Mini 1871 - Town of Whispers - Game Over

[shannon]

OK, getting there with the catch up ...

I think my previous point was misconstrued. HS' accusation is towny

to me

regardless of how Jin flips. I was saying that it is towny precisely because it's a dangerously strong, attention-getting case to make this early as scum.

VOTE: Dunnstral

I agree that HS's accusation is towny, but I don't like the continuation on to 'regardless of how Jin flips'. I can't quite put my finger on it, except to say that it feels icky. Like perhaps Mis is looking for someone to pocket. Also the reference to Jin makes it seem like his lynch (it's Black Void now?) is inevitable, which it shouldn't be so early on D1 IMHO. So yeah, not feeling great about Mis. VOTE: Misere ((Note: I've skimmed the thread once, I may change this on a re-read))

My neighbors don't seem to want to talk to me

yah this
btd has made 0 posts in my neighbourhood
jin has said nothing since the scummy post of death

misere looks p bad, need more though tbh

I made 0 posts in your neighbourhood. That is true. However, there is nothing in your neighbourhood to even comment on. Your only post is basically a "hello" post.

I don't see why people think that someone not using the Neighbourhood much is scummy, especially when there was very little content.

And this time, I'm not a fakeclaiming Cop, sorry, Seer.

To state the obvious, there won't be any content in the neighbourhood if neither of you post...

!!!

New person to talk to in the PT

Yay! I'm already posting in it x

While I disagree with Ser Arthur Dayne saying that Human Sequencer is scummy, I think it would be a rather odd move for scum to vote someone while saying that they wish they could be the same alignment. He also townread my predecessor when he was under pressure. While scum whiteknighting does exist, there's a point where it almost seemed like SAJ was going to get lynched and I thought he stalled the momentum there whereas I think scum would just hang back and watch if not outright push the lynch. I don't understand 67 though because I don't see what there is to like about those posts from SlySly, and I have mild paranoia that he's setting up to go after Human Sequencer after allowing the latter to lead a mislynch but I'm reading him as town on balance.

You make a good point about scum watching or pushing the lynch, rather than stalling it. Two things I wonder -
1) Was the wagon so fast that scum didn't even need to go near it?
2) Are you and Arthur scum together and that's why he derailed the wagon?

[shannon]

shannon were you always awkward like that

Awkward like what? Am I being particularly weird? Sorry it's been a long day I might not be personing the best right now x

[shannon]

No, it's OK, people often say things like that to me in Mafia. Take it as NAI x

[shannon]

TFW Human Sequencer reviews the replacements and you're left of the list, despite posting immediately above his.

[shannon]

In the school play that is Mafia, I am the tree in the background

[shannon]

Well, that's something!

[shannon]

VOTE: Dominator

This is better than Dunnstral right now.
1. He needs to be more active.
2. He has interesting associations with both Dunnstral and BlackVoid.

What are the associations? You can't just throw this out there with nothing

[shannon]

The scum are in Human Sequencer, Dunnstral, or BTD6.

VOTE: Human Sequencer

When you get time could you please attach some reasons to this?

[shannon]

VOTE: Dominator

This is better than Dunnstral right now.
1. He needs to be more active.
2. He has interesting associations with both Dunnstral and BlackVoid.

What are the associations? You can't just throw this out there with nothing

Dominator voted Dunnstral right out of the gate and didn't change or comment on this when I added my vote there, and Dunnstral is openly calling for Dominator's lynch, which lowers the probability of a Dominator-Dunnstral scumteam. (Not rules out, but lowers the probability.)

BlackVoid issued what I consider a very strange analysis of Dominator, granting him a (weak) town read on the strength of a few empty posts, which somewhat raises the probability of a Dominator-Dunnstral scumteam.

Aside from this, based on his last post Dominator is being wilfully opaque, meaning the only good way to sort him is to flip him.

Just to make sure I've got all this straight:

First, you were scum reading Black Void (Jin at the time) and you voted Dunn. Now you're scum reading Dominator and thinking he's tied to Black, and you've abandoned your scum read on Dunn - or at least, you think Dunn and Dom aren't the team. Is that right?

My take on them, FWIW:

I am almost null on Dunn, with a slight town lean just based on POE and the 'vibe' of what he's doing. (Don't ISO him expecting walls, they're not there - read in context). We are neighbours but I'm not getting anything AI from him there; can his other neighbour comment too?

I don't love Black's assessment of the game in 116, especially since I've come out at the bottom of it (I don't get how I get a scum read when my slot was inactive, shouldn't I just be null?) It does seem a bit weird that he makes excuses for Dom, saying he's a newbie. Maybe he's baiting a reaction, maybe he's protecting his team, maybe it's just honest assessment .... I haven't played with him before so I'm not sure. Anyone got an insight? Neighbours??

Dom has completely failed to make an impression on me, except that I think it's suspicious that he is lurking instead of just replacing out. I know there's a reputation for replacements to = scum, so maybe he's worried about that perception. (Maybe he hopes that the Day will pass without him being voted or taking a stand) I can't scum read someone just for lurking, but it is tempting...

[shannon]

Oh, right. That's amazing.

@Dominator get your shit together please. Preferably before LYLO.

[shannon]

The scum are in Human Sequencer, Dunnstral, or BTD6.

VOTE: Human Sequencer

When you get time could you please attach some reasons to this?

Simple. The following is such obvious rvs sarcasm that anyone that took it seriously needs rope.

jin, whose your scumbuddy? is it btd6_maker?

You know it HS, you nailed it. I dont understand how you figured it out so fast.

This should end by N2

!

I have seen similar slips happen, and scum have got away with it. In my first scum game I was the buddy of someone who slipped like this, and *helped* them get away with it. I think HS was quite right to take it further, as were the others who voted it.

So first, I think your target is wrong. Dunn and Arthur and BTD all voted Jin straight off the bat for 'claiming scum'. HS was the one who came in with actual *evidence*, i.e. what he had said in the neighbourhood. If you're going to vote someone over it, vote the person who started it, not the one who gave evidence.

To me, the most interesting thing about what you've done is that you voted HS (my top town read in case it's not clear by this post) who is himself voting and pressuring Mis. Looks kinda like you want to distract us from that?

[shannon]

Still want more votes on Misere.

Shit sorry I thought I was already on him!

VOTE: Misere

[shannon]

Shannon, what is your actual opinion of the Jin affair itself? You say that HS was right to push it and that you "have seen similar slips happen, and scum have got away with it," but does it in fact make you suspect BlackVoid (né Jin)?

I notice a major reason for your suspicion of me is that I spoke as if Jin was the lynch

du jour

early on. I did this because I actually thought that was the case, because I thought HS' evidence was conclusive. I'm sort of surprised that no one else did, but only slightly, since it seems everyone here is so jaded by people crying "slip" and "scumclaim" that they don't notice when one actually happens.

I would have wagoned it if I'd been in the game at that time at that time. I 100% think HS was right to push it. I *don't* think the evidence was conclusive, though, which is why I am scum reading you for being so final about it. I actually said to one of my neighbours that I think you've brought the whole thing up again just to try to discredit HS's push. So I'll put this out there - HS is my top town read and there's no way I'm voting there unless he does something ridiculously bad today.

At this point I'm a bit unsure about Black Void, it seems like he's not around very much. I don't know whether he's just busy or whether he's lurking out to avoid coming under fire again.

[shannon]

Well, I shoulda kept scrolling - looks like BV was just busy.

@Shannon - why didn't you comment on my suspicion and vote on you?

I have a few other thoughts, I'm going to get to them this evening.

It's not like you made a case on me, so I didn't think there was much there to respond to? My predecessor was pretty lurky and I don't think I'd said much when you gave that reads list, so I didn't feel *that* strongly about it.

I don't love Black's assessment of the game in 116, especially since I've come out at the bottom of it (I don't get how I get a scum read when my slot was inactive, shouldn't I just be null?)

Actually you did mention it but it was basically POE and I explained why everyone else seemed townier than your slot. What about the rest of my assessment of the game didn't you like? Do you think I was townreading someone I shouldn't other than TheDominator? Also, what do you think of my point on TheDominator's meta. Same question for Misere.

Well yeah, of course they're townier when my slot has lurked all game. I didn't get why I needed a vote for it, but it's not a huge deal, which is why I only made passing comment on it.

Yes, I think you should 100% be scum reading Mis!!!

[shannon]

I'm townlean on Misere from PT, BTD townlean, Jin/Blackvoid townie, town pings from Dominator for the interaction in his PTs from what people have said.

That leaves shannon dunn slysly HS.

Your reads are so far from mine it's not funny. The only overlap we have a a loose town read on BTD.

[shannon]

The problem I'm having is I have no strong scumreads

I can help. Look here: Human Sequencer, Dunnstral, BTD6

No, that's the town block.

[shannon]

Still want more votes on Misere.

Shit sorry I thought I was already on him!

VOTE: Misere

@Mod

I think I'm right, I voted Misere back in 123, but it got missed on the vote count for whatever reason.

[shannon]

Sorry podoboq, will do in future x

[shannon]

What are you getting from Arthur that I'm not? He's barely said anything in our neighbourhood. He was also one of the ones who talked down the wagon on Jin, which if you think Jin was slightly dodgy, is not a good thing.

Out of your lynch pool, I'd go Dominator, Black Void if I had to, but not Dunn today under any circumstances.

BBS going to read Arthur's ISO.

[shannon]

Regarding Arthur:

He voted Jin for saying the game would end N2. He was on board the Jin wagon in 55 (waiting for an explanation from Jin), but then in 74 Jin had become a town lean and Arthur was voting HS. This looks ... not necessarily like Jin (Black Void) and Arthur are a team, but like Arthur didn't want to be caught agreeing with HS or didn't want to be caught on a 'bad' wagon.

By 77, he's actually defending Jin, and in 82 as well. Unless he has some knowledge the rest of us don't, it just looks ... ugh. Maybe Arthur is looking to buddy up to Jin, I'm not sure. See also: 83, 87.

Then there's 188, which as a reads list is totally ass about as far as I'm concerned.

I don't scum read Arthur, exactly, but to say I'm going to keep a close eye on him is probably accurate.

[shannon]

@HS Yep just a sec, I've got customers

[shannon]

Sorry that took forever, had a late rush!

What I've learned from doing this in detail is that I have probably been a bit harsh on Black Void and Arthur, and possibly a bit liberal in my town read of BTD.

TL;DR: Sly and Mis are my scum reads based on content, I also think it's problematic that Dominator has produced basically no content at all. Something about the vibe I get from Dom is holding me off from making him 'just' null.

***

HS - Strong town read for the initial thing with Jin, and subsequent questioning of the playerlist. I really liked the warning in 17 to not auto-town read your neighbours. Seems to be actively trying to solve the game, can't see anything that looks scum motivated. ((Yes that means I disagree with all of you who think he was yucky to call out Jin))

Dunn - Is my neighbour. First aboard the Jin wagon after Jin's slip, which earns points for me. We agree in a lot of our reads and I can't see myself as the Big Influential Townsperson To Impress By Sheeping so I am taking it that his are genuine and we are on the same side. I can't put my finger on why, exactly, but I just trust him.

BTD - The weakest of my town reads, and partly supported by Dunn town reading him. He doesn't post much but what he does post seems right to me. I would like to see more from him, but overall get town vibes. I can't see anything that screams scum from him, either.

**

Arthur - Is my neighbour. Assessment as per the post above. Yes, he was second on the Jin wagon (after Dunn), but why then go on to derail it and defend Jin so hard? The derailing I can see as OK, if he doesn't think it was a good case then he absolutely should try to take it down. But he defended Jin a bit too hard for my tastes, at a point in the game where there didn't seem to be any reason to really town read him. But, Arthur seems to be sticking with it. He has explained some reads to me in the neighbourhood, which is helpful. I have possibly been uncharitable in my assessment of him. He's null to town *for now*.

Black Void - Is actually townier than I thought ... I would have wagoned Jin for the 'N2' thing early on, and perhaps my judgement of the slot is being clouded by that. His reads starting in 110 are thorough, even if I don't agree with some of them. More participation will clarify this read one way or another, I think.

***

Misere - Avoided the issue of the moment by voting BTD in 28, when it was clear that Jin was gaining steam. Then said he was 'convinced' by HS's points about Jin's posting timeline, and sank the boot in further by saying Jin should know that it's not 6:3. But he didn't vote. And then he acted like the lynch was a foregone conclusion anyway. Just... something is yucky there.

Sly Sly - Reads are pretty much opposite to mine, and he gives basically no reasons for them. Also, lack of participation. The only thing that looks even close to giving a real opinion is 164, and that's not saying much. Screaming SCUM to me.

Dominator - Huge lurking, no content. Not sure whether to say null because there's nothing, or scum because it's lurking. Either way, needs to get his shit together.

***

[shannon]

No, are you buddying me? I can pretend not to town read you if you want?

[shannon]

PS I just got home and realised I left my laptop charger at work. It's a public hol tomorrow so if I don't post much in the next 24-48 or it's shitty phone posting you know why x

[shannon]

Dunn - Is my neighbour. First aboard the Jin wagon after Jin's slip, which earns points for me.

Dunnstral, is the slip why you voted Jin?

That's a fair question; I'm reading it in retrospect and he might have a different motivation at the time.

[shannon]

Do you really believe Dominator is viable for a lynch right now?

Yes. If nothing else he's the most viable choice in my lynch pool, given that the earlier JinVoid wagon has evaporated.

If you don't believe with BTD's logic, what logic have you used? In your iso you pointed out useless association talk and pretty much used the same logic BTD did.

I don't like BTD's undermining his own point by saying that Dominator's unhelpfulness is typical for him, while also saying it's scummy. If he had said it was anti-town and proposed a utility lynch, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If he had said it was scummy without also saying it was his typical behavior, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I think a player as deliberately useless as Dominator has been has an above-default probability of being scum and, even if he is town, is about the most harmless mislynch we could make.

Fingers crossed we get a replacement and can sort that slot out properly.

[shannon]

I was voting him before hs came out with the "slip" that nobody seems to care about anymore

Does it still bother you, or do you think the wagoning of Jin was misplaced/mistaken/a good idea but showed he was town? What do you think of BV now?

@Black Void -- Do you have any other scum reads? Has anything changed since the list you gave when you replaced in?

[shannon]

Alrighty then. VOTE: Dominator

Let's give the replacement a bit of impetus to catch up quickly.

[shannon]

Like a lot of what she says is logical and coherent and it looks like it's an attempt to sort people,

but that's the thing, it just looks so fakeable and unnatural I don't know how to describe it besides saying gut vibe.

If you'd post a bit more in the neighbourhood it might help me to sort you...

[shannon]

It just fits too perfectly like you have a few townreads a few null reads a few scumreads, you probe here and there a bit with questions, but I don't get the feeling you ~passionately~ believe in what you're saying.

I am not sure how to respond to criticism that doesn't really seem to be criticising anything? Would you prefer that I town read almost everyone like your friend Black Void? Or that I don't contribute at all, like a few others are doing? If I am not seeming passionate it's because I am trying not to get bogged down in a tunnel. If you checked our PT you'd see that I'm worried about that with Mis right now, as his last posts are looking townier and I think I might have misjudged there.

Which brings me to another point: If you think I am scummy you should 100% be engaging with me in the neighbourhood to try to get me to make a slip or to give you information that shows how scum is thinking. The way you are lurking around, not saying much, actually makes me think that you're trying to hide something from *me*. Everyone should be trying to get as much as they can from their neighbours. We can compare notes here in the thread, and in future days it might actually be helpful.

[shannon]

@Sly Why???

[shannon]

Dominator - Huge lurking, no content. Not sure whether to say null because there's nothing, or scum because it's lurking. Either way, needs to get his shit together.

See like this read is what I'm talking about specifically in your play.

You have organized your reads in a way where this is in your scumpile, but the justification just feels off, it doesn't look like you believe it. He's potentially scum because he's lurking? Why can't town lurk because of disinterest/rl/etc? You're not making the case he's ~actively~ lurking. That's scummy. But just lurking by itself is not scummy. It looks like you have him here in this pile to justify the fact you're trying to solve the game by having ~scumreads~ and then can easily manipulate yourself in a way where it's easy to get on his wagon.

Apologies, I probably should have put more detail in that than I did.

I can't have Dom in my town pile because there's nothing to suggest he's town. Town can totally lurk, but I am attuned to the possibility that town is tearing itself apart and scum Dom is sitting back and watching. I have seen this recently so it's at the forefront of my mind. I think it's possible to be town and still post only a little bit, but in order for me to read Dom as such I'd need to see evidence of him trying to help town find scum, or at least, trying to help us see him as town. But I'm not seeing any of that, at this point.

I am also trying not to tunnel, hence leaving it open between 'null' and 'scum'. Dom is being replaced, which is good. If the replacement looks town, I'll reassess. (See also: Jin + Black Void. I would've wagoned Jin, Black Void looks town enough not to get my vote). If NewDom moves up the reads list, that pushes someone else down it and they'll become my new focus.

And yes, I am deliberately trying to keep my 'scum' pile within a reasonable approximation of how many scum there are in the game. I have recently learned that having too many people in my scum pool leaves me open to being manipulated in the wrong direction. If I keep focus on the very scummiest, and someone tries to distract me from one of them, it's much easier for me to tell that's what's happening - vs if I have four people in my pool, and four people attempting to get me to focus elsewhere.

[shannon]

Your Dunn and Sly reads are also off (for reference btw I'm talking about post 210). I have to meta you at one point to see if maybe posting in a contrived way is a playstyle and not a product of you being scum here.

Fwiw I like your HS and blackvoid reads in that post, at least they read decently genuine.

Can you tell me what's off about my reads on Dunn and Sly? I know we might arrive at reads in different ways, but I'm like 80% sure I'm at least right about Dunn being town.

I am often picked up for being contrived, looking unnatural, being weird, being kooky, etc. I think it's a product of me not having all the 'scripts' for conversation in mafia yet. I think there's maybe only one or two games where no one has said anything like that to me. And those are games where I spent forever on posts - like, an hour for something this size - to make them seem effortless and natural.

To save you some reading, I only have two scum games so far. Both I won; one I was super town and super friendly in, the other I was definitely weird in but somehow won. I think my weirdness is NAI, like my relatively high activity level is.

[shannon]

Because HS is scum.

*sigh* Why do you think so. Don't just say 'because he's scummy'. Real reasons please.

nn30 replaces TheDominator37.

Yay, welcome!

Arthur, are you feeling the 'eh' too?
I'm feeling the 'eh' a little.

I am.

If we're thinking of the same thing.

Someone clue the rest of us in?

[shannon]

VOTE: Sly stop being evasive and play the bloody game

[shannon]

I've caught up.

First a thing about my predecessor - that's actually just his play style. If anyone is interested, I played a game with him (we were both town) and he played similarly anti-town. The game ended in LyLo with his lynch because his play was so anti-town - scum won.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=68802

Second - VOTE: Misere

This is l-1

Their 168 list reeks of faking content as does the attempt at naming scum teams in 153. I really like the observation in 167 but there's no attempt at follow-up made.

I don't like how 168 and 202 contradict one another. In 168 he says he wants to town read Black Void while in 202 has him, presumably, in the null pile.

I don't like how he continually circles back to discussing the RVS Jin wagon: 178,215, 216 and 223. Jin was run up druing RVS - continuing to try and make this the focus of our discussion is getting old. Feels like fake content.

Are you super bad at counting, or do you have a power that makes your vote count for more than it should?

[shannon]

Alright, looks like we're looking at early D1 again.

Black Void: Are you scum? If no, do you feel like anyone is trying to buddy you or get on your good side re: this whole D1 fiasco?

BTD: Are you Jin/Black Void's scum buddy? Are you *anyone's* scum buddy? What's your read on the Black Void slot right now?

HS: Do you, in retrospect, still see Jin's post as a slip? At the time when you changed your mind, what persuaded you to drop the case?

Arthur: What made you vote Jin and then unvote him? Why go to as much effort as you did to get HS to change his mind?

Dunn: What's your current read on Black Void, HS, and Arthur?

@All those people - What do you think of Sly right now? Is he scummily trying to smear HS's reputation, townily trying to sort shit out for real, or something else?

[shannon]

I went over this with BlackVoid in the PT. Paraphrased:
'You're obvtown.
If Jin wasn't acting in post 3, I agree that Jin townslipped.'

I am not sure how far to trust your judgment on this. Are you equally as sure BV is town, as you were that Jin was scum?

[shannon]

Are you super bad at counting, or do you have a power that makes your vote count for more than it should?

Lol whoops.

It's the counting thing.

Here's how I see it: Your slot already looked bad for lurking, and a few people were scum reading it quite openly. You've replaced in, and voted (you thought) someone else to L-1, without much of an explanation. That looks pretty bad...

[shannon]

I agree that Mis is no longer today's lynch.
NN30 does seem more helpful, but that's not saying much. It's a pretty low bar, plus, his entrance looked shady with the immediate vote to what he thought was L-1.
I am not voting HS today.

I am happy with my vote where it is and won't consider moving until everyone has weighed in.

[shannon]

*waits patiently for the Americans to wake up and comment*

[shannon]

*waits patiently for the Americans to wake up and comment*

it's 1 am but ok

OK sorry I thought afternoon for me was sleepy time for you guys

[shannon]

By my calcs on Dunn's post it should be about 0600 for at least some of you. So, hi, and bye. It's bed time here. I'll be on again in the morning to see what's happening, if you haven't lynched someone by then. Vote 1, Sly.

[shannon]

So this is it now?

Sly: Shannon, Dunn
Dunn: Sly, Arthur
Mis: HS, NN

We have 25 hours left...

[shannon]

It's HS, Dunn, or BTD6 for me. Pick a compromise. I saw the L-1 count bs, too. Not near as bad as that case against Jin.

Don't let Sly determine the conversation or today's choice.

[shannon]

I think this wagon forming on me is pretty insane. Town needs to gather up their votes where I've been pushing the past week instead of trying to start a counterwagon on me in the last 24 hours

No near-deadline new wagons building are my favorite. It leaves scum unable to react quickly enough or be able to manipulate votes elsewhere or slim their way out

.

And this reaction looks like flailing tbh. "But no one was pushing me the whole day, why are people pushing me now??? Why is there a wagon forming on me???"

He says, after moving off of Sly...

[shannon]

@SAD Why are you on Dunn?

From looking at your ISO, I can't see a reason. You got a POE on him in 188. In 289 you say "Dunn I can def go he's prob my most pref lynch today if we can do the wagon." - - but you've said nothing on him in between, except that my read on him is off.

In that context, all this stuff looks pretty bad -

Vote: Secret Agent Jin

I love me some wagons

.

I won't be here for the large majority of tomorrow btw. I'll be back home ~3hrs from right now tomorrow, which leaves only 1-2 hrs before deadline.

I wanna put my vote on a likely wagon today before going to bed.

I really don't want to support nn30 wagon at all, he seems to be contributing well. Shannon too, I think I can get a better read on her later in the game. I can see the points blackvoid makes about Misere, so I guess if a Dunn wagon won't take off that would be the best wagon. And I really don't understand where the HS townreads are coming from, she feels so off this game.

Pedit: Okay Dunn is fine, let's see if a wagon can build on him.

Vote: Dunn

I think this wagon forming on me is pretty insane. Town needs to gather up their votes where I've been pushing the past week instead of trying to start a counterwagon on me in the last 24 hours

No near-deadline new wagons building are my favorite. It leaves scum unable to react quickly enough or be able to manipulate votes elsewhere or slim their way out.

And this reaction looks like flailing tbh. "But no one was pushing me the whole day, why are people pushing me now??? Why is there a wagon forming on me???

"

I think it's genuine for Dunn to be asking you why you're pushing him. You've barely mentioned him all game. If you've got something on him, please share it now. Here's a vote to make sure you do.

VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

[shannon]

To be clear - It doesn't even matter that I town read Dunn. It matters that Arthur hasn't given a proper justification for voting him.

[shannon]

13 hours left, where is everyone?

[shannon]

OK, how do you read Dominator/NN? Neither ISO is huge so I"m going to let you click through and read for yourself.

I'll be back with some quotes for you to look at, two secs

[shannon]

'This should end by N2'
implies knowledge that there is 2 scum
we all know there is 2 scum, that's how the setup works, it's in the opening post.

jin in our neighbourhood (paraphrased to dodge the nightkill):
>do you think there is 2 or 3 scum (going for the derpclear)
>i think 3 mafia would be overpowered, i do
>who do you think would be a strong mafia team?

does anybody else spot the contradiction

I'm convinced, provided the timestamps check out. Did Jin say "this should end by N2" before asking those questions in the neighborhood?

no, it's 20 mins apart the other way around.

the way you phrased that makes me feel like you knew that.

speaking of which, how did you know that jin and btd where lurking in our neighbourhoods?

How do you feel about this interaction in retrospect, HS? Most importantly, are you still committed to your vote on the Mis wagon?

[shannon]

@HS I'm re-reading and asking questions as I get to things, sorry for the delay.

This one is for @BV, next one is for HS, but HS feel free to answer this too if you want to give your perspective -

I think you are right BV, that Arthur stalled momentum on the Jin lynch. My suspicion is that he did it for town cred, but now it's EOD and he's happy to 'hang back and watch if not outright push' the Dunn wagon. Do you see it this way, or do you think his intentions are genuine? See also, my post on previous page, questioning exactly *how* he has come to scum read Dunn and *why* he hasn't posted any reasons in the thread before now.

While I disagree with Ser Arthur Dayne saying that Human Sequencer is scummy, I think it would be a rather odd move for scum to vote someone while saying that they wish they could be the same alignment. He also townread my predecessor when he was under pressure. While scum whiteknighting does exist, there's a point where it almost seemed like SAJ was going to get lynched and I thought he stalled the momentum there whereas I think scum would just hang back and watch if not outright push the lynch. I don't understand 67 though because I don't see what there is to like about those posts from SlySly, and I have mild paranoia that he's setting up to go after Human Sequencer after allowing the latter to lead a mislynch but I'm reading him as town on balance.

@HS do you have an actual read on me now, or am I still a tree in the background of a school play?

i didn't review the replacements, i haven't even bothered to read your posts tbh

usually i just read things and whoever is lucky to get an initial ping either way (town/scum) becomes a focused slot to me and all the other ones just fade away

In the school play that is Mafia, I am the tree in the background

i like you

[shannon]

Sorry this is taking forever, up to page 8 and got distracted by VCA.

Tell me if I'm having tunnel vision here, but the only times Sly isn't voting with Arthur is when it would be a Jin lynch, and when Arthur votes Sly. #conspiracy

Official Vote Count 1.02

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Secret Agent Jin

(4): Dunnstral, Ser Arthur Dayne, BTD6_Maker, Human Sequencer

Not Voting

(5): SlySly, Secret Agent Jin, TheDominator37, beeboy, Misère

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-01-30 21:20:00)

Official Vote Count 1.08

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Misère

(2): Dunnstral, Human Sequencer

Human Sequencer

(2): Ser Arthur Dayne, SlySly

TheDominator37

(2): Misère, BTD6_Maker

Dunnstral

(1): TheDominator37

shannon

(1): BlackVoid

Not Voting

(1): shannon

V/LA

: BTD6_Maker

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-01-30 21:20:00)

Official Vote Count 1.14

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Misère

(3): Human Sequencer, nn30, BlackVoid

nn30

(2): Misère, BTD6_Maker

Dunnstral

(2): SlySly, Ser Arthur Dayne

SlySly

(1): Dunnstral

Ser Arthur Dayne

(1): shannon

Not Voting

(0): nobody

V/LA

: BTD6_Maker

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-01-30 21:20:00)

[shannon]

I'm interested because you've been quiet on the matter. Everyone else, I feel like I know where I stand. More importantly, I want everyone to give as much perspective as they can on as many people as they can so we have more to work with tomorrow.

I'm glad you see my effort as 'easily sortable', it's what I'm going for. I want a big flashing sign on my head that says I'M SUPER TOWN. Plus, if I do live to see another day, people can see town me from a re-read and then we've got better concentration on who scum are. I tried out a (bad) strategy for a few games where I tried not to obv town, in order to get scum to leave me alive so I could catch them... turns out my skills are not often in scum catching and I am more useful as the unlynchable townie. I think I've been lynched twice now, once in 3P lylo where someone voted waaay too early, and the other time in a newbie game with Titus where things just went pear shaped and all the newbies spazzed out about her IC style.

[shannon]

I have nothing on sly or arthur. Help me make things.
I'm sorry I'm relying on you so much I'm just really bad at mafia.

Uh why does this feel really fake?

[shannon]

I have nothing on sly or arthur. Help me make things.
I'm sorry I'm relying on you so much I'm just really bad at mafia.

I'm going to indulge you anyway because I think one of these two has to go.

BV has pointed out that Arthur was the one who derailed the Jin wagon, and turned it in to a scum read on you HS. This in retrospect seems like a way to get a good buddy out of the Jin/BV slot. More to the point, the only time Sly really engages with the game is when he's making points against HS that are also supportive of Jin, like way back in 69. (Note that Arthur gives Sly some town points in the post quoted).

Sly has voted HS most of the game, with extremely limited reasoning. He says Jin's post was "such obvious rvs sarcasm that anyone that took it seriously needs rope" and has relied on that the whole game. A hundred posts went by and he had almost no content other than HS vote memes. He's basically been tunneling, but hedging his bets by saying HS, Dunn, or BTD.

Now we're near the end of day and it's clear Sly's getting nowhere with HS, so he moves to Dunn. (I guess voting BTD who's VLA would be a bad look). Trouble is he's never even bothered to make a case on Dunn. There's not even a question asked of him in the whole of Sly's ISO. Nada. It's all just rubbish like 'HS votes will make this game great again!'.

As linked above, Arthur and Sly have voted together all game, with the exception of a wee bit of distancing where Arthur voted for Sly. But lo and behold, the next move after voting Sly is for Arthur to vote *with* sly on Dunn. It's not often that you can legitimately go from voting *for* someone to voting *with* them, and certainly Arthur needed to give more justification than he did for following Sly. It really bothers me that Arthur attempts a last minute wagon when he's expressed nothing but an early POE scum read on Dunn. He's not voted Dunn beforehand or even really asked Dunn any questions, nor tried to convince others of Dunn's scumminess. No one thinks to look for two scum at the start of a wagon, but I think this is what we've got tonight.

Please everyone, decide on one of these two. Sly or Arthur. There's too much going on here for this to be a coincidence.

[shannon]

Do you want me to answer or?

Sorry I just got a bit of a vibe. Which I am not going to let distract me. It's gotta be Sly or Arthur.

PEdit: Sly has done basically nothing all game, except sit on you and post rubbish calls to action. There's been no case except that you took Jin's post too seriously. He has, from very early on, narrowed his field to you, BTD (who is VLA), and Dunn. Clearly, he's decided to go for Dunn now, without warning and without even trying to question him or make a proper case. (Or even an improper case! There's no case! Why is Arthur following him?)

I'm very happy to go back to Sly if we can lynch him today. I disagree with you about Arthur's innocence but I've got Sly pegged as well and I'm happy to see him gone.

And yep, apathy is not a 'thing' for me. If I didn't care I wouldn't be playing.

[shannon]

VOTE: Sly three more needed..

[shannon]

Come vote for Sly? I've gotta go make some ZzzzZZzz so this is my last ditch appeal to get people on board. I doubt many of you will be awake when I get up in the AM.

Dunn, where are you? You should be voting this mofo for his shady non-reason-giving voting practices. His vote on you came from nowhere. Not cool.
Same with BTD, you were included in the group of three potential scum that Sly has held on to all game, with no reason given. If he gets away with it today it's going to continue tomorrow.
BV, I don't know where you're at with Sly, but surely you can see that at the very least this is not someone who is going to help town with his narrow mindedness and lack of sharing and questioning?
Arthur, probably not much I can say to you but if you want to get on and bus your mate go ahead, you're welcome.
Mis, this is the counter to the wagon on you. I scum read you early but you turned it around. Get on board with this lynch of Scummy Sly and save your own ass too. Win/win

[shannon]

Um hi everyone it's two hours to lynch, what have you all been doing?

[shannon]

Me either TBH, but I prefer it to no lynch.
Can I not convince anyone to come to Sly???

[shannon]

All I'm saying is that Sly is a better one and I don't want to miss the chance to get him, if there's a chance.

[shannon]

Grrr I just checked the player online list and it looks like no one is on. Feel like no one is taking this EOD seriously.

[shannon]

SAD just to confirm, are you willing to vote Sly at all?

[shannon]

Is that a no?

[shannon]

@BV are you willing to move *at all*?

[shannon]

BV are you still here?

[shannon]

SAD just to confirm, are you willing to vote Sly at all?

Feels like an icky deadline lynch pushed by scum-Dunn.

It's an "omgggg I know I'll almost surely be lynching town ducking he'll I guess I'm willing to hammer last minute".

Umm it's me who's on Sly, not Dunn. He's on you, and now I am too. Thanks for helping me sort the pair of you.

VOTE: Arthur Dayne

[shannon]

@Mis can you give me the TL;DR of the NN wagon?

@Dunn sorry I am trying to work out who is the most lynchable of the two of them,in practical terms.

[shannon]

If only there was a possibility of a shannon wagon for her awful jump on me there...

Uh you're the one who says he's willing to deadline vote someone he thinks is almost certainly town?

(And sorry, I didn't realise Dunn had changed his vote - I'm not ignoring you)

Fucking both Misere and Sly feel town fuck me.

Covering your ass a bit in case you get the blame?

[shannon]

You know you're just OMGUSing, right?

[shannon]

@Dunn what do you want to do here? Vote Mis or keep pushing where there's no traction?

[shannon]

I've got to start getting ready for work, back soon.

[shannon]

Apologies for getting worked up, I think I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. (Probably didn't help that I was woken by a giant labrador jumping on me).

[shannon]

Me too.

@NN are you willing to move to SAD, or Sly, today?

[shannon]

Sorry that last one was @406

@407 I think Mis is probably the only go, unless someone has a big change of heart. BV has dropped in to basically tell us to vote Mis and then disappeared, so I'm not holding out hope there. Arthur is... Arthur. Waiting to see what NN says but of course he's not going to go to the second wagon, which is him.

Pedit: I'm opposed to the Dunn lynch because I think he's town! The way he's interacted with me in the 'hood makes me think so. Do you think I'm stuck in whatever the opposite of a tunnel is?

[shannon]

It doesn't feel that way.

[shannon]

This whole EOD feels really yucky. Sorry for the part I've played in making it so.

VOTE: Misere

L-1

You guys do what you're gonna do. I've gotta go to work

[shannon]

Bloody hell

Intent to hammer NN30

[shannon]

8:58AM here, scraped in to work on time

[shannon]

Am I hammering or are we going someone else?

I didn't like NN's entrance and his predecessor was pretty ordinary, so I feel *ok* about this - not good, but OK.

[shannon]

Sorry you're right, Mis voted Dunn.

VOTE: NN30

L-1

PEdit: I really don't want to lynch Dunn. I'm his neighbour, just take my word for it OK?

[shannon]

Dunn what are you seeing? Tell me in neighbourhood if you don't want to do it here

[shannon]

HS are you here???

[shannon]

Shannon we're back as neighbors

Yaaaaay!

[shannon]

I am going to do a big re-read tonight. Towards the end of the Day my opinions started shifting a little bit, and I need to see whether that still stacks up today.

Also I think I got a bit heated at the end of the day so apologies if I upset people.

[shannon]

Currently re-reading by ISO:

Sly

early on you said scum was in Dunn, HS, or BTD, because anyone who took Jin seriously needs rope. How do you feel about that in retrospect? Obviously you were wrong about BTD, but what's your vibe on Dunn and HS now? You basically tunnelled HS all D1, have you had any change of mind about him? Or still the same?

BV

I feel like a dick for saying it like this but please be more careful about what you post. In 115 you talked about BTD soft claiming cop and how he thought scum might not notice, which in retrospect might have drawn their attention to the claim Also, it's worth noting that both people you thought would be D2 'sortable' are now dead. What's your take on that?

I have noticed that

Dunn

doesn't make long posts. He's almost always one or two sentences, and replying to someone else or making naked votes. Read in ISO I get only 'null' vibes, but in context it feels towny. Also, the question you ask about who would kill BTD - see above comment on BV. Dunn I would like your thoughts on how the D1 lynch played out, since you were active for the last part of it. How do you feel about Arthur's push on you and then going to NN *with* you? Do you believe Mis's VT claim?

Reading him again in ISO I think I might have previously misunderstood

Arthur's

position during the Jin thing. I can also see that he has been consistently on some kind of HS/Dunn combo pretty much all game. I am interested in hearing his thoughts about that now that we've got away from all the intense stuff that was happening end of D1. Also, I'd like to know how you read Dunn, since the two of you ended up on the same wagon. Also how you now read HS; any changes there? Finally, do you now believe Mis's VT claim?

HS

can you explain to me why your 334 seems so out of place? You look to have been playing perfectly fine mafia, and then you claim to be 'really bad'. I can't tell whether you were having a subtle dig at me (ha, as if I would take her advice), whether it was genuine, or whether something else is going on? You also seemed to get really academic and abstract there for a bit, when you said that I had a better case on Sly than on Arthur. It felt like you were grading a paper instead of engaging with the game, if that makes sense? I don't know what I'm asking here, probably I'm just saying that it seemed out of character given your early D1 play around Jin, which felt emotional. Can you explain it? Also, what do you make of the BTD kill?

In ISO I have noticed that

Mis

thinks abstractly and makes interesting connections. For instance, 44, 358. I am interested in what connections you can see in the interactions at the end of D1, with all the to-and-fro and negotiating wagons. How do you feel about the people who were on your wagon? Why do you think your wagon failed, even though you just made a VT claim?

I think this is three posts in a row from me so I'll be back once there are some others on x

[shannon]

Thanks for the spoilered stuff.

Just letting you all know I have to set up, and then attend, and then pack down, a wedding over the next few days, so I might not get to play very much. I don't think I need to VLA but if I'm not here that's why.

[shannon]

BV

I feel like a dick for saying it like this but please be more careful about what you post. In 115 you talked about BTD soft claiming cop and how he thought scum might not notice, which in retrospect might have drawn their attention to the claim Also, it's worth noting that both people you thought would be D2 'sortable' are now dead. What's your take on that?

This is a good catch. Do you find it suspicious? Because I find it suspicious.

VOTE: BlackVoid

I'll answer your questions to me separately.

Just to be clear, your argument is that I'm scum that spotted a crumb and instead of quietly killing that player during the night, brought it out in the open and THEN killed him?

@Mis - When it was first posted I thought it was a stretch for BV to see BTD's post as a soft claim. I don't think it's suss, really. Like BV said, I don't think scum would highlight a crumb and then kill the crumber.

[shannon]

Lazy-postingz as I've been busier than I anticipated.

I'll just assume my reasoning was.bad since everyone else thinks it was.

UNVOTE: BlackVoid

Hell if I have any other ideas, though.

I don't think everyone has commented yet. If *you* think it's right, you should keep pushing no matter what other people think.

[shannon]

Spoiler:

don't trust my judgement, i'm horrible at mafia tbh

if jin really did just fuck up and it wasn't a scumslip, it's actually a townslip, and with how towny blackvoid is, i'm more willing to lean on the latter.

Preface: I'm not very smart.
Preface: My opinion isn't important.
Preface: I'm horrible at mafia and setup spec is new to me.

@Human, Why did you vote nn30 originally?

How did you go from scum reading my slot this whole game to... forgetting that it existed as soon I subbed in?

I had an outdated and stupid scumread on the slot because I was still playing in my old style of 'Be really bad at mafia'. I didn't really pay much attention to the game, noticed the wagon had switched and changed my vote appropriately.

I'm calm, just bad at mafia.

I could keep going, but I don't think I have to.

As for my changing playstyle... A quick meta dive will answer your question there, or Arthur/Dunn can fill you in on my fluctuative moods.

BTD kill is bad obvs, it confirms BV even further in my eyes.
Cop kill is bad but with 2 conftowns (shannon, bv) we're actually looking pretty good imo

Being on good terms, I couldn't help but notice that you've become friends with Black Void. Perhaps this makeshift alliance will lead to great things in the future?

(Quote may not accurately represent my feelings I just was reminded of Civ)

I didn't see BV as 'super obv town' like you did yesterday, but all things considered he's moved up my town reads.

[shannon]

@HS if you've got something that makes you think Sly is town, I'm eager to hear it!

[shannon]

Nooooo we are neighbours I will miss him

[shannon]

Nooooo I love the neighbourhoods @hapahauli you gotta talk to me!

[shannon]

Hoping Arthur comes back or we get a good replacement. I'm also really hoping for more content from HS and SlySly at this point since those are my other two townreads. If I can feel comfortable about those three, I can figure out which two of Misere, Shannon, and Dunnstral are scum. Right now, I'm not comfortable with my reads yet.

Can you walk me through how you'd see any of us as teams? me + mis, me + dunn, dunn + mis?

I would also like to talk a bit more about HS and Sly. Sly scum read HS all yesterday and tunnelled him no end. When I called him out, he basically said he's sticking to the tunnel because he's sure he's right. (This was in 345). So one of your town reads is adamant the other is scum. How do you reconcile that?

[shannon]

Can someone explain to me why the neighborhoods matter at all? The way I see it, talking there just hides critical information from the town. For example:

slysly posted something in the PT that makes me think they're town but also makes me question their sanity

misere is still silent

VOTE: Misere

It would be lovely to have records of what slysly posted.

Why not ask Mis or Sly what was said?

I think neighbourhoods can be useful for town sharing information in a way that might make it tricky for scum to get a lock on the game. If you're in a situation like me and don't town read either neighbour particularly strongly, it's probably best to keep quiet. But if you are 110% sure your neighbour is town, you could share your results or targets with them. They can share the results in the main thread and take the night kill (unless they are protected), while you live to investigate/protect another day.

There's also the possibility of coordinating fake results in order to take pressure off of actual PRs. I think that's why the number of PRs in this game is unknown and why we also have neighbourhoods.

I have just come off a game where the designer's intended strategy was for the neighbours (there were only two, one was a PR) to use exactly the strategy above. Instead, we mucked it up and scum read both of them at various points, they scum read each other, and we lynched the PR because it seemed implausible. So let's not do that here. Use the neighbourhoods to work out who can be trusted and use that trust to our best advantage.

[shannon]

Dudes I feel like I'm mostly playing this game on my own, come on, let's do this.

@Dunn what makes you think Mis is town now?

@Mis why shouldn't Dunn think your'e town? What's suspicious about his change of mind?

[shannon]

I was going to say something clever but I'm really just happy to get rid of someone I should have pushed more yesterday. Sorry I ever moved off this wagon.

VOTE: Sly [

b]L-1[/b]

It's not like there's a shortage of reasons to vote him, but in addition to those, I'll say that I don't think we can take his tunnel vision in to LYLO. Please for the love of god someone hammer him.

[shannon]

If HS is a scum hammer then it's kind of obvious play, isn't it? Or maybe it's worth that risk when we are 3:2, because chances of HS' partner getting through are still pretty OK. Hmm.

I agree, nobody vote yet.

[shannon]

Sorry had to go buy plants. Never buy a house it just eats all your money.

I did a little re-read during the night but didn't come up with much new.

HS voted Jin and went at him D1, but then all of a sudden BV was town to him. HS has basically been coasting reads-wise since then IMHO.

I would like BV's opinion on this too once he joins us, whether he felt buddied vs genuine. I still TR BV based on the stuff I pointed out yesterday.

Mis claimed VT early in the game. I'm not sure what to make of that. Whether it was genuine or whether it was just enough to get PR Mis kept alive or whether it's Scum Mis trying to make a claim that won't get countered.

[shannon]

Dunn - Is my neighbour. First aboard the Jin wagon after Jin's slip, which earns points for me.

Dunnstral, is the slip why you voted Jin?

Aside from the vt claim at lynch time, things like this hold a certain nuance that I'd think are more advanced scum techniques


Blackvoid, I don't think you're scum with HS, either, because of the jin push (and putting him at l-1) and his response at the start. I don't think that was scum theatre.

HS + Shannon is what I'm strongly considering as the team

Are you saying that Mis's question was advanced scum, or my initial statement?

I would like to know why you are suddenly scum reading me after unapologetically sheeping me earlier in the game?

Also how you think HS and I make sense as a team? Like what connections you see there?

[shannon]

I am not sure HS is scum to even have a partner, really. I feel like a scum quick hammer is way too obvious. Like the scum team could have come in to today pretty much under the radar, so one of them overtly drawing attention to themselves seems silly.

I think that's why HS is alive today, for WIFOM.

I have a theory about why Hap died. I think he was targeted because he was starting to look town and because he was a new replacement, and replacements have a way of seeing things other people don't.

[shannon]

What level of sureness? And how so sure, what's the case?

His being scum is not impossible given what has happened so far, but I would say it's improbable.

[shannon]

If I join you on this and it's wrong, scum win with a hammer. Are you *that sure*?

[shannon]

Are you two really set on this? Not willing to entertain any other options? You really think I am being silly by saying HS's hammer is too scummy to be scum?

I just checked my 'hood with him and he says he hasn't read the thread, as of about two hours ago. I've told him to get in here because you guys want to lynch him.

[shannon]

VOTE: Human Sequencer

[shannon]

It was all down to BV's planning. He had plans and contingency plans in the scum PT. It was all very well thought out by him.

Also Dunn - Trust your gut more. I could not have been buddying you any more obviously in PT, and somehow you ended up wanting HS lynched.
We had worked out that you were a JK when I didn't get a result N2. If you were suss on me I was considering claiming Doc and that I had been blocked from saving Hapa.

[shannon]

Sorry, I used block in the generic sense - I would say I must have been jailkept given the setup possibilities

[shannon]

Well then, good thing I didn't do it.

[shannon]

Prolly didn't help that I told HS that you were going to lynch him and to get in here ASAP! lol