Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[doomfeathers]

Vote: Allomancer

because I don't trust anyone who dabbles in the dark arts of allosauruses

VOTE: KidAmn

Dinosaurs will someday rule this world. You don't want to be on their bad side, imbecile.

(The above is a joke. I do not, in fact, assume people in non-government positions are imbeciles. Nor do I in any way discriminate or encourage discrimination against imbeciles.)

I remember Aubrey and havingfitz (unfortunately) from previous games. Other than that, it's hard to remember. People keep changing their avatars.

[doomfeathers]

I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.

The illusion of non-randomness must be present for an RVS vote to be of any use. Also, how should I abbreviate your name? Does OOO work?

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

You know Rels, then, even though this is the first game you've posted in? Are you an alt?
The MooginSoosy post is pretty obviously not serious, so this post inclines me to think outoforder is overeager town if newbie. If alt, maybe not.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

So you know outoforder, too?

Aubrey's giving the most scum impression so far.

From my experience, that means she's probably town.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Because i don't feel like i need to ask you about it. From what i remember playing with you you will make your alignment clear to me before D1 ends even if i didn't prod you in any way. There is also a Rels-specific reason i am not willing to discuss yet.

But while you're at it, care to elaborate on this; This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.

So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.

Yup, that's an alt.

VOTE: outoforder

[doomfeathers]

Never mind, sorry. Aubrey's a guy. I assumed Aubrey was a girl because I've only heard the name as a girl's name.

[doomfeathers]

UNVOTE:

[doomfeathers]

Wow. I didn't notice how close that was to lynch.

[doomfeathers]

OOO is now at L-3.

[doomfeathers]

[quote="In post 11, [...]
The MooginSoosy post is pretty obviously not serious, so this post inclines me to think outoforder is overeager town if newbie. If alt, maybe not.
[...]

I think, if you are town, you should probably stop leaping into conclusions since you have no possible way of knowing what i think of the post in the first place.
I mean, because in your opinion i should not assume the post was serious that means if i am an experienced player i must be mafia, right? Well fyi i have not said what i think of the post in the first place so your conclusion is invalid.

Ah, but you did see something you thought was AI there or you wouldn't have asked, and since you asked without saying what you thought, I'm willing to bet it was scum-indicative.

No it is not an alt. I know hapahauli and Rels from another forum.

Gotcha.

I don't know the metas for any other sites, unfortunately. Rels and hapahauli, do you think OOO's question about MooginSoosy was scummy? Unless the answer is "yes", I now have no reason to scumread OOO.

[doomfeathers]

[quote="In post 11, [...]
The MooginSoosy post is pretty obviously not serious, so this post inclines me to think outoforder is overeager town if newbie. If alt, maybe not.
[...]

I think, if you are town, you should probably stop leaping into conclusions since you have no possible way of knowing what i think of the post in the first place.
I mean, because in your opinion i should not assume the post was serious that means if i am an experienced player i must be mafia, right? Well fyi i have not said what i think of the post in the first place so your conclusion is invalid.

Ah, but you saw something you thought was (at least potentially) AI, or you wouldn't have asked. And since you asked without saying what you thought, I'm willing to bet you viewed it as scum-indicative.

Also, what does alignment have to do with leaping to conclusions? I like leaping to conclusions. Are you trying to scare me off with threats of scumreading me?

[doomfeathers]

You asking Rels that question is reasonable. Your insistence that I back off is weird. Would you be opposed to me following up after Rels has answered?

Your point about hasty judgments is fair, but your analogy is very faulty. I'm not scumreading you so much as investigating you. One does not need good reason to investigate, but only the possibility of a good reason.

[doomfeathers]

No, I'm checking to see what he's comfortable with. It might turn out to be AI, or it might not.

[doomfeathers]

KidAmn, you seem pretty confident. Do you have previous experience on this site or elsewhere?

[doomfeathers]

doomfeathers does anything else stick out to you other than me atm?

Not really. I'd agree that KidAmn leans slightly town at this point, though, just by attitude and enthusiasm.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Because i don't feel like i need to ask you about it. From what i remember playing with you you will make your alignment clear to me before D1 ends even if i didn't prod you in any way. There is also a Rels-specific reason i am not willing to discuss yet.

But while you're at it, care to elaborate on this; This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.

So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.

If hapahauli thought you were scum, and knew you don't respond to pressure as scum, why would he pressure you? By your logic, you should be scumreading him.

[doomfeathers]

Is there a way to see what games you have played here?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics
You click on someone's profile, then click "view their topics".

[doomfeathers]

Ugh when someone wants me to describe "impressions"

Okay, they aren't very serious, but when I vote in RVS, I vote whom I have a feeling that's most likely scum.

...I... you... what?

This whole clusterfuck between Ooo, Hapa and creature a) makes no sense and b) is only going to confuse everyone but you three who know each other from "parts unknown". It's not productive in the slightest IMO.

I'm not sure what you're saying. So far, Creature's been interacting mostly with havingfitz. Did you type the wrong name, or are you revealing information I don't know?

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: Aubrey

Aubrey's giving the most scum impression so far.

Ugh when someone wants me to describe "impressions"

Okay, they aren't very serious, but when I vote in RVS, I vote whom I have a feeling that's most likely scum.

Where's Aubrey? We must call her to solve the game

So you have gut reads, but can't explain what posts led you to those reads, and you're now wishing for the help of your top scumread in solving the game? I'd figure you were just RVS voting Aubrey because you know him, but you've said twice that you have a reason for voting Aubrey.

I mean, doomfeathers, i am going to vote when i am sure of my case. I don't think i am going to be sure by that post alone and even if i was i am not going to present a case unless i can be confident i can convince other people of it.

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

[doomfeathers]

Now both of you need to describe to me how KidAmn's posting is town-readable.

"Slight townlean" doesn't mean "is absolutely town". His posting is more likely to come from town motivation. He's not being cautious or trying to blend in with the crowd.

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: Creature

It's kind of ironic that I'm telling OOO to vote while forgetting to vote for anyone myself.

[doomfeathers]

doomfeathers how good is your scumgame ?

I've been scum one game and was lynched N1. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=68559

Not reading properly =/= mafia.

Reading something as a "clusterfuck", criticizing it as confusing/pointless, and then engaging in said clusterfuck is likely mafia. The story is inconsistent. Posting for the sake of posting, etc.

Literally my only comment on that interaction was to say it was a clusterfuck and should not continue (and yes, for some reason I mixed Creature in there because I had been quoting him above to snark at his early posting, and because Rels literally hasn't posted this game, so apologies to Creature). I then moved on to a completely separate point about Ooo's refusal to give his own opinions until people have played his little mini-game.

I don't understand how that's separate. OoO's "mini-game" has everything to do with the fact that him, Rels, and I have played on other websites.

I think either you're not understanding or I'm not getting it across properly: the issue isn't the existence of the mini-game, it's that Ooo refused to clue anyone else in until it was "done with" or engage the people trying to get answers out of him.

I thought his delay in answering was reasonable given that he wanted Rels' reaction first.

I get the feeling people are bugging out over a hot lot a nothing.

No kidding.

Aubrey's my top townread right now.

[doomfeathers]

UNVOTE: Creature

Now I don't have any scumreads. Well, at least outoforder gets company.

All townies are 1-shot PGOs. Worst-case scenario is dying without ever arming. Since one scummie is worth about three townies, do we at some point want to all roll d3s to see whether to arm that night? We could force scum to choose between risking death and no-killing three nights in a row.

[doomfeathers]

@KidAmn: The theory would be that killing a townie would be worth approximately a 1/3 chance of losing a scum member. This would give up our power, but effectively neutralize the nightkill by evening chances of gaining the advantage. And since scum win more often than town, even chances are in our favor.

If we can break the game, let's do it. I'm asking whether using it in concert would be worth it strategically; I take it from your GIF that you do not think it would be. I figured that predicting the scum kill is very difficult; besides, I know when I get a one-time use power in a game, I usually wind up not using it at all, simply because I keep thinking I'll need it worse later. We'd probably want to wait until a few days in to narrow down the number of possible lynchees, though.

@MS: I had this idea before starting the game. I wanted to bring it up decently early so I wouldn't forget. Besides, there wasn't really any conversation going on at the moment, so I saw no reason not to discuss manipulating mechanics.

[doomfeathers]

Spoiler: Response to post 118

Alrighty.

So the first meaningful post i made this game was this post:

I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.

I often write posts where my intention is to challenge people to read between the lines and think about why people say what they do rather than what do they say, because i find that important. In this post i was trying to heavily imply that i don't believe RVS is the best way to start the game, nor will i participate. If that is the conclusion one gets from my post, they should automatically assume that they literally gather nothing from voting for me, since (truthfully) i will not feel pressured even if i was mafia, i won't give away my alignment if i am mafia because of some random nonsense votes on me. I obviously understand this is not something like "if you vote for me after that you're scum", not at all, but it STILL gives me information about how people read posts and what do they focus on when reading. In other words, i know what to expect from them in future.

I would tend to disagree. If you're not used to RVS, you're more likely to have a strong reaction to votes, right?

Therefore when MooginSoosy votes for me my initial impression is "wow, she definitely did not think about what she just read at all". Obviously she was joking, that's a no-brainer for anyone with any brain, but her post has literally no way of achieving anything at all. Especially when she doesn't know me, and how i play. What if i am a super newbie townie who gets scared of votes on me? What if i get angry because of dumb votes on me? Like even if you "randomly" vote for someone the vote might provoke a "wrong" reaction and a lot of early game reads for you guys who play here - i think - still come from the reactions to the votes, correct?

If you're going to dislike people who put RVS votes on people they don't know, you're going to have a bad time.

So what i do conclude, regarding MooginSoosy (and to havingfitz too), is that if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying. Or they are mafia, who just like to make people possibly annoyed so they can call them out for that later on. Or for some reason they think it's funny to just fuck around and not pay attention to why people write what they do.

There were about five of us who voted you at the beginning. Why just MooginSoosy and havingfitz? I myself just unvoted you because I saw how many votes you already had.

[Rels] thinks very alike me when he is town so there is like no way anyone else would have picked up on that.

Now I'm confused. If Rels is the only one who would have picked up on that, why are you irritated with other people for not picking up on that?

TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.

Now next thing up is KidAm. I honestly believed that writing this:

Answering to that right now would totally make my question to Rels useless now would it?

..to Kop would actually make you people realize i will give you an explanation when i have heard Rels' answer, and then, if someone has something they wanna say about it they do follow up. I didn't think people would actually think like a lot of people apparently do in this game. If i ask someone "What do you think of X", what's the point of telling them (or everyone) what i expect to be a townie answer and/or what do i expect to be a scummy answer? That's just straight up dumb because imagine i am actually poking a mafia and say "Hey, tell me what do you think of X? If you are town you will say Y and if mafia, you'll say Z". What's the point of giving the answers you (will) find townie before the other dude has answered?!?!

This is fair. Yes, people should be allowed to delay giving an answer if it's for a good reason, though I've already said this.

The case on Hapahauli kind of makes sense. I'll keep it in mind. I'm not voting until I catch up, though.

[doomfeathers]

Oh doomsfeather, i don't believe discussing arm-up strategy will achieve anything because it's all wifom in the first place. You can't break the setup here since it would require giving away information publically (about arming), and in this case giving away information helps noone other than scum.

Yes, it'd be WIFOM. But since it's the scum who have to guess instead of the town, they're the ones who have to deal with it.

"Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it.

Who's Rayn?

[doomfeathers]

Even if we decide to all arm at the same night to prevent scum from killing, it's still scumsided. So better arm when you feel like.

basically this is 100% correct.

Either you guys don't think very deeply, or you don't think I do. (If I were to guess, I'd expect it was the latter, actually. )

Three questions:
1. If you were scum, and town agreed to do this, would you kill on one of the three nights people were rolling d3s or would you wait until everyone had used up their arming?
2. If you were town, and town agreed to do this, would you go along with it, or lie and arm whenever you very well want to?
3. Do you know anyone who, as town, would not just lie?

I figured everybody (or at least everybody clever enough to warrant a shot in the first place) would lie and arm when they want, and scum would get stuck dealing with mountains of WIFOM.

One other thing we could do would be to openly discuss who should probably arm on any given night. This would, in the eyes of scum, raise the chances of being shot when killing to about 50/50, and the fact that we're openly discussing doing it helps them none. Basically, they'd have to outguess us instead of us just outguessing them. They get stuck with the WIFOM. They get irritated and make poor decisions instead of us doing it. And in any case, either less valuable targets die, or scum are more likely to get shot.

On the other hand, is there some way it would help scum? I'd like feedback on this idea, please.

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: Frederick E Campbell

who seems to be lurking at the moment.

[doomfeathers]

Spoiler: Response to post 118

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum
I would tend to disagree. If you're not used to RVS, you're more likely to have a strong reaction to votes, right?

I am "used to" RVS, i just don't think it is necessary since what becomes out of it is more likely to go shit than to go right. Which is why i try to start the game my way instead.

If you're going to dislike people who put RVS votes on people they don't know, you're going to have a bad time.

I am not. The thing i was trying to say is that when you have - let's say normally - RVS that lasts like this:
|---------------------->| when someone breaks it at;
|-------X-------------->| X spot, after that you would start to give out real reads, right? Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.

Agreed. RVS should not go longer than absolutely necessary. I do like the concept of RVS, though, just because it starts the game so quickly.

There were about five of us who voted you at the beginning. Why just MooginSoosy and havingfitz? I myself just unvoted you because I saw how many votes you already had.

Because Fredrick E Campbell posted a pure RVS vote. I can't make anything out of it.
You had actual reasons to think i am mafia (regardless of if the reasons are right/wrong/good/bad). Your vote wasn't really RVS, right?

Pretty much. I needed someone to vote, and you looked slightly suspicious, but I didn't really have any sort of case against you.

MooginSoosy, havingfitz and hapahauli posted something i could actually process on. I have given my thought process on these people, as i have on you.

Now I'm confused. If Rels is the only one who would have picked up on that, why are you irritated with other people for not picking up on that?

I was saying the (expected) ANSWER was something i think only Rels could have picked up, not the motivation of my post in the first place.

TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand this since i am not casing either of them, at least regarding their votes. If i was i would clearly point that out.

My bad; I thought you were.

As far as I'm concerned, you're in the clear for now, unless and until you post something else I think noteworthy, or I find something I missed.

[doomfeathers]

Sorry, I'm putting less attention into this game rn.

You wrote on your wiki that that's a scumtell for you.

VOTE: Creature

Oh hi SlySly

Huh?

[doomfeathers]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... to_Read_Me

Read the last sentence of paragraph 3.

You could say that just as easily as scum.

UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: Frederick

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

I'm not convinced you're town, and I haven't read Rels yet. I'll help discuss, but I reserve the right to vote whoever I please.

[doomfeathers]

Aubrey's probably town.
Kop hasn't really generated any content.
hapahauli might be town.
outoforder might be town, but is slightly stronger than hapahauli.
I don't have a read on Rels, so he could be scum.
Allomancer hasn't posted, but will have to by midnight-ish to avoid being prodded.
MooginSoosy has posted very little.
KidAmn might be town.
I have no read on havingfitz.
doomfeathers is not doomsfeather, OoO.
Frederick E Campbell has posted no content whatsoever.
Creature is null.

[doomfeathers]

Come to think of it, he did post a lot more in Open 658. Okay, my reads are changing slightly on you and him.

[doomfeathers]

Now that I look at my reads list, you're right: There are far too many boring posters in this game.

[doomfeathers]

Aubrey seems confident.

Creature, your scumread of Aubrey is the only reason I have to think he's scum. Make it good, please.

[doomfeathers]

Fitz looks townie to me. This scares me, because I townread him for playing exactly the same last game. He was scum.

[doomfeathers]

I've been reading over Fitz's games.

I CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIS SCUM AND TOWN POSTING! SOMEBODY HELP ME!

[doomfeathers]

Care to clarify?

[doomfeathers]

Nope. I don't expect anyone else to vote Frederick. I'm just trying to get his attention so he'll post.

[doomfeathers]

Also, there's nobody here who isn't a plausible wagonee, so literally any vote could be seen that way.

If you're referring to my jumpy voting, I do that at the beginning of every game. I can provide references if you wish. I find it helpful to know how people respond when I vote for them.

Pedit: Okay, then. That's been the case in the past sometimes, now that I think about it. He'll need to get involved soon to avoid the prod anyway.

VOTE: havingfitz

[doomfeathers]

Creature, I know you scumread Aubrey. What's your read on havingfitz?

[doomfeathers]

Even if we decide to all arm at the same night to prevent scum from killing, it's still scumsided. So better arm when you feel like.

I'll role a die.

Man, I hope you're lying. Don't tell me whether you are, though.

[doomfeathers]

I wish you people not voting would vote. I don't care if your the type of person who doesn't like to vote until you feel reaaal good about someone before voting them. Put your vote on the scummiest person so far already.

I'll consider what you've said.

But honestly, I think Aubrey's 222 seems a little to eager to end this day.
VOTE: Aubrey

Let's try to work as town anyways.

Do you mean you're scum, and you're trying to work as though you're town?

Wow.

In this post from a scum thread, Fredrick states that he as scum usually picks someone at random to question. Does this questioning fit that method? Could this be sloppy town, or is it more likely lazy scum?

[doomfeathers]

I'm not here to antagonize you, Fredrick, but you can do better than that. Backing an opinion with a vote is a good thing because it requires commitment. I suppose it's possible you haven't heard that yet. But it should be obvious that Creature isn't going out of his way to claim that he, I, Rels, and outoforder are all scum. Besides, there aren't four scum in this game in the first place.

[doomfeathers]

Fitz, can you explain how you tend to play differently as town rather than as scum?

[doomfeathers]

Yeah, to some extent. This is only Fredrick's fourth game, and he doesn't appear to post much.

[doomfeathers]

Creature, do you have any reason to scumread Aubrey other than less posting than you expected?

[doomfeathers]

I voted havingfitz because I haven't seen anybody do anything that makes me actually scumread them yet. I figured that if that's the case then the person who I know is hard for me to read is more likely to be scum.

Nuts, you're right. He is on V/LA. I must have been tired last night. I'll go through the thread yet another time and see if I can find someone to vote.

@MOD: Could you prod Allomancer, please?

KidAmn, when you post a gif but don't explain the faults in anyone's reasoning, it just comes across as passive-aggressive and unhelpful. Could you maybe explain your objections?

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: hapahauli

Not really scummy. More less not-scummy.

[doomfeathers]

I don't like you. Then I like you. Then you say crap and that makes me go, "

What the hell.

"

That's totally going on my wiki.

I voted hapahauli because I needed to put my vote somewhere, and he looked like the least townish option. I would vote Fredrick, but I'm still trying to determine whether sloppy disregard for the game are something scum would be more likely to do than town. Allomancer's got my vote whenever he shows up.

[doomfeathers]

...referencing one's own meta as Aubrey did is one of the most glaringly useless things there is - anyone capable of brief introspection can play to or against their own "meta" given enough ability.

I agree with this.

[doomfeathers]

Kop is still pinging the shit outa me, but I can't articulate a strong case against him.

I agree with that, but to a lesser extent. If someone else is also noticing it, that means it's not my imagination.

Pre edit: Doom, shut it. Unless of course you want to actually follow up on Kop's accusation against me.

Too late. I've already had my say.

[doomfeathers]

Hang on, I think I've got a case.

VOTE: Kop

His posting tone seems bored and rather uncaring, which clashes strongly with his activity and content. I think he's scum trying to look town.

[doomfeathers]

Allomancer's waiting until as late as possible to post. I've seen scum use that strategy.

[doomfeathers]

Fine. I'll read what Allomancer posts when he posts before I decide to vote him. I probably still will, though, especially if I don't have a decent wagon at the moment.

[doomfeathers]

[boop]

VOTE: Fredrick

because I think he's lazy scum.

[doomfeathers]

Creature is probably toen too. And someone..umm yes, it was Kop. But now i am confused since two of my top scumreads call him possibly mafia. I fidnt have much time today, i'll reassess that first thing tomorrow.

Well, that was sudden. I thought you townread me.

Allomancer's waiting until as late as possible to post. I've seen scum use that strategy.

Isn't allomancer being prodded and will probably be replaced?

My bad. You're right.

@Mod: Sorry, missed the prod. You're doing great.

[doomfeathers]

I meant in general, not specifically this game.

[doomfeathers]

Aubrey and doomfeathers; Could you elaborate more on your read on Kop, he seems townie to me, which earlier games of him are you guys referring to?

I have no past experience with Kop, and I have not at this point checked any of his past games. I just thought his current posting looked scummy.

Hi, Hawk!

[doomfeathers]

Doom flips his vote a lot with little actual say from himself on why or where or how. Particularly I find his vote against FEC just recently bothersome. You vote him for low content then give him benefit of being a newbie and not posting much then vote him again cause he's lazy scum? Naaaah dog lots of other people also fall under the low activity scummy feel than just FEC. Not that you don't point it out just you chose to focus here. Feels like low hanging fruit. He could be scum, but idk. posts are rather sporadic and feel very awkward like his interaction with creature early in the day, his questioning of the unvote just to post hey you said why two posts later so I get where some of the question of FEC comes from but I don't see why Doom votes Hapa for being not town enough, then Kop for case based off tone and activity (both of which are NAI) and back to Fred where you were before because he's lazy (despite you saying before) that he was new and doesn't post much from what you've dug out.

Yeah, I post sporadically. I'm not sure how that's scummy, though. It's just how I play games.

I voted Fredrick based on poor content, not low post rate. Also, "newbie" and "no idea how to play" are different.

Yes, I've been vote-hopping spectacularly. I haven't found any strong evidence of scumminess to vote for. Right now, I think havingfitz and Kop are probably most worthy of attention, but I can't find decent reasons to vote them.

[doomfeathers]

Moogin has not posted much, but her posts have made more sense, as if she's actually paying attention to what's going on.

Now that I think about it, though, if she's paying attention while lurking, that would be something scum might well do. I'll keep that in mind.

[doomfeathers]

At first I thought Moogin was being opportunistic, but she's not. She's got her own reasons for scumreading me, and she's scumreading Creature as well. She gained townpoints with me.

[doomfeathers]

How are you eliminating Allomancer's replacement?

[doomfeathers]

How are you eliminating Allomancer's replacement?

Stupid tired post while I was forgetting that that was who Hawk was replacing. Please ignore.

[doomfeathers]

Sorry I haven't been posting. We've been having Internet connection problems. Catching up from page 16.

[doomfeathers]

I'm going to copy what fitz does and organize things by page.

Well to be fair Hawk is not right on what he says about MooginSoosy's vote on doomfeathers. Still i don't agree with the reasoning.

Ugh i just thought about what you said Aubrey. Idk... Yeah idk, maybe there is none. Like i have seen scum do that but you're right. I'd still like her to explain how she comes to the latter conclusions based on the same posts she came to other conclusions before. Logically it doesn't make sense from any perspective and from my experience when something makes no sense from any perspective it's usually mafia -- as townies do not know why mafia comes to the conclusions the do, as they have more information than townies do.

This is quite an interesting point. I'll keep it in mind.

Mod:

Replace me out. My mental state is in a mess... again.

I hope things improve! Nice to meet you!

I don't like the fact that OoO waited to see rels' reaction. How easy it would be for a scum rels to buddy up with OoO right away just because they know each other from another game. I liked his interaction with creature but I think he backed off too easily. Then to suddenly agree to a townblock with creature, OoO and doom (though he was iffy on doom still). I think one of them is latching onto that group to fly under the radar

So you have nowfirst scumread me for some post, then townread me for the same post, and then apparently you don't again like it? Which is it?

Just because I don't like something doesn't mean you're scum. I think you're making the game easy for rels to latch onto you by having that early association.

I think rels is the most likely to latch on and I think creature or doom could also be riding that wave.

I'm confused. Are you talking about voting OOO in the beginning or the proposed townbloc later? Does the fact that I immediately unvoted OOO and refused to bloc change your read on me at all?

ewwwww, I forgot mafia have day talk. <----- not the biggest fan of day talk.

That's going to change up my thinking a bit, and makes OOO's psychic connection with Reels even sillier now.

Sillier in what way? Are you saying it makes him more or less likely to be scum?

01. Aubrey

02. Kop > KainTepes
03. hapahauli

04. outoforder
05. Rels*
06. Hawk > Allomancer*

07. MooginSoosy
08. KidAmn
09. havingfitz

10. doomfeathers

11. Fredrick E Campbell

12. Creature

Caught up.
Hapa is scum.
Kop is most likely scum.
Aubrey rayn and hawk are townie.
Creature and doom are super town.
So most importantly Hapa is scum. Let's murder him.

These two lists are practically identical. It could be similar townie thought processes, or sheeping, or synchronized scum. I don't think it's two scum, but it could be. It somehow seems less likely since scum have daytalk.

[doomfeathers]

From the general consensus, it seems we're narrowing down scum to likely being in the lower end of posting / activity. I seriously wouldn't be shocked if one (if not two) are fooling us by playing in an aggressive/active manner.

Agreed.

[doomfeathers]

Moogin are you gonna give your read on Rels especially since Rels came in with some very nice aggressive scumhunting here? Can you give a read on Hapa as well while your at it since you said you didn't understand why people thought Hapa was scummy?

Well now I think rels is more town, no need to phrase it in the way you did. Looking from before the weekend and after the weekend makes a huge difference for rels. Like no I'm not going to think he's 100% but that was nice explanation for hapa for me.

The hardest thing to wrap my head around for hapa is the fact that they're looking to past games which I cannot look at? So no I still don't see scum hapa but I also don't see town hapa.

mod...I will be v/LA from now until Tuesday morning.

Back. Will catch up asap.

Dat hype

Apparently I don't know what ASAP means

Agreed, on both of these.

[doomfeathers]

My baby girl was just born! Will be back later maybe earlier than tomorrow just felt like sharing!!!

Awesomeness! Congratulations!

Fitz

still is probably my second strongest read. I did not like his "wall-o-text" catchup post in the least bit. It's like he made it intentionally super hard to read, while criticizing OoO's wall for being hard-to-read.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn.

Here we see hapahauli listing reasons why his scumread might be wrong shortly after saying this:

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

Also, he's been criticizing hypocrisy. Please get your reads together, dude.

If hapahauli eventually flips scum, I think KidAmn is probably more likely town, and havingfitz and/or Kop are more likely to be scum. He could be distancing without having to vote one of them.

Now that I have an excuse:

VOTE: Kop

For how much people talk about voting him, nobody's been actually doing it.

[doomfeathers]

Note: The excuse is not hapahauli's possible link. He and somebody (OOO, I think) have been talking about Kop being hypocritical in his posts.

[doomfeathers]

@Kop: For the record, I never said I thought havingfitz was town. I said he appeared townish to me in the same way that he appeared townish to me last game, when he was scum.

[doomfeathers]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

This in particular makes no sense. This looks like stretching to find reasons to OMGUS

He's explaining what I said.

[doomfeathers]

You're right, that doesn't. But KidAmn did list another reason. It was weak, I'll grant.

[doomfeathers]

doom, Creature, since you're around do you know the answer to this ?

Does Frederick gets killed by host at some point if he doesn't get replaced ?

I do not know. I don't think so. I've seen people replace in later than this.

[doomfeathers]

Fuck me sideways. I'm starting to doubt Fitz.

You're voting him. Are you just now starting to scumread him, or are you starting to doubt your scumread on him? Either way, why?

[doomfeathers]

Then you ask the most obvious question to Doom. Post 51. We can all see Doom is in fact asking permission to push a topic later. You said later you had reasons for asking the question, but clearly that "reasoning" should have been included in the original post and not needed to be explained to everyone. I doubt even Doom knew what you were implying.

Yeah, I knew. He was criticizing my agreeing to wait until later to ask. I still don't know why. Other than that, I think I agree with most of your points on havingfitz, and would probably consider him a lynch option today.

(Note that I am holding no hard feelings from last game, fitz. You got me good. I appreciate the chance to play with you again. I just think you might be scum.)

Can anyone else confirm that Aubrey tends to be widely townread regardless of alignment? If so, it would seem that the best method of reading him is PoE.

[doomfeathers]

@fitz: Why did you ask me that, anyway?

[doomfeathers]

@fitz: Why did you ask me that, anyway?

51 - This is essentially a passive aggressive dig on my part at Doom to say he doesn't need anyone's approval to ask anything. This on the heels of a game we just played where I thought he put too much credence into the opinions of other players.

But why? I was investigating OOO. Were you encouraging me to go ahead and push for an answer? I'm very sure that would have been counterproductive.

quick lunch skim. Thought I'd address this quickly.

Can anyone else confirm that Aubrey tends to be widely townread regardless of alignment? If so, it would seem that the best method of reading him is PoE.

Usually I feel as if I'm pretty much townread regardless of alignment, however that is usually in games where I come in as a unknown player for reasons that I'm not going to go any deeper into. I'm just getting to the point where I'm playing with repeat people. All this being said, who gives a damn? Stop being so worried and concerned about meta and how good/capable someone is, and actually look at what they are saying and doing to come to some sort of conclusion about their alignment.

To be frank you're starting to annoy me now with how concerned you are about meta/capabilites. First Fitz, and only voting him due to being scared of being unable to read him. Now you're starting to get that way with me in having to maybe use poe. Like sheesh. Either go look at my scum and town games and cross reference them, or actually look at what I'm doing this game and decide if it comes from town or scum perspective.

The only thing that keeps you in a town-lean in my eyes is what I mentioned in the Fitz retort.

So you're saying that those who don't know you tend to townread you regardless of alignment, but I should just go ahead and try even though I've played with you previously for only one in-game day? I guess I could go back over your games, but I try not to do that too much simply because I have other things to do.

For the record, the reason for my vote on fitz was that I had no scumreads to vote at the time. Usually, somebody posts something scummy near the beginning for me to harp about. That didn't happen so much this time.

[doomfeathers]

But why? I was investigating OOO. Were you encouraging me to go ahead and push for an answer? I'm very sure that would have been counterproductive

I wasn't pushing you to continue questioning OoO on that line of questioning...I was nudging you towards the realization that you shouldn't be asking permission to ask a question later on when you felt like it. I was trying to assist your play. Being pensive is either weak town or overly cautious scum. As you were an early tr I assume it's the former.

Gotcha.

I remember you voting him cause you couldn't read him at all, and he could fool you regardless of alignment.

True. It was a rather poor reason. But I didn't have a good one to vote anyone at the time, so I went with a bad one.

[doomfeathers]

@Doom what's your opinion on Kops catchup??

Spoiler: Speeding wallpost with some Jackie Chan thrown in

I remain undecided and wary of Kop. Scum can easily townread me for the reasons he has provided, and in my eyes it is hardly AI.

--

This game will seriously get a hell of a lot more interesting once some wagons form. As of right now, we are in a fog. That is in part because people are not voting or talking. Or they talk about voting and are to scared to actually commit. Personally I'm at the point where I think you, myself, and Doom need to take a step back from taking initiative, and force the rest of the town to actually begin stepping up to the plate. We've done our share of talking and hunting. Time for the others to do the same.

Yes I am aware it's easy for scum to throw out town reads. However I'm not throwing it out to appease people, I'm basing it over the overall style within this game compared to your last game. If this style of yours portrayed the one you played in 664 then I'd be wary of you.

That really doesn't satisfy Aubrey's objection. Pointing out the reasons for the read is irrelevant if Aubrey just said that scum could easily use those reasons for a townread.

Kop feels off to me. His posts haven't been the most towny for me. The post about Aubry FWIW not burning him even if it's just RVS might be a slip indicating he knows that he and Aubrey are opposed. I don't really think so. The thing about buddying bothers me too because the post doesn't read like a jest at first glance but Kop explanation kinda makes sense?

Your last bit isn't a slip, it's a random comment that shouldn't mean anything in RVS. I've said things in similar jest in previous games, like in 664 I called Spade obvious scum in my first post with a vote, Spade hadn't even posted.

That comment from a previous game means nothing. Everybody makes comments like that. Claiming that this one doesn't mean anything in particular proves nothing. Maybe it's a slip, or maybe it's not; in any case, Kop's kind of biased. It feels to me like Kop might be scum trying to draw a false parallel to equate his (previous) townie and (current) scum play; it's not strong evidence, though.

Kops's filter is horrible too.

1. Most of it is useless stuff.

But not the townie kind of useless stuff. Not the "I-dont-care-about-others" posts. No, useless-but-still-trying-to-look-useful kind.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

What do you think of that post?

Useless question that have no follow up.

This is MafiaScum. Vote away. If you're not voting, you'll likely be viewed as hesitant scum.

I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".

There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.

Look at that buddying.

I don't really like giant walls because scum sometimes use that to scare off potential suspects.

Not being able to read someone simply because they are hard to read doest make them scum.

2. His ONE scumread is bad, he's not voting him, he's not pressuring him.

This one:

Fitz looks townie to me. This scares me, because I townread him for playing exactly the same last game. He was scum.

Also, there's nobody here who isn't a plausible wagonee, so literally any vote could be seen that way.

If you're referring to my jumpy voting, I do that at the beginning of every game. I can provide references if you wish. I find it helpful to know how people respond when I vote for them.

Pedit: Okay, then. That's been the case in the past sometimes, now that I think about it. He'll need to get involved soon to avoid the prod anyway.

VOTE: havingfitz

Your vote doesn't make any sense. Why would you say he looks townie, but then vote for him a few posts after. I understand you said that he was like that in the previous game but turned out to be scum, so you have paranoia that it could be another turn out like that, but is that the only reason your suspecting him?

Because in reality, your vote doesn't have a case or is backed up with any questions towards fitz to answer too. It feels to me that you were questioned about your previous vote on a needless slot right now, to someone that could appear needing pressure. And that is backed up by you asking Aubrey for her thoughts on Fitz, as if your trying to push Aubrey into Fitz direction.

First, this reasonning doesn't make anyone scum. Town are way more likely to flip flop their read on someone than scum. The inquisitive tone in the last paragraph is also not in phase with Kop's actions: he's not voting doom, he's not talking to him even though he's STILL HERE when doom comes back.
This post is after he explained why he scumread doom; after he agreed with Aubrey that doom was scummy; and after doom came back to the thread. But he doesn't do anything with him and leave the thread.

--

Yeah. Probably scum.

Your first comment about not following it up, apparently this phrase wasn't towards me and wouldn't indulge in this information until the person he aimed it at, responded. From what I remember of my post towards that.

Second comment about Doom, I didn't scum read Doom, nor did I say that I scum read doom. What's

this post

got to do with it? That says nothing about me scum reading Doom. I didn't agree about his vote and how he portrayed it, it just didn't make sense, however I haven't revisited that section yet and will do so. [/quote]
So he's got possible scum evidence against me, but hasn't either voted me or voted someone else whom he considers a stronger scumread--and this after, as someone pointed out, scolding people for not voting suspects in post 125.



(Yeah, I think that's big enough to make up for my lack of other images in this thread.)

On the minus side she had a a pretty bad re-entrance to the thread. She even acknolodged it herself, but acknowledging it doesn't make it any less scummier. She declared three tentative townreads on OOO (rayn in the above posts, sorry, will try to call him OOO) Creature on I, all of 3 we townread each other, probably some easy reads to copy for a scum when reading the thread and thinking about how to blend in.
Then she has to be forced to give a scumread, and it's lackluster.

On the plus side, after that she shows some change on these townreads. Like she does'tn know what to do. it feels town.

On another minus side she's focusing a LOT of these 4 players: doom OOO creature and I. Like she's kinda ignoring what's happening on the side. And it's a scum trait usually.

We agree on something. And that is one of the reasons I picked out, he/she was pressed into giving reads and those 3 were picked out fairly quickly because at the time, that was where most people were at. It's reasonable to do that from a Scums POV because it appeals to people and doesn't create ripples.

Still no vote, though.

@Kop: For the record, I never said I thought havingfitz was town. I said he appeared townish to me in the same way that he appeared townish to me last game, when he was scum.

Yes I agree you never said he was town, I didn't say you did town read him. I made the point why would you vote someone purely looking townie, that was my point. Yes it may be paranoia kicking in because of the previous game you and fitz played before, but your vote didn't contain anything for fitz to answer too, to go along with the weird stance you took before that vote.

Needed vote. Already explained.

You misunderstand me Kop. I'm personally aware of the difference between my town and scum play. You noticing it however doesn't make me think you are town alone though. I don't see it as AI exactly. That is why I disagree with the town lean given to you, because that is what OOO is baseing it on.

Obviously you would be aware of your styles of play, other people won't be so.

That still doesn't explain how it's AI.

Overall, I'd probably vote this. Oh, wait, I already am.

[doomfeathers]

Would you mind if we lynched hapahauli right now?

Not my first choice. I like Hapa's case against KidDamn. I don't buy into the meta stuff so I guess right now he's sitting Null/Town.

I don't like the way Kid reacted to the case presented. It sounds frustrated but it lashes out at things that aren't alignment indicative and reads as OMGUS.

Hapa says Kid is scummy cause he presents a case for scum and town then votes anyway despite thinking creature could be town.

Kid retorts that Hapa is hypocritical and is doing the same thing.

2 things

1. town is capable of being hypocritical (lurk town versus lurk scum pointing out that lurking is scummy) it doesn't make a great case but I can see town being that way in this case a little bit.

2. I actually don't think Hapa was being hypocritical. Hapa makes actually case for Kop to be town or scum but he's not voting Kop he's voting Kid. And Hapa didn't really give reasoning as the why Kid is town which is what Kid did when he voted Creature. so not the same case.

Good point. Maybe I was wrong about that.

[doomfeathers]

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

Open 658 was a game I played in which both Aubrey and Creature also played. I was NKed N1. Havingfitz later replaced in and won as scum with BK201 and Gamma Emerald; I don't believe I ever actually interacted with him that game. Unfortunately, day 1 lasted for 42 pages.

[doomfeathers]

I'm reading it. I'm just not commenting at the moment. I think the case on Kop is stronger.

[doomfeathers]

You're right, I'm getting my games mixed up. I'm thinking of a large normal I played.

[doomfeathers]

Welcome to the game, casielle! I'd give you suggestions to watch out for, but it's pretty much the whole player list.

i dont do townblocks and i dont do vengeance and i def dont do buddies

talk to me with content not buddying

I like you already.

i like slower because i want people to tell me what they want me to take stances on, it tells me how to read /them/ and when i catch up in context im that much stronger of a player

I could see this from either town or scum. At first I thought it was scummy; I thought it looked as if cassie was letting other people pick her fights for her, letting her out of doing real work. But it could also be risky as scum if asked to analyze a partner, and it would also eliminate the option of just starting a non-viable wagon for the purpose of appearing to be doing something. Sure, she could still do it, but if she has to work on the major wagons as well, it no longer has purpose.

Well that sure killed the funny over dramatic story I had planed out.

You're no longer of any interest to me

.

Your slot isn't much to talk about either.

It'll be more interesting once you get caught up and engage with the town. ps

"

bestie

"

you might consider catching up faster than slower.

also this post is full of pointless shadethrowing, in bold, for not wanting to play silly games with them in place of getting AI content
someone who townreads aubrey, i would like you to defend this behavior

ftr idc about aubrey defending it to me because afaiac thats always going to be NAI
defending it to people who already townread them is more likely to give me something i can build a good read on

He's obviously just messing around. He's not going to try to get you scumread for that.

By all means explain how it was disjointed. Pretty sure my dots were connected. Furthermore I Lovvvve how Hapa is completly fine in your books, yet I'm still scum. Unless you forgot, he had the exact same thoughts as I did, and in a perfect world should still be receiving your suspicions.

I'd just like to interject that similar reads are not necessarily a basis for being on the same team. Tone and line of reasoning are also important. Yes, I know it's not my argument.

[doomfeathers]

Spoiler: Reply to Kop

@Kop: You appear to me to be wondering why I analyzed your catchup. If you missed it, Hawk asked me to do so, so I'd appreciate if you'd stop trying to make it sound as if I'm just digging through whatever you write looking for the least excuse to call you scummy. Thanks!

I've had to adjust quote features because some how Doom derped the quote tags and knacked it up in post 540.

Sorry about that. I'll make sure to check my post previews in the future.

That really doesn't satisfy Aubrey's objection. Pointing out the reasons for the read is irrelevant if Aubrey just said that scum could easily use those reasons for a townread.

How much more do you want me to rewash all of that read and post it? Your still pushing this case, where as Aubrey hasn't commented anymore about it. Why are you regurgitating the same point over and over again? If Aubrey wasn't still satisfied about what I said about it, it's HIS prerogative to push it more, it just feels your latching onto a small point and hoping to shape the whole suspicion around. I can't say anymore to the reason why I'm currently town reading Aubrey other than what I've already said. I don't know how much more detail you'd like me to go into.

I'm investigating you. If I see faulty logic, I point it out. I don't care if someone else originally asked the question. I've demonstrated this repeatedly, much to Aubrey's chagrin.

That comment from a previous game means nothing. Everybody makes comments like that. Claiming that this one doesn't mean anything in particular proves nothing. Maybe it's a slip, or maybe it's not; in any case, Kop's kind of biased. It feels to me like Kop might be scum trying to draw a false parallel to equate his (previous) townie and (current) scum play; it's not strong evidence, though.

It's not a slip, your trying to paint it that you'd hope it would be a slip. To be quite frank, it's mountains out of molehills, throwing shit in hope something will stick.

If everybody makes comments like that, then why are you still throwing it up, and saying it could be a slip or not?

I specifically stated that I wasn't commenting on the slip. That's what's meant by "maybe it's a slip, or maybe it's not." I was commenting on your reply to the criticism of the alleged slip.

So he's got possible scum evidence against me, but hasn't either voted me or voted someone else whom he considers a stronger scumread--and this after, as someone pointed out, scolding people for not voting suspects in post 125.

Seriously, I mean seriously. Your basing my questioning your vote and reasons for that vote, is scum evidence? The whole point of me asking all of what I did was to try locate your mindset in the whole thing towards fitz. It was NAI to what you were doing because the game is all about paranoia, I wanted to push you further into giving more detail to what you were aiming for, because you said one thing, then flipped it all round later with a vote without giving anything away to what changed, and that's why I questioned it, it doesn't necessarily say that it's evidence that your scum.

It's like me calling Aubrey town, then going on to voting him without physically stating I'm scum reading him, or even giving anything away. I'm sure there would be people questioning why I'm voting for someone I'm thinking is town without giving a good enough reason for my vote going there.

If you believe this case is better than anything else that's within this thread, then it's weak because your going after low hanging fruit based on not a great deal of information.

I mean look at your case notes:

-Meta reading on Aubrey
-Possible slip, possible not
-Lack of vote

Is there anything else you want to add to that list?

Lack of vote is the exact reason I'm voting you. You haven't voted once since RVS, even though you have pointed out several things you said might be scummy, and talked about how townies should vote their scumreads. I'm not saying your criticism of me is scummy. I'm saying your criticism of a lot of people, including me, without ever voting one of them is scummy. That's pretty much my whole case on you right there, though I have a lot of gut to back it up. So no, don't add anything to the list; just remove the first two points. They are neither strongly AI nor my reasons for scumreading you.

I like your new avatar, though.

[doomfeathers]

so no one wants me to take a stance on specific things that have happened in the game thus far?

I've been wagoning Kop and throwing suspicion at havingfitz. Got thoughts on them?

i want people to defend their votes to me

Kop has coasted a lot, but more importantly refuses to vote anyone despite having scolded somebody earlier for not voting suspicions. I'm still trying to figure out his possible motive, but he basically told us to scumread him.

idk, I'm hesitating to vote hapahauli because I don't want accidental hammers and I'm sorta lazy to count votes.

Wow. That is lazy. No offense.

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Sweet glory. On one hand, he just implied that, if he's getting lynched, he's probably scum. On the other hand, would scum be so careless as to say that, since they tend to be worried more than townies about how they're perceived. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Let's get real. Day 1's are usually shit and town gets lynched. Mostly because people come at this game looking for some super logical explanation.

Huh. I have no idea what else to look for. Could you give me some idea?

[doomfeathers]

Interesting.

You talk as one experienced. You have posted in six threads, five of which were games, and only one of which was a queue. Are you an alt?

I'll rethink my case on Kop, but I'm not willing to switch my vote yet.

@Kop: Why do you refuse to vote?

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

Hm. It appears from 207 that hapa was investigating fitz while fitz was investigating Creature. Hapa interacted very little with Creature at first, just posting very briefly to defend himself against Creature's scumread on him in 275. He scumread KidAmn in what could, I suppose, be interpreted as chainsaw defense in 452, and later townread Creature in 455. He got (rather unreasonably, I thought) rather upset with Aubrey over the same case with KidAmn vs. Creature in 590, then took a shot at Creature for not explaining his vote on hapa in 578; now that I notice it, Creature hasn't stated any reason to scumread hapahauli except in 281 where he said hapa wasn't "showing his potential". I can see Creature bussing hapahauli.

I don't know why, but cass's posting seems townish to me.

[doomfeathers]

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

I thought you said you'd rather lynch Creature first.

[doomfeathers]

VOTE: Aubrey

Aubrey's giving the most scum impression so far.

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

So far Aubrey looks more likely scum.

hapahauli can be scum too.

Aubrey looks like low-hanging scum. And he isn't low-hanging as town.

doomfeathers is probably his typical Open 658.

Few of these actually have reasons. This would be very easy for scum to fake.

Still haven't hyperposted because I'm sorta lacking interess right now.

Dude just told us to scumread him. Yes, I know he keeps claiming there's a difference, but I'm not seeing it.

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

This is one thing I don't get. Why does everybody think discussing theory is scummy? What possible good could scum gain from trying to break the game for town? Experienced townies are going to point out anything that wouldn't work, as evidenced by what came soon after my theory posts.

This is your daily reminder that no one actually has reasons to call me mafia.

I find it hard to remember what you have posted. You've spent a lot of time arguing over whether people should be scumreading you even when there aren't that many. You look to me as if you could easily be scum trying to avoid doing any real scumhunting work. I'll check you over later to see whether my impression looks right to me.

Oh right, the doubting.

Back to disinteress.

Seriously? If you have a problem with people doubting your reads, why are you playing Mafia? I know Creature made some townie-looking posts just previous, but this just looks like a poor excuse to do less work. Creature is scummy.

[doomfeathers]

You're showing shockingly little interest in conversing with your top scumread, Cassielle.

Good grief. Does hapa have a problem with people not constantly wagoning him? He could well be helping get himself bussed purposely; scum have daytalk.

and honestly, the thing with creature is that i trust his d2+ townplay and i could end up being an amplifier for bad signal from his slot if he is scum and we let him coast

Interesting. I'm willing to wait a day.

Oh lol when someone acts like emotions can be easily faked by anyone.

Who are you referring to? I must have missed that.

Didn't you townread me earlier?

No, I just upgraded you to null a few times. I've already voted you twice this game, yet I keep coming back to you.

Oh right, the doubting.

Back to disinteress.

Seriously? If you have a problem with people doubting your reads, why are you playing Mafia? I know Creature made some townie-looking posts just previous, but this just looks like a poor excuse to do less work. Creature is scummy.

it is my understanding that this doubting comment is personal between me and creature (cant talk about it though)

...Wha? If you can't explain this, don't; it just seems very odd to me.

Yeah, I've been called lynchbait before, but I get lynched as scum, too, so I can't use that excuse.

[doomfeathers]

Let it hereby be known that I would vote hapahauli at this point if I didn't want to keep the day going for a while yet.

[doomfeathers]

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

[doomfeathers]

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

Cassielle and KidAmn could be the bussing scumteam, in which this would be attempting to get them townread after the lynch. I doubt it, though; I townread cassielle.

hapahauli isn't showing his potential.

I've been reading through

Kop's

filter.

I understand why people think he's scummy, and I had my own reasons for suspecting him as well. But I have two huge misgivings about his lynch:
1) Literally everyone thinks that he's suspicious. There isn't any resistance, even from people on my wagon. Mafia decided to bus him from the beginning of the game and provide no resistance? I doubt it.
2) What's his agenda? He isn't pushing anything period. There's no survival instinct. He could be pushing me pretty damn easy, but he's not. And even if you think we're both mafia, you think he'd be pushing literally any alternative to his lynch.

My feeling is that me vs. Kop is TvT, and scum are lulzing picking sides. Hence I'd rather be lynching people on the wagons rather than the wagons themselves.

Hapahauli posted something useful. Either he's trying to take down Kop with him, or he's actually posting something useful and not literally trying to be lynched. Hm.

[doomfeathers]

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

Again,

why am I mafia?

You literally have no reasons that haven't been discredited. The only thing I can find in your filter is that I'm "defending myself too much", which all of my WAT.

I'm pretty sure I didn't use those words. If you're going to quote me, say what I said, please.

First, you've used a lot of time on obscure arguments over activity on another site. This was irrelevant to anyone who hasn't played on that site, which is all but three of us, I think. Second, you seem hypersensitive to criticism; you tend to overreact to investigation, which is often an indicator of guilt. Third, you lately have made maybe one or two posts that weren't either screaming at people to get off your back or wild shots fired at those who scumread you. If you're not interested in finding scum, you likely are scum.

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Plenty of other people worth debating was who? Fitz and KidDamn? You've given soft townreads to Fitz and Doom now do you're back on KidDamn and FEC's slot which you had said it was a cop out lynch? Cassiele's once through and the scum pick on you is difference enough to push as scum #1?

He wasn't wrong; most players in the game were worthy of debate at that point. Oddly, if he's scum, that's more possible evidence for the theory that cass is bussing him.

[doomfeathers]

I doubt Hapa's personal goal is to get lynched. To whoever suggested that.

That was me, referencing the bus theory.

stop defending yourself bro. Show me your logic like you did before

GEEZUS CHRIST it's NOT OMGUS. If it was OMGUS, I'd need to be some insane power role with 90 votes.

That's like saying that taking that candy bar from the store wasn't theft because there were a lot more you didn't take.

I don't care that she's scum-reading me. It's HOW.

Always HOW.

Weigh the reasons WHY someone is scumreading a person and their emotions while doing so vs. the CONFIDENCE they have in their read.

The confidence that Cassy has, does not match with her reasons, tone, and approach to the game. And I'll keep saying that until you get it through your skull, whether or not you call it OMGUS>.

Cass's posts have seemed pretty relatable to me, and I think I'm town. I'm townreading her and Aubrey for about the same reasons.

I doubt Hapa's personal goal is to get lynched. To whoever suggested that.

See I'm in some catch 22 of hell.

I defend myself ---> LOLOL HAPA FLAILING

I call people mafia ---> LOLOL OMGUS WE NO READ UR POSTS U SO MAF

That's misrep. Are you scumreading people for scummy things, or because they're wagoning you? And for the record, I'm not completely convinced you're scum.

And of course any emotions and frustrations I show now are invalid because Rels already called out how "emotionless" my posting is.

Though you're not helping me townread you very much. Ending the pity party would go a long way.

[doomfeathers]

Hypersensitive?! Do you enjoy being called mafia wrongfully and for shit reasons? I certainly don't.

Secondly, I'm very damn interested in finding scum. Again, my catch 22 of hell applies here.
I defend myself ---> WASTING TIME HAPA
I call mafia ----> (my posts are ignored)
I do nothing ----> HAPA YOU'RE MORE ACTIVE AS TOWN ZOMG

So naturally, I'm super fucking hypersensitive to this, because no matter what I choose, I am read as mafia, and no one takes my cases seriously.

And if you're wondering if you should take me seriously, ask Rels or OoO about my success rate in lynching mafia D1.

I'm trying to have a reasonable conversation here so I can read you. Could you please stop trying to start a flame war?

I'm not ignoring your posts, for crying out loud. Please stop saying I am.

Yes, I am wondering whether I should take you seriously. The reason is that you seem to assume that whoever scumreads you is either an idiot or scum. You don't seem to consider changing your behavior to benefit town; you just keep screaming at whoever so much as points out logic flaws in your posts. If you don't take others seriously, why should they take you seriously? Also, if you don't like pressure, why are you playing Mafia?

[doomfeathers]

I'd love to talk about scumreads if people want to talk about scumreads. But getting people talking about my cases is like pulling teeth.

I'm paying attention to your reads.

Also needs to die. Rels #726 makes me think I'm just confirmation baised on Cassy and not reading her carefully enough. Will be back with more on her.

Who needs to die?

KidDamn
Kop ?
Woonjin ?
Is what I imagine is the team

Who's Woonjin? Do you mean MooginSoosy?

@ Doom

@hapahauli: You've grandly missed the point of my scumread on you. I was saying that you've been posting in a way that's full of fluff and pointless arguments, with little memorable content, for a lot of the game so far. Then later, you go crazy defending yourself and do nothing else.

Hapa continues to flail. I agree with Hawk that it's little more than OMGUS. If he's intending to be lynched, he's doing a good job.

@cass (and anyone else who wants to answer): Would Creature as scum continue to bus after the town starts figuring that's what's going on? Would it be too risky for him to stop? I'm almost thinking he would find a reason to retract his vote since completing the bus would only make people more suspicious of him.

Stuff like the bolded is gasoline on a flame war. I defend myself, give opinions on 3 players (including 2 scumreads), and you say I'm wasting time defending myself and not doing anything else. Then I'm "flailing."

I will only respond in hostility to that.

I wasn't calling you names or yelling at you. If you have a problem with the term "flailing", I can avoid that, but I'm going to comment on your play as I see it, and post my reasons for scumreading you, especially if you keep asking for them.

Anyway. Productivity. Do you have a reason not to vote KidDamn?

Also, those posts on Cassy I asked you for before?

I'm watching KidAmn. I still think he's most likely lynchbait town for now. I'm getting around to reviewing cassielle; I'm just responding to posts here first.

[doomfeathers]

It's more of a general thing than a few specific posts, but I grabbed a few from one page. Mostly, it's that her logic makes sense, her posts sound genuine and progress naturally, and she corrects my reads and gives me tips. She's posting in a way that's helpful to town. Scum usually want to distract or to blend in. It's kind of hard to explain and partly gut.

Spoiler: cassie's townie posts

good

i like hungry sharks

they give me lots of good reads

and thanks!

She doesn't mind pressure. This seems townish to me. Scum try to avoid attention.

Cass I know you said it was a quick skim but can you explain those top 3 scum reads for me?

creature is not playing his town meta here, and i have first hand experience with it -- this is an unmotivated fluffposting creature definitely
i dont "do" meta really, but creature's meta is one of those such that breaking it would be like trying to force basic rules of mathematics to change for you

i was sleep deprived and dont really remember my dislike of the moogin slot but i remember i really, really didnt like something i saw. call it a gutread for now

hapa feels like coasting scum, sort of just a tone read, lot of communicating around people and subject dodging

Okay, do you know how I play scum?

ISO inflation

which is all i see tbh

you only seriously answered two or three questions

first two is too early to take town!Creature seriously
the powertown posts felt forced af
181-187 feel like town creature but NOTHING ELSE in your iso does

and i mean you /are/ aware of your meta so
i think you can fake a couple town!Creature posts

Hapa is at L3. Kop is at L4. I don't have one in particluar I care more for. Unless something interesting happens, I think these are our two lynch candidates.

VOTE: kop

--

Pre edit: I'll give you the rundown of my votes. I originally voted fitz. His opening reminded me of scum trying to seem protown by asking un-important questions. Shortly after he went in VLA. I was unsatisfied and remained on my vote while contributing to the town with my thoughts. Upon his arrival he made a very long and unimpressive attack on me imo. For reasons that I've mentioned I started to doubt my read a bit. I'm still "eh" with him, but I'm in doubt now. Figure I'll wait, and see how he progresses. My next vote was on Hawk. Ultimately it was due to a miscommunication error more than likely. Now my vote is where you see it.

This rundown is only in regards to my votes and not my full set of thoughts and reads. As you finish reading the thread, those will become clear to you.

why you place your votes in a given place is more telling than reads tbh
town thinks about where their votes are, scum just wants a mislynch or (occasionally) to bus, so scum has to make shit up when called on it
meanwhile reads are just as often based on gut as they are on logic or heuristics

this is a good explanation

Welcome to the game, casielle! I'd give you suggestions to watch out for, but it's pretty much the whole player list.

i dont do townblocks and i dont do vengeance and i def dont do buddies

talk to me with content not buddying

I like you already.

i like slower because i want people to tell me what they want me to take stances on, it tells me how to read /them/ and when i catch up in context im that much stronger of a player

I could see this from either town or scum. At first I thought it was scummy; I thought it looked as if cassie was letting other people pick her fights for her, letting her out of doing real work. But it could also be risky as scum if asked to analyze a partner, and it would also eliminate the option of just starting a non-viable wagon for the purpose of appearing to be doing something. Sure, she could still do it, but if she has to work on the major wagons as well, it no longer has purpose.

Well that sure killed the funny over dramatic story I had planed out.

You're no longer of any interest to me

.

Your slot isn't much to talk about either.

It'll be more interesting once you get caught up and engage with the town. ps

"

bestie

"

you might consider catching up faster than slower.

also this post is full of pointless shadethrowing, in bold, for not wanting to play silly games with them in place of getting AI content
someone who townreads aubrey, i would like you to defend this behavior

ftr idc about aubrey defending it to me because afaiac thats always going to be NAI
defending it to people who already townread them is more likely to give me something i can build a good read on

He's obviously just messing around. He's not going to try to get you scumread for that.

By all means explain how it was disjointed. Pretty sure my dots were connected. Furthermore I Lovvvve how Hapa is completly fine in your books, yet I'm still scum. Unless you forgot, he had the exact same thoughts as I did, and in a perfect world should still be receiving your suspicions.

I'd just like to interject that similar reads are not necessarily a basis for being on the same team. Tone and line of reasoning are also important. Yes, I know it's not my argument.

ftr: i never claimed he was going to scumread me for it, i was applying very light (i didnt even vote) pressure and watching the resulting wriggling
it was boring, so i ignored it and moved on, so i could go back to it later if necessary. seems unnecessary now so i got no problem talking about it

scum never clone reads in an AI way in my experience, its way too obvious and too-scummy-to-be-scum doesnt even work with it. town does that "let me just pull someone elses readslist" thing as often as scum does and for broadly similar reasons (not wanting to read, inability to decide wrt certain slots, etc) and no one gets away with it without pressure that scum would rather avoid

scum readslists tend to have obvtown slots agreed on but everything below that is all weird and twisted up into a mess with thin reasoning. they gutread their townleans, focus on slips for their scumreads, and generally just seem to forget that town is ALWAYS scummy, scum is sometimes townie. makes it hard to spot because town does the same thing, but i generally get an uneasy feeling from a scum readslist, like they read a broadly similar game where all the small details got switched around

i didnt like you talking mechanics the way you did but it felt like town flubbing it instead of scum gambiting and your slot's recovered well imo

why is your vote where it is at?

thats thin reasoning

1 act (even if it is a consistent one) is not enough to lynchvote someone. pressurevote, ok. but. but, town could easily be in a state where theyre uneasy throwing votes around in case scum push the wagon home on a ML and theyre not confident enough to single out a read and say "this is the one". among other things

im not defending the slot, im saying your vote has poor justification. you should remedy that and build a better case imo... although kop's slot has pretty small amounts of meaningful content to read, so it might not be possible

either way i prefer other wagons for today. for instance i am pretty sure creature is bussing hapa atm: its a classic scum-location on the wagon, a poor push with no attempts at town!Creature's usual laconic wagon pushing, and creature didnt even skim to see nothing had changed since the last vc (just a page ago, 2 pages now) which shows a bit more than simple disinterest (which is itself a light scumtell for Creature anyway)

i want to push the hapa wagon but id rather push the creature wagon for d1 because i think we get more out of letting hapa have rope to lynch himself with d2 atm
and im unconvinced on kop atm, tho i think i could be persuaded to change my mind. either way i dont like that wagon, feels like lynchbait

so no one wants me to take a stance on specific things that have happened in the game thus far?

I've been wagoning Kop and throwing suspicion at havingfitz. Got thoughts on them?

no. feel coasty/lurky, too little for me to grab onto and shake properly, but lurking is NAI

i want people to defend their votes to me

Kop has coasted a lot, but more importantly refuses to vote anyone despite having scolded somebody earlier for not voting suspicions. I'm still trying to figure out his possible motive, but he basically told us to scumread him.

yes got that vibe but that feels like frustrated town not scum to me atm. again open to changing mind but not seeing it yet

idk, I'm hesitating to vote hapahauli because I don't want accidental hammers and I'm sorta lazy to count votes.

Wow. That is lazy. No offense.

this is one reason why i want him out d1

I think I've ben mislynched twice in all the years I've played this game. Rels and OoO haven't mislynched me ever in particular, and barely anyone actually has.

Sweet glory. On one hand, he just implied that, if he's getting lynched, he's probably scum. On the other hand, would scum be so careless as to say that, since they tend to be worried more than townies about how they're perceived. Anyone have thoughts on this?

WIFOM, could be arrogant/frustrated town or gambiting/dumb scum, ignore

ftr town motivation from hapa in that statement: angry and wants to throw shade at people (sort of indirect ad hom -- "if youre voting me to lynch today you are the dumbest townies i ever played with") to get them off of a ml wagon
bad play but not strictly scummy
scum motivation: hoping town would think scum would never ever say this, not watching their words and flubbing it, same exact motivation as townie one (but with vehemence being due to wincon instead of arrogance)

so yeah ignore that statement its WIFOM at best and NAI at worst

i have offsite experience (not a ton but enough) and ive read a lot of games, both in realtime and otherwise

im not an alt, but i am (i guess, in a sense) experienced, i just havent been drowned in site meta much so occasionally i come off the opposite (noob)

i dont usually like pre-flip associatives unless i scumread all slots involved, and then its to say "and which one of these is the best for today", but heres the gist of where that goes:
hapa is active, not making a very good showing for himself, and generally stinks of scumplay
creature is lurky, pushing other folks wagons with no original reasoning, and playing to his scum meta (which most players here seem unaware of)

this means hapa will not be much harder to point at d2, and creature can probably hide among the townies d2, not to mention that a scum slot defending creature d2 could very well push "lurking is nai" (true but irrelevant) and save his slot from the lynch before we recognized what was happening. on the other hand hapa is so widely scumread that i'd bet even bucks his non-creature partner was already on wagon when creature joined (and that both will be on wagon if hes the lynch du jour)

i scumread them both, and creature and hapa have been distancing in a very artificial way (as you yourself noticed) from game start, and hapa is getting the short end of the stick there
this tells me hapa is the designated scumteam scapegoat, and that tells me that creature is the one to take out of the two due to the scumteam thinking hes a stronger player for them -- IF my scumreads are both correct.

however, its important to note, i dont think its incredibly super important of the order. id like creature d1 but if he coasts i dont think town suffers much now that ive pointed at why it would be risky, and hapas the easy lynch with scum quite possibly helping push it. my preference for the creature wagon isnt strong, it just exists

One of the hardest things to understand is sometimes, if not usually, Town will appear logically a lot worse than scum will. Considering all the above and that nugget of info, you really gotta start thinking about things beyond just black and white logic. I hope that helps.

this is the most important thing there is to learn about mafia

town is ALWAYS scummy

now getting on someones case for bad reasons isnt a bad thing if you know how to do it (i like to think i do)

you just have to make allowances for the fact that you will be SO WRONG more often than not, and get really good at reading peoples tone and actions when you put them through intensive interrogation so that you dont end up tunneling yourself into a corner
also, when to stop pushing is pretty important but i think its secondary to the rest

why do you think that hapa is more likely to contribute or self-incriminate?

creature is amazing at scumhunting d2 onward as town -- id sheep town!Creature d2 unquestioningly in fact, and i just dont do that
so why do you think hapa is the better choice here?

i know why /i/ do and that is irrelevant, i want to know why you do

[doomfeathers]

scum care more about how they look than town, always
(town is almost always going to ML, so they dont mind being the sacrificial lamb if they think it will get everyone to refocus their efforts elsewhere. scum cant afford to be a lynch target unless theyre being bussed and even then its bad)
in this case -- scum want to derail wagons that start on them, not start counterwagons, which is what hapa is doing

I would disagree. I, as town, would not want to be mislynched, because I know I'm town. If someone else is lynched, there's at least a chance of lynching scum.

Why wouldn't scum start counterwagons? How else would you derail a wagon?

everyone, tell me who is the scum laughing to the endgame in /your/ townblock
tell me /why/

Aubrey and Rels are townreads for me who could possibly turn out to be scum, if that's what you mean. Both seem to be playing to benefit town.

[doomfeathers]

Just one? I pick Aubrey, then. (Not that he's most likely to be scum, but that he's the most likely to both be scum and successfully pocket me.)

[doomfeathers]

Could someone define "pocketing"? I'm not sure I have the right definition in mind.

[doomfeathers]

(Never mind. I thought you were referencing your previous post.)

[doomfeathers]

also the number of wagons and wagon makeup tells me that no scum are on kop's wagon. anyone have any theories as to why that is?

I'd say because Kop is scum, but you're not scumreading him, so that's not going to be your answer. Are they pocketing him?

[doomfeathers]

also the number of wagons and wagon makeup tells me that no scum are on kop's wagon. anyone have any theories as to why that is?

I'd say because Kop is scum, but you're not scumreading him, so that's not going to be your answer. Are they pocketing him?

no. i honestly dont have a clue why it would be the case and it doesnt sit right -- the scum would want to be on the top two wagons, but i dont see scum being in (doomfeathers,Aubrey,Hawk)

i do see scum being in (rels,hapa) and i am absolutely 100% certain theres scum in hapa's wagon

so something is strange. i would be willing to push kops wagon if hapa makes a good (really good) showing in the near future. the "tipping point" will certainly be instructive

Could it be that scum are aiming for an unusual vote pattern or that they just don't happen to be voting Kop for individual reasons?

and im going to put this out there rn: afaiac hapa is todays lynch until and /unless/ we find someone better. when the deadline draws near we jump ship onto hapa and kill the slot unless someone better comes to hand

I'll agree to this. It makes sense.

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

All right, then.

VOTE: KidAmn

You are now the leading wagon. Replace out, get interested, or likely die. Which do you prefer?

For some reason hapahauli wagon shows so much resistance despite nobody townreading him.

That is a good point.

[doomfeathers]

Welcome, BlackVoid!

[doomfeathers]

I'm not necessarily scumreading him. It's a pressure vote, but one I'm willing to stand behind.

[doomfeathers]

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

If you're town, your needless death isn't going to help at all. If you know you're town, you should at least be trying to lynch scum. I'd suggest you replace out, but it's a little far into the game for that to be a good option. So could you maybe just finish this game you started rather than quitting?

@Cass - I've posted reads that jumped out to me as I read but full readslist will happen after I finish reading the entire thread and ISO everyone.

Won't that take a long time?

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Or do you just have lots of time on your hands?

[doomfeathers]

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

If you're town, your needless death isn't going to help at all. If you know you're town, you should at least be trying to lynch scum. I'd suggest you replace out, but it's a little far into the game for that to be a good option. So could you maybe just finish this game you started rather than quitting?

@Cass - I've posted reads that jumped out to me as I read but full readslist will happen after I finish reading the entire thread and ISO everyone.

Won't that take a long time?

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Or do you just have lots of time on your hands?

BV caught up

check above your post a bit

Sorry, I was still catching up myself. I tend to reply to one page at a time.

@KidAmn: I think the game's clearing up a bit. From what I've heard, you could be very helpful in solving this game. Is there any way we can make it more interesting for you?

@Cassielle and Creature: You two seem extraordinarily synchronized. Have you played with each other much before?

@Aubrey: Might not hapahauli have changed his behavior purposely after seeing it was going to get him nowhere as scum?

@Aubrey: The pocketing thing was less of a "most likely to be scum" and more "most likely to be able to get away with being scum".

I think my current vote is accomplishing nothing.

VOTE: Kop

Waiting until after D1 to form scumreads sounds to me like a poor excuse to lurk.

I need to evaluate Hawk and Rels.

[doomfeathers]

You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa.

Your information must be pretty old. Cassielle hasn't been scumreading Creature for a while.

[doomfeathers]

I have not left. I have been distracted for a few days. I aim to catch up today.

[doomfeathers]

@Mod: If possible, I'd like to replace out.

Sorry, guys. I've had a lot of things turn up. I'll check to see how it turns out!

Wild guess at scumteam: Rels, hapahauli, and havingfitz.