Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[hapahauli]

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KidAmn

Yeah no. You do not get to call the early situation a "clusterfuck" and then throw fuel on the fire.

[hapahauli]

RVS is the meta here. You should join me in voting scum though.

How do you draw the conclusion that KidAmn was town from all that?

[hapahauli]

Since when does two enthusiastic posts make someone lean town? Town's gonna have a bad time if the bar for innocence is this low.

KidAmn calls the whole thing between myself, OoO, and Creature town. This makes very little sense first of all, since at that point I had posted once, and Creature wasn't interacting much with OoO at all. It was you (doomfeather) and OoO that were doing most of the talking.

Despite calling the whole argument "not productive" and "confusing", he jumps right into it and accuses OoO of backpedalling.

It does not follow that you can call a conversation not productive/confusing, and accuse someone of backpedalling on the basis of that very conversation.

[hapahauli]

doomfeathers does anything else stick out to you other than me atm?

If hapahauli thought you were scum, and knew you don't respond to pressure as scum, why would he pressure you? By your logic, you should be scumreading him.

Right. I also have 14 irl days to make a decision. Right now (as per my last post) his explanation is not satisfying at all.

What more of an explanation is there? I looked at the thread, saw a few votes on you, and thought "lel imma gonna vote him."

[hapahauli]

Now both of you need to describe to me how KidAmn's posting is town-readable.

[hapahauli]

Not reading properly =/= mafia.

Reading something as a "clusterfuck", criticizing it as confusing/pointless, and then engaging in said clusterfuck is likely mafia. The story is inconsistent. Posting for the sake of posting, etc.

[hapahauli]

Not reading properly =/= mafia.

Reading something as a "clusterfuck", criticizing it as confusing/pointless, and then engaging in said clusterfuck is likely mafia. The story is inconsistent. Posting for the sake of posting, etc.

Literally my only comment on that interaction was to say it was a clusterfuck and should not continue (and yes, for some reason I mixed Creature in there because I had been quoting him above to snark at his early posting, and because Rels literally hasn't posted this game, so apologies to Creature). I then moved on to a completely separate point about Ooo's refusal to give his own opinions until people have played his little mini-game.

I don't understand how that's separate. OoO's "mini-game" has everything to do with the fact that him, Rels, and I have played on other websites.

[hapahauli]

Huh. It looks like I mistyped:

KidAmn calls the whole thing between myself, OoO, and Creature town.

That was supposed to be:

KidAmn calls the whole thing between msyelf, OoO and Creature

unproductive to

town.

The next two sentences dont' make much sense without the added words.

That being said...

2nd is simply untrue again - as I explained before, the issue wasn't the conversation itself, but the refusal to discuss further with anyone else until the conversation happened, and the issue of backpedalling was that Ooo told DF to back off, then went back in #53 and tried to explain how he wasn't really telling him to back off

This makes sense.

UNVOTE:

[hapahauli]

Huh. It looks like I mistyped:

KidAmn calls the whole thing between myself, OoO, and Creature town.

That was supposed to be:

KidAmn calls the whole thing between msyelf, OoO and Creature

unproductive to

town.

The next two sentences dont' make much sense without the added words.

That being said...

2nd is simply untrue again - as I explained before, the issue wasn't the conversation itself, but the refusal to discuss further with anyone else until the conversation happened, and the issue of backpedalling was that Ooo told DF to back off, then went back in #53 and tried to explain how he wasn't really telling him to back off

This makes sense.

UNVOTE:

[hapahauli]

@ OoO

Regarding my "RVS" vote:
I absolutely would vote "for the lulz" for you. This is not TL - there are different expectations for voting, especially early on. Dropping a random vote is something I've seen so often here, that it feels natural to do so. You're right that there's no way I'd do it on TL as either alignment.

Regarding "the makes sense" comment:
I'm saying that KidAmn's story makes sense, and therefore I have no reason to continue voting him. His explanation for how he is tunneling you for separate reasons makes sense - not necessarily his read on you itself. A lot of cases I make on mafia are based on thought-process - whether the story someone is telling is inconsistent or contradictory. So here, I'm dealing entirely with KidAmn's thought process (which he showed wasn't contradictory). That has very little to do with the validity of his scumread on you. You're not a player I can generally read until later in the game anyway.

[hapahauli]

VOTE: havingfitz

I agree with Aubrey. Fitz's play feels a lot like what I've done as mafia in the past. He's asking a bunch of safe and pointless questions that aren't really productive one way or the other.

[hapahauli]

@ OoO

Regarding my "RVS" vote:
I absolutely would vote "for the lulz" for you. This is not TL - there are different expectations for voting, especially early on. Dropping a random vote is something I've seen so often here, that it feels natural to do so. You're right that there's no way I'd do it on TL as either alignment.

Regarding "the makes sense" comment:
I'm saying that KidAmn's story makes sense, and therefore I have no reason to continue voting him. His explanation for how he is tunneling you for separate reasons makes sense - not necessarily his read on you itself. A lot of cases I make on mafia are based on thought-process - whether the story someone is telling is inconsistent or contradictory. So here, I'm dealing entirely with KidAmn's thought process (which he showed wasn't contradictory). That has very little to do with the validity of his scumread on you. You're not a player I can generally read until later in the game anyway.

(1) Why? Why would you ever do that? Why would you "feel the need to feel natural" for something you don't feel comfortable with? I couldn't confirm this (if you actually do that - or if you are telling the truth here) in any way since all the games lately (in past 2 yrs) you have played here were games where you replaced in later on in the game. What do "different expectations" matter when you are dealing with a person who doesn't give any fucks about these "different expectations"?

I guess it's funny how environment influences play. It's not like I'm trying to do something natural for the sake of blending in. I've just seen so much of it reading games for the past month that dropping an RVS vote felt like second nature.

As far as expectations go, the vote isn't for your expectations. It's to try to create something in the thread worth reacting to. So me running up an "early game wagon" on you has a higher chance of provoking someone to post/comment on it than me dropping a vote on any other person.

This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

(2) But you were voting for him because his story was inconsistent in the first place, no? His story hasn't changed so how it suddenly became consistent?

It's precisely because he was repeating it that I unvoted him. He clearly demonstrated that he thought he was pressuring you on an issue separate from the "clusterfuck." And his thinking is all that matters.

[hapahauli]

This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

^

[hapahauli]

Rayn = OoO

Rayn (short for raynpelikoneet) is his screenname on TL.net, and I'm used to calling him that. I'll probably make that mistake a lot.

[hapahauli]

This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.

^

Okay, if i was to believe this is true, why didn't you say "2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people" in the second place?

Because describing a feeling is difficult.

You're working under an assumption that I thought through the RVS vote when I posted it. There wasn't much thought. It just felt right. And I'm just going to sound incoherent when I'm trying to describe what my gut was telling me to do in a situation. It wasn't until after you started questioning me on it that I spent any time thinking about what my gut feelz were.

[hapahauli]

Rela, Didnt you think I was mafia in our last game until hours before the D1 lynch?

[hapahauli]

[quote="In post 144,
Because describing a feeling is difficult.

You're working under an assumption that I thought through the RVS vote when I posted it. There wasn't much thought. It just felt right. And I'm just going to sound incoherent when I'm trying to describe what my gut was telling me to do in a situation. It wasn't until after you started questioning me on it that I spent any time thinking about what my gut feelz were.

Okay, i am trying to be as clear as i can here. My problem is that you first said your vote is for lulz. When you got called out of that - with reasoning that your original post where you voted for me doesn't really go along with the explanation, you give another explanation. When i ask you why didn't you give the second explanation in the first - or even in the second - place, you go back to the first explanation.

I mean, you did something for a reason. No matter how smart/dumb the reason is, for me it seems like when i ask you for the reason, you go from reason A to reason B from time to time.

There isn't anything for me to do but to continually rephrase myself until you get it.

Reason A and reason B are both true. But the core explanation is that I didn't put much thought into articulating my "feelz" until our conversation this morning. I gave reason A ("for the lulz") last night because it was partially true, stopped there, and at that point, the conversation was a distraction to talking about KidAmn (what I really wanted to do). I gave reason B in the morning, because you were latched onto the RVS thing, and that made me really develop my thoughts. When defending myself, I'm going to be as honest as possible, even it it doesn't always sound coherent on the surface.

As town, I just post and worry about the consequences later. It's not always going to be consistent on the surface, because a lot of it is feelz, and it often moves too fast for me to justify every little thing I do. As mafia, it's not difficult for me to bullshit something "consistent" and "easier to digest" here.

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE: Hapahauli
Shit i have to reconsider this.

Don't you wish it was that easy?

[hapahauli]

You're going to judge my alignment based on the quality of my reads later today anyway.

[hapahauli]

@ Fitz

And we get to the gist of me pining Aubrey. "trying to ask questions that don't exactly amount to much." This is the expansion of me "pinging" you. So my 6 posts in the first 2 pages of D1 are suspect because I am asking questions. WTF? Wait...asking questions surely isn't bad....it's that they don't amount to much (your opinion btw). Let's ISO/analyze those 6 posts.

19 - RVS on OoO (with a gameplay assist). No question.
24 - Asking Creature about his scum impression on Aubrey. HTF is that a bad question?
30 - Still engaged with Creature. A courtesy question to OoO followed by a question to understand his early hana suspicions...are they based on MS or a different site. And this is bad because?
34 - Banter with Doom and a thank to Creature for giving an actual response.
43 - Trying to figure out wth Creature is talking about when he says "there are many players being boring there". I thought he might have been referring to a different mafia site (ala TLM) and therefore possibly a 4th member of the TLM bunch.
51 - This is essentially a passive aggressive dig on my part at Doom to say he doesn't need anyone's approval to ask anything. This on the heels of a game we just played where I thought he put too much credence into the opinions of other players.

So there are my D1 first two page pre Aubrey pinging posts. Please let me know which questions you have issue with.

It's not any particular questions I have issues with. Asking questions isn't bad. Asking questions that don't accomplish much is scummy. Perhaps how valuable questions are is subjective, but multiple people have taken issue with it so far.

Also, there's an irony on calling OoO's post a hard to read wall of text, yet making one yourself that's arguably harder to read. For example, I have to read that whole post really carefully to arrive at any of your conclusions and reads. Care to comment?

[hapahauli]

Aubrey (or anyone else for that matter) - do you have experience playing with Fitz?

[hapahauli]

Rels is SlySly and SlySly's play here is town.

Rels is not SlySly. He's not an alt - it's his first game on the site.

hapahauli, Allomancer and Moogin can be my scumreads.

That's well and nice, but what's scummy about us?

[hapahauli]

V/LA until Monday (2/20)

Something came up, won't be around the thread for atleast 48 hours.

[hapahauli]

Getting back into the swing of things. Need a few hours to catch up.

[hapahauli]

After re-reading, I'm pretty sure

KidAmn

is mafia.

He has some contradictions in his filter that are difficult for me to reconcile from a town perspective.

Kid needs to make re-showing too.

I know, I do have a relatively busy life outside of this site though, especially on weekends.

Far too many people coasting along not posting at all right now.

F.E.C.'s complete lack of any content and then suddenly 4 posts in a row attacking Aubrey and Creature is all kinds of weird and feels a lot like someone maintaining the absolute minimum required to stay in the game - whether or not that's "scummy" is hard to say, but it's an incredibly anti-town way to play (and yes, there is a difference between "anti-town" and "scummy".
...

He's pretty critical of people "coasting", but that's basically what he's doing himself this game. He has 16 posts, most of which were made while defending himself from my early-game push against him. Scum love to criticize town for fucking up, but do nothing themselves to help the situation.

Secondly, probably the most substantial thing he has in his filter deals with his "read" on Creature:

Similarly something feels off to me about Creature - the rather blasé nature of their posting, throwing out town and scum-reads with little to no reasoning (looking at their ISO, their longest post is a whole 3 lines?)... it just comes across as the opposite of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - and certainly not a tale told by an idiot. It's deliberate and I dislike it, but unfortunately it matches up with looking at their posting in a couple of other games I've looked at. Having Allomancer as one of their scumreads despite them being so inactive they've picked up a prod also feels lazy as hell, as if they're covering themselves by saying "I had a scumread on Allomancer" for if/when a "fuck it, get rid of these lurkers" wagon happens.

I've been driving the wife around all day, cut a fella some slack on the meme game.
As for the vote - Honestly, right now I could go for F.E.C. or Creature, but I'm willing to give both a chance to respond (Creature more-so as my issue with him seems to just be

how he plays

). Moogin needs to contribute way more than they have so far, so not disagreeable to putting some pressure there either.

In the first post, he calls Creature mafia for questionable reasons. This isn't inherently scummy - I'd understand why a less experienced townie could call Creature mafia for his posting style.

However the second post is quite scummy.

He mentions supporting a vote on Creature, while giving good reasons to call creature town. He then finishes off by throwing Shade at a 3rd player. It's very hard for me to see this post coming from town.

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

There's no mention of why he thinks Creature could be more likely mafia than town. He basically acknowledges that all of his reasons to vote Creature are non alignment indicative, yet he clearly states that he would vote him.

[hapahauli]

Just in general, the posting-to-content ration of KidAmn is pretty off.

He spends a lot of time substantiating a non-read on Creature, defending himself from me, and criticizing Aubury's use of self-meta while doing absolutely nothing himself. The cherry on top is that he accuses too many people in the game of coasting.

VOTE: KidAmn

[hapahauli]

Fitz

still is probably my second strongest read. I did not like his "wall-o-text" catchup post in the least bit. It's like he made it intentionally super hard to read, while criticizing OoO's wall for being hard-to-read.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn.

[hapahauli]

I don't have strong mafia conclusions for #3. My best guess is

Kop

, because a lot of the "paranoid about Aburey" stuff reads as a front for activity. I also see Kop asking a lot of questions but drawing very few conclusions. The stuff he posted on Moogin is also hypocritical:

Hi, sorry, I know I said I was going to post more and then I disappeared. Last night and this morning got really busy so I didnt have time to participate. I'm free all weekend so I'll be on way more.

I think OoO and rels are town. I'm leaning towards creature being town as well.

I know it's scummy to not post or post sporadically, but I'm here now and I'll be here all weekend

Can you specify why you think they are town? Because if you have read through you'd have at least a few scum reads along with your town. It shouldn't take someone to prod you to find out where you are in terms of who you suspect.

For as much as he criticizes Moogin for not having scumreads, Kop actually doesn't have any documented scumreads of his own outside of the Aubrey early game thing.

Other than that,

Creature, Doomfeather, Aubry, and OoO are prob-town

.
- Creature's play is very loose and fearless so far. Posts like #241 show an impatience and desire for progress that's very genuine.
- Aubrey is clearly thinking about the game beyond a surface level. #367 for example, is very unnecessary from Aubrey from a scum perspective. She has very little reason to narrow down her lynch options when town-sentiment is otherwise. Lot's of other posts like that in her filter, where she's very clearly considering both sides of an issue.
- OoO has been the driving force behind the game so far, and that's incredibly difficult for mafia to fake. I've seen games where OoO was active and the lead poster as mafia, but noneso in a way as productive as this. In dealing with lurkers for example (Moogin, Kop, etc.), he's questioning them and trying to figure out their alignment rather than trying to actively discredit them.
- Doomfeather is just all-over-the-place in a very townie way. He's probably voted the entire player list, and seems like he's trying (but doesn't have it quite together). His posting reads a lot like a paranoid stream-of-consciousness.

I don't have significant thoughts or opinions on the rest of the playerlist.

[hapahauli]

Hapa. Tomorrow when i go through all this is there gonna be contradictions timelinewise? If i find one i am gonna call you scum. If i do not, youre town.

What do you mean? None of my reads are based on timelines or anything of that sort. I'm reading KidAmn and Fitz as mafia based on how they portray themselves in individual posts vs. their actions in the rest of their filter. I think Kop is suspicious because he's reading Moogin as mafia for something that could be said about his filter.

[hapahauli]

My baby girl was just born! Will be back later maybe earlier than tomorrow just felt like sharing!!!

Awesomeness! Congratulations!

Fitz

still is probably my second strongest read. I did not like his "wall-o-text" catchup post in the least bit. It's like he made it intentionally super hard to read, while criticizing OoO's wall for being hard-to-read.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn.

Here we see hapahauli listing reasons why his scumread might be wrong shortly after saying this:

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

Also, he's been criticizing hypocrisy. Please get your reads together, dude.

If hapahauli eventually flips scum, I think KidAmn is probably more likely town, and havingfitz and/or Kop are more likely to be scum. He could be distancing without having to vote one of them.

Now that I have an excuse:

VOTE: Kop

For how much people talk about voting him, nobody's been actually doing it.

There's nothing hypocritical about any of my reads.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

KidAmn never complained about OoO's post length.
KidAmn didn't do a catch-up wall of text.

How does that make sense?

[hapahauli]

I don't have a ton of time to respond to all this bullshit where Hapahauli runs back to his first scum-reads again to drum up a counter wagon instead of doing anything productive, so I'm just gonna make some things clear:

Lynching scum is pretty productive.

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

- The idea that being willing to give FEC and Creature a chance to respond to my issues is scummy is straight up bullshit. If giving people chances to respond is anti-town and making use of the time the town has to discuss things is anti-town then I want a ticket to whatever bizzaro world you're on. You also conveniently ignore that my issue isn't just with his style of posting, I also referred to the fact that he was throwing out town and scum reads with little reasoning behind them AND him throwing a town read on Allomancer who had done nothing of note all game

- You conveniently ignore that my other scum read at the time (FEC) was solidly based on a series of particularly scummy looking posts

PEDIT - as Doomfeather says you literally do the thing you accuse me of where you call kop scum and then list a bunch of reasons he could be town

In summary, bite my shiny metal ass
VOTE: Hapahauli

All of this is OMGUS and ignores why I actually think you're mafia. It's very deflectionary and dodges all the important points.

1) Sporadic posting isn't scummy. I'm a busy fellow too, and my posting has been pretty sporadic this game.

The issue is that you're calling out other people for coasting, yet you're doing so yourself.

2) What's damning about your play isn't the read on FEC, nor is it the read on Creature individually.

It's being willing to lynch creature, despite posting explicit reasons for why he could be town.

[hapahauli]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

Kop is not my second strongest read. Where do you get that?

[hapahauli]

Oh, and congrats Hawk!

[hapahauli]

You're not addressing my arguments, so I'm not sure which ones are "bullshit."

Even the fitz stuff I don't get.
- KidAmn is probably mafia.
- Fitz is probably mafia.
- There's some margin for error in my read because of reasons 1 and 2.
- Reasons 1 and 2 don't apply to KidAmn
- Therefore I'm voting KidAmn

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

Which part of this applies to you?

[hapahauli]

I understand what Doom is pointing out. It just bad.

My thought process:
- I think Fitz is mafia.
- There's some slight margin for error in my read, hence me wanting to kill KidAmn first.
- On balance, Fitz is still probably mafia.

Your thought process:
- You think Creature is anti-town and mafia for his posting.
- You point out that all his posting he's done in his town games and is probably non alignment indicative.
- Therefore, you still support voting Creature?

The issue is that you have

no evidence

for saying Creature is mafia, and you want to vote him purely based on the non-alignment indicative reasons you already pointed out in your own filter.

[hapahauli]

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Fitz

still is probably my second strongest read. I did not like his "wall-o-text" catchup post in the least bit.

It's like he made it intentionally super hard to read,

while criticizing OoO's wall for being hard-to-read.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn.

The bolded is weird. Why would Fitz do something obviously bad ?
About 1), didn't you say you already played in this forum ? Why are you not aware of that ?

Regarding Fitz, I didn't explain that very well. I say "intentionally designed to look bad" more to illustrate a point. The post is so comically hard to read and get anything useful out of, that he may as well have designed it to look bad.

Regarding "having played on the forum before"... my game history here is pretty unconventional. The only full game I've played here (started beginning of Day 1) happened a few years ago. Don't remember that game too much. Other than that, I've replaced in a few games here over the last few months. All those games were town, and actually no one had any problems with me bombing walls-of-text. This is the first game I've seen the anti wall of text thing mentioned, but given how many players have mentioned it so far, I'm thinking it could be a meta think I haven't been exposed to until now.

[hapahauli]

This is the first game I've seen the anti wall of text thing mentioned, but given how many players have mentioned it so far, I'm thinking it could be a meta think I haven't been exposed to until now.

I don't think (though could be wrong) that "

big walls of text = scum

" is a very common thought process here. I for one don't gravitate towards that mindset. Younger Aubrey walled the shit outa his games as town.

It's more the "

big walls of text = anti-town / annoying

" mentality that I'm getting at.
Anyway, I don't want to get in the mindset of defending Fitz. I think he's mafia. I super regret posting the "margin of error" on my read, because that's all that people latched onto.

There are a couple of good cases in the thread right now. I think the town should be moving towards consolidating on one of Fitz/Kop/KidAmn.

Huge walls of text is kinda frowned upon though. Like the one Fitz posted. Like holy shit, condense your thoughts a bit. I shouldn't have to go through ALL OF THAT just to locate every little thing that he asked me, when you can just group all your thoughts on a player in one specific area of a post. That is where editing needs to be considered before posting.

What updates on Fitz? Also, what do you make of KidAmn and Kop? I haven't heard you talk much about them in a while. I'd like your comments on my case in particular.

[hapahauli]

@ Fitz

hapa is suspect because 1) a town read for me (Rel) and a TBD for me but generally townread OoO both appear extremely confident in their suspicions of hapa. For more gut I would say than solid fact but familiarity does deserve consideration. I also really dislike the way hapa eased on to my wagon in support of the Aubrey (crap) suspicions towards me and then seemed to backtrack on the crux of Aubrey's case (my questions) and say it wasn't any particular questions more so than that multiple people had issue with them. Oh...and that I ironically warned OoO against wall posting in my wall post.

Rels and OoO definitely are NOT confident in their suspicion of me. Rels recently unvoted me. OoO mentioned that my posting is probably town unless I'm being super misleading about something in my case.

There's not a lot of substance for reading me as mafia here other than that I'm suspicious of you.

[hapahauli]

Also, I don't think people realize just how damning the evidence is against KidAmn.

KidAmn doesn't give a shit about voting someone for non alignment indicative reasons, and that's a glaring mafia trait. It does not make sense from a town perspective to:
a) Point out reasons why someone could be mafia and anti-town.
b) Call those same reasons non-alignment indicative
c) Vote a player based on those very non-alignment indicative reasons.

Townies want to lynch mafia. Mafia want to make excuses to lynch townies. KidAmn clearly falls in the latter category here.

[hapahauli]

I don't care much if people call me mafia. I DO care when people aren't reading the goddamn thread enough to see what's pretty egregious mafia mentality by KidAmn.

[hapahauli]

Also, I don't think people realize just how damning the evidence is against KidAmn.

KidAmn doesn't give a shit about voting someone for non alignment indicative reasons, and that's a glaring mafia trait. It does not make sense from a town perspective to:
a) Point out reasons why someone could be mafia and anti-town.
b) Call those same reasons non-alignment indicative
c) Vote a player based on those very non-alignment indicative reasons.

Townies want to lynch mafia. Mafia want to make excuses to lynch townies. KidAmn clearly falls in the latter category here.

I remember him attempting to push Creature at one point. He basically said, "

your doing X which is scummy, but it could also be your play style

." Then I guess he said something along the lines of he'd be willing to vote him or something. Whatever. What was important that caught my eye here was; if he were scum wanting to push an easy slot, then why would he even remotely weaken his own argument against creature? I'd push that shit hard (ignoring his meta) and just keep bitching about how it isnt all that proactive for town blah blah blah.

I think he is town, who didn't know where to really put his vote at the time, and was just talking out loud.

Ialso think you are exploiting an easy push here.

Whether this is scum or townie blinded by his own head I have yet to discern (and honestly I still need to take a deeper re-read of what all was talked about yesterday and your case). I do know if you are still alive and both Fitz and Kid end up dead as town,

You're going to be a solid number 1 target of interest for me.

Just blasting out my thoughts.

The bolded is absolute horse-shit.

Do you know who the easiest push in this thread is? Putting soft suspicion on me, while openly saying you haven't actually considered anything I read.

So go read my case, and go fuck yourself.

[hapahauli]

Rels and OoO definitely are NOT confident in their suspicion of me. Rels recently unvoted me. OoO mentioned that my posting is probably town unless I'm being super misleading about something in my case.

There's not a lot of substance for reading me as mafia here other than that I'm suspicious of you.

Iirc they have both been on you fairly aggressively most of the game. And OoO is still voting you and appears to be putting a case together on you. Rels has moved on for the moment but I'd rather him removing his suspicions towards you.

@hapa....have Rels or OoO ever mislynched you?

And just being suspicious of me isn't suspect. It's the disjointed adoption of Aubrey's "pinging" sensations towards me that I find suspect.

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Disjointed adoption? What does that even mean?

Aubrey brought up a point about how a lot of your early game questioning was useless. I agreed. Your first wall-o-text re-enforced my read, since it was long, incoherent, and drew no useful conclusions.

[hapahauli]

...
ooo town
doomfeathers town
hawk townie
aubrey nulltown
havingfitz null
kop null
kidamn null
rels nullscum
creature scummy
moogin scum

hapa scum

VOTE: hapahauli

L-3

It's apparently cool to call people scum without reasons.

What is even the case on me? That I was V/LA for a few days? That Rels and OoO called me mafia and basically rescinded their mafia read on me?

[hapahauli]

If you'd like me to be nicer, perhaps try actually reading what I post.

Because your unwillingness to give me this basic courtesy makes dealing with you unbearable and not worth my time.

[hapahauli]

This is your daily reminder that no one actually has reasons to call me mafia.

[hapahauli]

You're showing shockingly little interest in conversing with your top scumread, Cassielle.

[hapahauli]

readslist based on a light read under conditions of sleep deprivation

ooo town
doomfeathers town
hawk townie
aubrey nulltown
havingfitz null
kop null
kidamn null
rels nullscum
creature scummy
moogin scum

hapa scum

im not voting yet however
...

No reasons.

...

hapa feels like coasting scum, sort of just a tone read, lot of communicating around people and subject dodging

I "feel" like coasting scum. No justification.

thats thin reasoning

1 act (even if it is a consistent one) is not enough to lynchvote someone. pressurevote, ok. but. but, town could easily be in a state where theyre uneasy throwing votes around in case scum push the wagon home on a ML and theyre not confident enough to single out a read and say "this is the one". among other things

im not defending the slot, im saying your vote has poor justification. you should remedy that and build a better case imo... although kop's slot has pretty small amounts of meaningful content to read, so it might not be possible

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

Creature is bussing me because (reasons not found).

i have offsite experience (not a ton but enough) and ive read a lot of games, both in realtime and otherwise

im not an alt, but i am (i guess, in a sense) experienced, i just havent been drowned in site meta much so occasionally i come off the opposite (noob)

i dont usually like pre-flip associatives unless i scumread all slots involved, and then its to say "and which one of these is the best for today", but heres the gist of where that goes:
hapa is active, not making a very good showing for himself, and generally stinks of scumplay
creature is lurky, pushing other folks wagons with no original reasoning, and playing to his scum meta (which most players here seem unaware of)

this means hapa will not be much harder to point at d2, and creature can probably hide among the townies d2, not to mention that a scum slot defending creature d2 could very well push "lurking is nai" (true but irrelevant) and save his slot from the lynch before we recognized what was happening. on the other hand hapa is so widely scumread that i'd bet even bucks his non-creature partner was already on wagon when creature joined (and that both will be on wagon if hes the lynch du jour)

i scumread them both, and creature and hapa have been distancing in a very artificial way (as you yourself noticed) from game start, and hapa is getting the short end of the stick there
this tells me hapa is the designated scumteam scapegoat, and that tells me that creature is the one to take out of the two due to the scumteam thinking hes a stronger player for them -- IF my scumreads are both correct.

however, its important to note, i dont think its incredibly super important of the order. id like creature d1 but if he coasts i dont think town suffers much now that ive pointed at why it would be risky, and hapas the easy lynch with scum quite possibly helping push it. my preference for the creature wagon isnt strong, it just exists

Creature is bussing me because (reasons not found).

[hapahauli]

There's no way you think like this as town. You're more interested in calling me mafia than actually finding out what my alignment is.

Calling me your top scumread, and pushing Creature in significant part based on him "bussing me" before I flip is nonsense and scummy bullshit.

VOTE: Cassielle

[hapahauli]

What's more likely here? That I went into this game screaming at my team to bus me? Or that there are quite a few mafia members suspicious of me for super sketchy reasons that don't make sense anymore.

It's very clear that Cassielle is mafia. How she's tunneling me is not confirmation bias. She's suspicious of me because it's the popular thing to do, and never had any interest in figuring out my alignment.

[hapahauli]

You all are looking for the convenient, "easy" person to lynch rather than the people that are actually suspicious.

I can barely defend myself because there's nothing to defend. There is no case. The only case I've seen is that two people familiar with my playstyle (Rels and OoO) thought I was suspicious early game, and now they don't. Yet the votes on me are still reyling on that.

[hapahauli]

What's more likely here? That I went into this game screaming at my team to bus me? Or that there are quite a few mafia members suspicious of me for super sketchy reasons that don't make sense anymore.

It's very clear that Cassielle is mafia. How she's tunneling me is not confirmation bias. She's suspicious of me because it's the popular thing to do, and never had any interest in figuring out my alignment.

Or you're her strongest scum-read and she wants to get the wagon on you to the end on a long D1. Not to mention that the scum having day-talk makes your first point null and void since as the wagon on you grew you could very easily as scum say to your team "bus me while looking for other wagons we can derail on in case the town can't finish the job here". Also, repeatedly stating "there's no real case on me whaarblgarble ur all trash" does not make this true.

Of course it's true. What's the case? No one's posting it.

For example, you're suspicious of me because of reasons Doomfeather already retracted.

[hapahauli]

What's more likely here? That I went into this game screaming at my team to bus me? Or that there are quite a few mafia members suspicious of me for super sketchy reasons that don't make sense anymore.

It's very clear that Cassielle is mafia. How she's tunneling me is not confirmation bias. She's suspicious of me because it's the popular thing to do, and never had any interest in figuring out my alignment.

Is your only case against Cassielle that she is tunneling? Cause if so that's a pretty weak case, and basically just OMGUS....

Give me a read list because I haven't seen much from you besides blargh blargh OMGUS, I'm not Scum blargh blargh!

No, it's the way she's going about it.

The confidence to analysis ratio is off. She says she has a "tone read" based on me ignoring certain things on the thread, which is completely unsubstantiated. Yet she's treating me like confirmed mafia and not trying to talk to me.

The only reasonable conclusion is that she's pushign the agenda that I'm mafia, and doesn't actually believe that I am.

[hapahauli]

When I'm saying there's no case on me, I mean it.

Let's take a look at some of the votes this game on me:

This is the shit I'm dealing with this game:

------------------------------------------------------------------

Doomfeathers:

Let it hereby be known that I would vote hapahauli at this point if I didn't want to keep the day going for a while yet.

Willing to vote me.

Calls me hypocritical here. Admits that this is wrong here and here

Finds it hard to remember my posting" yet in the same post, remembers me defending myself. Also accuses me of defending myself too much, which is absurd considering I've been leading suspicion all game.

------------------------------------------------------------------

KidAmn:

Calls me mafia for being "dense" because I don't grasp Doomfeather's analysis, yet Doomfeather freely admitted that his analysis was wrong (see section above).

------------------------------------------------------------------

Cassielle:

...

hapa feels like coasting scum, sort of just a tone read, lot of communicating around people and subject dodging

Says I "feel like coasting scum." Never substantiates this. Treats me as confirmed mafia without attempting to converse with me since, and does so much as to call Creature mafia based on a bussing theory with me.

------------------------------------------------------------------

OoO:

And Hapa is still the best lynch. Just because we are not talking about him doesn't erase that.

I agree with this again.
In fact i agree with it this much:
VOTE: Hapahauli

Calls me scum, largely because I had been V/LA for three days and not posting at all in thread.

Hapa. Tomorrow when i go through all this is there gonna be contradictions timelinewise? If i find one i am gonna call you scum. If i do not, youre town.

Then openly states that my catch-up post makes me town if there are no contradictions in the timeline (to which no one has found any, and Doomfeather's "catch" doesn't count for reasons explained above.).

------------------------------------------------------------------

Creature:

hapahauli isn't showing his potential.

I'm mafia because I'm not "showing my potential." Unclear what this even is.

------------------------------------------------------

Havingfitz:

hapa is suspect because 1) a town read for me (Rel) and a TBD for me but generally townread OoO both appear extremely confident in their suspicions of hapa. For more gut I would say than solid fact but familiarity does deserve consideration. I also really dislike the way hapa eased on to my wagon in support of the Aubrey (crap) suspicions towards me and then seemed to backtrack on the crux of Aubrey's case (my questions) and say it wasn't any particular questions more so than that multiple people had issue with them. Oh...and that I ironically warned OoO against wall posting in my wall post.

Reason 1 is wrong. Rels retracted his read on me. OoO (see above).

Reason 2 is OMGUS.

Sadly, fitz probably has the most substantial reasoning of anyone that's been voting me.

That's really sad.

------------------------------------------------------

I could go on into non-voters but the point should be clear.

What exactly is the case on me?

[hapahauli]

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

[hapahauli]

hapahauli isn't showing his potential.

I've been reading through

Kop's

filter.

I understand why people think he's scummy, and I had my own reasons for suspecting him as well. But I have two huge misgivings about his lynch:
1) Literally everyone thinks that he's suspicious. There isn't any resistance, even from people on my wagon. Mafia decided to bus him from the beginning of the game and provide no resistance? I doubt it.
2) What's his agenda? He isn't pushing anything period. There's no survival instinct. He could be pushing me pretty damn easy, but he's not. And even if you think we're both mafia, you think he'd be pushing literally any alternative to his lynch.

My feeling is that me vs. Kop is TvT, and scum are lulzing picking sides. Hence I'd rather be lynching people on the wagons rather than the wagons themselves.

[hapahauli]

No way cassy looks town to you. How does she read me as mafia as strongly as she does with the reasons she posted? How does she push Creature instead as an associative bussing theory instead of the guy the theory relies on (me)?

[hapahauli]

I'm a lightning-rod for scum and incompetence.

[hapahauli]

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

Again,

why am I mafia?

You literally have no reasons that haven't been discredited. The only thing I can find in your filter is that I'm "defending myself too much", which all of my WAT.

[hapahauli]

No way cassy looks town to you. How does she read me as mafia as strongly as she does with the reasons she posted? How does she push Creature instead as an associative bussing theory instead of the guy the theory relies on (me)?

she's trying to solve the game and that shows. Or she's faking it well. She says things that are weird but the way she's talking abuot a lot of things is super townie

She's very clearly not if you're reading her read on me.

[hapahauli]

stop defending yourself bro. Show me your logic like you did before

GEEZUS CHRIST it's NOT OMGUS. If it was OMGUS, I'd need to be some insane power role with 90 votes.

I don't care that she's scum-reading me. It's HOW.

Always HOW.

Weigh the reasons WHY someone is scumreading a person and their emotions while doing so vs. the CONFIDENCE they have in their read.

The confidence that Cassy has, does not match with her reasons, tone, and approach to the game. And I'll keep saying that until you get it through your skull, whether or not you call it OMGUS>.

[hapahauli]

My emotions in that game made me ragequit. I am not making that mistake again. Also, the fact I don't ahve to deal with Vivax is a large improvement over anything mafiascum can throw at me idiot-town wise.

[hapahauli]

I doubt Hapa's personal goal is to get lynched. To whoever suggested that.

See I'm in some catch 22 of hell.

I defend myself ---> LOLOL HAPA FLAILING

I call people mafia ---> LOLOL OMGUS WE NO READ UR POSTS U SO MAF

[hapahauli]

And of course any emotions and frustrations I show now are invalid because Rels already called out how "emotionless" my posting is.

[hapahauli]

And what people don't understand about the OMGUS cases is that I'm in a very unique position this game, since every fucking person in the game is reading me as mafia. How people are calling me mafia is extremely relevant. Probably some of the most relevant information in the thread. And if for whatever reason you lynch me and I flip town, it'll be the most important information for you to look at D2.

[hapahauli]

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

Again,

why am I mafia?

You literally have no reasons that haven't been discredited. The only thing I can find in your filter is that I'm "defending myself too much", which all of my WAT.

I'm pretty sure I didn't use those words. If you're going to quote me, say what I said, please.

First, you've used a lot of time on obscure arguments over activity on another site. This was irrelevant to anyone who hasn't played on that site, which is all but three of us, I think. Second, you seem hypersensitive to criticism; you tend to overreact to investigation, which is often an indicator of guilt. Third, you lately have made maybe one or two posts that weren't either screaming at people to get off your back or wild shots fired at those who scumread you. If you're not interested in finding scum, you likely are scum.

Hypersensitive?! Do you enjoy being called mafia wrongfully and for shit reasons? I certainly don't.

Secondly, I'm very damn interested in finding scum. Again, my catch 22 of hell applies here.
I defend myself ---> WASTING TIME HAPA
I call mafia ----> (my posts are ignored)
I do nothing ----> HAPA YOU'RE MORE ACTIVE AS TOWN ZOMG

So naturally, I'm super fucking hypersensitive to this, because no matter what I choose, I am read as mafia, and no one takes my cases seriously.

And if you're wondering if you should take me seriously, ask Rels or OoO about my success rate in lynching mafia D1.

[hapahauli]

KidDamn had an horrible defense against your case Hapa, then had 3 worthless posts since. Why are you not pushing him ?

I.
Don't.
Even.

[hapahauli]

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

What about off your wagon. Who's scum off your wagon. (besides Kop who is still off all wagons!!)

What about this?

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Plenty of other people worth debating was who? Fitz and KidDamn? You've given soft townreads to Fitz and Doom now do you're back on KidDamn and FEC's slot which you had said it was a cop out lynch? Cassiele's once through and the scum pick on you is difference enough to push as scum #1?

I get your frustrated but OMGUS cases don't paint you in the best light if you flip town well fuck. :/ Rels do you really think this could be TvT you know Hapa better than me or this possibly TvS?

Yes, my reads evolve with new information. Grass is green. Sky is blue.

Frederick was an inactive lurker for most of the game. I didn't think anything he did was alignment indicative. A lynchbaity type player who was going to be replaced by a more active player later on.

Cassy was the "more active" player who replaced in, and is also probably mafia based on her entrance.

[hapahauli]

Cass's posts have seemed pretty relatable to me, and I think I'm town. I'm townreading her and Aubrey for about the same reasons.

OK that's a start. What posts and opinions in particular?

I doubt Hapa's personal goal is to get lynched. To whoever suggested that.

See I'm in some catch 22 of hell.

I defend myself ---> LOLOL HAPA FLAILING

I call people mafia ---> LOLOL OMGUS WE NO READ UR POSTS U SO MAF

That's misrep. Are you scumreading people for scummy things, or because they're wagoning you? And for the record, I'm not completely convinced you're scum.

No misrep. That's what's going on.
I'm scumreading people for scummy things. If I was scumreading people for calling me mafia, I'd have to call everyone mafia.

And of course any emotions and frustrations I show now are invalid because Rels already called out how "emotionless" my posting is.

Though you're not helping me townread you very much. Ending the pity party would go a long way.

I'd love to talk about scumreads if people want to talk about scumreads. But getting people talking about my cases is like pulling teeth.

[hapahauli]

VOTE: KidDamn

[hapahauli]

Also needs to die. Rels #726 makes me think I'm just confirmation baised on Cassy and not reading her carefully enough. Will be back with more on her.

[hapahauli]

@ Doom

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

Stuff like the bolded is gasoline on a flame war. I defend myself, give opinions on 3 players (including 2 scumreads), and you say I'm wasting time defending myself and not doing anything else. Then I'm "flailing."

I will only respond in hostility to that.

---------------------------------------------

Anyway. Productivity. Do you have a reason not to vote KidDamn?

Also, those posts on Cassy I asked you for before?

[hapahauli]

Eh. Reading through Cassy's filter, it seems like I was just tilted and misrepping her really hard. I'm going to mulligan on that read and try again tomorrow.

@HAPA

what if i tell you you have been pocketed and one or two of your townreads are scum

who do you pick

If you're asking which of my town-reads have the greatest margin for error, probably Creature/Fitz/Kop. But you're asking me to discredit my own analysis of the game which doesn't really accomplish much for me or anyone else.

[hapahauli]

@Hap, is there a reason your play here is different from the play I've seen from you in the Mini we played together? There and in Dierfire's Mini Normal, you replaced in, made a case on a single player and pushed the lynch through. Here, you seem to have a wider focus on a lot of different players. I think part of that could be playing from the beginning and being under pressure but it would help if you could link to a towngame where you played similarly here or at TL.

Also, if you keep track of stats, how often do you survive as scum and have you ever been lynched D1 as scum?

These aren't similar situations. As a replacement, you have a ton of information to work with. I can make strong conclusions on a day or more of play, and push a lynch through. When you're involved in a game from early Day 1, you have less information, so you'll naturally be changing your mind a lot more, especially early.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/3 ... a-database
You can Ctrl+F for "hapahauli" and scroll down. There are plenty of town games that you'll see me generally being all-over-the-place on Day 1. Day 1 for me is a way to find out information. I do this by pushing cases and establishing reads. I almost never lock onto a scumread early Day 1 in any of my town games.

I have 5 mafia games and 2 anti-town 3rd party games. The only mafia game I've ever survived to the end was in my first scum newbie game. I have been lynched Day 1 as mafia.

[hapahauli]

While this game has been mostly infuriating, I'd prefer not to get kicked out. Lynch me if you must. Going to catch up briefly.

I'll say exactly one thing and only one thing in my defense: townies who are suspicious of me should be very skeptical about the lack of resistance. To believe I'm mafia, you have to accept that literally everyone (including my "scumbuddies") were comfortable lynching me from the second they posted.

I'll be reading the last few pages and deciding on who I want dead. Ask away.

[hapahauli]

Well on the bright side BV, that doesn't look like the scum-game I played with you at all.

[hapahauli]

Good lord this game leads a man to drink heavily and it's only 9:39 in the morning. I'm done for today. Lynch me. Straight up don't give a shit anymore.

pre-edit: it's likely a fucking town with his head up his arse.

Welcome to my life.

[hapahauli]

I've been putting up with this shit for almost 2 weeks. You've barely lasted 2 hours.

[hapahauli]

Can we just lynch Kop? Where is he in all of this madness?

[hapahauli]

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

I understand why it's bad, but does bad reads make someone mafia? Reading his filter, it also seemed like he was trying to actually consider my alignment and changing his opinion, which makes me think he's just awkward town.

[hapahauli]

VOTE: Kop

[hapahauli]

Hapa are you around for some time?

I'm around for at least an hour. Should be more active later tonight to avoid a no-lynch.

[hapahauli]

My attention is split between reading BV's case on Aubrey and re-reading Fitz.

@ OoO

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

I understand why it's bad, but does bad reads make someone mafia? Reading his filter, it also seemed like he was trying to actually consider my alignment and changing his opinion, which makes me think he's just awkward town.

Yes it usually does. When did he do that? Like now when we have some dumbasses yelling we cant lynch anyone but you??? Sounds like a safe place to start "reconsidering a read"...

Perhaps it is safe, but it is still super unnecessary. Also, when he was actively considering his read on me, it's not like the town was ready to lynch me. This whole wagon on me has actually been pretty apathetic, and there are at least a few times times where a bit of safe support from fitz could have probably pushed me to the gallows.

Seems like we are having a different opinion on fitz so i am not really sure how i can sway you if what i have already said doesn't do it.
Your read on Creature. Go. Where do you get him being scum from?

Creature? I hadn't been reading him as mafia.

The non-chalant-ness makes me think he's town. I replaced into a game a few weeks ago where he behaved almost identically as town. One lined posts, didn't really give much of a shit about what other people thought. Just did his thing.

[hapahauli]

@OoO

What do you consider particularly damning about Fitz's read progression? You should know that stuff making sense =/= mafia.

I'd rather be lynching into Kop, mostly because there's hypocrisy and contradiction in his filter, combined with his play looking like he's laying low through the important thread events.

[hapahauli]

Did Aubrey ever play like this as scum before?

Actually, Aubrey's read progression on me doesn't make a lot of sense.

[hapahauli]

Cause it's obvious Hapa is the lynch of the day. Nobody else is going to get lynched. He is the scummiest looking and everybody else has to many if's and but's.

To be voting people like Kop Fitz and anybody else is a complete and total waste unless it is between you and him. The lynch is between you and Hapa for the day and that is a fact. I've made my decision.

You seriously think someone other than Hapa or yourself will get enough momentum to be a serious candidate for today? I think not.

Stuff like this. Aubrey had spent the last few days expressing doubts about my alignment. But conveniently, the lynch has to be between Rels and Myself. Because we're the "scummiest".

#924 - Votes me, basically talking about flip flop.
#932 - "Flipflopped on hapa all day"

#935 - Says he has no strong case on anyone.

#938 - Says he's shown "doubt" about her read on me.
#959 - Attacks Cassie for being "too sure" that I'll flip mafia.

I think these are damning to her mentality. Why is he so insistent on narrowing the lynch down between Rels and myself, if he has no strong cases, is generally unsure about the game, and is relentlessly flipflopping on his reads?

He just doesn't give a shit, and wants the town to squabble between two townies for ????? reasons.

[hapahauli]

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

To be fair, I understand your point on Hapa. But I think we gain more information from the Rels lynch.

I think Doom could be the outsider in all of this, but I don't think he will be put forward as a candidate today.

Hapa, you know your alignment. Why does Kop make this post as mafia?

With that particular post? He had already committed to lynching Rels so it's not like he can change his mind.

But I do see your point that his whole Rels push is the opposite of opportunistic. It's not like he couldn't just vote me and fan the flames.

[hapahauli]

OoO, What makes Aubrey town to you beyond the early game "genuine" posts? I got the same vibes, but I've been fooled many times by things like that before. I think the read progression doesn't come from town, especially from a player that seems competent at this game.

VOTE: Aubrey

[hapahauli]

Like i literally jsut got lynched because Palmar claimed (or not - but people thought he did) a red check on me. That was the only reason anyone had in suspecting me, except that they didn't even necessarily believe Palmar is a cop. That doesn't make any fucking sense to base a read on something you dont even believe is true, but wanna guess what alignment those people were?

It's Palmar. That invalidates any comparison to anyone.

[hapahauli]

I think his frustration is genuine, just like yours before. I am sorry i can't give a better answer, i just don't think he's mafia. For me it looked like he wanted to have it his way and when it didn't work out he just got mad. I don't think scum do that quite often.

You don't get frustrated when things don't go your way as mafia?

[hapahauli]

[....]I'd replace out, but that would be completely unfair to whoever takes over my slot.

I mean whoever writes this as mafia should feel terrible and i have no interest in playing with them anymore so i just have to think they are town.

Where's the dick move in this?

I understand what you mean, and I've seen it from people like KidAmn this game. Also things like rage self voters are in this category as well.

But Aubrey's post here doesn't really compare to that at all. I also don't understand the rage-to-"not-getting-your-way" ratio here. Why rage with two votes on you? When I'm still the lead wagon?

[hapahauli]

Off for now. Be back later tonight.

[hapahauli]

Hello, I am here for blood.

[hapahauli]

@ BV

Is your reason to not lynch Kop mainly that you're convinced Hawk/Fitz are mafia? Or is there some Kop town thing I'm missing.

[hapahauli]

VOTE: Hawk

If we're not voting Aubrey, I'm fine with this. I don't remember anything he's posted, which according to my self-meta, probably means he's mafia.

[hapahauli]

Well, we need Cassie+1 to lynch.

[hapahauli]

Don't worry, you can always tunnel me tomorrow.

[hapahauli]

Prod dodge. Will catch up in the afternoon, haven't had time to do much of anything this week.

[hapahauli]

Hello. Reading. Just wrapped up another game, which was the priority.

[hapahauli]

Fitz/Rels

Nothing to add about Fitz regarding OoO's case. He got his hand caught in the cookie jar with his Aubrey read.

Rels is just pushing mafia objectives in the thread. Was fairly cavalier about the D1 lynch. I think basically everyone else is town. Kop is the margin for error here.

VOTE: Fitz

[hapahauli]

@Hap, when you voted Hawk, were you still scumreading Aubrey?

Yes. The vote on Hawk was because it was my best chance at consolidation, and I also thought he had a solid chance of flipping mafia based on how much of a non-entity he had been.

And give me more than just "it's Fitz/Rels and it's obvious." I could see them potentially being scum and I could also see you as scum and anything to help get a better read would be appreciated.

Blatantly sheeping OoO on Fitz.

As for Rels, his sequence between ISO #96 to #123 is extremely suspicious. I'm on my phone, so I can't point out the specific posts. But you'll see him go through and throw shade at a variety of players, conclude that scum is between all of them (Kop, Myself, Aubrey, Hawk, etc), and draw no conclusions about who to push whatsoever.

[hapahauli]

I didn't read the EoD very much. I was traveling all day, got on my phone, skimmed the thread, and did what I needed to do to consolidate.

I never think in associations when I make Day 1 votes. I always base it on someone's play, and just go from there. Hawk had a reaosnable chance of flipping mafia.

Even if you think my EoD doesn't make sense as town, how does it make sense as mafia? When I get back into the thread as mafia-hapa, I have so many options. It's not like the hawk wagon has clear momentum and is guarenteed to happen. You're saying I'd bus my partner in a setup that heavily disincentives bussing over voting Kop, staying on Aubrey, or just not showing up in the thread at all.

[hapahauli]

You're forcing the facts to fit your narrative.

[hapahauli]

Okay, how about you explain why Hawk voted Rels when the wagon was picking up as a counterwagon to you? If Rels is the partner, Hawk had plenty of other options there.

Making a vote a few hours before LYLO and in the middle of a day are two very different scenarios. One is effectively a death sentence, the other is not.

And you seem to have played with Rels a lot. Why didn't you say anything about his alignment when he was pushing you for a good part of D1? You were mostly just trying to convince him that you were town. You only throw him out there as a scumread now when it's looking like he might be a possible suspect.

I've played with Rels once.

[hapahauli]

Is that hammer?

[hapahauli]

Look at how adorable I am. Why did you club me to death?

[hapahauli]

Confirmed cheeky bastard reporting in!

I'm fine with the mafia PT being released. A lot of it is

"everything is going alright, things will be fin---- PANIC PANIC PANIC [inactivity]"

.

This town was pretty brutal on Day 1. One of the more active towns I've seen on this site. It didn't help that a lot of the mislynch targets for mafia were being replaced by very good players. BlackVoid coming in and shitting town rainbows was especially painful. There weren't enough players to fall for the easy mislynches, and we had very few options other than pushing bad cases or fellow mafia members. I chose the latter and fell flat on my face in doing so D:

[hapahauli]

If you need the town to consider your cases and alignment rationally and calmly, you have to do your part to create that rational and calm atmosphere. The only person who really did that well on D3 was BlackVoid.

[hapahauli]

Can't we all just get along?