Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

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Morning

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I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.

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I am not sure i understand what you mean, but if i understood correctly that doesn't make any sense. :p
So i am prolly not.

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Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

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Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

What do you think of that post?

Answering to that right now would totally make my question to Rels useless now would it?

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Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Because i don't feel like i need to ask you about it. From what i remember playing with you you will make your alignment clear to me before D1 ends even if i didn't prod you in any way. There is also a Rels-specific reason i am not willing to discuss yet.

But while you're at it, care to elaborate on this; This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.

So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.

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No it is not an alt. I know hapahauli and Rels from another forum.

outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?

Yes.

So many boring players there.

What do you mean by this?

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What does being boring equal here?

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[quote="In post 11, [...]
The MooginSoosy post is pretty obviously not serious, so this post inclines me to think outoforder is overeager town if newbie. If alt, maybe not.
[...]

I think, if you are town, you should probably stop leaping into conclusions since you have no possible way of knowing what i think of the post in the first place.
I mean, because in your opinion i should not assume the post was serious that means if i am an experienced player i must be mafia, right? Well fyi i have not said what i think of the post in the first place so your conclusion is invalid.

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[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum
Ah, but you did see something you thought was AI there or you wouldn't have asked, and since you asked without saying what you thought, I'm willing to bet it was scum-indicative.

You will get an answer to that if you jsut can wait until Rels answers to me.
To elaborate a little bit further; there is a reason Rels has somewhat earned a nickname, let's call it "mini-outoforder" here, since we both as town think a looot alike regarding certain situations and posts. My question is directed to Rels for a reason that i am trying to get a read on him. For now it's irrelevant what i do think of the post in question and i'd like people to drop it since it's pretty clear to me that you all - if you cling on that - are talking about something you cannot make a decision on in the end since you don't have all the facts. And as i said, i'll elaborate fully on it after i hear from Rels.

Is that fine?

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[quote="In post 45
Also, what does alignment have to do with leaping to conclusions? I like leaping to conclusions. Are you trying to scare me off with threats of scumreading me?

It does in a sense that a lot of mislynches happen because of all the information not being on the table and people making hasty judgements. People not being able to answer the accusations etc.. I'd rather have none of it this game. Also it clutters up the thread with nonsense (imagine people talking about how for example person X owning a blue car makes him scum because blue is a scummy color when X has in fact said "i own a car"). And i don't scumread you.

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You asking Rels that question is reasonable. Your insistence that I back off is weird. Would you be opposed to me following up after Rels has answered?

ofc not lol. I am not even asking you to "back off". I am telling you you cannot get any more information about the matter right now so you might want to focus on something else in the meanwhile. When you hear my explanation you can decide if it makes sense or not and then make your decision. As i said, if you are town, right now this matter does not get you anywhere. I am not trying to "flush you off me", i am trying to tell you what you were doing doesn't help the town right now.

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I think you lack a lot of reading comprehension.

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idk, you can call it that if you want to. Doesn't change the fact you do that, though.

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I mean for example Creature has nothing to do with the "clusterfuck" you are describing (which btw was not even "caused" by any of us three).... Sadly you are probably town.

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doomfeathers does anything else stick out to you other than me atm?

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And you don't get to vote for me and then not explain it at all. ^^

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RVS is the meta here. You should join me in voting scum though.

How do you draw the conclusion that KidAmn was town from all that?

Is there a way to see what games you have played here? Secondly, you totally did not vote "randomly". My first post addressed to you still stands, saying "RVS" doesn't really explain anything since your vote was 100% not RVS (as i did explain in my post).

KidAmn is being suicidal. That's a really bad trait for mafia 1/30 of a dayphase into the game. Sure you can do that if you are a bad player and mafia, but it is more likely he'd choose a different approach to the game as a whole as scum imo. Like it's quite clear he hasn't actually quite read any of the posts because otherwise he wouldnt make those arguments in the first place. I think the most likely scenario is he just thinks there "is nothing to read for reals" and he is just throwing shit into something to provoke a reaction or some other shit (what people tend to do - games don't "start" this quickly on many forums, people shitpost the first couple of days especially with 2 weeks day phases).

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doomfeathers does anything else stick out to you other than me atm?

If hapahauli thought you were scum, and knew you don't respond to pressure as scum, why would he pressure you? By your logic, you should be scumreading him.

Right. I also have 14 irl days to make a decision. Right now (as per my last post) his explanation is not satisfying at all.

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I mean, doomfeathers, i am going to vote when i am sure of my case. I don't think i am going to be sure by that post alone and even if i was i am not going to present a case unless i can be confident i can convince other people of it.

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Since when does two enthusiastic posts make someone lean town? Town's gonna have a bad time if the bar for innocence is this low.

KidAmn calls the whole thing between myself, OoO, and Creature town. This makes very little sense first of all, since at that point I had posted once, and Creature wasn't interacting much with OoO at all. It was you (doomfeather) and OoO that were doing most of the talking.

Despite calling the whole argument "not productive" and "confusing", he jumps right into it and accuses OoO of backpedalling.

It does not follow that you can call a conversation not productive/confusing, and accuse someone of backpedalling on the basis of that very conversation.

Since when does not reading properly equal scum? And since when (when knowing someone does not read properly) does him accusing me of backpedalling equal scum? Like it's pretty clear he has no idea what he is talking about, you disagreeing with my town read on him would be fine but scumreading him???

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What more of an explanation is there? I looked at the thread, saw a few votes on you, and thought "lel imma gonna vote him."

Alright, and i am gonna say knowing you it's more likely it comes from mafia!hapahauli than town one.
I gotta read some stuff though, and now i gotta sleep for a couple of hours before work, so that's for tomorrow.

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This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

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Alrighty.

So the first meaningful post i made this game was this post:

I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.

I often write posts where my intention is to challenge people to read between the lines and think about why people say what they do rather than what do they say, because i find that important. In this post i was trying to heavily imply that i don't believe RVS is the best way to start the game, nor will i participate. If that is the conclusion one gets from my post, they should automatically assume that they literally gather nothing from voting for me, since (truthfully) i will not feel pressured even if i was mafia, i won't give away my alignment if i am mafia because of some random nonsense votes on me. I obviously understand this is not something like "if you vote for me after that you're scum", not at all, but it STILL gives me information about how people read posts and what do they focus on when reading. In other words, i know what to expect from them in future.

Therefore when MooginSoosy votes for me my initial impression is "wow, she definitely did not think about what she just read at all". Obviously she was joking, that's a no-brainer for anyone with any brain, but her post has literally no way of achieving anything at all. Especially when she doesn't know me, and how i play. What if i am a super newbie townie who gets scared of votes on me? What if i get angry because of dumb votes on me? Like even if you "randomly" vote for someone the vote might provoke a "wrong" reaction and a lot of early game reads for you guys who play here - i think - still come from the reactions to the votes, correct?

So what i do conclude, regarding MooginSoosy (and to havingfitz too), is that if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying. Or they are mafia, who just like to make people possibly annoyed so they can call them out for that later on. Or for some reason they think it's funny to just fuck around and not pay attention to why people write what they do. Now i didn't expect Rels to 100% pick this up, but IF he does pick this up, he is most likely going to be town in this game since his scumgame (while being quite good), lacks "going into depths of posts", and it's impossible to emulate a townie trait like that as mafia since you are playing from a completely different mindset. That's why i painted actually a possibly very telling question into something that looks like very casual. The reason i directed the question to Rels specifically is because he is the ONLY person in the game whose answer, whatever the answer is, might actually tell me something about his alignment. He thinks very alike me when he is town so there is like no way anyone else would have picked up on that. Also based on the above, and knowing Rels

could assume

(if mafia), that i will need a specific answer from him it boilds down to this:
1) If Rels has put his head 110% into the game and sees what i just explained, i can safely conclude that he is town
2) If Rels makes up some bullshit "this post probably means that", he is probably scum
3) If Rels gives the not-so-in-depth answer of "she was just probably joking", i don't learn anything about his alignment. Which is what happened.

----

Now next thing up is KidAm. I honestly believed that writing this:

Answering to that right now would totally make my question to Rels useless now would it?

..to Kop would actually make you people realize i will give you an explanation when i have heard Rels' answer, and then, if someone has something they wanna say about it they do follow up. I didn't think people would actually think like a lot of people apparently do in this game. If i ask someone "What do you think of X", what's the point of telling them (or everyone) what i expect to be a townie answer and/or what do i expect to be a scummy answer? That's just straight up dumb because imagine i am actually poking a mafia and say "Hey, tell me what do you think of X? If you are town you will say Y and if mafia, you'll say Z". What's the point of giving the answers you (will) find townie before the other dude has answered?!?! I never ever backpedalled from anything, nor did i invent any mini-game, other people did that. I have NEVER said "don't ever talk about this" - the only thing i constantly told doomsfeather is that i wanna hear from Rels first and then he can make a decision if i make sense or not. I wasn't refusing to give answers, i was saying i will delay my answer for the reason in the quote above. Somehow this KidAm dude cannot process that. Instead he makes conclusions from my posts, conclusions that make absolutely no sense since i never did anything even close to what he is telling i did. I kinda hate that, just like i hate many people yelling "OMGUS" when someone votes for a person who made a terribly scummy case on them and explains why the case is scummy. Sometimes it feels like some people think "whenever two people vote for each other the second vote is OMGUS by definition" which is horribly wrong, just as wrong as saying i somehow backpedalled from something since i never did such a thing.

Anyways i believe he is town. I fully understand people don't necessarily share the sentiment, and definitely don't share my reasoning (since you don't know if i am town or not). If KidAm was mafia he would have to know i am town - therefore he would also have to know i am telling the truth about what i am saying. Therefore he would know his "backpedalling" argument doesn't make any sense. I don't believe he would argue so strongly for it as mafia -- especially since it has been pointed out by three different people that he is wrong. It seems like he just actually believes in his argument and for some reason cannot understand the posts i (and apparently other people aswell?) write.

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I also have a town lean on Aubrey, for his psot #117 and the comment + vote on Havingfitz, since i share the same thought about his play. Town lean on doomsfeather, for being actually level-headed (i know this is not necessarly always a town trait), because in the argument we were in, it would have been easy for him to just push it forward as mafia since the thread sentiment was following the thought he was originally pushing. It would have been like a win-win scenario, noone is gonna call you out on it and at worst you just waste town's time on talking about something dumb. I also think Rels has made a couple of smart posts, regarding hapahauli in #109 and pushing Creature to play. It doesn't really seem like he is hard-reading him scum.

Basically everyone else is a complete non-entity. Except for Havingfitz who i have a slight scumlean on for reasons Aubrey outlined, and Hapahauli who i honestly think is mafia.

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Here is the reasoning. I already talked about this here:

This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.

So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.

I never did get any answer other than "just for the lulz". I don't believe hapahauli votes (especially votes for ME) just for the lulz. If he is town it's just unproductive and he knows that. I literally just don't believe his explanation, because it doesn't make any sense, and for a highly rational player - who is actually very good as town in this game - it indicates mafia. Furthermore the explanation does not line up with what he was posting earlier.

Another thing is his KidAm read. Now look at this post:

[...]
That being said...

2nd is simply untrue again - as I explained before, the issue wasn't the conversation itself, but the refusal to discuss further with anyone else until the conversation happened, and the issue of backpedalling was that Ooo told DF to back off, then went back in #53 and tried to explain how he wasn't really telling him to back off

This makes sense.

UNVOTE:

Okay so, hapahauli retracts from his scumread on KidAm. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong in it. The problem lays in what he

leaves unsaid.

Now if hapahauli thinks KidAm is making sense he also MUST think that:
1) my refusal to discuss further with anyone else until the conversation happened is scummy / doesn't logically make sense
2) i backpedalled from something

If those two things are not true, there is no reason for hapahauli to retract from his KidAm scumread. Furthermore, if those things ARE true (in his mind), that should also ALWAYS make me mafia in his mind (because yes - if things KidAm lays out here are true, i am 100% mafia - and hapahauli very well knows that).

It doesn't make any sense for him to back off from a scumread in that manner and not follow it up with a vote on me, since logically he should consider me mafia if he is not lying about the "this makes sense" -part.

VOTE: Hapahauli

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Oh doomsfeather, i don't believe discussing arm-up strategy will achieve anything because it's all wifom in the first place. You can't break the setup here since it would require giving away information publically (about arming), and in this case giving away information helps noone other than scum.

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Even if we decide to all arm at the same night to prevent scum from killing, it's still scumsided. So better arm when you feel like.

basically this is 100% correct.

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Aubrey could you clarify a bit what you mean here.
You said:

I flip flop in trying to place Hapahauli.

I liked he was pushing KidAmn, and questioning why people townread him

,

but I wasn't exactly swayed by his reasons for scumreading KidAmn either.

I think that is why I was having those pings earlier at a glance.

I don't understand how the green and red part fit together. Like if the "i liked he was pushing KidAm" part exists, how can "I wasn't exactly swayed by his reasons either" exist. For me it looks like it should be either one or another?

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shit i accidently clicked post.

What i mean is i understand the flip-flop since it makes sense as you said you are flip-flopping on him, what i don't understand is if you point this out, what's the point if you can't come to a conclusion?

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@ OoO

Regarding my "RVS" vote:
I absolutely would vote "for the lulz" for you. This is not TL - there are different expectations for voting, especially early on. Dropping a random vote is something I've seen so often here, that it feels natural to do so. You're right that there's no way I'd do it on TL as either alignment.

Regarding "the makes sense" comment:
I'm saying that KidAmn's story makes sense, and therefore I have no reason to continue voting him. His explanation for how he is tunneling you for separate reasons makes sense - not necessarily his read on you itself. A lot of cases I make on mafia are based on thought-process - whether the story someone is telling is inconsistent or contradictory. So here, I'm dealing entirely with KidAmn's thought process (which he showed wasn't contradictory). That has very little to do with the validity of his scumread on you. You're not a player I can generally read until later in the game anyway.

(1) Why? Why would you ever do that? Why would you "feel the need to feel natural" for something you don't feel comfortable with? I couldn't confirm this (if you actually do that - or if you are telling the truth here) in any way since all the games lately (in past 2 yrs) you have played here were games where you replaced in later on in the game. What do "different expectations" matter when you are dealing with a person who doesn't give any fucks about these "different expectations"?

(2) But you were voting for him because his story was inconsistent in the first place, no? His story hasn't changed so how it suddenly became consistent?

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This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

Well are you voting for a person you actually think is mafia? If you are, forgive me but remind me of your case since i can't remember any. Voting for someone without thinking they actually are scum does not amke any sense now does it?

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Aubrey do you tend to proof-read your posts before submitting them?

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[quote="In post 129,
As far as expectations go, the vote isn't for your expectations. It's to try to create something in the thread worth reacting to. So me running up an "early game wagon" on you has a higher chance of provoking someone to post/comment on it than me dropping a vote on any other person.

I have a problem with this (i have still yet to look the second part of your post - but i am gonna put this up here first since i gotta go for half an hour). If this is what you thought, why didn't you say it in the first place, since imo this != "i voted you for the lulz" which was your response when i called you out on your vote? Like rn in my opinion you have said:
1) I voted for ooo because for the lulz
2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people
3) I voted for ooo because i participate on RVS (well this could technically be same as (1) too)

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I mean, which is it? I don't believe you thought all those three things at the same time, ESPECIALLY since your initial post doesnt really go along with nay of thsoe three answers. And whichever it is, what's the reason for not saying all of it in the first place?

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Spoiler: Response to post 118

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum
I would tend to disagree. If you're not used to RVS, you're more likely to have a strong reaction to votes, right?

I am "used to" RVS, i just don't think it is necessary since what becomes out of it is more likely to go shit than to go right. Which is why i try to start the game my way instead.

If you're going to dislike people who put RVS votes on people they don't know, you're going to have a bad time.

I am not. The thing i was trying to say is that when you have - let's say normally - RVS that lasts like this:
|---------------------->| when someone breaks it at;
|-------X-------------->| X spot, after that you would start to give out real reads, right? Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.

There were about five of us who voted you at the beginning. Why just MooginSoosy and havingfitz? I myself just unvoted you because I saw how many votes you already had.

Because Fredrick E Campbell posted a pure RVS vote. I can't make anything out of it.
You had actual reasons to think i am mafia (regardless of if the reasons are right/wrong/good/bad). Your vote wasn't really RVS, right?
MooginSoosy, havingfitz and hapahauli posted something i could actually process on. I have given my thought process on these people, as i have on you.

Now I'm confused. If Rels is the only one who would have picked up on that, why are you irritated with other people for not picking up on that?

I was saying the (expected) ANSWER was something i think only Rels could have picked up, not the motivation of my post in the first place.

TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand this since i am not casing either of them, at least regarding their votes. If i was i would clearly point that out.

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Aubrey do you tend to proof-read your posts before submitting them?

If you're being a lil butt, I'll politely ignore it for now.

To answer your question. No. Not when I'm town. I tend to just blast out whatever I'm thinking and move on.

okay thanks.

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This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

^

Okay, if i was to believe this is true, why didn't you say "2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people" in the second place?

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I'd also like to have Creature to give some sort of a real opinion on something. Every other of you players, would you say this game is boring or that many players are boring? I am going to bet not a lot of games here go to a stage where you have actual reads and thought processes by page 2 here. Correct me if i am wrong here, but i don't really get the "boring" statements based purely on that.

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Ooooohhhh i truly like this Aubrey dude's way of thinking. ^^

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[quote="In post 144,
Because describing a feeling is difficult.

You're working under an assumption that I thought through the RVS vote when I posted it. There wasn't much thought. It just felt right. And I'm just going to sound incoherent when I'm trying to describe what my gut was telling me to do in a situation. It wasn't until after you started questioning me on it that I spent any time thinking about what my gut feelz were.

Okay, i am trying to be as clear as i can here. My problem is that you first said your vote is for lulz. When you got called out of that - with reasoning that your original post where you voted for me doesn't really go along with the explanation, you give another explanation. When i ask you why didn't you give the second explanation in the first - or even in the second - place, you go back to the first explanation.

I mean, you did something for a reason. No matter how smart/dumb the reason is, for me it seems like when i ask you for the reason, you go from reason A to reason B from time to time.

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Rela, Didnt you think I was mafia in our last game until hours before the D1 lynch?

Yep. And you were scummy until that time. You even gave a emotional explanation to your lacklusterness when I was pressuring you, you hadn't played in a long time, etc.

oh man, no he wasn't.

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Rels tell me something about something that does not involve hapa, KidAmn or havingfitz?

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Why don't you powertown with SlySly instead?
Okay joking aside, i agree we are all most likely town. So far i have no objections to this. ^^

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UNVOTE: Hapahauli
Shit i have to reconsider this.

[outoforder]

As town, I just post and worry about the consequences later. It's not always going to be consistent on the surface, because a lot of it is feelz, and it often moves too fast for me to justify every little thing I do.

Yes i had totally forgot about this. But when Rels brought up the game that ultimately brought me to this game i went back and read it again. That is true.
I am not entirely sure of you being town yet, but bugging you about something i feel like isn't gonna lead me anywhere is not productive rn. I mean if i continuously ask you for explanations you're not gonna be productive in case i am wrong. So please do your thing, we can discuss if you're scum or not later (for once, god bless two weeks dayphases:) ).

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So far Aubrey looks more likely scum.

hapahauli can be scum too.

Can you elaborate on why you think Aubrey is mafia?
And why do you think doomfeathers is town?

[outoforder]

Aubrey looks like low-hanging scum. And he isn't low-hanging as town.

What do you mean?
And please don't just explain what low and hanging means...

[outoforder]

Oh, is that a thing for him? I mean at least me, hapa and Rels are used to 48hr dayphases so it's understandable we would post more than others. So you're saying as town he is super productive and as mafia he lacks it?

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Can anyone tell me a scumgame of Aubrey's?

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...point out to a scumgame of his, w/e

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no. not mafia. blame me if i am wrong but not mafia in this game.

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Aubrey's mindset seems totally different as mafia than here. Also he jumps on same sort of things he isn't jumping on here. Granted, i haven't seen a town game of his so point me out to one and i will rejudge.

[outoforder]

Creature is probably toen too. And someone..umm yes, it was Kop. But now i am confused since two of my top scumreads call him possibly mafia. I fidnt have much time today, i'll reassess that first thing tomorrow.

[outoforder]

rofl, i meant townreads

[outoforder]

The posts are literally next to each other... You are saying you just randomly decided to stop reading further at that point? If i am completely honest, FECambell, i'd like to have you actually reach to some conclusions because you aren't really giving us anything right now.

[outoforder]

Aubrey and doomfeathers; Could you elaborate more on your read on Kop, he seems townie to me, which earlier games of him are you guys referring to?

[outoforder]

The posts are literally next to each other... You are saying you just randomly decided to stop reading further at that point? If i am completely honest, FECambell, i'd like to have you actually reach to some conclusions because you aren't really giving us anything right now.

I mean like:
You have already commented things that have happened way after those posts you just were concerned about. How does it make any sense that you didn't care about them the first time you read it or are you reading the thread backwards or something?

[outoforder]

I'm reading you as town, because

your posts seem a bit more thought

out and there is more frustration behind your words.

In the game we just finished, you seemed more composed as scum.

Like this is exactly why i read Aubrey town, especially after looking at his scumgame. There seems to be a notable difference in that game in comparison to this one. I really really liked that post and Kop for that reason only.

[outoforder]

What do you mean is the "crap i don't do as scum"?
Earlier he did that, you are saying so? Where?

[outoforder]

Look at that crap. You know I didn't buddy in our last game as scum.

Last game is a indicator, something I'd use in this game to monitor your gamestyle, but I won't use it as concrete evidence to say this game is the same.

You mean this post (and the couple of posts before)? I think he was saying that buddying is scum-indicative, not that you are scum since your meta suggests you buddy as scum? Like you didn't necessarily do that in your last game -- but you were doing it here (regardless of what he meant by it - or why he said it).

At least i can't find a post where he stated you buddying is what your meta suggests you do as mafia.

[outoforder]

I am townreading him because of his posts on MooginSoosy (who i am also suspicious of for reasons i will outline soon). And because of WHY he townreads you, not just because he townreads you -- since i share the opinion of why you are town as i pointed earlier.

Basically - if you go read MooginSoosy's posts, she gave townreads on me, Rels and Creature.
When being prodded about the townreads she retracted from all of them except for the townread on me. I don't understand why he townread Rels and Creature in the first place, since there is no real explanation. Basically the read on Rels she has shouldn't have been a townread in the first place since almost everything Rels has posted is why she retracted from the read... I don't understand the read - or the change of read - on Creature at all. I don't see the thoguht process. I don't understand the read on me either since she literally said she has a townread on me for a post she doesn't know why i even posted that?!?!?!? I mean like, wtf does that even mean or how can she come to a such conclusion. And i certainly don't like her vote on doomfeathers since i heavily disagree with the case.

fitz' big post didn't change anything for me regarding the read on him. Still think he is likely to be mafia.

hapahauli needs to do more shit, right now he doesn't look good (basically playing way below his town!play level imo). While i am not certain he is mafia i was before, i definitely don't have a town read on him.

Fredrick E Campbell gets a scumlean for what i said before. I don't understand how someone can read the thread in that kinda manner. For me it looks like he is just taking some random things at a random time to cprod on them without actually thinking why people even do the stuff they do.

Basically this is where i stand:

town (in no specific order other than Rels):

Aubrey
Kop
KidAmn
doomfeathers
Creature

Rels

Useless / undecided on:

Allomancer*
hapahauli

Current scumreads (the lower - more scummy):

MooginSoosy / Fredrick E Campbell
havingfitz

[outoforder]

I don't like the fact that OoO waited to see rels' reaction. How easy it would be for a scum rels to buddy up with OoO right away just because they know each other from another game. I liked his interaction with creature but I think he backed off too easily. Then to suddenly agree to a townblock with creature, OoO and doom (though he was iffy on doom still). I think one of them is latching onto that group to fly under the radar

So you have nowfirst scumread me for some post, then townread me for the same post, and then apparently you don't again like it? Which is it?

Hawk you may want to read my posts before asking me questions about reads i have already explained. I really hate when people come to thread not having read all of it and ask about something that has expained already. When people post i expect them to have read every post there is, since what's the point of making a post if you don't have read every piece of information there is? At best it's lazy and never helpful, at worst it's scummy (because of what it is at its best ^^).

My read on Creature is based on that he doesn't really care about how people see him, and what people think of him. It looks like he's got the mindset of "fuck you i don't have to tell you anything i don't want to, here is just what i think. I will give you my reasoning when i please". I know a player who works the same way and still, when you read the posts you get a gist of where they are coming from. If you don't, they are probably mafia - which isn't the case here imo.

[outoforder]

I don't like the fact that OoO waited to see rels' reaction.

How easy it would be for a scum rels to buddy up with OoO right away just because they know each other from another game.

Ironically enough, remember this:

...if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying.

How on earth does someone possibly buddy up to something they cannot possibly know how to buddy up to?

See here's my problem with you: You have now given reads on me, doomfeathers, Creature and Rels. You have since backed down from your reads on Rels and Creature. So i am left with you having:
- a townread on me for a post you find, townie, bad, and maybe even scummy....
- a scumread on doomfeathers for something, when you gave your reasoning, was JUST said by another player...
- and that's it, i have no idea where you stand on other people, and i can't even get how you stand somewhere on the people you do.

Do you understand why i have a hard time thinking you are town?

[outoforder]

Further enoguh, when you are asked to elaborate on your read on Rels, you in fact elaborate on your read on me, in a way that contradicts what you have said before..

[outoforder]

Well to be fair Hawk is not right on what he says about MooginSoosy's vote on doomfeathers. Still i don't agree with the reasoning.

Ugh i just thought about what you said Aubrey. Idk... Yeah idk, maybe there is none. Like i have seen scum do that but you're right. I'd still like her to explain how she comes to the latter conclusions based on the same posts she came to other conclusions before. Logically it doesn't make sense from any perspective and from my experience when something makes no sense from any perspective it's usually mafia -- as townies do not know why mafia comes to the conclusions the do, as they have more information than townies do.

[outoforder]

God OoO makes my word walls look concise.

OoO the only thing I saw for explanation on a townread on Kids was in your big long 118 and I didn't quite understand how you just pulled that out. Like if he was scum he'd know you're town? That assumes you're town which is fine to say but for me to take that argument at face value I have to know you're town or believe you are town which I am undecided and have no way of comfing you as town so please explain what about Kid you are town reading. As well unless I missed it in an ISO of you I don't see anything completely concrete as to why Doom and Kop are so high on your town list either.

Creature you interact with plenty that's fine. I also agree with Aubreyou Creatures attitude isn't probably AI for him. I'll have to dig into his Meta myself but I'll take Aubrey's word on it for now.

Yes, my townread on KidAm is based on the fact that i know i am town and him as mafia wouldn't act like he did knowing i am town. As i said i understand you might not share the sentiment but when i think someone is town or mafia, i tell it and lay out my reasoning.

My townread on doomfeathers is based on i feel like he is trying to make stuff happen - from early on. And he is actually considering his reads when new information comes up.

My townread on Kop is based on this:

I am townreading him because of his posts on MooginSoosy (who i am also suspicious of for reasons i will outline soon). And because of WHY he townreads you (Aubrey), not just because he townreads you -- since i share the opinion of why you are town as i pointed earlier.

It seemed like some people had a differing opinion on this, but i have yet to see a post other than "well he could do that as scum too". Sure, everyone "could" probably do anything as mafia. I just think it's more likely to come from town than from mafia.

It's unfortunate if you don't agree with me, but i have basically stopped caring about trying to convince people over and over again when i play mafia. I nowadays get my pleasure from the game in seeing if i was right or not. That's my reasoning, if you don't agree, then you don't. If you think that's scummy, vote for me. I don't really feel the need to explain my reads over and over again since i find it unprodutive, when i say:
"I read person X town because of Y" and then someone asks me "Why do you read person X town".....

What was I not right about?

MooginSoosy gave her resoning to scumread doomfeathers way before you even joined the game so saying

"So essentially what I just said earlier color me not impressed. Like I agree but at the same time you're just regurgitating something I said before so how much of that opinion was your own I can't tell"

is basically you regurgitating her now isn't it?

[outoforder]

Anyways i gotta leave for work. Laters!

[outoforder]

Hapahauli is basically playing below his level. He is not being as smart as he is supposed to be and his scumgame is wel.... quite bad.

[outoforder]

Hapahauli is basically playing below his level. He is not being as smart as he is supposed to be and his scumgame is wel.... quite bad.

Does this look like his scum game from previous times you've played with him?

Not really because last time he tried to make a super bullshit case on me and has probably learned from it. The point that when he is town he looks super duper town and makes really smart posts and is not doing it here still stands.

[outoforder]

From the general consensus, it seems we're narrowing down scum to likely being in the lower end of posting / activity. I seriously wouldn't be shocked if one (if not two) are fooling us by playing in an aggressive/active manner.

At least i am narrowing scum down to who i think are scum. I don't care if they are lurkers or whatever. I don't care if people are V/LA or not, because that doesn't mean anything to their alignment and definitely is not a reason not to scumread anyone if you have a legitmate reason to do that. I find it super dumb to say you cannot scumread someone because they are not here (i know you're not really saying that, but i know that's what a lot of people seem to think here). I think scum are fitz, hapa, and Frederick. Everyone else looks more or less town to me. Fortunately fitz and hapa will be back in a day or so and Frederick will get replaced so they should be all posting soon.

Feel free to pressure doomfeathers or Kop though. I don't feel the need to defend them at this point even though i don't share people's scumreads on them. We've got more than a week left in the day phase so there is no hurry. Maybe i am wrong and you'll get something out of them. But i don't also feel the need to "pressure" my townreads over something i don't even believe in. That seems just dumb to me.

[outoforder]

~130 games.

[outoforder]

I am not not considering that. I work on probabilities and when two posts are next to each other i would say there is over 50% chance you don't miss it (unless you don't really care for some reason). That's what i find contradicting in his behavior, no matter his mental mindset. Usually people who don't care are mafia. I don't know why he replaced out and i don't know if he was in the same mindset back then.

But you are right, ofc i will give his replacement a chance. We have something like 9 days left in the day phase, i am not gonna call any case slam dumk lol. Talking about him won't really get us anywhere rn, and i was just telling where i stand atm. Everyone else than those three people look town to me anyways so in case i have missed something - please do tell and pressure them (if you think someone else is mafia). I don't, so i am going to wait until my scumreads do something and what the replacement does.

[outoforder]

Btw that was an intended double negative.

[outoforder]

OOO why is Kop town ?

Read my filter and you'll find out.

[outoforder]

Actually there is one thing that bothers me about Kop now that i read his filter again.

Kop do you want to clarify the following statement you gave me at early on in the game:

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

Now if you believe what you originally wrote in the quote above, how come is it so that your vote hasn't EVER been on anyone in this game except for RVS?

[outoforder]

And Hapa is still the best lynch. Just because we are not talking about him doesn't erase that.

I agree with this again.
In fact i agree with it this much:
VOTE: Hapahauli

[outoforder]

It's funny since i told you the exact same thing about hapa like 5 days ago...

[outoforder]

Apparently I don't know what ASAP means

If a 48h game it means at most something like 3 hours, maybe in this game it's 24 hrs?

I also just learned quotes are super annoying here.

[outoforder]

IT's super annoying if i wanna cut off the rest of the quotes other than the last one because i have no idea where the first quote tag ends.

[outoforder]

Hapa. Tomorrow when i go through all this is there gonna be contradictions timelinewise? If i find one i am gonna call you scum. If i do not, youre town.

[outoforder]

Something came up so my follow up on hapa has to wait until tomorrow when i am in train and have three hours of free time.

[outoforder]

I am up to p27. Unfortunately the finnish wifi in trains is shit and i hought i would have a bit time yesterday despite hoing to visit friends outside my home country.

I am gonna finish catching up tonight and then gollow up on haps and i also got some questions for cassielle.

For now UNVOTE: hapahauli

[outoforder]

So cassielle:

Let me try to understand this:
You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa. A part of your case on Creature is based on him bussing hapa. How do you define this? I mean like what difference there is in this situation that this looks like him bussing instead of him being mafia trying to lynch a townie, or him being town thinking hapa is mafia? Another thing i am pretty puzzled with is that you are right now voting for KidAm partly because he is trying to ML a pro-town player. Just that this "pro-town" player you are talking about is one of your scumreads?

You can't have it both ways so how does any of this make any sense?

[outoforder]

Btw i still think havingfitz is scum. I went to reread his filter and what he basically did in his wall of text was this:\
- I don't like wall of texts -> writes a wall of text -> the conclusion he ends up in is "now let me continue and post my reads later".......

VOTE: havingfitz

[outoforder]

Dont you fucking dare to lynch anyone with 3 days left in the phase.

[outoforder]

You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa.

Your information must be pretty old. Cassielle hasn't been scumreading Creature for a while.

There is nothing in her filter between those posts. There is no "oh i changed my mind, i think this is the truth instead". Just a scumread on hapa + creature and then a vote on kidam while no reasoning why the read on the earlier two has changed.

Havingfitz is scum though. Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

Go read his wot and then compare it with what i said. Please.

[outoforder]

I am gonna quote that cassiole or whatever her name was thing when i get home. Just boarded my flight and i am taking the train back home.

Btw Rels is lying, he wasnt in NZ.
But i kniw thats not alignment indicative because french people cannot get the difference between NZ and NL.

(Sorry i had to do that Rels)

[outoforder]

Not boarded btw.. landed rofl

[outoforder]

You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa.

Your information must be pretty old. Cassielle hasn't been scumreading Creature for a while.

There is nothing in her filter between those posts. There is no "oh i changed my mind, i think this is the truth instead". Just a scumread on hapa + creature and then a vote on kidam while no reasoning why the read on the earlier two has changed.

Havingfitz is scum though. Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

Go read his wot and then compare it with what i said. Please.

Okay so are you scumreading Cass for that? Weigh in on Hapa for me? Do you think he's town?

OoO while you're at it weigh in on Creature for me. I've been looking over his ISO and I want some other opinions. I know Cass TR's him now but I have a hard time reading him.

I want to read hapa again when i actually have time (which is tonight). I think creature is town because even though he doesnt explain his shit i can see (or guess) the logic on how he ends up to his conclusions. When i have a ptoblem with them i will ask, rn i dont.

I am not necessarily scumreading cass, i am adking her how she came to her conclusions because i cant see any logic behind it.

[outoforder]

Like i used to play a lot like how creature does when i started playing. Its super hard to keep that up if he is scum, and to me he doesnt really look scummy at all.

[outoforder]

@Outoforder, while you catch up, weigh in on Rels for me as well.

I cant tell if Rels is mafia on D1. My townread on him is genuine but i understand he could be scum. He thinks so alike i do i always end up on a townread on him on d1 (unless he does something completely retarded). I mean, my play is based on logic and if the logic ppl are using is making sense in any way or not. Rels probably knows my logic, so if he is scum he will also know what to tell me. I tried being super sneaky on him at the start of the game since he HAS made blunders on that before. But yeah, i prolly end up thinking he is town in 80% of the time regardless of his alignment because i am a sucker for logic.

[outoforder]

Wait, OoO is an alt?

No

[outoforder]

Yes. Playing alike you fo in this game != playing on this site, no?

[outoforder]

Does noone find anything wrong in fitz complaining about wot's in a wot that ends up in no conclusions? And then trying to fend off the suspicion because of something else i did (instead of elaborating on the obvious contradiction).

[outoforder]

And btw KidAm is not fucking mafia...

[outoforder]

My argument is his wot ends up with "i will post my reads later".

Why would you ever write a post that is not towards twlling your reads or explaing something other people want from you (i.e. making your thought process clear).

[outoforder]

He wrote like 1000 word that said nothing. AFTER I HAVE BEEN READ TOWN FOR A WOT (that actually had a reason to be written).

[outoforder]

But Frederick made a blunder; got pressured by OOO; and replaced out. He didn't replace out of nowhere; he replaced specifically after being pressured. More likely coming from scum than town.

Is this actually a thing that happens in TeamLiquid? I'd like Outoforder and Hap to answer as well. This seems like a massive stretch.

Yes it does happen. I also believe it happens here more than you believe, just that you can never prove that.

I dont think that is part of his original case is it? I believe it is just frustration for when you make a case on someone they just "replace out for reasons". I can get the frustration, i get the same feeling all the time.

[outoforder]

I'll wait till catch up is complete to give my reads and serious vote.

Here's what he said. I don't see the issue in catching up halfway through and holding off on giving reads until he's completely caught up.

I dont have problem with this post.
Tell me, why did he write the wot before? (You can just read the last 2 sentences for TLDR)

[outoforder]

He wrote like 1000 word that said nothing. AFTER I HAVE BEEN READ TOWN FOR A WOT (that actually had a reason to be written).

I've played with Fitz before. Can confirm that wall-of-text is his normal style of play. I very much doubt he saw you getting townread for your wall and decided to go "hey, let me write a wall so I too can be townread."

You seem to be pretty big on looking over people's past games. Haven't you read any of Fitz's?

I dont do that when i think someone is scum. I do that when i cant decide.

[outoforder]

Why the fuck you ppl join games you dont wanna play in? The replacement ratio is disgusting.

Cass, grab your shit, stop whining anf play ffs...

[outoforder]

Oh fuck i have completely misread something.
forget everything i said about cass.

[outoforder]

Although cass i'd still appreciate if you yold me what makes you think you got a better chance of catching mafia if you lynch into active players than if you don't.

If i have missed the answer just say "fuck you and read the thread" and i will find it later. other than that i have no problems with you whoch leaves me with a problem that i dont have 3 scumreads, so i am missing something here... :/

[outoforder]

I dont think youre getting my point hawk.

[outoforder]

I aldo dont know how i could be more clear so ugh....

[outoforder]

Oh sorry as haek i meant BV.
BV who did you replace?

[outoforder]

I'll put this out very clearly.
He wrote a wall that in the end said "my reads eill follow later".
You think writing 1000 words of nonsense (since reads are the only thing that matter) is a townie trait?

[outoforder]

What i see there is his logic at the start of the post changing to something else by the end of it. Thats why i think he is scum. It doesnt help that when i ask him to explain this he just refuses to and points out towards something i did.

[outoforder]

Well to be honest i just called him scum for it but basically the same thing.

[outoforder]

Now for the kids out there that would kinda be the definition of OMGUS.

[outoforder]

In any game of Fitz's that I looked at, his catch up style has always been to make walls responding to posts. Responding to things that have been said in thread isn't nonsense. He responded to half of it, said he'll do the rest later and post his reads when caught up.

Did you look at his mafia games too?
Do they differ?

[outoforder]

Wait so.... you are daying my case that hasnt anything to do with meta is incorrect because of meta?

[outoforder]

What is the content you like by him?

[outoforder]

I'm saying your point about Fitz walling is a null tell for him. Read him based on the substance in his walls. See 859.

My point is not him walling. I thought i was clear already. :p

[outoforder]

And there is no substance in his wall soooooo...?????????

[outoforder]

Deems like mooginsoosy wad mafia after all <3

[outoforder]

Booooo no creature plz

[outoforder]

Wtf are yoy doing? I want an answer. That is terrible man.

[outoforder]

Your point is that he is scum because he walled while complaining about walling. That's a bad argument. You then said he's scum because he wrote a wall and said he'd give his reads after catching up fully which you think is scummy because you don't see the point of the wall. I pointed out that this is a null-tell for him since catchup walls is how he plays the game. I don't find it at all odd for him to catch up partway through and say he'll give his reads when caught up fully. You then said he's omgus'ing you which again is something I've seen him do as both alignments. I feel like I'm beating my head on a wall here. Fitz isn't getting lynched today. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the rest of the playerlist when you are caught up.

No it isnt. Maybe you are just not bright but i explained it at least three times....

[outoforder]

I sm sorry BV that was unnecessary from me. I tend to get mad when people do not get what i am saying.

[outoforder]

Do not lynch today???? Why the fuck you would???

There is time. A lot of people just go "i want a lynch". Ehrn townies do that how do you tell anything about the people who just did that (regarding alignmrnt). Make ppl have reads, not just sheep a lynch.

Please.

[outoforder]

No worries. It can be frustrating when people talk past each other which is what this conversation felt like. Just catch up and lay out your thoughts in detail. I think that'll help me a lot more in seeing where you are coming from.

I have caught up and i want to lynch fitz for the rrasons i have stated.

Fuck i am so waffling on hapa... i really honestly have no clue about his alignment atm. If rels was not a dickhead and didnt tell me to go read the last game hapa played i would think he is magia but... ugh... i am not going to oppose the lynch (until or if hapa gives me a reason to) if thats what you wanna do.

Idk who else is scum, unfortunately. Thankfully i dont have to know rn.

[outoforder]

My battery is at 4% btw. If i stop posting i will be around at 00 cest anyways

[outoforder]

i expect a wall of an apology after all of the walls I had to read from you when I flip green.

Anything I say is just going to get twisted to meet your scum ideals.

You expect an apology from scum when they mislynch you? That sounds weird for sure.

[outoforder]

Lets lynch the omgusfitz!
Because he's gonna flip scum. Not sold on aubrey being mafia. Kop could be a good alternative to lynch. I dont wanna lynch hapa because i dont really think he is mafia and when he is not mafia his reads are good.

[outoforder]

I have also decided that cassielle is town and i wont be reading any of her posts because they make literally zero sense.

[outoforder]

If anyone wants some good laughs go read why havingfitz thinks creature is mafia. "All over the place" and "doesnt interact well eith others" != mafia. In fact its way more often the other way around. There is absolutely zero reason to think someone is mafia for that. In fact i dont understand any of his reads. All his scumreads are basically "i dont like how the person posts" which never makes anyone scum.

[outoforder]

I'd like to hear what Aubrey has to say about BV's case.

[outoforder]

Aldo i am sorry but if something is dumb or bad i will call it dumb or bad.

For example saying we should lynch someone because we cant lynch anyone else 24h before the deadline is dumb and bad.

[outoforder]

I seriously believe we should murder fitz, or possibly Kop. Maybe hawk is the third scum but idk. I am not too confident on that.

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

[outoforder]

Oh yes i forgot about doom too. He could be scum since he has just fallen out of the game completely.

Aubrey isnt mafia.

[outoforder]

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

I understand why it's bad, but does bad reads make someone mafia? Reading his filter, it also seemed like he was trying to actually consider my alignment and changing his opinion, which makes me think he's just awkward town.

Yes it usually does. When did he do that? Like now when we have some dumbasses yelling we cant lynch anyone but you??? Sounds like a safe place to start "reconsidering a read"...

[outoforder]

Hapa are you around for some time?

[outoforder]

Hapa are you around for some time?

I'm around for at least an hour. Should be more active later tonight to avoid a no-lynch.

Can we do this thing where we actually discuss things and find mafia?

Seems like we are having a different opinion on fitz so i am not really sure how i can sway you if what i have already said doesn't do it.
Your read on Creature. Go. Where do you get him being scum from?

[outoforder]

Currently thinking it is Aubrey and any two of Creature, Doomfeathers, Kop, and Rels. So, I'd give it a 50-50 shot on any of those last four flipping mafia. I'd actually really like your take on Aubrey's posting over the last 10 or so pages.

I really really do not think Aubrey is mafia. What you said makes perfect sense, i am just quite sure his actions are not scum motivated.
But srsly where the hell do people get the Creature scumread?

[outoforder]

Mind elaborating on why? Creature has been avoiding giving any opinion on Aubrey and dodges important questions. Just read how Creature reacted to my Aubrey push last night compared with Fitz. Saying Creature is town and Fitz is scum is a pretty huge stretch.

Creature reminds me of a couple of people i have played with on TL (hapa knows VayneAuthority and yamato). What i gather from Creature's posts is similar to those people and i am usually quite accurate in reading them. There is some sort of a thought process going on in his head and while i can't necessarily even point out exactly what that is, i can see there is one. It is super hard to emulate as mafia - in terms of staying consistent, because you would be trying emulating something that doesn't exist in the first place (since you really just make stuff up as mafia, at least at some point you HAVE to start doing that). That's where those sort of people's scumgame fall apart really quick, and i am not seeing any of it here. If he doesn't want to talk about soemthing that doesn't mean he is avoiding it necessarily, it might just as well mean her doesn't find the particular matter important. I do the same myself, i don't answer questions that i find totally unnecessary. Like who the fuck cares if me and Rels can fool each other as mafia? What is the point of the question? If i say "yes" does it mean noone should ever trust my read on him (or vice versa). If i say "no" does it mean if i think Rels is mafia it magically becomes by default a more sheeped read regardless of the content? The question possibly cannot achieve anything, unless we are both town and it's mafia asking it...

[outoforder]

@OoO

What do you consider particularly damning about Fitz's read progression? You should know that stuff making sense =/= mafia.

I'd rather be lynching into Kop, mostly because there's hypocrisy and contradiction in his filter, combined with his play looking like he's laying low through the important thread events.

It's not that that he is not making any sense. It's that he points out certain principles in his post which he then works against.
Like he complains about WOT's and says "i wont read them if i find them boring". That is fine. What is not fine is that after saying that he writes a wall of text that ends up in literally zero conclusions because the ending sentence says "i will post my reads later". That by default (in mafia terms) makes the post "boring" because it doesn't achieve anything, he just summed up something that has happened and asked some random questions.

It's like saying you think doing X makes someone scum and then you follow it up by saying someone is town as they did X. It doesn't make any sense because it doesn't involve a logical thought process in any way. And i am not talking about if it makes sense to me or not, i am talking about the fact that in a townie world it cannot make sense to even himself.

[outoforder]

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

To be fair, I understand your point on Hapa. But I think we gain more information from the Rels lynch.

I think Doom could be the outsider in all of this, but I don't think he will be put forward as a candidate today.

Hapa, you know your alignment. Why does Kop make this post as mafia?

[outoforder]

I have absolutely no idea and if this was TL i would lynch the shit out of it but this isn't, and people do that elsewhere.

[outoforder]

Like i literally jsut got lynched because Palmar claimed (or not - but people thought he did) a red check on me. That was the only reason anyone had in suspecting me, except that they didn't even necessarily believe Palmar is a cop. That doesn't make any fucking sense to base a read on something you dont even believe is true, but wanna guess what alignment those people were?

[outoforder]

I think his frustration is genuine, just like yours before. I am sorry i can't give a better answer, i just don't think he's mafia. For me it looked like he wanted to have it his way and when it didn't work out he just got mad. I don't think scum do that quite often.

It's Palmar. That invalidates any comparison to anyone.

I wasnt talking about Palmar. I was talking about everyone else in the game.

[outoforder]

I do but the "target of frustration" if you can call it that is actually different than what i am trying to make it look like it is.
That's why i said genuine.

[outoforder]

What i am trying to say is that dick-move-analysis suggest that Aubrey is town. That's pretty much my final answer.

[outoforder]

[....]I'd replace out, but that would be completely unfair to whoever takes over my slot.

I mean whoever writes this as mafia should feel terrible and i have no interest in playing with them anymore so i just have to think they are town.

[outoforder]

It's not that he has votes on him that he is raging about. More of "i am possibly not getting the lynch i want" which doesnt make any sense as mafia unless Rels is mafia which doesn't make any sense in the first place given in which position Aubrey put himself into (hapa vs rels is today's lynch).

[outoforder]

Well that works for me if you dont wanna lynch a guy who every time i represent my case responds with "he has no case".

UNVOTE: havingfitz

Am i gonna vote now? I have like 10mins.

[outoforder]

VOTE: Hawk

[outoforder]

You can be right though. Rels usually doesnt ignore what i say, especially when he should see the same thing i did.

[outoforder]

You can be right though. Rels usually doesnt ignore what i say, especially when he should see the same thing i did.

Curious about this - what did Rels ignore and what should he have seen?

My case on fitz.

[outoforder]

Hey we did the impossible that noone could ever do!
It's like magic!

[outoforder]

Lets lynch the omgusfitz!
Because he's gonna flip scum. Not sold on aubrey being mafia. Kop could be a good alternative to lynch. I dont wanna lynch hapa because i dont really think he is mafia and when he is not mafia his reads are good.

I have also decided that cassielle is town and i wont be reading any of her posts because they make literally zero sense.

If anyone wants some good laughs go read why havingfitz thinks creature is mafia. "All over the place" and "doesnt interact well eith others" != mafia. In fact its way more often the other way around. There is absolutely zero reason to think someone is mafia for that. In fact i dont understand any of his reads. All his scumreads are basically "i dont like how the person posts" which never makes anyone scum.

This sequence of posting makes me more than happy with an Ooo lynch. Will do more wordsing when I get out of work.

I am going to wait one day for an answer to this, which is something you promised but never followed up on.
I am especially interested in second quote, not in a sense of where you are coming from since you said it already in your post 895, but in a sense of how on earth you can possibly think the player who is literally most disruptive to the town in this game can possibly be the "driving force" behind the town. It doesn't make any sense.

Or maybe it's just a playstyle thing. But you can also think about it a little by yourself, was it better to actively try to solve the game or was it better to actively shut down any wagons for the last 3 days or so and just yell some random things. Give it a thought.

[outoforder]

You suspect them cause they are voting you and have a cold foul mouth at times?

Voting me and having a foul mouth aren't automaticreasons for suspicion.

I'm not presenting a case on OoO.

(1)

I'm complaining about the fact he's ignored my questions...

(2)

made no case on me I can see and is

(3)

discrediting other players.

Which when laid out like that is stuff I find suspect in varying degrees. Zzzzzz
Out...

I will also expect an aswer in the first place to this post:
(1) If you still want to pursue this, i will go to my filter and i believe every single question you have asked me has been answered. I am going to prove this tomorrow, which makes you at best not evaluating what people say unless they directly answer to you (which is jsut stupid). But it probably makes you mafia.
(2) This is just simply untrue
(3) I call bad bad and stupid stupid. It has nothing to do with discrediting (unless you wanna call calling out terrible stuff for a reason "discrediting"). Why do you want to have the thread filled with unimportant bad stuff?

[outoforder]

What are we gonna gonna do now?

We most likely lynch scummingfitz.

[outoforder]

I am sorry but i am not insulting you, definitely not baselessly.
I work with people i can work with, and you once again proved you're impossible to work with.

[outoforder]

And speaking of talking shit you are getting on my nerves really hard because YOU are the ONLY person who filled this fucking thread with shit for the last three pages or so. So try to get some fucking grip and start playing mafia.

[outoforder]

Creature where's your head at at the moment?

[outoforder]

You, BV, Cass and momo town. Am I missing someone?

I kinda think Kop is town too because after Aubrey wagon got derailed i believe scum were trying to lynch Kop. That has to be the case unless we assume scum are playing like complete idiots and didn't even try to get anyone lynched. I also believe there is never more than 1 mafia in the Hawk wagon, so at least one of Hapa and Rels has to be town. For your townreads i do agree.

Basically i am left with:
havingfitz
KidAmn
(Hapa/Rels)

Rels had some posts that i found out possibly coming from scum!Rels. Hapa wagon was gladly accepted by almost all of the players, so idk.. that probably makes him town? I have to look back and see who actually weren't willing to lynch Hapa and if that could mean something. KidAmn fits as scum though, since while imo he was one of the "easy lynches" for scum to try push on (if town), he wasn't really being pushed while making some posts i found super irrational.

Idk if Rels would vote for Hawk like that as mafia so i am puzzled about that too. I'd have to check back some older games and how Rels has played as mafia when i get a chance to. The fact however is that Rels is usually a player who tries to drive the thread as scum, and there are a LOOOOT of "good" cases to be made (from scum perspective) on D1. I am not quite sure why he didn't take the chance assuming he is scum as he for sure had plenty of those chances.

[outoforder]

3 hours till eod and NO WAGONS ARE NEAR FULL

this is why i was saying HAPA LYNCH IS TODAY'S LYNCH

were gonna fuckin no lynch on BVs wagonwaffling derailing bs???????

this is the value of having a pre-decided d1 lynch target so you dont fucking run into a deadline lynch with NO VIABLE GODDAMN WAGONS

if everyones vote is worthless for getting a goddamn lynch rn im gonna go out in style

VOTE: BlackVoid

ready to drive this to fuckin market tbh

Cass, we can L1 one of Kop or Hawk.

somehow missed this

ok, so how can we do that? just our two votes together? last i saw the top wagons were L-4! (!!!)

if i had to pick one? hawk

kop is a worthless deadline lynch due to lurking
we just end up going into d2 with the same amount of info we started d1 with unless we actually hit scum!kop tbh

regardless of flip at least hawk has a lot of interactions

fine

i hate this tho like REALLY HATE THIS

VOTE: Hawk

L-1 p sure

I don't really have problems with Kop's posting other than the big paragraph of "put your vote somewhere" while simultaneously him sitting there not voting. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[outoforder]

why the fuck does this give me those quotes?

[outoforder]

- with you initially stating you had a "slight" scumread on him due to something Aubrey posted. That last quote is the only point you've been actively pushing on Fitz on all day; meanwhile Fitz has repeatedly asked you to state a case beyond this with no detailed response from you beyond complaining about his walls having no substance in #1006 (which I strongly disagree with).

So basically in your world when someone makes a case and the person answers "make another case as you don't have one" the first player needs to provide another case?
idk how this even... rofl :p

My case is perfectly logical. I haven't ad hom'd anyone. I have called out bad as bad. If that's ad hom in your opinion you have done the same yourself, multiple times. You have literally - yourself - called other players bad and dumb so there you go.

What a surprise, as soon as I express suspicion of Ooo I'm back up on his suspect list already, when not too long ago...

This is a nice way to twist my words without taking any time to actually think what i have said lately. I re-evaluate when new things come up. I jsut made a post where i explain how my thought process has gone from point A to point B. If you can't understand that then i can't help you further. I will get tired explaining the same stuff over and over again, for example see the case on fitz. I have literally explained the whole thing clearly for like 5 times yet people are STILL misrepping the case to some "disliking wot's and then writing one is not scummy" (which is not my case) and "complaining about his walls having no substance" being not the case (which IS my case -

SINCE MAKING A POST WITH 1000 WORDS AND ENDING IT WITH "I AM GONNA POST MY READS LATER" IS A LITERAL DEFINITION OF A POST HAVING NO SUBSTANCE IN MAFIA TERMS

.... geez guys, srsly?

[outoforder]

Oh btw BlackVoid; I don't think your reasoning for townreading doom/momo slot is a good one. What i gather from your read is that you think the slot is town because of the replace out and in case of it being mafia they wouldn't have replaced out and instead went for Aubrey wagon, is that correct? Well if you assume - as town - doom had irl-reasons to replace out, why couldn't that be the case as him being mafia? Mafia people can have irl-reasons just as likely as town ppl so i don't really agree with your assessment that it makes him town (as you cannot really tell his alignment if he is telling the truth about the reasons to replace out, from that).

I however agree with him being town. He had a lot of approaches towards people that don't really make any sense as mafia since he could have taken "another route" on multiple things, and by doing so his team would gain (stirring up the thread and town) and there would have been basically no way to call him out of those things since they would have been logically argued (being wrong never makes anyone mafia in itself).

[outoforder]

YOUR CASE IS 3 SENTENCES LONG AND HAS NEVER BEEN EXPANDED ON. FITZ HAS NOT ASKED YOU TO "MAKE ANOTHER CASE", HE JUST WANTS MORE THAN A GODDAMN PARAGRAPH.

What has a case being 2 words or 1000 words have to do with anything? If someone claims mafia do you expect people to make a 10 paragraph case on them until you believe they are mafia?

My case is very simple. havingfitz did something he earlier said is not pro-town. Town players do not do things that they think are not pro-town. Therefore the only conclusion i can come to is that he is mafia. What is so hard to understand in that? It is very simple logic. If havingfitz was town he would here be

working against something he himself believes is good play

(i.e. he intentionally plays bad). Town players do not intentinally play in a way they consider bad townplay.

And yes, i have explained this at least three times before and it seems like you're still not getting it since you repeatedly misrepresent my case into something that it is not. So is it fair to say "you lack reading comprehension" or "this KidAmn dude somehow doesn't get it"??? Is it really that far from the truth? I am really not trying to be a dick here but i also really hate explaining clear things over and over again to people who aren't processing what they read. If you disagree with my case, then you do, but right now you seem like you are not disagreeing with my case because you don't seem to be getting the case in the first place.

[outoforder]

And yeah, cassielle literally yelled for the last three pages that "we cannot lynch anyone but hapa" (which was simply untrue), "if we however do we end up on town" (which was simply untrue), then voted for her townread Hawk (which is quite dumb imo - especially considering what she said before), and then, before the flip blamed all the world for lynching a townie and offered rope for the dude who lead a lynch on mafia (you think this makes sense?). Sooo... again i don't think i am far from truth when saying she was disruptive (because she was) and not making any sense (because she wasn't).

Again, this game is about convincing people to follow your lead by writing posts about people who are likely to be mafia. I do not think she is doing that. I do ignore those kind of people (unless i think they are mafia - which i don't think is the case here) because at best they are not helping town. I can't probably help you or her to understand me better since you take it personally when i express you are not playing very logically. I just state the things as they are. I also find it very hypocritical coming from you since YOU (and at least hapahauli and Rels) have definitely done the same exact thing you call ad hom here. But maybe you ad homing - if that's what you call it - is just better than me doing it....

[outoforder]

Creature do you really think the only counter-wagon to mafia!Hawk mafia tried to push at the end of the day was also mafia? How does that make any sense?

[outoforder]

Furthermore i just went to reread havingfitz' walls and his questions to me. I am 100% certain all the answers to those questions can be found in my filter.
That makes this post incredibly scummy especially based on the following:

[quote="In post 1159,

You have ignored repeated questions by me to you...

I have seen no case by you on me...and you have a tendency to ad-hom players and/or disparage their ability.

OoO wagon would work as well.

Imagine you are town here and you make this post. You have asked someone questions, and you now scumread them. Would you want to:
1) read their posts to figure out -> get actual reasons to call them mafia
2) just make (an incorrect) pointless accusation towards them based on some narrative of "you are not answering me"

Because (1) is what a townie would do. (2) almost always comes from mafia. Now, if havingfitz was doing (1) and actually thinking of what he has asked me, he would by reading my filter realize that

all the questions he has asked from me have been already answered by me or by someone else!!!!

The non-motivation of actually thinking about this strengthens the fact hapahauli pointed out earlier about fitz:

VOTE: havingfitz

I agree with Aubrey. Fitz's play feels a lot like what I've done as mafia in the past.

He's asking a bunch of safe and pointless questions that aren't really productive one way or the other.

The fact that he is not realizing his questions are already answered basically proves he is not either interested in the answers, or he doesn't even remember the questions. Both of which lead to his questions being pointless to

even himself

, both of what comes from mafia.

[outoforder]

EBWOP:

Furthermore i just went to reread havingfitz' walls and his questions to me. I am 100% certain all the answers to those questions can be found in my filter.
That makes this post incredibly scummy especially based on the following:

You have ignored repeated questions by me to you...

I have seen no case by you on me...and you have a tendency to ad-hom players and/or disparage their ability.

OoO wagon would work as well.

Imagine you are town here and you make this post. You have asked someone questions, and you now scumread them. Would you want to:
1) read their posts to figure out -> get actual reasons to call them mafia
2) just make (an incorrect) pointless accusation towards them based on some narrative of "you are not answering me"

Because (1) is what a townie would do. (2) almost always comes from mafia. Now, if havingfitz was doing (1) and actually thinking of what he has asked me, he would by reading my filter realize that

all the questions he has asked from me have been already answered by me or by someone else!!!!

The non-motivation of actually thinking about this strengthens the fact hapahauli pointed out earlier about fitz:

VOTE: havingfitz

I agree with Aubrey. Fitz's play feels a lot like what I've done as mafia in the past.

He's asking a bunch of safe and pointless questions that aren't really productive one way or the other.

The fact that he is not realizing his questions are already answered basically proves he is not either interested in the answers, or he doesn't even remember the questions. Both of which lead to his questions being pointless to

even himself

, both of what comes from mafia.

[outoforder]

Ugh, now the second scum lynch looks harder.

Yes it looks like so.

[quote="In post 1436
i cant get over the TL trio for scum possibles kinda, could be TL meta but its not identical for each of them?
like rels just softballs scumread slots, or practically pencils in the answer on the side of his questions in some cases, then calls them giving the obvious answer town
hapa talks around people instead of to them, doesn't show interest in anything but his own slot surviving, throws scumreads at the wall and sees what sticks, etc
and ooo seems focused on making me miserable more than trying to work with one of his townreads, hurls verbal abuse at anyone whose play mildly inconveniences his own, exaggerates to the point of meaninglessness (bv for example has posted far more than me despite replacing in much later, yet i "spammed"), etc

If you or anyone else has any willpower to argue about this tell this girl why even suggesting this at this state of the game is totally absurd and cannot possibly be true.
I don't really care because it doesn't achieve anything but the fact is there is at least one townie right now basically refusing to vote for mafia, that is something you're right on Creature.

[outoforder]

havingfitz. When you read the thread you know why.

[outoforder]

Alright. You literally suggested that that two of Rels, hapahauli and me are mafia.
That doesn't make any sense since - as you have YOURSELF said before, bussing makes very very little sense in this setup. That is something i agree on.

Now let's imagine that you are actually right and two of us three are mafia. Why on earth did our scumbuddy Hawk get lynched???? Do you seriously think that regardless of which two of us are mafia, we wouldn't have tried (and tbh totally succeeded) to push the lynch towards Aubrey, Kop, or hell just get a no-lynch??? You seriously have to think we are the dumbest scumteam i have ever seen (especially in a setup where if you happen to shoot a wrong dude one of your teammates die). It makes literally no sense and combination of two from us three is the remaining pair of mafia. I am not sure how closely you had read the thread but all of us were online at varying times when the lynch was decided.

- If i am mafia why do i strongly defend Aubrey? If i am mafia why don't i latch on Kop when i could have easily done that?
- If Hapahauli is mafia why doesn't he latch on Aubrey and just disagree with the case on Hawk? He could have easily done that. If he is mafia why doesn't he just vote fitz with me (to make the lynch most likely end up in no-lynch)? If Hapahauli is mafia why doesn't he just make up reasons for suspecting Kop and go for that lynch instead, when he could have easily done that?
- If Rels is mafia why does he just vote for Hawk when BlackVoid says so? (hint: if i was in a team with Rels there is literally zero chance he would have done that) It is true that Rels' vote is quite baffling since i can't really tell where his mind actually changes in him putting down the vote.

Now i could understand if you thought one of the three of us was bussing. But no, you think both of Hawk's teammates were bussing him to death without even really trying to make anything else happen. I am not sure which kind of mafia play you are familiar with but that is just retarded mafia play in my opinion, and i know i won't - and likely Rels won't let that happen. Especially if we are, as you suggest, in a team with Hapahauli (or with each other), who we both are familiar with. If i am mafia i will always try to get the whole team to the same page in scumchat and make sure our team has a strategy - that strategy is never "bus a partner and defend all the possible town mislynches on D1", because it's a bad strategy.

Furthermore, and i will only tell this once more, the only reason you seem to be coming to your conclusion is because you don't like the people you are "suspecting". You have not given any real reasons for suspecting us. At least i know the reasons you laid out for suspecting me are complete bullshit because you are either calling something that is never alignment indicative scummy, or blatantly making something i have said to mean what you want it to mean - not what it actually means. You also know that not all of us three can possibly be mafia, yet you are calling all of us out for what seems to be "i dont like how this guy plays". I am sorry if it doesn't fit to your world that all of us three play is based on logic and scumreads usually based on leaps of logic. If we call something that is illogical illogic that is not an attack towards the person, that's there to say "it doesn't make any sense". It never crossed your mind that focusing on the above can just be a playstyle thing, ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU KNOW AT LEAST ONE OF US HAS TO BE TOWN.

It's like you're living in a different world and when someone proves you a different world, you completely dismiss the possibility of it still existing....
And again, i am not trying to be a dick towards you cassielle, i am just saying that if this is the logic you are going to use this game i don't really see a point in using my time to convince you of anything, or argue with you about anything, because we are coming from a completely different place and arguing with you doesn't do ANYTHING, it cannot possibly help in any way regardless of what i say in case you don't understand what i am saying.

There, that was the last time i am gonna touch this issue. You can keep voting for me all you want and i wont fucking care. But as long as you are not willing to take part in a conversation that actually has any logic in it, i really don't see much point in joining the conversation you're trying to push forward.

[outoforder]

I never suggested you have said you think all the three of us + Hawk are mafia. That's again you seeing things that don't exist...

[outoforder]

BlackVoid will come here and will do a "small fix" on this outoforder wagon.

At least i am basically waiting for seeing where BlackVoid stands.
Also interested in where Hapa and Rels stand after D1 and with the new information on the table.
We are pretty much on the same page and i have not much interest in Kop since based on VCA i don't think he can be scum.
Letting momo to catch up and i don't really think his slot is scum here anyways. Discussing anything with cassielle or KidAmn seems like a dead end and both of them are voting for me because they don't like me so i don't even really feel the need, or care to defend myself against that.

[outoforder]

Creature (or anyone with like over 10 games of experience on this site):
How likely it is that mafia would try to "derail" a D1 lynch on their partner into a no-lynch by making a case on another partner of theirs? Basically do no-lynches happen, and if yes, how often, in IML games (D1)?

[outoforder]

After giving it more thought i dont really think hapa makes any sense as mafia since he was widely accepted as lynch. It just doesnt make any sense mafia would just let that happen so easily.

Regarding Rels, he usually has a lot of thread precense as mafia. I am somewhat certain he wouldnt vote for Hawk that easily in case he was mafia. Still need to check something regarding that when i get off work.

So basically i am left with fitz and KidAmn, because i think mafia rwally wanted to turn the lynch onto Kop late D1. Like when you made the case on Hawk suddenly the Kop wagon pops out of nowhere. And i dont really see anyone else being mafia.

[outoforder]

BV are you around maybe 2:30pm cest? Or if not, when are you around?

[outoforder]

Rels is probably mafia tbh.

[outoforder]

Reading further i'd like to correct myself, i am sure Rels is mafia.

[outoforder]

What do you mean with #1232? I don't see "blaming you for derailing Hapa wagon" there. To me it looks like he is happy when you made a case on Aubrey (which doesn't tell much about Hapa's alignment since as mafia having two town wagons instead of one is obviously better). The last two posts are after you made a case on him, correct? If that is so, it's probably just basic scum play -- when you have a case on you that you can't reasonably answer to you instead attack the other person or make up some meaningless stuff about something else they did instead of actually defending yourself against the case.

[outoforder]

I mean like posts #1232 and #1247 super easily always made Hawk mafia.
First he is happy you are trying to push the conversation forwards, when he ends up on you you are super terrible player just like the scum!Aubrey (as he "believed" Aubrey is mafia) said just a couple of moments before....

If Hapa is scum here why does Hawk say this though (in #1232):

OoO, BV, and Rels all still kinda townread Hapa and are posturing around the lynch. Of not OoO refuses to vote Aubrey but doesn't seem with happy with Hapa's lynch either... which is a really weird place to be 10 hours before deadline...

Anyone who has read my posts before this has to know i am never going to vote for Aubrey here. What's the point of "triggering me" (because if Hapa is scum and i take the bait i will 100% vote for Hapa out of those 2) here?

[outoforder]

EBWOP: when you end up on him

[outoforder]

What i mean in #1463, the last paragraph, is that him directly telling that to me cannot possibly achieve anything except my reaction being thinking either him or hapa is scum. Out of those three (him - hapa - aubrey) it doesn't make any sense unless he wants me on hapa.

[outoforder]

With 1232, I mean this was odd phrasing and had me paranoid that he knew Hap was mafia but it's weak.

Ahhh okay, i see what you mean. Do people actually do that here? I mean like "out scumbuddies" like that? I agree that's very very odd phrasing.

[outoforder]

This though felt like he was holding me accountable for trying so hard to find a lynch outside Hap so if Hap flips somewhere down the line, he could point to this.

I still have my reservations about this since how i interpret that post of Hawk's is that he is basically appealing to Aubrey and telling you "you should go back to hapa since now you're being retarded". Like in those later posts you quoted he is literally trying to appeal to the fact you FIRST went to Aubrey and then to him, which doesn't make much sense unless he either wants to:
1) you to go back to hapa (in which case hapa is most likely not mafia), or
2) just discredit you (in which case it doesn't tell anything about hapa's alignment)

[outoforder]

What do you mean with #1232? I don't see "blaming you for derailing Hapa wagon" there. To me it looks like he is happy when you made a case on Aubrey (which doesn't tell much about Hapa's alignment since as mafia having two town wagons instead of one is obviously better). The last two posts are after you made a case on him, correct? If that is so, it's probably just basic scum play -- when you have a case on you that you can't reasonably answer to you instead attack the other person or make up some meaningless stuff about something else they did instead of actually defending yourself against the case.

Okay, but if Hawk and Fitz are both scum, would they so easily jump off of the guaranteed Hap mislynch for a potential Aubrey mislynch when they could just take the Hap mislynch and wait for me tunnel Aubrey the following day?

You are right that two town counterwagons are better than one but they come at the risk of the scum looking opportunistic when they switch over which is exactly what happened. I also don't like that Hap posted in a different game since this thread open but hasn't posted here for over a day and a half. It's clearly not because he hasn't been on site.

I don't know. I assume Aubrey has played with them, correct? I also assume Hapa hasn't, correct? If that's the case i don't see why they wouldn't.
The other thing in town!Aubrey lynch favored against town!Hapa lynch is that they then have BlackVoid who "derailed the lynch onto a townie" so you again have 2 pushable town wagons on D2.

But okay, let's say fitz and Hapa are mafia here. Why does Hapa vote Hawk "so easily"? Why not try to lynch someone like Kop (or no-lynch)?

[outoforder]

Because at the time they had thread presence. What makes them play the way they did? Fitz didn't care much when Hapa or Aubrey was being lynched. He only started caring when Hawk was, regardless of where his vote was until his vote on Kop. Hapa just basically sheeped you in the end. Does it make sense to play like that if they are mafia?

[outoforder]

I don't know. I assume Aubrey has played with them, correct? I also assume Hapa hasn't, correct? If that's the case i don't see why they wouldn't.
The other thing in town!Aubrey lynch favored against town!Hapa lynch is that they then have BlackVoid who "derailed the lynch onto a townie" so you again have 2 pushable town wagons on D2.

But okay, let's say fitz and Hapa are mafia here. Why does Hapa vote Hawk "so easily"? Why not try to lynch someone like Kop (or no-lynch)?

I've actually been wondering about Hap's vote on Hawk. Logically, he

should

have been voting Kop. He suspected Kop throughout even towards the end of the day. He barely said anything about Hawk. So, why

wouldn't

a town-Hap argue for a Kop lynch? I'm thinking about the possibility he just cleanly bussed there so pressure then turns to the people who hesitated to vote Hawk (Rels, maybe KidAmn). I suppose it's also possible he just didn't think that a Kop lynch would happen there. But Kop already had three votes. Aubrey and Cass were online which would have made it six and when you showed up, you would have hammered (or I would have reluctantly hammered Kop). Hap had a chance to get a scumread lynched and voted someone else in their place.

The problem with him being scum regarding that imo is mainly the setup. You do not wanna lynch mafia on D1 because if your nightkill arms up on N1 you have a disasterous game. No matter how bad Hapa's scumplay is, he knows that. He doesn't know when i will show up. He knows at the time i suspected Kop. Why doesn't he take the risk of a town lynch or no-lynch? He voted at the point when for example cass was yelling you are scum and you are derailing the lynch. How can he, as mafia, ever expect town to lynch Hawk here?

[outoforder]

Like the easiest explanation i can think of is that he saw a good case and sheeped you.

[outoforder]

VOTE: Hawk

If we're not voting Aubrey, I'm fine with this. I don't remember anything he's posted, which according to my self-meta, probably means he's mafia.

Like this is a super suicidal post at the point it came out if Hapa is mafia. There is still Aubrey wagon, there are people discrediting you BV for "changing your mind so many times", not all of those people can even be mafia. Why does he just do this instead of doing ANYTHING else (he has already had his vote on BOTH Aubrey and Kop)?

[outoforder]

Is it normal for town-Hap to sheep?

idk to be honest.

[outoforder]

I havent played a game where we were both town in like 3 yrs.

[outoforder]

But still, there are very very serious problems with Rels' read progression on Creature, his read progression on Hapa, and his overall progression in reads.

[outoforder]

I agree Hapa looks the worst in the game right now. It feels superficial.
The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.
Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.
Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.
I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

I mean this post in itself is so fucking scummy it hurts

[outoforder]

401 looked like he was already planning for Hap to come back to the thread and look town

Yes! That is what caught my eye too when i took time to read his filter today. I agree i am terrible at reading Rels early on when he just agrees with me and doesn't do any retarded shit he sometimes does (mainly calls me out for some easily detectable bullshit reason). I jsut tend to ignore his posting and say he is town until he does something really townie (or not - like here, and i will go reread him).

Just look at this:

The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.

this is never something hapa said. this is rels' interpretation of what hapa said. i know i agreed with rels on this at the time, the difference is i was trying to figure out hapa's motives, rels never did any of that, just called him scum for it.

Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.

So what Rels basically says here cancels this argument totally. "Hapa is scum for attacking KidAmn for weak reasons and when he realizes they are weak reasons he is scum for that too." That's literally what happened if you think from a town!hapa point of view. There is no way to tell if hapa is scum making shit up or if he just blundered in the first place. But the fact is BOTH of these things in Rels' opinion make hapa mafia...

Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.

"Hapa is voting for havingfitz which i don't have a problem with but he is scum for it because easy target. I myself scumread people who are easy targets like KidAmn, Kop and FEC (a bit later on)." Rels should know better, he should know that being an easy target doesn't make anyone town, and suspecting someone who is "lurking" or an "easy target" doesn't make the person scum. It is an invented narrative to call someone scum based on something that doesn't make people scum.

I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

"I am not seeing obvious town hapa here and i didn't read him town at this point in the last game either" so... idk even know what to say here...

[outoforder]

Cause your filter, ISO, whatever you're calling that here, is awful.
The "I don't like this guy but I won't explain why 'cause it's just an impression but actually it wasn't very serious". Weird way to start the game.
The "LOOK IM PARTICIPATING" comment that you're making on the setup / way to play. While you don't have posts that matter yet. It looks like scum trying to appear being active. "RVS shouldn't be stopped!" "We shoudln't all arm the same night!"
Then the rest of your posts are useless but I don't care about that, townies can make useless posts. I really don't like these two points though

I find scum knowing where town is.

TBF you also look pretty bad there: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=27374
LOL this makes me think of your "MM WE SHOULD NOT ALL ARM THE SAME NIGHT" post though:

Funny, because as scum I try to look active but I end up lurking. As town it's like the opposite.

How the fuck can I find a scumgame of yours easily. This forum is hard to use

Creature had lots of shit posts in his town games too, especially early.

Caught up.
Hapa is scum.
Kop is most likely scum.
Aubrey rayn and hawk are townie.
Creature and doom are super town.
So most importantly Hapa is scum. Let's murder him.

Creature seems super town because he's posting all the time. When he's being townread by people with influence in the thread. He doesn't like being play, source : his wiki and his scum games. Here we have a mix of some I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity.
MAYBE he's tryharding. We'll see if he drops off. But he seems super town.

Now see this read progression:
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts
-> *goes reading his games*
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts as town too
->

MAGICALLY THOSE SHITPOSTS ARE NOT ANYMORE SHITPOSTS, NOW THEY ARE "I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity".

nononono Rels, you're scum here.

[outoforder]

forgot to say Creature went from scum to super town during that time in Rels' mind.

[outoforder]

Another fact is that Rels ignores me and my stuff basically ONLY when i am accusing his scumbuddy. I also know this doesn't apply here unless havingfitz is mafia, so there you go.

[outoforder]

You can go and take my filter and Rels' filter together and see who are the people Rels ignores and who not when you do that (that is a pretty damn nice feature on MS). <3

[outoforder]

Yeah that comment he made "HavingFitz is definitely lackluster but still an easy vote" feels like he wanted to call Hap out for voting Fitz without actually defending Fitz. That combined with Fitz's townread on Rels makes me think that could be the team so I'm looking forward to seeing Fitz elaborate there. I'm leaving now, I'll re-read the entire game tonight to rule out other possibilities. Hopefully, Rels and Hap post by then.

I generally dislike making conclusions about person A's alignment because of what mafia!B said about them. Mafia can defend/attack either townies or mafia, and when you're a townie and smart mafia "frames you" as their scumbuddy, it's pretty shittty if people believe that because you have no way of defending yourself. I hope you're not getting yourself onto this train where you come to conclusion about someone's alignment based up on what someone else said on them because it's just bad play in my opinion as smart mafia will always abuse that in a way or another.

What i mean is that comment doesn't mean anything about fitz' alignment, only on Rels'. And my conclusion is mafia because it doesn't make any sense for him to think what he expresses here. Basically all his suspicions on hapa in that post are "you did this or you did that but i will call you scum anyways" when actually one of the two possibilities highly likely points towards hapa being town.

Also, @outoforder, you seem to have played with scum-Rels a lot. How does he tend to treat his teammates?

no bussing, a lot of null-reading from what i remember (when there is no real suspicion = a big wagon on them).
I know it is true from this game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/4 ... rams-mafia
I think i have a couple of other games where he has been scum and i have been town, but i got too distracted with bad townies.

[outoforder]

Do you got backwards with your reads when reading more..

[outoforder]

EBWOP:
So you got...

Fuck phoneposting and touch screens

[outoforder]

You'd know where i stand on him if you read my filter. Town.

So you seriously are saying you voted to lynch mafia and after the dude flips mafia you are more lost than before?!?!?! That doesnt make any sense because being right should enforce you are on the right track and doing right things / making correct reads / associations, not the other way around.

[outoforder]

first, stop being so fucking aggressive. I'm talking to you so talk to me. Let's have a fucking discussion.

First, i am not "fuckign aggressive". Saying something doesn't make sense is not "fucking aggressive". Is this nowadays some 6 yr old kid's game where when you call people's bad posting bad they cry oceans?

Second, what there is to "discuss" then? Apparently questioning you about your motives isn't discussion in your opinion so i guess in your opinion this discussion word here means "if you think / would think i am town then who is mafia". Well if that's the case then our two scumreads are identical so i don't really know what there is to discuss? Like would we be trying to convince the other to think the person they already think is mafia is mafia?