Newbie 1781 - Game over

[Tarkus]

Hi all! Fykus must be town, nobody with a Kamina avi would betray us.

VOTE: HighKingDestro

Down with monarchs.

[Tarkus]

That seems like a pretty weak reason considering how cautious you were in bringing it out, but I think I might get why you did it that way. What do you think about his response?

[Tarkus]

To me, it sounds a bit like someone worried about being called out and scumread by you. Bringing up the 1-shot BP claim strategy in that moment feels weird to me, when "who is the scum" should've been the obvious first response.

[Tarkus]

Is that because the BP claim thing seems like a pro-town move and scum wouldn't suggest it? Because I see that logic.

[Tarkus]

I'm in favor of the BP claim strat, but I'd like to hear what the experienced players think since they know more about the meta and mechanics than I do.

[Tarkus]

Destro, I'd like to hear why you vote hopped from lemon to creature, and why you joined the lemon wagon in the first place.

Also I'm not one-shot bulletproof.

The claim strategy is laid out here in game 1775 by RadiantCowbells, if you don't know what we're doing:

Spoiler:

So, over the last few months while I was not playing Mafia I have been working on strategies to up town's winrate in this setup and since I have finally rolled town I am going to put them into action.
The correct play at the beginning of D1 in this setup is for the 1-Shot Bulletproof, if any, to claim. This helps town immensely in numerous setups. Why am I advocating this?

1) It is fucking insane for scum to try to claim 1-shot BP in this situation. It is an insane risk play which forces a 1v1 in 5/6 setups and gets minor towncred in 1/6.
2) If the setup is Roleblocker/Jailkeeper/1-Shot BP, it's easy for the BP claim to be disbelieved. The claim coming at the start of the game makes it far more trustworthy.
3) If the setup is Tracker/1-Shot BP/Goon, the Tracker knows that there is no doc and can be a lot safer on claiming. Note that mathematically the correct play is to target the outed tracker if the other PR is not known; so little potential gain is made here.
4) If the setup is Tracker/Doc/Goon, a living tracker will know by the lack of a BP claim that there is a doctor. He can then claim safely and be doctor protected the entire game. Which sucks because I'm going to get guaranteed nightkilled but I'll get over it.

Since the 1-Shot Bulletproof doesn't actually net town a mislynch by being hit it is not actually specifically valuable for it to bait the hit.
This does come at the cost of narrowing down the game possibilities for scum: but I believe that the reward is well worth the price.

[Tarkus]

lol, Accountant said Lemons claimed scum, and I assumed I missed that post:facepalm:
Then I reread the thread, and came to the conclusion Creature is scum. Reread it yourself, focus on Creature

I have, and I don't really see scum. I think I might've gotten lucky with my rvs dart throw, but fykus' ultimatum there rubs me the wrong way. So do people posting without having claimed BP or not. If you don't want to try the strategy, I want to hear it, but stalling it out seems scummy.

[Tarkus]

Alright I'm caught up, should've taken a v/la this weekend. I'll try not to make that a habit.

I'm surprised that Destro hasn't mentioned the BP claim strat, considering he was scum in 1775 where it basically gave town an easy win in two days. I keep going back to this BP thing because I think it's interesting and I don't understand why town wouldn't have something to say about it. But you guys know where I stand on it by now so this'll probably be the last time I bring it up.

What's wrong with wagons being fast? If the goal is to lynch scum, isn't the thing that matters that we're hitting scum?

I agree that the thing that matters is that we hit scum but it's important to realize I think that this is a newbie game and we gotta a) take it easy and b) realize that straight out of the gate even townie newbs can sound scummy. I'm not really talking about myself, I've already played one game. Plus, we've got a lot of time left. I don't think now is the time to be spontaneous.

Really don't like this post. Of course townie newbs can sound scummy, but I don't see anybody pushing for a page 6 lynch and isn't Day 1 a good time for spontaneous votes and quick wagons to pressure people and stir shit up? More votes gives us more info to work with moving forward. Things aren't exactly moving at breakneck speed and a "we should slow down" post isn't helpful right now.

I'm thinking only one of Lemon and Destro are scum. Partners probably wouldn't be on creature together when they've both been getting pressure. They'd be thinking ahead more than that. Both have seemed the scummiest so far, but I'm leaning lemon now.

VOTE: Vote: EccentricLemon

[Tarkus]

And why are you still on creature? @lemon

[Tarkus]

Idk, that just doesn't seem right to me. I don't think lemon was pushing that hard. But I'm open to the idea.

[Tarkus]

@accountant thoughts on fykus?

[Tarkus]

Yeah, having a hard time myself. I can see that. Destro does need the pressure.

[Tarkus]

Hi. Catching up now, posting as I go.

That seems like a pretty weak reason considering how cautious you were in bringing it out, but I think I might get why you did it that way. What do you think about his response?

To me, it sounds a bit like someone worried about being called out and scumread by you. Bringing up the 1-shot BP claim strategy in that moment feels weird to me, when "who is the scum" should've been the obvious first response.

Eight minutes between these two posts. Don't like it. It's like you tacked the bottom on because you thought it'd looked better, and it doesn't sound genuine either.

VOTE: Tarkus

That’s a stretch. I just wanted to add my thoughts on it. If you think following up on my own posts is scummy, you’ll be reading me wrong all game.

[Tarkus]

I've done it four times now

[Tarkus]

Yeah I went for the easier part, and it seemed kinda important from the way you presented it. Idk I was just getting into the game then, and I said something that was on my mind and that I thought would get a response from fykus.

[Tarkus]

Hmmm yeah okay you're right. But you're not curious about why I think your post was fake?

Assumed it was just a general feeling in addition to what you've said already, but yeah if you have more to the read then lay it out. It may give insight into what I'm more curious about as well.

[Tarkus]

Here are the posts.

That seems like a pretty weak reason considering how cautious you were in bringing it out, but

I think I might get why you did it that way

. What do you think about his response?

To me, it sounds a bit like someone worried about being called out and scumread by you. Bringing up the 1-shot BP claim strategy in that moment feels weird to me, when "who is the scum" should've been the obvious first response.

I actually misread the underlined part to be referring to Fykus. Sorry about that. Doesn't really change much though.

1. There wasn't any transition. Eight minutes is a long time. Realizations often come shorter. If it had been maybe one or two minutes between it wouldn't've been a problem, but eight minutes makes me think he had an ulterior motive there. I could think of possibly one or maybe two reasons why he'd do such a thing as town but I'd like to hear it from his mouth before I drop it.
   
   
2. "Worried about being called out and scumread" is textbook. Which is pretty okay, but not here. There is nothing that could've made Fykus think Creature was talking about him. He had one post before Creature mentioned it, and sure, he was posting elsewhere, but people who are truly worried about being called out for lurking will not lurk in the first place. So I'm pretty sure Tarkus just pulled the first thing that sounded like it fit and called it a day.
   
   
3. The claiming suggestion was within the same minute of "sure let's hear it." Seems like Fykus didn't see Creature's post until he posted himself. Even if Tarkus wasn't paying attention to timestamps, they were still immediately after one another, and incriminating Fykus for bringing up the BP claim strat before asking who's scum doesn't make sense considering mafia has zero motive to do that in this situation.

Short version: Tarkus and I have unbridgeable hunting styles or he's scum. I think he's scum. But I'm still curious about what he's curious about.

Ooo this was a more thought-out read than I gave it credit for at first, ok so

1. I multitask a lot, practically constantly. I wasn't staring at my screen for 8 minutes trying to come up with something to add, but I was thinking about it still, and decided to lay out where my head was at before hearing from creature.
2. I was thinking at the time that lurking scum would want to be quick to respond to that callout due to paranoia. Maybe they weren't really worried about lurking before, cause it was early, but creature's post gave them an "o shit" moment.
3. This is mostly fair. But I didn't "incriminate" fykus, and I brought up that point about the lack of mafia motive myself. If I thought I had a strong read I would've voted him. I was struggling to sort him and was trying to look at it from different angles, get my thought process on the table, and hear more from him.

I don't think I have much of a defined hunting style yet, and definitely didn't at the start of the game. What I'm curious about is if you're town coming in with a fresh perspective and an honest hunt, or if you're scum trying to push a new wagon and defend lemon/destro. If you're town I think we'll be able to bridge the gap

[Tarkus]

1. I was mulling it over before.
2. Well he was lurking, and he did post right after the callout. Not a strong argument given the content of the posts I'll admit, could easily be town trying to get into the game and offer something but I wanted him to come in and talk more.
3. It just felt weird at the time really, like why would you say this right now when someone supposedly found scum. Looking back and after hearing your points I do think I was probably off base.

Still don't have him sorted, and a lot's gone on since then but he hasn't done much aside from stating intent to L1 destro and then eventually doing it. Verdict is pretty null right now.

[Tarkus]

Are we gonna do that bulletproof reveal schtick that seems to be the craze these days or na?

Should we?

Well we're about halfway there. What do you think?

Link to ongoing game removed.

[Tarkus]

Unless I missed someone, right now we're at:
Accountant- not BP
Aatami- not BP
Fykus- not BP
Me- not BP

[Tarkus]

Ahh woops, sorry! Won't happen again.

[Tarkus]

OK. One more question. Why didn't you say what you thought in your first post?

I didn't feel confident in my reasoning and was more interested in hearing creature's take since he had the scumread. Then I figured I'd just say it, try to get involved in the conversation, and continue to evaluate.

[Tarkus]

Might I remind you that the post was this:

Hey hey hey, discriminating against fruits is not allowed. Some of us are very nice people.

VOTE: Creature that avatar really gives me the creeps for some reason.

And I haven't mentioned Creature again since then? Also that Destro doesn't vote Creature until #96? You can't call this a wagon by any stretch of the imagination.

Hmm really? I thought this was referring to creature acting scummy?

I prefer not to trust early claims but I really don't see how you could scumread Fykus that early either. To be completely honest, I feel like calling someone out after a page and a half of pretty insubstantial dialogue seems scummier than the BT claim.
Something/someone DID have to set the ball rolling I suppose. (For future posts--I'm not great with the whole putting my ideas in words thing, so if I confuse you or I say something really weird, don't be afraid to call me out on it and I'll try my best to explain)

[Tarkus]

Ok, so you never really thought creature was scum and left your vote on him still because you haven't seen anything particularly scummy from anyone else?

[Tarkus]

Your vote being on creature isn't really what bothers me. It's more that you don't have any reads stronger than him, who you don't think is scum, to put it on. Or anyone you want to pressure with it. I wasn't telling you to unvote, I just wanted some clarification on why it was still there.

[Tarkus]

Just a little offshoot of this thought - I find it curious that rb was kind of against the BP claim at the beginning and then never confirmed or denied if they are BP or not (considering the fact that our IC would have to be experienced in mafia and would thus know the advantages of this strategy).

As for the moment though, im 90% certain that HKD is scum and I find it unfortunate that the wagon on him fell apart before he could reappear and react to the pressure on him (surely he'd be due for a prod right about now?). As for his partner I'm going to have to do a few ISO reads to try and come to that conclusion.

That is curious. Not sure if rb was actually against it but he definitely didn't offer any support. Need to hear from him on this, but I like where his vote is at and I've been leaning town on him so far.

And I don't think the destro wagon really fell apart. Lost some votes, but I'm still scumreading him and accountant was as well. He should still be feeling the pressure.

[Tarkus]

Btw lemon claimed not BP as well

[Tarkus]

Yayy we're doing this!

VOTE: Destro

And I think sagittarius is prob town.

[Tarkus]

should I wait for rb and destro or

[Tarkus]

ask questions and stuff

[Tarkus]

I wasn't going to wait long, wanted to see what people would say

@Lemonnn I see a path to you being town but it's getting more remote. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. It seems like you don't really care about your vote much, which isn't a very town attitude to have. It's fine to have a wrong vote on a townie sometimes but you gotta use it as a tool I think.

Who do you think is the scummiest? And also do you not agree with voting for the people who haven't claimed not bp/bp?

And yeah ruuuude (jk it's fine lol)

[Tarkus]

And I like fykus and your responses btw

[Tarkus]

I'd like a claim from you three on your next posts please or I'll start voting as if a non claim is an admission of being scum.

Not really a fan of this take-charge attitude or the missed statement in my post. Even if Fykus just skimmed my post, my not BP claim was the last thing in the post, so it wasn't hard to miss. I agree it was a bit long and dreary, but especially if he's so concerned with the whole BP claim thing he should at least be skimming posts for that. What I'm trying to say is I don't like how this means or at least makes it seem that Fykus didn't read that post, which he should have expected was going to answer to a lot of statements made toward me at a time when my play was under scrutiny.

What on earth is wrong with his attitude there?

[Tarkus]

I actually like that argument from rb. But why didn't you say that way earlier? I still think you should claim, because we're in too deep and I want to win this, but I agree with your stand philosophically.

[Tarkus]

rb why is sagittarius scummy? And sagittarius what do you think of lemon now?

[Tarkus]

Loopdan have you played with him before? Any chance he'd take a stand like this as town?

[Tarkus]

You're both making a lot of sense right now, I like this theory.

[Tarkus]

Rb, jeez, I'm not saying I expected you to be 100% caught up because you posted, I said you

saw the posts I mentioned

because you literally

commented

on the first and

quoted

the second one. It'd be cool if you said something like "oh damn, I guess I just didn't think about it :^)" but you're denying you completely didn't see them when you obviously did.

Yeah this is true and really hurts rb's argument here. I'm struggling with the idea that scum!rb has been bussing lemon since the start of the game tho.

Sagittarius, what's giving you a town read off lemon's recent posts?

[Tarkus]

My read on her isn't the result of "wow, what townie posts!" it's because of the lack of scummy posts + I'm scumreading other people who have done things that I earnestly can't see coming from town. You're one of them but you're getting better so things might change after review.

About bussing Lemon so early idk, I thought that was standard play here. Is it not?

Ok gotcha. Idk if day 1 buses are standard here or not. An experienced player doing that to a newb doesn't sit right with me, but maybe it was all part of The Plan.

Orrr maybe lemon is town and I've been on the wrong track. Creature, why do you think she's town?

I'll take a closer look at Fykus later, but on principle I agree with pressuring him.

[Tarkus]

UNVOTE:

[Tarkus]

Or don't, I think you should read the game first. Not in a rush to lynch rb, personally.

[Tarkus]

Whew I was worried you gave up on this game and we were going to mislynch without getting your reads.

[Tarkus]

I'm only half here so don't expect too much from me until tomorrow morning thx

[Tarkus]

VOTE: Fykus

[Tarkus]

Ignoring pre-flip associations is an awfully convenient way to ignore that one of your scumreads is wrong. Fykus/rb isn't the team.

[Tarkus]

@fykus why did you change your vote to rb? You were 90% sure that destro was scum, your vote was on him already, and he hadn't shown up to claim or been replaced yet.

[Tarkus]

Following up @Sagittarius, not saying that you need to change your reads based on possible teams. I get that you think they're independently the scummiest. But you realize what I'm saying, yeah?

Looking back on rb, I don't see scum motivation behind any of it really. I think he makes the same play, town or scum, and possibly fake claims if he's scum.

[Tarkus]

Oh and why do you scumread creature?

[Tarkus]

Tarkus: No, I'm not following. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I scumread two people then I townread the others because there are only two scum slots. Doesn't mean I won't ever change them and I'm open to hearing why I'm wrong. I don't see what is preventing a rb/Fykus team either but if you have quotes to support it go ahead.

As for Creature, he's actually pretty null in terms of personal opinion, town in terms of reads for the reason I said earlier. I don't have him higher up because I don't like how he seems to be doing his own thing but I don't have him as scum because idk if it's a gripe with his playstyle or if it's something legitimately scummy.

Creature: Why not? I think he's being pretty transparent about what he's trying to do and I like transparency. Good players can fake it but it's kind of stupid to trash a read just because of "what ifs." Sometimes the easiest explanation is the right one.

I'm not going to pull quotes right now. Their interactions are not how partners would act in the context of this game. You think fykus would try to lynch rb the way he's been doing if they were partners? Seriously?

That's a scummy answer on creature too. Like something mafia would think sounds safe and neutral, but actually isn't. You have him third to the bottom because he's "doing his own thing?" That's not an accurate description of his play, and not a good reason to have him as the least-towny-town.

VOTE: Sagittarius

[Tarkus]

Yeah, I think there's scums between sag/lemon/fykus and I want to lynch one of those three. Will come back tomorrow with more.

[Tarkus]

Hey pyra, aatami, lemon: think there was scum on the rb wagon?

[Tarkus]

Good point, don't wanna find ourselves in a situation where we rush to lynch someone at the deadline without giving them a chance to make an argument and/or claim. Join me on this?

VOTE: Fykus

[Tarkus]

kk, who would you want to lynch the most? I get that you're uncertain, it's day 1 after all, but the clock's ticking and we need to rally someone to L-1 soon.

My feeling on the rb wagon is that it seemed like a slam dunk as soon as rb refused to claim, with momentum already behind the "claim or die" idea, and they overplayed their hand.

[Tarkus]

Eeek I'm getting cold feet on Fykus

[Tarkus]

Lemon, now would be great time to come back from v/la if you can..

[Tarkus]

Ok yeah, after more thinking and iso reading I think lemon is a safer lynch. Lots of fence-sitting, not really scum reading, and zero use of her vote at all. And you'd think town going v/la this close to the deadline would at least vote on their top scumread before taking off. I won't argue against the integrity of the v/la, irl stuff happens, but man 425 is a really weak post to leave us with. It really sucks to lynch someone who isn't here tho

I'm not clearing fykus and I'd still rather lynch him than rb or nobody, so I'll keep my vote here for the moment, but it's looking risky to me.

[Tarkus]

I think it's clear he's not going to bp claim, and I don't want him to claim a PR if that's what you're suggesting. I've considered the rb case and I'm not convinced at all. It seems contrived and focused on little things that I don't find all that scummy, and I've been reading his play as towny otherwise. Plus creature thinks he's town, and I've been townreading creature. So no I won't put him at L-1. If he's getting lynched it's without my vote, and if the scumteam is like rb/creature then I'm just lost right now lol

I want to hear what people think about lynching lemon and who they think is a better alternative. Tick tock

[Tarkus]

UNVOTE:

[Tarkus]

VOTE: Loopdan

[Tarkus]

I still think there was scum on the rb wagon, he hasn't seemed towny to me, and I don't think sagittarius is the lynch tonight.

[Tarkus]

I think he was saying that claims are a way to convince people not to lynch you, which is true and not scummy to suggest imo. I was hoping to get enough people onto someone else so that I wouldn't have to bank on people changing their minds.

[Tarkus]

It should I think. We gotta lynch someone, and claiming is generally the move you make when you're about to get lynched (afaik). The problem's that fykus and I don't agree on who should be forced to claim.

[Tarkus]

Yup. I noticed too late

[Tarkus]

Pyra what do you think of this?

Heres why we should lynch rb: if he flips scum we know its either lemon or pyra thats his buddy. If he flips town it clears lemon. And town can start to figure out who the scum team is.

[Tarkus]

Hmm okay we have like 24 hours left and I'm a gambling man. Gut feel is off but I can roll with this.

VOTE: rb
L-1

[Tarkus]

UNVOTE:

quickhammer jitters

[Tarkus]

I got some time to give rb and harsh

[Tarkus]

Ok with harsh on board, that settles it.

VOTE: rb

[Tarkus]

So no I won't put him at L-1. If he's getting lynched it's without my vote, and if the scumteam is like rb/creature then I'm just lost right now lol

Creature I agree with that plan.

@pyra why didn't you vote on anyone after Fykus claimed?

[Tarkus]

Ohh yeah, idk what we gain from a cop claim now assuming no red check.

Reads would be cool

[Tarkus]

Lmao awesome, ya dude!

[Tarkus]

VOTE: pyra

Very Good!

[Tarkus]

Glad nobody bought too hard into my extremely wrong view of the game lol. But you guys got me on the right side eventually, gj

[Tarkus]

Ohh sag was doc, wp

Short game, but critiques on my play are welcome! Could've seen fykus crumbing those rather large crumbs earlier and avoided pushing on him, of course.