Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[LaptopGun]

vote: Jesse Gunn

The name is too similar to mine and I can't have people confusing us. Must be from an alternate universe or something.

Tin Vision, I like the story and description. Sounds like a great town...

[LaptopGun]

haha OF, I am not sucking up to the mod. I just like his writing.

Anyway couple things.
1.I have been in one game with CKD. I was a townie and he was protown in open 50. Ill check it and post my thoughts
2. This random name changing is pretty stupid. Yeah he shouldnt have been all I'm clever- but I'm not buying why he got votes for it. Anyone care to explain as its looking like making a mountain of an anthill, or trying to set up a little pretext of a lynch.
3. You're right shteven. There have been a lot of double votes. However imnot concerned unless it goes to triples as you said.

[LaptopGun]

ok in open 50 CKD was the Vig. He had a nightkillofone of the mafia randomly. He said after the game was abandoned that he learned it was not always a good idea that the Vig kill N0. If I learned anything, I'd say one or more of our mafia are refugees of that game and didn't want to deal with the possibility that he was vig again- long odds but he was lucky and was a pretty smart player.

[LaptopGun]

Yeah Fonz I probably over thought that one. I guess I didn't take the idear into account and it indeed merits discussion as it appears it has. So there wasn't some grand conspiracy of ex-open 50 members to NK CKD. Certainly he'd be someone who is a pretty good player, perhaps even an asset to the town. But the other point, that a little newbie research would result in the same result of NK'ing him, is pretty damn good. And then there is the simple "it WAS random" and I was wrong and overthinking things.

Speaking of newbies...

Oh great role claim hilarity, or rather the possiblity of it on day 1. I agree the argument is pretty bleeping weak, but in the name of due dilligence I'd like to hear what Six Aces has to say. I will say that Jesse Gunn is really giving off mixed signals here and I'd like to evaluate Six Aces before I make up my mind on it. I've found that I as someone lacking experience can behave in the same manner. That fear of getting yourself lynched is always "fun" to deal with.

I'm gonna

unvote

Jesse Gunn, to that effect.

A a parting thought, I still have a hard time swallowing the Wesaq argument. It seems to be overblown, but I just don't know.

[LaptopGun]

I have to agree with justin. It is more likely my opposite number screwedup but is telling the truth. Six aces, I find your doc claim to be false. I've seen gunn's demeanor and I've seen yours and I find his consistent with scared Newbie. I just don't buy your role claim.

vote six aces

[LaptopGun]

Strangely appropriate avatar, Peers.

Anyhow I will agree that we went fast with Aces, but due to the actions of our apparently newbie power role we had to. I hate it. But I think Aces is mafia, and his defense however trunkated was not particuarly brilliant. The only thing that makes sense is that... Well that or the mafia fanned the thing. Its also possible one or two dumped Aces for jsut bad luck getting caught and are willing to make the trade 1 mafia for a cop.

I sincerely hope we have a doc or two... and one better not have just had a noose put around his neck (I don't believe so, but I'll achknowledge the possibility).

[LaptopGun]

Phate how do you know Ryan was killed by the SK?

Anyhow I think the mafia have decided a confirmed, or so I believe, townie of jessie's ability is less of a danger than one of the two who was offed last night. I'm gonna have to reveal some posts, and I suggest others do the same, to see if either said anything potentially dangerous to the mafia or SK. It is potentially damaging that Jessie is still alive without a doc protect, but I find it totally reasonable that the mafia attempted to confuse the town. We now have the possibility that Jessie is scum instead of having a confirmed townie. He did reveal a Mafia though, so unless he turned on his scum buddy (which I just don't see- Day 1 under no real pressure) I have a hard time believing it. Or he's the SK and got extremely lucky he hit scum on Day 1 in a blind guess. Or Jessie is such a criminal genius he is going to out the other mafia as if he were the cop and hope to survive alone until the end of the game. Not that those last two are ridiculous or anything

I don't like outing the cop esp. on Day 2 with 3 mafia left and no guarantee of a doc, but Jessie you do need to tell us who you investigated. I want this mafia ploy over and done with so we can focus on other suspects.

Oh and if it's not obvious: If we have 1 or more doctors please do not out yourself or selves. The town doesn't need another power role in jeopardy.

[LaptopGun]

sorry about that. I thought you were abbriviating "killer" to mean Serial Killer. I wasn't even thinkinglike you were that it was a generic catch all for whichever nightkill. My bad.

[LaptopGun]

I agree with Volkan that it is important to try to figure out. I believe he's on the town's side, but I understand someone could not. Hence I want this mess cleared up.

[LaptopGun]

Farside, unfortunately I can come across as "wishy washy" as I try to be balanced and open minded in my posts. I'll try to be less open ended.

On the two interpretations debate, "the mafia think" sounds more like a scum rationalizing their thinking while trying to remain seemingly I innocent. There seems to be implied inside info, too. Hence it looks more like an act or perhaps a Freudian slip. The other one sounds more like the person doesnt have inside knowledge and looks less of rationalizing what happen. Or that's how I see it.

[LaptopGun]

I've only been in a handful of games there were a couple newbie games last summer which appear to have been deleted. I was in one or two with Fonz and SSF, so they can talk about that. Oman may have modded one of them, I'm not sure. The one "real" game I've been in was Open 50 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6384) which got abandoned after almost 1/2 a year of activity/inactivity punctuated with some modkill hilarity. Several memebers of this game are refugees of that. Let's say things are better in this one.

Mod if I'm not suppose to reference abandoned games even though all the participates have moved on to other games, please delete the link. I'm sorry if that's the case.

[LaptopGun]

Thanks for clearing that up, Oman. And thanks Shteven , I didn't know if I was doing something that was as

verboten

as posting a role pm.

So yeah, there's my attempt to document my playstyle. It took more posts than I really wanted to, but I'd rather have my facts straight.

[LaptopGun]

haha yeah. That one was great because the 2 mafia just sat back and then hammered me when I was down to one vote. Part of the problem was I really didn't answer enough stuff. Hopefully I can use such lessons to play better and actually help the town.

@farside I have not been mafia. I've been mislynched and night killed, but I've never been scum. There has been cases where I've looked scummy, of course, much to my displeasure.

@Spacecase, I'll give you a short rundown. In theory it shows how players acted in one game. If they are acting differently, it may reveal that they have a different role. What that means eactly can be highly subjective and open to interpretation. I believe, while by no means a smoking gun, can be valid evidence and has its uses. I suspect the mafia could also use it to their advantage, as in they use it to railroad someone. Or perhaps distract from other salient issues.

[LaptopGun]

Myself, Phate, Shteven, and Oman all appear to have one vote each but I could have missed some, I did a very quick scan.

If posting from a Wii is anything like posting from an iPod Touch, I feel for you buddy.

While we're waiting for an official vote count, I'd like to figure out a few things from the vote of ysterday. I have something I'd like to address about the voting yesterday that I just figured out. Intially I thought, unless my count was inncorrect, that players piled on after Six Aces already had enough votes to be lynched. This was Shteven and SSF. Would anyone find it below the mafia to pile on after a scum buddy's fate has already been sealed in order to blend in with the town? I thought so. However, I was wrong. I thought Peers had hammered Six Aces and I made a comment about his advatar being appropriate. I was mistaken, as everyone knows that Peers voted for Jess. Oops. SO Shteven cast the deciding vote, hence my count is wrong int that regard. That does leave SSF casting a meaningless 11th vote, but it's within a reasonable time of Shteven's post. More importantly, he could have miscounted like I did. So that leaves me in the same place I was talking baout scumtells and metadefenses.

[LaptopGun]

It was noticeabl enough for me. Then again, as I said, it could mean nothing. SSF has been pretty much protown vibe (granted the game has moved alarmingly quick so the body of posts for everyone is pretty low). Shteven seems to be the same way. Sorry for bringing weird things to attention.

[LaptopGun]

I can't make up my mind. I can't figure out if this is goon natured scum hunting or rampant role fishing.

Well welcome to the game Rigel. I addressed the language thing in 143

sorry about that. I thought you were abbriviating "killer" to mean Serial Killer. I wasn't even thinkinglike you were that it was a generic catch all for whichever nightkill. My bad.

I also have speculated on this freudian slip thing, but that had petered out, up until recent developments .

Fonz we played twice before, did I miss count with you too? The first time was a newbie game. You led a crusade against a female player on Day one who turned out town. I had decided that the mafia had stoked this, which one did (as it turned ou). On Day 2 both mafia attempted to get you lynched, I defended you with the argument that your behavoir was so scummy that no scum would try it. No person would be so bold. I then almost got one of the mafia lynched, who I had suspected was, but unfortunately I went a little funny in the head and changed my vote. Which means I bought a role claim defense and went after a scummy looking town person (I think it was ChronX). The mafia of TooMuchPete (or whoever replaced him) and aquia night killed me then later ended up winning the game. The seond time we played was you getting replaced into the old New C9.

[LaptopGun]

@kabenon007:

Anyways either people listen or they don't, but you shouldn't just drop a case with a non response. You should be more aggressive. I wondered if you dropped it because you may have been trying to buss you partner. It seemed an odd play.

FOS LapTop

(you don't have to be wishy .

I just noticed another FOS so I thought I'd address that. I don't attempt to be wishy-washy, it just happens that way. There are also those cases when I try not to step on toes and that ends up robbing me of clarity. I try not to get all hellfire and brimstone until I vote and/or am convinced someone is scummy.

And while I have it quoted, I might as well try to come up with a possible explanation for kabeon's dropping of the wasq thing. I hardly see it as an attempt to bus a partner (hypothetically). Perhaps, and if kabeon wants to he can address this, he was saving the discrepency until he felt he could use or need it. Kind of like an ace in the hole if wasq came back and subsequently acted scummy.

Anyhow I have something else to talk about:
@ Justin, I need a bit of clarification from you. I found your analysis of kabenon reasonable and certainly needs addressing. However I find it's at odds with what you told him previously in post 162 (fyi page 7). You talk about his suspicions of Shteven and specifically talk about the logic of the hypotetical freudian slip. I do not mean to suggest that this is bad analysis. What I want to know is, why does this not appear on your subsequent post explaining a whole host of new problems with kabenon? It seems you relegated it to a throwaway line about k's attacks on shteven. I would think that that only helps your case even more that kabeon never responded to you directly. He attempted to clarify it to others (such as Fonz, Vokan, and Farside when they questioned him) but you have not followed that line of questioning your self. Are you saying that as you put it "Quick thoughts" have been surpassed?

Relevent posts quoted below:

Quick thoughts:

Kabenon,

I understand what you’re going for with Shteven, but the problem here is two-fold. First, to have real meaning the kind of slip you’re suggesting here would either have to be part of a pattern of behavior or be far more blatant in thinking of a situation from a scum perspective. Second, in and of itself, Shteven’s statement doesn’t approach the issue from the perspective you’re suggesting it does. I mean, from any reasonable examination of the situation it would seem most likely that Jesse Gunn would have been doctor protected last night.

Given that Shteven, even if he were scum, could not know that Jesse Gunn was protected last night if as scum he killed another target, and given that it would seem a logical assumption for town or scum that Jesse Gunn would be protected for anyone playing regardless of alignment, why would you consider what Shteven said to be particularly indicative of a scummy slip?

I was a bit curious about Vollkan’s vote on Kabenon. Having reread the thread to check on Vollkan I find myself now a bit more curious about Kabenon.

Kabenon,

The fact that you have made the following two posts so early in our proceedings is of interest to me:

A word of warning Phate, vollkan always gives off town vibes...

And then later, giving an example:

I agree that a particular scumtell, or even town tell, cannot be placed on everyone. Take vollkan for instance. His large posts, contentful, appear pro-town. But he also does them when he is scum. I want to wait for a recent vote count before I vote, mostly because I don't have time to check myself. (I'm lazy and busy, sue me!)

All right, so you have warned us twice that Vollkan may be scum however town he may seem. Do you have any reasons for suspecting Vollkan beyond his usually seeming town that would warrant two warnings about him in the first nine pages?

So I guess I have two questions about this.

Who are you waiting on a vote count to vote on? You’ve already voted Shteven, making a rather persistent case against him. Is it Vollkan, which might be suggested by the linkage in the above post, or someone else?

Does your above statement about waiting to vote mean that you no longer believe the vote you already have on Shteven is appropriate?

This post bothers me some:

Just expressing my opinion, Shteven. That way, when people ask what it was, I can go back and point to a specific spot and say, Look there it is! Instead of saying "Well, judging from how I worded this post, I felt XXX." Much more concrete, more helpful to the town.

First, because the post you made which you are referring to here is this:

I think we should keep the idea that Jesse might be scum in the back of our minds, just as a last thought kind of thing. We can scum hunt without worrying about it too much. If we can't figure it out, we can always go back and examine him thoroughly later.

If you could please explain both how saying that Jesse might be scum or he might not but we can find out later is “concrete”, and how it is “helpful to town”. I understand how it might later be useful to you.

Finally there is this, in response to Farside22 asking you about your suspicions of Wesaq:

Why do you want to know?

While it is perfectly appropriate to ask the question you are asking in return, it would also have been appropriate to answer Farside22’s question. In this case it actually would provide something “Much more concrete, more helpful to the town”.

Why did you choose not to answer Farside22’s question?

Anyway, thank you for any answers provided. For now:

Vote: Kabenon007

[LaptopGun]

Shteven I didn't want to bring it up until Justin returned and answered my question, but it's what I've been noticing. Justin hasn't acted like himaself since he "pressured" our resident cop to reveal a scum (and by result himself as cop). I don't know what's up but I miss his posts. He really does a great job with things... but that's the problem. I imagine h'd be a wicked good mafia goon.

[LaptopGun]

Hey Justin. I thank you for getting back to me and addressing my concerns. I hope I can answer what you asked. Moreover, I'm gonna have to put my cards on the table I don't like the polarization of this thread. It seems the

1. Contradicts seems not to be the best word choice. It is not an out and out 180; I see it as an inconsistancy in your questioning. What I was trying to get across was that it would have made more sense if you continued with the issues you brought up. You are a logical person and enjoy using it, so there seemed to be a classic oppertunity for you.

2. You seem to be better than most posters at phrasing things. I don't mean to take anything away from my fellow posters, but there I said it. You tend to be excellent at it. You commenting other's posts is pretty good, even if it's just echoing it.

3. I think some of the other posters have been persecuting him. You don't seem to be, but then agin you are letting others speak.

4.The evolution thing can reveal major differences. I wouldn't rely on it unless it seemed key evidence, but I by no means dismiss it out of hands.

5. Ok there's a 1000 pound elephant in the room and I can't avoid it anymore. I do not like letting a small cadre of other posters explain what you said or want to continue to say. There is a really large anti-kabeon sentiment right now. You may not be the spearhead, but it really gained momentum when you first questioned him. I have to decide if the mafia are trying to wagon him. However I have to wonder if they benefited from your always piecing analysis or if you deliberately set this up. Yes I am trying to add things up. Both have some evidence backing them up.

And then there is the third possibility, that I'm completely wrong. No mafia are in on it and I'm slowing up the lynching of scum. I don't know how this would play out. Here's a freebie- your reactions to my questioning look genuinely townie. I never said Kabeon007 seemed innocent to me. He's a suspect. I need to question him and I need to get to it. I talk too much, I post too much. But I want to be heard. I don't go quietly into the night.

[LaptopGun]

I was going to ask kabenon why he seemed really irritable with everyone, whether they were calling for his head or simply trying to get a staright answer out of him. Well...

kabenon: "I've been feeling sick"

I guess that explains it. So you've been sick so you've had a short fuse. All right, I'd probably believe it more if you had said it before but I'll buy it. That doesn't excuse everything, but Ill keep it in mind.

[LaptopGun]

[quote="Justin Playfair"
Well, my quick thoughts were expressed. But certainly I am more suspicious of Kabenon007 for the behavior I pointed out in my later post than I am for the poor accusation of Shteven.[/quote]

I just saw this and this was a type of answer I was looking for originally from you. Thanks, and sorry I didn't see it when I saw your post. Does not change what I said; it is something I consider in my course of action.

[LaptopGun]

kabenon, you definately said he was acting differently in the game you played him with. Please explain how this would not mean he's town. If you are going after other games, please sat what happen in other games.

I want to believe you, but this isn't adding up.

[LaptopGun]

Let's hold on for a second and let kabenon007 build his answer. However I warn you kabenon, you are starting to sound like Roger Clemens.

[LaptopGun]

I should just hammer him and end this day, but strangely I believe he's a townie. However, Kabeon your actions were completely inexcuasable today. You weren't very difficult to set up for a wagon and for that it's no surprise. I don't belive anyone else is going to believe you're townie and unvote, so the town is now gonna be down another townie. Is there anything else you want to share about volkan before someone hammers you? Any other pearls of wisdom?

This also doesn't mean the real Roger Clemens is innocent, either.

[LaptopGun]

Haha. No you aren't pissing me off.

Here's my reasons not voting. I don't mean to go off on Justin here, but I can't seperate my musings about his behavior from how this day has gone and the case against kabeon.
1. I still don't trust Justin. It's a shame as when I am sure he's town (like the previous game) it's great to hear what he says. I just can't shake this idea that he's mafia and letting other players do his talking for him so he doesn't come off as scummy. This is not enough for me to vote him or even disregard his logic, but it's really effecting how I view it.
2. It seems possible Kabeon got wagoned with Justin poping in to fuel it.
3. The fact that there hasn't been a lynch yet really tells me that he's town. As others have said, it's so long and drawn out that no one wants to touch it. The mafia "failed" here in that, if this is indeed a mafia prodded wagon, because the town should have just jumped on.
4. If kab is town, then good call on a role claim without powers. I think most of us woud laugh if you had claimed cop or doc. If he's scum, well, damn. I fell for the role claim.
5. Kab, if you are town, be glad I didn't hammer you and you still get time to talk. Yep it could be my out clause if I were scum and Kab was town. But guess what, I'm town and I didn't feel comfortable voting with a wagon that I feel was dubious at best.

Thanks, Oman, I'll keep that in mine if I ever get the chance to be scum in a game. I'm town, so that doesn't do me a lot of good for ou game.

[LaptopGun]

I will attempt to address the latest questions.

This what I get for opening my mouth in order to try to allay my fears that Kab was a townie. I can't say I've helped my own case, but I'm sticking to my guns. I don't like the wagon, it's inevitible that someone will hammer him, and I have doubts about his guilt. Yes a lot of them boil back down to just how the votes stacked up. But I think it's reasonable.

My belief Justin has been running the wagon is two fold, neither of which is very strong on its own. First I believed Justin had exibited an inconsitency. He answered trying to say it was both he didn't want to beat a dead horse and he was letting other people explore his earlier point. I characterized it as letting others talk for him. Second, Justin's tone seemed to have changed after he and Jess Gun got into a real spat. Remember the great line "Is there something you'd like to tell us?" in response to Jess Guns's hilarious reveal as the cop. I agreed with the case Justin put together, but that could have just as easily been bussing his scum buddy. Re-reading his posts, I noticed he mentioned the possibility of bussing a couple times in there. Perhaps a Freudian slip (what number would that be in this one and this will be another player accused of making one)? And then I've talked about it alot. None of my reasons are particuarly good. Far fetched, I know. Notice I'm not voting for the "bogey man" (as Justin elloquently put it), as I'm unsettled by his play. , but It's what is in my mind.

On the other hand Justin has down decidedly pro-town things. Who knows (well besides Justin and TinVision).

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP and in the interest of comedy

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get me.

[LaptopGun]

Well that's it by my count... I'm dying to know if he was telling the truth. I think he was town, but I like I said I could have bought his role claim.

[LaptopGun]

Oh. Crap. Well I was wrong again and went after a power role (see our previous abandoned thread for that hilarity).

The Kab lynch was the only thing really worth doing as much as I hated it, but I still think it was fanned by the mafia.

Thanks Jess for confirming me in the eyes of our townies, but I think at least Oman is starting to grumble why you are still alive. Maybe this will help. I'm curious why there was only one night kill. This is going to start the inevitable "someone didnt submit a night kill" vs Doc protect. I want no role claim if there is a doc, but I think we have a doc and he protected JessGunn again. Of course I could be wrong...

I see four options, some of which support the idea he's a cop and some others neutral:
1. Doc protected Jesse Gunn who had been targeted/
2. Doc protected JG who was not targeted.
3. Doc protected someone else and Jess Gunn just happens to not have been targeted.
4. One of the night killers didn't submit a kill.

Obviously 1-3 assume the mafia and SK targeted two different people.

[LaptopGun]

ADBOW If Jess was not cop, he would have had to have guessed I was town. I am town, so there is no ploy of one scum buddy trying to help another out.

[LaptopGun]

* That should read ABWOP. I cant type

[LaptopGun]

Umm, yeah Oman. Your right. That possibility completely slipped my mind so I guess that needs to be edited in. I never thought of it because I am not the SK, and I dont think Jess Gunn is either. Sorry I keep calling her a man as well.

I have to agree with Rigel for one very key reason: I completely forgot Melody Man was part of this game and who he replaced was. I knew nothing about him so I re-read, but I still dont know much. I will caution that it is by no means a smoking gun, but I think MM owes us an explanation.

I did a review on who Justin put heat on. This is not an exhaustive list, and it's brief cuz I need to get back to a term paper. Please see for yourselves and tell me where my interprtation is weak or wrong, because this was done on the quick.

SSF (random vote), MadCrawdad for that name fiasco, Wesaq for more naming hyjinx, Spacecase in an apparent hypocracy with the CDK night kill, Peers for a ton of issues Justin saw in 2 posts, Six Aces (who got lynched as Mafia), <night> phate for apparent role fishing and bad numbers, Kab (ended up getting lynched) , farside for far too quick answers and really begging for more role claims, me for considering him the boogie man, and Shteven for thinking he was scum.

Three things jump out at me:
1. He really didnt like people asking about power roles. Har-har. But seriously, whenever he felt someone was speculating far too much or potentially role fishing, he called them on it. You could have your the mafia's reason for killing right here.
2. He did not like people calling him scum. Hmmm, I wonder why? Stupid me. Shteven is also in this catagory and had similar, if less grandiose than me, concerns .
3. Kab, Phate, and Farside where the people he questioned after the night. Potentially he night investigated one of the three. Since he stuck on Kab and he's been a confirmed townie (if a dead one), I don't think he investigated him. Mind you, I don't even know if immediately questioned has any correlation to night investigation.

[LaptopGun]

Ooops, sorry again Jesse. I'm just completely discombobulated.

[LaptopGun]

Ok I'll bite. Spacecase is acting bizareluy and I don't like it; however, Volkan and Oman are making me nervous with this tunnelvision on Spacecase. Not necessarily scummy, but isn't that how Kab got lynched?

[LaptopGun]

This sort of goes along with my last post. I believe Oman is town because he is trying to work out all of these statistical probability. I do not believe the mafia would "waste" as much space going into them. I find it interesting, but I have never been interested in math and statistics so I'm reallly just going on the conclusions . On a hypothetical level, it could be scummy if Oman is trying to confirm Jess as a cop in order to night lynch him. That would mean Jess is mafia, though (could be SK as pointed out before). Or Oman and Jess are both scum partners and trying to put up a facade of scrutiny. This again seems dangerous of getting one or both caught. I dont find it likely even if I dont have fancy statistics to back me up .

All right, unless I see something something scummy subsequen to this, Oman looks like town.

[LaptopGun]

Wow, I had a brain cramp. The sentence "That would mean Jess is mafia, though (could be SK as pointed out before). " should read "That would mean

Oman

is mafia, though (could be SK as pointed out before)."

On a purely speculative note, I would find it hilarious if Jess was not a cop but a vanilla townie and just guessed right Six Aces was scum. That is what we call suicidal behavior for the town, as he could just be relying on guesses. Odds of this happening: not bloody likely (thank God).

[LaptopGun]

1. Fair enough. I gave a reason why I think it's fine. You disagree. Why dont you take the next step and talk with Oman about it. I said what I had to say and I admited I'm lazy when it comes to statistics. If Oman were to do something crazy, I'd by all means mention it.
2. I should have said night kill instead. Sorry I was just completely stupid when typing.
3. If Oman is scum, wouldn't he want to confirm Jess is the cop so he is worth trying to night kill him? If he's not, the scum would want to know if there is another resason worth lynching him for (ie serial killer).

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP the other guys posted when I was trying to post. Fine, you want to go elsewhere. So you want to start a spacecase wagon? I've tried to talk about other people, but I keep comming back to it because nobody else is really striking.

So who are other good suspects. I say Spacecase and the people Justin in thoery could have investigated, but lets here what you guys have to say.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP
Good thinking Fonz. I'm gonna stop this cop discussion unless someone else really wants to pursue this.

[LaptopGun]

I will agree with volkan. If he is a newbie, I dont see a lot to gain by piling a bunch of votes on Spacecase. I hope it doesn't scare him off. I see nothing scummy presing him, I will just caution that I would prefer to not scare him off and need to integrate another replacement into the game. Of coure it's just as likely he isn't comming back and really his replacement will have the lovely task of trying to convince everyone he is town. Argh. This game makes my head hurt.

[LaptopGun]

Welcome dahill1. I wish this could be a better greeting, but I have to call you into question.

FOS dahill1

This is for after he gets back, but I

intend

to vote dahill1. I refuse to vote until he is actually back, but when he is back and does not resolve these issues to my satisfaction, I will vote him. Dahi1l jumped into the game and saw fit to attack the player most of us think is the cop (I'm not going to rehash the argument earlier). He may have made a noobie mistake; however he then turns around and FOS than votes spacecase. Quick change of thought+ quick accusation+ quick unexplained vote does niot look good by itself. Both his posts angainst Jess and spacecase together look like a very inexperianced scum more than an inexperianced townie. I agree with what has been said. This looks like a case that mafia want to push the stalled spacecase wagon, because that right now is the case with the most traction. I will also point out that Melodyman left without explaining himself and his few moves were not exactly pro town either. Admitedly he probably wouldn't know what Melody Man was thinking, but he should try to explain what his behavior was. A townie should be able to do that much at least.

I hate to push a player who has just joined, but this course of action has the potential to reveal a scum and/or bring new dialog on spacecase. Space case is also the next person I'd like to hear from- he needs to explain himself. That looks like a better option than screaming someone is scummy because they aren't posting until we are all blue in the face.

[LaptopGun]

Dahil answered half of it to me and part of the other half to someone else, so I'm gonna hold off. Oman just pulled a thinly veiled OMGUS. This looks fascinating.

FOS Oman

[LaptopGun]

Haha. So Oman and MC are going at it. Guess that mean they arent scum buddies .

On a snap judgement, Oman has a weaker argument than MC.

FOS Oman

I'm having a hard time following your logic.

[LaptopGun]

I don't know about your first idea. Hopefully someone else has an opinion on that.

The other thing that I'm thinking is that we've probably got a doctor protecting me, so I won't give out innocent results in the thread any more unless the doctor dies or the player I investigated is in danger of being lynched. I figure that the less the scum know about who's confirmed town the better.

I think this is a better idea. The mafia have me as a confirmed townie already and that could make me a target. I say, at this point, don't give them more ammo unless something comes up (like a wagon that's getting out of hand). Obviously, if you find a scum you can come out and tell us as it's not like you're keeping a secret.

[LaptopGun]

Also, everyone seems to have given dahill a pass on the basis of his response. I'm not sure, if the initial thing was really worth attacking, then his response was adequate. And LTG's attack on dahill's entrance was uncharacteristically forceful, to then drop it pretty much immediately... something's odd there. Not necessarily scummy-odd, but I'm not sure of the rationale.

Not much more to go on right now. He answered a lot about what I had (major) issues with and this Oman/MC fight is just fascinating right now. You can believe I haven't forgotten dahil1, though.

[LaptopGun]

I don't think Cipher has had a chance to investigate yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but investigations are only at night and cipher just replaced Jess "today" (as in game time).

[LaptopGun]

That is true and could very well be true for phate as well.
but for right now i want to focus the attention on spacecase, so we can see what happens after he's lynched (if he is)

I agree with your sentiments about it being true for Phate. However, being a tad presumptious about Spacecase, aren't we? (You do add an important disclaimer, given that barely half the needed votes are on him. But notice the difference in effects by putting important things in parentheses. My post goes from an out and out accusation on you to understanding I am taking you out of context. I'll get to this in a second).

I must point out that this thinking is one of the reasons the Kab lynch became inevitable. And we all know how that turned out. A lot of people thought that way. Hell I did. I am concerned that the mafia latch onto one central premis or mistake in a player, then attack him until they are blue in the face. I think the latest one is the flip flop of SC and "newbie mistakes." I'm gonna do a cross reference of who keeps making the same arguments aginst SC as they did Kab and has now been against Oman and apparently dahil (that one includes me). I will not be on tomorrow, but I have a pretty good idea who this turns out to be.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP I didnt really explain my first point. The "in a second" stuff is this. Mafia gradually advance a wagon by insuating somthing Stuff added as after thoughts prove more damaging to the person under scrutiny. The mafia person is not connected to it because it wasn't their main argument. Someone like me picks up on it and plays off of it- they get the blame for attacking an innocent. The original main argument becomes something all together different by the use of parentheses or side thought or whatever.

[LaptopGun]

I'm back. Sadly my re-read and analysis really only told me that everyone who's posted in this thread has looked scummy at various points . What a great use of time... Oh boy. Moreover my original boogey man theory still looks possible (so maybe the same mafia forces are at work), but my prime suspect Justin turned out to be cop. So it isn't possible.

My time was spent well in other things, just not looking this stuff over.

[LaptopGun]

Cipher, in many cases people can do that. Doesn't matter whther they are town or scum. THe player doesn't want to look scummy, so they try to make it ok by saying "Yeah in many cases this is a scum move, but see I know it is so I'm being reasonable here. Don't call me on it." Or something like that. Of course, notice I don't say it's worthless. Catching a player in one could be a potential scumtell; unfortunately it's just as easy to catch a power role in one.

You brought up a very interesting case. I think it was a good idea to; moreover, you are not sticking with the flow of the wagons... er events

[LaptopGun]

@Fonz I am more inclined to believe that Spacecase is town based on 2 things, neither of which are particuarly strong. I think the stupidity factor seems to say stupid town than stupid mafia. This is admitedly speculation, but I would have thought that scum partners would defend him by now. Additionally, today's wagon bears an awfully strange resemblance to the one on Kab, and we know how that one turned out. Like I said, this is by no means great reasons, but it's enough so I'm not voting him.

@Shteven I'm thinking a third option. Some mafia are on the wagon, but not all. They want to have townies provide the last few votes so they look scummy. They then can use some of the same arguments against Spacecase on the voter(s).

[LaptopGun]

@ Fonz I believe Space case is stupid townie for two admitedly weak reasons. First if he was scum I would have expected there to have been some sort of defense from his scum buddies earlier in the day. There really has been zilch on that (granted my point is highly speculative). Second, this wagon bears an awfully accurate resemblance to the one that got Kab lynched. And we all know how that one turned out.

@Shteven My 3rd option is this. Some mafia are on the current wagon, but not all. They are hanging back for one or more townies to finish off spacecase. The mafia can then use some of the same arguments used against Spacecase to go after the voter(s). That's my 2 idea, anyway.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP Ok the site is all screwed up. I wrote the top post out, clicked post, and got an error message (something about not being able to post so soon after my most recent post). When I clicked back my analysis was gone. I rewrote it and posted that. Now I see I've made both posts were registered. I have no clue what's going on, but sorry for the redundancy.

[LaptopGun]

FOS Phate. I'd like to hear more from him. This also so goes back to something we talked about a *long time ago* . Phate was one of the 3 Justin talked about. I think I'm gonna run down the list on that before I worry about other things.

[LaptopGun]

I believe Spacecase's claim. So sue me.

I really dont know what else to do here. I'm gonna vote phate as it's the only scum like thing I have going here. I got a lot of gut feelings and question marks, but nothing else concrete. Maybe voting him will bring him back, though I'm doubting it. I know SC has been lurking too, but at least he bothers to show up.

vote: phate

[LaptopGun]

I believe the wagon was run by the mafia. Mafia tend to want to mislynch town and/or non-mafia scum. He claimed town, not something we can disprove like doc or cop (haha on the later one). I am not comfortable with the wagon. It seems the best argument for it, before it stalled, was there are so many votes on him it will happen. Yes I know he acted scum on plenty occasions (and that's a problem). Problem is so did our dearly departed friend Kab. I wonder how much stuff was blown out of proportion in the name of scum hunting or scum doing what they do best.

[LaptopGun]

Do you believe him to be town independent of the townie claim?

I thought it was a very real possibility before he claimed. It is consitent my expectation that the mafia attempted to get him mislynched. I guess my beliefs dont depend on the claim, but they are re-enforced by it.

[LaptopGun]

I'm sorry to get presumptious with you being busy. I some how managed to not to realize. I know how it feels to have a billion things going on and this game having like no priority.

dahill, your entire reason for suspecting me (without voting me, just gauging the waters) is that other people are on the wagon? You don't even take the time to find and echo their reasons, you just say 'good enough for them, good enough for me?'

That was an incredibly scummy post.

Certainly true. He did it before, hell he's done similar stuff to others. I haven't really made up my mind either way about him. I'd liek to hear his response. I happen to like his reason, though let me point out there is not confirm that phate has been investigated. Cipher obviously hasnt and it's only a possibility (ok one of my pet theories) that Justin investigated him and thus wanted to draw attention to Phate (or the other people he talked about, or I'm just plain wrong. I've said this. It's just the best thing I got).

[LaptopGun]

This looks strangely familiar. I am fascinated by how quickly several people jumped on dahil1. Remember I was all for lynching dahil so don't bother claiming we're working together and everyone was like, lets deal with SC even though dahil exihibited what I considered more scummy behavior. So dahil1 is now the flavor of the minute. I dont like seeing that guys, it's almost like you guys were psychic... or working together. Sure exaserbated townies wanting a lynch could do that. Exaserbated mafia looking for a lynch could do it too. Tell me I'm crazy or looking for the boogieman again.

Fonz, yep you're right I could turn up Godfather or Serial Killer. I am neither. I doubt I need to say this, but I am not mafia either. I am 100% vanillia townie. You've spent the last day impeaching my credibility. Did you speak up when I was questioning cipher's/Jess's credibility? I don't believe so. I understand you want a lynch of someone real bad, but you might want to chill out as we could just as easily lynch a townie. And you wouldn't want that, would you?

[LaptopGun]

Correction. I thought volkan had voted and Fonz had switched his vote to dahil as well. I should say "2 people jumped on Dahil" with volkan apparently considering it and Fonz still not liking me. My bad.

[LaptopGun]

Sorry for just getting the number of times you refuted me wrong, but I still think you are twisting everything because you desperately wanted to lynch spacecase.

I've said my role before, I've done it in my other games, I habitually do it. Sorry if it bugs you now.

[LaptopGun]

I've been town in those games.

[LaptopGun]

A good chunk of the blame belongs to me for bothering to try to refute everything Fonz.

And yes Fonz I wrote it as town=townie.

[LaptopGun]

Welcome to the game LML.

Rigel, I had the same reaction when Kab claimed. I wasn't sure he was town and thought it very well could have been scummy, but I thought it was more likely we had a mislynch on our hands. Which ialso s how I thought the SC wagon was going.

[LaptopGun]

I'd like a response from Rigel.

LML: While others may find what you are saying fairly obvious, I am not sure what you're getting at with the "protection" thing. Yes, it's odd he'd say it practically out of the blue. Are you saying that's why it's scummy, that someone who's on the town would never react like that? Is the idea he'd say that to try to draw attention away from a scum buddy?

[LaptopGun]

THis is looking really weird. Frankly, it looks like Volkan is acting by himself and wants Rigel lynched, Fonz and MCD really want people to vote Shteven, Fonz really wants SC dead already before we do anything else, and dahil is like "dont forget about phate" then shteven doesnt look good. I am not liking that we are suddenly all divided (granted I think the previous consenus is a townie).

@Rigel: Why have you been trying to avoid MCD's questions? I think they have been reasonable.

In a futile attempt to add my 2 and 1/2 cents to the inquiry into Shteven: Shteeven also had weird reactions about Justin, similar to what I had. He had a somewhat less strong reaction to what I felt was scummy behavior on Justin's part. I think only one or two people commented on it, and were generally more concerned with people like kab at the time. I have no clue whatsoever that says about, but it's just a little thing I thought of which also doesnt quite make sense.

[LaptopGun]

The hypothetical phate-farside connection could also be legit as well. What the hell, I'm all confused.

[LaptopGun]

I thought we had a little longer than a week on the deadline. Oops.

Anyway, for the sake of due dilligence, I'll play devil's advocate on the phate wagon. I'm really hoping Phate is scum. That said, however, if he is town it would be an awfully good way for the scum to discredit cipher and/or myself. Having a cop lead a mislynch is by no means a rare occurence, but it leaves a big opening to attack them. We have discussed it before, but I will repeat it. I would not just agree with cipher and myself just because it seems likely we are town. Whatever. I'm still confident he is scum. I hope we've had an oppertunity to go over anything.

Re-reading this, it does not sound scummy to me. But for the record I am neither trying to set up a potential out card for myself if Phate comes up town nor am I trying to defend a potential scum buddy (in either cipher or phate). I am trying to make sure I and others don't charge blindly into a bad situation.

[LaptopGun]

Well... just great. I'm gonna think it over. However I will say it is one of the most thorough doc claims I've seen.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP You really didnt need to claim it, I severely doubt we were gonna get many more votes on you.

[LaptopGun]

Fonz, sorry, but you seemed to agree with MCD and calling out Shteven. You called him a liar and there aren't many pro town power rolls left that he could be "hiding." Assuming you're town, that means that you think Shteven is guilty of something anti town. Obviously you would prefer to focus on SC, no argument there, but you wouldn't mind a wagon on SHteven. Or that's how I read the whole thing. Or did I misread you?

So my first post implied I read it. I later explicitly stated I didn't give it the attention it deserved. That seems pretty clear that I'm claiming I didn't give it enough thought. You should be suspicious of me because I posted too quickly without considering it. But you can't say that because of the initial post that I clearly read the post carefully when I've flat out stated that I didn't.

Yes, because we absolutely have to believe you when you say you didn't read it properly, right? Oh, wait. I think it's quite obvious MCD is suggesting that you are, in fact, lying.

I do find it very hard to believe that you said 'how can anyone not want to lynch SC having read Rigel's post?' if you yourself hadn't really read it. That statement implies that you felt Rigel's post contained compelling reasons for voting spacecase. Why would you say that if you hadn't properly read it?

That said, shouldn't we be voting a player who has: <obvious references to spacecase>

[LaptopGun]

On a re-read, it looks like you agree it's possible he's lying or he did something wrong. A little different than I first thought. I think I'm reading your posts too quickly.

[LaptopGun]

No, Rigel, you answered what I was looking for there. I got something else minor for you, but that will come later. I'm on my iPod touch and that has no copy paste cut functions. Cutting down massive quotes isn't exactly easy so ill deal with it when I got a real computer.

[LaptopGun]

Sorry for not getting back to you Rigel.

The fact of the matter is, Shteven, whether or not you actually agreed with my point, you clearly read it, because you were much too specific to have done otherwise. You've been caught in your lie by multiple people, so there's no point in trying to weasel out of it. Now, whether your play is scummy because you're scum or in spite of the fact that you're town is something that I haven't quite determined.
...
All in all, not much has changed. I'd really appreciate it if SC would show up, but I'm not holding my breath. However, I will say that, barring a Spacecase lynch, my second choice would be Shteven. However, in a choice between the two, it's got to be Spacecase.

Two things. First I believe that SHteven was desperately looking for any help to get SC lynched and thought your post was some great ammo. Afterall, he had someone who he thought agreed with him. I dont know what that says about him, like you said, but it does not look good that he's attempted to dodge it. Especially in my eyes as I believe SC is town. Why would someone be dead set to lynch a town (devil's advocate: how would Shteven or anyone else know SC is town). Second so you've got a player in an apparently compromising position and yet think SC is scummier? If so, fair enough but then again I'm no fan of the SC wagon so I shouldn't judge.

[LaptopGun]

LaptopGun, is there any particular reason that you're still voting for a claimed doctor?

Hi. Welcome to our lovely little deadline pressure cooker. Anyhow, I'm leaving my vote where it is for the moment as I haven't made up my mind. I'm not particuarly believing the claim. I'm stuck between what I think and what could be. If I was particuarly suspicious of someone else I'd change.

[LaptopGun]

Do I really need to say I'm town and I'm not the godfather? Again? For the upteenth time? And I aint no doctor either.

Also, LML that's rolefishing right there. Blatant rolefishing. I'm not going to get into WIFOM arguments with you, but suffice to say I fail to see what pro-town goal you hope to accomplish.

[LaptopGun]

unvote

No offense Fonz, but I don't like the Spacewagon. My #1 and #2 suspects are on it, Phate and Rigel. And I have no clue about Shteven. Yep I am convinced they are scum and I dont see their vote on SC as a bus the scum buddy. SC could be the serial killer. SC could be town. I'm not liking the odds there. For these reason I should vote Rigel in order to tie the votes.

I announce my intention to vote Rigel or Spacecase

The problem is I feel that such a long day would be an utter waste if this does turn out to be a stalemate. I want a lynch as much as everyone does. My vote would probably be the defacto hammer on Spacecase and I'm sure everyone will call me scum for it if SC turns out town, like I think he will be. So what does everyone else think is productive- probably force a stalemate or probably sanction SC's lynch?

[LaptopGun]

Vote Rigel

I think the case on him is better. And nobody really responded to what I was asking.

[LaptopGun]

I know I just voted, but I can't stall things. More recent events make Rigel look scumier. SC has been the chronic lurker eevrywhere, and when he's been here he's acted worse than Rigel. I better be wrong that scum have driven this wagon.

unvote

Vote Spacecase

SC better not come up town. This wagon is awfully close to Kab's.

*Prepares for people to call me a vote switcher and scum*

[LaptopGun]

MCD, your vote is on Shteven and we can all agree he isn't going to be lynched today
who do you think is more likely to be scum, SC or Rigel?

Fair enough case. However, it almost reads like one scum buddy to change his vote. That just sounds... odd.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP You guys are basically gonna force the supposed cop to break the deadlock. This sounds like a great way to set up a case against him if the person he votes for comes up town.

[LaptopGun]

That's either an honorable move or another odd move on your part MCD.

[LaptopGun]

Please claim the innocent person, Cipher. All the info we have is better at this point.

It should be straight forward finding the other mafia members. Pretty much who stalled the first attempt on him no looks awfully suspicious, such as dahil. SC comming up scum also seems to clear Rigel of being mafia.

I can't believe we had masons and MC was one of them. |Though the standard point of irony of this thread seems to be carried out: I'm having an easy time finding our power roles but not the mafia or SK.

I severely doubt we have another doctor, though if we did that would almost make the game unwinable for the mafia. It would also require me not to think they are scummy, as I've found practically all of our confirmed dead power roles scummy at some point in this thread .

[LaptopGun]

dahill: Ahhh, you sure looked like you were pushing for a lynch of phate. I dont see that as scummy. You don't have to justify that to me, as I understood some of what you said. Thing is no you are comming off like you want to play revisionist history with your posts.

iamausername: I am not sure if I am reading what you want me to get out of on your last two quotes you pulled. It almost looks like he'd like either of those lynches. It sounds like he doesn't care who he wants dead, which is odd as I'd think the mafia would like the godfather, however inept, to stay alive as long as possible. I know the accusation has been thrown around a lot, but do you think that means hes the serial killer? Cause that's what I'm thinking right now with those two quotes.

[LaptopGun]

Just my memory here, but was there not a big discussion about Wesag before day 1 ended? And then no one picked it up on day 2?

[LaptopGun]

cipher's plan is not bad but that of course requires one or both of the killing factions. I'd be hesitant to give both of them another confirmed townie just because they may not follow it. I am seeing a real trend to get the mason to claim and I'm not sure how to read it.

[LaptopGun]

The site has eaten 2 of my posts, so I'm trying to retype these from memory. I am annoyed to say the least. Sorry if it's terse. (origignally 893 then I tried retyping it for 95. Once it posted like normal. Last one was just lost server connect).

1. My meta read on Fonz is inconclusive. He's acted the same he he's acted when he was town and mafia. It depends on the situation whether he's been looking scummy or not.
2. This popped into my head. Someone had a beef with Volkan way back in time. I can't find it. Poster claimed his behavior is very insideous and he's good looking town when he's mafia. This is perhaps early rumblings that someone though he was not pro town or one of the antitown roles trying to stirr things up.

[LaptopGun]

While I dont have as much problem with armix's posts as shteven, I did manage to read and breeze right by his mentioning iamausername. Odd tossing him in there.

[LaptopGun]

You and the other people investigating Oman do bring up a lot of new and "old but people let it drop" info about. Oman has acted really inconsitantly: with fluff posts, fluff posts masquarading as critical commentary, and the afterformentioned wanting things both ways.

Five straight filler posts have the alarm bells ringing.

I am against the connection between Kabenon and vollkan, I myself have versed Vollkan as scum (he shot himself). And he is a DANGEROUS scum player, not only can he hide well, the sheer weight of his words convinces a lot of players.

This somewhat gives me the impression of trying to convince an SK to off vollkan. Makes Oman more likely to be scum in my eyes, and less likely to be SK, fwiw. In fact, that entire post is horrible. Votes Kab based on someone else's reasoning, gets arsey with me asking him to explain what he meant in a previous post i found confusing, and then says the bit above.

.

This is what I was looking for earlier. I have not seen anything overtly anti-town from Volkan. I think your interpretation of begging an SK kill is very plausible.

Looking at our two prime suspects at this juncture, Oman has a longer history of strange crap. Dahil has had some crazy behavior, but he has shown a willingness to address things. I raised my questions aft the time and he answered them seemingly truthfully. I dont trust him completely, but he seems to at least not tried to skate through the times and discussions when he's been here.

[LaptopGun]

dcorbe welcome to this game and sorry you got stuck here

Armix is looking awfuly overzealous to get a claim and lynch out of this. This could be nothing, yet I am concerned one anti-town role has found the other. As we discussed before, lynching the scum role has the dual effect of looking good in the town's eyes and removing a road block to their victory condition. Nonetheless, dcorbe is sounding like someone who has a role besides non-vanilia townie. Probability is telling me anti-town, but that's given the numbers. There's a small number of pro town roles he could have at this point, assuming we have a sane mod running the show . But seriously, the numbers of availble roles are pointing towards mafia or serial killer.

I intially wondered why no one else has chimed in here. I am not comfortable with one player interrogating another without another opinion on things. Baring the possibility armix is also scum, which I dont know and I'm not saying, I think we got a scum here. I just dont want to pass judgement immediately on anyone based on half a page of interrogation and looking back at Oman's tortured history.

Then I saw that the real debate between the two has only been going on for an hour or two. I thought this had been going on since my last check in Thursday afternoon (the vote count was the last thing up). Not a brief spat. Maybe there is nothing to my worries.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP dcorbe posted while I was writing mine. Let He finally claimed town, which he probably should have did if he was town when it was obvious armix was not going to rest. He explicitly said he was not a mafia goon. He of course said nothing about the serial killer. Armix's "breadcrumming" of accusations seemed to suggest he thought dcorbe was one of the mafia. If dcorbe was responding directly to armix, I can sort of buy the obmission of not mentioning the other antitown role out there. I kinda think at this point though that claims have to say both because it's not hard to confuse the two.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP If it's not obvious, I am highly skeptical of dcorbe's claim.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP means add by way of the post. Basically you want to add something to the post you litearrly just made. It's good when you notice you forgot to say something or had a lightbulb go off in your head about what you just said

[LaptopGun]

I am not getting beleagured townie vibes out of dcorbe. His latest one, the no one has defended me at all, sounds more like the serial killer trying to grasp any straw to not get lynched.

For what its worth, my meta read of LML was someone who seemed incredibly scummy when he was town. In my only other game with him: he pushed for two quick lynches, sniped at people, ignored basic reason, and then disappeared for most of the game. He was a vanillia townie. I say this just to illustrate that LML was a "bad" townie before, so using LML's scum behabvior against dcorbe is not exactly a compelling case (at least for me).

The thing is, dcorbe reacted badly to the accusations. Something is up with dcorbe and his predecessors.

[LaptopGun]

Thanks for pointing it out iamausername. I completely mixed up who's been replaced and who replaced who.

I stand by what I said about LML. It is of course not applicable to our arguement.

[LaptopGun]

Claim now, dcrobe.

Shteven brings up an interesting point about who is on dcorbe's wagon, but it is not exactly clear cut. This is the vote count for day 2. Compare Kab's wagon to the wagon on dcorbe. Notice anything:
kabenon007 - 8 (vollkan, Justin Playfair, Oman, MelodyMan23, MadCrawdad, somestrangeflea, Jesse Gunn, Spacecase)
MelodyMan23 - 3 (Rigel, Phate, farside22)
Rigel - 1 (kabenon007)
Phate- 1 (Shteven)

Not voting - 2 (LaptopGun, The Fonz) (Fonz had voted for Kab after he got hammered).

A wagon may look scum driven even when power-role townies are on it.

[LaptopGun]

I am not surprised dcorbe was the right lynch

I like Volkan's lie/play/gambit because I really wanted the SK found out. Besides the obvious clearing of my name, I would have liked the idea of going after the mafia assuming the SK would cooperate.

My list of Probable townies: Volkan, armix, Rigel (these should be obvious)
Neutral: iamausername
Currently neutral but my gut feelings require me to qualify my selection: Shteven
Decent suspects: Fonz, dahill1

iamausername: Seems genuine, but cavalier attitude. Sticks to the facts. I know nothing else unfotunately, the vote record doesn't tell me a whole lot either. The bigest pro town indicator I see is that when he says something, it is almost always important to the situation. In other words, I don't see deception. There's a pro town vibes here, with a few question marks.

Shteven has largely been largely pro town since day 2. However, I can't get over how he readily agreed with my boogey man claims on Justin. I also cant get over that Justin then turned up dead. This is utterly a gut feeling here, and it contradicts how I view the rest of his actions. He was right on my argument on the similarities on the wagon, which is to say there were not really anything like I thought.

Fonz: He doesn't match up to my previous experiences with him. His play is all over the place, as I said before. I'm getting mixed indicators from both his town and mafia play, which makes me think he's the SK

dahil: What haven't I said already? Latest actions on the surface could be seen as pro town- pointing out that (correctly) that dcorbe was a lying mafia. On the other hand, he could have just been bussing a scum partner who he felt was too suspcious to try to save.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP

When I say "He was right on my argument on the similarities on the wagon," I was talking about the Kab wagon to the dcorbe one. In my last post I saw somethings that looked familiar in and he critqued it that they probably werent.

[LaptopGun]

Wow, I'm having a bad week.

As far as armix goes, I dont think the mafia or the sk would really push for the lynch of a suspect like he did. Also a mafia/sk would not have put up with. No disrespect ot you iamausername, but I feel he was the one who really pushed the lynch of dcorbe. He was in early enough where it doesn't look like bussing a partner.

[LaptopGun]

I am going on vacation. I am going to have very spotty and erratic internet connection over the next week so you may not hear from me.

I'd vote for dahil or Fonz but I dont want to vote then disappear. That could leave the wagon open to be hijacked.

[LaptopGun]

Oh well. I figured I would still be around (or have a more memorable death). Maybe I should be glad I'm not in this situation. Good luck town, the game looks awfully different when you're not part of it.

[LaptopGun]

damn. Nice job fonz. Wish I had thought more about you. Btw did both you and armix think I was yiour respective enemy?

[LaptopGun]

Yeah I got to hand it to you Fonz. I was so confused by you I was convinced you were the SK or a very unfriendly townie.

I have three regrets: I should have pushed Fonz more (even if I thought he was SK), I should have called out armx far more for going after oman/dcrobe in a (in hindsight) self-serving manner, and I should never have opened my mouth about Justinplayfair

If and when I get to play as an SK, there are somethings I wont do learning from armix et al. Likewise I have a better idea how to play a convincing mafia.

[LaptopGun]

I believe you made the right call on the self vote. I will say, however, that if I was in your shoes I seriously doubt I'd have the stones to do it. I would not have the confidence in myself to be right about it, let alone have the necessary skill to convince people I'm right.