Micro 683: Frozen Angel Mafia

[RadiantCowbells]

Well think of it this way.

33% chance to lynch scum day 1.
37.5% chance to nightkill scum night 1.

Even if you consider day 2 an autowin at that point: and this game would have gone very sour for scum had I not fakeclaimed when I did: it's still pretty unlikely to get into this situation.

[Firebringer]

33% chance to lynch scum day 1.
37.5% chance to nightkill scum night 1.

well if you lynch scum day 1 then scum have control of the night kill.
so i don't know what you mean by this?

[RadiantCowbells]

Don't forget if we vote as a block belligerently it's very easy for dead thread to pin us out and nightkill us, especially since if we hardline a lynch day 1 it's easy for the person lynched to pick up on that and kill correctly.
I agree that this game felt bad but I don't think it was necessarily imbalanced. Just swingy and fast.

well if you lynch scum day 1 then scum have control of the night kill.
so i don't know what you mean by this?

Wait, we do?

[Firebringer]

Wait, we do?

the dead control the night kill for this game if i am not mistaken.
i reviewed it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh, yeah. You have a point actually. lynching scum day 1 wouldn't be too bad.
Like, the most recently lynched player? That kind of makes sense then.

[Firebringer]

Oh, yeah. You have a point actually. lynching scum day 1 wouldn't be too bad.
Like, the most recently lynched player? That kind of makes sense then.

its a total votes of all dead players.

so say you lynch scum day 1
they get to pick a night kill
day 2 you lynch another scum.
the dead two scum can vote to kill and the one dead town gets a vote.

so like even scum getting lynched here helps in a way.

[RadiantCowbells]

Uhh.

I mean scum can only get access to 2 of the nightkills and that's IF scum lose both members D1.
Then town gets a dead vig and a lynch in 3 way.

I still think this is pretty townsided.

[Varsoon]

Right.
The setup where we swing a loss off two mislynches is townsided.

[RadiantCowbells]

2 mislynches and a vig shot from dead town. yeah.

[Varsoon]

Okay, in what universe does town messing up 3 times = loss?

[Firebringer]

town sided maybe a bit but not by as much as you are making it I think.
yes, scum would have difficulty if they lost both teammates day 1 and day 2, but that goes for any game you are in. not just this game.
if scum got lynched early they can easily trick dead town into voting people who are not town for a dead townie as well even if they don't have majority in dead thread.

[RadiantCowbells]

Uhh. Any micro?

In 7-2 three failed lynches is a town loss.

[Varsoon]

Regardless, it just feels cheesy.

Other micros give town roles to mitigate issues.
Here, town's Vig just makes this swingier and takes power out of town collective hands.

[RadiantCowbells]

I agree. this is not a particularly good setup and is prone to some serious swing. but I do think that it's far some scumsided.

[Varsoon]

Yeah; it just rolled lame this way. I'd feel just as bummed if I was scum and we got hosed by N2.

[Firebringer]

I thought it was a pretty clever setup actually. I think maybe improved if "recently lynched becomes vig" but then its just vengeful claiming to be night kill.

[callforjudgement]

Just tried to work out the balance on this myself. Assuming I understand the setup correctly, the EV is a bit lower than 33% (it would be 33% exactly if town controlled the nightkills, but they don't if scum is lynched D1, which reduces it slightly). That's within the range I'd consider sane for a setup where the scum have no nightkill. It is likely to be over surprisingly quickly either way, though, and the game's small enough that it's inevitably going to be highly swingy (and in swingy games, the balance doesn't matter so much because the swing is going to outweigh it).

It would probably be better if town had knowledge of when lylo is, though. The scum could have made a plausible guess (although they might also have incorrectly suspected an opposite scumteam, given the circumstances), whereas the town didn't really have enough information, meaning that misplaying lylo becomes fairly risky. I doubt town would have followed the rolecop guilty so automatically if they knew that lynching a townie would lose the game.

[Prince Lyon]

Just tried to work out the balance on this myself. Assuming I understand the setup correctly, the EV is a bit lower than 33% (it would be 33% exactly if town controlled the nightkills, but they don't if scum is lynched D1, which reduces it slightly). That's within the range I'd consider sane for a setup where the scum have no nightkill. It is likely to be over surprisingly quickly either way, though, and the game's small enough that it's inevitably going to be highly swingy (and in swingy games, the balance doesn't matter so much because the swing is going to outweigh it).

It would probably be better if town had knowledge of when lylo is, though. The scum could have made a plausible guess (although they might also have incorrectly suspected an opposite scumteam, given the circumstances), whereas the town didn't really have enough information, meaning that misplaying lylo becomes fairly risky. I doubt town would have followed the rolecop guilty so automatically if they knew that lynching a townie would lose the game.

Yeah. That lack of information was something I was counting on to close out the game.

[TierShift]

I like the setup and it's pretty balanced.

I understand that most townies did not expect the game over and therefore the mechanic kind of screwed town in the end. However, this is a bastard game and a balanced one at that, so they don't have any reason to complain.

[TierShift]

I guess balance-wise that this is just a 6:3 nightless, yeah

[Frozen Angel]

I guess balance-wise that this is just a 6:3 nightless, yeah

its really not the same

[Dunnstral]

Well I didn't actually ever get a chance to do anything this game but here's my opinion from what I saw:

I'm going to disagree and say this setup was pretty unbalanced, and also if the only thing you look at is statistical EV then you're a bad player and probably not worthy to be designing setups.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but it's the truth. Here's what I see:

So the game starts off 3 scum 6 town. town getting lynched day 1 is pretty common, above 50% occurrence

The problem here is that the same town who just got lynched, is now the sole chooser of the kill. I'm not blaming Titus this game, I'm just saying setup-wise: The townie that

got lynched

day 1 is also town's kill for that night.

Now here's where this becomes extremely swingy and scumsided: that townie shoots town. The game is now essentially over. Town doesn't get 3 kills, they get 2. Because I got janned, town assumes it was a scum kill, and there's no reason to assume otherwise. Only scum know that it is lylo, and to the town

they've only been involved in 1 mislynch so far

. because of this, there's no reason to believe that faking a guilty on someone with

7

players still alive, and only 1 percieved mislynch, could possibly end the game with 1 townie misvoting

What's the "ev" of all 4 living townies turning against the guy who fake claimed, rather than the guilty at that point? My guess is the odds are less than 1% realistically.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but having looked into setup design this really bugs me; and the game ending there

feels

like mod error.

The worst part, really, is that town collectively messed up ONCE, and then Titus messed up on her own (not bashing Titus, just that the rest of town had no say in that kill), and then the last lynch can't even be called town messing up because of the circumstances around it

[Dunnstral]

well if you lynch scum day 1 then scum have control of the night kill.

on the other hand this is pretty neat balance wise if scum dies n1

[Dunnstral]

day 1 rather

[Frozen Angel]

I understand that most townies did not expect the game over and therefore the mechanic kind of screwed town in the end. However, this is a bastard game and a balanced one at that, so they don't have any reason to complain.

a game being bastard - doesn't jutify unfairness btw

that call is wrong