Micro 691: Just Mafia (Game Over)

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Tenshii

Any more white noise and we'd have to use Malcolm X to save this game.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: tenshii

really?
for what?

Are you comfortable with Tenshi's play so far? If so, why?

[Aj The Epic]

Yes, because your spam is less helpful than nipples on a man.

[Aj The Epic]

To you, am I scum or bad town?

Too early to be sure, but you're a lead and I'm going to start here.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: tenshii

really?
for what?

Are you comfortable with Tenshi's play so far? If so, why?

I don't have a particular issue with him, if I did I wouldn't of asked.

VOTE: AJ the Epic

Frankly, that's quite a loaded question.

My vote shows we have an active disagreement. Your vote shows you're unable to discuss it.

[Aj The Epic]

You're being two-faced, calling me passive-aggressive and doing exactly the same thing.
The REAL ridiculous issue here is you won't continue a discussion on a player at all! It's page 2, do you want the fucking manifesto on why tenshii is scummy? I wasn't telling you "Yeah I need you to write me a 5 page paper", but you refused to do anything. You're choosing to not communicate for no real explained reason and it isn't a good look for you.

[Aj The Epic]

Speaking frankly, I've liked no one's play thus far and think they could all use to get their ass in gear and post. LuV's play this game actually bothers me, and I consider myself fairly aquatinted with his bad habits of sounding scummy early. Here particularly, he's been as brief as possible with no real advancement to the game. I would argue that schadd's reasoning isn't well put together, the vote placement/timing isn't bad by itself.

Tenshii's white noise was bothering me because there wasn't anything productive that could come from it, up until roughly post 49. early in the game, scum can try and post a lot to integrate easier/get in with the 'town block'.

Temphq's post on 'tvt or svs' is pretty bad too. I'd probably only make a preliminary call on Hiraki being town this early. Depending on his next post, I'd be interested in looking into lynching Schadd but right now I think I prefer Temphq.

VOTE: Temphq

[Aj The Epic]

schadd you normally post a lot more than this.

[Aj The Epic]

I can't really understand any scum motivation behind this unless temphdq is scum with one of Maxous or AJ.

Quite simply because it's so non-committal. Yeah he's implicitly saying 'its not scumVtown' but what does that solve for this? He doesn't ascertain first off WHY he thinks it could be scum theatre, and town v town is the statistically most likely outcome. Taking over 2/3s of the possible results as 'what's happening here' with no reasoning why is NOT a good look.

[Aj The Epic]

You can't argue for lack of elaboration when most of the playerlist, including yourself, hasn't done so.

Sure but I'm arguing his responses are noncommittal and for something like a statement of 'yeah it's tvt or svs' which is inherently broad and has

completely different meanings

in each case, it DOES warrant justification on why he has such vastly different opinions.

Also Hiraki I can't imagine you making a single weaker vote than that. You:

1) Used another player's reasoning
2) And that player's reasoning isn't even really a good one, seeing as it was after a secondary or tertiary point on temphq
3) List random shit towntells with little information, which contradicts the point you're playing with
4) the line 'mostly for what tenshii said but nothing more' is stupid.

[Aj The Epic]

And let this be a lesson to you all. No one snipes Umlaut 4 times in a row!

[Aj The Epic]

Of course I reacted to a weak vote. You're like 3 days into the game and feeding that weak shit.

[Aj The Epic]

You're acting as if having no justification EXCUSES your lame excuse for a vote.

[Aj The Epic]

Quick catchup, hooray.

VOTE: Tenshii

Any more white noise and we'd have to use Malcolm X to save this game.

White noise? It was page 1 and it appeared to be pretty standard RVS talk. Also, at the time Schadd had made 5 posts to tenshii's 6 on Page 1. Both of them had been cluttering the thread, why only single out tenshii?

You're being two-faced, calling me passive-aggressive and doing exactly the same thing.
The REAL ridiculous issue here is you won't continue a discussion on a player at all! It's page 2, do you want the fucking manifesto on why tenshii is scummy? I wasn't telling you "Yeah I need you to write me a 5 page paper", but you refused to do anything. You're choosing to not communicate for no real explained reason and it isn't a good look for you.

This seems like an overreaction.
/quote]

I swear I've explained the first part. It's not content that could've added to discussion in any meaningful way, it's just Tenshii trying to slip into the game early and establish a presence via spamposting. Seeing his activity's quick decline, I think it's definitely something to keep an eye on as a forced habit as opposed to a general playstyle.

My post to Max isn't an overreaction in my eyes. His post was pretty stupid in the fact that he's refusing to answer a question and stating I gave a loaded question. It wasn't loaded: Max was showing very clearly he thought Tenshii was town. Instead, he just voted. To me, that was a clear signal of a disinterest to discuss tenshii or anything regarding tenshii. That's why I was so pissed off when he's saying I'm being passive aggressive when all I wanted is a fucking answer and maybe even a discussion to boot. Yeah I still can't townread Max because he tried so hard to shut down any sort of discussion we could've had regarding Tenshii there.

P-edit: Yeah nice explanation Maxous.

Fuck this, Max is scum. No one makes these reads without having a red PM.
VOTE: Maxous

[Aj The Epic]

You
Actively
Attempt
To
Kill
Discussion

[Aj The Epic]

That's definitely a pot/kettle line of posts. And it's even funnier because:

And let this be a lesson to you all. No one snipes Umlaut 4 times in a row!

Nah the game barely started. It'll happen.

Sure but I'm arguing his responses are noncommittal and for something like a statement of 'yeah it's tvt or svs' which is inherently broad and has completely different meanings in each case, it DOES warrant justification on why he has such vastly different opinions.

Why did you opt to scumread him then instead of questioning the read then?

Frankly, that's quite a loaded question.

Why is it loaded?

Maxous answer plz.

In this post, you point out MAX hasn't answered your questions (and has yet to do so). You got some treatment differences here between players. Explain that.

Why did I suspect Temp instead of questioning him? Because his post was scummy. I gave him something to respond to, reiterated it. I stated that depending on his next post, he could move it. He never posted again, the vote stuck. Vote first isn't an issue here with a clear-stated condition for what I expect the voted party to show me. And before you pull 'coaching' out of your ass, I was the only one brining Temphq up and forcing pressure on him instead of going after Max's assigned target, schadd.

Scum avoiding inquisition? No, wondering in what world town plays like this? Absolutely. You're pulling this nonsense of "oh you're suspecting too many people". No, I'm forcing someone to show up and play town. There's no shade-throwing, I've been direct and open with everything I've said here. You're acting like I'm not going after motives, but apparently you haven't read many of my posts. Just because I'm telling you how I'm seeing it:

LuV's play this game actually bothers me, and I consider myself fairly aquatinted with his bad habits of sounding scummy early. Here particularly, he's been as brief as possible with no real advancement to the game. I would argue that schadd's reasoning isn't well put together, the vote placement/timing isn't bad by itself.

Tenshii's white noise was bothering me because there wasn't anything productive that could come from it, up until roughly post 49. early in the game, scum can try and post a lot to integrate easier/get in with the 'town block'.

That's ALL motive hunting. It's contestable, it can spark conversation, it's supposed to ADD TO THE DISCUSSION. Guess who's got the onus to follow up and discuss motives and who fucking drops the ball again and again? My entire contribution to this game has gone after people who haven't been playing to a town wincon this game, from Hiraki using weak reasoning, to Temphq being noncommittal to you using spam posts early to try and get a foothold in this game. Do I NEED to question motives? No,

that's

shade tossing. I tell you how I see it and I expect you to respond.

[Aj The Epic]

How do you fit three scum into this game...

Tenshii, you don't even consider the possibility of missing it on a read. That's you looking for a guilty on flimsy reasons. Yes my vote stayed on a slot that didn't respond. Please explain to me the part where I am telepathic and knew they were about to flake and how that's a sane/reasonable justification.

Tenshii, my playstyle isn't guilty until proven innocent. Nice attempt to generalize shit again for no reason but to advance your case. You're acting like scum, I'm calling you for it.

[Aj The Epic]

You're going to continue actively misrepping everything I say. I'm taking both you and Max, wait your fucking turn.

[Aj The Epic]

No misreps. Just facts.

Aj is scum because
1) He's trying to push the Temph slot by painting one of Temph's read as scummy, even though it was NAI.
2) His play can be summed up to "throwing shade around and seeing where it sticks." He isn't trying to actively sort/question motives. Essentially, he's immediately jumping to calling something scummy instead of considering it possibly being town as well.

Misrep 1 and 2. Not pushing Temph at all? And also your 'summary' is absolutely a misrep.

[Aj The Epic]

Temp ISN'T IN THE GAME. My vote ISN'T ON HIS REPLACEMENT.
Why you lying?

[Aj The Epic]

Fucking bullshit. There's a VC right above it, and my mention of Temphq outside of Tenshii's questioning was one post. All I get from you two is blatant manipulation relying on the game's inactivity to pass that shit off as fact.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm not asking you to be a mindreader. There's literally one post of me talking about Temphq without prompt, and a much more recent unvote.

[Aj The Epic]

still of two minds about aj.

aj, do you think tenshii is scum?

Yes.

Based on AJ's recent reactions (trying to go powertown and dictate to everyone who the lynch is going to be), Hiraki's vote on him feels like a weak attempt to bus a partner. If AJ flips scum, Hiraki deserves some attention too.

That being said, we still have a week before deadline. I'm not quite ready to L-1 him yet - we have a lot of day to go.

My question to you is, do you think this game can advance without someone trying to drive it forward? The game's about as inactive as can be without people getting replaced and people are literally prod-dodging and not having an opinion on what's going on. In my opinion, someone needs to do something so I'm going to push what I see needs to be done. Please make it easier for scum to lurk by doing nothing.

[Aj The Epic]

If AJ flips scum, Hiraki deserves some attention too.

says the person voting me

Did you not see where I said I wasn't going to L-1 AJ with a week left before deadline?

Prolonging the day doesn't do any good. What do you want to accomplish before you put him at L-1?

How about you contributing your thoughts now? That's a prod dodge with nothing more than "Yeah let's get a lynch so I can contribute less".

[Aj The Epic]

I've been aggressive since page 2 when max decided to be as roundabout as he could answering questions.

@AJ -

Why did I suspect Temp instead of questioning him? Because his post was scummy. I gave him something to respond to, reiterated it. I stated that depending on his next post, he could move it. He never posted again, the vote stuck. Vote first isn't an issue here with a clear-stated condition for what I expect the voted party to show me.

And before you pull 'coaching' out of your ass

, I was the only one brining Temphq up and forcing pressure on him instead of going after Max's assigned target, schadd.

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded part here?

Tenshii has been using really garbage logic for me ("he's not hunting motivations", "He's scum ignoring my questions") and I wasn't going to deal with the bullshit logic that because I gave Temphq conditions to my vote, I was coaching him.

[Aj The Epic]

Bullshit. All you're doing is calling things scum and if it misses you just go to the next guy. You aren't questioning motivations and you were dodging questions.

I've given specific examples to the contrary.

[Aj The Epic]

This iteration of LuV is unusual even for him, though. LuV normally ATTEMPTS to have reads, even if they're not very unique.

[Aj The Epic]

It's because people are making their obligatory prod dodge and not posting anything useful with that.

[Aj The Epic]

Can you give me some reasons you see LuV as a town read? Because thus far I'm fairly comfortable with his lynch, seeing as I don't recognize his play here.

Like I was kinda expecting a catchup that drew a few more conclusions than that.

[Aj The Epic]

Was hoping for one on Max and I since that was the biggest thing. Also more indepth on Tenshii because tenshii is fairly active, so I don't quite understand that read.

[Aj The Epic]

Luv's only got townreads and I'd only count two of his posts as substance though.

[Aj The Epic]

Active lurking my ass. I've been pushing the crap out of Aj.

Yes and your arguments have gotten stale enough that no one cares.

[Aj The Epic]

Nice of you to come back and shit the bed.

[Aj The Epic]

BTW Darklyn (who's the replacement for... schadd) has yet to post.

[Aj The Epic]

Toto, I still want to hear more about LuV. Because my soft conclusion has been he's probably the most likely scum right now (given his response in post 173, and post 204).

Actually, thinking on it: LuV's conclusion in 203 contradicts his conclusion in 173. If you're not clicking links, 173 is his "let's end the day now" post and 203 is his "I think Aj/Max is tvt" explanation, from his earlier statement that Tenshii/Max/Myself is tvtvt.

So in LuV's own progression he's showing a weakness of consistency, and his reads are, as I've stated, weak. Knowing you're on him being town, can you give me some reasons why I shouldn't help him get lynched today?

[Aj The Epic]

UNVOTE:

[Aj The Epic]

So of the count of people who have a basic obligation to contribute their full thoughts on what's going on right now because it's currently not sufficient:

Darklyn
LuV
Hiraki
Horrordude
Soblov
Tenshii

If you're on this list, I need you to give your current thoughts about the gamestate and probably a few reads. Tenshii, while being active, has asked too many questions for me to really get an idea on where he stands.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah see I don't like running off no reasons. You're new in the game, I need you to give me WHY you're leaning one way or another.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah see I don't like running off no reasons. You're new in the game, I need you to give me WHY you're leaning one way or another.

All you gotta do is trust me. You do trust me, don't you AJ?

No. I'm surprised you got that feeling anywhere in reading my last post.

[Aj The Epic]

I believe we deserve more input from you than that.

[Aj The Epic]

Here's my opinion on this bullshit you and max have about me controlling the game: If you don't like it, post.

Review ANY of my games as town or scum. I normally post middle/low to activity of the game and like to provide insight. My play here is completely out of necessity of the town's inability to generate activity. So if you take issue with it, I IMPLORE YOU to post and start driving the game.

[Aj The Epic]

I don't think you're lurking besides the time you actually were but

I'm still trying to generate discussion. I'd like to say if I were scum, I'd let activity just fall off a cliff but that's not true. However, I will say that lynching me and then adjusting nothing autoloses the game for town.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: LuV

[Aj The Epic]

I told you, this is ODD BEHAVIOR from Luv.

[Aj The Epic]

You don't see any issues with LuV's play?

[Aj The Epic]

AJ, going through your ISO has made me flip/flop my read on you like 10 times in the last 20 minutes, and that's really annoying. Can you please be either obvtown or obvscum for me?

You could definitely show me what's concerning you. If the game gets active, I can back off a bit and become pretty easy to read.

[Aj The Epic]

Besides Hiraki's view being objectively wrong, I think the case against luv goes beyond him flaking here.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=69502 Scum game

I THINK this is my most recent town game:
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69969&start=1475

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah if you ain't counterclaiming, we ain't lynching. Night actions sort this shit anyways.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Hiraki

[Aj The Epic]

Hiraki, please explain your reasoning for voting me again so everyone can remember how awful it is and the fact that you're sticking to reasons you developed on like page 5.

[Aj The Epic]

The difference in pages would be a factor if we didn't waste 5 pages trying to lynch a lurky player for lurking.

It also would be awesome if you didn't waste space lying about the reasons people wanted LuV lynched.

[Aj The Epic]

Darklyn has 0 reason to be on no one.

Also

Mod, can we get a 24 hour extension opportunity?

[Aj The Epic]

Full claims from both.

[Aj The Epic]

If you're COUNTERCLAIMING and we have to make a lynch off of that, all avaliable info needs to be on the board

++++ WE HAVE TO LYNCH HERE

LuV can't be forced to make a guess at this.

[Aj The Epic]

Newsflash: lynch is one of you two.

[Aj The Epic]

Max, you're seriously needed.

I don't see any reason to keep Tenshii here.

[Aj The Epic]

9 man game, normally 2 scum. You can't double investigate+ protective. There's a liar somewhere.

[Aj The Epic]

Like it's actually atrocious that Max and Darklyn haven't made it to take part in this whatsoever.

There's 0 world where three PRs of this type exist together. One person here (LuV, Horror, Tenshii) IS scum, it's just a matter of who.

I'm not sure if it makes sense to leave all alive. We end up with most dangerous player dead, and a scum/town 50:50.... The only real benefit is if Luv isn't scum and they don't target him, he can make a save on the town inv. role.

[Aj The Epic]

It's safe to assume 2 scum. Otherwise, standard D2 is lylo. (Games assume town lynch D1 for reference, so it'd be 6:3 -> Mislynch 5:3 -> Nightkill 4:3 D2.

Most of the time 5:2 makes more sense for D2, putting a first lylo in D3.

[Aj The Epic]

Wait what if we did a PR circle?

LuV saves Horrordude > Horrordude tracks Tenshii > Tenshii watches LuV?

Actually nvm this probably has counterplay if there is scum inside or outside the circle

Yeah scum almost certainly possess a proactive counter in roleblocker/rolestopper.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah it's almost universal that town will have more PRs by about double.

[Aj The Epic]

But setup spec afaik doesn't play a part in actual setups determining power.

[Aj The Epic]

If there's a quiet PR still, 2 claims lied. But in that case, it's ridiculous to imagine Tenshii being scum knowing his partner already claimed PR.

[Aj The Epic]

i cannot see watcher + protective in 9 players.

See I'm thinking this too, but it's still soo risky to lynch out LuV here.

[Aj The Epic]

Unless protective is like BG or something, in which case this is a basic lynch onto Horrordude.

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah, again UNLESS it's a BG.

But I'm still not sure I like to see a Watcher/Tracker combo in same game. It's probably even more powerful than an odd/even cop pair.

[Aj The Epic]

Closed setups are beautiful due to this situation. It's just normally we'd have more time.

[Aj The Epic]

Uzi, fullclaim.

VOTE: LuV

[Aj The Epic]

Full claims to 'i'm an investigative role' is mostly the same thing to scum, but distinctly different for town sorting it.

[Aj The Epic]

Toto, I still want to hear more about LuV. Because my soft conclusion has been he's probably the most likely scum right now (given his response in post 173, and post 204).

Actually, thinking on it: LuV's conclusion in 203 contradicts his conclusion in 173. If you're not clicking links, 173 is his "let's end the day now" post and 203 is his "I think Aj/Max is tvt" explanation, from his earlier statement that Tenshii/Max/Myself is tvtvt.

So in LuV's own progression he's showing a weakness of consistency, and his reads are, as I've stated, weak. Knowing you're on him being town, can you give me some reasons why I shouldn't help him get lynched today?

Hiraki. Stop ignoring the fucking cases.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Horrordude

Something tells me the inability of anyone to move a second wagon will show 1 or 2 scum here: Sobolev Space, Lil Uzi Vert, Tenshii, Hiraki

My guess is 2, in LuV and Hiraki. However, a no lynch is far more detrimental here.

[Aj The Epic]

Ouch. Actually, real ouch because LUV/Tenshii are basically confirmed town and scum lost their counterplay measure to it, it appears.

I'm leaning towards Toto second scum. I don't think this team bussed, and I think coordinating would've been a bit obvious. I feel like it would've been in scum's best interest to bank on a NL and not bus there as deadline in a dead game was kinda an issue. We can also probably assume Soblov/Hiraki as town for further notice.

P-edit: That's as expected. It's GG to kill doctor, and even if it's a RB, they can't coordinate kills [1 block, 1 shot] (which actually lends itself that there shouldn't be a RB).

[Aj The Epic]

Actually that's not a pre-edit, that's just me not realizing there was 19 pages.

[Aj The Epic]

...Jesus you're claiming RB now?

[Aj The Epic]

oh nvm I know what you're claiming. Who did you target then?

[Aj The Epic]

Well the idea is kinda to play for a perfect game from town's end.

[Aj The Epic]

We shouldn't press Uzi for claiming. It's better for us in case we miss today.

[Aj The Epic]

But yes

VOTE: Darklyn

L-2

P-edit: As you can see, not the issue right now. My main issue with Toto was that I thought he SHOULD'VE been around for that final day's claim fest and just avoided it altogether. And his vote was just badly placed.

For Darklyn though, there is his entrance to D1 that I reread and think it's pretty bad. He was basically asking me to vote a 3 person line up with no reason and never pushed to give reason when I told him I needed more.

[Aj The Epic]

Wait what

UNVOTE:

I mean... this isn't nearly as secure as I thought it was. Like no sane scum targets Dark, but... they MIGHT target max.

[Aj The Epic]

LuV, I'm fairly positive I know EXACTLY what role you are. I'm just saying it's not impossible for someone to want Max dead. I imagine you're also thinking the same thing, considering you haven't voted Max yet.

If I'm not wrong, we still have to lynch max because occam's razor but... ahhhhh I still could see people killing Max if they thought it was impossible to kill you or Tenshii.

[Aj The Epic]

My kill 100% would've been on Tenshii. I understood that Luv couldn't be a pure doctor in this setup, and was assuming he was BG at most.

[Aj The Epic]

Posts like this is exactly why I'd want you dead.

[Aj The Epic]

VOTE: Max

Alright. Luv just know if we mislynch, you need to actively understand that you have to mindgame a protect on Tenshii, and that tenshii must watch you regardless. The 50/50 created by everyone understanding the active chance of you protecting Tenshii or the chance that he's unprotected and watching you is the only way to really possibly prevent tenshii's death tonight.

[Aj The Epic]

The 50/50 created by everyone understanding the active chance of you protecting Tenshii or the chance that he's unprotected and watching you is the only way to really possibly prevent tenshii's death tonight.

I don't like this idea TBH, creates a 50% chance of LUV dying and town not knowing shit. I'd prefer if we let Ten die and at least try to confirm another townie. In the worst case we will have 2 confirmed townies by mylo.

To do this LUV has to tell us who he is targeting before nightfall, in case LUV dies we have a confirmed town alive.

No, LuV CAN NOT tell us who he's targeting. Remember, that scenario means that unless LuV has chosen the correct target, someone dies. That should be a 1/6 chance of blocked NK. This is a 50% chance of a blocked NK or a scum outed IF scum plays after our confirmed townies. This is the strongest chance of ending a game by night actions. And LuV DOES have the discretion to go out and block someone, but it's still his digression.

Power roles must empower themselves in their own actions, town can't direct them here for fear of scum using that to their advantage.

[Aj The Epic]

My only comment is the way LuV played his claim out worked really well D2 but almost cost us a PR lynch D1. The issue is, a watcher and a doctor just can't exist together in a game this size. Obviously there were more people who just felt Horrordude was strange but that was just an incredibly dangerous position to put the two town PRs in.

It probably would've worked after Horrordude's lynch that Tenshii wouldn't have died if Luv didn't RB scum. However, I think in a longer game if a scenario like that comes down LuV, you might need to fullclaim to help Tenshii's claim look more real.

Otherwise it's a perfect game for town so any complaints I have aren't that major.

[Aj The Epic]

Maybe that's the secret. Low activity, perfect game them...

[Aj The Epic]

LuV, what was your reasoning for JK'ing Max? I know he was involved in the large 1v1v1 early d1 and Tenshii was basically cleared going into night, but I dunno if I would've let Darklyn move night 2 after his entrance early in D1.

[Aj The Epic]

I think Hiraki would attest that your read that we were scum together kinda sucked. I'm pretty sure that's what tipped him off.