[Game Over] Open 673 - Tit for Tat

[ECMitchell]

Hi Everyone,

Jumping straight into it:

VOTE: Sesq

Is this for utterly demolishing that article you linked? lol

Anyway, RANDOM.ORG COMPELLS ME...

VOTE: Charloux

I find it interesting you felt the need to highlight your first vote during the RVS as, indeed, random.

Why do you feel the need to underline the fact of random voting?

I liked seeing The_Jester call this out as well.

Also Charloux, I swear I won't be bad at the video game this time.

-Ali

I'm not mad at you! I just pretended to be so i could get some info from you!

VOTE: Sesq

Anyway, RANDOM.ORG COMPELLS ME...
VOTE: Charloux

I used that as well, but since i was first on the list, i decided to vote for someone else.

If I'm pointing out Sesq's instance, I must point out Charloux's as well.

Neither case is particularly a scum read; both are certainly jovial. Just something to notice.

Alright everyone, I'll generate some discussion by asking a few random and easy questions to various players. Maybe we'll be able to gleam some info from how they word their answers.

Cooperative Sheep: How well can we trust you to tell the truth?

Bellaphant: Do you prefer playing as mafia or town?

Transcend: Are you a mafia goon?

Sesq: Are you a member of the Illuminati?

projectmatt: Do you tend to be on the winning team or the losing team?

Siblings Quarrel: What's the square root of 1,867?

theplague42: What's your usual Day One strategy to sniff out scum?

I can always appreciate an effort to get the game rolling. How did you select which players to give questions to? Why weren't I and others included?

Thank you. This is my first game on mafiascum, but I'm not exactly a stranger to mafia. It's been several years since I've played a game, though. So there's a little introduction from me, so that I'm not just asking the questions.

Would it be unfair if I read this as,

"I'm not just idly asking questions here. I want you all to know I'm actively contributing too?"

VOTE: Intermission

VOTE: Intermission

Good luck, and have fun.

[ECMitchell]

I liked seeing The_Jester call this out as well.

I don't like you OR jester calling it out.

It's something so easy and opportunistic to call out

-Frog

"Something so easy and opportunistic to call out?" Of course it is. We're in the random voting stage. I appreciate everyone and anyone who points out the obvious to get the ball rolling. At the very least it prompts thoughts and reactions such as mine and, just as importantly, yours.

@ECMitchell No rhyme or reason behind who got questions, or what question they got. As for your other question, I think that's a pretty fair statement actually. I figured someone would pose a question back at me, so I wanted to show I'm perfectly willing to have two-way discourse and that I'm not exempt from scrutiny.

Thanks for clarifying. May I also have a question?

This progression is gross.

"interesting you random rvs'd"

"great job by jester calling it out"

"but actually this is jus something to notice and possibly jovial and not necessarily scum"

WTF

Fixed

-Frog

You successfully relayed the play-by-play of what happened, but I'm still confused on your confoundment. And I wonder, based on your quote, whether you've followed what I found interesting. It's not "interesting [he] random rsv'd," it's interesting to me he wanted to demonstrate why it's random—or more accurately to his recent clarification, how. Nowhere have I said he is scum for it, nor anyone else. Nor am I convicted it means anything at all.

because he voted obvscum and the entrance on that vote doesn't look like a bus

So I agree him voting intermission is voting scum.

But the way he approached it seemed weird.

He complimented intermission for the RQS questions, then voted him anyway.

like no conviction behind it

-Frog

No conviction whatsoever. No rhyme or reason, either, I'm afraid.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Intermission

Just a bunch of nonsense is just fine for now.

[ECMitchell]

pedit: err you were voting intermission?

Nonsense, right? Hope

somebody

laughs.

[ECMitchell]

UNVOTE:

Taking some pressure off. In general I think I liked Intermission's reactions. Heading out to work for most of the day. I'll come back and share what more thoughts I can.

Cooperative Sheep, is there anything in particular about Siblings Quarrel and The_Jester that strike you as town reads?

[ECMitchell]

I'm hesitant to sheep your vote on Sheep, since in the only two games I've been able to observe you in, you've adamantly led a lynch on them. I'm starting to wonder if you two are just on completely different wavelengths and naturally clash with each other. For what it's worth, right now I'm not getting much of a scum read on Cooperative Sheep. As far as any thoughts on you go—I'm still trying to come to grips with the concept of a hydra account. To be honest I think that's a very obnoxious feature and I think I'll avoid games with them in the future. Messes up my reads when I'm dealing with a dual personality. Although there was one post in particular where I thought you might be scum:

Was going to ask the same thing as Jester.

And I think Jester is probably town. He kept saying that intermission isn't the droid we're looking for, but is now changing his mind and questioning intermission on something I picked up on too.

I even pointed out intermissions LAMIST statements and concern for his image to Ali in our hydra PT.

That jester is rethinking things and pressuring someone he originally thought was a bad spot for pressure, certainly comes from someone trying to figure the game out.

The bold statement in particular comes off as you trying to establish the fact that you're actively scum hunting "behind the scenes"—and of course, why would you do that if you were scum? If you're a hydra account, it probably goes without saying that you're collaborating, right?

Responding to some general comments I've read catching up: If it wasn't obvious, my vote on Intermission was of course to just apply pressure. As mentioned when I unvoted, I do generally like his reactions, and it remained consistent even after The_Jester challenged his concern to

appear

town.

I approach games like a new social situation; start out civil and gradually become more comfortable.

Then the fun starts.

It's 3 pages in. God damn, I give a readslist day 3 and I get scumread, I wait for a while and get scumread.

Also:



Pronouns. Read them.

Now onto people reading, which is as such:

Cooperative Sheep: Push on me for not doing anything, which is weird considering as it was only page four and continues to vote for me. Can't read this woman.

Charloux: Seems to be legitimately interacting in the game. I like what I'm hearing, though the stingy votes is minorly off-putting.

Intermission: Looks town on the surface, I guess, but I have a minor gut feel he might be scum. I don't know.

ECMitchell: Weird logic as pointed out by SQ, don't know what to say.

Transcend: Shooting out early reads, not justifying them, but at this point it doesn't look like there's ulterior motives, so no issues.

If they aren't listed I have nothing useful to say about them.

PEDIT: Votes are votes, usually works the same as legit votes

I particularly liked this post, especially the bold, which came off as a comfortable and natural reaction to me.

VOTE: Sesq

Serious vote

Seeing as this vote came immediately after Sesq's Post 106, there must have been something in that post that signaled you. Care to share what that is?

Later tonight I will be going through some players' ISO and share what more I can. I hoped this game would have started picking up speed by now.

[ECMitchell]

No because it refers to ongoing and ECM should never have said that in the first place.

I suggest this not be talked about anymore before there are force replaces

-Frog

Apologies. Didn't realize, since I've seen others regularly refer to other games and it's what I'm used to. Distinction must be current games versus completed ones, yes?

Frog, since you claim to do it regularly, can you show me an instance of you proclaiming to actively work with your Hydra mate in PT from past games?

Transcend, I find your complete disregard for posts and questions directed at you a bit annoying, to say the least. Are you just in a rush to move forward with a lynch, or just don't really want to breath life into inquiries that might put you on the limelight?

[ECMitchell]

@Transcend: You occasionally go into this state where you vote someone and then don't want to elaborate on it or cooperate with us. What happens actually? Are you a lazy bum or your reads are purely gut and it would be a drag to explain them?

Just noting it's interesting to me that Charloux called Transcend out for the same thing but from the exact opposite angle. The two reasons he suggests for Transcend's unhelpful behavior are (a) he's lazy, or (b) working on gut and there'd be a drag/detriment in explaining. Both reasons offered are arguably "town" behaviors. Unhelpful but still possibly town.

No suggestion of this being a scum read at all?

[ECMitchell]

I think this is the 3rd game i'm playing with him, and i remember him doing this before. Not wanting to elaborate his reads is NAI in his case. Btw being a lazy bum isn't AI, so he can be scum.

At the moment I don't know what your post means because I can't find what NAI and AI stand for.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... reviations
Can you please clarify?

For reference, the point of my post was to note that the two "outs" you gave him for unhelpful play were, at the very worst, null tells, and not necessarily scum tells. In my experience that's something scum teams do to lighten suspicion on each other and simultaneously appear contributory.

Frog, since you claim to do it regularly, can you show me an instance of you proclaiming to actively work with your Hydra mate in PT from past games?

jfc: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7389339

i'm not going to dig through more exmaples, but go look up banana frog or Frog Mollie (Ori in archived mini theme games) or the like and ISO them and ctrl+f " PT" (with the space bar in front of the PT). Froggaphant (bellaphant, who is in this game) I hydra'd with but I never said it there.

I had a hydra with salamance I cant remember the name of but it was ika's large theme that is archived. I think I may have hydra'd with 1 or 2 others.

Thanks. I just needed to see the one instance; that helps me tremendously.

Apologies. Didn't realize, since I've seen others regularly refer to other games and it's what I'm used to. Distinction must be current games versus completed ones, yes?

The rule is don't talk about or refer to ongoing games.

Period.

Thanks and noted. I didn't think my post was violating any rules since it didn't mention the other game, and I was just referring to your play styles. I'll be more careful about that.

I will say...in THIS GAME...Alisae is the head of the hydra that started the read on sheep. If you're not taking Alisae's read on sheep into account, you're doing it wrong

-Frog

Isn't that kind of irrelevant though? As a hydra, in your PT you can collaborate and agree on who to pressure. Presumably, as a hydra your actions will always be in unison too. So if your other half is the one who first

posted

about your lead, it'd be correct to say you agreed with that move anyway, right? (This is largely me still trying to figure out what the point of hydra accounts are and the mechanics behind it. Thanks for bearing with me.)

[ECMitchell]

@Transcend, your ISO is a series of mostly unhelpful posts. It's clear you scum read Intermission. Any comments on Siblings vs. Sheep? Other scum reads? I see who you're viewing as town.

@theplague42, seems your vote was on bellaphant for asking questions and not much else. If I'm understanding correctly, that's also Siblings' reasoning against Cooperative Sheep at the moment: asking questions and not following through. Does Sheep ping you the same way bellaphant does?

@projectmatt, need to see a lot more from you.

[ECMitchell]

I see things are finally moving along. I remember being hesitant to vote Cooperative Sheep, but I need to reread his ISO. Still at work currently, but I will be on that tonight for this game. I'll say now that if Cooperative Sheep is scum, I see plague as a very probable scum mate. His reasoning for a vote on someone else (I forget who now—typing in a rush) matched others' reasons against Cooperative Sheep, but he never commented on it and kept his vote elsewhere. In my experience, scum mates don't pick up on these kinds of patterns from their partners because they're not actively hunting against them, or they

do

pick up on them but intentionally avoid adding scrutiny to their faction.

I won't delay the game—I'll vote tonight—I just want to do a quick reread first. Bear with me please.

[ECMitchell]

Right. Noted.

[ECMitchell]

For what it's worth, I

did

read through Cooperative Sheep's ISO tonight as promised. I understand the wagon on him, but I'm betting he'll flip town. Just a gut feeling.

If he turns scum, I stand by what I said of plague being his mate. Especially after that ridiculous hammer lmao.

[ECMitchell]

So whoever killed plague nice job vigging the guy who put scum out of their misery. Really nice job.

It's intermission and Charloux imo. Any objections?

Unless I'm reading the day start very wrong, the flavor says the vigilante shot Siblings, meaning scum shot plague. (No clue as to why, but hey, works for us.) Transcend's comment here makes me think he wasn't in the know of night actions.

I see the votes coming his way. Let me read his ISO before weighing in. I remember there only being a couple posts of his that bothered me: the scum flip chant leading the wagon on Sheep, and the dead-set confidence he was scum despite a swift hammer with no claim.

[ECMitchell]

The flavor said that scum shot Plague, and then the vig came and killed him. Then the scum killed siblings.

I'm reading the opposite. Killer said he's the vigilante when he shoots SQ. First killer just shoots.

I didn't realize it was L-1 so soon. Forgot we lost two last night.

@ECM, if scum killed plague who would benefit from that? Sesq?

Probably not, since plague's vote on Sesq was during RVS and he didn't have many opinions on him from there. His only serious vote was on Bella, and for the same reasons Cooperative Sheep was lynched. Far-fetched but perhaps scum anticipated him to be vigilante based on his confidence in hammering (who would set themselves as a target like that?), and they wanted to kill him before he was forced to claim, without Cc most likely, then be protected in jail from there?

[ECMitchell]

Kop/ECM I'd appreciate if you weighed on Trans instead of night spec

Who shot who affects my read on Transcend based on his first comment at day start. Reading through his ISO in a vacuum, he seems like a hyper-bored Townie more than anything else. However, I found his handling of CS's hammer at the end just a bit suspect, and I agree with the point that he hasn't had much interaction with CS at all also being interesting.

[ECMitchell]

FYI I'm nowhere near ready to vote for Transcend right now, if that's what you're looking for. I need to at least see his responses, and I want to take a closer look at some of the quieter players anyway. On that note, I'd be curious to know what Bella and Matt think of Transcend in general and, in my opinion, what was a very speedy wagon on him.

[ECMitchell]

Bellaphant, can you explain what you mean by your first sentence? I don't understand.

@Mod

, thanks for the confirmation. In that case, yes, the vigilante was probably on plague and not Siblings Quarrel.

I tend to agree with The_Jester on Intermission's cautiousness being more telling of a new player than scum. At least in this case.

Reading through projectmatt's posts, there are a few that rub me the wrong way:

Come to think of it, Sheep is actually obvscum - is there a benefit to stalling this day out longer? I'm not sure.

This was a very sudden switch in confidence, and the last line especially seems like fake speculation to me.

ok working theory: theplague just hammered on his partner and is expecting towncred for it when it flips scum

sesq is the other for obvious reasons

Slipping this "working theory" in at the end of Day 1 also seemed a bit off, like projectmatt wanted to ensure we were suspect of plague prior to leading into the next day.

wait how many mafia are there actually in this game? i want to also say charlou is scum for ego reasons

I'm super weary of questions with obvious answers in the thread opener, particularly when they ask about the scum team—numbers, roles, mechanics, etc. If the moderator has already provided the answers, and they are still readily-available, this just reads to me as an attempt to say, "Notice how I don't know how many scum mates there are because I'm not among them."

I'm not set on a lynch for today yet, but for now, VOTE: projectmatt.

Sesq's ISO is one I'll need to go through as well. I remember getting town reads on him, but many others seem to disagree for whatever reason. I'll work on that sometime soon. Know that I'm away from home today and may or may not have time to check the game on my phone.

[ECMitchell]

That's my way of saying, "Please slow today down by just a bit." I mainly want projectmatt to see I'm on him and get some more posts from him. If others want to weigh in on him too, by all means go ahead. The speed of Transcend's wagon alarmed me, and I don't want to see others forced to claim without even being the lynch consensus for the day.

Y'all playing speedy mafia.

[ECMitchell]

Transcend's lolhammer suggestion has me thinking a bit.

in what way

because of the general quickness of the wagon it looks kinda scummish

Question for Sesq: Was this suspicion dependent on Cooperative Sheep flipping town? The wagon led to a scum lynch, so the speed of the wagon isn't much of a scum tell in hindsight, but you've still voted Transcend since the start of the new day. I don't see other reasons you shared to be suspicious of Transcend other than this—what still seems scummy about him to you?

The RQS point against Intermission is a bit silly. It certainly got discussion flowing, which is the entire point of either the RVS or RQS—doesn't matter which. I remember liking his set of questions, but after reading others' points, I wanted to see how he reacted to some pressure and voted for him. I've liked his reactions up until now, and this argument between Intermission and Transcend seems town versus town to me.

Which doesn't leave me many options for scum: projectmatt, The_Jester, Sesq, Kop, Bellaphant.

Right now, I'm leaning more toward Sesq and/or projectmatt being scum. Still need to take a closer look at Kop and Bellaphant.

[ECMitchell]

Sesq, Charloux is an uncountered Backup claim.

Charloux, you shouldn't be letting ANYONE dictate your vote when you're the only one in the clear. Let your town reads influence you, sure, but don't just blindly throw your vote to others.

I'm out celebrating Valentine's. As soon as I can I will follow up with some thoughts on Kop and Bellaphant.

[ECMitchell]

Charloux, can you tell me your reads on Sesq, Intermission, and projectmatt? That block is where I'm looking to lynch within today. Sesq has been playing an incredibly passive game, seemingly skimming past and not paying attention to any posts that don't mention her name. She was also inconsistent with her voting logic, although she was able to own up to it and made corrections at least.

Intermission has been playing cautiously and as far as I can tell only has the single scum read against Transcend. I've gotten newbie tells more than anything else, but I do find it odd how he suddenly goes quiet when discussion begins to revolve around him. Intermission, who else is scum with Transcend in your eyes?

I'm now a tad less comfortable voting for projectmatt. I like seeing he still town reads those who apply pressure on him or who make posts he finds generally odd; he's not flip flopping or quick to accuse. That's admittedly sometimes a sign of scum trying to not make enemies, but projectmatt hasn't hidden in the slightest his desire to lynch Sesq.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Sesq

[ECMitchell]

Farewell to Intermission. Hope your family is well.

The_Jester, is that to say you don't believe the reason for his replacement request is non-game related?

[ECMitchell]

Seems to be auto win regardless of the circumstances. I claim VT as well. We have 3 MLs anyway so it's impossible for town to lose here.

I'm up for lynch it seems.
VOTE: ECMitchell

[ECMitchell]

Well that game was impossible in my circumstance lol. Well played to all.