PTs Not Released - Why is this a Thing?

[Cerberus v666]

I have a question.

Does anyone in this thread actually believe that Scum PT should be released

against

the scum team's will?

Like, you are modding a game, and the scum team tells you

not to release the scum PT

, would you release it anyway?

Absolutely, 100%. Of course, if I weren't too lazy to run a game, anyone signing up would know that all PTs will be released after the game, and I'd give them an opportunity to have anything of afternythungn exceptionally personal nature redacted.

Anything game related though? That stays in.

I believe that not releasing any PTs is against the spirit of the game. If you're getting mad at people shittalking you, then grow thicker skin (you really need thick skin for this game regardless) or don't play with them in future games. If you're worried about your people figuring out your scumplay, then your scumplay has holes in it that needs to be fixed anyways, and people discovering and using them in the future is a good way to figure out what they are. If you have private information in there, ask a mod to redact those posts before releasing the PT.

There's nothing I find more annoying than playing a hard fought game as town and seeing that the scumteam decided not to release their PT. I like to be able to see their reasoning and what they were thinking as they played the game. They already have a pretty good idea about what most of the town was thinking for most of the game while the game is going on, so why can't I get the same courtesy?

I don't think any of the stated reasons are good reasons to not release a PT.

Agreed.

My opinion is that one is entirely accountable for what one says.

There is no viable reason not to.
- Trashtalk? Well they're gonna see it and if you don't want them to see it then you are a horrible person.
- Laying down your meta? Well if you're not capable of adapting to that fact, then tough break.

If you think these are compelling reasons, you are not engaging with this in a meaningful way.

Dissemination of information is a compelling reason in and of itself. The onus is on those trying to argue that their secrecy in a silly game is sacred to present compelling reasons why that should be the case.

[Cerberus v666]

There is no viable reason not to.
- Trashtalk? Well they're gonna see it and if you don't want them to see it then you are a horrible person.

some people dont take honest talk very well, ive had scum qts where we discuss who the shittiest town players are so we could leave them alive and how we can manipulate them best and boy oh boy did they not like that post-game

how would you honestly react to a qt where people are discussing how much terrible you are at the game and how they can best fuck with you to make you rage or lurk for instance

Honestly? I'd be disappointed in myself for being such an easy target.

I'll admit to being outside the norm in terms of how I tend to react to things though.

The real question here is: is it the moderators job to coddle their weaker players and keep them from getting upset? Is it their job to protect their stronger players from the consequences of being nasty in a scum PT? During the game, sure. Afterwards? Absolutely not.

Pedit: nope, wouldn't allow it. As I said, anything game related remains in the game. I am coming from a unique perspective though, even in my hydras where we talk on skype, I post every single game related thing into our hydra pt, regardless of what it may reveal about my opinion of someone, because I know having insight into other players minds is something that will greatly enhance the post game for some people.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, also! The only compelling argument(which I don't think anyone here has expresed, but I may have missed it) in favor of thr guaranteed option of secrecy in any and all PTs is a desire to not potentially hobble people in PTs by forcing them to find new, more subtle or pc ways of pushing paths they support for reasons they would rather not have known publicly.

I'm not sympathetic to this idea because language is versatile, there's no reason why the fundamentals of your argument, or at least the strength of your belief on it, can't be communicated in terms you'd be comfortable using publicly, and thus I feel that being hobbled by this is a failing on your part....one you should remedy.

Pedit: mafia isn't a game about "being nice". This also raises the point that perhaps that easily manipulated individual didn't even realize that, and that bit of the pt will inform them and allow them to become better players. I saw some people make the point that nobody is under any obligation to help their enemies become better at the game....but that's low level thinking. Is your win rate so much more important to you than actually playing a good game that you'd rather ensure the poor players in the community are denied the opportunity to become better through superior knowledge of individuals thought processes as scum?

[Cerberus v666]

I mean I think a good chunk of people who have commented don't mod games usually?

Yep. Pretty sure any mod who cares about this issue would make a point of including notification of that fact in the signups.

@FakeGod: perhaps instead you should learn to be a better person, one who, if they rolled scum, wouldn't have cause to desire that their pt be withheld.

[Cerberus v666]

I meam, I already responded to that FA. I don't view that as a good reason at all.

[Cerberus v666]

See, I'm of the opinion that the players have no reason to expect that their words will be kept private. It's not the mods job to protect them from the fallout of whatever they may say, it's their job to do so.

Letting scum teams decide to keep their pt private is letting the minority deprIve everyone everyone of part of the experience of the game. The other players signed up for a full experience, not an abbreviated one.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh sure, I agree that it should be known in advance thatt everything will be shared, so people know..but that isn't really relevant to the idea that the standard should be revealing all pts.

[Cerberus v666]

Umm, because it's CLEARLY conversation related to the game? As important as the actual game thread imo.

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PTs should be revealed foo. That's not a significant point.

It makes perfect sense? The scum thread is clearly integral to the game and determining what happens in the game. Preventing "drama" shouldn't even be a concern, it's not the mods job to do anything besides run the game itself. I maintain that releasing all PTs is part of running the game, but once it's out there the mods job is done.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and it's their responsibility to do so because they're the only ones who can. :p

[Cerberus v666]

Your response makes no sense.

There is NOBODY ELSE whose responsibility it could be. Nobody else involved in the game has the ability to make PTs public, therefore doing so falls on the moderator. The decision of whether or not pts should be released is absolutely theirs to make.

Do they have ro do it? No.

Should they? Yes.

Should we redefine what duties are expected of a moderator, so they HAVE to do it in the future? Yes.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh and the reason why it's part of the game is because of the expectation. The players, when they signed up, EXPECTED, through unspoken rules and based on their prior experiences, that private topics like the scum chat would be shared. By not releasing that PT, moderators are acting in defiance of the expectations of their players.

For instance, if I KNEW in advance that a scum PT was more likely to be concealed than revealed, I likely wouldn't sign up for the game. It's only because I know it is the EXCEPTION, rather than the rule, that a scum PT is concealed, that I'm comfortable playing.

Pedit: there are two parts to my point. First is the fact that the moderators are the only ones who can reveal PTs. That is one thing, and we don't disagree on it. Second is the idea that moderators are EXPECTED to reveal those PTs, and thus by opening a game without any indication that PTs may not be released, they have a responsibility to live up to those expectations of the players.

[Cerberus v666]

Obviously I can only speak from personal experience, but the vast majority of games I've played in and spectator have the scum PTs revealed. If a certain action occurs the majority of the time, people expect it. When I lived in Cali, I expected nice weather. When I drove during rush hour, I expected traffic. Though there may have been exceptions, the majority of the time this was simply the way things were, so going forward I expected it to continue being that way.

If you can show me that, over the last year or so, a significant majority of games don't have their scum pts shared, then I'll admit to being wrong about the expectations of players.

Pedit: exactly what infinity said about the godfather effect.

[Cerberus v666]

I still don't think that justifies refusing to delete any posts from the pt though

I didn't say I would refuse to delete any posts, only that I would refuse to delete any posts that are game related. Personal info can be redacted, so long as it's not relevant to the game.

[Cerberus v666]

*nods* I get that, and that's where our opinions differ, because you're nicer than I am.

[Cerberus v666]

*sigh* that was the agree to disagree moment, which means we didn't accomplish anything.

[Cerberus v666]

I have a question.

Does anyone in this thread actually believe that Scum PT should be released

against

the scum team's will?

Like, you are modding a game, and the scum team tells you

not to release the scum PT

, would you release it anyway?

Absolutely, 100%. Of course, if I weren't too lazy to run a game, anyone signing up would know that all PTs will be released after the game, and I'd give them an opportunity to have anything of afternythungn exceptionally personal nature redacted.

Anything game related though? That stays in.

I believe that not releasing any PTs is against the spirit of the game. If you're getting mad at people shittalking you, then grow thicker skin (you really need thick skin for this game regardless) or don't play with them in future games. If you're worried about your people figuring out your scumplay, then your scumplay has holes in it that needs to be fixed anyways, and people discovering and using them in the future is a good way to figure out what they are. If you have private information in there, ask a mod to redact those posts before releasing the PT.

There's nothing I find more annoying than playing a hard fought game as town and seeing that the scumteam decided not to release their PT. I like to be able to see their reasoning and what they were thinking as they played the game. They already have a pretty good idea about what most of the town was thinking for most of the game while the game is going on, so why can't I get the same courtesy?

I don't think any of the stated reasons are good reasons to not release a PT.

Agreed.

My opinion is that one is entirely accountable for what one says.

There is no viable reason not to.
- Trashtalk? Well they're gonna see it and if you don't want them to see it then you are a horrible person.
- Laying down your meta? Well if you're not capable of adapting to that fact, then tough break.

If you think these are compelling reasons, you are not engaging with this in a meaningful way.

Dissemination of information is a compelling reason in and of itself. The onus is on those trying to argue that their secrecy in a silly game is sacred to present compelling reasons why that should be the case.

There is no viable reason not to.
- Trashtalk? Well they're gonna see it and if you don't want them to see it then you are a horrible person.

some people dont take honest talk very well, ive had scum qts where we discuss who the shittiest town players are so we could leave them alive and how we can manipulate them best and boy oh boy did they not like that post-game

how would you honestly react to a qt where people are discussing how much terrible you are at the game and how they can best fuck with you to make you rage or lurk for instance

Honestly? I'd be disappointed in myself for being such an easy target.

I'll admit to being outside the norm in terms of how I tend to react to things though.

The real question here is: is it the moderators job to coddle their weaker players and keep them from getting upset? Is it their job to protect their stronger players from the consequences of being nasty in a scum PT? During the game, sure. Afterwards? Absolutely not.

Pedit: nope, wouldn't allow it. As I said, anything game related remains in the game. I am coming from a unique perspective though, even in my hydras where we talk on skype, I post every single game related thing into our hydra pt, regardless of what it may reveal about my opinion of someone, because I know having insight into other players minds is something that will greatly enhance the post game for some people.

Oh, also! The only compelling argument(which I don't think anyone here has expresed, but I may have missed it) in favor of thr guaranteed option of secrecy in any and all PTs is a desire to not potentially hobble people in PTs by forcing them to find new, more subtle or pc ways of pushing paths they support for reasons they would rather not have known publicly.

I'm not sympathetic to this idea because language is versatile, there's no reason why the fundamentals of your argument, or at least the strength of your belief on it, can't be communicated in terms you'd be comfortable using publicly, and thus I feel that being hobbled by this is a failing on your part....one you should remedy.

Pedit: mafia isn't a game about "being nice". This also raises the point that perhaps that easily manipulated individual didn't even realize that, and that bit of the pt will inform them and allow them to become better players. I saw some people make the point that nobody is under any obligation to help their enemies become better at the game....but that's low level thinking. Is your win rate so much more important to you than actually playing a good game that you'd rather ensure the poor players in the community are denied the opportunity to become better through superior knowledge of individuals thought processes as scum?

These are the points I made prior to your entry to the thread.

All the arguments against releasing PTs are incredibly weak in my opinion.

[Cerberus v666]

If its aint broken don't fix it.

this apply here I guess. This is one of the changes that its harm is more than the "nothing" your fixing probably

IT IS BROKEN THOUGH.

[Cerberus v666]

Before someone call me offensive like people usually do whenever I start talking on MS; I'm criticizing the proposed idea and nothing against Cerb or anyone else. I'm not going to apologize for no shit. I love him as a person and player and I respect his line of thinking. I beleive he is wrong in this - and even if he is right - till the moment I get convinced otherwise I see no reason for changing a behavior.

<3

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PTs are an interesting situation. I think they should also be released, but I don't believe it's as damaging to the game to NOT release them. So, I don't think forcing their release is necessary, unlike with scum PTs.

I agree that it's reasonable. I simply don't believe it's the right way to handle it, because of all the reasons I've already given.

Pedit: Because it's part of the experience of playing mafia in this format, because it's the expectation(for me at least, and I'm quite certain for others), because it's VERY interesting to see how scum teams coordinated and worked together, and what their plans were, how they reacted to different events and how those decisions were made, and yes, to gain a deeper understanding of mafia through studying the play of others.

[Cerberus v666]

*shrug* there should be no expectation of privacy in those topics once the game is over. The topic exists SOLELY to facilitate the game running, and is private as a result. Once it's over, no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to read it.

[Cerberus v666]

The only reason why it's not contained in the main thread is because it can't be, mechanically speaking. It is an ESSENTIAL part of the game. Any argument that it's NOT part of the game is disingenuous at best.

Pedit: I don't think it should even be a question. I think it should be known that pts are released, and players should act appropriately. SO, I suppose the moderator. The players choice shouldn't matter, because it was made when they joined the game.

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PTs are an interesting situation. I think they should also be released, but I don't believe it's as damaging to the game to NOT release them. So, I don't think forcing their release is necessary, unlike with scum PTs.

oh btw if you modding a game with this approach please tell me before signing up so I never join. I'm really really really protesting against "proposing" the idea mods have any rights to even ask for releasing hydra pt's after game finish.

pedit : No. I'm not talking about semantics ... Private communication must remain private unless the involved people confirm its right to release it.

Oh, if I ever mod a game it will be with this approach, and it will be clearly announced in the signup thread.

Pedit: yes, what infinity said..the conversation isn't private because the people involved expect it to never be shared. It's private because the game requires a means of private communication between members of the scum team.

[Cerberus v666]

re: the "scum tactics" argument; this essentially gives the other scumteam members an "unfair advantage", so to speak, because

they

will have access to the pt, while others don't

re: the "it's in the private topics section, so it's private"; that's just semantics

Indeed. FA is right that the fundamental issue here is whether or not the scum team should EXPECT privacy, and if they do, whether or not the moderator should grant them it. I believe that they shouldn't expect privacy, and thus everything else is irrelevant. She believes that they should, and the moderator should do as they wish.

The idea of the scum chats existing as Private Topics is only relevant insofar as the name potentially creates a false expectation of privacy after the game ends.

[Cerberus v666]

I believe she means she prefers to get their acceptance after the game is over because it removes any responsibility for revealing what was said and the consequences of said reveal from the moderator. Basically, she prefers it because anything which results from then pt being revealed happened because the players chose to reveal the pt.

[Cerberus v666]

Is that Alisale or grey talking? Either way that makes me sad.

[Cerberus v666]

I already recklessly discuss strategy and don't worry about hurt feelings and when I release the scum PT nobody complains

Can someone link me to an instance of released scum PT causing drama

Serio. If the drama exists, it's not because of what's said in scum PTs, it's because of what already happened in the game.

[Cerberus v666]

Well, Drixx and I make a point of copying every single conversation we have about a game, no matter what the medium is, into our hydra PT.

They're all the same as far as I'm concerned, insufficient reason to keep them sealed.

[Cerberus v666]

Sure a mod can't make people do that, and they shouldn't. It's really not important thiugh, if you talked about stuff outside of the PT that doesn't have any relevance to whether or not the mod should release the pt.

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PT's aren't any more game specific than scum PT's.

Do you really think that if I don't care about people censoring themselves in scum PT's that it would matter to me if they do so in their hydra PT's?

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PT's aren't any more game specific than scum PT's.

Do you really think that if I don't care about people censoring themselves in scum PT's that it would matter to me if they do so in their hydra PT's?

They're not game specific because we use one hydra PT for every conversation we've ever had is what I'm saying. Releasing that would mean releasing personal information between friends as well as modding information.

Ah. Yeah, that just means you should be using your own mod powers to make game specific hydra PTs. Or ask the mod to do so for you. I have a bunch of individual channels in our slack for each game we play togther, just like I have individual hydra PTs for each game.

Pedit: <3 BTD6. THAT'S HOW YOU CHANGE THINGS. Not by just bitching about them, and arguing here, but by actively moving to change the culture.

I wish I had the desire to run games, so I could run awesome games everyone would want to be a part of that happened to include things like PTs that will not be allowed to be kept sealed.

[Cerberus v666]

FA, I'm talking about my position and actions here. Since the status quo is to let the players decide, and I think it should he different, not doing anything besides complaining here is ineffectual. What is actually effective is running games with those expectations, and running them well, so that way the prevailing standard changes.

@drealmerz: I think your concern about hydrae is, to be quite frank, really dumb. As Accountant said, if the members of the hydra are going to break rules in some way that makea them talking about the game outside of your view unacceptable, then they will do it whether or not they're in a hydra, and whether or not they have a PT to talk in. If they're NOT going to break the rules, then the fact that they're discussing the game through a private medium that isn't the topic you provided is irrelevant.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, that's fair then. You, as the mod, can certainly say you want all conversation to take place in that PT. That's very different than you saying that you'll never allow hydrae in your games.

It's just a matter of making your expectations clear.

For example, when we first hydraed, drixx and I made sure the moderator was okay with us talking via another chat system so we could do so in a dynamic back and forth fashion , and they were. We've since become lazy about asking new moderators if they're okay with that(but a lot of those new moderators are people who havd played sith us and know we chat on slack and transfer our conversations in the PT afterwards), but if a moderator didn't want us to talk at all outside of the PT, we'd either abide, or we just wouldn't play, depending on how painful we expected PT only conversation to be.

[Cerberus v666]

No, that's fine. I understand why you'd want to do it. But what do you do when every member of the pt says "I want everything I said censored from the pt".

I can understand a certain level of discretion, out of courtesy, but if they want you to remove game related things, I don't think that's okay. Even if those things are potentially hurtful, like "Let's leave x and x alive because they're fucking stupid".

I could see allowing editing of the previous statement to be couched in less offensive terms, but not the wholesale removal of the statement/the gist of the reason.

[Cerberus v666]

Yeah, pretty much what zoraster said.

The hydra pt thing is, well, a sideshow. A distraction. The IMPORTANT thing here is the discussion about scum pts. Hydra pts just came up because people want to pretend they're exactly the same, then use the reasons why hydra pts are different to defend not releasing scum pts.

[Cerberus v666]

Let's stop talking about hydra pts. Nobody should give a fuck. Scum PTs are what matter.

[Cerberus v666]

The argument in favor that I have is that it helps give context to the game as a whole. You can better understand exactly what happened and why. This is the same for say, why reveal what roles existed in the game. Or night actions.

Well put.

[Cerberus v666]

yeah you're right i thought about that counter argument but was too lazy to really think of an opposing response

really though if you want constructed response like that you should just ask someone instead of reading it in an unhealthy way that'll make you sad

This doesn't work.

It's quite rare to get a response if you post a request for critiques post game.

[Cerberus v666]

That's awfully rude of you to say that I would go through underhanded ways to win.

What I stated is simply the same as town players not revealing the tells they have on a player.

I believe both of those things are shitty.

We, as a community, should want everyone to be better at the game, so the games we play here are higher quality.

[Cerberus v666]

That's awfully rude of you to say that I would go through underhanded ways to win.

What I stated is simply the same as town players not revealing the tells they have on a player.

I believe both of those things are shitty.

We, as a community, should want everyone to be better at the game, so the games we play here are higher quality.

If people really wanted to get better at the game they could read what I write in MD pertaining to gameplay and my discussions about everything that is wrong about MS in the game threads.

Assuming your game theories are all optimal, then, after that, what should they do? Doing as you suggest does nothing to remove the value of insights offered by others pertaining to their play in the very game they were just part of.

I don't believe you have anything constructive to say here Katsuki. Your arguments fail to address the fundamental point that everything you suggest people do would be ENHANCED by the points your arguing against. Yes, of course you can and should analyze your own play, but that doesn't mean that other tools should be ignored.