got defensive! And despite all the bellyaching, I'm really glad I got to play in this game, so thank you again for your dedication. It was really well run from start to finish.

[MathBlade]

Randomly enough my name should just be Bulletproof. I have drawn it sooooo many times now.

Gistou
This
A scum game I replaced into
A town game I replaced into

Like I should just be called Bulletproof

Weren't you BP in Shadowrun too? lol

Lol 5 recent games

So many I forgot one.

[McMenno]

Randomly enough my name should just be Bulletproof. I have drawn it sooooo many times now.

Gistou
This
A scum game I replaced into
A town game I replaced into

Like I should just be called Bulletproof

Weren't you BP in Shadowrun too? lol

Lol 5 recent games

So many I forgot one.

good riddance

[Firebringer]

I replaced in after all this, so I got to benefit from a meaningful game; it's not a problem for me personally, and I enjoyed my time in the game. However, I think it's unfair on the other players that you effectively made them spend a lot of time accomplishing nothing; and I think the discontent that happened pre-Maxous-flip, and the resulting replacements, were entirely predictable.

A lot of this.

[MathBlade]

Randomly enough my name should just be Bulletproof. I have drawn it sooooo many times now.

Gistou
This
A scum game I replaced into
A town game I replaced into

Like I should just be called Bulletproof

Weren't you BP in Shadowrun too? lol

Lol 5 recent games

So many I forgot one.

good riddance

??? Did I annoy you?