Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[Heartless]

no baggage.

I am a fucking jack of all trades.

If you think that:
-Town 2x vigilante
-Whatever the rogue crew has (including at least one kill ability as per Klingoncelt's death and their word)
-Jailkeeper
-JOAT (tracker, the Pine guilty power, some third power which fitting the other two would presumably be investigative)
-JOAT (redirector, deflector, rolestop)
...Plus anything else we have unclaimed (in addition to all the VT abilities, which aren't exactly weak!)...
...Is all town?

I don't know what to tell you.

Because no. Just fucking no. That's not a town composition which would ever make it past a competent review team, unless the scumteam's WEAKEST PR was Pine's 2x-Vanillaizer (which is a pretty damn strong role!).

BBMolla's role is a scum role. I guarantee it.

i would be one of the people she wouldn't know what to tell.

assuming all the PR claims are town, i think the setup is WELL within range of balance-able esp if fire went with a scumteam size of 4

[mastina]

like fuck man I really think you're town, mastina maybe not (?), but I really believe you are. can we talk about your worries about me and figure this shit out so we don't need to waste a lynch

I find this genuine btw.

Either scum had to risk a broken situation occurring by holding one of their vanillaize shots, or whenever Pine flipped we'd get 3 vanillaized claims for two shots.

This is a good point actually. What do you think mastin?
Another issue I have with the molla!scum narrative is why pine would risk dying before using all his shots given the day1 wagon thing and him joining the rogue crew.

Plus anti's issue of scum having too much power.

What's there to say on the first?
I disagree. I don't think it's indicative of anything.

As for the second: holding onto a vanillaize shot N1 is smart play, not stupid play, because if scum didn't know what roles were in the game and burned through their shots, then they'd be left defenseless against other PRs if Vanillaizer was in fact their only counter. (But, on the other hand, if they have a JOAT with redirect/deflect/rolestop......) By doing the gambit, they might not be able to use the second shot, that much is true. But they wouldn't have a need for more than one shot.

And Vanillaizer + JOAT with redirect/deflect/rolestop for scum's power is just about right if that's the scum's only power in the game. Goon x 2, JOAT with redirect/deflect/rolestop, and 2x Vanillaizer: two roles which are limited in shots, but serve to shut down select elements of the town's power.

And against that, you've got a lot which needs shutting down! Drunken Piper's JOAT. AJ the Epic's jailkeeper. (JK is one of THE strongest town roles when used properly, especially in the lategame.) The 2x vigilante. The rogue crew abilities which apparently ALSO included a vig shot. (Are you going to suggest scum had no defense against being nightkilled? Because, uh, yeah. THREE likely-controlled-by-town vig shots in a game. Half of the mods on-site will give the scumteam a defense against so much as ONE [not the most competent of mods, mind you, since giving scum a counter to a 1x role isn't ideal but I digress], yet alone, THREE.) And dangerous VT powers. (I mean, I know not all VT powers are going to be threats. But ones like Nacho's are actually pretty damn powerful when timed/used appropriately.)

The 2x Vanillaizer simply isn't enough for all of that, especially if you add in the JOAT with redirect/deflect/rolestop as among them.

So I vehemently disagree with setup spec favoring BBMolla as town. Quite the opposite, it's one of the strongest fucking reasons he's scum.

[Nero Cain]

There's one pr that I doubt but its not Molla.

[Heartless]

And against that, you've got a lot which needs shutting down!

with what we have so far.... not really

if i was a reviewer on this i'd probably say throw in a scum BP and maybe an investigative and that scumteam would be good to go

i mean... if everyone starts claiming james bond super duper power roles, i'll reassess that but i haven't seen anything outrageous so far

[mastina]

if you don't trust my reads beyond zefiend, i can respect that. and i can see how you have a scumread on molla bc frankly his posting sucks. but i have a very hard time bringing myself to think that fire thought molla's role (as a scum role) would be acceptable w/ ari's role AND that rc would let that through, not to mention i think they would have a hard time balancing molla+pine's powers.

Here's the thing though.
Pine's power was two-shot. It wasn't an unlimited Vanillaizer. He could neutralize a grand total of two people in the game.
And the town has some incredible killing power.
The two-shot vigilante PLUS the rogue crew ability (which is most likely something that'd go to town) is no laughing matter. That's potentially three out of four scum nightkilled, and their only defense is vanillaizing the 2x vigilante? After the vig gets to shoot at least once? (I'm assuming vanillaizing a target the same night they use their action does not negate the action.) And presumably being unable to vanillaize the rogue crew vig shot, unless gifted abilities also get taken away?

That's a weak-ass counter to the known town power. There's an incredible amount of shit they'd be up against. Again, how strong do you think the scum are? If you thought the scumteam was stacked, I could see Molla's power as being town. But if you think the 2x Vanillaizer was one of their stronger roles, then that means the town necessarily cannot be too strong. Simply put, the town with Molla in it IS too strong.

The scum with Molla

aren't

too strong. It places them at perfectly the right amount of power. If I saw a scum PR flip, I would reconsider my stance on Molla--I'll give you that much! But if I see a goon flip, it's proving my point.

Aside from that, if this isn't enough?
Fuck PRs. Judge by play. Do you actually think BBMolla's play is

town

?

Because I do not.

[Titus]

And against that, you've got a lot which needs shutting down!

with what we have so far.... not really

if i was a reviewer on this i'd probably say throw in a scum BP and maybe an investigative and that scumteam would be good to go

i mean... if everyone starts claiming james bond super duper power roles, i'll reassess that but i haven't seen anything outrageous so far

We need another scum flip before beginning setup spec. There's expectations. Then there's reality.

So, I guess we wait on zefiend to rearticulate whatever posts Heartless want or we lynch scum Cakez.

[mastina]

So that is a no on lynching SirCake your scumread for 100+ Mastina posts?

Nope! Quite the opposite. It's a "yes if given the right conditions".
The right conditions aren't right now, but could easily be there!

[mastina]

Once Pine used his role there'd be pressure on him and a very big chance that he gets lynched.

Yes, but my point there is: how would the scum know that Pine would use his power?

Your counterpoint?
"Heartless was the rogue leader, and posted a very public list, which scum would know. Therefore, scum knew that Pine would use his power, and therefore, you knew to bus him".

Yet you're refusing to address the very simple chronology problem with that.
Heartless posted the rogue leader list in the 1k mark, thereabouts. You yourself admit this, yes? (Because, well. It's in the fucking thread.) At this point, scum would know that there were no scum in the rogue crew. Sure! That's true enough!

Seems like there's no problem...

...Except I was pushing for Pine's lynch since the 500s.

So again.
You're not addressing my basic point. How the fuck would I know that Pine was going to use his power,

at the time that I started pushing Pine

?
I wouldn't.

You're pushing a narrative which simply could never have actually happened.

To use your own words?

I have a very very hard time seeing someone of your experience and understanding fight tooth and nail against something that is easily proven.

You're fighting against something easily shown.
I'm stating the facts, as they are in the thread.
You're stating a narrative, which relies on assumptions which have been shown to be inaccurate.
The only difference is that I know you're capable of doing this as town and in fact it's the very infuriating thing which lets me know you actually are.

[mastina]

It stopped because mastin didn't follow up.

Actually, you've got that backwards.

I

followed it through.

Pine/Gin

did not.

[mastina]

TOWN-
Heartless
BBmolla
NULL-Nero Cain, TheWayItEnds, SirCakez, Infinity 324
ɀefiend, mastina
Aj the Epic, PeregrineV
Titus
SCUM-

Question.

What places zefiend so high in this list?
For that matter, while I've certainly seen other players give reasons for why Titus is scum, I don't recall any from you. I can understand your AJ/PV reads (even if I disagree), and I know where you're coming from on me, but I don't remember why Titus would be your top scumread, and I also don't understand why zefiend is that high.

[mastina]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: zefiend

Wasn't this an L-1 vote?

Because I'm pretty sure this is scum bussing here.

[Titus]

Mastina, suppose you are wrong on BBMolla, what does your world look like?

[mastina]

Who do you get internet from?

A cable company.
What happens is that anything taking out the power probably also takes out the cable--in fact, it's easier to take out the cable than it is the power.

I'm not sure if the cable requires external power (i.e., power everywhere), or just internal power (that is, my house), but regardless of which, I had neither, and it does require power to work. Phone, TV, Internet, all of them go down when there's no power. Well, some might be more resilient than others, but the most fragile is definitely the internet especially since my household has a ridiculously fucked up complex system in play that I don't really know how to operate.

[mastina]

Zefiend doesn't word vomit as scum from what I have seen. He just lurks away.

Isn't that...you know, exactly what he's doing now?

A wallpost every three days or so does qualify a poster as not lurking.

[Titus]

Titus, I'm willing to talk to you if you're willing to accept you might be wrong on me.

Sure I am willing to accept the possibility I am wrong on you. Right now, you are so "go with the flow" and spammish, it blocks out everyone else. My biggest issue is you are in the way.

Is anyone saying your posts bring new insight? No. Are they doing things to help others develop reads? No. Your posts are useless for the most part.

If you are town, I need you to talk less but say more opinions to engage with.

[mastina]

That's also a good point about Molla scum that I didn't realize

So why the fuck aren't you voting there?

[mastina]

Why haven't you interacted at all with SirCakez? (According to my memory)

I mean.
I could call all his posting scum if you'd like.

But that wouldn't exactly be productive, now, would it?

[Titus]

Zefiend doesn't word vomit as scum from what I have seen. He just lurks away.

Isn't that...you know, exactly what he's doing now?

A wallpost every three days or so does qualify a poster as not lurking.

You know what yesterday was? The cheater's bowl. Most people leave for that. He's due a prod.

How many wall posts did zefiend have in Smackdown? Like zero. Wallposts full of content is likely something Zefiend would struggle with if he can do it at all. It would also give information.

So let's wait for Heartless to get his questions answered and then just have ziefind do a quote wall. Either me or Heartless will be proven right.

[mastina]

Mastina, suppose you are wrong on BBMolla, what does your world look like?

Aside from that world never happening, would have to cross that bridge when I came to it, honestly.

I don't have a backup plan.

I don't have a roadmap in this game.

"If X flips town, Y is scum instead".
I don't have anything like that whatsoever.
I don't have an excess of scumreads.
I have reason to townread all of the players in the game, save three.

I would be left on shaky grounds, yes, if I was proven wrong. I wouldn't exactly know where to go next. I'd have to reassess, wouldn't be able to tell you about it now though because it hasn't happened and I don't think it ever will.

It's not this often I feel so confident on a scumteam.
And there's damn fucking good reason I feel this confident about that scumteam.

[Titus]

Why haven't you interacted at all with SirCakez? (According to my memory)

I mean.
I could call all his posting scum if you'd like.

But that wouldn't exactly be productive, now, would it?

Yes. Yes it would. It gives reassurance to me that you might be possible to get on the same page, rather than talking to a wall.

[Titus]

Mastina, suppose you are wrong on BBMolla, what does your world look like?

Aside from that world never happening, would have to cross that bridge when I came to it, honestly.

I don't have a backup plan.

I don't have a roadmap in this game.

"If X flips town, Y is scum instead".
I don't have anything like that whatsoever.
I don't have an excess of scumreads.
I have reason to townread all of the players in the game, save three.

I would be left on shaky grounds, yes, if I was proven wrong. I wouldn't exactly know where to go next. I'd have to reassess, wouldn't be able to tell you about it now though because it hasn't happened and I don't think it ever will.

It's not this often I feel so confident on a scumteam.
And there's damn fucking good reason I feel this confident about that scumteam.

So, who is your scumteam aside from BBMolla?

[Heartless]

That's potentially three out of four scum nightkilled, and their only defense is vanillaizing the 2x vigilante?

well... yeah

not to mention not being awful and avoid getting scumread. that'd probably go a pretty long way in not getting vigged.

[Heartless]

titus is a pats hater?

you learn something new every day

[mastina]

That's potentially three out of four scum nightkilled, and their only defense is vanillaizing the 2x vigilante?

well... yeah
not to mention not being awful and avoid getting scumread. that'd probably go a pretty long way in not getting vigged.

Still.
You're positing this passed a review with the possibility of:
-One scum lynched D1.
-The scum's nightkill failing thanks to one of two sources (AT MINIMUM--not even including the possibility of scum killing themselves).
-The vig shooting scum.
-Maybe the rogue crew being able to shoot scum, depending on the exact mechanic there.
-A second scum lynched D2 from AT LEAST ONE SOURCE a guilty (with the possibility of that being GAME OVER RIGHT THEN AND THERE if scum shot themselves/the rogue crew could shoot N1).
-The vig shooting the last scum N2.

...And you think that would pass as balanced against just a 2x Vanillaizer?

[Heartless]

Fuck PRs. Judge by play. Do you actually think BBMolla's play is town?

i thought Post 2390 was vaguely town. but other than that, no not really.