School Survivor (Game Over, Congrats Hermione!)

[xRECKONERx]

well im in the elusive 3-win club in ms now and that game drained the fuck out of me so im probably done

yall were all good tho

[xRECKONERx]

Thanks guys.

I'm sorry the juries on MS have become more about staking your own claim rather than discussing the win.

I'm sorry many people considered my win boring.

I'm proud of it either way.

This is now at least the second game in a row where toxic specs & juries have made the end feel like a buzzkill.

It's a fucking community problem and if you want this community to thrive you guys need to fucking fix it.

[xRECKONERx]

That being said:

Jess, you were great this game. Really did enjoy our early chats. I think that abusing deadlines is a little shady but that may be because it caused me to have problems IRL and I hated that. I think it should never be a matter of "oh this person has more free time and can sit around and wait for deadline". The purpose of 24h deadlines is to give everyone a chance to participate. I don't think there's an easy way to fix it, but it's just being mentioned now because it was such a really blatant abuse of the deadline system. I understand that makes me an ass because I'm bringing up a problem without any way to fix it. But then again, it's not really my job to do that. I'm sad you played yourself into a corner, that sucked. I personally started trying to solidify other options at the Rizzo vote, and after the Blair vote when you went postal publicly, there was no way to continue to work with you. That really did suck.

Sens, I did enjoy talking to you. I thought you played a decent UTR game that was just so close to being amazing. But it wasn't quite there. I still enjoyed our conversations and you did touch me personally when you talked to me.

@Mods: Thanks for running a game where people were being super salty & awful. I'm sorry it sapped your will to mod because you guys are good mods.

@Specs: I haven't read your shit yet but I can't wait for it!

@Jury: Half of you were great, some of you got bad raps, some of you got the reputation you deserved for being bitchy and hard to deal with. I think maybe we've reached a bad turning point in MS Survivor where juries feel the need to be ~iconic~ rather than spread shit out. yes, juries are going to be emotional. I tend to err on the side of just letting people vent, because it's Survivor and people get emotional. But there used to not be this toxicity after the games. I dunno how much of it is jury versus specs, but yeah.

Anyway, it's been a fucking blast playing with y'all. You can ask Brock, I legitimately got emotional when i found out that I had actually won. It meant something to me. I'm sorry it ended up so toxic. I am. I wish it wasn't. I did love this community and I hope that some time to reconsider perspectives will make me realize why I loved it again.

[xRECKONERx]

CONGRATS RECK ON PLAYING A GREAT GAME AND WINNING!! wooooo!

Thanks Jess! Congrats on being maybe the most dominant new player ever. (Except Snakes, but Snakes has transcended playerhood into divine status)

[xRECKONERx]

Okay, finally had a chance to go through and read the entire spec forum. I skimmed the jury threads but I couldn't read much of them. Here's what I will say now that I've seen everything!

I think spectators tend to be a tad too toxic in shitting on people. You guys have to remember, you have more perspective than anyone else, so it's easier for you to see stuff. It's like how you saw a six person alliance the entire merge but it really wasn't the case. It's like how people thought I was just not willing to work with Dan at all, but I was, he just skeeved me out with the way he was pushing stuff that I disagreed with really hard after every single vote. I think that kind of omniscient knowledge can lead to a lot of toxicity. Players get done with this two month long experience that was exhausting and then they show up in the spec forums and it's all just people relentlessly taking hot fiery shits on them for pages on pages. That alone breeds a draining, negative environment.

The main thing is that spectators want to be entertained and hate seeing boring, obvious things happen. I cannot remember the last time a spectator forum was actually happy with a winner? Or at least someone who got credit for winning instead of being dragged through the mud constantly. I hate to break it to you, but you're playing Survivor/watching Survivor. In these games, people yearning for stability is just what you're going to get. Specs want people to make big moves or big pushes, then once that happens, hate the people who made the big push and want someone else to push them out the door. They want a revolving door of entertainment and that's in conflict with how players play the game. Players want to find stability. It's a paradox: people won't make those big moves spectators want because now the next big move is on them and so on and so forth.

I think a lot of this reluctance is due to how EVERYTHING leaks. That's due to the nature of PMing being the main form of communication in these games. I think what Medevac did with the grouping people off was cool; I'd love to see a way to experiment more with communication styles. Rather than have it be a free-for-all, find some kind of system where open PMing all the time isn't the norm. Limit the # of PMs that can be sent per round or something. Limit the time where PMing is activated. Stuff like this. With less time to talk and firm stuff up & more focus on people knowing "oooh somebody is chatting with someone else alone", blindsides can become more common and people will be more hesitant to leak plans. It would allow for the type of gameplay that specs like to see. But yeah, specs were right. Current site meta is to tell everyone everything because it's better to cover all of your bases.

I really did enjoy this game. Things never got personal for me. I did spin public perception to my advantage after a bit. I did try to butter up Juno so she'd be less likely to stab me. These are all part of the game, no? Even publicly going at Dan didn't feel particularly personal, it was just more public theater for the sake of gameplay. It makes me upset that the mods got upset. I agree with the main critique of my play being that I was paranoid as fuck and nearly shot myself in the foot. It's just the person that I am, mental illness is a hell of a thing. I think I did try to leverage that weakness in PMs to get an advantage, but I might not have displayed that well in my confessional.

Also, other than the Damian pile on and the Juno F5 reactions, I don't think the spec forums were TOO toxic? But I have a threshold for bullshit.

[xRECKONERx]

I mean, people sign up to spec/follow along in mafia games.

And Survivor is literally a spectator sport aka TV show, so it makes sense to see it carry over to here where spectators can interact with the game itself as it unfolds.

But... thinking on it now, deadthreads/spec threads for Mafia tend to also be more toxic/assholish than the game itself w/ the omniscient god complex

I will say I really appreciated Cephrir always playing devil's advocate when people got too toxic or unfair

[xRECKONERx]

Idea that should be shot down immediately: game where the the specs actually can influence the game in some minor capacity like sending cryptic images found on Google Image Search once per round and players know these images are designed to "tell them" something.

[xRECKONERx]

Threatening to quit if Juno won or saying that all jurors who voted for Juno were doing so out of spite or petty or whatever is disrespectful both to Juno and those of us who voted for her. You're allowed to disagree (most people did!), but don't act like someone is a fundamentally bad person for viewing the world through a different lens.

None of this happened.

The issue that was taken, specifically, was I think with how self-centered juries have become, to the point where people will go out of their way to be contrarian.

The meta on Mafiascum grows and changes. We did the pagong phase, and after that got defeated, we had a series of unexpected/unpredictable games with some strong winners.

However, the meta has settled again, it seems. And the new meta is some version of "I don't care that people made moves or whatever, I'm going to be mad that people took risks." That's the biggest problem with the modern meta. People don't want to take risks. And if they do -- and those risks pay off -- they're still lambasted for "taking risks". It means that it enforces this meta where people are scared to be the ringleader, scared to make moves, etc. And then, of course, specs & mods are disappointed when their games are boring and nobody's doing anything. It's a vicious cycle.

In order to break the old boring majority alliance/pagong meta, it took some games designed specifically with the aim of breaking that meta. At the tail end of that meta people were constantly complaining and eyerolling about it. And after that meta kinda broke, we got games like Conclave, DW, NAH, Arkham, PSV, Eon. Good, solid games with good, solid winners.

It's gonna take some doing but I think the main issue now is a compounding of multiple problems.
- F3s have become more common and that means people are reacting to this. In F2 meta, you could take someone else with you who had also fucked people over and force the jury to choose. Now, juries seem to just default to picking the person who was the least controversial in a F3.
- For some reason, the idea of being an iconic juror who really gives it to the finalists has become some kinda goal, even for finalists who weren't bad, making it just toxic.
- Juries for so long have disincentivized risky or aggressive play, and now that's what the meta has reacted to, resulting in fairly meh characters making it far.

I'm sure there are other things to this as well but I think it's worth noting that when metas get stale, we see a droop, and we have to actively work to fix it.

[xRECKONERx]

also i really wanna gloat on ONE THING

hermione wants to come 5th place, dear god. Why does she not understand this game.

If dick goes home here my last move was a very very big mistake. In the end dick going home here hurts hermione too, she just doesn't know it yet because everyone is smart enough to know to tell her what she wants to hear up and until they want to vote her out.

okay that's it

[xRECKONERx]

Those are good points Reck! I hadn't thought about how juries lately have been punishing risky play, although that may be a result of jury members not caring as much and voting for who they like more. Either way, a large part of it is jurors making everything about themselves. I think this could be countered by only allowing each jury member 1-3 questions like we did in RSX.

Yeah, I considered this today. I think limiting FTC speeches to a wordcount and limiting jury questions and responses would be a good start so people dont feel the need to ahve 10 page long bitchfests.

[xRECKONERx]

or maybe even cycling the active juror with predetermined questions that they submit ahead of time.

[xRECKONERx]

We cycle through those metas and views. Like I said, people were tired of the pagonglo meta and that got broken.

[xRECKONERx]

1) Fair enough. But I don't think lying in the background is risky. I think the risk management I'm talking about is "risks you take to get to FTC" not "I got to FTC now I risk losing it". That's the big difference.

2) The specific complaint being discussed re: toxicity is the fact that leaders are scared to do it because those playstyles don't pay off usually, and if they do, they don't payoff well. It's a meta problem, not a specific person problem, which you kinda missed in your response.

3) Agreed.

4) No, disagree. If it suddenly became "I am going to vote for the player who had the hottest avatar", I highly doubt you'd be saying this. Therefore, there is an objective measure between juries voting for who they want vs juries being asstoots.

5) Can you please show me where I said deserve it because I don't see that anywhere.

6) This isn't just about winners, it's about what the referendum on the game as a whole is. And I would argue the problem is that even the ones like Herm & Alexis & Kawazu who won almost DIDN'T win during FTC because of the exact sentiment being discussed.

[xRECKONERx]

Reck, you voted for Shaco. Don't you have some sort of idea why the least controversial/not risky/'nicest' person gets votes? It's certainly not because the jury cares less.
Besides, the winner of this game wasn't that type of player, and DBZA/Medevac happened. Y'all might be overreacting a bit.

(PSV and Eon are terrible examples of pagongs going out of style imo with Bluebell and Reinbow stronk )

Yeah, I did. And I've said publicly my toxicity to the final jurors was bullshit and that, even though I'm glad Shaco won, I hate the fact that he won basically simply because Shaco was less offensive.

Like, I blamed myself partially for the bitter antijury. I think an offensive game is fine.

I think when a large swath of the community says "Hey this isn't just like disagreements this is a big deal" coming in and telling people they're overreacting is pretty fucking insensitive and not constructive at all? We just had the entire modteam of Neds quit the community after this. And the runner up. Let's stop being like "oh well I think I'm technically right so neener-neener" and instead of worrying about being right, start worrying about finding a solution that makes people feel more at ease.

[xRECKONERx]

I'll say that Nexus also made me want to leave. I do tend to get a bit more emotional at times though.

[xRECKONERx]

1) Lying in the background has risks, too. Look at players like Rizz and Steve and Maddie who didn't make it to the end, or the countless other "floaters" or "non-entities" in the game who got picked off pre-merge. There's always risk in not doing everything you can to keep yourself in the game/not making moves. Inaction is still a decision, and one thing Juno articulated reasonably well how she approached that.

2) Can you really say that, though, after how many big moves this game had? How many big moves DBZ had? How many big moves (early) that Nexus had? People aren't actually afraid of making big moves, and not every round has to be a Regina boot.

4) Yeah there's clearly a line. Until someone is saying "pick a number" for realzies (because memeing it the way Kelly did in 2nd chances is lulz), we aren't across it. Like, I'd argue that even Valla's "hot guys pls" question had merit to it in the sense that it was asking the three finalists how well they knew her (granted, through a really bizarre lens but yeah)

5) "even for finalists who weren't bad" is what I'm paraphrasing.

6) For one, Alexis never really got close to losing. For Kawazu, there were clear, identifiable things he did that nearly cost him the game because he was trolling "for the lulz" (and I still contest that the aesthetics of Zeno winning would have been absolutely amazing). Hermione almost didn't win because she lost jury votes at FTC that were up in the air.

But in the end, "almost" doesn't really matter in Survivor. Brian only won 4-3, but he's considered one of the most dominant players of all time.

even for finalists who weren't bad meaning finalists who weren't OTT toxic and awful and deserving of ridicule and scorn

[xRECKONERx]

also bro i know you think you're being helpful but you're sincerely not trying to turn this into yet another argument

[xRECKONERx]

This isn't about turning this into another argument.

This is about diagnosing what the problem is so that we can deal with it the correct way.

This isn't about turning this into another argument.

This is about diagnosing what the problem is so that we can deal with it the correct way.

Okay.

The problem is, at its core, that people who spend months in these games aren't given the due treatment they deserve.

I think it's maybe that F3s are the problem, honestly.
F3s work well on the show but here I think there have been better winners produced by F2s than by F3s.

And I think it's because if you have a grudge against someone or don't like someone, even if you're not trying to give off that vibe, it can be interpreted that way.

Consider this: maybe me, CC, hiplop, and the rest of the specs & jury people who didn't appreciate Juno are wrong, okay. Sure.
The existence of the F3 made it possible to interpret it that way. If it was straight up a F2 between Juno and someone else and those people were wrong, it would be clear.
The fact there's this much controversy over it means, to me, that it wasn't as clear cut as people thought.

Perhaps it's that Dan and I didn't consider that we would split votes like that. If that's the case, maybe people aren't playing around F3s in terms of "who would I split votes with on the jury". Maybe people need to think less about "who can I beat" and instead think about "based on what limited knowledge I have of the jury's bitterness/leanings, who would be less likely to steal votes away from me in a vote?" It's possible. But I don't think introducing complexity is the way to beat that.

Binary choices are good, I think. At least for settling this meta into something more palatable. It's an up and down referendum. People can discuss whether so-and-so would've won against so-and-so, but there's not a chance of vote siphoning. I don't think vote siphoning is bad, but I think if you look at recent F3s, they were the sources of the most controversy, whereas a F2 would've sealed the case and it wouldn't be an argument.

I'm not saying F3s are inherently a bad thing. I'm saying F3s, on Mafiascum, tend to introduce more bullshit.

We have to consider that people are going to be playing for the future here. Voting certain ways, trying to make certain points, etc that carry on to future games.
On the show, that isn't a problem.
Here, it is. And people wanting to make a statement or change future metas or make statements with their votes (which I'm guilty of too) is inherently a negative thing because it means the winner won't ever feel like a TRUE winner or the person who got their vote won't really feel like they deserved it if there was some meta statement behind it.

[xRECKONERx]

Well, glad to know how everyone feels about me I guess (both from here + spec threads).

Don't worry. I won't ruin another game by playing in it.

eyeroll

if you had gone thru with stabbing me or aria at f5/f6 you would've had this game locked up in the fucking bag

it was so close to being astounding

i just happen to think that dan played a fucking great game and that i did too and that it would be a shame for either of us to lose
the games werent perfect
i just thought they were better

[xRECKONERx]

None of that is the impression I got from reading spec threads. Literally none of it.

It's pretty clear people think I ruined the game. That I'm the reason the game was negative in tone. That the fucking board being deleted would be a better result than me winning.

Okay, listen.

Specs get overreactionary.
Mods do too.
Players do too.

Don't take someone's words at their most emotional moment personally. People feed off each other's energy.

I did think you played the worst game out of the F6. BUT you were up against a super tough F6 and then backed down.

When you say you wanted to play a certain game (lay low then backstab) but then do not capitalize on the second part, it hurts your cred. That's all.
Had you flipped on me with Cam/Dan at F6 or gone thru with your Aria vote at F5, nobody would have a single problem with your game, I think.

[xRECKONERx]

I think my biggest problem is everyone taking everything so seriously to the point where it isn't fun at all to be involved in, and makes people feel like shit afterward. That's why I had such a good time with Spookz and RSX, cause no one gave a shit. Like hiplop said, people aren't leaving to send some message, people leave because it stopped being fun.

That's fair, too.

I've long been arguing for the "game is a game" mentality, but I see how that can be problematic too.

But I also think you're shining a dried turd in saying you loved Spookz because you didn't and you bitched on Skype to me about that, too. About how people weren't taking it seriously or trying and that bothered you.

On the one hand: if someone is being sorta emotional, that's part of the game we all play.
On the other hand: if someone is being too extra emotional and is being toxic, that saps the fun for everyone.

There is a middle ground that is hard to define.
I didn't think me jumping on the DAN IS SOOOO MEAN bandwagon would be bad because it helped my game to paint him that way.
After the fact? I see that Dan's perception in the game was a source of stress for you guys, and that makes me sad that I helped fuel that.

[xRECKONERx]

Bro i dont want to play anymore because the meta of the site is rewarding play that is anti risk. Please dont attack me for not wanting to participate in a game i no longer find fun.

This is a far cry from saying "the meta sucks and Juno's near-win proves it"

So, yeah.

can you stop actively being cocky to people who are leaving a community they love because of the toxicity?

it'd really help

[xRECKONERx]

Eventually you'll learn that being right isn't what matters and that finding common ground with people you care about is what matters. one day.

[xRECKONERx]

"Part of being a friend is being willing to call someone on their bullshit"

"Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live."

[xRECKONERx]

I think it is a bit tricky though, because some people have always wanted to play that risk-averse game and do it well. To invalidate it cuts into a big portion of people who are playing that way and, I think, playing the game with a proper sense of laxness that allows it to be fun for them. I feel like I can have a lot more fun if I play UTRish, even if that's not going to net me the win, than to risk and to risk poorly and have the whole game come crashing down around you.

I mean I literally won last time playing the UTR risk averse game so like I get it

but there has to be room for both and ALSO nontoxic juries

[xRECKONERx]

Or in this case not taking a risk was not punished. The core of what was upsetting was that Juno openly decided not to flip, not to make a move, and still nearly won.
Maybe she was even right that doing that would have alienated Aria and Herm and given her no chance at all to win because they'd prefer being upset over the good move?
(I don't think Reck is like that but Aria certainly was.) That is I think the source of spec hatred seeing as most specs were risk taking leader types.

The cartoonish emotional exaggerations that turned the game into an I Hate Dan squad were really uncomfortable to watch.

Reck, you voted for Shaco. Don't you have some sort of idea why the least controversial/not risky/'nicest' person gets votes? It's certainly not because the jury cares less.
Besides, the winner of this game wasn't that type of player, and DBZA/Medevac happened. Y'all might be overreacting a bit.

(PSV and Eon are terrible examples of pagongs going out of style imo with Bluebell and Reinbow stronk )

I think when a large swath of the community says "Hey this isn't just like disagreements this is a big deal" coming in and telling people they're overreacting is pretty fucking insensitive and not constructive at all? We just had the entire modteam of Neds quit the community after this. And the runner up. Let's stop being like "oh well I think I'm technically right so neener-neener" and instead of worrying about being right, start worrying about finding a solution that makes people feel more at ease.

ill keep quoting this until you read it

[xRECKONERx]

the avatar is perfect

[xRECKONERx]

also i really wanna gloat on ONE THING

hermione wants to come 5th place, dear god. Why does she not understand this game.

If dick goes home here my last move was a very very big mistake. In the end dick going home here hurts hermione too, she just doesn't know it yet because everyone is smart enough to know to tell her what she wants to hear up and until they want to vote her out.

okay that's it

reck you are the guy with the big obnoxious truck and I am just walking across the street minding my own business, you honk at me and say something jerkish and drive away with much angst.

its okay because we all know it just means you overcompensating for.... something

im overcompensating for my lack of security in myself

downstairs tho everything is fine

[xRECKONERx]

my cock is 7.5"

[xRECKONERx]

true it's 7 feet five centimeters

[xRECKONERx]

you're so sweet

[xRECKONERx]

altho that's a good point... jury members don't often get the full picture especially since TC questions get ignored all the time on the forums

[xRECKONERx]

yeah that was the argument i made on page like 2 that you responded to sassily

[xRECKONERx]

We need people who aren't me and will modding tbf

you've modded 1.5 games, what are you talking about

[xRECKONERx]

tbh we should move off of zetaboards

[xRECKONERx]

Ideally, custom installs of phpbb hosted on another server?

I would actually love some kind of live chat system

but there's also zetaboards, proboards, ndim, etc

zeta just goes down a lot and is really finicky

[xRECKONERx]

Meh it's also harder to browse back thru PMs and stuff on MS

and we couldn't skin/theme things to fit flavor, etc

[xRECKONERx]

This is why specs need to not talk about things. Because they don't understand what actually happens in the game because they don't see 95% of it

on a giant list of dumb things youve said this is the dumbest

[xRECKONERx]

Because mods should get something out of running a game like insight into wtf is exactly happening

[xRECKONERx]

What you're​ suggesting Zor would be like a mafia game not having the mods be able to read any PTs

[xRECKONERx]

yeah i mean if you feel strongly then go ahead, i'm more concerned with "oh the spectators didn't see what actually happened therefore they should Not" talk anyway because there is actually a cool and exciting way to prevent that called confessionals

And I think given the number of PMs sent that saying confessionals can substitute for "what is going on" is probably naive. It's possible there are a few players who put enough in their confessionals to follow along to a full extent, but the vast majority will not, not matter how much pressure you try to put on them.

i dunno, an update every round going:

"I kinda like X, we talked a lot. I think people are thinking about targeting Y" takes all of 30 seconds

[xRECKONERx]

i think it's also if you see people in the spec forums going WTF THIS PERSON IS DOING WELL!?!?!? WHY UGH I HATE IT it's probs because you didn't give enough in your confessional so you cant be super mad ab that

[xRECKONERx]

i truly have never forgiven mattp for LoL

[xRECKONERx]

so i was the villain

[xRECKONERx]

so i was the antihero

[xRECKONERx]

Villains don't win, antiheroes can.

also counterpoint: parvati

[xRECKONERx]

tbf i dont think ive ever really played a villain. this was as close as i got, i guess.
i want to be the villain but i suck at it

[xRECKONERx]

I think Juno probably gets a growth edit. Going from small and in the shadows to trying to take the game into her own control. More of an emotional arc.
Dan gets the underdog edit I think.

[xRECKONERx]

I think Reck gets a very crafted edit here where the worst parts of his game are attributed to others and he is consistently shown premerge before emerging as a huge player taking out the evil Penny at the merge. Dan's role in that move is probably minimized.

as it should be

[xRECKONERx]

people wanting to quit/wishing others quit, talking about how the game isn't fair over and over is sort of typical "majority alliance you root against". Hermoine would be given the manipulation edit over a bunch of negative people. Pretty damn certain on that. It would be a "battle" final 3, not knowing whos gonna win. Kinda like if Jay made it to the final 3 against david

has there been a "manipulation edit over a bunch of neg" before

[xRECKONERx]

yeah but sandra wasn't really "in charge" ever during that

[xRECKONERx]

ugh dont u dare compare me to sophie

[xRECKONERx]

i mean ok i get the "savior" thing for sure ill take it

[xRECKONERx]

i don't really buy that people shit on aria because she was "unaware"

[xRECKONERx]

she & i had open convos about how we were both big threats so she was aware, she just put in a TON of work to convince juno that wasn't the case

[xRECKONERx]

I don't think giving out PM access is really a thing.

[xRECKONERx]

except that specifically in the past it has been forbidden for people to share PM access because some serious personal shit gets shared sometimes and that makes it a no no to log in to PMs

[xRECKONERx]

people tend to change PWs

anyway uh if anyone thinks im gonna spend the time going through like 10k PMs each game to redact them then lol

[xRECKONERx]

Because like

I dunno

During Hyrule, I would try to log in to inactive players accounts to see if they were PMing

and try to report back to specs on what was going on

and i was blasted out of the water about how it was too personal bc some people didn't want their personal shit being known by other people

[xRECKONERx]

i mean i told a story in this game about how my mom was wanting to buy a house and it was stressing me out because i wasnt sure she was ready for it, etc

it was actually me i was talking about

but then like the whole aria thing where she was super personal? that might be stuff that shouldn't be public idk

i know i also got yelled at for wanting to peek @ PMs between xof/bbm during PSV to see what was happening w/ that drama

but maybe yeah super personal shit is bad

[xRECKONERx]

Just because it's a game doesn't mean that basic aspects of human decency go away.

-broseidon

[xRECKONERx]

It's like I didn't state multiple times that I knew I was being a dick to Tracy and felt that she deserved being called out for her bullshit.

Oh wait I did.

Man I love how we defend passive-aggressive shit on this site so long as nobody is YELLED AT.

Just because it's a game doesn't mean that basic aspects of human decency go away.

[xRECKONERx]

im fine if anyone wants to ever read my PMs because i rarely share real actual shit anyway