XnadrojX's Mini Normal Review the Second

[mhsmith0]

9/4 with

Mafia
goon
traitor
1-shot ninja
jailkeeper

Town
Miller Doublevoter One-time PM results copier
Odd night cop
1-shot friendly neighbor
2-shot friendly neighbor
5 VTs

Probably scumsided, but mainly just weird in the mix of town/scum, and probably a LOT of swing given the cop, the multiple friendly neighbors, and the seemingly superpowered miller role.

Why 9/4 and not 10/3 as is the norm in these games?

[mhsmith0]

Well 10/3 is basically the standard alignment distribution, then it's a matter of finding the right role balance. 9/4 requires a different role balance, and I would actually suggest the the four town roles are substantially stronger than your typical set, although the overlap between the cop and the multiple friendly neighbors seems super prone to swing.

[mhsmith0]

Incidentally, if you want a godfather traitor, you could just make the cops gunsmiths, and it has the same effect since traitors don't have guns.

[mhsmith0]

Town
2-shot tracker
3-shot gunsmith
odd night cop
miller doublevoter
6 VTs

Scum
1-shot ninja
ascetic
roleblocker

Since I think the idea is that the tracker is a low utility cherry on top power, I'm somewhat inclined to turn the ninja into a full ninja. That gives scum three full power roles against town's four power roles, two of which (cop and gunsmith) are high utility, one of which is a passive claimable that will never get targeted by either cop role (which is strong for town). I'm slightly concerned about the over-abundance of information roles (three is a pretty strong number), but the tracker is mediocre, especially gated, and scum get to roleblock AND shoot every night, and neither of those actions can be stopped.

[mhsmith0]

I'll do a check on stuff w similar investigation heavy setups, but I'm pretty skeptical of cutting the Roleblocker from a two investigative setup, with a third claimable ability and a miller who's probably never getting lynched. Dropping ninja MAY be ok, but dropping Roleblocker isn't unless my checks of similar games tells me something surprising.

[mhsmith0]

So gunsmith/cop setups:

mini 1514 town win night 3, 5 town survived
cop/odd and even vig/cowardly gunsmith
vs tracker / godfather / roleblocker

mini 1707 town win day 5, 7 town survived
jk / ascetic odd cop / even gs / backup role cop (named townie)
vs goon/goon/encryptor

1708 scum win, 1 scum lived
1-shot gs / even cop / town backup / jk
vs goon/goon/tracker

1763 scum win, 2 scum lived
joat (v cop, follower, neighborizer) / 1-shot vig / 2-shot cop / odd gs
vs even gs / encryptor / 2-shot role cop


roleblocker setups

FWIW, 10v3 mini normal games with roleblockers have as a whole been pretty balanced, around 50% town win rate

Spoiler:

1794 town win
doc, gunslinger, cop
vs rb, encryptor, goon

1772 town win
doc, roleblocker, macho tracker
vs rb, goon, goon

1719 scum win
1-shot BP, mason, mason, doc
vs rb, goon, goon (very different game here, town power was mainly passive)

1715 town win
doc, cop, role cop, jailkeeper
vs rb, godfather, goon

1709 scum win
1-shot gunsmith, JOAT, role cop, doctor
vs rb, watcher, goon

1666 scum win
tracker, 1-shot BP, cop, 1-shot vig neighbor, vanilla neighbor
vs rb, godfather, neighbor

1662 town win
tracker, vig, doc
vs rb, goon, goon

1653 scum win
doc, cop, 1-shot vig
vs rb, goon, goon

1596 scum win
miller, doc, cop
vs rb, goon, goon

1527 town win
bodyguard, cop, 2-shot vig
vs rb, goon, goon

1514 town win
even night vig, cowardly gunsmith, cop, odd night vig
vs rb, godfather, goon

etc

In general, against a roleblocker, town has had at least one really strong power role, or multiple passives (like 1719). The JOAT isn't strong enough, and tracker is a middling town power in a 13p game.

so...

1 3S Gunsmith
1 Odd-Night Cop
1 Miller DoubleVoter
1 2 shot tracker
6 VT's

1 Mafia Ascetic
1 Mafia OS Ninja
1 Mafia RoleBlocker

You've got two roles that are essentially never ever getting lynched (cop and gs), and a third role that is going to always be claimed and probably not going to get lynched barring weirdness, and a fourth role that is inherently dubious as a claim but that is at least a plausible claim that likely buys scum's ire, and that can plausibly note roleblocking abilities (if targeting ascetic or hit by rb). GS/cop are probably going to collectively get at least one hard clear between them, unless scum are REALLY good at choosing their targets, which adds up to half the town mechanically never getting lynched (or an early guilty result)... and that's a pretty solid amount of town power, where I think you really do want to see a good amount of scum power to counter it.

I think this is pretty reasonable actually. If there's an objection to scum power, I GUESS you could turn the 1-shot ninja into a goon or make the roleblocker odd night. I don't think I'd want to see both changes. Part of my headspace is I think cop is a super-powerful role, and given the other town claimable power on the board i do think scum need help to counter it. So I'd approve it as is, or with changing the 1-shot ninja to a goon, or with changing the roleblocker to an odd night rb.

[mhsmith0]

Unless scum rb AND shoot cop and gunsmith night one (and if they do they deserve the great outcome), town is probably going to get an early clear or early guilty, which is then on top of all the claimable stuff. And cop and gunsmith MIGHT somehow both get checks in night one, which is super useful for town.

If town can keep big two PRs alive night one and dodge the Roleblocker and ascetic, they're going to be in a crushing position super early. If scum can wipe PRs early, they'll be in crushing position. Both teams have meaningful weapons, and town has other role clears at the same time. Strikes me as balanced, but I'm willing to nerf scum power a little bit if you guys want.

[mhsmith0]

So the Final Setup is:

3-Shot Gunsmith
Odd-Night Cop
2-Shot Tracker
Miller Doublevoter
VT x 6


Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon

I approve this, pending role pms and final opening post. Skimming op, I think you need to state whether or not scum can kill and act simultaneously, nothing g else aprtuclarly bugged me while skimming.

[mhsmith0]

Myko needs to explicitly weigh in on what he wants to see balance-wise instead of the setup proposed, and mastina needs to explicitly say what her opinion is as well (beyond "it's swingy")

[mhsmith0]

I want the RB to go. I feel it's taking a sledgehammer to not such a solid town.

No.

3-Shot Gunsmith
Odd-Night Cop
2-Shot Tracker
Miller Doublevoter
VT x 6


Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

is something that I would EXPLICITLY reject as unbalanced (town has three claimable roles that are very unlikely to get mislynched, a 4th [tracker] that adds a bit, and on top of that the GS/cop can both get N1 investigative results if scum take a poor N1 shot). If you and mastina prefer that setup, then please find a third reviewer. I'm sorry for possibly being a jerk about it, but I simply don't agree that such a setup is at all fair to the scum team.

I'd MAYBE think about it being ok to cut the tracker entirely and do

3-Shot Gunsmith
Odd-Night Cop
Miller Doublevoter
VT x 7


Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

I'd intuitively be a bit uncomfortable with it, but scum at least does have the ascetic to potentially make people think there's a roleblocker of sorts, which is at least something that might help, so I'd at least be willing to discuss that.

Would be fairly swingy with town power strongly in two slots' hands, but I think that's probably ok given how strong GS/cop can be.

[mhsmith0]

I'll research strong investigative vs basically nothing setups historically but it makes me VERY uncomfortable.

[mhsmith0]

I think I'd compromise on

3-Shot Gunsmith
Odd-Night Cop
Miller Doublevoter
VT x 7

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

MAYBE even nerf to odd-night roleblocker to match the cop. But ascetic alone gives the scum too little night power against what town has (and ascetic is even swingier than roleblocker and involves way more luck and way less actual good play wrt night actions). Personally I think we're giving town too much help even with that, but towns have a losing record in games I've reviewed and I don't mind biasing a bit in the pro-town direction in case my radar is a bit off.

[mhsmith0]

I think scum mainly needs protection against a night one town steamroll (two investigations, and a bad scum shot). Maybe just a one shot Roleblocker and daytalk to go along with the ascetic? I feel like that's going pretty townsided (each town PR is actively useful and clearing as opposed to trash like a one shot rolecop, a fruit vendor, etc etc etc) but I GUESS I can live w that as a compromise.

[mhsmith0]

Ascetic is nearly useless, and is basically a RNG element added to the game (unless scum claim it which actually bizarrely happens). I can live with a two shot Roleblocker and day talk and no ascetic I guess.

[mhsmith0]

Some minor editorial suggestions/changes on OP

(adding "only")
4. Although this is a game about being an asshole, please only be asshole to a certain extent. Do not go too far with your words or I may warn you or even replace you without notice. If you are unsure of what is OK, please PM me first (I'm generally quite tolerant).

(adding "me")
5. Please inform me of any mistakes I make

I'd probably also not be a stickler on the mod color usage (typically it's ok to use it in reads lists and VCA) but that's a me thing and not something that you're bound by.

[mhsmith0]

Could you also post your final role PMs?

[mhsmith0]

Do you guys know what the normal doublevoter function is? Whether they need to be in thread, or via PM, etc?

Also, can scum use PR and shoot simultaneously? Probably worthwhile to make that explicit in role PM for roleblocker as well as in opening post.

Also your scum role PMs should have a link to scum topic.