Why do YOU hate hydras, as either a player or a mod?

[wgeurts]

Alright, I've played in a fair few hydras now. This is my opinion.

Hydras can be a lot of fun, mostly for those involved in the hydra itself. It gives players a chance to possibly interact more with a user they enjoy playing with, and discussion about a game makes said game seem somewhat more involving when you have someone you know to be on the same side. As a result of hydras it is also possible for players to pick up new techniques, I can say that I've learned quite a bit from my partners. You are suddenly confronted with different ways of viewing things, manners of thinking, and varying strategies. Learning from these can aid a player, especially a newer one as it could aid them in seeing patterns. These are the benefits briefly outlined.

However then there's the fact they can actually affect games in an otherwise unnatural manner. One of the strengths of a masonry is that you can discuss varying thoughts and ideas, every hydra is somewhat like a mason-lover disregarding votes. Every player added to the game is another head the opposing team will have to compete against. This is a game of intellect and cunning, the second you're bouncing ideas back and forth you're no longer fully dependant on yourself: two people tend to work a lot more effectively than one if they both put in the needed effort.

You can also abuse hydras. As an example me and cerebus in Saga mafia planned who would speak at times, noting how certain posters were more likely to believe stances coming from one of the two heads. Cerebus was very good at getting plans going through sheer logic, I approached those where that failed. Different people work differently when dealing with others, and the second this can be manipulated by a slot you have an unfair advantage.

Cognitive dissonance also can be abused, and is abused, by hydras. Faking conversations or disputes adds an outside influence into the game that single slots simply cannot replicate. Regardless of the result, it's simply not equal.

Then we get the practical issues: many just use hydras as an excuse to not have to give a game full attention. Oft this leads to one player carrying the hydra or you end up with an apathetic slot. This isn't good. Hydras if allowed, should not be used for this reason.

Now, I love hydras, I've enjoyed them and learned a tonne from them. However considering the game, and the possible advantages gained whilst using them, I consider now that they shouldn't be allowed. Yeah they're a blast, but competitively speaking they're not equal. Which leads to the question: what do we prioritize more? Fun or play-quality?

The normal queue is a place where hydras are not allowed, however many who simply don't want to play with hydras wish to play a theme game for instance. Saying that we already have a queue without them isn't fair, as said queue is heavily restricted when it comes to choice of game.

[wgeurts]

One good question to ask is why allow hydras but not the discussion of games with those not participating disregarding replacement possibility?

[wgeurts]

myko is 100% right and neither of you are refuting his concerns.

It also doesn't solve the issue that you are still facing more opponents than you normally would, I am willing to wager that play quality increases when you have the ability to discuss things with someone you know for certain is on your side.

[wgeurts]

Quote not meant to be there

[wgeurts]

All those that saying two heads doesn't give you an advantage in quality of play, consider this.

Who tends to get more done: somebody working on their own, or someone working with a partner they get along worth?
Hydras have the power to be around more, form stronger reads easier as brainstorming situations and possibilities is significantly easier whilst having someone else to bounce around thoughts with, whilst also simply being able to behave differently as to reach varying users.

Of course a single player can play as well as or better than a hydra, however that doesn't change the matter that they potentially have a quite significant advantage other others. The fact some hydras disagree or form bad reads isn't a disadvantage of hydras, it's a result of the players in it not being capable of working together well or simply both not being that experienced. Place two high-quality players that put effort into a game and I'm willing to bet a single slot would not be able to play as well with equal effort.

When you play chess you don't get to consult others all the time, it's an individual intellectual challenge. Mafia is all about this, what's the difference?

[wgeurts]

If fun is the main factor for having them why don't we allow specific users to private message other players whilst we are at it?
Changes how others have to approach the game whilst giving the user an advantage, just like hydras. Although this scenario is a lot more severe it boils down to the same issue.

[wgeurts]

The difference is that private messaging may affect someone's read on the slot, while hydraing both heads know they're town but they still must convince others they're town like any other slot.

How about the rule that states that we're not allowed to talk with others outside of a game even though they will never replace in?
That rule is there for the same reason, as doing so strips the game of one its core aspects and provides all those that do utilise the opportunity with an advantage others wouldn't have otherwise.

Once again, you don't have players of chess get the chance to consult on others in a match. You don't have triathlon competitors sign multiple people under one slot, each specialising in one of the challenges. Why then allow this in mafia as a competitive game meant to be about a group of individuals skill?

[wgeurts]

How about the rule that states that we're not allowed to talk with others outside of a game even though they will never replace in?

It's the same as hydraing with someone who doesn't really want to hydra.

It isn't, it's the same as hydraing with someone who doesn't want to post but will still provide sound analysis and discuss the game with their partners.

[wgeurts]

idk, that could apply to hydras where one head posts other just advices.

I know it can, which is why it is odd for us to allow one but not the latter.

[wgeurts]

And if there's nobody to replace in, and thus it takes longer to start the game, or you have a slot empty indefinitely?

but uhhhh these are also issues if you replace out mid-game??

and uhhh i'd rather wait for my game a bit longer rather than have an empty slot midgame ruining everything

Why face the issue at all in the first place?

There has yet to be a really strong argument in favour of hydras, besides fun.