Mini 1895: Shaziro Mafia - GAME OVER

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Boop.

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VOTE: IAlwaysWinSometimes

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i said sorry :X

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cooldog, this game was really nice and pleasant. Is there a reason you feel the need to inject so much rudeness? And to not vote for IAlwaysAmScumThisGame?

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VOTE: Boonskiies buddying the lynch victim

Is there a reason you decided to leave the wagon on scum before even looking at their scummy reaction? It's somewhat moot since you switched to voting for different scum but.

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Eddie can be town.

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https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _All_Liars
then.

Because I'm not a degenerate who claims lover on page 3 even out of a joke.

#throwbackthursday to when people actually subscribed to LaL

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Does anyone have any ideas who's scum with iaws and boon? I'm having a lot of trouble figuring it out

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IAlwaysWinSometimes(3)- implosion, DeathRowKitty, horrordude0215

Is this RVS or serious? From what I've read so far it is a joky wag wag.

I am quite curious about this question because it shouldn't have been necessary to ask.

Seems fabricated. It would obviously be Eddie at this point...

He's literally the one person I called town.

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alright so we have eddie town, we have desully town, we have drk likely town, cooldog likely town, [some other people?]

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oh man that cmm wagon is pretty slick

Unvote

VOTE: CMM

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alright let's just go ahead and quotestripe everything about page 5. Going to try to avoid getting into any long theory discussions unless I wind up being in the mood for them later but etc.

Cool dog likely town? Please explain

His immediate aggressive posturing towards the lovers claim was imo less likely to come from scum.

And explain desully also

85 and 87 read as a genuine early attempt to make sense of things.

Why do people insist on making town lists ?? What value is in it??

Lots.
-It helps me keep track of my reads so that I can reference what I was feeling at various points of the game later.
-It makes my thought process more transparent, which makes me more readable.
-It helps to limit the pool of people that I feel the need to examine more closely, at least in early days.
-It allows me to see peoples' own takes on those reads, and see them question those that they disagree with so that I can disavow myself of them if others have legitimate counterarguments that I agree with.
Etc, etc.

no clue, read lists are stupid and should never be done

1 disagree but 2 my post is not really classifiable as a reads list. I listed four townreads and left everyone else unspecified. It was more intended to be my current take on the game rather than a reads list, even if it is essentially an abridged one.

If this wasn't RVS this would be such a shockingly poor reason to join a wagon.

Still don't like it.

@Implosion is this vote serious?

Well that depends on what you mean by serious.
If by serious you mean that it's a vote with intent to lynch, then no. If by serious you mean a vote with intent to display that he's the person I currently find scummiest, then no. If by serious you mean a non-arbitrary vote with purpose behind it, then yes.

Incidentally, Superhans, you didn't answer my query in 95 - care to? Just to make it explicit, why did you feel the need to question the seriousness of a wagon that was clearly not serious (given that the person being voted literally hadn't posted)?

there isn't any. It just gives scum good nk targets.

Did you know that the mafia can

also read the game and figure out who looks town?

And that by saying who you think is scum, you're implicitly saying who you think is town? And that they already have good nk targets by just looking at people who no one is suspicious of/who have good reads?

I'm tired of refuting this argument, as a player who finds it often easier to townhunt than scumhunt.

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have you seen cooldog's play before

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(granted i don't think i have but from what i know of him on the forum in general i can definitely see that post as genuine)

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Somebody who makes jokes should have totally seen that claim as a joke

...sometimes people miss things?

in particular i feel like cooldog is the kind of person who'd possibly take something like that literally. This isn't from scanning random games, this is from having seen him post on ms for years in discussion forums. And i certainly don't think he'd lie as scum about thinking that it was legitimate when he knew it was a joke. it's mostly moot anyway. it's not a strong read.

Do you think he's scum lying about having thought it was serious? What is the scum motivation for lying about something so arbitrary when everyone else would obviously know it's a joke?

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and making jokes is different from the context of how he said he doesn't have a sense of humor. like

Somebody who makes jokes should have totally seen that claim as a joke

this is such a weird thing to say... it like doesn't reflect reality at all at least not the reality i'm familiar with
maybe drk was right :V

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in practice, scum don't generally lie about very overt things like that unless there's a very strong reason. i don't have strong evidence for that assertion but i very strongly suspect it's true.

if cooldog is scum i am quite confident that he genuinely thought it wasn't a joke.

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it's not even meta it's literally acknowledging the fact that different people are differently likely to be able to detect a joke jesus christ

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yes cooldog those posts do look pretty dumb together when you ignore the explanatory post that is 140 that came between them

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@Implosion ur vote on ConMan was super poor. Even poorer to take it back by saying you now scum read him.

If you don't want him lynched, why vote? You're not being transparent.

I thought it was implicit in my not thinking he was scum. Early wagons are often a matter of seeing what happens with them/how the person being wagoned reacts/how others react to generate information. The second of these obviously flubbed because cmm hasn't been here and now there are no real wagons.

if cooldog is scum i am quite confident that he genuinely thought it wasn't a joke.

What if Cool Dog is town?

...then he genuinely thought it wasn't a joke by default, because if he's town then I'm assuming he wasn't lying about something like that and it doesn't really make sense to even consider the possibility of it imo.

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The wagon was composed of 3/4 of the people I'd just called town.

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The difference in you and Implosion, is that your cases are different, and I've read them differently.

there is a significant difference in your play and Implosions play, and it is within that difference that i draw different reads.

When you are asked "what is the difference between x and y," saying "the difference is that they're different" is not helpful in communicating your point. DRK is pretty clear about what was similar, and some of the reasoning you cited certainly applies to both of us, in particular:

Implosion straight up said he was sheeping, you were far less transparent.

you specifically accused me of (originally) not being transparent, and DRK was pretty explicitly being very transparent (she literally said "i'm going to sheep the first person who does this" and then sheeped the first person who did it, while saying "i'm following through on my having said that i'm going to sheep the first person who does this"...)

I'd argue that I was significantly less transparent; i said I was sheeping when I was asked about it, DRK said she was sheeping before she even made her vote.

I object less to the reasoning within your post where you voted her (i still disagree with it) but post 173 is very strange.

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horrordude's post is good, but probably not especially telling for his alignment. I agree with him that these past few pages have been not super productive. It's mostly just material to read hans with and I'm not sure how to interpret it yet. For lack of more tactful phrasing he seems fairly full of himself (calling me lynchbait when I have 0 non-RVS votes on me and 0 people calling me scum, his general attitude interacting towards DRK, etc) but i'm not sure how to interpret it strongly. Gut says town but not strongly at all.

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i don't think it's worth really arguing this further unless i get a stronger townread on cooldog and he's under more pressure. I simply disagree that it's likely scum-motivated. It's certainly possible; I think it's extremely unlikely.

I agree with this. In fact, I think there's actual pro town aspect to joke claiming. Wifom's the scum team wondering about if they should shoot said jokers or not. Drawing a NK is good work if you aren't a strong PR.

i hope you aren't serious.

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i mean serious about that actually being an effective strategy.

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you continue to come off as mostly town, and he comes off fairly neutrally. I disagree with the angle of attacking the lovers claim because it has no motivation, but I can understand it as being reasonable enough for that early into the game if you think that the claim is serious. I still don't agree with the attack even assuming that he did think it was a serious claim but I don't find it particularly scummy.

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Implosions last posts all scream LAMIST.

This is a questionable-at-best use of that term. 231 is strictly a clarification, 233 is part of a conversation and 235 is me answering an explicit question. None of them are me talking about myself. I can sort of see what you're referring to with 231 if you're accusing me of just trying to look transparent? which is still inaccurate.

Rly.
I think LAMIST can be pretty good with players who are noob. (Not excluding myself).

Yep, just me, the noob who's been on this site for >6 years
(you are really stretching my ability to not be condescending)

ALso, obviously imp is making a mountain out of a mole-hill, but I'm not sure that it is scummy.

What are you referring to? I feel like I've spent most of the past x pages trying (and failing) to explain why the case on you is bad, which is more like making a mole-hill out of a mountain.

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I really feel like I have nothing to do with my vote right now that makes me very happy. Let's try this I guess.

Unvote

VOTE: havingfitz

You've entirel been pretty opaque about what you're thinking - why the cooldog vote? Have you gotten anything out of any of the questions you've asked?

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Wheme is probably town.

Not a fan of Imp's Post 47. IAWS has done virtually nothing (i.e. most of his wagon at this point is RVS I assume) and yet Imp is giving CMM some shit for moving off IAWS.

@ Imp...Why are IAWS and Boon scum?

I've been known to be facetious at times.

Imp shines a little shade (IMO) on Hans...

Believe me I have been tempted to shine quite a bit more.

OK...so imp is probably calling Boon scum for OMGUS (yes?)...but decides to get off his scum!IAWS wagon and hop on the wagon scum!Boon just exited. Also happens to be the largest wagon.

I don't actually think boon is scum (nor did I then). He's null for me atm.

implosion makes nice well-reasoned posts but I'm not sure that they are getting anywhere. Kind of like a butterfly just flittering around looking for a good spot to land.

This is frankly accurate. I feel like I've accomplished relatively little with my posting overall.

I hope to change that in the near future.

why does having nothing to do with your vote make you happy?

This is a misinterpretation. I said the opposite.

If I'm being "opaque" ask me a question.

What a coincedence! I asked you two literally immediately after calling you opaque... did you like, not notice that those were questions? ?????

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Unvote

VOTE: Twoface

DRK said it was the next wagon

His push on cooldog in particular (compared to other peoples') feels really one-dimensional. It feels like scum who has latched on to what they believe is an easy-to-justify tunnel. It seems like essentially every single thing that cooldog posts, he finds some scum motivation for. That doesn't look to me like a townie who is objectively trying to evaluate individual posts for which alignment they're indicative of; it looks like scum who thinks that they have found someone that they can list good logical reasons for voting, and so has decided to latch onto the read and push it because they know that they'll be able to look accurately logical in pushing it.

It conceivably could be town tunneling really badly but cooldog in particular in this game is, IMO, the kind of "easy mislynch" that is very attractive to scum (assuming that I'm right that he's town, which is of course not a given, but bear with me). Cooldog has posted a lot of very at-face-value jarring things, like calling out the claim early and criticizing the cmm wagon that he was on. These things are, IMO, really not alignment-indicative when you look past the surface of them (in the former case, as I've argued, scum empirically don't lie about things like thinking that a claim like that is a real claim, and this is further supported by fitz's thinking that it might have been real; in the latter case, his cmm vote was purely rvs while at least mine wasn't).

It's also not alignment-indicative but I absolutely despise this attitude:

everyone says that, yet I never have a crazy reaction when people I think are scum flip. most of the time I am right and when I am wrong, i don't really care because it was them that played like scum, so they deserved it.

Saying that everyone you vote for deserved it is a surefire way to never improving your ability to read people. A mislynch is everyone's fault in different proportions that can never really be objectively evaluated. If you think someone is scummy and other people think they're towntelling and you were wrong it's your own damn fault for being wrong and not seeing the towntells for what they were, not that person's fault for being scummy.

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IAWS is also a good candidate for scum right now; the trepidation in 239 feels a bit off to me. If you feel like other people are going off flimsy evidence, you should be able to cite cases where you think that they're going off of evidence that is so flimsy that they probably don't believe what they're saying. It feels a little bit more like scum-out-of-their-element than the other way around. Not drastically though. I don't make a ton of their wheme vote.

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also @boon my only memory of you is lynching you when you were scum so

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sometimes people deserve being mislynched. take momo or even wheme honestly. if you're going to play a trolly low effort game and you get lynched that's on you.

Unfortunately this is not how you win games as town!

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@imp - if a player intentionally lied in a manor to deceive everyone in the game. Is that AI to you? Answer and explain your reasoning

Wow, not a leading question at all!

First, no, I would not say that this is a specific enough action to be alignment-indicative on its own. That's an extremely general action. There are tons of different ways to lie.

To answer the question that you're obviously intending to ask, I don't think cooldog has lied. If i'm reading correctly the lies are:
1) the thinking the claim was real, which I've argued about extensively and pointed out that havingfitz

also thought it was real.

Did fitz lie too? Are they both scum for that?
2) the "premeditated" thing, where he says to wait for the vote-prodded response, then accuses wheme of only posting when prodded by votes. This is a much better point than point 1 actually, I'd say it's worth some amount of scumpoints for cooldog, but over my years on this site I have discovered and accounted for what was probably my largest bias: thinking that logic is indicative of town. It isn't, and the reverse holds as well: incorrect logic is not indicative of scum.

It's possible that cooldog set that up to try to make wheme look facetiously scummy, but (a) that's not a particularly strong way of getting others to agree with you because we'll obviously see through it and (b)

it doesn't exactly take a lot to paint wheme as scummy

. Wheme is a player who naturally obscures his opinions and it's very easy to push a case on him; there's no need for scum-cooldog to go out of his way like this. It's still possible and so he gets some amount of scum points for that, but it's perfectly possible as well that he is simply perceiving the game through a different lens that we are. Maybe he didn't realize that wheme had been posting earlier, maybe he has some other explanation; he hasn't commented since it.

To be completely honest, it's actually grating on my nerves to defend his point. I agree with you that cooldog's point here is absolutely terrible. But I see it more strongly as bad play than as scummy play. I completely see the train of thought and I don't fault you for scumreading him for it even if you are wrong. I've just seen too many players saying stupid things as town to think that it's as heavily scum-indicative as you're saying you think it is.

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I've played a couple marathon games with him but that's mostly based on him explicitly saying earlier that he likes to keep his thoughts to himself.

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It's not a leading question. Cooldog has done this multiple times (at least twice).

You act as though this is established fact when like 3 people are telling you that it's not.
It's a leading question because the question makes assumptions implicit that other people are not accepting.

If you end up being town, I know to basically never play with you again cause you're one of the people who's enabling terrible play on this site.

Hang on a minute. What exactly do you mean here? You think we should lynch cooldog simply for playing terribly? Do you think that I should be happy to vote for cooldog because I agree that he's playing terribly, even though I think he's town? When you see someone who's playing terribly but you think that they're town, do you vote for them?

Townies don't do those things, or at least they shouldn't

And (apart from the fact that you're tunnelvisioning yourself into assuming that he is lying without considering the alternative at all), here is the heart of the matter: shouldn't. I agree. Don't. I disagree. They do. Townies do play badly. Lynching players for playing badly is not how you win games as town! I agree that general quality of play as a whole is lower than ideal but the way to solve that isn't by policy lynching, it's by teaching people to play better and learning to see things from others' perspectives (the latter of which you are very clearly indicating an inability to do).

You might not think that it's a policy lynch but from what I can tell you're implying that the rest of us should treat it like one even if we disagree with your reasoning on why it's scummy.

[implosion]

I frankly think the cooldog discussion is bogging the game down and distracting from being able to read other slots as effectively because the arguments are sort of lost in themselves and i think both sides have seen each others arguments and made up their mind. I'm going to try to avoid talking about it from here on out unless new arguments are made.

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If anyone thinks wheme is scum after the way he claimed that then they are giving him way too much credit (no offense). No way he fakes that with the amount of experience he has.

[implosion]

These have been some much more useful pages. Tempted to townlean on boon but I have a lot of trepidation in doing that so I'm not actually going to, iaws is i think no longer scummy because of 535 which I think looks genuine. He's probably town.

I'm quite a fan of horrordude's posting in general but I still have yet to get an inkling of his alignment.

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Wheme is more or less locktown to me; I cannot imagine myself scumreading him at any point pretty much.

I agree with boon that 448 from superhans is quite sketchy. I honestly think the way wheme claimed is really really obviously town and that post looks like it's trying to obfuscate the claim and make it so less information is gleaned from it. Essentially I'm put off by his initial reaction to focus entirely on the literal role that was claimed without paying any heed whatsoever to the way in which it was claimed.

[implosion]

But we're convinced for entirely disparate reasons:

because i wasnt convinced on the claim at first, but fruit vendor is literally the worst role for scum to try and claim, unless he actually is scum fruitseller, but i think the nature of that role makes it unlikely.

at first you threw doubt on the claim, and then shifted discourse towards saying the fact of claiming fruit vendor meant that he was town.

My problem isn't that shift, it's the fact that when you first considered the claim, you essentially looked it as "someone is claiming fruit vendor in a vacuum: are they town or scum" rather than actually looking at Wheme's posts where he claimed and evaluating those specific posts, which is the part that I thought was very transparently obvious as town.

Different people will see different things etc so it's not super strong but I think trying to evaluate the claim as a claim in a vacuum rather than a claim that was made by this player in this way is a scummy instinct. It lets you as scum evaluate things in what feels like a more objective way, essentially it lets you if you're scum make arguments about things that you actually believe.

[implosion]

i'll say some more about iaws (and continue trying to re-evaluate him which i'm sort of having difficulty doing?) later today but am lazy at this moment
my gut wants to call horrordude scum for no particular reason!

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ironically i started looking at iaws more and a certain part of his post jumped out at me as the part that i viscerally gut townread, and then i looked at drk's post and it's the specific part that she called out as scummy.

It's certainly odd to ask someone else to make a case on someone to justify your continued voting of them; i think if he's town it's sort of his acknowledging his own cognitive dissonance on the matter, and when i read those sentences they just don't sound like something that make sense for scum to type out, look at, say "huh, this sounds like a good idea to say" and then click the submit button. Which is an awful argument in general, but is also bad because i don't know anything of iaws's play and they're new on the site.

This doesn't stop me from still having a visceral reaction to it of "scum wouldn't say this", though.

[implosion]

Deadline's looming and I like this more than cooldog.

I also don't actually have any solid scumreads yet which is unfortunate. just vague suspicion in several directions. Alas.

Unvote

VOTE: IAlwaysWinSometimes

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If a hans flashwagon appeared i'd probably join it but i don't see that as especially likely.

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viewtopic.php?p=9042478#p9042478

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considering it.

i'll consider it more tomorrow if anything might happen but right now i'd rather keep pressure on making the two likely lynches resolve the way i prefer.

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Why the switch from iaws to cool dog, boon?

[implosion]

I didn't ask you

[implosion]

I'll hammer an hour before deadline if I have to.

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Man guys this game is so pleasant I'm having so much fun right now and I'm glad everyone else is too

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There's a part of me that's happy with a cool dog lynch because either he's scum or he's town in which case maybe the people who are acting like gods of mafia will learn a shred of humility but nah that's just a pipe dream

[implosion]

I'm not a massive fan of it either. I'm just less of a fan of the cool dog wagon. I agree with horrordude that this day has not been very conducive to getting strong reads in general.

[implosion]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: cooldog

Just hammer it horrordude. This is ultimately the pragmatically better lynch in the event that they're both town which at this point is my best guess. I don't want 100% of rhetoric tomorrow to revolve around cool dog again.

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I actually finally have a townread on horror assuming cd townflip. I don't think he has any reason to waffle to iaws and back as scum when I already said I'd deadline hammer cd. Not sure what to think of him if cd flips scum, will take more thought then but if cd flips scum we should have a trove of info to look at in general so etc

[implosion]

I just want to have a nice game where people stop calling each other idiots for dissenting opinions.

Is that too much to ask?

[implosion]

):

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I think you're obvtown at this point horrordude fwiw.

I'll say a nice variety of carefully chosen words about things when I get home.

[implosion]

Alright. Here's my current view of the game:

horrordude is town because his play late yesterday doesn't make very much sense as scum, his entrance today is very consistent with town-who-didn't-have-time-yesterday moreso than scum, the way he's interacting with twoface looks really genuine and the reasons for voting him are crap. Yes, he didn't do very much yesterday; yes, he didn't persuade you to hop of cooldog well; these are not alignment indicative.

IAWS is probably town. I agree with eddie about the way he talked about claiming sounding more town than scum.

TwoFace is town. I don't remember my specific reason for this at the moment but i had a reason when i was looking at things at work and iirc it was pretty good.

DeathRowKitty is probably town. This is more of a gut feel thing than anything in particular; her play feels much more like what I remember of her town play. Or at least, the way she's interacting with the game is more reminiscent of how she plays as town.

Wheme is still locktown.

Desully is still likely town, though this read needs some work.

Eddie also needs re-evaluation but i still think most of what he's saying pings me as town.

That leaves Kop, fitz, and hans. Of these, Kop is a great scum candidate right now because i had vague scummy vibes from cmm that i always wanted to investigate more but never got the chance to and the one thing he talked significantly about yesterday was the prospect of leading the fruit vendor which is a very easy thing for scum to make noise about in either direction and is kind of a crappy reason to scumread someone imo. fitz effectively made one post yesterday, called wheme scum and cooldog town, hasn't had any meaningful interactions really, needs to engage more. Hans is also a great scum candidate both because of lingering things from yesterday and because the boon kill points in his direction.

I'd like to engage more directly with fitz and kop and hans and hear what their take on the current game state is seeing as none have posted yet today.

[implosion]

My two biggest scumspects still haven't even posted ^_^'

[implosion]

My two biggest scumspects still haven't even posted ^_^'

Who are they and why?

Hans and kop for reasons outlined in my one wall post today.

At work, I'll engage more substantively later.

[implosion]

Since both fitz and now you have asked:

If so why would scum ever receive my role In a normal game that are balanced

Do I count as a PR?

Why would scum softclaim his role page 1

I'll try to give my reasons later

it's later

Sorry I will try when I get on computer.

Quick question, does my role confirm me as town? If so why not cause I don't see scum ever getting my
Role in a normal game

to put it quite simply, Wheme does not have enough experience to fake any of these posts as scum. Especially the first and the fourth.

VOTE: Superhans

[implosion]

actually

Unvote

thought there were fewer than 3 on him already, don't want any risk of early day end when his slot is sitting on being replaced and Kop hasn't posted and is likely going to be replaced too.

[implosion]

So you stand by scumreading me for writing off wheme's claim as town... for the exact same reason that you are writing off wheme's claim as town?

The only other thing you've said about me that you've found scummy was my sheeping onto the cmm wagon d1 (and it's reasonable to find that scummy, it just happens to be incorrect).

[implosion]

Ah.

The behavior surrounding Wheme's claim makes it all the more believable that he is town.

I interpreted this as wheme's behavior.

Saying "I'm townreading him because of 477" is also a bit silly after i explicitly elaborated two pages ago.

[implosion]

Nope. That's good.

VOTE: DRK

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It still boils down to "too dumb to scum", which is little more than a paraphrase of 477.

Yep. More accurate.
Still pretty confident it's correct.
IMO, he has more or less townslipped, which is something that only inexperienced players are capable of. I can think of one other case ever where I considered someone in an ms forum game to have hard-townslipped (a newbie who acted as though the kill from the previous night was still alive). It's not common but that doesn't mean it's poor reasoning.

[implosion]

I would like it if superhans got replaced and the replacement contributed and kop either started posting at all or got replaced.

I don't think we need to prolong the day beyond that. I don't think we

need

to prolong the day until that far but i'm happy to.

I'll also likely be joining the hans wagon pretty immediately tomorrow unless his replacement does something pretty crazy.

[implosion]

Miller is possible, but i'd expect DRK to claim it on day one.
Framers aren't allowed in normal games on MS.

[implosion]

(i did look at her first few posts for miller crumbs before getting bored though)

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If the game is as simple as DRK/hans/kop then that's just kind of boring tbh. It probably isn't just because i feel like games never really wind up being that simple.

[implosion]

Yes, millers here know that they're millers, and they flip as millers.

[implosion]

Heading to work and only skimmed so more later (what happened to all the Hans bloodlust?) but important missing context: drk and I basically joined this game because we hadn't played a game together in a really long time. Note that we both pre inned.

[implosion]

We mostly played on irc. Yes, very different. It's also enough years ago that I'm not surprised that I was wrong about conclusions drawn from it. Point isn't the existence of specific meta, point is that we have history and posts like 15 really shouldn't be read deeply into.

I feel like the tl;dr right now is 1, you guys are reading way too 1-dimensionally into the posts of a role whose job is explicitly to frame people, and 2, scum killed boon and now stone cold who literally said he would not stop tunneling the hans slot today.

[implosion]

I don't know why reads are changing as a result of the drk flip drastically from yesterday. We already basically knew she was scum. The thing that's new information (other than her being traitor rather than full fledged) is the stone cold kill... and it's reasonable to think that *that* could point to me but more reasonable to think that onei realized that scum were screwed if sc was alive tunneling.

Traitors job is to not get nked yes but not by overtly signaling to the mafia bc then if they die they basically lose. Drk is a competent player; she isn't going to have left a very overt message just to communicate her traitorness. The way you avoid getting nked as traitor is to have bad reads and she basically voted Hans for being obtuse and then unvoted him 2 posts later. Hardly something that can't be distancing. Hardly something that would make scum want to kill her.

[implosion]

So. my reads right now look something like this, from scum->town:

Oneironaut ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kop ~ Fitz ~~~ horror, eddie, twoface ~~~~~ Wheme ~ IAWS.

where horror/eddie/twoface are generically townreads that I'm not really interested in right now, wheme is still locktown, iaws is obviously town barring some hilarity (he could theoretically be a mafia cop but lol no), oneironaut is really really scum, and kop is ever so slightly more likely than fitz to be his partner imo but not for any strong reason other than gut atm.

The single biggest reason to think that oneironaut is scum is that Stone Cold died last night, and this is more valuable information to me than it is to other people because his top two scumreads were hans and me. I have no idea why twoface thinks scum-hans-slot wouldn't kill two people in a row that suspected him, especially when hans would have made the first kill and oneironaut would have made the second (meaning there might not have been a train of thought there). But basically oneironaut-scum getting lynched today is probably game over for the scum, because they're left with 1 alive going into 7p with 2 mislynches, they haven't managed to kill a single power role (and they're clearly assuming that there's a protective role out there since IAWS is alive and blocked), and the existence of wheme and IAWS as basically un-mislynchable slots complicates things beyond all that.

Beyond that, onei's posting isn't particularly stellar either. His one action so far was to criticize fitz for buddying him. He's attacking fitz for posting walls, which is entirely stylistic and a very easy point to get into the ground and look like you're starting to contribute to the game. He accuses fitz of buddying but doesn't really explain why townreading his slot is in and of itself a scummy thing to do; he merely says that he wouldn't if he didn't know that he was town. A bunch of his specific points are really, really reaching to the point where I find it difficult to believe that a townie could believe them to be true (DRK used small text in 25, where it was clearly there, therefore DRK was trying to obfuscate/communicate to scumbuddies? fitz sought clarification on the lover claim... therefore he was fishing???)

The latter of those points in particular looks like scum making shit up to fit the narrative that they're pushing. It's also probably not a bus (I don't think scum would be particularly likely to bus in this particular situation), which means it's probably not onei+fitz.

Beyond all this I have a theory on DRK's play this game which is that part of the reason she was so apathetic was that she didn't like her scumteam or thought that they wouldn't be able to win. I say this because it fits with hans-scum, because DRK clearly didn't think hans was competent. It would also fit with kop/cmm-scum.

[implosion]

Incidentally this is one of the better posts I've seen in a while:

that's not an answer

By definition, any response to the question is an answer.

Anyway.
VOTE: Oneironaut

[implosion]

it's a lot of wifom. killing boon and stone who both clearly scumread hans is a good frame, but at a certain point you have to stop and think if you need to actually listen to their reads.

To say a bit more about this.

MS site meta has shifted very drastically in the very stupid direction of not paying any attention at all to who is NKed, or having a first assumption of "oh, they died? It must be a frame on whoever their scumreads were."

This just isn't how things work in practice.

Scum don't kill to frame as a first instinct; this is ESPECIALLY true in a meta where people are looking less and less at nightkills. This game is sort of my go-to anecdote; scum killed MariaR n1 even though she wasn't a particularly noteworthy poster in terms of content or sway on the game. Her reads were really good. And yet peoples' first instinct was "it must have been a frame" (shadow_step was town, I was town, boring was scum who Maria was pushing, and this was particularly frustrating to me because I spent the whole game tunneling boring).

Your first thought when you see scum kill two people whose first suspect was the same person, and when that person has done nothing that looks especially town on their own, should not be "oh it must be a frame."

Scum kill people who are active and obviously town, or people who they think are power roles, or people who have good reads. Killing people who have good reads wins games. Scum may be framing people in the former two cases but scum rarely kill with the main intention of framing unless the scum themselves are near-universally townread.

[implosion]

Cause people already suspected him. This slot had to know that they were most likely going to be lynched next if scum. At that point, with the advice of whoever their partner is, you really think they'd go after yet another person gunning for them and drawing even more attention to him?

...yes.
Notice how if stone cold were alive, he'd be tunneling the slot and yelling at everyone
notice how someone else is at L-1
notice how IT ISN'T DRAWING ATTENTION TO HIM because you keep saying they wouldn't have done it because it would draw attention to him.
notice how this is how mafiascum's meta hasa worked for a while now.
framing is a "valid strategy" but it doesn't actually work and i can't remember any instances of it while i can remember PLENTY Of instances of scum killing people that suspected them.

[implosion]

Don't you think it's likely that the only reason stone died was because he fake softed doc?

I mean, if scum are really dumb or read too far into things then sure it's possible >_>

stone cold would have had no reason whatsoever to softclaim there in that way as an actual doctor. It's not like "IAWS might live through the night" is useful information to the town at large at that point.

[implosion]

Going back to this. Your wall post didn't have good reasons for hans.

I figured it would be more pertinent to talk about oneironaut since no one really has and plenty of people have discussed hans.

What do you (or others) think of the points I make on oneironaut?

[implosion]

I actually think fitzs recent reactions have been moderately town. I'll justify that and talk more about Hans tonight.

Why is kop not in your list of suspects?

[implosion]

So you're blindly following a player because they're not on the Con wagon, placing your vote on an equally weak wagon.

VOTE: DeathRowKittyCat

I don't mind that you're on a weak wagon (it's RVS so it's NAI), but i do feel uneasy that you think you can place a vote without committing any of your own perspective.

Hope that makes sense.

With that said. If kop/drk are a team. I don't think hans is the partner.

Why would scum hans attack drk for trying to get heat off scum cmm?

He didn't? He attacked her for refusing to commit. His reasoning didn't really have to do with Cmm. Remember scum didn't know drk was traitor so this attack makes plenty of sense as Hans seeing a townie doing something sketchy and attacking them for it.

[implosion]

Me

[implosion]

re: fitz. My inclination to townread his recent responses is mostly a result of the tone that he's taken with twoface and iaws and in general. 1207 doesn't feel like a scum reaction; that's largely gut though. The description in his next two posts of twoface's play isn't something I'd expect from scum as much as from town; the attitude in 1209 is not something that I particularly expect scum to fake because it doesn't really make him look good on the surface, it just creates more animosity between him and twoface and further cements twoface's tunnel on him (this is assuming twoface is town which i'm willing to do here).

1218 is not the way you claim or softclaim as survivalistic scum.

Essentially, the way he's taking the moral high ground here looks genuine to me. I don't think he's faking the frustration over twoface's play; I think it'd be much more expedient as scum to take a softer stance, try to placate twoface and get him to tunnel elsewhere, etc. I don't think fitz would give up in the way that he is, in a sense. He isn't really actually giving up but he's given up on saying anything to twoface, and the way that he's doing it looks to me like town who is frustrated rather than caught scum. Things like the point-by-point refutation in 1251 cement this because I think fitz as scum doesn't have a good reason to spend so much effort berating twoface over every little point because it doesn't actually accomplish anything for him and he'd just be acting facetiously because he'd know tf was right. On the other hand fitz as town does have reason to make that refutation because he'd be rightly angry over twoface's tunnel. Townies don't always just do everything with the #1 priority of winning the game; lots of actions are motivated by emotion, and in this case it seems more consistent to me that his actions come from town.

[implosion]

peopled talked about a fruit vendor claim for like 3 full pages what the actual eff

I drew basically the opposite conclusions as implosion from all of it? Concerning.

IME, people claiming to believe that something makes them obvious town when it doesn't are scum more often than you would expect by random chance. What makes it actually concerning though in this particular case is that he hadn't been playing up to that point as though he was obvious town, even though he was aware that his predecessor softclaimed fruit vendor. Makes it seem pretty unlikely that he actually believed what he was saying

Superhans, on the other hand, gained some town points from me for his reaction. I thought his reaction made a lot of sense for someone incorporating a bizarre piece of information (fruit vendor??? wtf is that and why would it exist????) into their view of someone who had been a scum read (I can elaborate on how I see his reaction if anyone wants that). If it was a faked reaction, it was well choreographed and Superhans doesn't seem to me like the kind of person who would be particularly good at that.

Ok so I just saw the wheme claim and now I'm confused. If he is truly town, then the OMGUS vote on me is just bitterness/stupidity. I'm still torn though, because I really thought he was scummy. Can someone make a case on how wheme could still be scum? Otherwise I might have to hop off this wagon.

Last but not least, THIS is just horribly scummy. Look at the last two sentences. IAWS apparently doesn't even see how it's possible for WhemeStar to be scum anymore, yet really wants to keep his vote on him? I don't understand at all where implosion got the idea that this post comes across as genuine - is there anything at all about this that's relatable from a town mindset?

Unvote: TwoFace

Vote: IAlwaysWinSometimes

IMO, this also

actually

looks like a traitor->scum interaction wrt hans.

Traitor play is not to signal to scum that you're traitor explicitly early on, because that leaves an obvious trail. Traitor play is to subtly try to manipulate the gamestate to get people to scumread the scum less and scumread townies more, and by doing that you won't be a target for scum to kill because essentially your reads will be "bad".

I had a budding scumread on hans, and drk tried to get me to stop fossing him and focus on iaws instead. And it did work to some degree because I thought she was town.

[implosion]

Actually drk's play on page 7 is also really interesting. It also makes a ton of sense as her being annoyed that hans was counterproductively giving a scumread on her. She gave hans like 5 chances to give a position that made more sense, and then eventually voted him because he wasn't making any sense and she couldn't reasonably justify not voting him. She then unvoted as soon as she made another content post because she didn't want to leave her vote on scum and have them think she wasn't the traitor or apply pressure there.

It makes less sense if hans is town because she could conceivably turn on him at any point in that interaction (without giving him so many chances to say something more sane), and she could have just kept pushing him instead of suddenly dropping her scumread on him and then flipping on him later.

[implosion]

Mislynching today is a big deal. If we hit scum today it puts us in an excellent position of 6:1 with 2 mislynches and no dead power roles (except possibly one tonight).

I still think fitzs recent posts look town.

I should revise my reads list to put two face as significantly more town than either Eddie or horror.

I feel like no one has read my points on oneironaut. Or at least I haven't seen anyone engage with them. Two face just dismissed them out of hand as posts about a player with only 3 posts, without discussing their merit at all.

[implosion]

See 1327 and 1180 respectively about fitz and oneironaut.

[implosion]

I mean, he's done quite a bit of scum hunting in the last couple pages.

[implosion]

What he is doing is basically iso digging and picking out posts. Anyone including scum can do that.

Well yeah. Anyone including scum can do pretty much anything. You can't call fitz scum for not scumhunting, and then when he starts scumhunting say "well anyone could do that." It's a strong indicator that you're not evaluating his posts neutrally, and that you're letting your existing read of him color the way that you're looking at his recent posting.

That said I am curious to hear what he has to say about oneironaut. His difference in reaction to you and oneironaut can be explained i think by him being pissed off at you (or possibly just missing oneironaut's post, which is bad for other reasons). But I would definitely like to hear fitz say more about oneironaut's posturing towards him.

[implosion]

Scum blocked wheme n1 and iaws n2 (unless one of those two is scum and scum didn't block on the respective night, but unlikely). I'm not sure what's weird about that.

Neighborhood is entirely not a tell. It might be possible to glean some information on it after an eventual massclaim but not necessarily. There's no particular likelihood from a setup design standpoint that one of the neighbors is or isn't scum. Just because there's a higher incidence of neighborhoods with one scum and two town in the past, doesn't mean that trend is set in stone or more likely in this game.

Long story short there are much better things to use as tells.

[implosion]

Why would he have been blocked n1? He outed d2.

[implosion]

ooh. missed that. was mostly skimming at work.

[implosion]

Nothing. Typical.

I think we probably massclaim tomorrow. If there's a town roleblocker they probably claim who they targeted, or if someone has some other useful result they claim it, otherwise there's not much useful to claim.

VOTE: Oneironaut

[implosion]

That isn't a lie from wheme. It's literally forgetfulness. He said he couldn't remember saying it.

Oneironaut having his first thing he wants to talk about today be to call wheme out for this kind of "lying" which is completely meaningless from an alignment standpoint and is literally just a rhetorical faux pas regardless of wheme's alignment certainly does not assuage my suspicions of him.

Oneironaut has literally said nothing about what he thinks of Wheme until now. This is the easiest vote in the world to fabricate as scum.

[implosion]

My overall take on the game right now, in short:
-IAWS, I cannot ever see myself voting.
-Wheme, I cannot ever see myself voting.
-TwoFace I find unlikely to be swayed from my townread on.
-Titus, Eddie are the biggest slots that I need to focus on evaluating right now.
-Kop is a big ball of blah.
-Oneironaut is scum.

[implosion]

Did I say wheme lied?

No, but if you're going to vote for him without saying any reason at all and after quoting what seemed to be you accusing him of a contradiction then i hardly see how you can fault me for having to assume some reason for your vote.

"Oneironaut has literally said nothing about what he thinks of Wheme until now."
What have I said about my thoughts on Wheme now?

You voted for him after quoting several things he said, implying that you found those things scummy. I have simply assumed the reason.

You are absolutely free to elaborate, and I would in fact encourage you to!!

[implosion]

I have simply assumed the reason.

If I don't give a reason, then it makes sense to just make up your own reason? I said what I said, nothing more, nothing less. I find it interesting how people fill in the perceived blanks with whatever they want to see.

Dude. You have to decide now. Bus fitz or don't bus fitz.

I'll vote who I want, when I want, for whatever reasoning I want.
You weren't even seriously on my scumdar when I voted you.

I don't care if I'm on your scumdar.

My point being that I don't always vote because I think someone is scum.
Did my vote have anything to do with why you squirmed so much in response to my question about if you think me and fitz are both scum?

Once again, you are absolutely free to elaborate and clarify! If you don't want to, then I will continue to infer the reason logically, as that is all I can do!

It would be unwise for scum to avoid NKing me, unless they think they can get me lynched.

Alright. So many things wrong with this post.
1) How out-of-touch are you with the gamestate that you think scum might not be able to get you lynched? You're at L-2 and literally the only person who called you town as far as I can remember was fitz and he's dead.
2) Why are you softclaiming something that scum would want to kill...? What benefit is there to that? At all? Are you trying to WIFOM scum? As the person perceived as by far the scummiest? How does this make any sense at all?
3) Why are you softclaiming...... at all??? What benefit is there to randomly softclaiming your role? Why softclaim and not hardclaim? Either you realize you're almost definitely the lynch (in which case, you have no reason not to just outright hardclaim) or you don't (in which case...)
4) Why are you claiming in any way at all? Your rhetoric makes it clear that you don't realize you're by far the most likely lynch target today, which makes me think that you're not claiming in response to pressure.

[implosion]

I actually re-read my posts maybe around 50-75% of the time as town. I almost always do as scum. I actually didn't re-read that one before posting, incidentally.

If you're town, can you please actually engage in discussion over things, rather than talk past me and force me to talk past you?

Why are you voting wheme? What are your reads overall?

[implosion]

Er, why were you.

[implosion]

*deep sigh*

[implosion]

Unvote

I for one would not like to hit the "maybe enter MYLO" button while we have two slots that don't currently exist.

[implosion]

Probably because he had a misconception about how fruit vendors work.

[implosion]

it can't be a scum bus. DRK was a traitor, scumteam didn't know who the traitor was.

[implosion]

Somebody who makes jokes should have totally seen that claim as a joke

...sometimes people miss things?

in particular i feel like cooldog is the kind of person who'd possibly take something like that literally. This isn't from scanning random games, this is from having seen him post on ms for years in discussion forums. And i certainly don't think he'd lie as scum about thinking that it was legitimate when he knew it was a joke. it's mostly moot anyway. it's not a strong read.

Do you think he's scum lying about having thought it was serious? What is the scum motivation for lying about something so arbitrary when everyone else would obviously know it's a joke?

Two Face is obvTown. I really want to lynch implosion hard.

Are you implying that you think this post is me calling twoface scum? because it isn't. I did call him scum at one point d1 but i was never really sold on it.

[implosion]

in practice, scum don't generally lie about very overt things like that unless there's a very strong reason. i don't have strong evidence for that assertion but i very strongly suspect it's true.

if cooldog is scum i am quite confident that he genuinely thought it wasn't a joke.

Suggesting cooldog lynch here while allowing an if statement to backout.

Pedit: No I'm saying Twoface is town and that post of yours after is horrible and makes you scum.

uh what
this is me explicitly saying the reasoning for a cooldog lynch (that he lied) is bad.
I say if he's scum he told the truth but that doesn't mean i'm calling him scum or suggesting a lynch; i call him town in other posts explicitly.
how do you get me suggesting a cooldog lynch out of this?

[implosion]

well i don't necessarily disagree with those reads.

If cooldog is scum >> To determine if cooldog is town or scum you need a flip. Therefore you are suggesting a cooldog flipped world and suggesting a cooldog flip.

This is reading in to things that are not there.

[implosion]

it wasn't scummy.

it was bad. it wasn't indicative of scum.

and i've mentioned this but drk and i basically signed up to play this game together bc we hadn't played mafia together in a long time.

[implosion]

i am not saying "scummy play is okay."

Cooldog's play was not "okay." it was very bad.
That doesn't mean it's correct to lynch him for it, if the play isn't indicative of scum.

[implosion]

mathblade i feel like every post you've quoted from me has several possible interpretations and in each case you've listed the worst possible interpretation.

[implosion]

In this game I would think 2 different ways. a townie way or a non townie way

Yep. Several was not probably the wrong word. Though xkcd would argue otherwise. But phonepost.

[implosion]

its not quite that cut and dry but etc

[implosion]

Threatening to replace out unless people go with what you want when people have been complaining all game about you being toxic.

Truly the paragon of maturity; I am deeply swayed to go against my reads and sheep you.

I don't put a ton of stock in the scumslip thing. I'll look more closely at it when I get home though.

[implosion]

Refusing to read is absolutely anti town but it's absolutely not indicative of scum. The pushing that we sheep the cop might be; I can potentially be convinced on that. But it's gonna take a hell of a lot to convince me that she's a better lynch than one.

[implosion]

Twoface have you ever stopped, looked in the mirror, considered the fact that you have decided to blacklist almost everyone in this game and thought to yourself "hm, maybe my attitude is part of the problem, maybe not the whole problem, but part of it"

You should try it, it's quite the cathartic experience.

[implosion]

Uh

How does he know your slot to be town precisely?

[implosion]

I'm at work. I generally don't dive into things at work.

I've already done quite a bit of scumhuntjng, and still am. My main suspects are mostly lurking right now.

Which poke specifically are you referring to

[implosion]

Again, like I said, I will look more into the scumslip thing when I get home.

[implosion]

Which conveniently will be quite early today.

[implosion]

this is dumb from literally every angle

[implosion]

scum can absolutely shoot+block the cop. It's a very simple tactic capitalizing on the fact that the game is naturally in odds. If the doctor is trying to wifom then they get a free kill on the cop. If not, then they don't give the town an extra mislynch, and they don't give the cop a report.

It's a perfectly valid strategic thing to do.

Frankly, i think we should just massclaim at this point given that both titus and oneironaut have claimed to have roles now.

[implosion]

Explain please.

let's see...

1) i completely disagree that this is as obvious as you're saying it is as a strategic replace out. I can see that angle but i can also very much see it just being titus being disgusted and not wanting to play the game because she's not being allowed to play the way she wants, either as town or as scum.
2) titus saying she's replacing out and then claiming on her way out instead of letting her replacement decide whether or not to
3) titus replacing out at all
4) the fact that we just got a replacement for your slot, and now we have to wait on *another* one
i can probably go on more if i want to

but most of all, just the fact that this is just one more drop in the pile of this game being a nearly-unplayable shitshow of clashing personalities.
that just isn't fun.

[implosion]

why is mass claim bad

if titus is scum it will likely out her as scum and leave the town with literally every meaningful power role alive against a single scum
if she's town then it'll prevent the mislynch that you're peddling (which is my inclination right now)

[implosion]

well i can already tell you aren't going to listen because you think horrordude scumslipped, and you think i'm scum too so i'm honestly not sure why you're even bothering to ask since you probably don't care about the answer, but the answer is literally just read her posts

very literally she can just be town who is angry about you and twoface's play
i don't understand what's complicated about that at least being a possibility.

[implosion]

Disgusted yes then she keeps playing or convinces Two Face to quit scumreading her or takes her proper lynch like a woman.

i agree she should
people do things that i don't think they should sometimes!
even *gasp* people who are town!
i'm much less of an idealist than twoface or apparently you

[implosion]

this honestly just feels like a repeat of both the cooldog and fitz lynches of me yelling about why peoples' reasons are bad and/or why i think the person in question is town and like i'm talking to a brick wall

i'm not the kind of person to replace out over it but let me tell you it is tempting

[implosion]

i also just fucking hate speculating about alignment based on things like replacement requests
it cheapens the game.
and you're going to call me scum for saying that and i really don't give a shit.

[implosion]

i think i actually just lost all of my ability to give a shit about this game, and i don't think that's happened before on ms :/

[implosion]

iaws please don't leave ms you have been the primary reason this game is playable ;_;

i've seen some ugly stuff before but this is near the worst of it i think

[implosion]

yeah honestly i feel like it's wiser not to read this thread. it'd be like dumpster diving. you might find a few gems but it's still a dumpster

[implosion]

Mathblade, if there's an ascetic and no RB then it has to be either TF/GiF or wheme-scum:

Wheme. Who did you give fruit to and why wasn't it me?

Tf I gave fruit to you

I don't know why you see the kill+block scenario as unlikely. I'm pretty confident it's a thing I've seen before and both me and IAWS have discussed it as a perfectly likely explanation.

[implosion]

this actually makes me inclined to write kop off as town. This seems like a really unlikely tact for scum to take.

But i *REALLY* wish kop would be more active and hold some dialogue, and talk about his reads on players other than twoface today.

[implosion]

i also just don't think the team is kop/oneironaut. I don't have a great reason for that.

i think it might be math/oneironaut. That's my best guess at this juncture i think. Pretty low confidence though. Still strongly prefer oneironaut first unless his claim is something pretty damn exciting.

Still think we should just massclaim given that we have 4 people (wheme/onei/iaws/titus) claiming/openly softclaiming to be PRs, plus fitz and GiF's neighbor statuses...

[implosion]

like, mathblade's "let's just lynch titus" plan to just lynch titus instead of massclaiming kind of falls apart when you realize that the town as a whole isn't convinced that titus is mafia...

[implosion]

IAlwaysWinSometimes: neighbor cop
WhemeStar: fruit vendor
Titus: doctor
GuyInFreezer: neighbor

leaving:
Oneironaut: some softclaim
MathBlade
implosion
Kop

i genuinely do not think scum get almost anything out of us massclaiming here, unless the scumteam is literally titus+oneironaut and if that is the scumteam then a massclaim is fantastic for us because there will be so much power claimed and we'll be able to start PoEing in the PR claims

if the scumteam is not titus+oneironaut then either titus is doc and scum already know all they really need to for their night actions tonight, or oneironaut some PR and scum pretty much know what to do tonight

it's also possible oneironaut is trying to gambit with the softclaim which is SO FUCKING BAD if oneironaut is town and needs to be brought to light and eliminated as a possibility NOW rather than later in case he is town

pretty please. pretty pretty please can we massclaim.

[implosion]

@Gif: wheme is playing his town meta to a T, and imo basically massively towntold earlier when he claimed. Wheme-scum would astonish me.

What do you find town about hans?

[implosion]

Scum can kill me - it's bad town play to lynch me if what Eddie says is true

scum can just leave me alive as a town that won't be lynched

What don't you get

This is the first decent example i found scrolling up your iso

You have a tendency that I think you do more as town than scum (although my only experience with you as scum is in a marathon game, but i suspect this is a trend) to sort of post in a way almost boastful of the fact that you're town. I see similarities with parts of your play this game when people have pressured you, and the way that you reacted to the wagon on you in Fat Boy Mafia.

[implosion]

they also seem to have missed my post regarding wheme being probably blocked when sending fruit to twoface

[implosion]

i'd like oneironaut to commit to a claim first. I don't really care strongly about order beyond that.

[implosion]

Kop, as far as I can tell, your reasons for thinking TwoFace (now GiF) is scum are the following:

1) "I have a feeling"
2) The slot should have been nightkilled by now if it were town
3) The "scum in the neighbors" theory.

1 is useless for convincing other people, 3 is based on a theory that was never sound to begin with. As for 2, you can't just look at the slot in isolation; you have to look at the other slots that have actually been killed. Those slots are Boonskiies and Stone Cold, and both of them make a lot of sense as slots that could have been killed over TF, *especially* if oneironaut is scum. Even if he isn't i could see scum killing boon on a PR read and stone cold for his activity, but if oneironaut is scum then both kills are essentially completely explained as scum killing people with good reads.

I'm open to being convinced on it but these points aren't convincing to me.

[implosion]

If no roleblocker claims, who you checked or who should have received fruit or the fruit vendor must be scum.

Uh.... what? No. If no roleblocker claims then there is probably a mafia roleblocker who isn't claiming, and who blocked wheme night one and iaws since then...

How about IAWS votes for who he wants? Since he is conf town instead of an opinion shoved Town his throat. When IAWS wants my opinion he'll ask.

I am the towniest Town to ever Town. You know my LyLO/IC play from the open Titus. Let conf Town do their thing.
IAWS is the IC. I help IAWS.

Are you actually criticizing Titus and I for giving suggestions to iaws when he explicitly asked for them?

He did, even if only implicitly, ask in his last few posts.

[implosion]

presumably he was mimicking MathBlade discussing day 4 in the post before his, i.e. a fruit was received day 4 but the fruit that was meant to be received and revealed on d2 was blocked, i.e. he was blocked on night 1.

[implosion]

It really doesn't matter much. Iaws can dictate the order based on his reads or anything else if he wants. Or we can popcorn. Just get it over with.

[implosion]

[implosion]

Oh man Shaziro I bet you are just super super stoked about this inevitable replacement huh. The excitement is palpable.

[implosion]

VT

Ahahahahahahaha

Oh not mafia, popcorn to your next biggest suspect

Hahahahahaha you think he's going to have a biggest suspect

I might say more about oneironaut/Hans later if I need to but this should be self explanatory. I straight up do not see one making that soft claim gambit as a vt. Biggest reason on the slot imo historically was nka but there are other reasons as well.

We can continue massclaim. We can also stop here for today if everyone agrees that nm needs rope. Either way.

[implosion]

doesn't really matter strongly to me either way.

I think the benefits of continuing a massclaim are somewhat nominal since we're probably just going to lynch nm anyway.
I think the downsides of continuing a massclaim are somewhat nominal since we already have a claimed cop and doctor both of whom I believe are town (I could be wrong though, of course, and in that possibility lies the benefits, but they're only really beneficial if they give us reason to lynch someone else like titus over nm, which I doubt).

Why am I being lynched?

your predecessor, while under a lot of pressure:

It would be unwise for scum to avoid NKing me, unless they think they can get me lynched.

[implosion]

Several things to say in the wake of probably yet another replacement...

1, the more I think about it, the more I think the way Mathblade has pushed me+Titus feels manufactured. From my understanding, they initially thought scum were in Kop/One/me, then saw horrordude's alleged scumslip and started tunneling titus and me.

Somehow, they went from scumreads on me and kop and one to being so confident that it's Titus+me so as to declare everyone else town by PoE. The way they're talking, to me, implies that they are confident in the reads of me/titus as the scumteam. They never really explained why they were wrong about kop, or one; the points in favor of them being scum were entirely dropped on the floor in favor of pursuing me/titus. I can sort of understand that for the titus slot, because of the scumslip thing (which I also think is probably disingenuous for other reasons, which I'll get to later) but I see no logical reason why mathblade should be tunneling me so far when they seemingly had solid scumreads on two other slots. I see no reason to have so much confidence in those reads when you were viewing so many different slots as having scumtold early. It feels to me like scum who is pushing whatever is most convenient. Math says that they see one as lynchbait right now and see kop as my other likely scumbuddy after titus, and that they don't understand the case on oneironaut, despite having found numerous posts from hans that they disliked (tangent: 1907 implies that mathblade knows that oneironaut=superhans, but 1963 which came afterwards implied that they didnt? It's theoretically possible that this is a scumslip but it's not really worth looking into deeply.)

Essentially, it makes sense to fos me over one/kop, but I don't see the progression to saying one is clearly lynchbait based on how math has looked at the game. They just seem more confident in their reads than they should given how many things they've called scummy. It doesn't seem consistent.

The horrordude scumslip thing just seems like a really stupid thing to get hung up on. Both of the scumslips that Mathblade pushes just look like really blatantly non-indicative things to me. Horror's rage about the upcoming mislynch is a normal thing that townies do; they talk as if their reads are right. It's essentially just omitting the "i might be wrong but" clause. It's not atypical. The titus replace out request just makes no sense to me to push as a scumslip. Like seriously, I see absolutely no reason why titus can't be doing that as angry town. I honestly find it difficult to believe that MathBlade is so convinced that Titus wouldn't make that replace out request as town so as to call it a scumslip; it feels like inflammatory rhetoric that isn't focused on finding scum and is instead focused on getting as many mislynch candidates into the pool as possible.

Those are my current thoughts on MathBlade; I can give more in-depth reasoning on why oneironaut is scum if it's really desired and probably will, possibly right now.

[implosion]

So, superhans/oneironaut/notmafia.

To me, reason number one that this slot is scum is still and has always been nightkills. Why does scum kill boon then stone cold? As I've said, this point is more valid from my own point of view, because Stone Cold was pseudo tunneling myself along with superhans, but that doesn't apply to the boon kill. I really think scum don't make both of those kills if oneironaut is scum; neither of those slots showed any indication that they were slowing down in their pressure on superhans, and i think in practice in today's meta scum don't generally kill just to frame. They kill players who are active and/or who have good reads, or occasionally PR reads. Killing Stone Cold in particular I think makes almost no sense fmpov if hans was town; why kill a slot that's being active enough that I highly doubt it was a PR read, that was strongly pushing two town slots as its primary suspects? Makes no sense at all. But again, that point relies on me being town, so it's not as useful from others' point of view unless they have a townread on me.

Number two is the claim. I feel like I shouldn't need to spell this out so plainly in a game where people (read: twoface and eddie) have been tunneling left and right based on "lies" that were meaningless. But this is not a meaningless lie. There is absolutely NO town motivation for softclaiming a power role in the situation oneironaut was in as a vanilla townie. Zero. It is only explainable as flatly terrible play, more terrible than I think I'm willing to accept as being even vaguely likely. Oneironaut was under a TON of pressure. If he's town, he knows he's going to get grilled after softclaiming. Almost certainly, he thought that he was going down and was looking for some out, any out, and so he softclaimed in the hopes that people would buy it. NM then claimed vt because he didn't know that his slot had softclaimed earlier.

Number three, superhans was a scummy slot. I think like everyone agrees on this so I'm not going to ISO him again.

Number four, oneironaut's play was scummy. I criticized his early posting (and made the NK argument that I just rehashed) here. After that, he starts an entirely semantic argument with twoface, an extremely easy avenue to take as scum, because it's an argument that lets you be correct in a meaningless (non-alignment-indicative) way. Actually a lot of the rest of his iso pings slightly town or mostly null to me (the way he talks to twoface late). But I think the negatives somewhat outweigh the positives.

[implosion]

honestly.

I feel like there are so many slots in this game that i haven't been able to meaningfully interact with enough, either because of inactivity and replacements (kop, oneironaut) or because of abrasiveness (twoface, eddie to a degree, fitz although he's dead) that i don't feel as confident as I think I should.

I do have some doubts about the oneironaut slot. They're more concrete things than "the slot looks like mislynch bait," which is a really stupid standalone reason to call a slot town. But I think the reasons to think that slot is scum are too severe to ignore.

[implosion]

The scumslip was Horror knowing CoolDog would flip Town.

this is what i was referring to...

[implosion]

Ah. I misunderstood you earlier; i thought you were calling both her and her predecessor out for scumslips since you said that she scumslipped. This is why I referred to "both" of the scumslips you pushed. You'll notice I also talked about the horrordude slip:

Horror's rage about the upcoming mislynch is a normal thing that townies do; they talk as if their reads are right. It's essentially just omitting the "i might be wrong but" clause. It's not atypical.

Actually, looking more closely at the post you quoted:

event that they're both town which at this point is my best guess. I don't want 100% of rhetoric tomorrow to revolve around cool dog aga

It won't. We'll be discussing why horror is scum

If you are wrong about CoolDog, you don't get to lead town anymore.

serious question. in what way do you feel 2f was leading town?

"anymore" shouldn't have been included. He doesn't get to say who the lynch is if he spends all of Day 1 on a death tunnel of a townie.

How did horror know Cooldog is town when the role PM flipped after this point?

Titus ideas stranger?

he literally in the previous quote in this quote pyramid said "if you are wrong about cooldog"
this is like the dumbest thing to push

[implosion]

literally the "if he spends all day 1 on a death tunnel of a townie" there is predicated on the if in the previous sentence he said

[implosion]

no, it doesn't. He originally said "If you are wrong about CoolDog, you don't get to lead town anymore." He then amended that sentence to remove the "anymore," and that sentence already included a clause conditional on cooldog being town.

Semantically that simply does not imply what you're saying it implies. It certainly implies that horrordude strongly thought that cooldog was town... which he was in fact claiming to think.

[implosion]

VT.

[implosion]

VOTE: Not_mafia

[implosion]

In other words I don't agree lynch me.
You did the same shit in the Open Titus.
I don't agree with your reads I must be ridiculous policy me is your standard argument.
You being here isn't what GiF needs. You being here tunneling isn't what GiF needs.

What he needs is someone to explain why Not_Mafia is scum as they feel the lynch is lynchbait.

Now, you're putting words in his mouth. GiF can tell me what he needs.

I am not saying policy lynch for disagreement. I am saying you are likely scum if you don't follow your implications.
Cop, fv, scum rb isn't balanced and there is no other PR.

FyPOV.

FMPOV it is balanced.

And it's BS like this that makes me think you're scum.

Balance is not a point of view thing. This is absolutely not something that would be approved by the NRG. Objectively.

[implosion]

newbie matrix-9 is 2:7... and open.
this is 3:10 (presumably)... and closed.
those are COMPLETELY different standards of balance. Massively, massively different. Comparing them is a massive red herring.

You seem like a pretty generally logical person. You trying to make that comparison is incredibly scummy. If you are town you should be able to see that this is an objective matter.

The standard for an open 2:7 varies, but matrix6 is considered balanced enough at 1-2 power roles.The standard for a closed 2:7 is generally 2 power roles; a couple examples that i've seen that come to mind are bodyguard+watcher or a pair of masons. The standard for 3:10 is 3-5 power roles. almost NEVER 2. No way in hell do reviewers give town a cop and a fruit vendor versus any 3 person scumteam, ESPECIALLY one that has a roleblocker, even if it has a traitor. Cop is partially countered by roleblocker, and fruit vendor is barely even a power role.

have you seen modern mini normal balance standards?

[implosion]

What I'm saying isn't "alternative facts" grounded in nothing. It's based on reading MD and having read past mini normal review threads where NRG members generally say that there should be 3-5 power roles. It's based on looking at completed mini normal setups, and seeing those standards met with extreme consistency.

It's not based on comparing to a completely different kind of setup that's played in a completely different context, like your setup speculation apparently is.

[implosion]

Deadline's in slightly over 36 hours. We need to get a lynch together. I think there's a really, really good chance that mathblade is a goon and oneironaut is the roleblocker, and math is desperately trying to push the lynch off of oneironaut because they know that if oneironaut is lynched it's game over.

I cannot see math being this obstinate about titus+me otherwise, especially, again, in the context of what they said when they originally read the game.

[implosion]

For anyone less familiar with mini normal balance standards, I would encourage you to do the math yourself.

Direct comparisons are always tricky, but you'll see that recently completed games have balance levels much closer to what i'm implying is standard than to what math is implying.

[implosion]

There's a mini normal that ended literally less than a week ago that had a mafia loud fruit vendor. 1900.

You might approve it. That might be true. I doubt it. But I can nearly guarantee the nrg would not.

[implosion]

This is something that reasonable people should be able to come to a consensus on using valid reasoning.

Rather than using valid reasoning, math is appealing to invalid comparisons (to smaller open setups) and bald-faced falsities (saying fruit vendor is nearly as strong as friendly neighbor in a meta that includes scum fruit vendors). I'm more than happy to hear out a reasonable argument for how this setup can possibly be balanced if Titus is scum but math is not providing any.

[implosion]

Yep. Most likely only one.

[implosion]

Less than 24 hours. Need iaws and gif probably to vote for nm (assuming iaws is still on board).

(Also I'm just assuming gif is claiming vanilla neighbor)

[implosion]

This means mathematically scum HAVE to be voting NotMafia unless you think NotMafia Kop.

The "mathematically" here relies on you being town, and so is not applicable to say globally!!!!!

incidentally nm+kop is also my second-most-likely scumteam right now!!!

[implosion]

Like really.

If your supposedly-neutral-POV argument for not lynching NM is "I'm town and there's no way he's scum unless he's scum with Kop"

then uh... you might not be town, and he might be scum with Kop?

I agree scum are relatively unlikely to bus here but my two biggest scumspects for scum with him are not voting for him.

Really wish Kop-replacement-to-be-named and/or NM and/or Wheme and/or GiF would say anything of relevance...

[implosion]

oh my god someone who might be active.

Current state of the game is we've massclaimed. Titus claims doc, IAWS is cop (who got a guilty on the now-dead traitor night one), and IAWS is also neighbors with GuyInFreezer (along with havingfitz, who is dead). WhemeStar is a fruit vendor, confirmedly. Everyone else is claiming VT. We also know mafia have a roleblocker, as both Wheme and IAWS have been blocked (it's possible that MathBlade will still want to argue that there's an ascetic but i don't think it's tenable).

There's a wagon on Not_Mafia for reasons I outlined here.

My personal reads are that that slot is scum with either MathBlade or your slot.

There are almost certainly 3 mafia members, including the traitor. 3:10 is standard in mini normals these days.

[implosion]

Everyone's claimed, I believe.

Math thinks Titus's doctor claim is a fakeclaim; I think it's essentially impossible for this setup to be balanced enough to pass the Normal Review Group if it's a fakeclaim.

I personally have written off the darklyn/whemestar slot as locktown for a long time because of how Whemestar acted when he claimed early on.

Having scum or no scum in the neighbors isn't really set in stone from a setup design perspective. IMO it's more fruitful to just scumhunt than to speculate about whether or not there's scum in the neighbors a priori.

[implosion]

VT out with friends. Won't be on much today.

[implosion]

bliss.

[implosion]

literally see topic

see notmafia was most recent post

"oh god i hope it's a selfhammer"

[implosion]

STOP VOTING TITUS.

Mafia guaranteedly have an even-night roleblocker.

IAWS claimed blocked on d3, after n2.

I swear to god if you lynch titus.

She is like super super SUPER clearly town based on setup.

[implosion]

At the VERY LEAST, iaws death does not imply that she is scum because of her doc claim.

I'm pretty fucking sure it's mathblade. Titus should literally never be lynched in this situation.

[implosion]

GiF's naked vote makes perfect sense from town who hasn't read the game and has an immediate reaction to the death of "well the doc is fake then."
I expect him to unvote now that he knows that there's a confirmed mafia even-night roleblocker.

My reaction to NM's flip was basically "fuck yes, we got the roleblocker" followed by realizing that no, we didn't actually get the important mafia because people had claimed blocked on both odd and even nights, and it was n4. IAWS dying was deeply unsurprising when he was more "conftown" than titus, and when he's one of the few people who's been in the game since the beginning and his reads have been good (he agreed on NM pretty early iirc).

MathBlade, at the end of yesterday, said this:

Votecount 4.8

Votes

Not_Mafia (3)

- Titus, WhemeStar, implosion

GuyInFreezer (1)

- Kop,

Not Voting

:
IAlwaysWinSometimes, MathBlade, Not_Mafia, GuyInFreezer,

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

(expired on 2017-05-02 17:38:30)

Replacing Kop, prodding Wheme

Alrighty. Now we KNOW scum are trying to lynch Not_Mafia. Assume two scum. Then all but one Town has to be on scum to lynch scum. I am Town. GuyInFreezer I townread.

This means mathematically scum HAVE to be voting NotMafia unless you think NotMafia Kop.

Get your votes off of NotMafia.

They very heavily implied that they didn't think mafia were bussing... yet now without a second thought, they snap vote Titus, despite acknowledging that there may be another mafia roleblocker, and in the process dropping their scumread of me on the floor.

If MathBlade now thinks that I'm town then they have a hell of a lot of convincing to do if they think I'm ever, ever going to vote Titus.

[implosion]

other important note: wheme is basically conftown since he's role-confirmed and we know the last mafia's role.

[implosion]

If Titus is mafia, this is the setup:

Mafia odd-night roleblocker
Mafia even-night roleblocker
Traitor

Fruit Vendor
Cop Neighbor
Neighbor
Neighbor
VTx6

I would be willing to bet a LOT of money that the NRG does not pass this (I'm not actually going to because against spirit of game, etc, but.) This is HORRIBLY mafia sided; the town has one real power role in the cop. Fruit vendor is NOT powerful, it only role-confirms you, which would be decent but even friendly neighbor is a medium-strength power role. Neighbors aren't power roles. At the very least, i am positive that the NRG would not approve giving the mafia members a split roleblock (which is very, very powerful) against only a cop and a fruit vendor.

[implosion]

I will be doing more work today. I want to reread Hans and Eddie at a minimum. Also possibly look more at drks interactions since I was likely right.about her interactions towards Hans. D1 will be pretty useful since scum will be loathe to bus early in a traitor setup.

Other note is gif is somewhat less likely scum due to setup symmetry. That is not a super strong point though.

[implosion]

It's accurate.

I think I'm pretty obvious town though given my record in this game, how long I've been pushing the oneironaut slot, etc. I'm happy to justify my being town more if desired.

[implosion]

Spoiler: Relevant posts from hans ISO

VOTE: TwoFace

I dont like those snappy one liners. really abbrassive tone that isnt that helpful.

well my vote stays on cooldog (instead of cmm) regardless of if you sheep but yes

Good reaction from Eddie i think.

I'd argue that I was significantly less transparent; i said I was sheeping when I was asked about it, DRK said she was sheeping before she even made her vote.

Exactly why I didn't like her vote, and i'm okay with yours.

@ Fitz very perceptive... i do always play better when mildly shitfaced as i'm sure you're aware

Eddie, what does the fact you're lonely on your wagon tell you?

TwoFace you're being inarticulate af. Its not my fault that i cant follow what your arguments are, and fyi im absolutely town reading you for your unwillingness to help me follow the game.

*scum reading you

although im not going to join the IAlwaysWinSometimes or TwoFace wagon.

Note that this doesn't include posts relevant to reading me. Which there is a lot of (he interacted quite a bit with me).

Most of what I get out of this is that TwoFace was not scum with him. None of his interactions towards TwoFace look like scum->scum. So I'm a bit more confident on GiF town.

His interactions towards eddie were minimal and certainly look like they could be scum->scum.

I don't see any real interactions with the Kop slot.

[implosion]

STOP VOTING TITUS.

Mafia guaranteedly have an even-night roleblocker.

IAWS claimed blocked on d3, after n2.

I swear to god if you lynch titus.

She is like super super SUPER clearly town based on setup.

Mafia have an even night roleblocker OR Titus is scum. It isn't a guarantee

unless

you townread Titus.

Then if you townread Titus then you're assuming she's town then clearly saying she's town.

Did you read my post?

IAWS claimed blocked on d3, after n2.

It is *guaranteed* that we have a mafia even night roleblocker (or, technically, they could have something like a 1-shot or 2-shot or night-2 roleblocker, but i think it's safe to assume that it's an even-night). It is guaranteed EVEN if Titus is scum. It's possible that Titus is that even night roleblocker but the setup is horrifically scumsided if she is.

[implosion]

Spoiler: Relevant posts from hans ISO

VOTE: TwoFace

I dont like those snappy one liners. really abbrassive tone that isnt that helpful.

well my vote stays on cooldog (instead of cmm) regardless of if you sheep but yes

Good reaction from Eddie i think.

I'd argue that I was significantly less transparent; i said I was sheeping when I was asked about it, DRK said she was sheeping before she even made her vote.

Exactly why I didn't like her vote, and i'm okay with yours.

@ Fitz very perceptive... i do always play better when mildly shitfaced as i'm sure you're aware

Eddie, what does the fact you're lonely on your wagon tell you?

TwoFace you're being inarticulate af. Its not my fault that i cant follow what your arguments are, and fyi im absolutely town reading you for your unwillingness to help me follow the game.

*scum reading you

although im not going to join the IAlwaysWinSometimes or TwoFace wagon.

Note that this doesn't include posts relevant to reading me. Which there is a lot of (he interacted quite a bit with me).

Most of what I get out of this is that TwoFace was not scum with him. None of his interactions towards TwoFace look like scum->scum. So I'm a bit more confident on GiF town.

His interactions towards eddie were minimal and certainly look like they could be scum->scum.

I don't see any real interactions with the Kop slot.

.... You are going down the tunnel of confbias implosion.

says the person who tunneled me + titus for more than half of yesterday... you don't get to lecture me on confbias until you can justify how the setup i listed is possibly balanced.

[implosion]

like, i have been correct about all of my strong reads this game so far. The only read I had wrong was DRK, and that was a d1 read that wasn't one of my most confident. I see no reason to try to completely re-evaluate my view of the game when i've been more right than like everyone. I'm not saying that in general i don't, but in this game in particular my reads have been really good. You spent much of yesterday talking about how oneironaut was a mislynch. If you want to convince me to vote Titus, argue why my setup spec is wrong. My setup spec in mini normals is historically pretty accurate and this is some of the most confident I've been in it.

@gif, unvote wheme. He's not being useful but he can't be scum unless he's both a roleblocker and a fruit vendor (read: he isn't scum)

[implosion]

(I was also briefly wrongish on iaws but not really and flipped on him before the end of d1 iirc)

[implosion]

The only real tactical consideration right now is that Titus should protect somewhat arbitrarily tonight/shouldn't say too much about who she's protecting; this forces scum to either kill her or risk giving us an extra mislynch. This works because the remaining scum is an even-night rb, and tonight is an odd night. If Titus saves someone tonight, obviously we lynch tomorrow because we'll be in odds. If we mislynch today and Titus (or anyone else) dies, then we'll be at 4p and we no-lynch tomorrow since there's technically no one alive who's formally clear.

My scum pool right now is basically math and hiraki, and I lean pretty heavily towards math. A quick look at Eddie's ISO ctrl+f'ing hans's name looks pretty bad as well. He *consistently* has hans as the "next person to lynch." On d1, he says he thinks cd and hans are both scum but is more confident in a cd flip. Before the DRK lynch he waffles around voting hans and eventually does vote him, calling him the second scum after DRK while DRK is getting wagoned. However, early in d3, his reads suddenly change with the theory that DRK's scumflip implicated me, and he suddenly conveniently has someone else to push over hans now that the scumteam's traitor is dead. Later that day, hans is once again placed behind someone else, this time fitz.

Point is: he constantly, constantly talks about how he finds hans scummy. And yet, his pressure on that slot never ever amounts to anything; his one vote on the slot is essentially a kneejerk reaction to 920, and never really contributes any meaningful pressure. The rest of the time, he always manages to find someone else to vote for or to push as the better lynch while being able to very effectively distance from hans.

Disclaimer is that this post actually might be confbias; i am interested in hearing other opinions on this. But I really think this looks like scum distancing. I feel like town at least meaningfully votes hans at some point during all of this. It's like eddie saw twoface as this big town personality who was wrong about everything, and basically took the opportunity to loudly sheep all of twoface's opinions so that he could effectively distance from his scumbuddy while coordinating with the townie who was wrong about things.

Will probably look deeper at Kop ISO next.

[implosion]

On phone but:

Scum do potentially have incentive to kill people other than Titus. If they think they can get away with a mislynch on Titus which is theoretically possible esp if mathblade is town.

Wheme is in the strictest sense not technically conftown. That's all I really meant. I'm personally happy to lynch at 4p if he's alive. I will never vote him. But it's possible that for instance wheme dies tonight for one reason or another in which case I'd argue a nolynch is probably the better play.

Your analysis is basically assuming that everyone is okay with assuming that Titus is town, and mine isn't. I personally am more than happy to assume she's town though.

Scum is in a pickle here most likely and so making unexpected kills is something they might do based on things like who fosses who.

Gif is at third place as likely scum but far enough behind you two that he doesn't concern me ATM. This is because of two faces play, and Hans interactions towards the slot. I don't think tf played well but I think his play made very little sense from scum for the most part.

[implosion]

I also don't really have faith in wheme to decide the endgame since he's kind of been afk from the game for a very long time.

[implosion]

Of course I'm concerned that I might be wrong. I've cultivated that read over a long enough period of time that I don't think reconsidering it is very likely to change it. I might look at it a bit more today but likely won't dive deeply into that slot unless we get to mylo.

It's not about what choice we have wrt wheme. I just don't really value prioritizing keeping that slot alive when there are two other slots that I'm pretty confident are town and he's not playing the game.

[implosion]

Still claiming vt.

[implosion]

IMO, there are several effective ways to approach setup spec; however, there are often situations in which setup spec should be considered a priori, that is, before putting significant weight on how townish or scummy someone's play looks. This is one of those cases; i'm willing to write titus and wheme off as town at this point without reading a single post that they've posted. I do independently have a strong townread on wheme and a weak townread on titus's predecessor (i haven't actually made any material effort to read into titus's alignment since massclaim). Point is, in many cases, setup spec is more reliable because it can't be faked. Any towntell can be faked, any scumtell can be you misreading into something. With setup spec in some cases, the only way you can get it wrong is by doing the math wrong, and in some cases the math is obvious enough that you really can't get it wrong. IMO, this is one of those cases, where the setup is so overwhelmingly scumsided if we don't have a doctor that it's absurd that it would pass review.

Comparing it to the only other mini normal that I can think of that had a traitor, it had a setup of (goon + goon + bp traitor) vs (gunsmith + 3-shot jailkeeper + 1-shot vig + townies); gunsmith is comparable but a bit weaker than cop, 3-shot jk is comparable to doctor, 1-shot vig is stronger than fruit vendor (it confirms itself as not mafia and also gets a kill and possibly an extra mislynch in in conjunction with the jailkeeper) AND the mafia don't have any roleblocker (which is IMO stronger than making the traitor bulletproof). So that setup is comparable to or a bit more townsided than this setup if Titus is telling the truth, and MASSIVELY more townsided than this if Titus is lying. And that setup was STILL called scumsided in postgame. And most importantly, discussion of mini normal balance on MS since then has erred on the side of making things more townsided.

Anyway this is just a thing that's easy for me to rant about. We really need Wheme to start actually posting fucking anything at all today. GiF would be nice as well but he's likely to on his own eventually.

Shaziro: can you poke wheme?

[implosion]

Considered it, certainly. Still considering it, yes. Think it's likely, no.

[implosion]

I don't see why math town doesn't try to reach out to me and convince me on Titus. I've been pretty clear about what I need to be convinced (namely, refutations to my arguments about why the setup can't be balanced if she's scum), and they haven't addressed my arguments about why fruit vendor is a weak role, or why the comparison to a newbie game is invalid. I think town-math here should realize that the way to get a Titus lynch is to reason with me/others.

That said I also think it's just somewhat unlikely in the first place that town would think that Titus is scum in this position.

Kop's ISO is mostly boring. 2293-94 is interesting and I think points slightly in the direction of not-scum-with-one but maybe only slightly.

Doubt I'm going to change my mind on this today.

VOTE: MathBlade

[implosion]

When I play scum, I try to emulate my town playstle as closely as possible, so I kind of suspect you do the same.

Indeed.

I have exactly one recent scum game here (ignoring one micro that was super short and uninteresting). Pretty much any of my other recent completed games will be towngames <_> this is probably the best recent one for an example.

[implosion]

well i'm happy with that.

[implosion]

shout out to the 143 replacements in reverse order of when they replaced in!

[implosion]

they're shoutoutier because you had a bigger shitfest to read :p

although this game did become progressively less shitfest-y with each replacement for the most part.

[implosion]

Yeah, Math did the best with a not especially salvageable situation. I think going for the Titus lynch wasn't a bad tactic. It could have worked in a different player list.

[implosion]

oh, and of course, shoutout/thanks to shaziro for putting up with this absurd turnover rate and generally getting replacements in a timely and orderly fashion.

Also to IAWS. Please don't leave MS based on this game you were like the one point of sanity tethering me to reality at various parts of this game.

[implosion]

i assume it was some combination of seeing lynch as inevitable, wanting to cut off discussion, and not having the ability to catch up fast enough to defend.