XnadrojX's Mini Normal Review the Second


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Post Post #2 (isolation #0) » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:37 am

Post by mykonian »

the traitor is closer to a full goon than a nonentity. 3:10 is already super rough on town. Town has actually very little firepower and scum get 1.5 roles.

This is miles away from where it'd need to be to make it somewhat fair.

I haven't looked closely if the psychic is normal enough yet.
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Post Post #4 (isolation #1) » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:54 pm

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you and I both know that although 3:10 is standard, you need to work it to make it balanced, actually throw a lot at town (as per hoopla's numbers) and give scum nothing to make it fair. That's because you start out little over 20% win chance for town. 9:4 more than halves that. I seriously doubt you can somehow make up 40% winrate with 2 mislynches for 4 scum while keeping the game normal and not broken in some way.

Like, make the Mafia JK a VT, take out the "gain all results" power the psychic got, because the more I think about it the more that's a themed ability at heart, and you are going places with a weakened scumteam. A doublevoter and an odd night cop is still not a strong town, for sure it doesn't feel townsided even then, but that should be playable?

At that point though, it's not even the same setup anymore. I think Jordan wanted to play with the psychic, I don't think that's a good idea. And then I took out the strongest mafia PR to give town another VT. It's a question if Jordan wants this, or if it's better to start from scratch then anyway.
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Post Post #7 (isolation #2) » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:07 am

Post by mykonian »

Nah, it goes through a different route than inspecting in normals. Inspections target a certain player, then you get information on that player based on a known set of rules (whether they moved, whether they had a gun, etc). Further, normals are characterised by straightforward night actions, which support the game, while this is dependent and does a lot of different things and makes the game about the role (tells you what information roles are in the game, a bunch of results, no names to go with them?). It fits much better in a role madness game than here.
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Post Post #10 (isolation #3) » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:50 am

Post by mykonian »

I think we cut godfather entirely from normals. Could you make him ascetic instead?
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Post Post #12 (isolation #4) » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:16 am

Post by mykonian »

it got removed before you joined, about a year ago :)

anyway, what are we at then:

1 goons
1 1 shot ninja
1 ascetic traitor

vs

miller doublevoter
odd night cop
even night cop
2 shot friendly neighbour
VT's

Yeah I'm happy with that. There aren't too many confirmed players in all likelyhood, town has some power, but it's diffuse. This seems nicely playable.
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Post Post #17 (isolation #5) » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:48 pm

Post by mykonian »

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to be the grump again.

The role pm's are too verbose as it is. In normals there shouldn't be flavour in them, claims should be about the day play, not how well you describe your role pm. Concretely, the cops could confirm themselves to another via the explanation that's given for the odd/even nightness. But for other roles, this could be a problem as well. It's fine for theme's, but here you want a role name, what it does, what the win condition is.

Further, if it's a miller double voter, I think it's better if it's just called that way. Makes the flip way easier to read, is understandable in claim situations.
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Post Post #20 (isolation #6) » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:18 am

Post by mykonian »

I get mastins issue, I don't think you have to be too drastic about solving it.

Yes the FN and the cop inno's will not be lynched in all likelyhood, that's a threat. The miller, for sure, is on the chopping block, esspecially given his vote isn't made to be public (which makes the role way more ambiguous). I think you are overestimating that claimed roles aren't lynched. There's so many ways that town can and will screw up from your "perfect" top down view of the game. Without perfect information, a claimed even night cop after a claimed odd night cop (if he even claims his odd-night ness) is going to be way more dubious than it looks from here.

I think if you are worried about an amount of inno's taking over the scum, you take away the FN and replace it with something that won't straight up confirm itself, but does bring a little bit of power, because I think you hit the mark with that setup powerwise, Jordan. Say, a commuter, a bp, a follower would work, a neighbouriser could work, stuff like that. Plenty of other options in all likehood. I wouldn't stray too far from what you had there.
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Post Post #24 (isolation #7) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:33 pm

Post by mykonian »

1 3S Gunsmith
1 Odd-Night Cop
1 Miller DoubleVoter
1 2 shot tracker
6 VT's

1 Mafia Ascetic
1 Mafia OS Ninja
1 Mafia RoleBlocker


I don't think scum needs three roles for that town.
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Post Post #25 (isolation #8) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:33 pm

Post by mykonian »

darnit smith :P
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Post Post #29 (isolation #9) » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:29 pm

Post by mykonian »

I'm sorry jordan, my brain is mush, has been mush for the last 3 days. I'll post something when I can actually read your post in one go.
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Post Post #31 (isolation #10) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:34 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 24, mykonian wrote:1 3S Gunsmith
1 Odd-Night Cop
1 Miller DoubleVoter
1 2 shot tracker
6 VT's

1 Mafia Ascetic
1 Mafia OS Ninja
1 Mafia RoleBlocker


I don't think scum needs three roles for that town.
In post 26, XnadrojX wrote:There's a lot of investigation power but a lot of it is mitigatable by potentially guiltying on a town and the amount of scum power.
Yes
The tracker is generally not considered am incredibly strong investigative due to the fact you can only guilty one person at most and it's easy to fakeclaim out, as well as potentially guiltying the other investigatives.
Yes
The gunsmith, although strong, is offset by the RoleBlocker and the potential to guilty on the cop.
Verily
The cop can guilty on the Miller, who itself is a power role, as well as being blocked by the RoleBlocker.
Debatable. The miller could very well claim early to avoid this, making it just a downside for the miller, not the odd night cop. Point about the RB stands.
Scum can roleblock and kill the investigatives quite easily, and all but the cop can be claimed out of. The cop itself only gets at most 2 inspects out, and the inspects are stoppable by Roleblocker and the Ascetic. The gunsmith can be fakeclaim out of followed by a NK, Tracker has minimal power, and Cop can be Roleblocker until it can be killed in a timely manner.
And without a scum lynch the cops claim, if he is so greedy to wait till half the town is dead to get his 2 investigations, in lylo. Might not even help the town that much there. Otherwise, yes to all.
And then the Miller Doublevoter's great power is offset by the fact that it can be guiltyed by the cop and that it's vote is hidden, meaning town has to waste a day to confirm the claim.
More likely by his own claim, depending if he does that, otherwise, yes.
It's a little more to town favour than mountainous 10:3, but the chances of all the investigative power to not be incredibly successful offsets that. The best part of the power roles here is it's claimability, but investigatives in LyLo gets suspected more than usual.
Yes, but... You've put if's and buts with every town power, none is particulary strong on it's own given they are limited on top, and scum have an answer for everything. Mountainous 10:3 is utterly horrible for town, you need to do a lot better than giving town a slight edge on top. You have to cut down on scum answers to towns power here. Like, cut the ninja, cut the RB, and it's a setup that is ballpark in the right direction, even then probably scumsided. I think Hoopla came up with the guideline of 3 full town pr's more than scum got pr's to get games that ended up being around 50% winrate (obviously strength of pr's matters some but that way she got to condense the data). Here, town gets one, and 3 half ones. Scum get 2 and a half one, of which the RB has shown to be very potent over the years. Something has gone awry!
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Post Post #32 (isolation #11) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:35 am

Post by mykonian »

aww crap I don't have editing rights here. I must have mucked up the quote tags. Sorry, hope it's readable.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #12) » Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:38 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 33, mhsmith0 wrote:I'll do a check on stuff w similar investigation heavy setups, but I'm pretty skeptical of cutting the Roleblocker from a two investigative setup, with a third claimable ability and a miller who's probably never getting lynched. Dropping ninja MAY be ok, but dropping Roleblocker isn't unless my checks of similar games tells me something surprising.
Only the gunsmith is a "full" role. Calling it a 3 investigative setup is somewhat flattering.

While smith is searcing, I assume you didn't want to adjust the lynch treshold to account for the extra vote, Jordan?
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Post Post #40 (isolation #13) » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:13 am

Post by mykonian »

oh, we got better at judging RB's then :) Lovely.

Still properly scared of pitting the RB against the ~1 and 2 half investigative roles here. It's giving scum way too much handle on the game where you are judging towns power in how likely they are to lynch an odd night cop in a game with a gunsmith. I guess we are assuming then that scum claim VT? I would leave claims and lynches up to the players, that could go wrong and right in so many ways.
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Post Post #44 (isolation #14) » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:34 pm

Post by mykonian »

In post 41, mhsmith0 wrote:If town can keep big two PRs alive night one and dodge the Roleblocker and ascetic
Yeah this is too short to me. If I'd add to that, you could see where my worry lies:

If the town can keep the two big pr's alive, and dodge the RB and the ascetic, and the miller claims or the cop doesn't investigate it, and the gunsmith avoids investigating the cop,

then still night two town only get one investigation from the pair.


I think even if they only had to dodge a stationary target (the ascetic), town could be in decent trouble if one of the investigatives actually does hit him. Giving scum the opportunity to lock one investigative down if they had a good read or a claim happened, that's just too surefire that they'll be able to mess with towns power. Even the basic odds already become quite a bit worse, and I think town needs 2 solid investigative results to put pressure on scum (like give town a guilty and an inno, eh, that game can go places, you can worry scum without that being broken). 3 and town could be in a happy place, but 3 means that if the gunsmith gets the guilty (2:1) you'll actually still have a claim situation on your hands which might not make a guilty so obvious.

I am making a wall again, but tl;dr I feel the setup as is gives town a whole lot of things to dodge for not too much gain, given the cop isnt full.
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Post Post #46 (isolation #15) » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:43 pm

Post by mykonian »

yes, I'm quite ignoring that. If a claimed role could get to be semi confirmed, so could a fakeclaimed role from mafia. I feel that's part of play, not of the setup, given the roles aren't actually that confirmable.
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Post Post #50 (isolation #16) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:28 am

Post by mykonian »

I want the RB to go. I feel it's taking a sledgehammer to not such a solid town.

Like as a compromise, bc we should move there someday, you could make it a limited shot information role, but I really think you should get out of the towns power's way and actually let them do their work somewhat unobstructed to end up with a fair game. If it were a full cop and a full tracker her in stead, or if there were a protective role in the mix, I could see the lure of a full scum roleblocker. Here I think it's way too generous.
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Post Post #54 (isolation #17) » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:32 pm

Post by mykonian »

shrug, go ahead then.
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Post Post #68 (isolation #18) » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:39 pm

Post by mykonian »

In post 63, mhsmith0 wrote:Ascetic is nearly useless, and is basically a RNG element added to the game (unless scum claim it which actually bizarrely happens). I can live with a two shot Roleblocker and day talk and no ascetic I guess.
If this is the route you'd go with, I could live with that.
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Post Post #69 (isolation #19) » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:56 pm

Post by mykonian »

I think we'll need roles then!

Rather awkwardly I won't be here in the coming week and a half. I hope you can do with just 2 reviewers actually signing off on the setup. I think the more heavy lifting has been done for this game now...
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Post Post #98 (isolation #20) » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:12 am

Post by mykonian »

In post 96, XnadrojX wrote:What's the difference between making th announce second vote and doing it in a different colour?
As long as it's obvious to people reading the thread, you are fine. Just make sure you don't have to guess if they are shifting their first vote, or making a second.
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Post Post #102 (isolation #21) » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:32 pm

Post by mykonian »

Yes, I'm fine with this.
In post 88, Nexus wrote:I mean, we can change what is normal in a way, right? I agree with you - public double-voters are imo the only acceptable ones for a normal game.
You probably want to copy this to somewhere central for the rest to read.
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Post Post #105 (isolation #22) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:29 am

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I thought we had the roles on the previous, all but the doublevoter which had to be adjusted which is what we got here. Similar for the rules, they were a little after, iirc.
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Post Post #115 (isolation #23) » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:55 pm

Post by mykonian »

/happy

(jeez we took our time with this, sorry :( )
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