Mini Normal 1874: Camping Trip Mafia (Game Over)

[SensFan]

Awesome, loopdan!
Crap, sickofit.

Vote: Massive

. Sheeping loopdan for tradition's sake.

[SensFan]

TwoFaced is standing out as the scummiest player so far to me. The nonsense fakeclaim isn't suspicious (especially since it's Sickofit), but taking it out of context and acting as though it's the same as a fakeclaim on Page30 is absurd to the point it's disingenuous.

Vote: TwoFace

--

pedit: lol.

[SensFan]

TwoFace, if it helps you rationalize it know that Sickofit isn't necessarily the sharpest pencil in the pencilcase.

[SensFan]

TwoFaced is standing out as the scummiest player so far to me. The nonsense fakeclaim isn't suspicious (especially since it's Sickofit), but taking it out of context and acting as though it's the same as a fakeclaim on Page30 is absurd to the point it's disingenuous.

Vote: TwoFace

--

pedit: lol.

Scummiest? You mean awesome. I've caught scum. Why the fuck is everyone letting him off the hook?

I just played a Newbie game with him where he was Town. Fakeclaiming mason as a joke on Day1 wouldn't crack the Top10 list of dumbest shit in that game.

[SensFan]

You seriously going to tell me that it's playing against his wincondition to make an absurd page1 fakeclaim?

What about me coming into a game and 100% sheeping someone elses vote? What if I rolled a die to decide who I was voting for?

--

pedit: Your job if you are Town is to care. This isn't a logic problem or an economics exercise where we assume everyone acts rationally. You have to try and find out individual people are acting in a way that is different than if they were Town.

[SensFan]

I'll also point out that if we're talking about meta 'Blacklisting someone for playing against their win condition as Town', not much stumps "Decided on a vote based on something in the RVS stage and refused to move it for the rest of the game."

[SensFan]

Yes I'm seriously telling you that I perceive lying as town playing against your win condition.

That's a fine argument to make. You want to say that it's objectively bad play to lie as Town, okay. The goal of the game isn't to lynch bad players, though.

I'll also point out that if we're talking about meta 'Blacklisting someone for playing against their win condition as Town', not much stumps "Decided on a vote based on something in the RVS stage and refused to move it for the rest of the game."

I saw 3 separately scummy acts coming from a player. How many more scummy acts does he need to do to make my scum read more validated?

3 is plenty imo. You disagree fine but don't tell me how to play. You play your way, I'll play mine.

I'm not telling you how to play. You said that if he's Town you'll blacklist him for playing against his win condition. I pointed out that deciding on your vote for the game on Page3 based on RVS nonsense is a much worse 'anti-town play' offence.

[SensFan]

Please take a moment and skim SickOfIt's iso in Newbie 1767.

The entire thing is a hodgepodge of useless posts, filler, silliness, and general non-responsiveness. Incredibly frustrating to play with? Yes. But indicative that he's Scum? No. This isn't exactly Glork we're talking about.

[SensFan]

Got prodded.

Sorry, was away for a couple days as Sunday/Monday is my weekend. I'll catch up today.

[SensFan]

Ugh. What the hell is this game? I feel like there's so little of value despite having 12 pages.

Unvote

. TF and I don't agree, but at least he's engaging people now and looks like he's making an effort. That's more than I can say for like half of these people.

[SensFan]

I'm assuming the Nadpool thing is shtick. If so, as much as I don't like it, that goes in the SickOfIt basket of "Dumb but not indicative of alignment." If this isn't shtick for that alt account, please let me know as that changes the equation significantly.

[SensFan]

Jesus. What is this game?

Just caught up on what I missed. Can someone quickly explain why you have a policy of not lynching any Scum on D1? Because that's the effect of not hammering any PR claims.

[SensFan]

Jesus. What is this game?

Just caught up on what I missed. Can someone quickly explain why you have a policy of not lynching any Scum on D1? Because that's the effect of not hammering any PR claims.

You say this like there has been an abundance of PR claims and we are simply waiting for someone to claim VT.

Who would you have liked to have seen hammered?

I don't buy the fykus wagon. I just think those who do are being either dumb or convenient by moving on. Had I bought the wagon, I gladly would have hammered with or without a claim.

If you don't hammer claimed PRs, you don't hammer Scum.

[SensFan]

Jesus. What is this game?

Just caught up on what I missed. Can someone quickly explain why you have a policy of not lynching any Scum on D1? Because that's the effect of not hammering any PR claims.

Just ISO'd you and it is pretty bad. How about you lay some reads on me?

Having a super hard time getting a read in this game, since everyone seems to be focussing on stupid shit. I'll see if I can make some sense of it tonight.

[SensFan]

2Face as a nightkill is really odd, I agree. All I remember him doing yesterday was just tunneling on stubborn reads. I find it relatively unlikely that he would have managed to convince people to jump on board with him, but I'll have to reread his ISO to see if I missed something.

Looks like SickOfIt is being wagoned right now. I didn't agree with that on D1 and still don't today. His playstyle seems in line with my low expectations from a previous game, and I don't feel the need to attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. I definitely don't think we should be trying to push people to claim this early, and think it's insane for anyone to suggest at this point in the day that they are looking for a SickOfIt claim (looking at you, BV). We already have one claim on the table, and I still think it's weird that people are playing in a way that outs multiple PRs while not lynching Scum on D1.

[SensFan]

I think calling this two dead PRs is a little misleading, when one serves as only a backup. There's a 50% chance the backup dies before the primary. I also am not willing to stipulate to the fact that SickOf is definitively a PR even with the supposed 'softclaim'. We saw the mason hijinks in RVS, and there's nothing I would put past that slot. As for why I am townreading it, I just don't see any real Scum-motivation. Everything people have pointed to that I've seen are just playstyle and general..don't know how to say it without encroaching too much into player insults. I just know I played a game with Sick where I scumread the slot for the entirety of my time in the game because I thought Town couldn't possibly think and do what he did, particularly when it came to misrepresenting what had happened in the game. Sick was Town in that game. Makes me think the usual rules don't really apply.

[SensFan]

Honestly, I just am having a really hard time getting into this game at all. I don't know what it is but think a lot of the D1 hijinks just really left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll take a deeper dive into the game tonight to see what I can come up with. Sorry for not having much content.

Also BV, I don't think any meta on me is likely to be too valuable. Until very recently (2 completed games) I had been away from the site for like 5-6 years or so. I don't think I'm the same person I was then, and presumably not the same player either.

[SensFan]

I don't know, really. Like, I saw it but just didn't have it in me to engage in this game. As I said, I've been having trouble really finding this game to be something other than a chore. Not entirely sure why. Hopefully my dive into it tonight will re-energize me.

[SensFan]

Alright. Went back to look at the Fykus wagon, since it was the biggest event of D1. Trying to get a sense of why it happened, who was pushing it, etc.

First thing I notice is that lucca was voting Fykus but moved off it right before the wagon really picked up steam, then never really commented on it or hopped back on as it got serious. I find that curious, but it could also be a coincidence. Also nothing to expand on unfortunately since like a million other people he replaced out. (Turns out he hopped on again post-claim.)
IamInnocent clearly did most of the pushing of the wagon, and seems to have been the one to lay out the clearest case. Having gone through that part of the game again, it certainly looks like a genuine and sincere effort on the part of IAI. Regardless of if/when Fykus flips, I think IAI comes off super Town in that.
Nadpool sheeps onto the wagon, which isn't super noteworthy because of the shtick but is worth mentioning. He basically just QFT'd IAI, which is something I don't really like on a wagon that's gaining steam. Again, hard to tell with the shtick.
Lastly, Sick. Wow. Reading this again, I *really* don't like Sick's participation on the wagon. Hops on to make it L-1, gets a claim, then immediately hops back off. Contrary to my prior defense of Sick for other things, that's not something that's at all explainable by my player read on Sick. I really don't like it, and it looks opportunistic as hell.
Postclaim, SSBM hopped off without any real comment, as did Shannon. Nadpool hopped off while agreeing with 2F that he won't lynch claimed PR D1.

Overall, I still remain unconvinced of the wagon and think Fykus could be NewbScum or just a in-over-his-head NewbTown. I think the case on him is legit as I said, but don't know that I'm convinced by it. I do find the actions of people involved in it odd, though, particularly anyone who jumped off. Like I said at the time, any Scum being lynched will claim a PR. I don't understand at all the idea that you won't lynch someone who claims to be a PR. Doesn't that just guarantee you'll get one or more claims and end up lynching a VT on D1 every time? Can anyone who hopped off because of the claim (or 2F who was never on it) explain that part to me?

[SensFan]

I don't know, really. Like, I saw it but just didn't have it in me to engage in this game. As I said, I've been having trouble really finding this game to be something other than a chore. Not entirely sure why. Hopefully my dive into it tonight will re-energize me.

Replace out if you're not going to play.

No. Part of the reason I've had trouble engaging in the game is the numerous people who requested to replace out. I think that's incredibly poor behaviour; we all made a commitment to the Mod and each other. You shouldn't opt out and force others to accommodate unless there's a serious RL reason.

[SensFan]

Been a super busy weekend for me, but am off the next two days. Will catch up tomorrow.

[SensFan]

Page 32:

we have another person left to lynch and I think that person should be sensfan, he's played really obvious scum this game and we should get rid of him because he's been completely useless and impossible to read

VOTE: sensfan

I can't both be very obvious Scum and completely impossible to read.

--

I don't like all the stupid WIFOM games Jupiter is playing about claiming. Softclaiming at the end of a day is really bad, refusing to commit the next day is worse.

--

Also, I am most likely going to be able to validate my claim as town by end game, so while it sounds scummy to say, please don't waste your time fosing my slot because it's actually a complete waste of time.

Terrible. "Don't bother suspecting me because eventually I'll be cleared."

--

Yup, agree with BV. The longer Jupiter stalls a claim the less I believe it.

[SensFan]

Page 33:

actually when i say wifom the scum, i'm indicating that i'm not planning to claim at all until the next day phase.

you gave your reason and i didn't like it as it doesn't sound town motivated so i'm awaiting other responses before i make my decision.

How about we start simple, do you have a role that could clear fykus? For instance anything that would return something from the mod like "no result" if you were jailed?

Once you say no to that, do you have a role like bodyguard, doctor, bulletproof that would keep someone from dying that basically counters a JKer? For instance if you are a doctor and you protected someone I'd like to know cause it would nearly confirm that player town when fykus flips scum.

Not a fan of any more partial hints or claims. Requires a full claim.

Also, you don't read well. I said I suspect you are town so not sure why all the defensive FOS talk. I also suspect you are a weaker player and wish you'd trust stronger players like BV and myself when we suggest it is in towns best interest if you claim today. Unlike BV I am not in agreement that we send a bunch of votes your way to force you to claim.

Also don't really like the "Just listen to the good players" argument at all. Cases should be weighed on their merit, not how good the person making them is.

--

Woah, okay. So Jupiter is a weird JOAT and Matt is a Doc. What? Okay, so I think we already have way too much claimed Power alive. There's a dead Tracker+backup, and we have a claimed Doc/JK/JOAT, the latter of which has a 1-shot Doc? No way. I think there's at least 1, possibly 2 Scum in that trio. A tracker and two roles to protect it seems very strong. Will have more thoughts as I keep reading.

[SensFan]

Page 34:

Some talk about a massclaim. I do agree that at this point it probably makes sense, pending what happens in the next few pages. Nothing too much to comment on here.

Page 35:

So I say we lynch Sens tomorrow, and if he flips town then lynch Nadpool.

I don't like this train of thought that we should be trying to set up future lynches. It's something that's been happening for most of the day, and just strikes me as scummy. The Scum have more information than we do right now, so why decide on a future lynch when we will have more information later?

--

Okay, I've changed my mind about wanting to slow down the game. I'll obviously be alive tomorrow to figure out the game, and there isn't much we can get from Sensfan today that we won't get tomorrow given Fykus is pretty much confirmed scum. So, might as well lynch Fykus and get on with it. I'll vote him once everyone checks in and Matt posts last thoughts.

@Matt, I haven't ruled out the scum distancing from Shannon. I'm going to have a look at her ISO and discuss in a bit.

@Mod - do you offer accelerated nights if everyone PMs you for one?

I don't like this. Why rush through things? We don't lose time later if we use it today, so I don't understand the desire to rush anything. I see you backed off of this a few posts later, but it still rubs me the wrong way. Can you explain what in your mind the benefit would be to a rushed day?

[SensFan]

Page 36:

Almost entirely WIFOM and setup speculation, which I'm not a big fan of. I don't see much use in trying to decide if Scum would or wouldn't kill a claimed PR. The one part I find very interesting is Shannon's continued insistence that there's some super weird and uncommon Scum PRs in a Normal. It's the type of thing that wouldn't even enter my mind as an option, and am curious why you are focused on that.

[SensFan]

Page 37:

I knew sick was 100% scum after claiming watcher, but I couldn't state that without outting myself, so I knew that keeping sick alive and hunting for other scum when we have lynches available was something I thought was a good idea at the time

Fair enough on forgetting his role. That was the only plausible explanation and I wanted to see if you would say that.

Really? It's plausible that a Town player forgets literally the only piece of information available to them about the setup?

--

The Sick/Fykus discussion is interesting. I'm certainly more inclined to believe that they're two partners who completely botched a distancing/bussing plan than that Fykus is Town and didn't care too much whether he or Sick was lynched. The fairly quick hammer on Sick also strikes me as a panic move rather than Town-motivated. I don't think the natural reaction to a Town player being lurky and finally having time to come back to the game is to immediately hammer.

[SensFan]

That's bullshit. He was going to be prodded in 3 hours so he showed up just in time to prod-dodge. Busy weekend didn't stop him from posting elsewhere even after this game thread opened for D3.

What do you mean by prod-dodging? Like, why would I care whether or not I get prodded?

You can think what you want. I had a super busy weekend. You're also being a little disingenuous as I made a single quick two-line post after this game opened.

[SensFan]

All in all, I think Fykus is probably the lynch for today. The interaction with Sick is abnormal, and the hammer is terrible. I believe there's only three votes on Fykus now and so will vote him pending a VC (just to be sure).

[SensFan]

Cool.

Vote: Fykus

as mentioned before.

[SensFan]

Oh shit. I hadn't considered that.

[SensFan]

I'm not really sold on the outcome of lynching a scum-Jupiter being good for us because

I have a really hard time seeing Fykus being scum playing the way he did

. I have considered all options, I looked over Lucca/Jupiter, looked over interactions between sickofit and Fykus and I still can't see a likely scenario where Fykus is town. If I'm wrong, that's a lot of re-evaluation I need to do although I'd lynch Jupiter and heavily lean towards IAI as Jupiter's partner. But most likely I think Fykus is scum and we have a pool of six to figure out the partner. So, I suggest we lynch Fykus today, see what role he has if scum, mass-claim tomorrow and then figure out where Jupiter's claim fits in.

Typo?

[SensFan]

Good game everyone.

[SensFan]

Nadpool is surprised that Nadpool was the NK.

I reasoned that I needed to take a big risk to win from that position. If I killed matt, I was getting lynched 100% in the next couple days. May as well make a weird kill to try and get the Town to WIFOM it's way into a mistake.

[SensFan]

LOL.

[SensFan]

Say what you will about my play (and it was bad). I didn't lie about my role as Town, and I didn't lie about my experience.

[SensFan]

FWIW, I stand by my thoughts re: claimed players. You're not going to lynch Scum D1 if you won't lynch someone who claims Power.

[SensFan]

Wait, the mod(s) actually deleted posts from the postmortem? I'm not impressed.