Newbie 1781 - Game over

[Sagittarius]

Hi. Catching up now, posting as I go.

That seems like a pretty weak reason considering how cautious you were in bringing it out, but I think I might get why you did it that way. What do you think about his response?

To me, it sounds a bit like someone worried about being called out and scumread by you. Bringing up the 1-shot BP claim strategy in that moment feels weird to me, when "who is the scum" should've been the obvious first response.

Eight minutes between these two posts. Don't like it. It's like you tacked the bottom on because you thought it'd looked better, and it doesn't sound genuine either.

VOTE: Tarkus

[Sagittarius]

Lemon's fine. Don't blame her for preferring the comfort of the picket fence instead of the prickly dead grass.

Destro is something. Don't feel like lynching him right now.

I've only ever played part of one game, dont let my join date fool you lol
I'm not ready to vote lemon, I don't think the set up to tr or sr was intentional, and I want to see a little more.
I didn't like Handsome's opening at all, and there was no follow up, lots of filler, and the mention that he wasn't a noob felt weird? Very calculated.

You still have this opinion?

[Sagittarius]

I just realized this thread wouldn't be moving as fast as I thought it would. My bad.

--

VOTE: Destro

This has an even higher chance of flipping scum than Lemons, because if Lemons is scum then 102 seems like an attempt to protect a buddy while throwing a vote on them that quickly vanishes to look good. And if Lemons is town it seems like scum pocketing town.

You really think Destro can do this?

[...]

I don't think it was intentional either. I think it was unconscious hesitancy to commit hard to a read on a player as scum. As in, I don't necessarily think Lemon is scum who rubs his hands together in glee and goes "mwahaha, this is my secret scheme to avoid giving a read on someone", I think Lemon is just newbie scum who feels a little intimidated playing scum and took the "safe" read when asked to give opinion. If you see what I mean?

Why scum hesitance instead of town hesitance?

Both these posts make me feel bad. Can't see how Lemon's post was AI and Destro is everywhere. I'd expect a little more uncertainty.

--

On the other hand, Lemon is betraying my trust by giving them a townread after snarling at them so hard. Still don't want to lynch her though.

--

And here's P7. Apparently everyone and their mother thinks Lemon/Destro is scum. Cool. I still can't see it. Fuck me, I guess.

--

Done. Time for some tea. Looking forward to seeing your thoughts, cheers.

[Sagittarius]

But I didn't ask about Destro.

[Sagittarius]

Clarify on the meaning of 'destro is something'?

I feel like this is a pretty safe stance to make on the leading wagon, whether destro flips scum or town and it seems to me that anyone's top priority right now would be to sort destro. I don't want to end games early, but why are you more interested in shifting focus OFF destro and onto someone else? Is it because you think destro's town? Or is he just your scumbuddy? ;)

It means he's something.

I said I didn't want to lynch him. So yes, I think he's town. And while I'm all for pressuring, everyone's already on his ass. Why are you discouraging discussion on other people?

That’s a stretch. I just wanted to add my thoughts on it. If you think following up on my own posts is scummy, you’ll be reading me wrong all game.

Not all I said, mate. A big part of it is how unnatural it felt. You just went for the easier part to break down and ignored the rest of the read.

[Sagittarius]

Hmmm yeah okay you're right. But you're not curious about why I think your post was fake?

[Sagittarius]

I explicitly said I did not want to lynch Destro twice, implied I had a townread on him once, and then stated it outright later on. Pretty unambiguous to me.

Destro is acting weird. He is everywhere. That's why I'm townreading him, i.e. it's tonal. I don't trust Accountant either, so it's a given I'm not going to shake a pitchfork his way.

I know, I meant I still wanted more from Lemons, I was just adding that I still feel this way about Destro.


I want to pressure others, because for the time being this is sort of a dead end until we get some more to work with, but Im not quite sure how to do that any advice(this is to everyone), how can I effectively scumhunt without a ton of content or just look im repeating what others have said even if i agree?

Oh, okay. Cool.

Y'know, that's a fine question. I'd answer but I just lurk when I don't have anything to say. It's a bad habit. Don't do it.

[Sagittarius]

Assumed it was just a general feeling in addition to what you've said already, but yeah if you have more to the read then lay it out. It may give insight into what I'm more curious about as well.

Why do you think that the latter is Tarkus tacking something on as opposed to Tarkus suddenly realizing something 8 minutes later and going back to add something?

Here are the posts.

That seems like a pretty weak reason considering how cautious you were in bringing it out, but

I think I might get why you did it that way

. What do you think about his response?

To me, it sounds a bit like someone worried about being called out and scumread by you. Bringing up the 1-shot BP claim strategy in that moment feels weird to me, when "who is the scum" should've been the obvious first response.

I actually misread the underlined part to be referring to Fykus. Sorry about that. Doesn't really change much though.

1. There wasn't any transition. Eight minutes is a long time. Realizations often come shorter. If it had been maybe one or two minutes between it wouldn't've been a problem, but eight minutes makes me think he had an ulterior motive there. I could think of possibly one or maybe two reasons why he'd do such a thing as town but I'd like to hear it from his mouth before I drop it.
   
   
2. "Worried about being called out and scumread" is textbook. Which is pretty okay, but not here. There is nothing that could've made Fykus think Creature was talking about him. He had one post before Creature mentioned it, and sure, he was posting elsewhere, but people who are truly worried about being called out for lurking will not lurk in the first place. So I'm pretty sure Tarkus just pulled the first thing that sounded like it fit and called it a day.
   
   
3. The claiming suggestion was within the same minute of "sure let's hear it." Seems like Fykus didn't see Creature's post until he posted himself. Even if Tarkus wasn't paying attention to timestamps, they were still immediately after one another, and incriminating Fykus for bringing up the BP claim strat before asking who's scum doesn't make sense considering mafia has zero motive to do that in this situation.

Short version: Tarkus and I have unbridgeable hunting styles or he's scum. I think he's scum. But I'm still curious about what he's curious about.

What is this nonsense? Why don't you blame Lemon for fencesitting?

Why don't you feel like lynching Destro?

How dare you. I am

very

sensible.

Lemons doesn't sound like fencesitting scum. She does sound afraid, but what she most definitely did not make a safe read. She called out an SE. If she really wanted to stay safe, she'd just cut it off at "I don't see how you could read Fykus that early" because nobody asked her what she thought of Creature. So I think she's just town thinking out loud. Would make sense with her discouragement of "spontaneity." See my elaboration on Destro here.

you said earlier that you don't want to lynch lemons because you don't see why people SR them - now that you've identified an actual piece of scummy behavior, what's keeping ou reluctant about the lemon wagon?

Others are scummier. That tidbit in particular wasn't scummy enough that it'd flip my read. Thinking about it a little more and putting it into context I can easily see it consistent with the rest of her behaviour.

[Sagittarius]

Ooo this was a more thought-out read than I gave it credit for at first, ok so

1. I multitask a lot, practically constantly. I wasn't staring at my screen for 8 minutes trying to come up with something to add, but I was thinking about it still, and decided to lay out where my head was at before hearing from creature.
2. I was thinking at the time that lurking scum would want to be quick to respond to that callout due to paranoia. Maybe they weren't really worried about lurking before, cause it was early, but creature's post gave them an "o shit" moment.
3. This is mostly fair. But I didn't "incriminate" fykus, and I brought up that point about the lack of mafia motive myself. If I thought I had a strong read I would've voted him. I was struggling to sort him and was trying to look at it from different angles, get my thought process on the table, and hear more from him.

I don't think I have much of a defined hunting style yet, and definitely didn't at the start of the game. What I'm curious about is if you're town coming in with a fresh perspective and an honest hunt, or if you're scum trying to push a new wagon and defend lemon/destro. If you're town I think we'll be able to bridge the gap :wink:

1. Did you reach the conclusion in #56 before or after #55?
2. That'd make sense if there was evidence to back it up. But there isn't.
3. Sorry, misinterpreted this part. But I'm talking about why you said it's weird that Fykus would mention it before asking who's scum, not why he brought it up in the first place.

You're speaking in past tense here. So what's the verdict? Still "tentative town"?

[Sagittarius]

Not BP.

1. I was mulling it over before.
2. Well he was lurking, and he did post right after the callout. Not a strong argument given the content of the posts I'll admit, could easily be town trying to get into the game and offer something but I wanted him to come in and talk more.
3. It just felt weird at the time really, like why would you say this right now when someone supposedly found scum. Looking back and after hearing your points I do think I was probably off base.

Still don't have him sorted, and a lot's gone on since then but he hasn't done much aside from stating intent to L1 destro and then eventually doing it. Verdict is pretty null right now.

OK. One more question. Why didn't you say what you thought in your first post?

[Sagittarius]

Hmmm
k

Fykus was my scumread.

He was posting elsewhere while here he seemed inactive.

Actually I felt I just had to bring something so he would appear.

?? These all seem like pretty weak reasons to scum read me, considering there are other people in the game that haven't even posted yet. I'll hold off on putting a vote on you for this cause it might just be a push by you to get the ball rolling in this game. As for the order of my responses (and their orders) I was at work about to start doing something so didn't have much time to post anything worthwhile and thought I'd be able to come back to some sort of substance re: the potential scum.
Anyways, do we wanna do the 1 shot BP thing or not? I only ask cause in another game I replaced into the other day they'd done it and now we've got a confirmed townie to rally around.

Btw Accountant, thoughts on this post?

[Sagittarius]

I appreciate that the wagon disappeared but I still don't like the speed with which Accountant rallied one and subsequently dropped it.

You just left a completely arbitrary reason to come back to Destro for disagreeing with you.

^ Sounded like accusations.

Tarkus didn't scumslip. It just smelled like fish jerky and I don't like fish jerky.

[Sagittarius]

See ya Accountant.

Idk about rb. Didn't understand why he got on my ass for something I didn't do. I'm gonna confess I kind of glazed over his posts because I found his typing mannerisms nice to read so it's probably a good idea to review him. I'm too lazy now though, maybe later.

You think I'm barking up the wrong tree Fykus?

[Sagittarius]

Still smells like fish jerky, Aatami. Not sure about Accountant though.

Idk what's the big deal about rb ignoring the BP thing. I'm more concerned about his stance on Destro/Lemon. The entire situation is like melted cheddar flung in glue. Totally piss coloured. Especially that thing with Destro. Didn't even say anything before he switched his stance there. So I'll bite.

VOTE: rb

[Sagittarius]

^ fykus

[Sagittarius]

Wait hey Aatami explain your town read on Tarkus because I like you and I need to know if I'm staring from inside the ground or out of it

[Sagittarius]

Aatami: Tunnel vision.
Tarkus: Why would you wait?
Fykus: Why are you all over Loopdan?

[Sagittarius]

Tarkus: Not sure. 270 is a pretty damning association, I agree, but everything else still seems fine to me. If rb's scum, I'd like to lynch her; otherwise my townread stays.

Hmmm should probably reevaluate regardless, this conversation is interesting.

rb: You had two distinct opportunities to protest against the strategy in 82 and 971. You ignored both. And Tarkus' post should've told you he misinterpreted your disagreement with confusion, but you didn't correct him. You clearly didn't intend to discourage the strategy at that point.

Still curious about the transition between 130 and 167 too so if you could explain your thought process there that'd be brilliant.

[Sagittarius]

971 is supposed to be 97

[Sagittarius]

You didn't outline why you liked the push on Destro and it wasn't what I was asking. How did you independently get from "I dunno what Destro did" to "probscum"?

It doesn't matter that you were V/LA, you were still posting. You didn't mention V/LA until after 97 too AFAICT. The entire case against you isn't even that you weren't posting, it was that you weren't protesting when you were here.

[Sagittarius]

Yeah, I got that, but how does that relate to how

you

came to the conclusion that Destro was scum? You never mentioned any behaviour you thought was scummy except maybe that Creature thing but that wasn't explicitly stated either and wasn't phrased accusatory... accusatorily, is that a word

I know what V/LA means and what it's for, but dude, you responded to or quoted both posts I mentioned. You were there and you saw them.

[Sagittarius]

V/LA isn't an excuse for incongruency btw
Idek where you got the incongruency thing from actually

[Sagittarius]

Rb, jeez, I'm not saying I expected you to be 100% caught up because you posted, I said you

saw the posts I mentioned

because you literally

commented

on the first and

quoted

the second one. It'd be cool if you said something like "oh damn, I guess I just didn't think about it :^)" but you're denying you completely didn't see them when you obviously did.

Anyway since I can't convince someone to scumread themselves and you think I'm scum and I think everyone else has enough information to come to a conclusion on whether you're scum I'm just gonna move on if that's OK.

Hmmm gonna go do other things first though ttyl

[Sagittarius]

My read on her isn't the result of "wow, what townie posts!" it's because of the lack of scummy posts + I'm scumreading other people who have done things that I earnestly can't see coming from town. You're one of them but you're getting better so things might change after review.

About bussing Lemon so early idk, I thought that was standard play here. Is it not?

[Sagittarius]

rb: You're misunderstanding me.

rb: You had two distinct opportunities to protest against the strategy in 82 and 97. You ignored both. And Tarkus' post should've told you he misinterpreted your disagreement with confusion, but you didn't correct him. You clearly didn't intend to discourage the strategy at that point.

I'm not talking about whether or not people claimed. I'm talking about why you didn't discourage the strategy, when you were here, even if you are so against it. Regardless of how many people claimed, if you're against it, you should say something about it, no? Your "expression of dislike" was only "i have no idea why we're bp claiming" which is arguably not an expression of dislike at all because it can be misinterpreted as confusion and was, by Tarkus in 97, which you quoted in 119, so you must've seen it, but you didn't correct it, so I'm thinking you have ulterior motives here. You replied to 82 with 83 and didn't say anything about "the new meta" when you could've said anything like "the new meta is bad." You can think this case is shit, but is it clearer now?

Uhh gotta go I was going to add more stuff but it'll have to wait.

Creature: Here's my current list, ignoring pre-flip associations.

Aatami
Loopdan
Pyra
EccentricLemon
Tarkus
Creature
Fykus
rb

have 1 sec to tack this on or something but uhh re: fykus: yeeaaaah I looked over his ISO and it's not really rubbing good on me, something something buddying with loopdan, something something tone I'll elaborate later when I have time bye

[Sagittarius]

Tarkus: No, I'm not following. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If I scumread two people then I townread the others because there are only two scum slots. Doesn't mean I won't ever change them and I'm open to hearing why I'm wrong. I don't see what is preventing a rb/Fykus team either but if you have quotes to support it go ahead.

As for Creature, he's actually pretty null in terms of personal opinion, town in terms of reads for the reason I said earlier. I don't have him higher up because I don't like how he seems to be doing his own thing but I don't have him as scum because idk if it's a gripe with his playstyle or if it's something legitimately scummy.

Creature: Why not? I think he's being pretty transparent about what he's trying to do and I like transparency. Good players can fake it but it's kind of stupid to trash a read just because of "what ifs." Sometimes the easiest explanation is the right one.

[Sagittarius]

Your emphasis on being town is kinda awkward dude

[Sagittarius]

but to answer your question just read the past few pages and tell us what you think before catching up on the entire thread.

[Sagittarius]

Tarkus: Yes. I do. I don't see any associations that would tie him to rb. But I don't see anything that would eliminate him as rb's teammate either. Therefore rb/fykus can be a thing, at least to me.

About Creature. He really is. I don't like naked reads without follow up. I also don't like people ignoring ongoing discussion. He's done both. Trust me, if I wanted to throw shade, I would've done it on someone I can actually mislynch.

Fykus: I know what you're talking about but I think it means nothing. Idk how much value MS places on meta but I'm not big on it for a few reasons. Thanks for the link though.

ETA: Pyra actually nailed one of the aforementioned reasons, good job. Don't think it's scummy though

[Sagittarius]

Nobody gets cleared after any lynch, the fuck

I'm not new to mafia, but I'm new to MS. Haven't played on here in years lol

[Sagittarius]

Creature: I'm not scumreading you. Idk if the latter is AI. It depends on your playstyle which I'm not familiar with. But I still don't like it.

[Sagittarius]

Yes.

[Sagittarius]

I got really goddamn sick so if you need something from me in particular just yell at me

Two days for a deadline doesn't sound too good , sounds like people are still in pressure mode jsntead of lynch mode

For me;

Preferred lynch target is still rb although idk if anyone is on board anymore. bother me for a point by point case, it's not just the BP thing
Fykus is second preferred lynch target, "
can compromise onto Lemon
Will throw a hissy fit if we lynch anyone else. Probably. Idk I'm tired . bye

[Sagittarius]

lol Fykus is pulling the "lynch me and you'll regret it" card

Dude I've had my vote on rb for days

rb case:

- the bp thing, to summarize, is basically me saying it's suspicious that rb didn't discourage the PROPOSAL when it was first suggested despite him being so against it. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT CLAIMS to make it explicitly clear because apparently that was a huge misunderstanding

- the destro thing, I mentioned earlier; rb replied to this and said he outlined why he thought the push was good which 1) isn't true, look at his ISO, he just said he agreed with accountant's push but didn't outline it 2) wasn't what I was asking, I was asking how he independently came to think Destro was, in rb's words, "probscum." That is what behaviour Destro did to ping rb off. He never elaborated on this. Evidence: ISO 26 ("dunno what Destro even did") to 35 ("probscum"), posts in between only addressed to accountant, nothing about WHY he was reading destro the way he was.

- his push on me, accusing me of not taking a real stance on destro when I did. to be fair he did drop this but it'd be one thing if I actually fencesat but I explicitly stated my stance after he asked and he still kept pushing on it.

look in my ISO for evidence for points 1 and 3

Apparently rb is playing to his town meta though idk what his town meta is but it would be helpful if people explained what makes them think that way. @@creature

intent to vote Fykus if tide doesn't change

. Will catch up on other shit later

[Sagittarius]

Actually where the fuck is Aatami, their last post was on the 16th but they were on yesterday

[Sagittarius]

k
VOTE: fykus
L-1

[Sagittarius]

seriously
idk what you're expecting but alright

[Sagittarius]

your role takes 3 seconds to post unless you're scum then you'll probably delay it until your lunch break despite having time to say you're going to delay it until your lunch break

[Sagittarius]

oh ok
well I may or may not be here for the lynch, still sick and shit but I'll try to be around to change my vote if something happens
don't ask me for big posts though or I might puke on you

btw the loopdan thing, is it just meta based or did he do something in this game in particular or what

[Sagittarius]

oh ok

meant to ask earlier but how far can you get without looking into player meta?
is it a big thing that is expected of everyone or is it an optional play style sorta thing?

[Sagittarius]

hahahaha idek what your case on rb was fykus

[Sagittarius]

I completely missed the bottom half of 325. I noticed Fykus was softing PR but I was doubtful because it's something I've noticed scum does a lot, but that was pretty specific, and risky. Really sorry, Fykus.

Back to rb then. I have a shit ton of things going on so idk if I'll have time to formally reread and readjust my reads for this so that'll have to wait. Though I'll say Lemon is still very possibly his scumbuddy I just don't want her dead today.

VOTE: rb

[Sagittarius]

Millennium: sure Fykus has done questionable things but what makes you disbelieve his claim?
What specifically made you agree with the pressure on rb? Why didn't you vote him?

I was thinking over this game last night and may have time to compile a backup case but TL;DR Destro was fine, Pyra's iffy; gotta look over Creature; depending on answer millennium/aatami slot may be reviewed too.

Everyone else is ok in my book except lemon but I already went over her and rb's a given.

[Sagittarius]

Damn it, I forgot to do shit over the night.

Anyway, if Fykus isn't lying and the cop isn't Fykus, a cop claim will out him as the doctor. Obviously the mafia knows what he is depending on whether they attacked him last night, but they might've not, so I'd rather not give out unnecessary information. Although idk why they wouldn't unless they were absent the entire time.

CALLED IT BTW. I've been laughing at the flip for hours. Mafia roleblocker. Mafia rb. ahahahaha

Wait, how do we know that there's a cop/doctor? Someone could have lied about them not being bp (not sure why they would but still) and having both a bp and a jailkeeper would make it more likely for no one to have died.

Well if you put it that way, we don't know. Fykus claimed he knew the BP didn't exist though so unless he's pulling some crazy ass plot and the BP/Jailkeeper didn't counterclaim for some reason then it's almost surely cop/doc.

[Sagittarius]

Lemon > Pyra > Creature > Loop > Tarkus > Fykus

[Sagittarius]

Oh I forgot Milennium lol. Hmm, probably goes after Pyra

[Sagittarius]

I can't believe I hard defended scum right when I replaced in
but hey alright, you go fykus

VOTE: Pyra

think that's the hammer

[Sagittarius]

I actually caught onto fykus thinking loopdan the other pr but I thought it was because of loop's insistence on the finishing of the bp claims

"pleasantly surprised" was referring to him thinking accountant was scum I'm 99% sure

funnily enough I was reading creature's wiki page yesterday and saw the section on how to read him and went "oh" so that was fun

[Sagittarius]

Thanks for modding Huntress.

Was a fine game. I did learn a lot, about others' play and my own. It was nice to meet you all, and I appreciate the chance to have played with you. Until next time. :)