School Survivor (Game Over, Congrats Hermione!)


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Post Post #28 (isolation #0) » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:29 am

Post by zoraster »

btw, comments to the contrary, I was not unaware of the potential idol effect, but I also wanted Dan to be forced to use it.
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Post Post #30 (isolation #1) » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:45 am

Post by zoraster »

yo
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Post Post #34 (isolation #2) » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:02 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 33, xRECKONERx wrote:think a lot of this reluctance is due to how EVERYTHING leaks. That's due to the nature of PMing being the main form of communication in these games. I think what Medevac did with the grouping people off was cool; I'd love to see a way to experiment more with communication styles. Rather than have it be a free-for-all, find some kind of system where open PMing all the time isn't the norm. Limit the # of PMs that can be sent per round or something. Limit the time where PMing is activated. Stuff like this. With less time to talk and firm stuff up & more focus on people knowing "oooh somebody is chatting with someone else alone", blindsides can become more common and people will be more hesitant to leak plans. It would allow for the type of gameplay that specs like to see. But yeah, specs were right. Current site meta is to tell everyone everything because it's better to cover all of your bases.
This is actually the basis behind my Aristocratic Ladies of the English Countryside game.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #3) » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:02 am

Post by zoraster »

I find spectators to be the weirdest part of the survivor experience, for what it's worth.
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Post Post #38 (isolation #4) » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:22 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 36, xRECKONERx wrote:I mean, people sign up to spec/follow along in mafia games.

And Survivor is literally a spectator sport aka TV show, so it makes sense to see it carry over to here where spectators can interact with the game itself as it unfolds.

But... thinking on it now, deadthreads/spec threads for Mafia tend to also be more toxic/assholish than the game itself w/ the omniscient god complex

I will say I really appreciated Cephrir always playing devil's advocate when people got too toxic or unfair
yeah they do, but they generally can't talk to the players in the game. And even though most spectators are pretty careful not to say anything that would give much away, there's always the possibility and even when nothing has been said it's hard not to read into what's been said to you by a spectator.

Anyway, I'm not saying that specs shouldn't be allowed or anything. Just that they're one of the weirder parts of the game as someone who hasn't played many of these.
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Post Post #180 (isolation #5) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:05 pm

Post by zoraster »

Is there a better alternative? If and when we get alt-masking up some games could theoretically be run on site, but mostly mods seem to need the customizability.
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Post Post #188 (isolation #6) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:16 pm

Post by zoraster »

I mean the goal is to reduce the burden of setting up forums, ideally. But there's no reason why zetaboards have to be used if a moderator can set up their own system.
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Post Post #189 (isolation #7) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:17 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 187, Vijarada wrote:Playing here wouldn't work because there are like six site mods and an admin who play. Also, confessionals?
Only the admins can see private topics they aren't in, and I can easily set it up to block mods either generally or on an individual basis if one is playing.
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Post Post #191 (isolation #8) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:19 pm

Post by zoraster »

The biggest obstacle is anonymity, but PM space is definitely an issue. The best games suited for the site are probably non-anonymous games as PMs aren't used as much for that (correct me if I'm wrong), we don't have anonymity problems with alts and such, etc.

The problem is that forum creation would almost entirely rest on my head. And I'm willing to work with a mod for a yearly non-anonymous game to set that sort of stuff up, but I'm unlikely to want to do that much work on a regular basis for a game I'm not running.
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Post Post #194 (isolation #9) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:22 pm

Post by zoraster »

I could also give people playing in a survivor game access to a larger PM library, fwiw.
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Post Post #197 (isolation #10) » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:25 pm

Post by zoraster »

yeah. i mean, i'd love to get at least a little activity on site so that people could at least see past games, which can pique interest and so forth, but it does pose some serious constraints.
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Post Post #231 (isolation #11) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:08 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 227, Drench wrote:maybs specs would understand more if y'all used your confessionals huh
The fact that spectators think I, as a player, should use my confessional is laughable to me. I've never played a game to be entertaining to those
watching
me play.
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Post Post #242 (isolation #12) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:25 am

Post by zoraster »

#1 I did make posts in my confessional: http://s15.zetaboards.com/School_Surviv ... 0106408/1/

They were largely nonsense, but I made them.

#2 Despite what you said, there is ONLY one reason to post in a confessional and that's to entertain. I guess there's also the "journaling" mentality, but you could easily do that in a word document or whatever.
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Post Post #243 (isolation #13) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:26 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 241, Drench wrote:i mean whatever it's up to the individual players choice, and not everyone is the type of person who can just use a confessional naturally; it's not in their personality. but it makes it easier to figure out what's going on, how people are thinking, and on a player level to lay out thoughts and plans and notes
Right. In other words, it makes it entertaining to spectate. Otherwise Spectators are lost and have no idea what's going on. A reality show without interviews/confessionals would be boring because there'd be little context.
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Post Post #246 (isolation #14) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:31 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 245, Chevre wrote:idk

like among other things, there was all my drivel about tribal lines and pagongings in Nexus. I'm sure the spectators could've sussed it out through other means, but because I was directly saying "gee I wonder hope if that Blue Team I spent 24 hours in will stick together?", spectators and moderators were immediately like "WHY IS THIS HAPPENING SHUT IT DOWN" and now that I've gon back and read the spec forums, I've learned a little nugget of info.

Of course part of is entertainment. But if you're entertaining it drives people to your confessional to see what sort of malarkey you're pushing out today.
But as a player, why do I care? It either (a) doesn't affect the outcome or the game or (b) DOES affect the outcome of the game in a way that's probably unintentional and thus less than ideal (unless a mod has designed a mechanic that utilizes spectators).
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Post Post #250 (isolation #15) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:36 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 248, xRECKONERx wrote:Because mods should get something out of running a game like insight into wtf is exactly happening
But again, as a player, the feelings of the mods aren't like... super concerning to me. I've never played a game with the idea of making the game fun for the moderator. I wouldn't play a game of basketball with the thought of "oh I hope the referee is having a good time!"
In post 247, Chevre wrote:It gives you something to do while you're waiting for PMs to reply

It just lets you lay out your thoughts. Like I rarely go back to what I was thinking or anything but having to type it all out lets me see the forest and the trees.

I don't know it's fun
Look, I'm not saying that confessionals are stupid or bad or that people who use them are unreasonable in doing so. I'm just saying that I couldn't care less about spectators when I'm a player (as a moderator, I'd almost certainly feel differently).
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Post Post #253 (isolation #16) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:38 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 249, Drench wrote:yeah i mean if you feel strongly then go ahead, i'm more concerned with "oh the spectators didn't see what actually happened therefore they should Not" talk anyway because there is actually a cool and exciting way to prevent that called confessionals
And I think given the number of PMs sent that saying confessionals can substitute for "what is going on" is probably naive. It's possible there are a few players who put enough in their confessionals to follow along to a full extent, but the vast majority will not, not matter how much pressure you try to put on them.
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Post Post #254 (isolation #17) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:39 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 252, xRECKONERx wrote:What you're​ suggesting Zor would be like a mafia game not having the mods be able to read any PTs
But that happens already. You don't get to read the PMs! Unless you're saying that every PM should be copy and pasted into a confessional...
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Post Post #257 (isolation #18) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:42 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 256, Papa Zito wrote:
In post 246, zoraster wrote: But as a player, why do I care? It either (a) doesn't affect the outcome or the game or (b) DOES affect the outcome of the game in a way that's probably unintentional and thus less than ideal (unless a mod has designed a mechanic that utilizes spectators).
Helps organize your thoughts during the game. Helps keep track of everything that's going on. Interacting with spectators is fun so you increase your own enjoyment as well. Gives you something to put side-by-side with other player confessionals when the game is over to get a nice narrative of the game.
Sure, I have no problem with this. But that's why it's a nice basically optional feature. It allows for greater enjoyment of the game for some players and the spectators/mods. I'm not anti-confessional as a game design feature.
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Post Post #260 (isolation #19) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:43 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 258, BROseidon wrote:Replace pms with forums.

Problem solved, except the mods have to do like hundreds of forums and also ain't nobody gonna read all that
Yeah, you basically require that the game be pretty small (or at least that the tribes be very small).

If you have 20 players, tribes of 10 would lead to 90 forums for person to person communication.
If you have 20 players, tribes of 4 would lead to 30 forums for person to person communication.
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Post Post #261 (isolation #20) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:44 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 259, McMenno wrote:I mean it was brought up as a counterpoint to "specs don't know what's going on so shouldn't comment"
Right. And this was my objection.
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Post Post #265 (isolation #21) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:56 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 264, UpTooLate wrote:
In post 250, zoraster wrote:But again, as a player, the feelings of the mods aren't like... super concerning to me. I've never played a game with the idea of making the game fun for the moderator. I wouldn't play a game of basketball with the thought of "oh I hope the referee is having a good time!"
Ok but the mods put in a TON of time and effort to create this game for people to play, and then they have to watch it play out. What better way to show your appreciation for them and their hard work by making it a fun experience for them too?
This isn't a bad attitude to take, and as a mafia moderator I always loved when players had a QT or PMed me their thoughts periodically.
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Post Post #270 (isolation #22) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:09 am

Post by zoraster »

all right, all right. i've been convinced. if i ever play another game I'll try to give some morsels.
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Post Post #275 (isolation #23) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:25 am

Post by zoraster »

In post 273, xofelf wrote:
In post 270, zoraster wrote:if i ever play another game I'll try to give some morsels.
But zor, you gotta let everyone have a yearly dose of glee for voting you out of a game. Do it for the site. It's what we really need, the ability to have you on the same level as us where we utterly destroy you. It brings the community together. Isn't that what you want?
If I'm getting voted out because of my CONFESSIONAL posting, then there is something wrong going on.
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Post Post #287 (isolation #24) » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:59 am

Post by zoraster »

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Post Post #419 (isolation #25) » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:12 pm

Post by zoraster »

How personal can people get without giving clues as to their real identity?
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Post Post #445 (isolation #26) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:31 am

Post by zoraster »

Look at it this way: if someone shares something personal with me as an anonymous player in a game, I feel totally within my rights to turn around and tell whoever I want about it if that'll gain me an in-game advantage.
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Post Post #458 (isolation #27) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:47 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 449, BROseidon wrote:Just because it's a game doesn't mean that basic aspects of human decency go away.
If you gain an advantage by over sharing personal stuff, then I don't see why it's inappropriate to do the same with than info.

If you tell me, Zoraster, a personal story about yourself — even if you do so froma throwaway account (if I couldn't see who you were), I'd never dream of violating your confidentiality. As an admin, I've gone to great lengths to maintain that feeling because it's important.

But if you tell Buffy the survivor player, you're doing so in a way that I assume has at least some ulterior motive and feel no compunction about betraying except to the somewhat likely extent it might bite me in the ass.
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Post Post #462 (isolation #28) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:53 pm

Post by zoraster »

How about even little shit like someone telling you they can't make a challenge (and thus earn your ire if they mess up) because their mom died? Like come on. To give confidentiality for personal stuff is to allow people to abuse the goodness of other players OUTSIDE the parameters of the game.
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Post Post #464 (isolation #29) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:57 pm

Post by zoraster »

Discretion matters but it does so within the game. If I violate your trust, I've made an enemy.

But if I see an advantage to it, I will betray it. Because I assumetheres a good chance you're just being manipulative and the goal is to win, not make long lasting out of game friends.
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Post Post #466 (isolation #30) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:00 pm

Post by zoraster »

I mean, I think that's why people don't care for ME sometimes, not just Buffy.
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Post Post #471 (isolation #31) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:04 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 467, BROseidon wrote:
In post 464, zoraster wrote:Discretion matters but it does so within the game. If I violate your trust, I've made an enemy.

But if I see an advantage to it, I will betray it. Because I assumetheres a good chance you're just being manipulative and the goal is to win, not make long lasting out of game friends.
And if you do that to someone who told you that in good faith and they call you an asshole for it, you had it coming.

Is really all I'm saying.
Okay, I guess, but in a game where you literally vote out other people, I hope you'd agree that there is at least a necessary fiction that being called an asshole for in game is not the same thing as being an asshole outside.
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Post Post #476 (isolation #32) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:09 pm

Post by zoraster »

I don't care about your personal take on literary criticism or how it applies here. Either you separate in game actions and this is a game worth playing or you can't and it's not.
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Post Post #481 (isolation #33) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:16 pm

Post by zoraster »

Personally I'd probably remove any player that leaned on out of game threats to influence in game behavior if I were the mod and knew it was going on.
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Post Post #489 (isolation #34) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:24 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 487, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
In post 462, zoraster wrote:How about even little shit like someone telling you they can't make a challenge (and thus earn your ire if they mess up) because their mom died?
The Johnny Fairplay Gambit is a legitimate Survivor Move.
Sure! This is my point. But the only way it's legitimate is if there aren't out of game consequences for telling anyone else about it if you want if someone tries to use it.
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Post Post #495 (isolation #35) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:28 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 491, BROseidon wrote:Like you're free to do w/e you want.

Other people are allowed to call you an asshole for it.

This shouldn't be that hard.
Call me an asshole in game, sure. Call me one out of game? That's pretty shitty of you.
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Post Post #505 (isolation #36) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:33 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 497, BROseidon wrote:
In post 495, zoraster wrote:
In post 491, BROseidon wrote:Like you're free to do w/e you want.

Other people are allowed to call you an asshole for it.

This shouldn't be that hard.
Call me an asshole in game, sure. Call me one out of game? That's pretty shitty of you.
Again, how much do you believe in death of the artist?
The game does not work without at least the fiction of it in this case. Whether I buy it for literature is a different and irrelevant consideration.
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Post Post #508 (isolation #37) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:35 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 504, BROseidon wrote:Like this isn't every little thing, but there's a line and discretion that should be exercised that I'd hope everyone is capable of having.
Don't tell people in your game personal stuff you don't want others to know. I will gladly trade it for in game advantages. And you don't know if it's me. And if you think you've figured out its me, then you're violating the anonymity of the game in a way that is destructive.
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Post Post #518 (isolation #38) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 514, BROseidon wrote:
In post 508, zoraster wrote:
In post 504, BROseidon wrote:Like this isn't every little thing, but there's a line and discretion that should be exercised that I'd hope everyone is capable of having.
Don't tell people in your game personal stuff you don't want others to know. I will gladly trade it for in game advantages. And you don't know if it's me. And if you think you've figured out its me, then you're violating the anonymity of the game in a way that is destructive.
But what advantages are you trading it for?
How should I know? Things can happen in a million ways.
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Post Post #526 (isolation #39) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:44 pm

Post by zoraster »

In post 521, BROseidon wrote:
In post 518, zoraster wrote:
In post 514, BROseidon wrote:
In post 508, zoraster wrote:
In post 504, BROseidon wrote:Like this isn't every little thing, but there's a line and discretion that should be exercised that I'd hope everyone is capable of having.
Don't tell people in your game personal stuff you don't want others to know. I will gladly trade it for in game advantages. And you don't know if it's me. And if you think you've figured out its me, then you're violating the anonymity of the game in a way that is destructive.
But what advantages are you trading it for?
How should I know? Things can happen in a million ways.
Generally speaking, telling people about other people's personal shit for personal gain makes you look shitty.

You can't pretend the social game doesn't exist. People will think you're an asshole, and assholes don't win (speaking in the context of the character you're playing, not you as a person)
I agree. It's tactically stupid usually. But that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Are you making an argument that it's a bad way to win or that people should dislike you out of the game for it?

Edir: yeah. If you hate my character, by all meand
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Post Post #527 (isolation #40) » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:44 pm

Post by zoraster »

If you can keep it in game, villains make for more interesting games, right?
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