Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[farside22]

With a name like Six Aces they are cheating scum.

Vote: Six Aces

[farside22]

I've only played in one game with CKD and the game is still on going so I really cant' talk about it except to say he was lynched and turned out to be scum in the game. Mafia 72.

[farside22]

Unvote

C'mon, there's no point to a random phase when we've got a night's info to work with.

So, from the descriptions, Timmytuttut was killed by the serial killer, and CKD was killed by the Mafia. I think we can presume the SK kill was picked at random, as he has as little info to work with as the town does, but the CKD kill was deliberate -- at least one person in the Mafia has been in games with him and knows his playstyle could be dangerous to the Mafia, especially in an open game.

So, how many players here have played a game with CKD before?

I just can't agree with this. Just because someone played with CKD doesnt' mean they would go after him. Sometimes the first night hit is random. Out of curiousity have you played in a game with CKD before?

[farside22]

Confirm Vote: Jesse Gunn

.

Because...

being extremely analytical on day 1.

...isn't a sign of scum, it's a sign of good play. Being analytical at any stage of the game is a good sign, the earlier the better.

QFT. I liked the break down that justinfairplay gave. It was insightful and useful. FOS'ing someone for being too analytical is scummie.

unvote: Vote: Jesse Gunn

[farside22]

I would like to hear this out and I think Jesse may have just done a newbie mistake.

Unvote:

[farside22]

Ok sorry about the delay. I know you guys are just dieing to hear a response from me, and I would have posted one sooner but it seemed like every time I tried the site was having "technical difficulties."
So Jesse Gun pretty much just claimed cop with a guilty on me if anyone missed that part. But what "gets my goat" is that he claimed with no real reasoning behind it. He was getting a little pressure and it cracked him. (A little pressure normally does not crack a person who knows they are innocent.) And once this crack happened he decided that the only way to save himself from being lynched (which confuses me because in my opinion he was not extremely close to being lynched he was just being questioned) was to claim and along with his claim to choose a target to claim guilty on to hopefully get someone lynched and survive through the day.

My issue with this statement is there is more likely then not at least one cop. I haven't seen anyone attempt a counter claim of any sort. I will grant you he should have played his hand better. If that is your best defense against the claim I'm just not buying it.

vote: Six Aces

[farside22]

Hmm...

Given Farside22's comment and SixAces' response let me state as emphatically as possible that we do not need counterclaims to either of these two claims, and in fact they would be useless, as the first post points out that both these roles could have 0-2 owners.

I agree with that. At this point one of the two of them is lying that I have no doubt about.

[farside22]

Trying to suggest the survival of a cop is scummy when the strong possibility exists of one or more docs- scummy.

"Why are you still alive? Didn't you claim cop? I might have this confused with another game." != "You are scummy because you're still alive and you claimed cop." Kind of a stretch, actually.[/quote]

I'm not sure what you are suggesting. Do you think the scum would target the claimed cop when they think a doc maybe protecting that person?

[farside22]

My point, Shteven, is that you had no reason to be thinking about it. It's possible for a townie to think it, but why would you? It doesn't do us any good to think about, therefore why bother? However, for scum, thinking about whether the cop will be protected is high on the priority list.

What?? Phate brings out the comment asking why is Jesse still alive and I made a comment about why it was possible how is that different then what Shteven point out?

[farside22]

I agree with Volkan that it is important to try to figure out. I believe he's on the town's side, but I understand someone could not. Hence I want this mess cleared up.

This statement comes across as wishy washy. I agree however type excuse is used usually when someone doesn't want to step on people's toes. Call this gut check if you will.

vote: laptopgun

[farside22]

Farside22,

I am curious about this sequence of posts from you late on day one:

My issue with this statement is there is more likely then not at least one cop. I haven't seen anyone attempt a counter claim of any sort. I will grant you he should have played his hand better. If that is your best defense against the claim I'm just not buying it.

The first post states that there may be 0, 1, or 2 cops or doctors. You suggest here that a counter claim to what Jesse Gunn posted would have been a logical step. But with a possible 2 cops in town someone claiming to be cop could have been merely a second cop. This would have had no bearing on Jesse Gunn’s claim. The last sentence in this post almost seems to urge Six Aces to make a claim of his own.

Which Six Aces did, immediately, claiming doc.

I then pointed out that we specifically did not need more claims and within ten minutes you had posted this:

I agree with that. At this point one of the two of them is lying that I have no doubt about.

It seems possible to me that this quick, largely contentless post (because as Fonz pointed out in his next post, of course one of them was lying) was to agree as quickly as possible to the point I had raised to try to cover the fishing/coaching you had done in your previous post.

If you would be so kind could you explain your thinking throughout this sequence?

I usually in other games have stated that a person hasn't had a counter claim (which in retrospect was stupid as there is a possiblity of more then one cop) so therefore Jesse claim seemed valid. When you stated about people not counter claiming I agreed because Six Aces already claimed cop and no other person should claim at that point since one was obviously lying.

[farside22]

Farside, unfortunately I can come across as "wishy washy" as I try to be balanced and open minded in my posts. I'll try to be less open ended.

On the two interpretations debate, "the mafia think" sounds more like a scum rationalizing their thinking while trying to remain seemingly I innocent. There seems to be implied inside info, too. Hence it looks more like an act or perhaps a Freudian slip. The other one sounds more like the person doesnt have inside knowledge and looks less of rationalizing what happen. Or that's how I see it.

The last time I saw someone play that way they turned out to be scum. So trying to be the nice person who see's both side always set's my scum alert on high.

[farside22]

Farside, unfortunately I can come across as "wishy washy" as I try to be balanced and open minded in my posts.

You say this like it is part of your meta...Can you point to any completed town games where you exhibited "wishy-washiness"?

2 games one is still in ongoing and don't believe I can post that. However Newbie 520 the mafia person was killed first night by someone being wishy washy with his comments.

[farside22]

I usually in other games have stated that a person hasn't had a counter claim (which in retrospect was stupid as there is a possiblity of more then one cop) so therefore Jesse claim seemed valid. When you stated about people not counter claiming I agreed because Six Aces already claimed cop and no other person should claim at that point since one was obviously lying.

Even if it wasn't obvious to you that one of them was lying, wouldn't you agree, that any counter claim (assuming it was legit) on Day 1 could ultimately prove disatrous for the town?

@ farside22

I posted this and you kind of zipped past it. Granted it may not have been completely clear that I was asking it of you, so would you mind touching on it now? Thanks.

Sorry about that. Well in this set up yes. In most set ups no. Usually in games I've been in there is only one cop. If someone is stupid enough to counter claim that means that one person is scum and the other is the cop. After six Aces claimed doctor there was no need to counter claim because between Jess and Six someone was obviously lying. Six tried to lie in order to make people wonder about Jess, but he could have done it to try and flush out the real doctor which is why I was quick to agree with Justin on no one else claiming. False claiming hurts scum more in my opinion, I wanted to see if someone would think to take that bait, but once again I forgot there is a possiblity of more then one cop. So yeah I screwed up with that thought.

[farside22]

I usually in other games have stated that a person hasn't had a counter claim (which in retrospect was stupid as there is a possiblity of more then one cop) so therefore Jesse claim seemed valid. When you stated about people not counter claiming I agreed because Six Aces already claimed cop and no other person should claim at that point since one was obviously lying.

Even if it wasn't obvious to you that one of them was lying, wouldn't you agree, that any counter claim (assuming it was legit) on Day 1 could ultimately prove disatrous for the town?

@ farside22

I posted this and you kind of zipped past it. Granted it may not have been completely clear that I was asking it of you, so would you mind touching on it now? Thanks.

Sorry about that. Well in this set up yes. In most set ups no. Usually in games I've been in there is only one cop. If someone is stupid enough to counter claim that means that one person is scum and the other is the cop.

After six Aces claimed doctor there was no need to counter claim because between Jess and Six someone was obviously lying

. Six tried to lie in order to make people wonder about Jess, but he could have done it to try and flush out the real doctor which is why I was quick to agree with Justin on no one else claiming. False claiming hurts scum more in my opinion, I wanted to see if someone would think to take that bait, but once again I forgot there is a possiblity of more then one cop. So yeah I screwed up with that thought.

(Bold in quote above is mine, for clarity)
Prior to Six Aces doc claim there was NO NEED for a cop counterclaim... Even if Jesse were lying about being cop, the town was likely much safer just lynching Six Aces (as opposed to having a real cop come out just to tell us that Jesse was lying). Once again ANY counterclaim by a real cop (whether there's 1 or 2) on Day 1 is likely to end badly for the town at some point.

FoS: Farside 22

In a different game if someone was dumb enough to counter claim with Jesse and we lynch Six aces we would have 2 scum's known. In this game as stated to death at this point I forgot the possiblity of a second cop.

@laptopgun:

Showing examples of your play style does not impress me. At of curiousity however since I'm not big on doing research did any of the ones you link show you as scum?

[farside22]

i hate to ask, but does bringing up past games have any relevance?

It's supposed to make him look less scummie showing his behavior is the same in other games where he was town. Odd that there is no scum behavior or showing off in this case.

[farside22]

It seems this place is a ghost town.

[farside22]

Typically if scum see's there partner is going down they will join the wagon to look town. You can hardly ever tell which person is the scum.

[farside22]

@kabenon007 :

Were you thinking about putting some pressure on Wesaq because of his comments about random vote that wasn't so random. What ever happened with that?

[farside22]

Why do you want to know?

Because we are on day 2 and no one is really saying anything about scum. I've tried to reread stuff, but there is little to go on from day one. That was the only thing that came out so I thought I would ask.

[farside22]

@kabenon007:

You shouldn't drop something is you think someone is scummie. You should push for it and see if the person responds like I did with LapTop. Although I'm not a fan of using past games to say this is how I am and has no scum links showing if he is the same that way too.
Anyways either people listen or they don't, but you shouldn't just drop a case with a non response. You should be more aggressive. I wondered if you dropped it because you may have been trying to buss you partner. It seemed an odd play.

FOS LapTop

(you don't have to be wishy washy if get's you no where)

Unvote: Vote: Kabenon007

I think you have a poor excuse for what you did. I think you can be more agressive so your slack off just rings false to me.

[farside22]

I'm not sure what to think. The game has gone a bit slow at this point and time. I think Justin had some good points, but I'm not as sure as before especially when people vote and just agree with another person so there vote looks good.

Unvote
vote: MelodyMan23

His vote and comment was just a little to sly for my taste.

[farside22]

kabenon007: Contradiction = scum.

FOS: kabenon

[farside22]

Right now reading today I like what MadCrawdad found on space case and his reasoning seems weak.

FOS: Space case

I need to do a reread of yesterday to figure things out, but that is good to have for now

[farside22]

Hmm, good point. I'd be willing to assume he investigated one of phate and farside guilty.

It worth lynching them both (/viging one) of course, pre-set lynches can always be changed ad hoc.

Why would you assume that when he didn't vote for either one of us. He could have steered the conversation towards that person as he did to Kab. He knew how to speak his mind clearly.

[farside22]

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

[farside22]

Those do strike me as hugely different situations, Shteven. Spending all day pushing one lynch in direct opposition to another, then switching to hammer the one

I'm struggling to see a reason why town spacecase would do that, certainly. But then, I can't exactly see it being a rational scumplay either. So it's likely an irrational move either way. I'm trying to get my head around potential motivations.

Scum can be stupid and the switch that spacecase did was really questionable. No answer thus far has been satisfactory.

Vote: Spacecase

[farside22]

This is probably a bit hypocritical on my part, given my lack of posting, but I'm not a fan of lurker lynches, and SpaceCase's wagon is growing really fast. I don't like it.

Note: spacecase has been sitting at 2 votes for a week with no response and the response he did have in regards to his comments were weak.

[farside22]

I just went over spacecase comments more. Here were some things that really stood out.

Spacecase: Post 61 hinting at interrogating veteran players. Post 65 agrees that CKD was deliberate to be taken out night 0. Post 63 says Wesaq confused him. Post 68 votes against Wesaq. Why wait to vote against a person you feel confused about 5 post later? Post 174 expresses doubt in claimed cop Jesse. Other things noted:

Im going to have to agree, lynching Kab would solve nothing and hurt us in the long run. But thats my personal opinion.

vollkan wrote:
Kab has been the best firm lead I have been able to find thus far. I do think he is the scummiest thus far, and that he is a decent lynch.

Is this inferring that we should lynch him and get it over with?

Kab, watch you said is scummy to me becasue you are trying to be "honorable", I guess you could say and just offering yourself up which I'm thinking is a last ditch effort to sway the vote away from you. vote Kabenon007

Confirm vote: Spacecase was posting carefully day 1, but not enough to get ignored. When Justin asked him some questions he only really answered one of the accusations.

[farside22]

Well I'm still thinking Spacecase for a couple of reason. 1) I don't care for his reasoning. 2) when I pointed out my case against him he ignored it and asked about Melody Man instead. Now he seems to think his answer is sufficiate, but a lot of what he says is like he is thinking too hard on what to say.
Now as for who else I feel is scummie I would say Oman just because I've never really seen him agree with people. When he agreed with me about Spacecase not being a quick lynch it surprised me (past games just made me feel like he's using what someone else said to look good). Most of my case is based on gut more then anything I found. But he is someone I have in mind because of some of his actions.

[farside22]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on.

I just went over spacecase comments more. Here were some things that really stood out.

Spacecase: Post 61 hinting at interrogating veteran players. Post 65 agrees that CKD was deliberate to be taken out night 0. Post 63 says Wesaq confused him. Post 68 votes against Wesaq. Why wait to vote against a person you feel confused about 5 post later? Post 174 expresses doubt in claimed cop Jesse. Other things noted:

Im going to have to agree, lynching Kab would solve nothing and hurt us in the long run. But thats my personal opinion.

vollkan wrote:
Kab has been the best firm lead I have been able to find thus far. I do think he is the scummiest thus far, and that he is a decent lynch.

Is this inferring that we should lynch him and get it over with?

Kab, watch you said is scummy to me becasue you are trying to be "honorable", I guess you could say and just offering yourself up which I'm thinking is a last ditch effort to sway the vote away from you. vote Kabenon007

Confirm vote: Spacecase was posting carefully day 1, but not enough to get ignored. When Justin asked him some questions he only really answered one of the accusations.

[farside22]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

[farside22]

No, boredom.

QFT.
I've read through. I stated my second option. I'm not sure what else you want me to say. No one really stands out as scum and at this point I think knowing for sure Spacecases alignment may help out for the next day. I'm sure this will be crap reasoning to some, but look at it this way. If spacecase is scum we should look at who held up the wagon and was trying to get someone else to look scummie. If spacecase is not scum we look at everyone who jumped on the wagon early and easily. Some people may not like my idea, but really where have we really gotten on day 2 thus far that hasn't been said to death?

[farside22]

dahill really screwed up my thought process with that comment. I doubt that is a newbie mistake too. I sense it is someone trying to look town that is scum. I still think spacecase needs to be looked at, however this lastest comment from dahill does not sit well at all.

unvote: vote: dahill

Also noted that he/she replaced Melody Man who I felt suspicious of when he changed his vote and Wesq who was also looking scummie in the beginning.

[farside22]

Hey iamusername. Thanks for replacing me. Sorry about that. When the baby came and life was hectic this was one of those games I just knew I would have trouble keeping up with.