Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[Oman]

Vote: Ryan

Because you quoted you got pissed off and quoted your role PM in Mini 495

Vote Vollkan

Because you were you got scum pm and beat me and were scum and post goodly.

<3!

P.s. Vollkan has no scumtells, kill Vollkan now

[Oman]

Nah, I did that by pm.

OH GOD!

[Oman]

Wesaq, what is weird about that?

[Oman]

Vote: Shteven

because my sister told me too.

Explains so much about you.

[Oman]

I've been in nearly every game with CKD.

CKD needs to die after the Baby Too Much Scum, in which sCumKD endgamed me!

Anyway, the point is that he is a good choice for a nightkill as he is analytical and stuff.

I'm surprised Vollkan wasn't killed as vollkan is CK^2 + Text.

Maybe the scum like text?

[Oman]

I am more inclined to think Timmy is the mafia kill as he is relativly unknown and so wouldn't be good for linking people to it.

[Oman]

No seriously kabenon, it made no sense.

[Oman]

No, but I mean...I don't expect opposite day in votes, and I don't think its my responsibility to figure that shit out.

[Oman]

Okay, I'm back from my holidays guys (I'll change the sig soon )

I missed the whole of D1, but firstly I'm astounded that Jessie claimed D1, and then investigated the townie that died.

Mighty coincidental, I mean, I certainly am not holding the fact that Jessie survived against him/her, as Fonz said , lotsa possible docs here.

FoS: Phate

for that, and

IGMEOY: Jessie

for that conicendence.

FoS Laptop Gun

For somehow getting "SK" out of Phates post, stinks of knowledge.

[Oman]

Vote: Oman because his casual FoS on me smells like swaying with public opinion.

Thats a horrible Day 2 vote.

[Oman]

Well, my belief currently is that vollkan is right, and so is LTG. Basically: We should speculate, by no means give Jessie a free pass, but definatly Keep our eyes on.

I'm going to upgrade my fos to a

Vote Phate

Mostly for his terrible vote on me (no, this is not OMGUS, he voted me for a really poor reason).

[Oman]

Hmm...I think i agree with everyone who has said "Considering why Jessie is alive != scummy. Saying Jessie is scum for being alive = Scummy"

[Oman]

Nope, I've never modded a game which included you LTG.

[Oman]

Yes, there is no universal scumtell, as something which is a scumtell for one person may not be for someone else.

[Oman]

The problem with voting as mafia is 1) it solidifys your position and 2) the bold sticks out.

[Oman]

They should definatly bus their partner UNLESS its late in the game and they have previously displayed doubts about the cop.

I'm more sceptical about a claim if its in the wrong places (like D1) I keep thinking "man, this would make a great scum gambit!"

[Oman]

Justin has convinced me (not to mention that arrogant tone that Kabenon used just cries for one of these).

Vote Kabenon

The Fonz: Are you opposed to me? Earlier I stated a thought on mafia theory and you gave a "please explain" and then you (I suppose Jokingly) did it again. Do you disagree with my point of view or think me scum or something?

I am against the connection between Kabenon and vollkan, I myself have versed Vollkan as scum (he shot himself). And he is a DANGEROUS scum player, not only can he hide well, the sheer weight of his words convinces a lot of players.

[Oman]

I took 40 minutes to make that choice.

[Oman]

Yes, I've chosen to play as Jdodge this game. You like?

No. Jdodge does it but finds scum as town. You're jsut being a pretentious dick.

[Oman]

I think this "I've been sick" thing is really sad. He gets to L-2, calls himself sick (at that time, wow) and then everyone jumps off him. Jesus guys, open your eyes up.

[Oman]

Kabenon is scum, lets all lynch him please.

[Oman]

as Phate put it, "setting it up" for when I am revealed to be townie.

Or avoiding hammering his scumbuddy whilst not tieing himself to you.

[Oman]

Wow.

So thats one cop.

I'm starting to doubt our previous cop's truthery.

I feel like I need to start off with a vote thouhg.

Vote Schteven

Your last post rubs me all the wrong ways. Like if Adel was a stripper.

[Oman]

If Jess was not cop, he would have had to have guessed I was town. I am town, so there is no ploy of one scum buddy trying to help another out.

Umm, If Jess was scum, she'd know you were town or SK (and if you were the SK would you really correct her?)

[Oman]

Hmm, good point. I'd be willing to assume he investigated one of phate and farside guilty.

It worth lynching them both (/viging one) of course, pre-set lynches can always be changed ad hoc.

[Oman]

Oops, I thought it was Jessie not Jesse.

We have a dog at work called Jessie, male, everyone thinks female.

[Oman]

First off, I ask myself "Wouldn't Justin have claimed asap if he had a guilty?"

NO! There was already a claimed cop and no guarentee of a doc. Why would ANOTHER cop claim be benefical when then likely 1 or no docs would have to protect them BOTH.

Jesus Vollkan, you're smarter than that.

[Oman]

It does that he focused on three people like that.

[Oman]

Hmm, okay...

It really gets to me when I'm a cop though and I say "ITS OBVIOUS WHO I INVESTIGATED" in my dead thoughts.

We need to find it.

[Oman]

I don't think hammering that last wagon is a huge scumtell, Kab was crying for it, and he would've been deadlined anyway.

[Oman]

If Cops were assigned dependently, that is, 33% of 0 Cops, 33% of 1 Cop and 33% of 2 Cops, then the chance of there being 2 Cops given the existence of at least 1 is the same as the chance of there being only 1 (50%). 50% is more than 33%.

I assumed the "two Coinflips"

Mod:

Were the role assigned by two seperate flips, or a single 3-outcome flip?

how exactly does this make you doubtful?

I didn't think of it that way, I saw it as two coinflips, in which a second cop is not influenced by the existance of the first cop. (i.e. 1/2 cop 1, 1/2 cop 2. Therefore 1/4 both cops. 1/2 one cop. 1/4 no cops) In which the existance of one cop decreses the chance of there being two cops (sort of).

Why would you assume that when he didn't vote for either one of us.

I did not consider this. /Retract.

It's not only that he hammered, but also the way he did it.

Ah, it just seems like a lot of effort for scum to actually JUMP on a wagon that is already going to deadline lynch. I see what you mean though, its quite a jump.

The important thing here is that the reason he finds for hammering is something very dodgy.

THIS is a good point, he searched for a reason, the guilty mind.

And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch

Now, to me, this just looks newbie. Like he was following the crowd more.

I don't think randomly lynching among people the cop talked about is a good idea, Oman.

His day 2 discussion was on

Phate

[/b], Kab, and farside22.

I'm shocked you take that position.

I fail to see how my thoughts on this are relevant at all to your actions.

Damn I hate to talk before the person has answered. but this actually references a previous point. I think its newbie.


That defence being said: The hammer is damn interesting. I'm going to review this "180".

[Oman]

And adding to my point is (correct me if im wrong) that volkan even said he was a decent lynch

Now, to me, this just looks newbie. Like he was following the crowd more.

[Oman]

If Oman is scum, wouldn't he want to confirm Jess is the cop so he is worth trying to night kill him?

If I was scum, I would NOT want Jesse confirmed because once he IS confirmed, thats it, doc protect forward!

[Oman]

Lynch all Lurkers. Post or Perish.

Unvote Vote Spacecase

Thats almost a week.

[Oman]

Since saturday. Thats 5 days in my book. Oh well.

[Oman]

Yes, I'm not sold on spacecase lynch. But he's lurking fairly heavily when under attack, which IMO is a newbie scum sign (newbie towns tend to cry and pray for life).

[Oman]

taking 4 days off a game just to vote one player doesn't sound efficent.

[Oman]

I'm with farside, its not growing too fast at all.

[Oman]

Oman, I think the issue that folks may have with the wagon's speed, is that 'haste makes waste.'

There is no haste. My point is (as farside put it better) that its not growing at an ecceptional speed.

Where has he not had a chance to defend himself.

While there's a good chance that Spacecase is scum, giving him a chance to defend himself is probably more prudent than just lynching him for lurking.

This looks like scumbuddies to me.

Alignment based FoS: MCD

[Oman]

why wasn't it interesting when you weren't buying it in your response to Shteven?

Two reasons. Vollkan put it better, and by that time he was already lurking.

So, you say multiple times that you believe that SC is just a newb, but then turn around and vote him for lurking?

Since when can newbies not be scum? I felt the reversal was NOT a newbie scumtell, I felt lurking was.

As you've not weighed in on the rest of the case against SC (other than to dispute it) this would lead me to believe that you believe that SC is a lurking townie, right?

Look, town or scum, it doesn't really bother me. I think he is likely to be scum (like I said, newbie town doesn't lurk when under review like this), but either way, he's anti-town. Yes, I am a "lynch all lurkers" and yes if he claimed vig or something I'd unvote him.

Once quite a few other folks were talking about SC's quick 180, however, you figured you'd hop on that wagon.

But not because of what others are doing, because of my own rules.

If anybody looks to be scumbuddies with SC, I'd say you're a pretty good candidate....

I don't understand. On what is essentially a weak wagon, why would I jump on? It would be much easier, as a scumbuddy, to refute this wagon 'till death and use WIFOM to escape. I've done it before...I think.

Oman just pulled a thinly veiled OMGUS. This looks fascinating. FOS Oman

HoS LTG

I think you're scum.

That was obviously a joke. Now, I'm not OMGUSing him. I'm simply saying that last line looks like scum. The thing is, it only holds if Spacecase turns up town, so I promise you, if he comes up town, MCD gets a vote. If he comes up scum...I'll look elsewhere.

his defense of spacecase followed by joining it based on lurking is very suspect.

I'm a fan of the LAL meta.

His quick reversal on Spacecase (innocent newbie -> lurking scum) makes him suspect.

Do I have to say it again....I think I will: I only reversed my postion on him when the situation changed. I also think you should change your diagram (innocent newbie -> lurking newbie).

NEWBIES CAN BE SCUM TOO!! YOUR BIGGEST PROBLEM IS THIS THOUGHT THAT "NEWBIE" ALWAYS MEANS TOWN. NEW PEOPLE CAN BE SCUM ABOUT 1/3 OF THE TIME. RAWRRRRRR!

[Oman]

I know its ongoing, but anyone could find it.

I'm not going to make any mention of alignment except to say: I enjoy lynch all lurkers

[Oman]

Okay look: I do not think that a newbie reversing their position is a scumtell. I do believe a newbie lurking under pressure is a scumtell. I'm not reversing my position on the first scumtell at all.

[Oman]

Elaborate on this please, Oman. Why does it look like scumbuddies?

While there's a good chance that Spacecase is scum,

In case he gets lynched he can't be accused of defending.

giving him a chance to defend himself is probably more prudent than just lynching him for lurking.

Puts forward a strange situation, give the lurker time to defend. He's lurking, which means he's had lots of time to defend, he's choosing not to. So the first sentence is "Oh ya, he's likely scum" the second is "Just give him more time" which is whats getting him lynched in the first place.

Any time I see a sentece contradict itself, it looks like scum.

But that means you're attacking someone for being new, and the chances of them being scum are simply random (1/4 in this case, from initial setup).

Did you even read my damn posts? I was not attacking him for being new, I defended him for being new, as I didn't feel the reversal was a scumtell, then he did what I thought was a scumtell specific to newbies.

you've got Oman voting Spacecase and Shteven

I'm a magic double voter.

Oh and:

[12] The mod is always right. Accept the decisions

I now have two votes.

[Oman]

Ah sorry, misstype. It should be the other way around. I do several things whilst playing mafia.

[Oman]

Well...read my posts.

[Oman]

So what I'm seeing here is that you think that 'SC is scum AND MadCrawdad (who has apparently contradicted himself) is also scum. Since SC AND MadCrawdad are scum, they must be scumbuddies...'

Actually. Its an If...Then... for me. Basically: IF one of you scum, I think the other likely is. IF he is not, then you might not be.

Now, here's your original FoS. You specifically say 'alignment based FoS'. This says something a little different to me than your response to Vollkan. This says 'SC is scum, and MadCrawdad is aligned with SC. Therefore MadCrawdad must be scum also.'

This is the one I mean. You are not scum independently, and my "case" of you is terrible as is. If SC is not scum, we'll I have very little.

On a snap judgement, Oman has a weaker argument than MC.

It is true.

[Oman]

Vollkan's right, seperate night game and day game. A cop is Vanilla+ not a serperate idea.

[Oman]

Meh.

That spacecase post doesn't count as not lurking.


Sorry.

[Oman]

No, Cipher/Jesse never investigated Phate.

[Oman]

Back, anything anyone needs me to comment on. I'll comment on other things that I wish to, but if you want me to do somethign specific, hit me.

[Oman]

Mafia can roleblock in this setup?

[Oman]

@MCD: I know I'm not around as much, but I did state the following that still hasn't been answered or commented on. <snip>

@ farside

Here's a quote where you mention that most of the time, lurkers are scum. As we've got several of them in this game, do you stand by your comment that most lurkers are scum?

P.S. Didn't like the case on melody man day 2, still don't. Seems to basically be "he's lurking". Probably right on that, doesn't sell me as him being scum though.

It was also his lack of reasoning when he voted. Lurkers can sometimes be scum (most times). Depends on the person and if they know how to bluff well in these games.

Pointless comments, wishy washy and contraditory or also how I evaluate scum. Lurkers go on there because it's easy not to say much and vote out town as scum then trying to be involved in the conversation.

Pointless, wishy washy and contradictory are all valid scumtells in most cirumcstances...but lurking? It is easy to lurk and it can help scum, but lurking is not itself

scummy

. Anti-town, sure, but not scummy.

From my latest research, there is no benefit for a town lurking, but that doesn't stop them from doing it.

[Oman]

I'm mildly curious as to why no-one's answered my question about what they think SC's motive to act like that as scum could have been.

Just for me, can you explain what you mean by "act like that"? Do you mean lurking?

[Oman]

Wagon slowing.

Makes me wonder.

I might unvote.

[Oman]

No, boredom.

[Oman]

LTG, why do you believe the claim?

Do you believe him to be town independent of the townie claim?

[Oman]

[Oman]

I've been tossing up the cases. I don't want to post some half-baked idea.

I think the spacecase wagon had scum on it. And I'm not entirely happy with Phate right now, but I'd still be fine with lynching Spacecase.

[Oman]

I've been tossing up the cases. I don't want to post some half-baked idea.

Excuse my incredulity, but how is that not lurking? Following the thread, but not posting, lest your ideas be flawed? Doesn't even a 'half-baked' idea give other players some insight into your thought process?[/qute]

How ironic.

[Oman]

the slowing wagon makes him think that Spacecase is town and so he might unvote. But he never comes out and says this.

Meh. I assumed you guys were smart enough to realise that I don't really unvote people I think are scum.

[Oman]

SO you read the bit where Cipher is the cop right?

Anyway, good to see you in game again.

[Oman]

I'd like a response from Rigel.

LML: While others may find what you are saying fairly obvious, I am not sure what you're getting at with the "protection" thing. Yes, it's odd he'd say it practically out of the blue. Are you saying that's why it's scummy, that someone who's on the town would never react like that? Is the idea he'd say that to try to draw attention away from a scum buddy?

Fairly simple.

Someone completely over-reacted when a different person had one vote levied on them. Overreaction is a keen way to find scum, since they are tenser (they have something to hide.)

I think Rigel is a completely viable look right now.

NO HE ISN'T!

(Irony)

Anyway

Vote Rigel

and

FoS: Phate

for doing the same thing "I don't think he is scum, but lets lynch him anyway" = Scummy!

[Oman]

The implication of this last post is that you no longer believe spacecase is scum, yes?

The implication of the last post IS that I no longer consider spacecase scum. However, if Rigel shows up town, I will probably have to re-consider. (although Rigelscum = spacecase town Rigeltown != spacescum or spacetown).

I'll have to revisit, but right now I think that Rigelscum trying to get Spacetown lynched is more likely than Rigeltown trying to get SpaceScum lynched (but not beacuse he's scummy).

In short: YARLY!

[Oman]

Now, this is pretty simple: Town wins when all scum are snorting cocaine with Heath Ledger. (BEST WIN CONDITION EVER! )

...Whoa? Too Soon?

[Oman]

I was ridiculing Steve Irwin on the very afternoon of his death (...and nearly got beaten up for doing so)

Sames, my own mother was out for my blood.

[Oman]

SK is inv. immune in this setup.

[Oman]

I also do not know, Rigel, if you thought I was some newbie who could be railroaded. Holy cow. Exactly the opposite. Ask Oman.

True dat. This guy will eat your balls.

[Oman]

I haven't really been reading Rigel heavily. I'm on my mobile so I won't be reading. if anyone doesn't mind showing me why they think he is town/scum, I would love to read it over the next few days.

[Oman]

Yo shit, this game is still on. Sorry guys, getting to it now.

[Oman]

Damn I keep forgetting about this.

Are there any specific questions that require answering? By me of course.

[Oman]

Hye guys. So this is over. I'm really sorry, I don';t know what caused this game to get lost in my mind. It occured during my slump, which is now over, which hurt my contriubution.

Yes, CKD, I said kill you!

And good work to everyone in this game, you all played well. Nice endgame though.