Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[KidAmn]

Vote: Allomancer

because I don't trust anyone who dabbles in the dark arts of allosauruses

[KidAmn]

I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.

It is my understanding that that is frowned upon.

[KidAmn]

Ugh when someone wants me to describe "impressions"

Okay, they aren't very serious, but when I vote in RVS, I vote whom I have a feeling that's most likely scum.

...I... you... what?

This whole clusterfuck between Ooo, Hapa and creature a) makes no sense and b) is only going to confuse everyone but you three who know each other from "parts unknown". It's not productive in the slightest IMO.

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum
Ah, but you did see something you thought was AI there or you wouldn't have asked, and since you asked without saying what you thought, I'm willing to bet it was scum-indicative.

You will get an answer to that if you jsut can wait until Rels answers to me.
To elaborate a little bit further; there is a reason Rels has somewhat earned a nickname, let's call it "mini-outoforder" here, since we both as town think a looot alike regarding certain situations and posts. My question is directed to Rels for a reason that i am trying to get a read on him. For now it's irrelevant what i do think of the post in question and i'd like people to drop it since it's pretty clear to me that you all - if you cling on that - are talking about something you cannot make a decision on in the end since you don't have all the facts. And as i said, i'll elaborate fully on it after i hear from Rels.

Is that fine?

Absolutely none of this smells like town-posting. "For now it's irrelevant what i do think of the post in question" - Uh, nope, you don't get to make that call. You also don't get to tell people to drop it while you play pretend-Sherlock with your buddy.

You asking Rels that question is reasonable. Your insistence that I back off is weird. Would you be opposed to me following up after Rels has answered?

ofc not lol. I am not even asking you to "back off". I am telling you you cannot get any more information about the matter right now so you might want to focus on something else in the meanwhile. When you hear my explanation you can decide if it makes sense or not and then make your decision. As i said, if you are town, right now this matter does not get you anywhere. I am not trying to "flush you off me", i am trying to tell you what you were doing doesn't help the town right now.

B-b-b-backpedaling! With a healthy dose of "if you're not helping

me

you're not helping the town".

[KidAmn]

Ooh, and now we're on to personal attacks.

[KidAmn]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KidAmn

Yeah no. You do not get to call the early situation a "clusterfuck" and then throw fuel on the fire.

Calling it as I see it. Asking questions and then when asked to give his own opinion saying "nope, you don't get that info right now and if you keep pushing it you're not helping town" is not pro-town play.

Not reading properly =/= mafia.

Reading something as a "clusterfuck", criticizing it as confusing/pointless, and then engaging in said clusterfuck is likely mafia. The story is inconsistent. Posting for the sake of posting, etc.

Literally my only comment on that interaction was to say it was a clusterfuck and should not continue (and yes, for some reason I mixed Creature in there because I had been quoting him above to snark at his early posting, and because Rels literally hasn't posted this game, so apologies to Creature). I then moved on to a completely separate point about Ooo's refusal to give his own opinions until people have played his little mini-game.

KidAmn, you seem pretty confident. Do you have previous experience on this site or elsewhere?

Elsewhere, and not in a format I can link it.

Unvote

since Allomancer is clearly not plotting global domination via dinosaur wizardry, while I'm here.

[KidAmn]

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

I don't get if it's a joke or not. It doesn't make sense if it's serious

Any other comments to make? Anything at all to say about the last 4 pages?

[KidAmn]

Not reading properly =/= mafia.

Reading something as a "clusterfuck", criticizing it as confusing/pointless, and then engaging in said clusterfuck is likely mafia. The story is inconsistent. Posting for the sake of posting, etc.

Literally my only comment on that interaction was to say it was a clusterfuck and should not continue (and yes, for some reason I mixed Creature in there because I had been quoting him above to snark at his early posting, and because Rels literally hasn't posted this game, so apologies to Creature). I then moved on to a completely separate point about Ooo's refusal to give his own opinions until people have played his little mini-game.

I don't understand how that's separate. OoO's "mini-game" has everything to do with the fact that him, Rels, and I have played on other websites.

I think either you're not understanding or I'm not getting it across properly: the issue isn't the existence of the mini-game, it's that Ooo refused to clue anyone else in until it was "done with" or engage the people trying to get answers out of him.

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

I don't get if it's a joke or not. It doesn't make sense if it's serious

Any other comments to make? Anything at all to say about the last 4 pages?

Where do you stand on OOO now ?

Given how determined he was/is to shit on me and dismiss anything I've said as "oh he's just stupid he isn't reading he doesn't know anything" I'm pretty happy with my vote.

[KidAmn]

Just for clarification KidAmn. Are you happy with your vote because you're actually scum reading him, or because you are frustrated with his comments directed at you, and your lashing out? because at a quick glance your last line of text seems driven by frustration.

My reason for voting for him hasn't changed since I first put the vote down. The fact that his instant reaction was to start attacking a perceived lack of ability and try to brush it off as "lol stupid but townie" instead of actually doing what several people asked and giving the information he was so heavily hinting at prior to getting his 1-line response from Rels... just kind of solidified that.

Incidentally, going back and doing some re-reading:

Since when does two enthusiastic posts make someone lean town? Town's gonna have a bad time if the bar for innocence is this low.

KidAmn calls the whole thing between myself, OoO, and Creature town.

This makes very little sense first of all, since at that point I had posted once, and Creature wasn't interacting much with OoO at all. It was you (doomfeather) and OoO that were doing most of the talking.

Despite calling the whole argument "not productive" and "confusing", he jumps right into it and accuses OoO of backpedalling.

It does not follow that you can call a conversation not productive/confusing, and accuse someone of backpedalling on the basis of that very conversation.

Emphases mine: 1st, I never said anything to the effect of "[this interaction] is town", so Hapa is outright lying here. 2nd is simply untrue again - as I explained before, the issue wasn't the conversation itself, but the refusal to discuss further with anyone else until the conversation happened, and the issue of backpedalling was that Ooo told DF to back off, then went back in #53 and tried to explain how he wasn't

really

telling him to back off.

[KidAmn]

UNVOTE: Creature

Now I don't have any scumreads. Well, at least outoforder gets company.

All townies are 1-shot PGOs. Worst-case scenario is dying without ever arming.

Since one scummie is worth about three townies, do we at some point want to all roll d3s to see whether to arm that night?

We could force scum to choose between risking death and no-killing three nights in a row.

[KidAmn]

Votecount 1.2

[L-5] outoforder - Fredrick E Campbell, MooginSoosy
[L-5] Aubrey - Creature, Kop
[L-5] havingfitz - Aubrey, hapahauli
[L-6] Allomancer - KidAmn
[L-6] Frederick E Campbell - doomfeathers

Not voting: havingfitz, outoforder, Rels, Allomancer

With 12 alive, a majority vote is decided with 7 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-01 23:00:00)

May have been missed, but I did unvote Allomancer (and thought I had put it on Ooo but apparently not).

Aghh. I missed it, my bad. I noted that I missed this in the previous Votecounts and the next one. I'll be careful from here on out.

[KidAmn]

Kid needs to make re-showing too.

I know, I do have a relatively busy life outside of this site though, especially on weekends.

Far too many people coasting along not posting at all right now. F.E.C.'s complete lack of any content and then suddenly 4 posts in a row attacking Aubrey and Creature is all kinds of weird and feels a lot like someone maintaining the absolute minimum required to stay in the game - whether or not that's "scummy" is hard to say, but it's an incredibly anti-town way to play (and yes, there is a difference between "anti-town" and "scummy".

Similarly something feels off to me about Creature - the rather blasé nature of their posting, throwing out town and scum-reads with little to no reasoning (looking at their ISO, their longest post is a whole 3 lines?)... it just comes across as the opposite of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - and certainly not a tale told by an idiot. It's deliberate and I dislike it, but unfortunately it matches up with looking at their posting in a couple of other games I've looked at. Having Allomancer as one of their scumreads despite them being so inactive they've picked up a prod also feels lazy as hell, as if they're covering themselves by saying "I had a scumread on Allomancer" for if/when a "fuck it, get rid of these lurkers" wagon happens.

Look at that crap. You know I didn't buddy in our last game as scum.

[KidAmn]

I've been driving the wife around all day, cut a fella some slack on the meme game.
As for the vote - Honestly, right now I could go for F.E.C. or Creature, but I'm willing to give both a chance to respond (Creature more-so as my issue with him seems to just be

how he plays

). Moogin needs to contribute way more than they have so far, so not disagreeable to putting some pressure there either.

[KidAmn]

I voted havingfitz because I haven't seen anybody do anything that makes me actually scumread them yet. I figured that if that's the case then the person who I know is hard for me to read is more likely to be scum.

Nuts, you're right. He is on V/LA. I must have been tired last night. I'll go through the thread yet another time and see if I can find someone to vote.

@MOD: Could you prod Allomancer, please?

KidAmn, when you post a gif but don't explain the faults in anyone's reasoning, it just comes across as passive-aggressive and unhelpful. Could you maybe explain your objections?

I dislike the use of meta in general (outside of posting style - i.e. I don't like Creature's non-committal and... spartan posting style, but I can look at a decent chunk of his games and see it's consistent) but referencing one's own meta as Aubrey did is one of the most glaringly useless things there is - anyone capable of brief introspection can play to or against their own "meta" given enough ability.

PEdit:

VOTE: hapahauli

Not really scummy. More less not-scummy.

Looks like I get to fire a similar question at you: could you maybe explain this for me?

[KidAmn]

lol, fine Kid. Let's get on with it. Do you think I'm scum and was budding Creature as Kop suggested? If the answer is yes, bring it. If the answer is no, then move on and get over the meta crap.

I don't have any massively strong feelings on you one way or the other - if pushed I'd lean town simply because scum could be coasting through this day very happily without doing much at all at this point, and you're doing quite the opposite. I just dislike the meta comments and wanted to make that clear in a sufficiently wavy manner, as I am reliably informed the kids say these days.

[KidAmn]

I mean, they haven't posted

at all

so I'd hesitate to put any kind of motive behind a lack of action just yet.

[KidAmn]

Mod:

Replace me out. My mental state is in a mess... again.

Hope things improve. Weakens my scum read on your slot a little to know about, but still hard to reconcile that burst of 4 posts with town motive.

[KidAmn]

He's pretty critical of people "coasting", but that's basically what he's doing himself this game. He has 16 posts, most of which were made while defending himself from my early-game push against him. Scum love to criticize town for fucking up, but do nothing themselves to help the situation.

Secondly, probably the most substantial thing he has in his filter deals with his "read" on Creature:

Similarly something feels off to me about Creature - the rather blasé nature of their posting, throwing out town and scum-reads with little to no reasoning (looking at their ISO, their longest post is a whole 3 lines?)... it just comes across as the opposite of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - and certainly not a tale told by an idiot. It's deliberate and I dislike it, but unfortunately it matches up with looking at their posting in a couple of other games I've looked at. Having Allomancer as one of their scumreads despite them being so inactive they've picked up a prod also feels lazy as hell, as if they're covering themselves by saying "I had a scumread on Allomancer" for if/when a "fuck it, get rid of these lurkers" wagon happens.

I've been driving the wife around all day, cut a fella some slack on the meme game.
As for the vote - Honestly, right now I could go for F.E.C. or Creature, but I'm willing to give both a chance to respond (Creature more-so as my issue with him seems to just be

how he plays

). Moogin needs to contribute way more than they have so far, so not disagreeable to putting some pressure there either.

In the first post, he calls Creature mafia for questionable reasons. This isn't inherently scummy - I'd understand why a less experienced townie could call Creature mafia for his posting style.

However the second post is quite scummy.

He mentions supporting a vote on Creature, while giving good reasons to call creature town. He then finishes off by throwing Shade at a 3rd player. It's very hard for me to see this post coming from town.

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

There's no mention of why he thinks Creature could be more likely mafia than town. He basically acknowledges that all of his reasons to vote Creature are non alignment indicative, yet he clearly states that he would vote him.

I don't have a ton of time to respond to all this bullshit where Hapahauli runs back to his first scum-reads again to drum up a counter wagon instead of doing anything productive, so I'm just gonna make some things clear:

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

- The idea that being willing to give FEC and Creature a chance to respond to my issues is scummy is straight up bullshit. If giving people chances to respond is anti-town and making use of the time the town has to discuss things is anti-town then I want a ticket to whatever bizzaro world you're on. You also conveniently ignore that my issue isn't just with his style of posting, I also referred to the fact that he was throwing out town and scum reads with little reasoning behind them AND him throwing a town read on Allomancer who had done nothing of note all game

- You conveniently ignore that my other scum read at the time (FEC) was solidly based on a series of particularly scummy looking posts

PEDIT - as Doomfeather says you literally do the thing you accuse me of where you call kop scum and then list a bunch of reasons he could be town

In summary, bite my shiny metal ass
VOTE: Hapahauli

[KidAmn]

Also holy crap responding to all these walls of text is literal dicks on a phone.

Also GRATS HAWK

[KidAmn]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

[KidAmn]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz
Kop is not my second strongest read. Where do you get that?

[KidAmn]

Jfc phone posting. Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz.

Point still stands, and calling you out on your bullshit with actual arguments is the opposite of "OMGUS" - the definition of OMGUS is a vote with no real reason other than 'fuck you' although that is basically my thoughts right now

[KidAmn]

...at this point I'm going to assume you're scum being intentionally dense because nobody can be this goddamn dumb after both doom and I have pointed out the inconsistency to you, so good night.

[KidAmn]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

KidDamn are you saying it's a contradiction because he gave case for both scum and town Kop or are you saying it's a contradiction because you think it's hypocritical line of thinking?

It's hypocritical. It's saying "Kid doing this thing [giving reasons why my read on Creature might not have been the strongest] is bad" and then turning around and calling Fitz (not Kop, that was a mistype on my part) scum but following it up with "but here's a bunch of reasons my read on him isn't as strong as on Kid"

[KidAmn]

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

Open 658 was a game I played in which both Aubrey and Creature also played. I was NKed N1. Havingfitz later replaced in and won as scum with BK201 and Gamma Emerald; I don't believe I ever actually interacted with him that game. Unfortunately, day 1 lasted for 42 pages.

12) Flubbernugget

doomfeathers

lynched day 5 - Vanilla Townie

So you replaced out and your slot died D5 to a lynch. Why exactly would you lie about that?

Not gonna lie my enthusiasm for this game has been fucking tanked by the amount of other games and off-site games and "oh-ho-ho I know what he does because of playing on another site and here is a wall of text about it".

[KidAmn]

What's more likely here? That I went into this game screaming at my team to bus me? Or that there are quite a few mafia members suspicious of me for super sketchy reasons that don't make sense anymore.

It's very clear that Cassielle is mafia. How she's tunneling me is not confirmation bias. She's suspicious of me because it's the popular thing to do, and never had any interest in figuring out my alignment.

Or you're her strongest scum-read and she wants to get the wagon on you to the end on a long D1. Not to mention that the scum having day-talk makes your first point null and void since as the wagon on you grew you could very easily as scum say to your team "bus me while looking for other wagons we can derail on in case the town can't finish the job here". Also, repeatedly stating "there's no real case on me whaarblgarble ur all trash" does not make this true.

[KidAmn]

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

[KidAmn]

kidamn has gone from extremely invested to completely uninvested very quickly with no "warning signs" popping up. this feels like scum trying to redirect, to me. it doesnt feel like townie apathy, as i look into it (esp in context) -- theres missing signs, the whole "back off" thing isnt visible in posts prior. theres townie reasoning wrt his scumreads and people's play, but with daytalk, thats less meaningful because you can always go "hey does this look like obvtown?" in the scum pt

kidamn has the /potential/ (if town) to be a pretty damned good pro-town force. i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning for his coasty apathetic play. if he is town, as the wagon fills up he needs to get on top of this game and start being the pro-town player he can be. pressurevoting is an appropriate way to lean on the slot

kidamn's apathy appears (AFAICT) to stem from not being able to push a single scumread -- when there are 3 scum in the game -- without resistance from two other slots interfering
there are very rare cases where you can benefit from digging your heels in and going full lockdown on who you want to deal with -- this isnt one of those cases. due to the setup, any scumlynch is a good scumlynch here (they're all goons), and while you can have /preferences/ you should be willing and able to point at and push a diff scumread if your preferred wagon stalls.
but kidamn is letting two players destroy his case instead of trying to push outside of their circle (and thereby speak to a large group of people who do agree with him)

this says to me that kidamn wants to ml a pro-town player early while the paranoia is rampant and before town can swing associatives, VCA and NKA into play
or that kidamn wants to bus a scum player early and fast for towncred and is feeling nervous/frustrated that townies are derailing that wagon
...or that kidamn is town who doesnt realize how anti-town hes acting -- so heres a wakeup call: dont hit the snooze button, get the hell up

in general i think that kidamn has more of a chance to save himself from the d1 lynch than hapa, due to reading like frustrated town in large part -- pressure and reiterating that i think kidamn can pull himself out of this hole hammers in the idea that he needs to bring his town game to the table ASAP. this is ultimately pro-town because hes an active player who can infodump with the best of them, and i dont think he can smoothly recover from the obvious scumplay if he is actually scum
but if he doesnt step up to the plate, we can only assume that, at best, hes town actively working against his wincon, and at worst, hes scum who took the demotivated townie charade too far

Above post edited with cass own EBWOP

hi BV

yeah i would /love/ to lynch kidamn, esp because i tried to engage with him and got totally 100% ignored
but that apathy is townish to me.

lets watch BV for now, i think their play will be highly instructive

Okay, first off "no warning signs":

Ugh when someone wants me to describe "impressions"

Okay, they aren't very serious, but when I vote in RVS, I vote whom I have a feeling that's most likely scum.

...I... you... what?

This whole clusterfuck between Ooo, Hapa and creature a) makes no sense and b) is only going to confuse everyone but you three who know each other from "parts unknown". It's not productive in the slightest IMO.

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

Also holy crap responding to all these walls of text is literal dicks on a phone.

Not gonna lie my enthusiasm for this game has been fucking tanked by the amount of other games and off-site games and "oh-ho-ho I know what he does because of playing on another site and here is a wall of text about it".

How much clearer would you like me to spell out my distaste for the playstyle of the majority of this day?

2nd - it's interesting that in these 2 posts your first instinct was to say my apathy didn't "feel" town, then you walk back and forward on that throughout - you say "i would rather not ML him but im not seeing the town reasoning" which I could almost think is a slip; then it's "[Kid] wants to ml a pro-town player early while the paranoia is rampant and before town can swing associatives, VCA and NKA into play, or that kidamn wants to bus a scum player early and fast for towncred and is feeling nervous/frustrated that townies are derailing that wagon" and then at the end we're back to "nah you can totally save yourself from the lynch way better than hapa" (I should fucking hope so). But yeah, this whole post feels really odd and swingy and unwilling to commit either way on me. Not to mention the whole "I would love to lynch Kid but his apathy feels townish to me" thing.

3rd - yes, I've been "tunnelling" or however you want to refer to it on Hapa. He's my strongest scumread, the fuck else do you expect. You want me to look at other people? Look at the people bouncing onto my wagon as soon as someone dropped a pressure vote on me. A wagon that has conveniently outpaced Hapa's wagon, despite the people on mine complaining about how long Hapa's wagon is taking (Creature). Look at the first vote on me, from Rels, whose case on me extends to thinking I'm stretching for pointing out Hapa's hypocrisy in his case on me and quoting a bunch of things without offering any actual commentary (and getting a free pass on this because his post count is really high without saying anything)

4th - I don't give a damn about living any further right now here. If I do end up being the lynch, at least it gets this interminable first day over and gives people something solid to look at when I flip town. So if you're gonna do it, get it the fuck over with already.

[KidAmn]

Must... resist... making... joke...

[KidAmn]

Weeooo weeeeooo new diversion wagon detect

[KidAmn]

Also thanks for confirming you're not actually reading the game Ooo - Case has been off my wagon for several pages

[KidAmn]

I usually think of it as a ballache at this point tee bee haitch

[KidAmn]

Mod: a vote count would be nice pleasant thank you

Mostly because IIRC we don't have much time left?

[KidAmn]

Mod: a vote count would be nice please and thank you

Mostly because IIRC we don't have much time left?

So let's talk about how awful phone posting is

But for real, Rels' first post back from V/LA needs to be an actual case on me and ooo's lipservice to the Haha wagon while putting his vote anywhere but it as the day drags on is duly noted

[KidAmn]

Or yknow Rels could just get on a wagon that isn't led by flailing scum and pressure votes, w/e

[KidAmn]

I've already stated my dislike for Rels and tbh Cass is the only thing driving this town at this point, but I'm still not crazy about us going from "Hapa is the lynch but let's look at other stuff first" to "Rels is the lynch and don't any of you dare stall"

That said I'm willing to bow to my strongest town read at this point for now and it's not a lynch I disagree with on its own merits so

Vote: Rels

[KidAmn]

Hap disappearing as soon as people start looking elsewhere is sketch as fuck, as is Rels and BV suddenly going ham on counterwagons

Vote Hapahauli

because we really need to get SOMETHING out of this day and Hapascum swinging is best for business

[KidAmn]

"i dont think hap is an acceptable loss as town" - the dude has gone completely silent and is a few hours from being forcereplaced while posting elsewhere

"I don't know where kid is getting the idea me and Rels are going ham on counterwagons" - currently voting Aubrey a completely unviable wagon

Hmmmmmmmmmm

[KidAmn]

Kinda get the feeling Hapa accepted he's the lynch and decided not to drop any more crumbs tbh

[KidAmn]

Lets lynch the omgusfitz!
Because he's gonna flip scum. Not sold on aubrey being mafia. Kop could be a good alternative to lynch. I dont wanna lynch hapa because i dont really think he is mafia and when he is not mafia his reads are good.

I have also decided that cassielle is town and i wont be reading any of her posts because they make literally zero sense.

If anyone wants some good laughs go read why havingfitz thinks creature is mafia. "All over the place" and "doesnt interact well eith others" != mafia. In fact its way more often the other way around. There is absolutely zero reason to think someone is mafia for that. In fact i dont understand any of his reads. All his scumreads are basically "i dont like how the person posts" which never makes anyone scum.

This sequence of posting makes me more than happy with an Ooo lynch. Will do more wordsing when I get out of work.

[KidAmn]

My vote is where I feel most confident in it and where my read has been strongest the longest. I will likely not be able to post again before deadline.

[KidAmn]

Phreeeow.

[KidAmn]

Lets lynch the omgusfitz!
Because he's gonna flip scum. Not sold on aubrey being mafia. Kop could be a good alternative to lynch. I dont wanna lynch hapa because i dont really think he is mafia and when he is not mafia his reads are good.

I have also decided that cassielle is town and i wont be reading any of her posts because they make literally zero sense.

If anyone wants some good laughs go read why havingfitz thinks creature is mafia. "All over the place" and "doesnt interact well eith others" != mafia. In fact its way more often the other way around. There is absolutely zero reason to think someone is mafia for that. In fact i dont understand any of his reads. All his scumreads are basically "i dont like how the person posts" which never makes anyone scum.

This sequence of posting makes me more than happy with an Ooo lynch. Will do more wordsing when I get out of work.

I am going to wait one day for an answer to this, which is something you promised but never followed up on.
I am especially interested in second quote, not in a sense of where you are coming from since you said it already in your post 895, but in a sense of how on earth you can possibly think the player who is literally most disruptive to the town in this game can possibly be the "driving force" behind the town. It doesn't make any sense.

Or maybe it's just a playstyle thing. But you can also think about it a little by yourself, was it better to actively try to solve the game or was it better to actively shut down any wagons for the last 3 days or so and just yell some random things. Give it a thought.

First quote - accusing Fitz of OMGUS. Fitz has not voted you since RVS. He has stated he has suspected you, but that appears to mostly be because you won't actually answer with what your case on him is: looking through your ISO, I've seen the following:

TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't understand this since i am not casing either of them, at least regarding their votes. If i was i would clearly point that out.

I am townreading him because of his posts on MooginSoosy (who i am also suspicious of for reasons i will outline soon). And because of WHY he townreads you, not just because he townreads you -- since i share the opinion of why you are town as i pointed earlier.

Basically - if you go read MooginSoosy's posts, she gave townreads on me, Rels and Creature.
When being prodded about the townreads she retracted from all of them except for the townread on me. I don't understand why he townread Rels and Creature in the first place, since there is no real explanation. Basically the read on Rels she has shouldn't have been a townread in the first place since almost everything Rels has posted is why she retracted from the read... I don't understand the read - or the change of read - on Creature at all. I don't see the thoguht process. I don't understand the read on me either since she literally said she has a townread on me for a post she doesn't know why i even posted that?!?!?!? I mean like, wtf does that even mean or how can she come to a such conclusion. And i certainly don't like her vote on doomfeathers since i heavily disagree with the case.

fitz' big post didn't change anything for me regarding the read on him. Still think he is likely to be mafia.

hapahauli needs to do more shit, right now he doesn't look good (basically playing way below his town!play level imo). While i am not certain he is mafia i was before, i definitely don't have a town read on him.

Fredrick E Campbell gets a scumlean for what i said before. I don't understand how someone can read the thread in that kinda manner. For me it looks like he is just taking some random things at a random time to cprod on them without actually thinking why people even do the stuff they do.

Basically this is where i stand:

town (in no specific order other than Rels):

Aubrey
Kop
KidAmn
doomfeathers
Creature

Rels

Useless / undecided on:

Allomancer*
hapahauli

Current scumreads (the lower - more scummy):

MooginSoosy / Fredrick E Campbell
havingfitz

Btw i still think havingfitz is scum. I went to reread his filter and what he basically did in his wall of text was this:\
- I don't like wall of texts -> writes a wall of text -> the conclusion he ends up in is "now let me continue and post my reads later".......

VOTE: havingfitz

- with you initially stating you had a "slight" scumread on him due to something Aubrey posted. That last quote is the only point you've been actively pushing on Fitz on all day; meanwhile Fitz has repeatedly asked you to state a case beyond this with no detailed response from you beyond complaining about his walls having no substance in #1006 (which I strongly disagree with).

Second quote: You're literally stating you're going to ignore a player. I cordially invite you to explain precisely how that (and indeed all the other outright personal attacks you have made on players throughout this game so far) is a pro-town attitude.

Third quote is a blatant misrep, that only references "all over the place" in Fitz' ISO #10 (#523) while ignoring

He entered the game very reluctant to provide any legitimate responses and/or blew off questions. He has expressed a willingness to vote "almost" anyone. His flips in opinion on me (and his buddy Aubrey) have come seemingly out of nowhere and I fail to see any pro-town content coming from him.

And the fact this line was snipped from a post over 2 weeks ago.

I am 100% behind an OoO lynch even without any of what I've provided above, because the player has been remarkably unpleasant to multiple players, to the point that given what I've read of MS rules I am frankly amazed he is still here. Thankfully, the amount of misrep and ad hom over actual town-posting makes me fairly sure the slot is scum regardless.
VOTE: Outoforder

PEDIT:

You, BV, Cass and momo town. Am I missing someone?

I kinda think Kop is town too because after Aubrey wagon got derailed i believe scum were trying to lynch Kop. That has to be the case unless we assume scum are playing like complete idiots and didn't even try to get anyone lynched. I also believe there is never more than 1 mafia in the Hawk wagon, so at least one of Hapa and Rels has to be town. For your townreads i do agree.

Basically i am left with:
havingfitz
KidAmn
(Hapa/Rels)

Rels had some posts that i found out possibly coming from scum!Rels. Hapa wagon was gladly accepted by almost all of the players, so idk.. that probably makes him town? I have to look back and see who actually weren't willing to lynch Hapa and if that could mean something. KidAmn fits as scum though, since while imo he was one of the "easy lynches" for scum to try push on (if town), he wasn't really being pushed while making some posts i found super irrational.

Idk if Rels would vote for Hawk like that as mafia so i am puzzled about that too. I'd have to check back some older games and how Rels has played as mafia when i get a chance to. The fact however is that Rels is usually a player who tries to drive the thread as scum, and there are a LOOOOT of "good" cases to be made (from scum perspective) on D1. I am not quite sure why he didn't take the chance assuming he is scum as he for sure had plenty of those chances.

What a surprise, as soon as I express suspicion of Ooo I'm back up on his suspect list already, when not too long ago...

And btw KidAm is not fucking mafia...

With a healthy dose of more blatant lying - apparently being at L-2 for a significant chunk of yesterday doesn't count as being pushed v0v

[KidAmn]

- with you initially stating you had a "slight" scumread on him due to something Aubrey posted. That last quote is the only point you've been actively pushing on Fitz on all day; meanwhile Fitz has repeatedly asked you to state a case beyond this with no detailed response from you beyond complaining about his walls having no substance in #1006 (which I strongly disagree with).

So basically in your world when someone makes a case and the person answers "make another case as you don't have one" the first player needs to provide another case?
idk how this even... rofl :p

My case is perfectly logical. I haven't ad hom'd anyone. I have called out bad as bad. If that's ad hom in your opinion you have done the same yourself, multiple times. You have literally - yourself - called other players bad and dumb so there you go.

YOUR CASE IS 3 SENTENCES LONG AND HAS NEVER BEEN EXPANDED ON. FITZ HAS NOT ASKED YOU TO "MAKE ANOTHER CASE", HE JUST WANTS MORE THAN A GODDAMN PARAGRAPH.

I haven't ad hom'd anyone.

I think you lack a lot of reading comprehension.

I wasn't refusing to give answers, i was saying i will delay my answer for the reason in the quote above. Somehow this KidAm dude cannot process that... It seems like he just actually believes in his argument and for some reason cannot understand the posts i (and apparently other people aswell?) write.

No it isnt. Maybe you are just not bright but i explained it at least three times....

Wtf are yoy doing? I want an answer. That is terrible man.

I have also decided that cassielle is town and i wont be reading any of her posts because they make literally zero sense.

And speaking of talking shit you are getting on my nerves really hard because YOU are the ONLY person who filled this fucking thread with shit for the last three pages or so. So try to get some fucking grip and start playing mafia.

Uh-huh.

[KidAmn]

BlackVoid will come here and will do a "small fix" on this outoforder wagon.

At least i am basically waiting for seeing where BlackVoid stands.
Also interested in where Hapa and Rels stand after D1 and with the new information on the table.
We are pretty much on the same page and i have not much interest in Kop since based on VCA i don't think he can be scum.
Letting momo to catch up and i don't really think his slot is scum here anyways. Discussing anything with cassielle or KidAmn seems like a dead end and both of them are voting for me because they don't like me so i don't even really feel the need, or care to defend myself against that.

Creature (or anyone with like over 10 games of experience on this site):
How likely it is that mafia would try to "derail" a D1 lynch on their partner into a no-lynch by making a case on another partner of theirs? Basically do no-lynches happen, and if yes, how often, in IML games (D1)?

So to misrep and adhom we can now add appeal to authority and false equivalency (this thing would never happen in regular games so it clearly wouldn't happen in a game where everyone is either scum or a 1-shot PGO).

[KidAmn]

yeah that what makes the most sense. Apart from that one Hawk post that made me think Hawk / KidDamn would be weird:

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

OMG the amount of times that this response has been the first lynch in games is ridiculous.

Kid come on give a case or if that one's falling through push your second scumread don't just resign to defeat. You're at like what L-4?

Who's been pinging you lately? Who's posts just haven't been up to scruff??

But it makes waaaay more sense than any other scum team.

I'm still trying to work out just what your actual case for me as scum is, because the most you've done is a series of spammy single line posts that have decided on and then dismissed Hapa as scum, and decided I must be scum with Fitz because... Reasons? Which you've never given? And prior to this the most you've done is quote a bunch of my posts and vote me. If anyone deserves to be accused of not caring enough about their wagon it's you imo, your posts say almost nothing in terms of actual reasoning.

[KidAmn]

yeah that what makes the most sense. Apart from that one Hawk post that made me think Hawk / KidDamn would be weird:

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

OMG the amount of times that this response has been the first lynch in games is ridiculous.

Kid come on give a case or if that one's falling through push your second scumread don't just resign to defeat. You're at like what L-4?

Who's been pinging you lately? Who's posts just haven't been up to scruff??

But it makes waaaay more sense than any other scum team.

I'm still trying to work out just what your actual case for me as scum is, because the most you've done is a series of spammy single line posts that have decided on and then dismissed Hapa as scum, and decided I must be scum with Fitz because... Reasons? Which you've never given? And prior to this the most you've done is quote a bunch of my posts and vote me. If anyone deserves to be accused of not caring enough about their wagon it's you imo, your posts say almost nothing in terms of actual reasoning.

- POE. Almost everyone else is townier than you.
- Partner POE. Lots of people don't make sense together as a scum team. You on the contrary makes sense with Fitz. You have talk about him quite a lot, you're attacking OOO for his Fitz read actually, but I don't see you having an opinion on him.
- Your defense against Hapa's pressure. It was scummy. Very scummy. Like a scum who got caught. OMGUS, stretching reasons to attack his opponent.
- Your play since then. Mostly forgettable. Wasn't there for the deadline, didn't vote Hawk.
Why if Fitz town ?

Deadline was around 3am my time on a workday. Not happening, didn't realise timezones were scumreads now.

My play is "Mostly forgettable" Come up with something objective and I might actually respond to it.

My main scumread is pushing Fitz for reasons you yourself admitted on D1 had almost nothing tangible behind them. Fitz has mostly been VLA and the whole thing feels like a very desperate and unpleasantly aggressive Ooo trying to push a mismatch on very little case and lots of "omg look at this lurking scum omg his walls have nothing because I say so". I didn't agree with the case D1 and the insistence combined with the attacks on people who disagree from Ooo and yourself feels off. That's why I think he's town, and I would love to hear why you think I would go to bat for someone this hard if you genuinely think I'm in a scumteam with them, having already lost 1 out of 3.

Incidentally, repeatedly calling my calling out of Hapa's hypocrisy in his D1 case on me OMGUS will not make it true.

[KidAmn]

OOO plays like that though.

Then he can go back to TL and repeatedly insult people in lieu of a case there because as several people have said, that doesn't fly here.

[KidAmn]

My main scumread is pushing Fitz for reasons you yourself admitted on D1 had almost nothing tangible behind them. Fitz has mostly been VLA and the whole thing feels like a very desperate and unpleasantly aggressive Ooo trying to push a mismatch on very little case and lots of "omg look at this lurking scum omg his walls have nothing because I say so". I didn't agree with the case D1 and the insistence combined with the attacks on people who disagree from Ooo and yourself feels off. That's why I think he's town, and

I would love to hear why you think I would go to bat for someone this hard if you genuinely think I'm in a scumteam with them, having already lost 1 out of 3.

So the only thing pointing at Fitz being town is that scummy people are pushing for him ?
I also don't understand the bolded. "Why would you try to get your teammate out of the lynch when you already lost 1 out of 3" ? Well, the answer is in the question.

Incidentally, repeatedly calling my calling out of Hapa's hypocrisy in his D1 case on me OMGUS will not make it true.

Stretching reasons to calling your attacker scum then getting the fuck out of the thread in frustration is actually exactly that.

Are you really saying that you wouldn't lean town on someone being pushed by your main scumread?

And again: repeatedly saying a thing doesn't make it true.

[KidAmn]

i have thoughts on the rels/kidamn interaction going on but im saving them while i wait for the big damn mistake that's a-coming down the pipe
someone in this thread isnt paying attention and i won't say whooooo

Nah, that shit didn't fly D1, it doesnt fly now either.

[KidAmn]

Shockingly, I'm actually going to agree with Rels and ask you for an explanation here Cass. You're making it sound like you want Rels and I to keep dancing for your amusement here and I'd rather not continue until I know the tune.

[KidAmn]

Would like to see where exactly Cass thinks Rels has deliberately misinterpreted me. FWIW I think most of his arguments have come from a point of good faith so I'm wondering what Cass thinks she's seen that I haven't.

[KidAmn]

Would like to see where exactly Cass thinks Rels has deliberately misinterpreted me. FWIW I think most of his arguments have come from a point of good faith so I'm wondering what Cass thinks she's seen that I haven't.

i never ever said deliberately misinterpreted

Fair point - looking back you said he was either skimreading or cherrypicking, which is where I picked that up from. The amended question still stands with regards to where Rels has misrepresented, intent notwithstanding.

[KidAmn]

yeah that what makes the most sense. Apart from that one Hawk post that made me think Hawk / KidDamn would be weird:

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

OMG the amount of times that this response has been the first lynch in games is ridiculous.

Kid come on give a case or if that one's falling through push your second scumread don't just resign to defeat. You're at like what L-4?

Who's been pinging you lately? Who's posts just haven't been up to scruff??

But it makes waaaay more sense than any other scum team.

I'm still trying to work out just what your actual case for me as scum is, because the most you've done is a series of spammy single line posts that have decided on and then dismissed Hapa as scum, and decided I must be scum with Fitz because... Reasons? Which you've never given? And prior to this the most you've done is quote a bunch of my posts and vote me. If anyone deserves to be accused of not caring enough about their wagon it's you imo, your posts say almost nothing in terms of actual reasoning.

- POE. Almost everyone else is townier than you.
- Partner POE. Lots of people don't make sense together as a scum team. You on the contrary makes sense with Fitz. You have talk about him quite a lot, you're attacking OOO for his Fitz read actually, but I don't see you having an opinion on him.
- Your defense against Hapa's pressure. It was scummy. Very scummy. Like a scum who got caught. OMGUS, stretching reasons to attack his opponent.
- Your play since then. Mostly forgettable. Wasn't there for the deadline, didn't vote Hawk.
Why if Fitz town ?

Deadline was around 3am my time on a workday. Not happening, didn't realise timezones were scumreads now.

My play is "Mostly forgettable" Come up with something objective and I might actually respond to it.

My main scumread is pushing Fitz for reasons you yourself admitted on D1 had almost nothing tangible behind them. Fitz has mostly been VLA and the whole thing feels like a very desperate and unpleasantly aggressive Ooo trying to push a mismatch on very little case and lots of "omg look at this lurking scum omg his walls have nothing because I say so". I didn't agree with the case D1 and the insistence combined with the attacks on people who disagree from Ooo and yourself feels off. That's why I think he's town, and I would love to hear why you think I would go to bat for someone this hard if you genuinely think I'm in a scumteam with them, having already lost 1 out of 3.

Incidentally, repeatedly calling my calling out of Hapa's hypocrisy in his D1 case on me OMGUS will not make it true.

idk why i need to point it out to you when you pointed it out yourself but i mean lets do this

Spoiler: quotedump

He's pretty critical of people "coasting", but that's basically what he's doing himself this game. He has 16 posts, most of which were made while defending himself from my early-game push against him. Scum love to criticize town for fucking up, but do nothing themselves to help the situation.

Secondly, probably the most substantial thing he has in his filter deals with his "read" on Creature:

Similarly something feels off to me about Creature - the rather blasé nature of their posting, throwing out town and scum-reads with little to no reasoning (looking at their ISO, their longest post is a whole 3 lines?)... it just comes across as the opposite of "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" - and certainly not a tale told by an idiot. It's deliberate and I dislike it, but unfortunately it matches up with looking at their posting in a couple of other games I've looked at. Having Allomancer as one of their scumreads despite them being so inactive they've picked up a prod also feels lazy as hell, as if they're covering themselves by saying "I had a scumread on Allomancer" for if/when a "fuck it, get rid of these lurkers" wagon happens.

I've been driving the wife around all day, cut a fella some slack on the meme game.
As for the vote - Honestly, right now I could go for F.E.C. or Creature, but I'm willing to give both a chance to respond (Creature more-so as my issue with him seems to just be

how he plays

). Moogin needs to contribute way more than they have so far, so not disagreeable to putting some pressure there either.

In the first post, he calls Creature mafia for questionable reasons. This isn't inherently scummy - I'd understand why a less experienced townie could call Creature mafia for his posting style.

However the second post is quite scummy.

He mentions supporting a vote on Creature, while giving good reasons to call creature town. He then finishes off by throwing Shade at a 3rd player. It's very hard for me to see this post coming from town.

The thought process of a townie is "I think <player> is mafia, therefore I should vote <player>."
NOT
"<Player> can be town for <reasons>, but I'm cool with voting him anyway."

That's not a town mentality. Town want to lynch players that they're suspicious of, not players who they have reasons to think are NOT suspicious.

There's no mention of why he thinks Creature could be more likely mafia than town. He basically acknowledges that all of his reasons to vote Creature are non alignment indicative, yet he clearly states that he would vote him.

I don't have a ton of time to respond to all this bullshit where Hapahauli runs back to his first scum-reads again to drum up a counter wagon instead of doing anything productive, so I'm just gonna make some things clear:

- I'm "coasting" because I work 50 hours a week in an environment where I don't get to spend my time sat at a desk posting walls of waffle about interactions with players on a completely different site, so yes, my posting is sporadic

- The idea that being willing to give FEC and Creature a chance to respond to my issues is scummy is straight up bullshit. If giving people chances to respond is anti-town and making use of the time the town has to discuss things is anti-town then I want a ticket to whatever bizzaro world you're on. You also conveniently ignore that my issue isn't just with his style of posting, I also referred to the fact that he was throwing out town and scum reads with little reasoning behind them AND him throwing a town read on Allomancer who had done nothing of note all game

- You conveniently ignore that my other scum read at the time (FEC) was solidly based on a series of particularly scummy looking posts

PEDIT - as Doomfeather says you literally do the thing you accuse me of where you call kop scum and then list a bunch of reasons he could be town

In summary, bite my shiny metal ass
VOTE: Hapahauli

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

Jfc phone posting. Mistype on my part from all these fucking walls of text - should be Fitz.

Point still stands, and calling you out on your bullshit with actual arguments is the opposite of "OMGUS" - the definition of OMGUS is a vote with no real reason other than 'fuck you' although that is basically my thoughts right now

misrep because you clearly outlined (TWICE) why precisely your vote wasnt OMGUS, you gave him information that should have jogged his memory ("pointing out his hypocrisy"), you all but started waving your arms at the posts and yelling "LOOK WITH YOUR EYES HERE MAN WTF" and he still said the same things about what you were doing

reminder: not reading is not in and of itself scum (though it has strengthened my PRE-EXISTING scumread of his slot due to being lightly indicative of scum)
but its important to point out regardless
why?
because it sets a baseline for how his slot plays at this point in time, which turns NAI posts into AI strategic play in some cases

so i pointed it out while it was still the case /and/ after it looked like he wasnt going to continue to inflate the amount of evidence of it

Oh, that's it? From the way you talked it up I assumed it was something new, hence the confusion.

[KidAmn]

I get poe....some of my reads are based on it. But how is Aubrey linked to me giving he was pretty much confirmed town? I don't see anyone being implicated by Aubrey's nk.

Now if people want to hold my Aubrey suspicions against me in light of his flip...that's different. Misguided but more valid.

and so someone doesnt know what nightkill analysis is or is trying to obfuscate and redirect

so i ask again: anyone saying no to a fitz lynch?

VOTE: havingfitz

I'm hesitant because several people I'm leery of are in favour of it, especially the fact that Ooo is posting shit like this

Hapahauli cannot possibly be mafia with anyone in this game except for maybe Creature and Cassielle and neither of those combinations make any sense to me. So there is that.
If you wanna lynch Hapa i'll put my own game in the line because i actually feel that strong about it right now. If you want to lynch Hapa the only player he really makes sense as mafia is me, so i propose that you lynch me instead of him.

Then you just don't get retarded and lynch

havingfitz

. Then you can still lynch both of

KidAmn and Rels.

And that's going to win the game. We can afford 2 mislynches.

I will help you with self-voting if that's the case.
I'd rather lynch mafia though.

Which is full of alternative facts (Hapa cannot be scum with anyone but Creature and Cass) and "Lynch these 3 and you win the game" which is one of those too good to be true things (especially given I know that I'm on that list as town which means at least one of those lynches is a mislynch). I get very wary of anyone, no matter how strong a townread I might have on them, who presents a list of things YOU MUST DO AND YOU WILL WIN GAME (outside of very specific and obvious scenarios obviously) and Ooo hasn't qualified as a townread in any sense of the word in a long time.

The amount of aggro followed by weird roundabout agreement between Ooo and Cass is bothering me too. Not sure if hatef**k or they're doing exactly what Cass purported to believe Rels/Ooo to be doing, but the fact Cass went from

the problem with this is WIFOM

would scum say this to get the towncred of saying it? we dont/cant know

i mean i know you put effort into this post and all but all im thinking atm is "sure, lets do that" because that possible-bluff almost deserves calling
VOTE: outoforder

to jumping on the wagon Ooo wanted in the space of ~2 pages

So yeah, to answer your question, right now I emphatically do not want any part of this wagon.

[KidAmn]

When you read your post back and realise you said shit but self-censored fuck... I dunno man. I dunno.

[KidAmn]

IT doesn't really surprise me you are not in favor of this....

Yeah, I get it, you see all and know all, it's terribly amusing the first dozen or so times and all.

[KidAmn]

I have also decided that cassielle is town and i wont be reading any of her posts because they make literally zero sense.

I suspect cass and still think this post is scummy.

You have ignored repeated questions by me to you...I have seen no case by you on me...and you have a tendency to ad-hom players and/or disparage their ability.

OoO wagon would work as well.

I seriously believe we should murder fitz, or possibly Kop. Maybe hawk is the third scum but idk. I am not too confident on that.

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

You have ignored repeated questions by me to you...I have seen no case by you on me...and you have a tendency to ad-hom players and/or disparage their ability.

OoO wagon would work as well.

2) This is a misrep...I do not believe I have laid out why I suspect you. And if I inferred reasons somewhere

they certainly did not include suspecting you because you're a dick

. That's NAI. You say I list that as a reason for you being mafia....

show me where I say that. You are LYING once again.

havingfitz seemed bad, but I'm not certain he's scum.

hapahauli I'm somewhat certain, he's pretty under the radar and seems happy with havingfitz' lynch.

Hapa's willingness to skirt around the prod, avoid attracting attention and promise content without delivering any, after coming damn close to the noose D1 with damn good reason, are even more good reasons than they were 3 days ago to put up a wagon there IMO. However, seeing as how Fitz has just been caught in what I'm fairly sure is at least one lie... I'm willing to hear a response, but the most Fitz waffles and the more things like this pop up, the less emphatically I'm against the wagon.

[KidAmn]

What is his lie?

The two posts quoted have, as part of Fitz' list of grievances prior to the statement "Ooo wagon would work as well", accusing Ooo of Ad-hom and disparaging others abilities. I don't think it's a stretch to say that falls under inferring that Ooo is a dick as part of why Fitz wants him lynched.

[KidAmn]

Not voting: hapahauli, havingfitz

You know what? Atleast one of them should've been voting the other.

Inclined to think Fitz is tunnelling on Ooo with his counter-case and hapa just straight up doesn't want to post anything more than a prod-dodge.

[KidAmn]

Considering I'm patiently awaiting an response to what I pointed out (which he must have seen unless he really isn't reading the thread...)

unvote

for now.

[KidAmn]

Hapa's willingness to skirt around the prod, avoid attracting attention and promise content without delivering any, after coming damn close to the noose D1 with damn good reason, are even more good reasons than they were 3 days ago to put up a wagon there IMO. However, seeing as how Fitz has just been caught in what I'm fairly sure is at least one lie... I'm willing to hear a response, but the most Fitz waffles and the more things like this pop up, the less emphatically I'm against the wagon.

@BV: what makes you I'm any less in favour of a Hapa lynch? That crosspost from the completed scumteam makes me even more so.

[KidAmn]

EBWOP: what makes you

think

[KidAmn]

@Hap - Rels voted Hawk a few hours before lylo too.

@KidAmn - It was the second sentence from that post that made me feel like you were warming up to a Fitz lynch. You also started off the day voting outoforder as opposed to Hap who was your most confident scumread from D1. Who would you be voting if you had to pick between Hap and Fitz?

Okay, so hapahauli just replaced into another game. That pretty much confirms that he's scum and his excuses for being busy are a load of bullshit.

Can someone please take Fitz off of L-1 and lynch Hap? We can revisit Fitz tomorrow.

Vote: Hapahauli

Hope that answers your question.

[KidAmn]

Phreeeow. Kop needs to be looked at real close tomorrow for that speedhammer, regardless of flip (FWIW I think that in a setup like this where scum have to be aware of PGO WIFOM games, it's much harder to say "X can't be scum, they fasthammered Y and Y was scum)

[KidAmn]

Phreeeow. Kop needs to be looked at real close tomorrow for that speedhammer, regardless of flip (FWIW I think that in a setup like this where scum have to be aware of PGO WIFOM games, it's much harder to say "X can't be scum, they fasthammered Y and Y was scum)

Didn't look for the vote count when I voted, still thought Fitz had the highest, and you never put L-1. If you had, I wouldn't have voted.

But I can take one for the team tomorrow if you would like to lynch me based on that hammer.

I'd like to think there are degrees of distinction between "look at closely" and "instalynch based on X alone". You make a fair point, I wasn't aware it was L-1 either as VCs have been a little more sporadic than I'm used to elsewhere.

[KidAmn]

idk, this is ooo's only game.

Ooo doesn't get to use that when he's talked as much shit about people as he has in this game and claims as much offsite experience as a mafia-wunderkind as he does.

PEdit - holy AtE Batman

[KidAmn]

^ this is bad posting

V/LA for the next couple of days while my Internet provider botches migrating me to a less shitty provider

[KidAmn]

The fact Fitz never responded to me yesterday, and is now doing what he constantly called Ooo out on the last 2 days (gratuitous shitslinging) is making me reconsider my read pretty strongly. If mobile posting wasn't awful I'd take the time to go through ISOs in depth.

[KidAmn]

Vote Momo

for now because the way everything suddenly went quiet makes me think the remaining scum is happy to let us ML everyone while they go under the radar (plus as i said those 2 posts above and their begging people to sheep them in rub me up even wronged than fitz' recent posts)

[KidAmn]

Momo is replacing into more games while ignoring this one. I'm not even sure what to do at this point with regard to that slot. This is frustrating.

Lynch it.

No longer V/LA.

[KidAmn]

My vote is staying on Momo until they deign to grace us with their presence. Will post thoughts on the last couple of pages when I get off work

[KidAmn]

Ooo case is compelling. Still get the feeling we're being left to argue amongst ourselves. MOMO GET IN HERE.

[KidAmn]

Hello, wassup?

What do y'all wanna ask me.

Your thoughts on the last day and a bit that you've lurked through and a realist based on your own thinking instead of "can someone sheep me in" would be nice. Just something to indicate you're actually engaging the game in the day phases. Soon.

[KidAmn]

Momo has had literally 0 original thoughts this game. At this point PoE says Momo or Fitz, and since I'm not getting Momo

Vote Fitz

It is my understanding this is L-1. Claim.

[KidAmn]

kidamn is also a "maybe" suddenly. it's in the way he asked fitz to claim mostly -- all roles are known and mafia will NEVER claim anything but PGO. fitz outed that he was still able to arm -- could kidamn have been fishing for that? idk, its a weak case but it might end up being worthwhile?

Fair points: it's something of a reflex for me to ask for the claim since you never know when caught scum will make a slip. I certainly wasn't fishing for the availability of the ability, but no way to prove that.

unvote

don't see a world where Fitz' reaction isn't genuine unless he was fully aware as I was that Ooo's vote hadn't been counted. MOMO on the other hand has suddenly leapt to life now that they think they're on the edge of getting the Fitz lynch which gives me sufficient pause.

[KidAmn]

If this wasn't an open setup I would genuinely assume Ooo was a Jester at this point.
Get your shit together.

[KidAmn]

Regardless of alignment, and no matter how good a Mafia player you think you are, Ooo, you are crossing several lines. If it wouldn't be so severely to the detriment of the other players at this point I would replace out right now. As it is, I'll settle for making damn sure I never play another game of Mafia with you, whether or not you stay here.

[KidAmn]

I feel like at this point we're getting bogged down in a lot of self-pity and "oh, woe is me for I must take one for the town so that thine eyes might see clearly" BS.

[KidAmn]

VOTE: havingfitz

This shit right here? This is the only thing really worrying me and making me wonder if this is going to be as simple as Fitz v. Ooo.

[KidAmn]

I'm purely withholding my vote at the moment because the entire town seems to be unsure of anything other than the fact Momo is a troll, which is completely NAI. Everyone who was involved in the best scumhunting has dropped off and suddenly doesn't care enough or is putting themselves up for 1v1s and dumb shit, and that needs to get fixed so that in the eventuality we are wrong today, we're not stuck in woe-is-me pile of BS.

[KidAmn]

prefer momo to fitz/rels tbh
ooo is possible still but momo is acting like caught scum -- yeah trolling is nai but theres a certain willingness to do what the hell ever, etc. from that slot. in a scum!momo world, its not trolling -- its just that momo is in an information vacuum (all other scum are dead) and is acting out to get some feedback

kidamn, in my position where youre trying your best to contribute and its not good enough, and town has lynched right every time with only one scum left, would you or would you not be willing to get lynched so that town could stop getting distracted by your slot?

Only if I was completely, 100% sure that 100% conf-town would nail the last scum the next day, with no wiggle room. So outside of that incredibly unlikely scenario, no, I'd keep fighting.

[KidAmn]

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.

Why aren't you asking me about it?

VOTE: outoforder

Because i don't feel like i need to ask you about it. From what i remember playing with you you will make your alignment clear to me before D1 ends even if i didn't prod you in any way. There is also a Rels-specific reason i am not willing to discuss yet.

But while you're at it, care to elaborate on this; This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.

So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.

It's hardly anything at this stage of the game and it can easily be explained as "teehee RVS shenanigans" but... I mean, it's there? And Ooo reacted to it so oddly with the whole "I'll know your alignment by the end of D1 anyway" thing, only to spend the first few pages scumreading Hapa and then backing off.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: KidAmn

Yeah no. You do not get to call the early situation a "clusterfuck" and then throw fuel on the fire.

And you don't get to vote for me and then not explain it at all. ^^

Weird little doubleteam here.

VOTE: havingfitz

I agree with Aubrey. Fitz's play feels a lot like what I've done as mafia in the past. He's asking a bunch of safe and pointless questions that aren't really productive one way or the other.

Hey, isn't this what part of Ooo's case on Fitz was later in the game, along with the failure to answer Ooo's own questions?

no. not mafia. blame me if i am wrong but not mafia in this game.

Aubrey's mindset seems totally different as mafia than here. Also he jumps on same sort of things he isn't jumping on here. Granted, i haven't seen a town game of his so point me out to one and i will rejudge.

"Definitely not Mafia. I don't have any town games to compare with, but definitely not Mafia." - this seems like a really odd leap to make, and contradictory to the whole "trying to meta is a newb-town tell" thing BV mentioned. Ooo gives the appearance of trying to meta, but only claims to read one side of Aubrey's game (in less than 7 minutes, impressive!) and be able to say "not mafia" with very little reasoning given.

Buuuuut then we have Hawk's first contribution to the game

VOTE: Creature

It's kind of ironic that I'm telling OOO to vote while forgetting to vote for anyone myself.

VOTE: Frederick E Campbell

who seems to be lurking at the moment.

Sorry, I'm putting less attention into this game rn.

You wrote on your wiki that that's a scumtell for you.

VOTE: Creature

Oh hi SlySly

Huh?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... to_Read_Me

Read the last sentence of paragraph 3.

You could say that just as easily as scum.

UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: Frederick

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

I'm not convinced you're town, and I haven't read Rels yet. I'll help discuss, but I reserve the right to vote whoever I please.

I wish you people not voting would vote. I don't care if your the type of person who doesn't like to vote until you feel reaaal good about someone before voting them. Put your vote on the scummiest person so far already.

I'll consider what you've said.

But honestly, I think Aubrey's 222 seems a little to eager to end this day.
VOTE: Aubrey

Let's try to work as town anyways.

Do you mean you're scum, and you're trying to work as though you're town?

Wow.

In this post from a scum thread, Fredrick states that he as scum usually picks someone at random to question. Does this questioning fit that method? Could this be sloppy town, or is it more likely lazy scum?

Yeah, to some extent. This is only Fredrick's fourth game, and he doesn't appear to post much.

VOTE: hapahauli

Not really scummy. More less not-scummy.

Hang on, I think I've got a case.

VOTE: Kop

His posting tone seems bored and rather uncaring, which clashes strongly with his activity and content. I think he's scum trying to look town.

[boop]

VOTE: Fredrick

because I think he's lazy scum.

Uggggghhhh so yeah I thought that's what I saw. Doom really pings me because while he's been fairly active and has had good posts here and there a lot of it is pretty easy to fake as scum.

Doom flips his vote a lot with little actual say from himself on why or where or how. Particularly I find his vote against FEC just recently bothersome. You vote him for low content then give him benefit of being a newbie and not posting much then vote him again cause he's lazy scum? Naaaah dog lots of other people also fall under the low activity scummy feel than just FEC. Not that you don't point it out just you chose to focus here. Feels like low hanging fruit. He could be scum, but idk. posts are rather sporadic and feel very awkward like his interaction with creature early in the day, his questioning of the unvote just to post hey you said why two posts later so I get where some of the question of FEC comes from but I don't see why Doom votes Hapa for being not town enough, then Kop for case based off tone and activity (both of which are NAI) and back to Fred where you were before because he's lazy (despite you saying before) that he was new and doesn't post much from what you've dug out.

Which makes a lot of noise about Doom with not a ton of actual substance - his vote is "bothersome" and there are more people than FEC who are "low activity scummy", but somehow out of them all FEC is low-hanging fruit (bear in mind this is after FEC's little burst of 4 posts on D1 that looked like literal trash and even I was calling FEC out at that point...). The case also low-key chainsaws Hapa, which could be indicative of 2 scum bussing on their newbie partner?

Basically - if you go read MooginSoosy's posts, she gave townreads on me, Rels and Creature.
When being prodded about the townreads she retracted from all of them except for the townread on me. I don't understand why he townread Rels and Creature in the first place, since there is no real explanation. Basically the read on Rels she has shouldn't have been a townread in the first place since almost everything Rels has posted is why she retracted from the read... I don't understand the read - or the change of read - on Creature at all. I don't see the thoguht process. I don't understand the read on me either since she literally said she has a townread on me for a post she doesn't know why i even posted that?!?!?!? I mean like, wtf does that even mean or how can she come to a such conclusion. And i certainly don't like her vote on doomfeathers since i heavily disagree with the case.

The first post I made after coming back was from skimming what had happened, then I went back and changed my mind. I should've read before posting but I didn't, my bad.

I think you're town but I hated that wall post because you just say the same thing in different ways for half of it and it wasn't concise. Also you just seemed like you were making this huge revelation but it wasn't actually that life changing.

Creature is a mystery to me because the posts are so short. I thought he was town before but I think I was swayed by his whole "oh we should form a townblock with us 4 (rels doom OoO creature)"

I think one of the people in that group is scum and right now the only one who I think is definitely town in that is you

Be more concise OoO, but not as concise as Creature cause I can't read that.

Please expand your reads. What about creatures posts are scrummy? Same with Rels and Doom if you please.

If I didn't know better I'd say this was Hawk coaching Ooo into the game.

Kinda skimming through the next few pages as Hawk goes from "I'll let Hapa get back then jump on his wagon" to "I'll support Hapa's wagon the minute I get back and forget I was SRing him"... man, how did that take so long to spot.

Uggghhhh fuck it.

I'm really losing interest in this game because I'm having a hard time not being drawn to my natural tendency to question low activity which in turn usually leads me to looking hypocritical. I told myself I'd try and be less emotional and gut based and try and find scum smartly this time not over activity based NAI Garbo but I'm slowly losing interest.

Kop is coasting and hasn't placed a vote outside of RVS. It feels really off to me especially with all his rebuttals being dismissive and not pushing towards scumhunting himself. This compounded with the fact that his one actual push back against Doom earlier didn't follow up with a vote anywhere really irks me.

KidDamn is in a similar boat for me he's coasting by along with weak cases based off twisted information and hypocrisy.

Creature bugs me because he's been really laid back and almost uninvolved in this game. I read his wiki and apparently this is pair for the course for him. Seems fine I guess if I didn't think meta can easily be manipulated honestly it's what scares me most of all about creature since his "meta" is so indifferent his ability to manipulate is going to be easy to fool. He retorted eariler that he can't fake his "expression". If I'm taking expression to mean reaction on the similar vein that reactions are instantaneous and quick. This is forum Mafia. Anything on an emotional level can be faked by scum if they take the time to do so. Creatures meta being so disinterested d1 makes it easy for him to manipulate and move past that d1 phase by faking his expressions.

Hapa hasn't wowed me with his rebuttals as of late mostly because it continues to be no one has reason to scumlean me and less following up and pressuring his scumreads aka KidDamn and idk who else because idk if he leaned anyone else besides fitz.

Rels and OoO are off playing Mafia on TL forums and responding with meta alignments and indications I wanna vomit at how much all of their case against Hapa initially was noise and I couldn't dig into it myself. (I won't reread previous games to a great length to try and disecting scum and townie behavior as it often can just be a waste of time and I don't really have enough IRL to reread 3+ games per player to dig into their meta, if I know you from a previous game I may already be predisposed by memory but I try and ignore that because human memory is a faulty thing)

Cassiele replaces into a slot with such low quality of play and lack of posts that honestly I want to forget FEC even said anything earlier. I actually took a second since Doom seemed so confident and linked a game of his about how his scum play is garbage and read it. I skimmed I saw he is 14 years old or claims to be and from a quick look has no idea how to play this game and is reeks of newbie so I won't try to evaluate any play of his when he's replacing out due to stress.

Aubrey against my better judgement looks differently from the last game I played with him but his scum game was very good and I heavily townread him early that game as well and I rearly don't want to have a repeat of falling into traps set before. Plus meta is NAI so fuck my head for having a hard time disconnecting last game from this game. Also in response to what Aubrey said about activity. Yeah town self imploded in Tit for Tat 664. One of the reasons I've been very laid back this game is because my play was super sloppy in that game and eventually it led to my mislynch but I'm starting to feel that same apathy I felt D1 and d2 of that game and can't sit back anymore.

Rant over.

I'll respond about more people when I can. I am at work and was trying to read and catch up but don't have time to fully flesh out my thoughts right now so I'll stop here.

Bolded part is interesting. Tying Ooo to Rels as if they're acting as a pair. It almost feels like Hawk wants these to players to be linked together... which would be useful if say, the last scum is in there with a townie, and between them scum were to link the pairing together tightly enough.

Holy shit, Ooo goes missing for a long long time while the D1 wagon on Hapa is hapa-ning.

Right now Kop, Kid, Moogin and Rels are all pinging me as possible scum but not all together. And Rels is more associative than actually there.

So Hawk goes to the trouble earlier of linking Rels/Ooo as a partnership, and then makes sure Rels is on his scumlist, but only weakly. Hm.

I am up to p27. Unfortunately the finnish wifi in trains is shit and i hought i would have a bit time yesterday despite hoing to visit friends outside my home country.

I am gonna finish catching up tonight and then gollow up on haps and i also got some questions for cassielle.

For now UNVOTE: hapahauli

And quietly, Ooo hops off the Hapa wagon D1. Ooo spends the rest of the day promising/saying they need to re-read Hapa, then returns to tunnelling the shit out of Fitz' asshole.

I'm here ready to flip onto Hapa whenever. I just want Rels and OoO's catchup.

OoO we have less time than you think we only have a day and a few hours left right?

No worries. It can be frustrating when people talk past each other which is what this conversation felt like. Just catch up and lay out your thoughts in detail. I think that'll help me a lot more in seeing where you are coming from.

I have caught up and i want to lynch fitz for the rrasons i have stated.

Fuck i am so waffling on hapa... i really honestly have no clue about his alignment atm. If rels was not a dickhead and didnt tell me to go read the last game hapa played i would think he is magia but... ugh... i am not going to oppose the lynch (until or if hapa gives me a reason to) if thats what you wanna do.

Idk who else is scum, unfortunately. Thankfully i dont have to know rn.

One scum ready to commit to the Hapa wagon (although amusingly it ends up going the other way), one 'waffling' and sticking to their precious tunnel on Fitz. Until...

I seriously believe we should murder fitz, or possibly Kop. Maybe hawk is the third scum but idk. I am not too confident on that.

Can you guys please go read fitz' filter and tell me how any of his reasoning for scumreads ever makes anyone mafia?

Suddenly, Ooo has been swayed and is weak SRing Hawk out of nowhere. Funny that. Hapa is on the middle of the Hawk wagon, Ooo is the hammer. Scum has daytalk. Do I need to spell this out? Hawk is around for the hammer, posts shortly after...

D2 - Remember way up there at the top of this case where I mentioned Hawk tying Ooo/Rels together earlier on?

You, BV, Cass and momo town. Am I missing someone?

I kinda think Kop is town too because after Aubrey wagon got derailed i believe scum were trying to lynch Kop. That has to be the case unless we assume scum are playing like complete idiots and didn't even try to get anyone lynched. I also believe there is never more than 1 mafia in the Hawk wagon, so at least one of Hapa and Rels has to be town. For your townreads i do agree.

Basically i am left with:

havingfitz
KidAmn
(Hapa/Rels)

Rels had some posts that i found out possibly coming from scum!Rels. Hapa wagon was gladly accepted by almost all of the players, so idk.. that probably makes him town? I have to look back and see who actually weren't willing to lynch Hapa and if that could mean something. KidAmn fits as scum though, since while imo he was one of the "easy lynches" for scum to try push on (if town), he wasn't really being pushed while making some posts i found super irrational.

Idk if Rels would vote for Hawk like that as mafia so i am puzzled about that too. I'd have to check back some older games and how Rels has played as mafia when i get a chance to. The fact however is that Rels is usually a player who tries to drive the thread as scum, and there are a LOOOOT of "good" cases to be made (from scum perspective) on D1. I am not quite sure why he didn't take the chance assuming he is scum as he for sure had plenty of those chances.

Ooo has a scumread on Rels suddenly, and a townread on hapa after pushing him a bunch at the start of D1. Weird inversion, and one that lines up neatly with the Ooo/Rels partnership that was mentioned a lot D1 and emphasised by Hawk.

Rels is probably mafia tbh.

Reading further i'd like to correct myself, i am sure Rels is mafia.

Let's play a fun game called "how long does it take Ooo to post a substantive case on Rels". Place your bets, folks!

I mean like posts #1232 and #1247 super easily always made Hawk mafia.
First he is happy you are trying to push the conversation forwards, when he ends up on you you are super terrible player just like the scum!Aubrey (as he "believed" Aubrey is mafia) said just a couple of moments before....

If Hapa is scum here why does Hawk say this though (in #1232):

OoO, BV, and Rels all still kinda townread Hapa and are posturing around the lynch. Of not OoO refuses to vote Aubrey but doesn't seem with happy with Hapa's lynch either... which is a really weird place to be 10 hours before deadline...

Anyone who has read my posts before this has to know i am never going to vote for Aubrey here. What's the point of "triggering me" (because if Hapa is scum and i take the bait i will 100% vote for Hapa out of those 2) here?

"Hawk was always mafia" - player who literally never went near the Hawk lynch until it was hammer time.

VOTE: Hawk

If we're not voting Aubrey, I'm fine with this. I don't remember anything he's posted, which according to my self-meta, probably means he's mafia.

Like this is a super suicidal post at the point it came out if Hapa is mafia. There is still Aubrey wagon, there are people discrediting you BV for "changing your mind so many times", not all of those people can even be mafia. Why does he just do this instead of doing ANYTHING else (he has already had his vote on BOTH Aubrey and Kop)?

Explaining why Hapa can't be scum because of when/how he hopped on the Hawk wagon. Still waiting for that Rels case, BTW.

Is it normal for town-Hap to sheep?

idk to be honest.

But waaaaait a minute, this is the Ooo who in #26 claimed he would know Hapa's alignment before the end of D1! Gosh, that's confusing, how can he claim to know Hapa this well, but not know if town-Hapa sheeps? Gee folks, can you guess? (Rels case? Rels case? Anyone seen a Rels case? Nope.)

I agree Hapa looks the worst in the game right now. It feels superficial.
The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.
Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.
Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.
I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

I mean this post in itself is so fucking scummy it hurts

I just... I just wanna put this in a frame and leave it there. Look at it.

401 looked like he was already planning for Hap to come back to the thread and look town

Yes! That is what caught my eye too when i took time to read his filter today. I agree i am terrible at reading Rels early on when he just agrees with me and doesn't do any retarded shit he sometimes does (mainly calls me out for some easily detectable bullshit reason). I jsut tend to ignore his posting and say he is town until he does something really townie (or not - like here, and i will go reread him).

Just look at this:

The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.

this is never something hapa said. this is rels' interpretation of what hapa said. i know i agreed with rels on this at the time, the difference is i was trying to figure out hapa's motives, rels never did any of that, just called him scum for it.

Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.

So what Rels basically says here cancels this argument totally. "Hapa is scum for attacking KidAmn for weak reasons and when he realizes they are weak reasons he is scum for that too." That's literally what happened if you think from a town!hapa point of view. There is no way to tell if hapa is scum making shit up or if he just blundered in the first place. But the fact is BOTH of these things in Rels' opinion make hapa mafia...

Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.

"Hapa is voting for havingfitz which i don't have a problem with but he is scum for it because easy target. I myself scumread people who are easy targets like KidAmn, Kop and FEC (a bit later on)." Rels should know better, he should know that being an easy target doesn't make anyone town, and suspecting someone who is "lurking" or an "easy target" doesn't make the person scum. It is an invented narrative to call someone scum based on something that doesn't make people scum.

I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

"I am not seeing obvious town hapa here and i didn't read him town at this point in the last game either" so... idk even know what to say here...

Cause your filter, ISO, whatever you're calling that here, is awful.
The "I don't like this guy but I won't explain why 'cause it's just an impression but actually it wasn't very serious". Weird way to start the game.
The "LOOK IM PARTICIPATING" comment that you're making on the setup / way to play. While you don't have posts that matter yet. It looks like scum trying to appear being active. "RVS shouldn't be stopped!" "We shoudln't all arm the same night!"
Then the rest of your posts are useless but I don't care about that, townies can make useless posts. I really don't like these two points though

I find scum knowing where town is.

TBF you also look pretty bad there: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=27374
LOL this makes me think of your "MM WE SHOULD NOT ALL ARM THE SAME NIGHT" post though:

Funny, because as scum I try to look active but I end up lurking. As town it's like the opposite.

How the fuck can I find a scumgame of yours easily. This forum is hard to use

Creature had lots of shit posts in his town games too, especially early.

Caught up.
Hapa is scum.
Kop is most likely scum.
Aubrey rayn and hawk are townie.
Creature and doom are super town.
So most importantly Hapa is scum. Let's murder him.

Creature seems super town because he's posting all the time. When he's being townread by people with influence in the thread. He doesn't like being play, source : his wiki and his scum games. Here we have a mix of some I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity.
MAYBE he's tryharding. We'll see if he drops off. But he seems super town.

Now see this read progression:
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts
-> *goes reading his games*
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts as town too
->

MAGICALLY THOSE SHITPOSTS ARE NOT ANYMORE SHITPOSTS, NOW THEY ARE "I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity".

nononono Rels, you're scum here.

We finally got there folks, A CASE ON RELS pleaseignorethatit'smostlyfullofshitandattacksalogicalreadprogressionasscummy

Another fact is that Rels ignores me and my stuff basically ONLY when i am accusing his scumbuddy. I also know this doesn't apply here unless havingfitz is mafia, so there you go.

Rels is also scum because Fitz is scum, and Ooo has been tunnelling Fitz. So uh... ta-da?

Speaking of tunnelling Fitz - straight back to it after a lengthy diatribe with Rels that goes nowhere amid a lack of support:

Anyways i am gonna take a shower and then i am gonna gather up all the questions fitz has asked me this game and quote my answers from my filter and then i am gonna call him a liar scum again.

Shockingly, I'm actually going to agree with Rels and ask you for an explanation here Cass. You're making it sound like you want Rels and I to keep dancing for your amusement here and I'd rather not continue until I know the tune.

Just let it go for now, when the elaboration comes we can figure out if it makes sense or not.
If it's her "wanting Rels and you to keep dancing for her amusement" it's gonna show.

Wait a minute, didn't you SR Rels just a few pages ago? Wouldn't you want to hear what Cass has to say here regarding ostensibly your 2nd highest SR at this point?

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since

he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

oh my...
i so do this when i am mafia. i so do just the same because i am an arrogant prick. ^_^

Looking back, this post looks really... really... REALLY weird to make as Town-Ooo.

Actually my outoforder townread lessened a bit. If Hap flips scum, I want to look more closely there. His D1 was incredibly town but his arguments for Hap being town today have been a stretch. Who is your best guess for the third scum?

Mine? Idk. Rels or KidAmn.

I am going to now tell you something. There is absolutely no way there is 2 mafia in me/Hapa and Rels. You can choose to not believe me but that is 100% going to be the truth this game. I know i am not mafia and there is literally no way either of me and Rels would have treated Hapa early on in the game like we did in case he was mafia. Maybe you are right and Hapa is mafia, i just don't believe it.

If you're going to lynch him based on an association with Hawk (and me) then i might just aswell stop posting, because there is probably not a way to change your mind. I've said everything i have to say about that. I just don't believe you're right here on his alignment.

At least i am going to vote for mafia.
VOTE: havingfitz

Trust And Believe. This Thing Cannot Be Because I Say So, And If You Disagree I Will Throw My Toys Out Of The Pram.

And i really don't care about the third scum right now because when we lynch havingfitz we can lynch both of the people who can possibly be mafia.

"If it's not Fitz, it has to be these two" - boy, does this ever smell like someone setting up their next mislynches.

Also remember there is never going to be more than 1 mafia in the Hawk wagon.
Never ever never.

In light of the Hapa flip, this is really interesting. Setting up insurance for yourself here, Ooo?

I just offered myself being lynched over a townie so Rels can what??? "get towncredit"? (when me - Rels interaction caused the whole thing in the first place). I am sorry, smart mafia teams do not do that. Especially when it would leave 1 mafia alive which has a chance of instantly losing the game if you shoot the wrong person.. They just simply agree to lynch the townie.

"Mafia would never do X. I am doing X, so I must not be Mafia" - aka one of the most flawed arguments I've seen all game.

Ooo then stays off the Hapa lynch, and his first posts of the day are:

Dat retarded night kill though.

Idk, doom looked really level-headed and not scummy at all.
It's going to be fitz. There are no reasons to townread him, ever, in this game. I am gonna call you all bad if it's fitz. I accept being called bad if it's not.

I just dont see anyone else being mafia, espectially after that dumbass NK.

First it's a dumbass NK, then it's

It's probably momo not paying attention at all.

Not really. If it's fitz he just needs me + momo lynches and suddenly he is in lylo with Cassielle and KidAmn. BlackVoid hard townreads him for some weird reasons, same does Cassielle. That's an endgame i would take as mafia, probably his best shot. Maybe he thought people have wifomed and didn't arm up on N1 (for the record i was a little sad when i saw Aubrey flip without a mafia flip since it's always correct play for EVERY townie to arm up on N1 and not wifom it in case there is a mafia lynch - apparently people didn't really think about these setup stuffz.. You gain a mislynch regardless of if mafia shoots someone or doesn't on N1).

Suddenly a really slick plan on Fitz' part. Weird, that.

I am still going to say that whoever of BV/Rels/Creature is alive at lylo should be auto-lynched because they are good enough to solve the game and they will have (after D2) 4 weeks to solve this game with at least 2 of them being alive. If they cannot do that and end up on retarded reads like this, they should be lynched. Always. Even if Fitz is alive at lylo i would lynch onto whoever of those three is alive because they deserve to lose the game whatever alignment they are at that point.

Setting up more lynches, with the time-honoured classic "it doesn't matter what alignment they are, they DESERVE the lynch".

This ^ vote is scummy as sh*t. If you are town, you do not vote out of anger on D3. Calm yourself down and focus on the game.

It's not though. I did the same thing earlier.

"It's not scummy, I did it earlier."

tl;dr

Vote: Outoforder

Let's fucking end this already.

[KidAmn]

I think there's enough of a mix of pseudo-push (see the RVS back and forth) and alignment such as

@ Fitz

And we get to the gist of me pining Aubrey. "trying to ask questions that don't exactly amount to much." This is the expansion of me "pinging" you. So my 6 posts in the first 2 pages of D1 are suspect because I am asking questions. WTF? Wait...asking questions surely isn't bad....it's that they don't amount to much (your opinion btw). Let's ISO/analyze those 6 posts.

19 - RVS on OoO (with a gameplay assist). No question.
24 - Asking Creature about his scum impression on Aubrey. HTF is that a bad question?
30 - Still engaged with Creature. A courtesy question to OoO followed by a question to understand his early hana suspicions...are they based on MS or a different site. And this is bad because?
34 - Banter with Doom and a thank to Creature for giving an actual response.
43 - Trying to figure out wth Creature is talking about when he says "there are many players being boring there". I thought he might have been referring to a different mafia site (ala TLM) and therefore possibly a 4th member of the TLM bunch.
51 - This is essentially a passive aggressive dig on my part at Doom to say he doesn't need anyone's approval to ask anything. This on the heels of a game we just played where I thought he put too much credence into the opinions of other players.

So there are my D1 first two page pre Aubrey pinging posts. Please let me know which questions you have issue with.

It's not any particular questions I have issues with. Asking questions isn't bad. Asking questions that don't accomplish much is scummy. Perhaps how valuable questions are is subjective, but multiple people have taken issue with it so far.

Also, there's an irony on calling OoO's post a hard to read wall of text, yet making one yourself that's arguably harder to read. For example, I have to read that whole post really carefully to arrive at any of your conclusions and reads. Care to comment?

and the weird case on Fitz with the hedging from D1

Fitz

still is probably my second strongest read. I did not like his "wall-o-text" catchup post in the least bit. It's like he made it intentionally super hard to read, while criticizing OoO's wall for being hard-to-read.

Though two things give me pause (and have me wanting KidAmn dead first):
1) Multiple people have been complaining about OoO's post-length, which makes it possible that being anti-wall-of-text is some standard mafiascum meta thing.
2) I've seen townies do the "post while catching up wall-of-text" before, and they always read as very awkward/scummy to me.

I think there's a chance that Fitz is just a really awkward poster. Not a large chance, but certainly more of a chance than KidAmn.

that aligns with Ooo for it to be the case. After Cass replaces in he references the case Ooo/Rels made on him before backing off D1, but goes after Cass when she runs with it. Most of the references to Ooo are relying on offsite meta, such as

So naturally, I'm super fucking hypersensitive to this, because no matter what I choose, I am read as mafia, and no one takes my cases seriously.

And if you're wondering if you should take me seriously, ask Rels or OoO about my success rate in lynching mafia D1.

and prompting Ooo on his Fitz case

@OoO

What do you consider particularly damning about Fitz's read progression? You should know that stuff making sense =/= mafia.

I'd rather be lynching into Kop, mostly because there's hypocrisy and contradiction in his filter, combined with his play looking like he's laying low through the important thread events.

that I'm confident in it. Hawk was a lot more belligerent towards Ooo D1

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

And the sudden change in the Hapa/Ooo interaction post-Hawk flip feels like distancing, although that's as much about Hapa trying to lurk his way through the day as anything - although the posts I referenced above about Ooo going from "I'll know Hapa's alignment by EOD1" to "IDK if he sheeps lol" illustrate this sudden shift as much as anything.

[KidAmn]

Welcome Ooo to my blacklist. You're not half the mafia player you think you are, especially if you resort to aggression and insults when you didnt get your own way. Fitz was undoubtedly the next lynch anyway, but the reason you ate it first is simply because unlike you (apart from when he baited you into it further) Fitz played the game better while you failed around calling everyone retards.

[KidAmn]

>mislynches someone
>GET IN MY BLACKLIST U PLAYED BAD NERD

Uh. You do realise Ooo spent most of this game calling every single player an idiot at best or a retard at worst? That's the reason for the blacklist.

[KidAmn]

And this guy, KidAmn, claims that "it was always Fitz who we lynch after you" when his fucking case was 80% of "you called Fitz scum so you are mafia".
HA FUCKING HA.

why do people lie as town? after the game has ended?

PoE had it as you vs. Fitz (and if PoE didn't end the game for whatever reason we were likely fucked) and I had a more compelling case IMO on you, plus the way you flailed around vs. Fitz being relatively rational slanted it against you (and my case wasn't anywhere near "you called Fitz scum so you are mafia", but you did say you didn't read it so v0v). But I'm not sure why I'm continuing to post here, given that you clearly come from... a very different style of playing Mafia. Thanks for a largely enjoyable game, Tenshii and all.