Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

[Keyser Söze]

Akarin, who did you want to half-hour hammer?

[Keyser Söze]

We really need to flip the roleblocker today, that's kind of at the forefront of my mind.

Have you ruled out a town-jailkeeper?

[Keyser Söze]

I have been playing the perfect game so far.
Every decision I've made has been pro-town: defending 'town', lynching 'scum', opposing 'anti-town' play.
If all my scum-reads flip scum and my town-reads flip town this will be my best performance to date.
Thus, I will allow your town-paranoia.

[Keyser Söze]

Right now, I'm put my scum-reads to a side (LUV and Matt). I found their associations via JarJar all too convincing so I felt that I was in confirmation bias (a weakness of my play). My theory of them is found in D2.

Today is about proving to myself that my town reads are town.

So far, I've looked at Sheep. I still don't buy the reverse distancing theory. I'm unlikely ever to vote for him unless he investigates as GUILTY. No one has convinced me of scum-Sheep yet. I find his playstyle impenetrable.

I'm going to ignore the possibility of RC being a Godfather or Rauth fakeclaiming backup cop. I decided to make them my constants from D2 going forward. If they are scum the game was game over Day 1 when Gerry was miss-lynched. I have to work with both of them now to find scum.

I'll be looking at Akarin, Grendel and yourself next. Then finally Frogger.

[Keyser Söze]

Wow, yeah Godfather is a normal classic mafia role where I'm from. A staple mark scum role. Thanks for the confirmation Pine.

[Keyser Söze]

Your SRs of LUV/mbg were based on JJD associations?

Sheep basically tunneled on my slot all of Day 2 and continually found new reasons to scumread me. He did basically nothing for Town Day 2 I see no reason why you should be so unlikely to vote for him.

Ok, in summary - are you saying Sheep was trying to indirectly derail the JarJar lynch by trying to refocus our attention on your lynch via his passionate tunnel?
Moreover, he was supporting that scum-read of you with reachy/NIA reasons?

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser Keyser Keyser who do you want to lynch today?

Not fro99er.

Like LUV said, we must judge him on Vifam's play too (who I was t/reading).

Plus, I think Fro99er-LUV is very unlikely a scum-team (I have subconsciously ruled it out via D1 VCA).

[Keyser Söze]

I'm saying the motivation is there. I see very few reasons for town!Sheep to completely disappear from thread. I wouldn't even call his tunnel passionate. He was only half-heartedly trying to push me and I didn't see any real defense of JJD either. Can't really see the town motivation there at all.

His scum read of me involved continually manufacturing new justifications, some of which were reachy/NAI, yes.

Ok Nancy - I will re-read D2 through your perspective and Sheeps.

[Keyser Söze]

I was townleaning Vifam. Could you provide the VCA on that?

It was in regard JarJar, LUV and Vifam all being on gerry's misslynch wagon.

[Keyser Söze]

Here are VCs for referencing purposes.

Spoiler: Day 1 VCs

==> Vote Count 1.2 <==

[L-7]

Alisae -

[L-4]

Grendel - Keyser Söze, mattblackguy, Cooperative Sheep

[L-7]

Akarin -

[L-5]

Rautherdir - Vifam, Transcend

[L-5]

gerryoat - RadiantCowbells, Alisae

[L-7]

JarJarDrinks -

[L-7]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-7]

Transcend -

[L-7]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-7]

Keyser Söze -

[L-7]

Vifam -

[L-6]

mattblackguy - Lil Uzi Vert

[L-6]

RadiantCowbells - JarJarDrinks,

Waiting for their DOOM

- Grendel, Akarin, gerryoat, Rautherdir

==> Vote Count 1.3 <==

[L-7]

Alisae -

[L-5]

Grendel - Cooperative Sheep, JarJarDrinks

[L-7]

Akarin -

[L-6]

Rautherdir - Transcend

[L-4]

gerryoat - RadiantCowbells, Alisae, Grendel

[L-5]

JarJarDrinks - Vifam, mattblackguy

[L-7]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-6]

Transcend - Rautherdir

[L-7]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-7]

Keyser Söze -

[L-6]

Vifam - gerryoat

[L-6]

mattblackguy - Lil Uzi Vert

[L-7]

RadiantCowbells -

Waiting for their DOOM

- Akarin, Keyser Söze

==> Vote Count 1.4 <==

[L-7]

Alisae -

[L-5]

Grendel - Cooperative Sheep, JarJarDrinks

[L-7]

Akarin -

[L-7]

Rautherdir -

[L-2]

gerryoat - RadiantCowbells, Alisae, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert, Transcend

[L-5]

JarJarDrinks - Vifam, mattblackguy

[L-7]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-7]

Transcend -

[L-7]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-7]

Keyser Söze -

[L-6]

Vifam - gerryoat

[L-7]

mattblackguy -

[L-7]

RadiantCowbells -

Waiting for their DOOM

- Akarin, Keyser Söze, Rautherdir

[L-1]

gerryoat - RadiantCowbells, Alisae, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert, Transcend, JarJarDrinks

==> Vote Count 1.5 (FINAL) <==

[L-7]

Alisae -

[L-6]

Grendel - Cooperative Sheep,

[L-7]

Akarin -

[L-7]

Rautherdir -

[LYNCH ACHIEVED]

gerryoat - RadiantCowbells, Alisae, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert, Transcend, JarJarDrinks, Vifam

[L-6]

JarJarDrinks - mattblackguy

[L-7]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-7]

Transcend -

[L-7]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-7]

Keyser Söze -

[L-6]

Vifam - gerryoat

[L-7]

mattblackguy -

[L-7]

RadiantCowbells -

Waiting for their DOOM

- Akarin, Keyser Söze, Rautherdir

Spoiler: Day 2 VCs

==> Vote Count 2.1 <==

[L-6]

Grendel -

[L-6]

Akarin -

[L-6]

Rautherdir -

[L-6]

JarJarDrinks -

[L-6]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-5]

Transcend - Cooperative Sheep

[L-5]

Cooperative Sheep - Transcend

[L-6]

Keyser Söze -

[L-6]

Vifam - Grendel

[L-3]

mattblackguy - RadiantCowbells, Keyser Söze, Lil Uzi Vert

[L-4]

RadiantCowbells - JarJarDrinks, mattblackguy

Waiting for their DOOM

- Akarin, Rautherdir, Vifam

==> Vote Count 2.2 <==

[L-6]

Grendel -

[L-5]

Akarin - Vifam

[L-4]

Rautherdir - RadiantCowbells, Transcend

[L-6]

JarJarDrinks -

[L-6]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-3]

Transcend - Cooperative Sheep, Rautherdir, JarJarDrinks

[L-6]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-6]

Keyser Söze -

[L-5]

Vifam - Akarin

[L-4]

mattblackguy - Keyser Söze, Lil Uzi Vert

[L-5]

RadiantCowbells - mattblackguy

Waiting for their DOOM

- Grendel

==> Vote Count 2.3 <==

[L-6]

Grendel -

[L-6]

Akarin -

[L-5]

Rautherdir - Transcend

[L-6]

JarJarDrinks -

[L-6]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-1]

Transcend - Cooperative Sheep, Rautherdir, JarJarDrinks, Vifam, RadiantCowbells

[L-6]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-6]

Keyser Söze -

[L-4]

Vifam - Akarin, mattblackguy

[L-4]

mattblackguy - Keyser Söze, Lil Uzi Vert

[L-6]

RadiantCowbells -

Waiting for their DOOM

- Grendel

==> Vote Count 2.4 <==

[L-6]

Grendel -

[L-6]

Akarin -

[L-6]

Rautherdir -

[L-6]

JarJarDrinks -

[L-6]

Lil Uzi Vert -

[L-1]

Transcend - Cooperative Sheep, Rautherdir, JarJarDrinks, Vifam, RadiantCowbells

[L-6]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-6]

Keyser Söze -

[L-3]

Vifam - Akarin, mattblackguy, Transcend

[L-4]

mattblackguy - Keyser Söze, Lil Uzi Vert

[L-6]

RadiantCowbells -

Waiting for their DOOM

- Grendel

==> Vote Count 2.5 <==

[L-6]

Grendel -

[L-6]

Akarin -

[L-6]

Rautherdir -

[L-4]

JarJarDrinks - Akarin, RadiantCowbells

[L-5]

Lil Uzi Vert - mattblackguy

[L-5]

nancy - Cooperative Sheep

[L-6]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-6]

Keyser Söze -

[L-6]

Vifam -

[L-5]

mattblackguy - Keyser Söze

[L-5]

RadiantCowbells - nancy

Waiting for their DOOM

- Rautherdir, Vifam, JarJarDrinks, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert

==> Vote Count 2.6 <==

[L-6]

Grendel -

[L-6]

Akarin -

[L-6]

Rautherdir -

[L-1]

JarJarDrinks - Akarin, nancy, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert, Fro99er

[L-3]

Lil Uzi Vert - mattblackguy, Keyser Söze, RadiantCowbells

[L-4]

nancy - Cooperative Sheep, JarJarDrinks

[L-6]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-6]

Keyser Söze -

[L-6]

Fro99er -

[L-6]

mattblackguy -

[L-6]

RadiantCowbells -

Waiting for their DOOM

- Rautherdir

==> Vote Count 2.7 (FINAL) <==

[L-6]

Grendel -

[L-6]

Akarin -

[L-6]

Rautherdir -

[LYNCH ACHIEVED]

JarJarDrinks - Akarin, Grendel, Lil Uzi Vert, nancy, Rautherdir, Fro99er

[L-3]

Lil Uzi Vert - mattblackguy, Keyser Söze, RadiantCowbells

[L-4]

nancy - Cooperative Sheep, JarJarDrinks

[L-6]

Cooperative Sheep -

[L-6]

Keyser Söze -

[L-6]

Fro99er -

[L-6]

mattblackguy -

[L-6]

RadiantCowbells -

Thanks.

In regard D2 VCA, scum had the choice to bus JarJar (from the point of Rauth town clearing RC, JarJar was a dead man walking). Thus, it wouldn't surprise me if 1 scum bussed him. But I'm not going to lynch someone off the back of that VCA as they could have both chosen to remain on counter wagons (as per your suspicions).

I have more faith in my D1 VCA that the 3 scum wouldn't have all powered through Gerry's misslynch on the same wagon (thus, I can't see 2 scum from Grendel, LUV, you and Frogger). Unless evidence/PoE contradicts that conclusion.

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: LUV-JarJar associations I posted D2

Reading through LUV's 50 post ISO now... on phone so excuse the poor presentation.

VOTE: RC


He should have had @ least 3 hard scumreads that he's pushed insanely strong by now.

This is a bit of a reach here. The game just officially started.

Are you being serious Lil Uzi?

Yes

At the time this felt to me like LUV was giving JarJar a scum read for no reason. "Reach"? JarJar was obviously being sarcastic.

if i keep them to myself, how can i help town

By not helping scum.

how are my reads terrible? how do you know grendel is town?

Why are your reads good? How do you know Grendel's scum?

Are these questions helping Gerry help LUV. No.

I have no idea what is happening but I guess it's RVS so I'll just vote someone.

VOTE: Akarin

Scummy post

No, your reply is the actually definition of scummy. Where's your vote? Where are the attempts to dig? Do you not care why he thinks Gerry is scum and RC is town?

More of LUV scum reading hard on JarJar. Let's see the development of LUV vs JarJar through the game. No vote yet!

Hey mama, I'm all caught up!

I think there are at least two scum within Gerry/Jar/Matt/Vifam.

VOTE: Gerry

Oh no, LUV votes my boyfriend instead. I think his vote should have been on JarJar here.

Not convinced by Rauth so far. I want to see him upset an active player. Feels like he's trying to play a safe game. Once I see his teeth I may get a better look inside his soul.

Why would seeing him purposely upset active players make you feel better about his alignment?

Upset as in engage in an interaction that demands him to reason out a conflict of reads / ideas / beliefs. I want to see blood.

Not "upset" as in 'your breath stinks of penis'.

I just don't understand why you associate engaging with upset. I think him being himself has been enough so far.

I don't know why LUV was grilling me on this. I had a reason of concern on Rauth. (Rauth has just revealed he was being closed and scummy on purpose so it explains his behaviour perfectly now). I don't know why LUV had to step in and defend Rauth.

I have no idea what is happening but I guess it's RVS so I'll just vote someone.

VOTE: Akarin

Scummy post

No, your reply is the actually definition of scummy. Where's your vote?

I pointed out his post was scummy. That doesn't mean I automatically vote him. I pointed out other scummy posts as well.

Where are the attempts to dig?

What else can I really say about that post? I explained to him why I thought it was scummy.

Do you not care why he thinks Gerry is scum and RC is town?

Sure I care.

Well my thing is, why? Just saying it's scummy without backing it up is pointless and arguably will help him in the long run if he's scum. He'll know that whatever he did, said, or how he said something isn't ok and possibly will be able to adjust and blend in better.

I really don't like last part of this reply. Does it sound sarcastic to anyone else?

I just don't understand why you associate engaging with upset. I think him being himself has been enough so far.

"Engaging" does not = "upsetting". But it is one part of interactions I like to look at.

Part of my concern I am sure you should be able to relate to. You personally asked Rautherdir: "Are you usually this cautious?".

There is one type of mafia playing style I have encountered that Rautherdir has exhibited. Thus, I want to drill down on what he actually is posting (does he believe any of it? is he willing to broadcast those beliefs to everyone? is he willing to cause conflict in order to push his scum-reads?).

"I think him being himself has been enough so far."

- it sounds like you currenty town-read Rautherdir so I'd expect for that to be your default position. Do you have a problem with me wanting more from Rautherdir in order to 'enhance' my read of him?

Yes I currently town read him and I think I do. I'm not completely sure yet because I haven't had a chance to mull it over deeply but from your original request, it seems like you want him to purposely go out of character.

Point accepted. Please continue.

I'll come back to your slot if you lynch town.

Huh?

For the love of God get your vote on JarJar, you've presented the biggest case on him but not followed through with a vote.

More defending of Rauth. Why was I not allowed to question his suspicious behaviour? He wasn't confirmed town.

On a serious note, I think scum is in Jar, Matt, Sheep, and Vifam. I can't seem to get a solid read on Akarin.

I think JJD is town too I forgot about him

Why are you town reading Jar? Is it for his recent tunneling? If so, what are your thoughts on RC's take on that?

Again... on Day 2..."I think scum is in Jar", "why are you town reading Jar?"

You haven't shown you believe it yet. Where's your vote right now... it was on RC...

Pre-flip association analysis on LUV and JarJar... it's not looking good gents.


Your vote on Gerry was too easy. But your whole D1 push was on JarJar.


I feel a disturbance in the force.

Don't tell me how I'm supposed to react to your crap.

This is scum flail.

You're just lashing out here in hopes that people will let up. I don't think any amount of pressure at this point is going to help discren your alignment.

VOTE: RC

This is a really sketchy way to push a narrative.

I was just saying how I feel. Why do you feel like I'm not telling the full story?

How you feel huh?

How do you feel about JarJar?

Vifam probably isn't scum sadly.

--

VOTE: Matt

I really don't like last part of this reply. Does it sound sarcastic to anyone else?

Hard to tell in text - if he had said "Suuuuuuure I care" then, yeah, sarcastic, if he had said "Sure I care" then, no. Can't tell without tonal inflections.

Vifam probably isn't scum sadly.

--

VOTE: Matt

Could you tell me whyI should sheep onto Matt and also why you didn't sheep onto Transcend?

I don't really do cases, just reasons:

His joking around with Gerry earlier felt forced.
His vote for Grendel also felt forced. It read to me like he sensed he needed to do a strong town motivated play at the time to discourage any suspicion.
I didn't like how he just sort of shrugged of the chance to get a better idea of RC's alignment who he claims he's wary of.
I don't like how he opened today, feels like he should be voting for RC or Keyser.

--

As to why I didn't sheep you on to Transcend is because I don't really have a read on your slot and from what I remember of D1, Transcend didn't come off as scummy.

Votes Matt early doors.


Why jump off this wagon where all your reasons sound like you've convinced yourself of Matt = scum?

[Keyser Söze]

A purely association case via his interactions with JarJar (thus, not a tangible scum case where he is scum for X, Y and Z.)

[Keyser Söze]

What if it's a

Jar Jar, Matt

, Frogger scumteam?

Been re-reading your D2 ISO.

If mattblackguy is scum, this is the moment where Akarin absolutely sewed up the JarJarDrinks-mattblackguy scum connection:

It doesn't really make sense that his first reaction to Gerrys flip is that RC was reaction testing. Like shouldn't he have considered that RC was scum that got caught fakeclaiming? Especially considering that he soon starting pushing RC-scum soon after.

RC scum still makes more sense. But Town RC/Town Matt makes no sense.

What does this even mean? You're scumreading RC, but if RC is town, Matt is definitely scum, even though you're townreading Matt? And you have a problem with Transcend suspecting scum Matt but town RC, but your argument here is basically an argument for scum Matt, town RC?

Why should Town RC imply scum Matt?

Question JJD: if you can conceive of either of our slots being town and the either scum, then why can't you conceive of both of our slots being town?

Like if either one of our interactions could have been TvS there's no reason why they couldn't have both been and the whole situation being TvT.

I mean I don't think it's impossible for you both to be town. I just think it's ridiculous that transcend can rule BOTH of you out as scum.

That's not the argument you made though.

So why is that a ridiculous read from Transcend?

The statement from Matt is scummy regardless. I've already said that the statement could come from scum matt even if RC is scum as well. But it makes way more sense for scum matt to make it about town RC.

And as I said later, It's not impossible for for them both to be town. My statement was directed @ trans and how terrible it was for him to be townreading the both of them.

Yeah, I can see why Matt's post is scummy, but that's not what I'm asking. You said later they could both be town. But exactly as you just said, you think it was terrible for Transcend to be townreading both of them. Which means you think that if RC is town, Matt should be more likely than average to be scum.

But nothing you've said explains that. Why do you think that?

Akarin

- slight scumlean. I feel like a lot of her questions directed @ me are designed to get me to scumread Matt and/or townread RC. Agree w/ her vif and rauth reads though.

I wasn't trying to get you to scumread Matt. I was pointing out that your reasoning doesn't make sense. You basically logic yourself into having a scumread on Matt, but then don't actually have one, and now are scumreading me for "trying to get you to have a scumread on Matt."

I'm pointing out that by your logic, you already

should

have a scumread on Matt, but you don't, you think Matt is town and RC is scum. And regardless of Matt, who honestly I'm not sure how I feel about,

that

is scummy.

It's not real logic, it's convenient reads and then logic made up to support them.

Akarin is already a t/lean, but if Matt flips red, Akarin just won the internet.

Even if Matt flips town, Akarin has still won town points for her logical argument versus JarJar.

Akarin: would not lynch today

.

[Keyser Söze]

Grendel's points regarding scum-Cooperative Sheep:

"Gives piece meal statements about Gerry being a good wagon then votes Grendel b/c, " lol, Its my flavor""
"Has a null read on Keyser. Which means that Sheep is sheeping a null read, while ignoring a wagon started by a town read (RC) on a slot he thinks is a good lynch (Gerry)."
"I don't see how the above points would be hard for scum to come to a conclusion too. I don't see the above points putting him in a position that would be sub optimal for scum."
"The ability to form a logical argument doesn't equate to town."
"I can’t help but feel that you have been manipulative. That behind your woolly façade there is some real scum intent."
"I feel like you're trying to do more to prove me dumb rather then prove me scum."
"I think it is that you are more interested in proving me wrong then proving I'm scum"
"on my rvs wagon"

However:

I like the cut of your jib.

I think this is a point against Co-opxJarJar team. Usually don't see scum praise a buddy for joining them on a wagon.

Do you still hold the same position regarding that 'scum buddy praise'?

Grendel's changing read on mattblackguy:

[TOWN]
"I think that Matt is town based off of yesterdays wagon construction (On me)."

[SCUM]
"I usually remember when someone town reads me, but for some reason seeing this surprised me."
"Like you reads coming into today seem to have flipped completely."
"I didn't like the move on Vifam by mattblk."
"your whole case is that "My gut says Grendel is town" with no context."
"My scum dream team would be: {JarJar, Mattblk, Sheep}"

Conclusion

- I liked Grendel's developing read on Matt on D2, from ruling him out as scum (with VCA, when looking at his own RVS wagon) to slowly being more paranoid with Matt when Matt started t/reading him too easily.

- I can see why Grendel was s/reading Cooperative Sheep too - he feels Sheep is not trying to sort him and others, instead he suspects Sheep is deflecting attention away from him with arguments over logic than alignment. He fears Sheep is not actually trying to solve the game, instead being more concerned about being 'right'.

- I would not lynch Grendel before finding out more 'information' on Cooperative Sheep and mattblackguy. Grendel remains in my safe pile.

[Keyser Söze]

Time to steer the VC in the right direction:

VOTE: mattblackguy

[Keyser Söze]

Alright so here's where we're at with the final 2 scum.

Rauth,RC,Keyser,Grendel,Akarin are all town. Don't need to worry here.

You are in no position to say this. Only Rauth.

There has to be 1 or 2 scum that bussed Jar, because only people that didnt vote him was me(town), Rc(town), Kesyer(town), and Sheep(???)

Scum had the choice to bus but it is not certain. JarJar was a dead man walking, so less townpoints to win. What's your thoughts in regard D1 VCA?

[LYNCH ACHIEVED] JarJarDrinks - Akarin(town), Grendel(town), Lil Uzi Vert(???), nancy(???), Rautherdir(town), Fro99er(???)

This leaves Lil Uzi Vert, nancy, and Frogger as the possible bussers.

All 3 lynched gerryoats. I'm finding it hard to believe all 3 scum would be present on that miss-lynch. Am I being foolish and short-sighted to rule out the possibility?

Possible scumteams(in no particular order):

(1){JarJar,LUV,Frogger}

LUV-Frogger: What do you make of their D3 interactions?

(2){JarJar,Nancy,Frogger}
(3){Jarjar,Sheep,Frogger}
(4){Jarjar,Sheep,LUV}
(5){Jarjar,Sheep,Nancy}
(6){Jarjar,LUV,Nancy}

(1) - I think is the most likely team
(2) - It's possible that Nancy bussed JarJar, and flipped on her reads after Rauth cleared RC, but I don't think that's too likely with how the Transcend wagon shaped out. It would mean both Vifam, and Jar were bussing Transcend for barely anything more than policy reasons. Transcend's lynch was easily avoidable given how little of a case was given on him, so I don't think they'd go with it that easily. Probably least likely team.
(3) - Someone else can go until more detail about this as a possibility. Probably second most likely team

As it's the second most likely team, tell me more about Sheep.

(4) - Idk what to say about this one. Maybe someone else can give some input if they think this is likely.
(5) - For the same reason I think (2) is unlikely I think this one is unlikely.
(6) - This one would be a weird team. Idk the liklihood of this being the team.

Actually now that I think about it more it doesn't look like Nancy would fit well in any team. She's probably not scum.

Why Frogger is scum, and should be lynched today:

1. His entrance of the game reads like a super hard bus on JarJar to try and gain towncred

It looks like a super hard bus, but he won no towncred for exactly those reasons. People still want him dead today.

2. He scumread on me was super weak and nongenuine but tried to push it off as truth. Seriously look at his reasons for scumreading me yesterday. Said I was scum for scumreading Jar for a weak reason, and then townreading him day 2, but Vifam(his slot) did the same exact thing. Says I'm scum because I didn't want to policy lynch transcend and announced he was at L-1. Then misrepresented my reason for not hammering Transcend (he said it was only because my scumreads were on the wagon, but ignorned the fact that I didn't want to policy lynch). Says I'm confirmed scum because he doesn't like my reads post.
3. After his back and forth with Jar he backed off of Jar, and started pushing me even though there was nothing that Jar said that warranted him to back off of him. He then pushed me, and tried to get others to push me because he knew it would be better to get a mislynch on me first before lynching Jar day 3.

Scum-Fro99er would have just kept to his bus-plan and finished off the job on JarJar. JarJar was a dead man. If scum-Fro99er had pushed through a 'miss-lynch' on you, his name and word would have meant nothing by D3.

VOTE: Frog

Good shit RC. Keep pushing me Frog. I wanna see how it's going to work out for you.

[Keyser Söze]

Just remembered this:

Pine promised me pain.


Is this a normal single-scum faction set-up?

I'm afraid I can't answer that.

Had a scum-team of 3 fixed in my head.

The set-up could still be 10:2:1 or 9:2:2.

[Keyser Söze]

This changes things...

[Keyser Söze]

Don't ask that Frogger. That information is best kept secret.

[Keyser Söze]

Don't ask that Frogger. That information is best kept secret.

No because if RC is told they got shot then it basically confirms matt as scum. It strongly implies scum jailed Rauth and tried to kill RC.

It was the x-shot part I didn't think was good to reveal. If RC knows the answer to the 2nd part, that's ok.

[Keyser Söze]

Yes, he was a mass s/read.

Matt, answer Frogger's question: who did you protect N1?

[Keyser Söze]

Dis gonna be good.

[Keyser Söze]

5 minutes bro...

[Keyser Söze]

I cannot confirm whether I was roleblocked or not...

Thus, his N1 action cannot be verified.

He either made a lucky guess or is infact a 'jailkeeper' - does anyone have information that contradicts Matt's two night movements?

[Keyser Söze]

I kinda want to just lynch someone I know I'm not bringing to LyLo as an information lynch.

I'd rather NO LYNCH than info-lynch someone I'm not s/reading. We're in a strong position right now, there's no need to let scum force our hand. We wait and read

[Keyser Söze]

Akarin's case on JJD was actually misreppy. What Akarin actually should've been pushing for there was an overly pedantic argument/analysis by JJD typical of scum who are reaching for material that isn't there.

What's your current read of Akarin?

[Keyser Söze]

The alternative is that Keyser is scum if Matt flips town

Do you still stand by this?
I.e If Matt is the

town

jailkeeper does your VCA/analysis say I

must

be scum?

[Keyser Söze]

Transcend's D2 posts (Nancy slot):

Grendel wagon yesterday sucked and it contained {Keyser, matt, Sheep, JarJar, Vifam}

I bet at least 2 scum were here.

Transcend was more transfixed with Grendel's RVS wagon than Gerry's miss-lynch wagon. He states "at least" two scum were on it. JarJar has since flipped scum. (Leaving myself, Matt, Sheep and Frogger's slot).

JarJar's play today, although very aggressive and questionable, feels kinda towny.

I think matt is town as well

{Keyser, Sheep, Vifam} is a safe lynch pool for me today imo.

Transcend goes through D2 t/reading JarJar. He removes JarJar and Matt's name from the wagon above leaving 3 names.

IMO one scum in:
Grendel
Akarin *
Rautherdir
Lil Uzi Vert
RadiantCowbells

And two in:
JarJarDrinks
Cooperative Sheep Soumil07
Keyser Söze
Vifam
mattblackguy

More unsupported 1 in x/2 in x theory.

Now taking out my townreads/leans

1 in:
Akarin
Rautherdir

2 in:
Cooperative Sheep
Keyser Soze
Vifam

Transcend will later call JarJar and RC's argument as TvT.

Jarjar is surely town

Meta question: does scum-Transcend hard t/read his partner?
Transcend has left JarJar out of all his D2 lynch pools.

Matt's a mislynch.

There was growing paranoia on both JarJar and Matt. Transcend (in his usual unsupported one liner style) basically tries to shut down that avenue. Transcend previously said Matt was town.

Transcend was actively fighting against a JarJar and Matt lynch.

Does anyone have playing experience with scum-Transcend. Have you seen him use reverse distancing before? Because this isn't the behaviour I'd normally expect from a scum-team. When I am scum I usually scum-lean a teammate or at least have them in null.

[Keyser Söze]

Cooperative Sheep's Alt disclaimer: "I'm intentionally trying a different playstyle to test it."

I feel this impenetrable-closed playstyle is stopping me from getting a solid/genuine read on you. I feel like you should open up and shout who you think is scum and who is town (RC style)

For some reason, I feel like you haven't communicated who you want lynched and who you want alive clearly/strongly enough.


I no longer think this is a good enough reason for me to t/read you:

Sheep town through controlled protown play, would be hard to lynch.

[Keyser Söze]

Mass-claim is a bad idea this early - we're still in control.

We'll likely lynch in the VT's anyway today.

[Keyser Söze]

Nancy, do you need a hug?

*warm tender platonic hug*

Once Akarin checks in, I'll rejoin the party.

[Keyser Söze]

mattblackguy: I'm the town jailkeeper!

Fro99er : No! That's not true!

That's impossible!

mattblackguy: Silence! Stupid frog. I'm the town jailkeeper. From this day forth...

you put your faith in me!

nancy: No! No! If scum is town and town is scum... I don't know anymore.

mattblackguy: Ye-he-he. And now is the time to declare yourself. Come forward and join us... or die.

RadiantCowbells: I could lynch anyone right now.




Cooperative Sheep: Let's mass claim!

Keyser Söze: Let's wait for Akarin before we all self-destruct!

[Keyser Söze]

Lil Uzi Vert and Akarin still to check in and add their thoughts on mattblackguy's role-claim...

[Keyser Söze]

I jailed Keyser night 1, because I felt like he had a decent chance to be killed, and would be a decent person to keep alive.

mattblackguy, explain to me why you jailkeeped me N1, when you came into D2 saying:

Why is Keyser a strong townread? I can see him as scum.

The fact that Keyser didn't make a vote outside of RVS yet was still active is a little concerning.

[Keyser Söze]

If RC and Rauth are scum they've won, because we'll likely lynch through 4 or 5 VT's before they are touched.


LUV and Akarin need nudges.

I want answers from Matt.

[Keyser Söze]

Uh, RC is town. There is no way the investigation I got lied, the only way for me not to see alignment correctly is if I am roleblocked or if my target is Ascetic.

What result did you get?

[Keyser Söze]

I think he reacts negatively to it - easy behaviour to imitate though.

[Keyser Söze]

Or maybe me, RC, and Rauth are all town (ps. this is the correct answer)

@Keyser, End of day 1 you were a townlean for me. I didn't read over your ISO more until after Vifam said you were a strong townread. And when I said you could be scum because you didn't try to counter Gerry wagon by creating a wagon of one of your scumreads (after the Grendel wagon collapsed), it was what I was honestly thinking at the time. I can see scum motivation in saying you don't agree with a lynch on a townie, but not trying to counter it with a different wagon because you don't care if the townie gets lynched. The fact that day 1 ended in 2 days though makes all of this meaningless because I will never know if you would eventually try to start a counter wagon. This is why I didn't push you for this reason, because after I said that I understood the day was too short for this to be a substantive read. I understand why you are saying my read on you was bad, but I don't understand why you keep pushing me on that bad read.

Yes, I understand why you were s/reading me D2 (despite not agreeing with it).

But my concern was the discrepancy of your changed read of me.
Why were you t/leaning me D1 then?
Why didn't you jailkeep one of your two strongest t/reads (Alisae / Grendel)?

[Keyser Söze]

You mean you think he could've been imitating it this game?

RC is a 'master of manipulation'. It wouldn't be out if his reach to copy his town meta.
I wouldn't rely on my meta analysis though

However, we can't touch RC today because of that INNOCENT investigation. That is what's changed the direction of the game since D2. Plus, if RC flips town that tells us nothing about Rauth.

[Keyser Söze]

Meta can be manipulated and players can play differently - I wouldn't lynch anyone for meta-reasons anymore. Plus, I wouldn't have faith to lynch someone off my meta-analysis either.

Have you been reading RC's previous town games?

[Keyser Söze]

At this stage we are forced to believe Rauth.

We won't be lynching Rauth (claimed backup cop) before players with bad associations with JarJar.

Plus, Rauth's suspicious play was explained by Rauth saying he purposely played suspiciously to deter attention at night...

[Keyser Söze]

Before I jump off Matt I'd need input from LUV and Akarin.

[Keyser Söze]

LUV has associations via JarJar (thus, haven't been t/reading him since D2) - convince me of "kinda townie".

The majority are saying Sheep is scum, so I have been forced to listen there.

[Keyser Söze]

I'm at work Nancy

I would vote LUV over Sheep right now - but need an update from LUV and Akarin first.

Once we have a firm stance on Matt we can then re-read and go from there.

Basically, scum either targeted RC or Rauth last night.

[Keyser Söze]

If I was a vig: one from LUV/Sheep

If I was scum: one of the town-core/PR's, leave all the suspicious people/VT's alive.

[Keyser Söze]

I usually expect scum to more often defend town, than their scum partner.

I have already subconsciously writen off a LUV-Nancy scum-team (VCA), but now looking back at LUV-Transcend interactions:

LUV gives a town-meta defense of Transcend:

Why's that pinging you? Transcend doesn't strike me as one to prod dodge unless it's something IRL related.

LUV telling me to look at Transcend's motivation than attacking his playstyle:

Why not ask him to show you what he's doing or show you how he does what he's doing so you can feel better at ease? You sound a bit reluctant to approach his play style this way.

LUV questioning Rauth why he thought Transcend was scum:

Why are you scum reading Transcend?

LUV chastising RC over his treatment towards Transcend:

This push is shit. You call for Transcend to start contributing but you sounded so fixated on your view of him already I highly doubt you would've dropped wanting to essentially policy lynch him no matter how hard he would've tried. Why didn't you attempt to see why Transcend had the thoughts he had on each player and engage him on each of those reads? I can see why he felt the way he did about Keyser for example and would've offered the small amount of meta knowledge I have on him.

LUV expressing a clear town-read of Nancy (Transcend's replacement):

I'm really feeling nancy for town and even with what I learned, your play here just seems survivalistic.

LUV stating that he scum-reads Sheep for his push on the Transcend slot:

I am scum reading Sheep mainly because of his push on the Transcend slot and PoE.

@nancy: Sheep's entire push on your slot is why you're still my strongest town read.

OK, I am going to rule out scum-scum in LUV-Nancy.

Either both town, or scum-town/town-scum.

Other 'defending' interactions from LUV that put me off scum-team combinations:

LUV defending Rauth D1:

I think him being himself has been enough so far.

it seems like you want him to purposely go out of character.

LUV ruling out scum-Vifam/Frogger:

Vifam probably isn't scum sadly.

[Keyser Söze]

Akarin has not picked up his prod. While he technically has two hours and change to do so, I have begun the replacement search.

Any update on Lil Uzi Vert too?

Time to unleash Daphne...

[Keyser Söze]

sheep is scum by meta

too

More about

this

please when you come back mate.

Your JarJar meta was spot-on earlier...

[Keyser Söze]

MBG claimed jailkeeper
RC claimed BP
Gerry was lynched as cop D1
Rauth is backup cop who has an innocent on RC

Jar Jar got lynched D2 as scum goon

I'm VT, Sheep is VT, Nancy is VT.

Other items of interest:

Rauth said he investigated Fro99er N2
MGB said he jailed Keyser N1 and Rauth N2
No NK on N2

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser was kind of acting as foil to the whole thing, critiquing both RC and gerry throughout

without really taking a stance either way.

I did make a stance.
TvT.
I think my evaluation and read of both RC's play and gerryoat's behaviour was pretty much spot on.
Shall I quote you how I got to my D1 conclusion on their interactions?

Keyser LUV is clearly never going to post anything, let's just kill him.

I honestly can barely be fucked trying anymore.

Please stop this.
We have time.
We wait.
We are in control.

Day 3 ends in (expired on 2017-03-01 19:45:00)

[Keyser Söze]

I did make a stance.

Looking back, I made a post-by-post analysis of every one of their 'emotional' interactions.
I even ruled them out as scum-partners.
Please do not miss-rep my D1 play.

[Keyser Söze]

Why would I take a side and actively push the lynch of a t/read?

That would be anti-town, illogical and down right scummy.

[Keyser Söze]

I tried to explain to RC Gerry's side of his argument.

I also tried to reason with Gerry if RC's actions were alignment indicative.

[Keyser Söze]

By not taking a stance either way I mean that I didn't really feel like you tried to stop it or argue against one or side or the other.

I disagree with your observation. I actively tried to understand their case on eachother (but supported neither scum-case).

Only Pine has the power to "stop" TvT fights.

[Keyser Söze]

I have kept a lid of my emotion this game (in-thread). Gerry shared the same frustrations and shock as me (but heightened as he was the direct recipient of the failed gambit, plus he was the Town Cop - I felt we were in the same boat - but obviously it would be ridiculous to expect me to react as defensive as Gerry as I was a neutral observer). I think hard defending your t/reads on D1 is short-sighted / tactically naive. RC and Gerry were t/reads but not town confirmed. It's only since N1 I have put my foot down very firmly on people I don't want lynched.

I will share with you what I felt about the Gerry lynch after the game. I did ask to replace out after N1 but (something happened). I am now happy to play.

[Keyser Söze]

But that's not even what your ISO of that period looks like. I mean you're commenting on dogs and shit. Seriously, do you care if gerry dies here? Doesn't seem like it to me.

D1 was only going one way at that point. Many people had given their opinion on the RC v gerry claim/reaction. This was undoubtedly the prime info lynch for D1 (I would be proved right later). Many of my reads were formed from their very interactions, and laid the foundations to D2 (in that essence his lynch was a good thing). However, I did not expect gerry to flip

Town Cop

. Where I'm from, a player must always defend themselves and roleclaim before a hammer. However, your slot's selfish anti-town play goaded Vifam to quickhammer gerry and the rest is history.

[Keyser Söze]

I think hard defending your t/reads on D1 is short-sighted / tactically naive.

I'd be interested to hear more about this. Maybe post-game?

Sneak preview:
- without a flip or investigation, I am in no position to hard defend a player based on pure reads
- I used to do this in my early games: I would scum read players for attacking my strong town reads on D1 (sometimes some of those strong town reads are scum)
- I learnt to put aside my confirmation bias on D1
- D1 is all about information, you're unlikely to figure out the scum-team, allow pressure from other players on your t/reads but be sure to state your stance on it (don't lurk and don't keep anything in)
- I must not hard defend my t/reads on D1 just because of scum-associations I think are real

[Keyser Söze]

@matt - did you answer these two questions?

Yes, I understand why you were s/reading me D2 (despite not agreeing with it).

But my concern was the discrepancy of your changed read of me.
Why were you t/leaning me D1 then?
Why didn't you jailkeep one of your two strongest t/reads (Alisae / Grendel)?

[Keyser Söze]

Today comes down to: 'Why was there no NK?'

Was it because:

A) Matt (town jailkeeper) jailed Rauth and scum targeted Rauth.

B) Scum blocked Rauth, and scum targeted RC (bulletproof)

C) Matt (town jailkeeper) blocked scum-Rauth, stopping Rauth from completing the NK



Which one do you believe?

As per my reads, I have ruled out C.

Whether Matt is the

town

jailkeeper is the game-breaker here.

My reservation to lynch my scum-read (Matt) is that if he is the Town Jailkeeper we'll lose Rauth tonight too.

Should we keep Matt alive and let scum kill in the pool of VT's/lynchbaits to help us through PoE?


On the basis of RC and Rauth being town...
As per my D1 VCA, there is at least 1 guaranteed scum in [Matt, Keyser, Sheep, ThinkBig] potentially 2 (presuming that not ALL THREE scum were present on Gerry's misslynch wagon).

I have already subconsciously ruled out scum partners in [Fro99er, LUV, Grendel, Nancy]. 1 scum or none in that list.

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Rautherdir

Why would Rautherdir as backup cop be at all confused if I claimed cop?

You didn't claim cop.

VOTE: Gerryoat

I claim an investigative with 'cop' in the name. We are lynching Gerryoat today and anyone who defends him is getting lynched tomorrow.

This is what you claimed. I wasn't sure what to think about it, as I thought was somewhat possible you were just mafia fakeclaiming.

This checks out

with Rauth's hesitation and concern at the time of the (fake) role claim on D1:

"Right now I lean towards RC being town and gerryoat being scum, but I'll read over the game again just to be sure before voting."
"That's the reason I'm reading over the game again. I don't know how to handle a claim like that, I'm trying to figure out if I should trust RC's claim or not."
"I think either you or RC is scum. I have said that before. I'd rather lynch you before RC because of RC's claim."
"As for why I think RC leans town, it's RC's claim and Gerry's reaction to it."
"It wasn't that I scum-read RC as much as I could see high motivation for scum to do what he did. Had Gerry's reaction been different I would have leaned towards RC being scum."

Rauth was obviously unsettled by RC's claim, but was ultimately happy to side with RC (against gerry's natural reaction).

[Keyser Söze]

Man like. I feel like everyone just dismissed the possibility of Rauth being scum outright and aren't really considering it fairly.

Not dismissed - a Rauth flip is not a D3 priority.
Anyone could be scum right now but we won't be lynching Rauth today:
- usually the night phase will resolve cop-claims
- if Matt does flip town jailkeeper (and with no doctor) Rauth will likely die
- we have highlighted Rauth's suspicious D1 play (but he explained it as part of a gambit to deter a NK)
- Rauth should not be today's lynch (we should lynch the players with the worst associations with JarJar)
- Rauth's info lynch (as backup cop) would only tell us that you're town (which the majority already believe)
- if there is a Mafia roleblocker, they'll likely keep Rauth alive as long as they can
- I don't think anyone has a solid t/read of Rauth's actual active contributions, exclusive of his claim.

[Keyser Söze]

@matt - did you answer these two questions?

Yes, I understand why you were s/reading me D2 (despite not agreeing with it).

But my concern was the discrepancy of your changed read of me.
Why were you t/leaning me D1 then?
Why didn't you jailkeep one of your two strongest t/reads (Alisae / Grendel)?

@MGB

Tell me why you were t/leaning me D1.

Tell me why you didn't jail your two strongest t/reads.

[Keyser Söze]

I think MGB is back to L-2 after RC's unvote.



How common are motion sensors in games involving jailkeeper/cop/back-up cop/bulletproof?
Are motion sensors more often town aligned than scum aligned?

[Keyser Söze]

*Motion Detector

[Keyser Söze]

Nice to see the mass claim. In other news, I was right

"Tell your self, you were right.

You were right...

"

What do you think of LUV's Motion Detector claim?

As per your lynch-pool comment:

I have my lynch pool as Grendel, LUV, and Nancy in no particular order I can describe.

but can see how Matt could do what he said he did as town - it's basically my reason the the abrupt massclaim demand, if we get no other PR claims then I think Matt is actually not a lynch I support today, if we get even one other then I'd vote park him until he was lynched.

Thus, did LUV=town PR make you realise MGB=scum?

[Keyser Söze]

[

Yes, I'm a VT - I didn't formally confirm earlier, but implied it.

]

We should update the list of claims for reference.

Yes, your move to MGB makes sense now -
to confirm, in terms of scumminess, your view is:

MGB-PR claim > LUV-PR claim > Grendel-VT claim > Nancy-VT claim?

[Keyser Söze]

JarJarDrinks' changing read on MGB at the end of D2 - scum distancing or fake scum distancing?

[Quotes all in chronological order]

JarJarDrinks doesn't want to lynch MGB:

"Terrible reads. Vifam is the only person in this list that I'd consider lynching today."

JarJarDrinks liked the defense MGB gave for himself:

"Because matt gave a good explanation for what I thought was scummy."

JarJarDrinks thinks MGB is scum (with fro99er and nancy):

"Yeah matt's probably the last scum. It looks like frog is trying to do exactly what nancy did."

JarJarDrinks is suspecting a Fro99er-MGB scum team:

"You say Matt is scum because of associations w/ me. Then when I flip green, you can abandon that read."

JarJarDrinks not completely sold on scum-MGB:

"It's not as transparent as nancys was though. I'm not totally sure about Matt. But I'm damn sure about you and nancy."

JarJarDrinks is saying fro99er has bussed MGB:

"He's nervous that I called out his bus."

JarJarDrinks lists his scum reads. His strongest scum read is now MGB:

"Last scum is in mattblackguy/Lil Uzi Vert/Akarin/Grendel. My main pick right now is Matt though frog is making me start to doubt they're on the same team. Will dig these guys more."

JarJarDrinks has now ditched his fro99er-MGB scum team theory:

"I do think frog/matt scumteam is impossible now. Why would scumfrog derail a wagon on me to push a wagon on scummatt?"



- JarJar flip-flopping on MGB at the end of D2 looks suspicious.
- JarJar was happy to push hard on both Nancy and fro99er too.
- his scum reads of "mattblackguy/Lil Uzi Vert/Akarin/Grendel" is guaranteed to have at least one scum in it (as per typical scum-distancing death-bed play).

[Keyser Söze]

What's your boggle exactly?

In short:

You must really love/trust LUV's PR claim, to put him as

least-likely-to-be-scum

over MGB, Grendel and Nancy. Correct?

[Keyser Söze]

JarJarDrinks lists his scum reads. His strongest scum read is now MGB:

"Last scum is in mattblackguy/Lil Uzi Vert/Akarin/Grendel. My main pick right now is Matt though frog is making me start to doubt they're on the same team. Will dig these guys more."

Correction: "Last scum", not scum-reads.

[Keyser Söze]

6 days

UNVOTE: MGB

[Keyser Söze]

Thanks Sheep, that is very clear now.

[Keyser Söze]

The problem is that scum can opt to no kill and leave us in the same position we're in now.

Do you think scum wouldn't target any of the town PR's?

[Keyser Söze]

Do you think 'scum' believe your investigative power is a threat?

[Keyser Söze]

MBG is the obvious scum RC. It's either that or the meta has changed where town just gets a whole bunch of PRs.

Please tell me more about this.

"Obvious scum" via meta analysis.

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser, you're asking questions that I think you know I don't have the answer too.

It's a simple question. It's not a trick question.

E.g if I was an investigative PR, I know scum would not want me in the picture as I could confirm player movements.

Moreover, if I was in the shoes of scum I wouldn't want any PR alive who can investigate an innocent/guilty on players, a player who can jail both town and scum, nor a player who can confirm whether there was movement on a VT/passive PR player.

Now tell me, do you think scum would choose to keep all those PR's alive?

[Keyser Söze]

MBG is the obvious scum RC. It's either that or the meta has changed where town just gets a whole bunch of PRs.

Please tell me more about this.

"Obvious scum" via meta analysis.

I've never played with Matt prior to this. I find him obvious scum for the reasons I stated before and because I don't buy his jail keeper claim.

Sorry I misunderstood that, yes SITE meta. I read it as Matt-meta at first.

[Keyser Söze]

Thanks fro99er, I see that now (I miss-read the "meta" comment).

[Keyser Söze]

@MGB

@matt - did you answer these two questions?

Yes, I understand why you were s/reading me D2 (despite not agreeing with it).

But my concern was the discrepancy of your changed read of me.
Why were you t/leaning me D1 then?
Why didn't you jailkeep one of your two strongest t/reads (Alisae / Grendel)?

@MGB

Tell me why you were t/leaning me D1.

Tell me why you didn't jail your two strongest t/reads.

[Keyser Söze]

@Keyser, End of day 1 you were a townlean for me. I didn't read over your ISO more until after Vifam said you were a strong townread. And when I said you could be scum because you didn't try to counter Gerry wagon by creating a wagon of one of your scumreads (after the Grendel wagon collapsed), it was what I was honestly thinking at the time.

So you read my ISO in under 13 minutes?




After Vifam called me a strong town read you made this comment JUST after:

Why is Keyser a strong townread? I can see him as scum.

You're going to have to explain the time scale of when I went from town to scum.

From 'I'm gonna jail my town read tonight' to 'what a scummy bastard'.

[Keyser Söze]

Oh, Matt's avoiding the question from keyser, who is a town read of Matt's

I'm shocked.

I'm not going to re-quote it again, promise.

I'll likely just lose patience and re-vote him.

[Keyser Söze]

Please answer the question

The majority want you dead.

Play the game, not the players.

If I'm an idiot for not t/reading you, tell me why.

[Keyser Söze]

[Keyser Söze]

Do you think people doubting your PR claim are bad-town or scum?

Do you think town or scum are more likely to push a no lynch today?

Do you think their paranoia given all the PR claims is irrational?

Can you see how people could doubt the reasons why you chose to jail me N1?



I am trying to see your perspective.

[Keyser Söze]

Did Akarin bus/out her team on D2 then?:
(I.e scum theatre tunnel gone wrong)
I read it in Akarin's favour when I first read it.

Spoiler:

What if it's a

Jar Jar, Matt

, Frogger scumteam?

Been re-reading your D2 ISO.

If mattblackguy is scum, this is the moment where Akarin absolutely sewed up the JarJarDrinks-mattblackguy scum connection:

It doesn't really make sense that his first reaction to Gerrys flip is that RC was reaction testing. Like shouldn't he have considered that RC was scum that got caught fakeclaiming? Especially considering that he soon starting pushing RC-scum soon after.

RC scum still makes more sense. But Town RC/Town Matt makes no sense.

What does this even mean? You're scumreading RC, but if RC is town, Matt is definitely scum, even though you're townreading Matt? And you have a problem with Transcend suspecting scum Matt but town RC, but your argument here is basically an argument for scum Matt, town RC?

Why should Town RC imply scum Matt?

Question JJD: if you can conceive of either of our slots being town and the either scum, then why can't you conceive of both of our slots being town?

Like if either one of our interactions could have been TvS there's no reason why they couldn't have both been and the whole situation being TvT.

I mean I don't think it's impossible for you both to be town. I just think it's ridiculous that transcend can rule BOTH of you out as scum.

That's not the argument you made though.

So why is that a ridiculous read from Transcend?

The statement from Matt is scummy regardless. I've already said that the statement could come from scum matt even if RC is scum as well. But it makes way more sense for scum matt to make it about town RC.

And as I said later, It's not impossible for for them both to be town. My statement was directed @ trans and how terrible it was for him to be townreading the both of them.

Yeah, I can see why Matt's post is scummy, but that's not what I'm asking. You said later they could both be town. But exactly as you just said, you think it was terrible for Transcend to be townreading both of them. Which means you think that if RC is town, Matt should be more likely than average to be scum.

But nothing you've said explains that. Why do you think that?

Akarin

- slight scumlean. I feel like a lot of her questions directed @ me are designed to get me to scumread Matt and/or townread RC. Agree w/ her vif and rauth reads though.

I wasn't trying to get you to scumread Matt. I was pointing out that your reasoning doesn't make sense. You basically logic yourself into having a scumread on Matt, but then don't actually have one, and now are scumreading me for "trying to get you to have a scumread on Matt."

I'm pointing out that by your logic, you already

should

have a scumread on Matt, but you don't, you think Matt is town and RC is scum. And regardless of Matt, who honestly I'm not sure how I feel about,

that

is scummy.

It's not real logic, it's convenient reads and then logic made up to support them.

Akarin is already a t/lean, but if Matt flips red, Akarin just won the internet.

Even if Matt flips town, Akarin has still won town points for her logical argument versus JarJar.

Akarin: would not lynch today

.

[Keyser Söze]

I've been waiting 4 days and 2 hours for MGB to answer my two simple questions...

By refusing to answer them, I can only presume A) he's doesn't have a town WINCON or B) he's working against his town WINCON.

Either way, he's fucked now.

[Keyser Söze]

If Rauth is telling the truth then it narrows the game down a lot, and that means:
RC Town
Rauth Town
Grendel Town
Nancy Town
Akarin Town

Meaning the 3 scum are in:
LUV
Vifam
Keyser
JarJar
Sheep

Please can you explain to me why Rauth's roleclaim meant Grendel, Nancy and Akarin were town?

...and the 3 scum HAD to be in the bottom list of 5 players.

[Keyser Söze]

5 days.

[Keyser Söze]

MGB, are you waiting to die?

[Keyser Söze]

Either 1) you're scum and defeated or 2) you're town and likely the NK


I.e You should be more open and animated at this point, helping other townies to see your perspective.

[Keyser Söze]

Thanks for replying MGB

Will read today.

[Keyser Söze]

@Keyser, So I decided I'll answer your questions

But my concern was the discrepancy of your changed read of me.
Why were you t/leaning me D1 then?
Why didn't you jailkeep one of your two strongest t/reads (Alisae / Grendel)?

You were asking questions that made me think you were trying to sort others, and didn't see anything scummy from you. If I think someone is putting in a genuine effort to sort others, and scumhunt I usually townread them unless I see something that pings me as scummy.

This is an easy/generic reason to town lean someone but I accept it.

I thought you had a greater chance of eating the nightkill seeing as you were widely townread by almost everyone, and you seemed like a decent player that scum would want to kill off early.

Hmm... so you put the general opinion of others over your own strongest t/reads... in a previous game as a cop, I chose to investigate the player who was being s/read by the most people (not necessarily my own strongest s/read)... thus, I could see why town-you jailed me.

Do you think people doubting your PR claim are bad-town or scum?

Do you think town or scum are more likely to push a no lynch today?

Do you think their paranoia given all the PR claims is irrational?

Can you see how people could doubt the reasons why you chose to jail me N1?

(1) Both obviously. Scum definitely would benefit a lot from me being lynched with how strong my role is right now. If I can stop one more kill it will buy us an extra mislynch which scum definitely don't want.
(2) Idk, but no lynching is definitely better than mislynching me today. Lynching in VT is preferable to both though. If we can nail the scum in VT then we basically win the game, but if we don't it still narrows down the game a lot if we lynch the right person. There's a good chance we can sort out the PR claims tomorrow depending on the night actions.
(3) No...
(4) I'm not going to lie about who I jailed night 1. I knew saying I jailed you night 1 would make people more suspicious of me, but it's what I did. I'm not going to start lying and say I jailed someone else when I didn't. If I was scum lying about my role don't you think it makes more sense for me to lie and say I jailed Grendel? I townread Grendel for mostly the entirety of the game, and no one would be suspicious of me choosing Grendel.

Hmm, yes, WIFOM says scum-you would have just picked your strongest t/read and not me. However, my confusion (or suspicion) is the TIMING of when you started to scum read me. Was it at the start of D2, during your re-read during D1, during a re-read of my ISO D2? It looked to me like you came into D2 scum reading me, so saying you jailed me for being strong-townie was a contradiction. I suspected this contradiction was a SCUM-SLIP. You still need to put down in writing the timescale of your changing read of me.

Please can you explain to me why Rauth's roleclaim meant Grendel, Nancy and Akarin were town?

...and the 3 scum HAD to be in the bottom list of 5 players.

I was townreading those 3 independent of Rauth. I didn't say they HAD to be in the bottom list. Everything I say is my opinion. Stop reading everything I say like I'm trying to pass off everything as facts, because I'm not. Those bottom were the list of people I wasn't townreading. Now I know you didn't care about any of my answers, which is why I didn't care about answering them in the first place, but just so you don't get continue to be cranky I answered them for you. I want to see if anyone is reading my posts. If you read this far say cheese in your next post. Here I'll give you some good questions.

Cheese.

(1) If you think I'm scum then who do you think my partner is? You already said you don't think Akarin(ThinkBig), and Sheep are scum. Then who else is there?

I'd prefer to take on one player at a time via their associations with JarJar. I had you and LUV as the prime candidates going into D3. Since then, other players have presented scum-cases via Sheep and ThingBig via your scum-flip. Thus, you can understand how your flip would provide some information. Other players, have ruled out 5 town PR's - thus, many people (including me) don't think ALL the PR's can be town (MGB, Rauth, RC, LUV)

(2) Since you think I'm scum and want to lynch me you must be pretty sure that scum attacked RC, and that I wasn't the reason for the No Kill. Why do you think scum would attack RC when he already claimed Bulletproof. They can't kill him so what was the purpose of that? It makes 0 sense to me that people actually think this was the most probable reason for the No Kill. Seriously me jailing Rauth, and either protecting Rauth from the kill or preventing Rauth from making the kill makes a lot more sense. But it seems it's easier for people to ignore the facts and just say I'm scum.

They could have WIFOM'd themselves out of thinking RC was being truthful. Scum may have thought RC was 1-shot bulletproof. That is the main reason for going for a NO LYNCH/not lynching you today though: your supposed jailing of Rauth explains the no NK - Rauth was the obvious night target for scum.

[Keyser Söze]

Hey Keyser, feel up for a little setup spec? I've been doing a ton of reading in wiki and forums and the more I read the more plausible it becomes to me that none of these PR claims are faked. 2 goons + JOAT with daychat feels kind of possible here against our claimed PRs. Thoughts? Both scum in VTs?

I'm not experienced enough to know regarding MS set-ups.
I think RC has already strongly suggested it wouldn't have passed for balance.
However, I am getting increasingly hesitant to lynch the claimed-jailkeeper now.

[Keyser Söze]

Ah ok - on my homesite, a 50:50 Town PR/town VT split would be countered by a strong scum team for balance. We've seen 1 goon flip, I'd presume two powerful scum PR's to accompany it.

(...or powers to weaken the cops. We now know a godfather is impossible, so a scum-roleblocker is the obvious choice, or scum rolecop/JOAT like you said)

Right now, on paper, we look too powerful.

[Keyser Söze]

MGB, for the sake of my sanity and satisfaction, please could you answer this final concern of mine:

Hmm, yes, WIFOM says scum-you would have just picked your strongest t/read and not me. However, my confusion (or suspicion) is the TIMING of when you started to scum read me. Was it at the start of D2, during your re-read during D1, during a re-read of my ISO D2? It looked to me like you came into D2 scum reading me, so saying you jailed me for being strong-townie was a contradiction. I suspected this contradiction was a SCUM-SLIP.

You still need to put down in writing the timescale of your changing read of me

.

[Keyser Söze]

Cop, Backup Cop, Bulletproof Townie, Town Jailkeeper, Motion Detector + 5 VT's

Is this possible on mafiascum?

[Keyser Söze]

If we no lynch, then scum NK a VT, and the 5 claimed PRs are all still alive tomorrow - what would you have learned?

[Keyser Söze]

Ok, if we can afford 'misslynches', we lynch in the VT pool. Obviously to break this game we will need to make a big step today (and this obviously puts my name in the line of potential VT lynches).

The night phase

should

surely resolve the remaining 4 claimed PRs, or at least give us some information on if they think the claimed PR's are a threat.

I agree that on paper the no NK can be best explained as someone protecting the backup cop - this is the obvious conclusion.

Thus, it will be too much of a gamble to lynch the claimed town jailkeeper TODAY.



Side question: Pine called this game the Death Trap (he wanted to put us through pain for his own pleasure) - perhaps all this WIFOM was his design.



The evil bastard

[Keyser Söze]

Let's get out our VT's down from 7... (1 already flipped)

[Keyser Söze]

@Rauth, why do u refuse to do anything today?

@MGB

Please tell me the timescale of your changing read of me.

[Keyser Söze]

Not a "bad player" mate.
I just thought your two reads contradicted the decisions you made N1/D2.
I flagged this as suspicious.
I still don't think you fully grasp what I am asking for.
Nevertheless, I will unlikely be voting you today, because sometimes the obvious answer is the correct answer: 'the no night kill was likely down to you'

[Keyser Söze]

I'm all ears. I am stuck on

'most informative'

vs

'best pro-town'

play.

[Keyser Söze]

The power role claims and set-up spec have made me lose all belief in my reads.

[Keyser Söze]

Is Day 3 really the day when we try to break the game and lynch the claimed backup cop?

[Keyser Söze]

Rauth, do you have anything to share...

[Keyser Söze]

So the narrative we're going with is that the town jailkeeper role blocked the scum from making the night kill...?


I want to re-read JarJar-Rauth interactions one more time...

[Keyser Söze]

[Keyser Söze]

RC was right.
Pro town play shon through in the end.

[Keyser Söze]

Two scum factions?

Only one NK so far though?

[Keyser Söze]

SK?

MGB did jail me N1?

[Keyser Söze]

Share your reads Rauth x

[Keyser Söze]

fro99er...

Is MGB scum?

You said either him or me MUST be scum.

[Keyser Söze]

Let's wait for the flip.

It's been a fun game

[Keyser Söze]

Scum is in my town reads.

Everyone should be reset now for D4.

[Keyser Söze]

Well played town - you reasoned out the last lynch very well. In the dead thread we feared that no kill would cause a few melt downs but you stayed firm in the end.

Hope to play with you guys again - thanks to Pine too, great effort with the flavor.