PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Guardian]

I conform!

[Guardian]

I am going to

vote: UltimatAvalon

Stole my shtick -- scum tell.

[Guardian]

I wonder -- shall we
discuss setup? It might help
later. Stoofer games...

[Guardian]

Gorrad stole haikus
from me in Ork mafia. UA
here. Really -- scum tell?

Claus and Fonz both have
dismissed setup discussion...
Consider Space Monkeys!

[Guardian]

Vote: UltimaAvalon

His avatar is a pirate. Do I have to paint you a picture?

Did he change for game?
He might be ninja scum who
wanted to "blend in".

YAR!

I be confirming captain!

This post is also
highly suspect, considering
the day scene info.

[Guardian]

My posts aren't random;
why not respond instead of
just complaining, mike?

[Guardian]

You can not just break
your sentences up. Haikus
do not work this way.

You would do well to respond to my substantive points rather than quibble over my literary style.

I find it highly suspicious that you have complained more than once about the random voting stage, yet are quite eager to avoid discussing the real issues I've brought up, have not brought up any real issues of your own, and have instead decided to focus on my writing.

In Ork Mafia, Gorrad, scum, copied my haikus/poetry.
I find it interesting that Fonz, UltimaAvalon, and MBF have done so here.

each player knows whether they're town or scum. Scum know who each other are, town don't. It's basically irrelevant what the flavour is. Bringing up space monkeys hurts your case, since everyone assuming SM were town was precisely the problem, and that's exactly that sort of thing I'm objecting to here. Informed minorities and uninformed majorities act differently, regardless of what the flavour is. It's the tells arising from this we need to look out for.

I don't see how Space Monkeys hurts my case -- the town went on assuming something that was wrong, and suffered for it. Discussion might help prevent such a thing from happening here, no?

I think Thesp was hoping to trick those who lack basic literacy skills.

I agree with this.

---

No one has responded in any meaningful way to my points about UA's pirate avatar, or Iammars's confirming with pirate flavor. I believe the latter is a stronger point, and merits a change of vote at this juncture.

Don't dismiss this out of hand -- Iammars confirmed with pirate flavor -- he could easily be ninja scum who thought pirates were townies (pirates v. ninjas, a reasonable assumption to make). By claiming with pirate flavor, he gains points as being ready to look like a pirate -- but it now appears pirates are scum, too.

It seems that at least one reasonable explanation is that Iammars is in fact ninja scum who wanted to look a pirate.

unvote vote: Iammars

MBF, UA, Fonz are also on my short list.

[Guardian]

You would do well to respond to my substantive points rather than quibble over my literary style.

It was difficult
to interpret what you say
when you talk like this.

I don't understand why. A whole game was played with haikus -- you can't interpret one player?

I find it easier to distill the 17 syllables rather than make sense out of long paragraphs, personally.

In Ork Mafia, Gorrad, scum, copied my haikus/poetry.
I find it interesting that Fonz, UltimaAvalon, and MBF have done so here.

I find it funny
that I am on your short list
'cuz I spoke haikus.

I find it hugely suspicious that you *continue* to disregard all substantive points. You instead attempt to not address the point I've made about you asking for us to exit the random stage while not taking one iota of effort to cause this to happen yourself, and you try to make it out as if your copying my use of haiku is the only reason I am suspicious of you. Your representation of my reasons for being suspicious of you is... lacking. At best.

[Guardian]

I want to point out, at this time, that I said I'd be writing in haiku, being wary of cases, and pushing for short page length days in the sign up thread -- just so that if and when these things happened, people would know it was not some sort of tell.

I agree. I thought maybe you were post-restricted though, so your haikus were what I focused on, not what you were saying.

That's reasonable.

Ohhhhh. Okay. Well, here's my rebuttal:

Can you prove that my vote was not random?

No -- and I don't see how that matters. You've said you don't want to reveal the reasons for it, and haven't done much of anything proactive to try and get others to exit the random voting stage -- a cause you said was of high importance to you. Your TSQ vote *might* have some meaning behind it -- but you aren't interested in sharing, nor are you being helpful towards reaching your goal of getting out of the phase.

This dichotomy between your proclaimed goal in the game and actions in the game is what troubles me.

---

UA: I would have sworn you were in Ork Mafia. I also thought you might have read my comments in the sign up thread. I hadn't thought that someone else would burst into haiku, while not copying me. Apparently, I was in error -- you're off my short list, for now.

---

Claus, UA -- could you use less acronmys? FUD? MSU?

---

haikus:

Guardian: you were scum in open 19 and a miller in ork mafia, both games in which you used haikus: correct?

Hm, no. I looked over open 19, and I can't see where I used haiku. To my knowledge, Ork mafia was the only game I used them in, I think it is fun and freeing to do them in large games, and I think I'll continue to do so.

Haikus don't seem to work for you very well.

I'm not sure where you are coming from here. In Ork mafia, I engineered a day 1 mass claim that won the game for town. Even had you been right about Open 19 -- I survived a 89 page game to lylo and lost in great part because my partner had been eliminated a few days prior because of a coin flip, and also because of a performance by Thok in which he only voted for two townies the entire game.

Why are you suggesting that those games went badly for me -- are you that intent on me not using haiku?

Secondly: I was in haiku mafia, a game run by glork, and it was very easy to win because of the extreme limitations being forced to post in 34 syllables, at once, imposed. inasmuch, I am not sure why someone would intentionally limit themselves.

In that game,

only

haiku were allowed, at all times. Clearly that isn't the case here.

---

MBF's 108 really, really bugs me. Why? Timing. He didn't even acknowledge my logic against Iammars's existence when he, in 90, responded to the same post that said logic was in.

Instead, he voted only after Thesp and Sir Tornado did.

ps: Happy birthday Iammars!

---

And yeah, welcome hasdgfas -- what

would

merit placing a 5th vote on someone at this point in the game?

[Guardian]

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?

---

Gorrad, did you realize that I had already wished Iammars a happy birthday?

Also, despite how you claim you react to poetry, I personally have a hunch scum would be more likely to copy a schtick than town.

Part

of the reason for my elevated suspicion of MBF and Fonz.

Note: I'm not suspicious of poetry in general, I am suspicious of others copying my use of it.

--

Guardian, at the end of your last post, you mentioned hasd and something to do with putting a 5th vote on someone. As far as I can tell, hasd hasn't put a 5th vote on someone, or mentioned anything about it, did you mean Claus?

Why even call someone out on a 5th vote, when I've been called out on a 6th one?

First, please put the name of the person you are quoting (Jordan in this case), it makes comprehension much easier. I edited your quote to include it.

Second -- MGM, are you saying you find me suspicious for calling someone out for a 5th vote?

--

MBF has continued to show complete disregard for anything I'm saying about him, and only Kison, of anyone, has seemed to respond to it at all.

--

I'd like to hear Iammars's response to the points against him.

I'd like to hear MBF respond, at all.

I'd like to hear more from Fonz, too, specifically his stance on the Iammars wagon.

I am also wary of Thok, and while I understand the need for subtlety in some instances, I'm quite baffled as to what this "3rd option" about Iammars might be.

Lastly, it seems really early to point this out -- but many people have posted once today, or not at all. We should be mindful of that before proceeding too hastily.

[Guardian]

I already did respond. Who's disregarding whom now?

You've responded to a fraction of things I've addressed to you, and I don't believe you've said anything that I haven't already re-responded to. I apologize If I was hyperbolic in saying you hadn't responded to anything. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to say you haven't responded to anything about yourself with any degree of depth OR to my satisfaction.

Wow, this game is proud home to some of the cruder attempts at deception that I've seen in a while.

I have enough faith in Stoofer as a mod to believe that he would not set up any player to the point that the first words out of their mouth would result in them unwittingly revealing themselves to be scum.

Alluding to a role-type on your first post can out you in any flavored game, especially one with a mod known for intricate and deceptive setups.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "faith in Stoofer as a mod". Could you enlighten me?

I simply meant that I don't think that Stoofer would deliberately set someone up to believe it was safe to say something flavour-based that it was not, in fact, safe to say.

I agree with you there, but I don't see how it follows that Iammars was somehow "set up" by Stoofer.

If Iammars's PM was "You are ninja scum with _________" and nothing else, I could definitely see Iammars thinking "OK, I'm ninja scum... Pirates v. Ninjas... Pirates must be town!"

The Mars thing seems to be largely based on the idea that his role PM somehow led him to think that it would be a good idea to pretend to be a pirate, when this has clearly turned out not to be the case.

Considering the above example, do you see why I think Iammars might have just made an error in judgement, and not been abused by the mod in some way?

I think it's far more likely that he was just being whimsical, not attempting some gambit that backfired on him.

I'm not sure I agree here.

[Guardian]

Are you suspicious of Thesp, who has basically taken the same position with respect to this option as I have?

Not very, and I find that to be something of a misclassification.

You brought (at least explicitly) this 3rd point up first, and to my understanding are using it to support your suspicion of the Iammars wagon.

Thesp, on the other hand, has acknowledge he may have thought of what you are thinking of, but is not using it as a rationale to reject an assumption that based on the M.O. in the day scene makes sense. He also has said you should not live to near endgame because of this mysteriousness that I do not yet understand, so it would seem to me that painting you two with the same brush isn't very reasonable.

I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.

Consider this hypothetical thought process:

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

[Guardian]

Are you suspicious of Thesp, who has basically taken the same position with respect to this option as I have?

Not very, and I find that to be something of a misclassification.

You brought (at least explicitly) this 3rd point up first, and to my understanding are using it to support your suspicion of the Iammars wagon.

I am not using that as a way to support suspicion of the Iammars wagon. Given that you claim to have no idea what it is, I can't see how you can reasonably claim I'm using that as a way to attack people.

I thought you cited "mysterious 3rd point" as one of your reasons for being wary of the Iammars wagon. No?

That is an extremely easy way I can reasonably claim that you are using it as a way to attack

people

ideas.

Using a mysterious, unclarified, secret point to support your stance was precisely the reason I found you suspicious. You talk about something you are keeping purposefully vague, you talk about a 3rd unmentioned possibility, you talk about assumptions that you are unwilling to make -- assumptions that you are even unwilling to disclose what they are -- and use that as a basis for your stance.

Yeah, I find that suspicious.

---

I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.

Consider this hypothetical thought process:

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

In the context of this game, yes it is. It's common knowledge that Stoofer's games always have a twist, Mars would have to be a raging moron to make such a baseless assumption.

I don't see how "Stoofer's games have a twist" invalidates the hypothetical thought process. At all.

I'd like to hear a response to this.

Thirdly, since Thesp asked nicely, I will claim pirate/not pirate. I'm not a pirate. However, I'm not too familiar with my character, so I'm not 100% sure.

This feels very weasel-y. Happy with my vote.

Not sure if it sounds weasel-y to me, but I don't think there is a better place for my vote at the moment.

His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.

What other explanation would you have expected? "Aw, shucks, you got me"?

I'd like to hear a response to this.

You say that Iammar's alignment tells us about Gorrad. Why? That flew completely over my head.

Please re-read Gorrad in the context of IammarsScum, then in the context of IammarsTown, and I suspect you'll get quite a different read.

I did this read, and... I'm not sure I see what Thesp is seeing. I'd like others to consider this and draw their own conclusions, and have discussion about it.

---

Second -- MGM, are you saying you find me suspicious for calling someone out for a 5th vote?

I haven't decided yet. First I'd like to hear you answer my question.

Well, MGM, I asked because I wanted to see how vested an interest you had in the game/how close you were paying attention. I didn't accuse anyone of spuriously making too quick a vote -- I in fact was asking hasdgfas why he

didn't

make a 5th vote -- I think large wagons are generally productive at this point in the game, and was questioning his hesitancy.

---

I'm reading posts at random, in a way. I just see what was said lately and if I think I need to, I'll go back check a few posts I missed. Obviously this is not good play, but Day 1s bore me to tears.

Day 1s bore me as well, and more importantly I think that long day ones are extremely hurtful to the town -- I would love it if this one ended in about 7 more pages, and definitely no more than 20 total. Still, I *try* to read everything, and at least skim back at what I might have missed... Your "obviously not good play" and joking post that follows this one does nothing to assuage my suspicion of you.

---

I want to emphasize this: I think we should really try and end this day before the twenty page mark. If you are all mafia-saints that have hours to devote to combing through 40 page day ones, then I commend you. But no matter how much time it takes us to get there, as long as we have heard in a meaningful way from every player and have a reasonable lynch candidate, I want the day over before 20 pages. I've been in games where people oppose this, and say long days are better since there is more information, and that I am being weak.

Guess what -- almost everyone is weak. Very few people are going to go back and read 30,40,50 pages of day one nonsense. Maybe this game has an disproportionate amount of such people -- but I know at least that I am not one of them. I hope I have support in this.

[Guardian]

Guess what -- almost everyone is weak. Very few people are going to go back and read 30,40,50 pages of day one nonsense. Maybe this game has an disproportionate amount of such people -- but I know at least that I am not one of them. I hope I have support in this.

I agree with you about large day ones. I think a D1 would benefit most from 4 or 5 quick large bandwagons in succession, followed by a lynch.

.

Although I still think your current bandwagon sucks. If you had to vote someone else, who would you vote and why?

MBF. I hope I've made the reasoning clear in my posts. At the moment, however, I think my (and the other) votes on Iammars are, at the least, generating a goodly amount of discussion, and at best are on scum who made a mistake.

Wanna start a Thesp bandwagon?

Possibly. I find it odd that Thesp is a large supporter of both large wagons, and so vigorously. I also don't see the Gorrad-Iammars link -- I quoted his recent post in part because I was hoping it might encourage him and others to elaborate further on this -- reading this Gorrad-Iammars link made me wonder if Thesp is

trying

to create something out of nothing. I was hoping he'd respond before someone else started bringing up suspicion of Thesp too loudly; I'm sure that Thesp-scum would/will be on his guard, now.

In any event, Thesp, could you provide a more detailed analysis of this Iammars-Gorrad connection?

I also want to see Cicero contribute more. Hey, cicero! Come back or you're not getting a xmas present this year.

Cicero, and all others who are posting minimally.

Claus, could you outline briefly and in one post the reason for your suspicion of Gorrad?

[Guardian]

I thought you cited "mysterious 3rd point" as one of your reasons for being wary of the Iammars wagon. No?

That is an extremely easy way I can reasonably claim that you are using it as a way to attack

people

ideas.

Using a mysterious, unclarified, secret point to support your stance was precisely the reason I found you suspicious. You talk about something you are keeping purposefully vague, you talk about a 3rd unmentioned possibility, you talk about assumptions that you are unwilling to make -- assumptions that you are even unwilling to disclose what they are -- and use that as a basis for your stance.

Yeah, I find that suspicious.

Gee, maybe I don't want to mention some of the possibilities because I think it helps scum to mention them. If I had mentioned my third possibility and Iammars was scum, he might have tried to use that as a way to help himself.

For the record, Iammars can't use that possibility now. Moreover, the fact that certain people can't even seem to phantom what that possibility is tells me something about their roles.

I might, maybe, see what you are getting at. If so, I understand what you might mean by needing to keep it secret...

I still don't like your mystic-like air of suspicion, or the level of secrecy that envelops your posts. I almost want to reveal what I think you might be thinking, to get this out in the open.

For the record, I prefer a TSQ or Guardian wagon to a Thesp wagon. Mostly this is a matter of tone, as... I feel Guardian is being manipulative/trying to pick too much at fine details... Guardian's willingness to hint at maybe supporting a Thespwagon is also scummy.

Wait, what? Tone? I am being manipulative? How so?

Saying I would possibly support a Thesp wagon when 1) he is supporting both of the two top wagons and 2) he is claiming to see a clear connection that I don't see at and 3) when I was directly asked if I might support a Thesp wagon -- is scummy? Thok??

[Guardian]

I just read the last page. And then Thesp in isolation. And then Gorrad in isolation. And then Erg0's recent posts, in isolation. And then Thok and Thesp arguing.

I'm too tired to articulate my thoughts beyond saying:

I think Thesp and Thok may be scum together. Yes, I said it. Thesp. And Thok.

I think Iammars alignment is fairly unknown, Gorrad may be scum but not with Thesp. Erg0 is unlikely to be scum with Iammars.

Reasons later.

unvote, vote: Thesp

I feel much better about Thesp [being scum].

[Guardian]

In any event, Thesp, could you provide a more detailed analysis of this Iammars-Gorrad connection?

Perhaps later.

This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"? Add to the fact that I really see NO Iammars-Gorrad connection, and it seems Thesp might just be stalling or trying to cover. I really think we deserve to hear what connection he is talking about.

Then I looked at this tidbit, that seemed very disingenuous to me:

I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.

I don't believe this for a moment. I hope a vig has good sense and kills you dead tonight.

Considering Gorrad's original thoughts on the wagon:

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.

FoS: Iammars

. Iammars, thoughts?

Also, Erg0 started making a lot of sense about Iammars, and Thesp's:

I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?

I don't know, nor can I know.

Seems off -- if I was in the position I believe Mars to be in, I don't think I'd confirm with pirate flavor, it would be making far too great an assumption, knowing Stoofer. I could see

someone

making the mistake, but basing our lynch off of that with no other info about Iammars.. seems wrong, now. And I find it odd Thesp couldn't put himself in Iammars shoes with any degree of accuracy.

Considering his questionable stances -- and the fact that he is pushing and piggybacking on the two largest wagons in the game -- makes him seem like opportunistic scum.

The one thing I must note about Iammars is that I find it surprising he is taking so long to find his role on wikipedia, when all roles are supposed to be easily findable on wikipedia.

This is a decent point, which was not at all what JordanA24 is saying. Note that it doesn't require a bazillion assumptions about the setup, just that there is a group of scum who are ninjas, and who are not comprised of pirates (and are otherwise unaware of what other roles might be out there before N1), which currently seem very, very reasonable to make.

You realize, of course, that I've hinted that I'm uncomfortable with making one of the assumptions you've suggested.

Yes, which I've alluded to - I'm awaiting Iammars's pirate/non-pirate claim first. It's also partially why I don't think you should be allowed anywhere near the endgame. (I admit it's early to commit to this line of thought.)

This harks back to the mysteriousness I don't like -- and to me, it started looking like it might be distancing. Possibly I was too rash in saying you might be scum together, but for some reason it started to feel that way.

Thok, what bothered me about you, aside from what I've already mentioned, is that you didn't act as I would think town Thok would, from 4 months of playing with town Thok. You learned from nightless and extensively metagaming me in other games that I am at fault in that I can be somewhat OMGUS-y, in all situations -- and I would expect town Thok to press on anyways when I basically questioned the validity of all your accusations against me. Instead you replied to TSQ without a word about me.

That's basically my reasoning -- reading Thesp, then reading Gorrad, and seeing that Thesp's stance, particularly that portion I quoted, didn't make much sense, reading Thesp's dealing with Iammars, and then some emerging doubt about whether Thesp might be scum with you, Thok.

Erg0's comments also started making sense to me about how I would never do what I accused Iammars of doing, and then I also read the infuriating:

I do not hold Guardian's suspicions on me against him. I agree with almost everything he says.

I see that some people think the Iammars wagon is weakly justified, while others see it as a good day one lynch. I tend to agree with the latter, though I would like to have a few more suspects before the Day ends. To do this, I will have to sift backwards and determine if I think other wagons (like the one on Gorrad) have any foundation.

Which, while does not at all make me discount MBF, can be very hard for scum to say, as it basically opens you up to more attack. It was infuriating because I felt pretty good about MBF as a second choice to Iammars, but that post to me is either very good scum or town. Being the direct opposite of OMGUS is very hard to do in any situation, particularly as scum who has even more than natural incentive to be defensive.

[Guardian]

Thesp is giving the taste you get in your mouth when you bite into a piece of bread and then realize it's fuzzy.

Everything else aside -- I agree with this.

Sometimes I really question why I bother to post such long and effort consuming posts, it always comes back to bite me in the ass , because given enough content you can find *something* you don't like about someone's thoughts, and mine are not always particularly clear. Yet, Skruffs, for example, I predict won't be questioned at all about this statement. :\. I think after this post I'm going back to haiku for a bit.

Also: Fonz's post at the top of page 7 smells to me like someone tryign to communicate with their scum buddies.

Why?

Skruffs, please change your avatar, it really bugs me and makes it hard to take you seriously at all.

[Guardian]

Good. Maybe it disconcerts the rest. Of the scum,, an game play.

What're you talking about,
Skruffs? You think I'm scum? And you

want

to distract game?

Also Skruffs, I notice that
you didn't respond to my "Why?"
Fonz not important?

fos : guardian and thesp

Consider this the 'beginning' of the shit you are going to get.

Guardian, you explained the reason behind the case on iammars by encouraging people to make the assumption that ninja scum would think the opposing team was town.

However:

Players

(dead):

1. MrBuddyLee - Luke Skywalker (Vig) - throat slit and beaten to death Night 1
   
2. DrippingGoofball - Jack Aubrey (Pirate Finder) - forced to walk the plank Night 1

NOTE: In the above list, pro-town roles appear in black text; anti-town roles appear in coloured text.

Both of these roles are protown.

Guardian: Pirate finder: suggests they find pirates. Since it's a protown role, that suggests pirates are scum.

If by shit, you mean
bad argument, this is it.
None dead when Mars confirmed......

This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"?

Have I ever done this as town, or is the exclusive domain of ThespScum?

Not that I've seen. Show?
Any response to anything else?
Or are the rest true?

I am beginning to get the suspicion that most of the scum are likely to be the people who haven't been part of the posting diarrhea, and are lurking.

Why do you think this?
Do you want to make friends now?
Explain your thinking.

Seriously man, you're assuming that I assumed something about the setup in a Stoofer game? I joined this game just to be surprised by what Stoofer comes up with. Besides, I learned to stop outguessing the mod with no information when I became a mod myself.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT OUTGUESSING THE MOD. No one is suggesting you gave this much thought - especially since it was just a confirmation post.

That's precisely why the thought process could be there - it's just a quick check-in with unusual flavor to it.

It also seems less likely that someone would have a non-pirate role and confirm with pirate flavor if they weren't trying to throw someone off in some way.

This bit makes good sense.
I can really see it both ways.
Thesp can too, I guess :

I also have a sneaking suspicion that he's likely town as well, based on something he said.

Unvote: Iammars.

Still not happy with Gorrad, though admittedly my suspicions of him being protective-scum for Iammars are subsided.

Thesp: What did he say?
Your new points are logical.
What exculpates Mars?

---

I see that no one
sees Thesp<-->Thok besides me.
I shall look again!

[Guardian]

Cicero, flameaxe...

Where the hell have you two been?
And why choose to interject on this issue, cicero? Have you read the thread, fully?

Flameaxe -- nothing important came up until you were attacked? And you find cicero's mention of you

completely

out of place, given he mentioned tsq?

[Guardian]

[quote="Thestatusquo"]Also,

Fos: Guardian

You have enough experience with Flameaxe to know that this kind of behavior is par for the course for him. I don't like your attempt to ignore his meta.[/quote]I have enough experience with Flameaxe? I can recall one game, in which he was of no suspicion because he replaced for

you

urzasedatives, a vigilante, in an open setup. I probably have played with him before then -- but unless you name games to jog my memory, I'm literally drawing a blank .

This is par for the course for him? And that's acceptable? And I should

know

this?

---

5. Fritzler
11. KaleiÐoscøpe
15. Rosso Carne
16. Samruc
17. Sir Tornado
19. The Fonz

fwiw: It would be great if the above players, in addition to cicero and Flameaxe, really started playing the game. Too early for prods/replacements, but just.

[Guardian]

Flameaxe -- nothing important came up until you were attacked?

Incidentally, I'm not accusing you whatsoever flameaxe.

Instead of quoting cicero, would you respond to my question -- nothing of importance to comment on came up, until you were attacked?

Exactly.

Unless -- This is your response?

And would you mind rephrasing that second question? I'm afraid I'm not following.

Assuming it was fair for cicero to mention TSQ & DGB, was it fair for cicero to mention you & DGB?

---

Cicero, so, you've been reading the game -- and even taking notes -- but didn't want to comment, and instead decided it would be better to wait until the dust settled?

Hit Preview: Prima facia, cicero's n1 death speculation makes a little sense. But n1 death speculation is always iffy :\.

---

TSQ:
So, my experience with Flameaxe is:
1 game with him where he was confirmed town -- thus a game in which I largely lost interest in scrutinizing Flameaxe.
1 game with him where I was mod and he was lynched day 2 -- a game I largely lost interest in after cult died night 1 .
Some games on scumchat, over 3 -- probably around 6 -- months ago. Most of which I don't remember. And I've been warned by many people not to metagame people's real play via their scumchat play.

Because of the above, I am suspect for not realizing that, for Flameaxe, posting next to nothing is par for the course, and moreover that the de facto status quo is that that level of posting is acceptable?

Is that what you are saying?

[Guardian]

I am saying that being generally a terrible player who doesn't care at all how he looks is par for the course for BBM. (no offense, man.)

Yeah -- but you were also saying a few posts back that I, Guardian, was suspicious for not knowing -- and accepting -- this level of play as a norm for Flameaxe.

Do you stand by that assessment?

[Guardian]

Not at all. Im not interested, unlike some people in here, in running up big wagons based on shitfumes.

Who might

those

people be? Name names, please.

---

Flameaxe -- nothing important came up until you were attacked?

Exactly.

Would you respond to my question -- nothing of importance to comment on came up, until you were attacked?

Exactly.

Unless -- This is your response?

Yes it was my response.

(the above quotes were truncated for emphasis and clarity, by me)


Flameaxe, that reeks of scum self-preservation. Nothing in this game was important to you at all until you came under attack? Not a single wagon, or comment, or attack by one player on another -- nothing else at all was important enough to comment on until you were attacked on a minor point by cicero?

[Guardian]

Not at all. Im not interested, unlike some people in here, in running up big wagons based on shitfumes.

Who might

those

people be? Name names, please.

"OMG. He talked like a pirate."

Yeah, I take huge issue with this.

I wanted attention, sure. A wagon sure. But based on shitfumes? At the point I brought it up? What better was there? Even now, his confirming is not forgotten -- I definitely don't think that it was irrelevant.

And you accuse me, like it is some treasonous act to bring up something you think is suspicious. I'd also like to bring up that I *voted* Iammars. Others *wagoned* him. You find me more suspicious than those who followed?

Cicero, so, you've been reading the game -- and even taking notes -- but didn't want to comment, and instead decided it would be better to wait until the dust settled?

Yes. This is an accurate restatement of what I explicitly said.

Your play, then, can be easily seen as scum waiting to see where opinions fall and then tipping the scales whichever way youplease.

I might add that on at least one occasion I foolishly tried to interject with a moderately lengthy response, forgot to cut it to clipboard, and had it destroyed by a delicious CPU quota error.

Excuse me if I don't 100% believe you, especially since you didn't bring this up until now.

Oh, I also asked a question to someone that completely ignored and washed away as I recall.

A question you never followed up on -- despite reading the thread and taking notes for 7 pages?

Are you saying that your play thus far in the game, considering that you were reading the game -- is totally defensible as pro-town? It was good for you to read and take notes and keep to yourself?

---

Cicero, Flameaxe, if my diction was off, like you said, that's not very relevant, it was certainly a perceived attack.

Flameaxe, are you saying that

A mix of bullshit and issues on a (somewhat) personal level.

Is why you weren't active?

[Guardian]

Then what was that comment about....???

Why do you want me to "think more, please"?

You have no explanation for why you didn't comment until you were "attacked", correct?

[Guardian]

Hmph. Well, I'll sleep on flameaxe. TSQ, you need to respond to my question -- and if either you or flameaxe wants to provide (preferrably short/obvious) examples of flameaxe playing like he is now and being town, that would be great.

cicero -- eh, I'm tired, I'll sleep on you also at this point.

preview: "ninja" 'd?

One lase thing I want to mention before bed.

I sense a Thesp OR Guardian false-choice being spread around. Each player has 25 others they can be suspicious of -- groupthink is bad!

Later.

[Guardian]

Skruffs, you think I'm useless at figuring out who scum are?

I find that odd, considering Ork mafia and AM mafia, the only forum games I recall having you and me involved with me as town. (:

ps: Skruffs, because of your avatar, I've disabled all avatars, to my sorrow. I just couldn't stand it anymore.

---

tsq, I'd like you to respond to:

I am saying that being generally a terrible player who doesn't care at all how he looks is par for the course for BBM. (no offense, man.)

Yeah -- but you were also saying a few posts back that I, Guardian, was suspicious for not knowing -- and accepting -- this level of play as a norm for Flameaxe.

Do you stand by that assessment?

[Guardian]

Skruffs:

I'd say like 1/4 of the player list are notoriously good players.

I've replaced out of 2 games in anything nearing recent history, both because they ceased to be fun/playable (other townies were suspicious of me for from my pov pretty dumb reasons AND didn't listen to me in cases where I turned to be right about scum).

What does my replacing out of games have to do with anything?

[Guardian]

Finally had time for that reread, but it's actually something that happened

after

my last post that grabbed me.

Vote: Guardian

Apparently what was actually needed to convince him was a bunch of other people agreeing with me.

Very

sudden turn on the Iammars issue.

Apparently what was actually needed to convince me was you elaborating and repeating your argument in emphatic terms.

Very

suspicious play by Thesp, too....

Who are these "bunch of other people agreeing with you" before I decided to unvote Iammars and vote Thesp -- people who started agreeing with you between the time I last responded to you, and when I changed my mind?

[Guardian]

Guardian, I believe you to be downplaying exactly how much you've played with flameaxe, but I do not have the time nor the energy to look through all your games to prove that.

I'd like you to spend the time and energy -- because I've looked through my wiki page, and in a cursory viewing I couldn't find any more than what I described.

Your knee-jerk FOS seemed like one scum might make -- spread the suspicion around as much as possible, without good reasons for it.

[Guardian]

Rereading past bit,
I sit at my computer.
Cicero, post soon !

[Guardian]

I feel very comfortable with a Thesp wagon, but as we draw closer I wonder about the wisdom of a Thesp lynch.
I am flattered that two of three major wagons in this game were in some sense led by me; usually people can't understand what I mean/think it is scummy/bullshit, so it is rather refreshing that at least there are some out there who are seeing what I am seeing.

But as to the Thesp wagon:

-Solely based on the chance that if Thesp is town, he's pretty good at it, keeping him around on the chance he is town

might

be wise.
Really, I'd just *very much* like to hear Thesp respond to my points. Maybe he has convincing reasons/explanations. With *no* reasoning/explanations, Thesp looks very scummy to me.

Also, I'd very much like TSQ to respond, his very weak fos of me is grating :\.

---

Side note:
I have only one vote on me currently, but Mgm, Thok, erg0, tsq among others, have all expressed somewhat strong to very strong suspicion of me, possibly as #2 choice or whatever, and from past experience I don't want to let such suspicion "fester", as wagons enivetably spring up later from such suspicion if the reasoning behind it is not rooted out.

If there is anything you can bring up to justify your feelings such that I can try to respond/explain, please do so. Purpose of this is twofold: first, I don't want a wagon to suddenly appear on me in a flash for bad reasons, and secondly I want you guys to commit to the reasoning behind your suspicion, so that if a wagon does come up you are at least tied down to the reasons you are suspicious of me, and can't be "oh, I was always suspicious of him for X" when X was first thought of by someone else.

[Guardian]

I want to be productive and vote for one of the leading bandwagons, but I don't really see where either of them is coming from.

<- dislikes being unproductive.

Could someone from each wagon organize the points against Gorrad and Thesp so that they can respond to them and others can choose easier? I really just don't remember/understand why they are being run up.

My post 239 might be a good start for understanding the Thesp wagon.

I don't recall a detailed explanation about Gorrad by anyone currently voting him.

[Guardian]

@Guardian: Your scumlist appears to be 1. a guy who confirmed by saying 'YARR!' and 2. People who replied to you using haikus. Neither of these are remotely good reasons.

This isn't anything near an accurate and complete summary at this stage in the game. You read the whole thread?

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.

Your reasons are noted, I asked you for them and you provided them.

[Guardian]

Claus sums up a Gorrad case well in 202.

That's what I was referring to:

Well, I did make a case against Gorrad back when I was voting him. It was actually one quick bulleted post summing up my complaints. Interesting that you missed that.

This directed at me? I specifically said people currently voting Gorrad. You are not.

Your reasons are noted, I asked you for them and you provided them.

No, like the rest it was in response to a specific post, this one:

Ok, my reasons for finding people suspicious *at that time in the game* were not nearly to the standard they are now.

[Guardian]

I see Ultima being OMGUS and Flameaxe being obstructionist and swooping to someone's rescue again.

I agree with this -- UA's vote of cicero seemed like OMGUS without any real justification. UA isn't making much sense; I find it hard to take him seriously. Flameaxe is definitely not being helpful -- I

still

want TSQ to explain why we should accept this, however.

However, cicero:
-In Ork mafia, mass claim day 1 won the game -- so saying it is never a good idea day 1 is a stretch. However, I doubt it is the right play day 1 here.
-Every game, UA starts out with a self-vote. So finding him suspicious for that is not justifyable.

[Guardian]

]

This made like 1000 alarm bells ring in my head. My first game on this site had Thesp scum. Thesp scum refused to respond to stuff, said he'd do it later, and when he encountered something inconvenient would just be like "oh I'm not gonna explain this" -- "why is not explaining stuff bad"?

Have I ever done this as town, or is the exclusive domain of ThespScum?

Not that I've seen. Show?
Any response to anything else?
Or are the rest true?

I can dig through old games later, I don't feel like it right now. Generally, I feel at the very least that there are valid reasons for town to hide things (as I'm sure you do as well), and sometimes there are times when it's better not to explain things (or at the least that such explanations are unhelpful). If I showed you town instances of this, would you think this argument to be poor, then?

If you showed me multiple you-town instances of you-this, then I would consider this aspect of my argument to be poor.

Also, what do you mean by "Any response to anything else? Or are the rest true?"

I meant I wanted you to respond to the rest of my post viewtopic.php?p=907405#907405

There are a number of things in that post that you have still not addressed, that I find very suspicious about your play.

I am beginning to get the suspicion that most of the scum are likely to be the people who haven't been part of the posting diarrhea, and are lurking.

Why do you think this?

I got the sneaking suspicion that the most vocal/central players were town, and that the scum didn't feel like getting in the limelight (and didn't need to).

Why did you get that suspicion? It seemed like you got it when active players started to vote for you.

Finally had time for that reread, but it's actually something that happened after my last post that grabbed me.

Vote: Guardian

Apparently what was actually needed to convince him was a bunch of other people agreeing with me. Very sudden turn on the Iammars issue.

I like this post.

Why?

I feel very comfortable with a Thesp wagon, but as we draw closer I wonder about the wisdom of a Thesp lynch.

Are you saying you want me pressured, but not

really

pressured?

I'm not sure how much I want your pressured. I think you are very, very good scum hunter, and if you are town we want you around. My sureness level to lynch you would need to be higher than, say, sureness level to lynch Flameaxe.

However, right now you are the best bet to be scum, thought tsq is gaining ground, as he continues to not respond to me. That may be explained by his being out of town, we'll see.

Also, does anybody actually feel TSQ's reaction to my vote on him was a protown reaction? He fairly clearly tried to frame my vote in convoluted ways in an attempt to discredit it.

I've not been comfortable with the hostility he's presented in this game, but while I think it's unhelpful, I don't think it helps indicate his alignment.

Why are you talking about TSQ's tone here? Thok is asking about his content.

I'm seriously disliking Mgm. I still seriously like Gorrad.

Why dislike MGM? And what do you mean by like/dislike? You dislike MGM but like Gorrad -- this means you find Gorrad suspicious but not MGM?

[Guardian]

That's what I asked.

-->That is your response -- that you FOS'd me for something you were mistaken about?

[Guardian]

Yes. Consider the FOS completely retracted.

OK then, consider my suspicion of you to a great extent reduced. Faulty memory isn't scummy; continuing to try and justify your assertion beyond a point of reasonable certainty would have been, and in my view you were approaching that point.

Also, I agree with what you were saying about being on a wagon for pretty good, but not necessarily excellent, reasons near the start of day one. Suspicion has to start somewhere, and I don't think that in the first few days of gameplay the wagon on Iammars was at all unreasonable.

Next, I'm going to re-read MBF, and also look and see if any of the non-frequent posters is lurking (as opposed to being inactive). I also eagerly await Thesp's response to the post I linked him back to.

I also recall asking him to explicitly describe the Iammars-Gorrad connection -- again, he was pushing this quite hard earlier, and I think we deserve to hear WHY!

Way too many posts for Day 1. I don't know if I can do college and this game... *bangs head on table. Maybe after I get my homework done tomorrow I'll be able to reread and comprehend what is going on.

I agree. I reiterate -- I definitely want us to find a good lynch sooner rather than later, and I think we should actively seek such a lynch.

I'll boldly say: 35+ page day ones HURT the town more than a townie lynch. Very few people are going to read that much, and I think a game that everyone can go back and re-read is MUCH, MUCH more important in the long run than most give it credit for.

Fritzler
Rosso Carne
Sir Tornado
The Fonz

Still need to contribute, though :\.

[Guardian]

And Kaliedoscope* I *think* that is most everyone...

[Guardian]

!

With the rule about not talking on death, I figured there might be resurrection activities afoot! Is MBL back for reals?

[Guardian]

Erg0, two points:

First, you've indicated coorelation, and sure you can assume causation, but that isn't the case -- repeating your arguments emphatically made me reconsider staying on the wagon.

Second, how strongly do you think I believed in the wagon in the first place? When people asked me about this, I said "I think my vote is in a good place for now." I Never said OMG Mars=Scumz lynch lynch/dayvig! If you read my posts carefully I was never that fervent about lynching Iammars, but his was among the first substantial wagons, and I thought the evidence I uncovered was the best we had to go on at the time.

From my perspective, your voting me for this is in essence persecuting me for being proactive and trying to get out of the random/noise stage.

[Guardian]

I meant I wanted you to respond to the rest of my post http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 405#907405

I disagree with your assessment, and I don't see what's worth "respond[ing] to". Defenses are overrated anyway.

Well, I differ with you greatly, and I'm not going to be quiet about it. Especially your not being able to do as Erg0 suggested and put yourself in Iammars shoes -- I find it hard to believe you have such limited imaginative powers.

That hypothetical alone convinced me it was time to leave the wagon -- your refusing to get anything out of it made me quite suspicious.

Also, Erg0 started making a lot of sense about Iammars, and Thesp's:

I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?

I don't know, nor can I know.

Seems off -- if I was in the position I believe Mars to be in, I don't think I'd confirm with pirate flavor, it would be making far too great an assumption, knowing Stoofer. I could see

someone

making the mistake, but basing our lynch off of that with no other info about Iammars.. seems wrong, now. And I find it odd Thesp couldn't put himself in Iammars shoes with any degree of accuracy.

Additionally, I find your "disbelief of Gorrad" to be hard to reconcile with the post of this I quoted.

Then I looked at this tidbit, that seemed very disingenuous to me:

I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.

I don't believe this for a moment. I hope a vig has good sense and kills you dead tonight.

Considering Gorrad's original thoughts on the wagon:

I see where people are coming from on the Iammars wagon, but I think it's kind of weak reasoning.

FoS: Iammars

. Iammars, thoughts?

Above all,

we deserve an explanation from Thesp about why he sees an Iammars-Gorrad link.

He was strongly in favor of it earlier, to my knowledge still is, and has yet to proffer any evidence of such a connection or retract his statement.

Why did you get that suspicion? It seemed like you got it when active players started to vote for you.

I do agree as to the coincidence of that timing - for me it coincided with the time when you and I were particularly vocal, and it seemed like there was a lot of sound and fury about people whom I was beginning to think were more likely to be pro-town. It feels like to me there are a lot of players in this game who

still

have not made significant contributions (which I think indicates at least a slightly stronger indication for scum), and I am sensitive to your earlier suggestion that D1 not exceed 20 pages.

What do you mean by sensitive? The word is ambiguous in its connotation.

Guardian, what do you think about Gorrad? What do you think about Mgm?

I haven't seen a centralized case on Gorrad that convinces me of anything about his alignment, and think much of the wagon on him is groupthink. I also believe that your stance on the bit I just quoted is confused at best, and that people, in relying on that, are using a shaky bedrock for a wagon.

MGM's play has seemed very superficial and he has been going for "available"/easy targets. I'm equally unimpressed with the depth of his thinking. I'm not sure to what extent, if any, this has to say about his alignment, however.

[Guardian]

I assume that MBL and Fritz are town, as I find that far most likely. Welcome back MBL .

I personally can definitely see resurrecting a vigilante over a role-type-cop, with the appearance of what appears to be 3 scum factions. Especially considering it is MBL over DGB >_>.

I disagree strongly with a Gorrad lynch/dayvig. As I said/implied, I don't see any convincing case on Gorrad -- I don't find him more suspicious than an average townie.

[Guardian]

I personally can definitely see resurrecting a vigilante over a role-type-cop, with the appearance of what appears to be 3 scum factions.

HOW??? Really, how?

A weaker-than-standard information role is still far superior to have around than a vig,

ceteris parabis.

What if there are scum pirates and town pirates? What if there are

more

town pirates than scum pirates?

This line of thought is subpar, to say the least and saying it the kindest.

Explain to me again how you know/why you think the setup doesn't have pirate townies?

[Guardian]

I personally can definitely see resurrecting a vigilante over a role-type-cop, with the appearance of what appears to be 3 scum factions.

HOW??? Really, how?

A weaker-than-standard information role is still far superior to have around than a vig,

ceteris parabis.

What if there are scum pirates and town pirates? What if there are

more

town pirates than scum pirates?

Do you think it would be worthwhile to find this information out?

I think it would be great if the town could find this out without hurting ourselves.

A Pirate-finder could catch scum in a lie, and a vig cannot (largely speaking).

A vigilante can kill scum while a pirate-finder cannot. (largely speaking)

This is in part why I still ponder whether or not it would be wise to make everyone claim pirate/ninja/neither - I'm not sure how useful it would be to the scum to know what townies are pirates/ninjas. If I were certain it wouldn't be useful to them, I'd press for it hardcore, because even scum lie here, there is something to catch them on (and I don't think townies would lie about this).

I am also unsure how useful it would be to the scum.

This line of thought is subpar, to say the least and saying it the kindest.

Explain to me again how you know/why you think the setup doesn't have pirate townies?

I have said no such thing, nor do I think any such thing. I'm saying it's...less than stellar play...to regard a vig as more useful than an information role.

Why? Explain this to me, assuming it is not obvious.

[Guardian]

MBL, I think Thesp is the best person to run up at this point, if anyone is to be run up. Should he be yet? (shrug) Not quite.

[Guardian]

*is extremely gratified about being correct about Gorrad*

now especially, I think Thesp owes the town to explain this BS Gorrad - Mars link he claimed to see so clearly earlier

People, I'm usually right about these things, just few listen to me and I have a hard time convincing people. Listen to me better :[ ].

Protip: Thesp needs more votes.

[Guardian]

Second, how strongly do you think I believed in the wagon in the first place? When people asked me about this, I said "I think my vote is in a good place for now." I Never said OMG Mars=Scumz lynch lynch/dayvig! If you read my posts carefully I was never that fervent about lynching Iammars, but his was among the first substantial wagons, and I thought the evidence I uncovered was the best we had to go on at the time.

Might I ask why you found Iammars to be scummier than, say, Gorrad, at the time?

Cuz I'm pretty baller about figuring out who is/isn't scum. I never saw one case on Gorrad that was convincing to me that he was scummy, and a few cases (especially some comments from Thesp) that seemed completely contrived/made up.

The problem I'm having here is not with the Iammars wagon in itself. Rather, it's the level it progressed to over a rather minute point. Yes, I realize that there are several people out there who see a major severity in saying "Yarr", but I simply have to disagree, and this is perhaps why I am troubled by the people who stuck with Iammars as their top lynch candidate for so long.

I stuck with Iammars until I found Thesp. No one else proposed anyone better while I was on Iammars. So I don't see how one could be troubled by me staying on Iammars.

Also -- "the level it progressed to"? Your post implies you find me suspicious; I find it odd to blame the first voter for "the level it progressed to".

[Guardian]

Yeah I'll try. People seem to don't agree with me, and I might not be correct, but I'll try and explain what I was/and to some extent still am thinking.

Thesp has refused to explain many of his stances, the link I indicated included.

[Guardian]

typo -> *I'd try.

I'd ask why you wanted me to maybe, but unless I thought you had no basis for asking, I'd try, like I said.

[Guardian]

I'm pretty busy => reduced activity. I get much less busy Feb. 21.

I'll contribute as possible; meanwhile I still encourage Thesp votes. Note how both masons are voting Thesp. Note how I am voting Thesp. Go and do likewise.

Kison, Twomz, Rosso Carne are notably suspect lurkers/less actives, though. Still not sure what to think about flameaxe or cicero.

Cicero, where's that post of yours that was gonna consider everything that happened in the game, instead of just random points here and there?

[Guardian]

fritz says he'll die at end of day.

[Guardian]

cuz im busy, I'll get to it as soon as I have time for the game -- just letting people know my life got busy, so I'll not be able to post long awesome posts 4/5 times a day anymore, more like a few times a week.

[Guardian]

Thesp-Thok connection:

I'm not sure if I believe in this atm, in any event, I'd not push for Thok's lynch before Thesp's atm, so I'm not particularly interested in it right now.

But, my reasoning:

First, there was a suspicious undercurrent of Thok & Thesp "knowing something we didn't know" that they discussed for a while, which felt to me like it might have been scum talk. This was the main thing I didn't like; their interaction didn't feel genuine.

Then, there are multiple instances where Thok calls Thesp town-like/null-tell for things that imo are very similar if not exactly the same to things he finds as scum tells for others, notably how Thesp acted on the Mars wagon.

Even recently, when I put out some bait using the questionable argument of appealing to authority by saying "look the masons are voting thesp, you should too", Thok jumped in and refocused an attack on me before anyone else had the chance to respond to my comment.


So, I feel like Thok and Thesp were communicating about something, and also I see Thok's recurring theme of defending Thesp for actions similar to what others have done, and trying to redirect discussion about Thesp to discussion of other candidates.

---

I have a few more things to say right now, but I'm going to split them up into separate posts. The above is the basis of my thinking on Thok being linked to Thesp. I don't neccesarily believe that Thok scum would imply Thesp scum, but Thesp scum might point to Thok scum.

[Guardian]

Thesp, I don't think that interpretation of Gorrad-Iammars is very reasonable.

Gorrad said he didn't want to mess up another "secret plan" like he did earlier, so he put a weak FOS on to see where it went. Even so, he explicitly stated he didn't like the Iammars wagon, but that he'd like to hear what Iammars had to say.

I don't really buy seeing that interaction as a link, because I can't see myself seeing it as a link. It seems made up.

[Guardian]

I really have difficulty understanding why Guardian is kind of skating by for doing much the same thing as Thesp, but then abandoning his position when it became clear that it was becoming unpopular. At least Thesp stuck to his guns in the face of the wagon against him, which is either a sign that he was acting in good faith or a pretty big gamble if he's scum.

I want to reiterate that I don't think that is at all a fair assumption to make about my moving my vote. I abandoned it because your reasoning started to make some sense, and Thesp seemed like a more promising target.

You claim I couldn't have possibly been swayed by your arguments -- that's basically premising I'm up to no good to begin with, an assumption I find you having no basis for holding.


Speaking of which, what has Iammars actually done for us:
0) Confirmed like a pirate
1) Randomly voted cicero, a vote he has yet to change
2) Said he was away, and that's why he didn't respond.
3) Said he confirmed like a pirate because he felt like being in flavor, but wasn't a pirate yet wasn't, in fact, sure if he was a pirate.
4) Said he'd like to daykill Thesp for finding him suspicious. Don't get me wrong, I'm not entirely opposed to the sentiment of daykilling Thesp -- but Iammars's reasons are basically "OMGUS".
Claimed Wikipedia wasn't helping him with his role.
5) Clarified -- Wikipedia had his role

but he couldn't tell from the wiki if his character was a pirate

The above is certainly not helpful, pro-town, and I find the part I bolded quite suspicious. I was fairly familiar with my role, but the first thing I did after confirming was checking wikipedia to make sure there wasn't some pirate/ninja connection I didn't know about. Furthermore, if I was in a state of uncertainty about whether or not my role was a pirate *in a stoofer game* I sure as hell would NOT confirm with pirate flavor because I *felt like it*.

I am definitely suspicious of Iammars, and I feel there is good reason to be.

Think about it: you are unsure if you are a pirate/not a pirate, and you confirm with pirate flavor??? Seriously???

My list right now is something like:
Thesp
Iammars
MBF
Those less actives I find suspicious, like Kison

[Guardian]

Thesp, I think a large ammount of your "refutation" of my argument is that you didn't understand I wasn't arguing for Thok being scum independently, bur rather that if you were scum Thok would be more likely to be scum.

Even recently, when I put out some bait using the questionable argument of appealing to authority by saying "look the masons are voting thesp, you should too", Thok jumped in and refocused an attack on me before anyone else had the chance to respond to my comment.

Am I reading this right - you have problems with Thok for calling you out on an argument you knew was problematic?

I have a question for you -- I put this argument out there, to see how people would respond -- just like you put your argument out there that we should all claim pirate/not pirate.

You got really angry with Gorrad for messing that up; how is this scenario different?

I'm thinking more and more as I hear from you that you're just full of it, whether it's because you've pre-concluded that I'm scum and are trying to make the facts fit the theory, or because you're scum making it up.

I see no basis for this other than you asserting it right now. It's great that "you are thinking it more and more" but that isn't anything I can refute and is pretty substance-free.

One more thing:

So,

(1)

I feel like Thok and Thesp were communicating about something, and also

(2)

I see Thok's recurring theme of defending Thesp for actions similar to what others have done, and

(3)

trying to redirect discussion about Thesp to discussion of other candidates.

I agree entirely with (1) - I'm not sure how it's an indication that the two communicating are more likely to be scum.

Conspiring about a secret with a scum isn't a scumtell? I'm not arguing for Thok being scum. I arguing that, assuming Thesp is scum, Thok may be scum with Thesp.

As to (2), I'm interested in seeing what similarities you've observed, as I've noticed him defending me, but I haven't noticed what he's theoretically overlooked in others.

I understand the reasons he's giving, but for examples with Iammars wagon, he finds others scummy for it but not you, because you were more stubborn. That seems odd.

As to (3), wouldn't that be the sensible thing to do if you thought the figure seemingly in the biggest spotlight wasn't scum? I know I would - I'm not sure why I would do any different.

Thesp, I'm not using this as a case for (Thok-scum). I am using it as a case for (Thesp scum may imply Thok scum). Surely directing attention away from a scum onto others is an indication you may be paired with them.

I don't know what basis you're using to divine why someone is more likely to be scum, other than "I don't like how he's playing".

Then you need to work on your critical reading skills :\. Firstly, I'm not using any of this to directly say (Thok is scum). Secondly, of those I do find suspicious, I have substantive arguments that make sense.

I don't see how (in the case of (1) and (3)) those actions are likely to indicate that someone is scum, and in the case of (2), I just don't see it.

They don't indicate he is scum independently, that wasn't the point....

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously anymore.

This is nothing but rhetoric; a baseless, empty sentence.

Gorrad said he didn't want to mess up another "secret plan" like he did earlier, so he put a weak FOS on to see where it went. Even so, he explicitly stated he didn't like the Iammars wagon, but that he'd like to hear what Iammars had to say.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHY IT SHOULD THROW UP RED FLAGS. IT'S INDICATING WISHY-WASHINESS, WHICH IS MORE OFTEN SEEN IN SCUM.

Yeah? What about a townie power role who has some suspicion on him and doesn't want to be outed, or a vanilla who doesn't want to be lynched?

SCUM ESPECIALLY LIKE TO APPEAR THAT THEY ARE AGAINST THEIR PARTNERS WITHOUT PUTTING GENUINE PRESSURE, WHICH IS WHAT SAID QUOTE DID.

I don't really see how he was anything more than superficially seeming to apply pressure -- the content of his post was basically "I don't buy it, but let's see what Iammars says." This wouldn't have gotten him any leverage if Iammars showed up scum.

PS: In Mafia, the scum often do not tell the truth.

Wait, no, you're kidding!? People... LIE... in mafia??? Please, teach me more.[/sarcasm]

Come on, Thesp! I'm saying I didn't see a lie where you did. Obviously people lie. I tried to explain why I didn't think Gorrad was lying -- not that no one lies..

I'm uncertain why you think I should have taken Gorrad at his word when he said he was just trying to play along, particularly when I thought he was likely to be scum at the time.

Wait -- you are using this bit as an argument for why he was scum. You can't base an argument for someone being scum with "I thought he was likely to be scum, so I interpreted this as himg being scum." Circular arguments have no place in mafia.

[Guardian]

Blah, Guardian feels like he's trying to make stuff up, which gives me a big Open 19 vibe which means he needs to be lynched ASAP.

I find it hard to believe you think that. The reasoned arguments here are a FAR cry from the bullshit I was espousing in 19. For everyone's refernce: In 19 I was scum and, for example, I pursued one player for 5+ game days, and one of my main arguments against him was

that he responded to posts

. Comparing that to my arguments here is absurd.

---

Thesp -- you followed my case on Iammars for longer than I did, for a while there. Now I'm not making any sense and you find it hard to take me seriously, and you should be slapped if you quote me? Pretty HUGE turnaround.

Also, I note that you quoted about half of my points, I assume in your opinion the worst ones. If you're going to quote my posts and respond, at least do a half decent job of doing so.

Ignoring me, claiming I'm making things up, and asserting that you find it hard to take me seriously aren't going to make me go away, or make my arguments go away.

A very easy thing to do as scum is to ignore arguments against you; if you aren't called on it, it is a much better tact than actually responding, as attackers of you can easily slip to the background and you can start wagons on others. I find it hard to believe Thesp, as town, would decide to completely ignore a player. What if I were scum? Wouldn't he want to pay close attention and point that out. Very suspicious.

[Guardian]

Blah, Guardian feels like he's trying to make stuff up, which gives me a big Open 19 vibe which means he needs to be lynched ASAP.

I find it hard to believe you think that. The reasoned arguments here are a FAR cry from the bullshit I was espousing in 19. For everyone's refernce: In 19 I was scum and, for example, I pursued one player for 5+ game days, and one of my main arguments against him was

that he responded to posts

. Comparing that to my arguments here is absurd.

You've attacked people for confirming like a pirate and copying your haikus, among other things. There's also the "trap" you claimed to have set.

These are reasoned argument?

Yes.

Pirate -- definitely best lead to go on at the time I brought it up, and stayed the best lead for a while.

Copying my haikus -- Maybe I am wrong about finding it suspicious, but I find it suspicious, legitimately. I think scum see a townie doing it and it being acceptable, and then copy it, possibly subconsciously to fit in/feel town.

Guardian was town in this game.

I knew Gorrad was scum. He tried to copy my poems, I was going to bring that up as a scum tell but I thought y'all would find that ridiculous.

It "worked" as a tell in that game, but I didn't bring it up until Gorrad had died because I didn't want to draw suspicion for it. I didn't want to make the same mistake here.

"Trap" -- Yeah, I see no problems with this, with Thesp at 4 votes. What would have been scummy is if people quoted it and voted Thesp because of it.

---

I find it suspicious that Iammars's first long, substantive post of the game came right after I made a post about him.

Also, I don't like that this major contribution is a List of All the Players (tm) -- especially with how many people he just didn't comment on, that kind of thing is extremely easy for scum to do without leading a trail back to their partners. I'm fairly sure that I've expressed this same suspicion of LoAtPs elsewhere, if anyone cares.

---

It isnt minis. It's thesp and guardian.

You are both banned from quoting each other. Paraphrasing for the win.

I swear I'm going to be a good boy about this, though it's taking every ounce of my restraint. Guardian is lucky I'm not Twito.

Thesp, how am I "lucky" that you're not willing to engage in discussion with me? How are you being a "good boy" by not quoting what I say? How does that benefit anyone, whatsoever? And since when did cicero become the authority on what we are/aren't allowed to do?

[Guardian]

unvote vote: Iammars

We have a little over a week to reach a majority. I don't think we're going to get to a perfect lynch by then, and I think Iammars has been one of the most suspicious players, and I think his lynch is the most information-providing one possible.

Almost everyone has taken some stance or another on Iammars, and while his posts aren't that helpful in finding buddies if he is scum, the posts of everyone else about him are.

Combine this with my thinking that, aside from Thesp, I think he is the most suspicious person in the game, and I think we should lynch him. Additionally, Thesp has the spotlight on him in part because he is contributing so much, and as a player who likes to contribute a lot and gets greatly frustrated when wagons form on me because of that (oh god, Big Love Mafia ), I don't particularly want to encourage going after the most frequent posters. Thesp does look quite suspicious to me, and if a wagon develops on Thesp, I will get back on it, and I won't complain, but I want to make a case for an Iammars lynch:

1. Very scummy.
   
2. Most information providing lynch possible.
   
3. Not getting rid of a (trying to be) helpful townie if he is lynched and is town.

My reasons for finding him scummy can be found in post 612 and

I find it suspicious that Iammars's first long, substantive post of the game came right after I made a post about him.

Also, I don't like that this major contribution is a List of All the Players (tm) -- especially with how many people he just didn't comment on, that kind of thing is extremely easy for scum to do without leading a trail back to their partners. I'm fairly sure that I've expressed this same suspicion of LoAtPs elsewhere, if anyone cares.

For the second time, I find myself encouraging Iammars votes. Go ahead .

---

To respond to Iammars's most recent bit:

I find it suspicious that Iammars's first long, substantive post of the game came right after I made a post about him.

Also, I don't like that this major contribution is a List of All the Players (tm) -- especially with how many people he just didn't comment on, that kind of thing is extremely easy for scum to do without leading a trail back to their partners. I'm fairly sure that I've expressed this same suspicion of LoAtPs elsewhere, if anyone cares

Or it could be that I was prodded by Mr Stoofer.

Were

you prodded by Mr Stoofer?

uot;]You seem to like jumping to conclusions about my actions.

I'd like you to further justify this sentence; I like analyzing your actions, definitely. Jumping to conclusions seems a bit strong.

And my list wasn't as much a LoAtP but a post where I put down all of my thoughts as I was reading the thread and organized them by the player list for ease of reading.

So your post, which had a list of all the players with your comments on each player, was not a list of all the players? I'm a bit baffled how you might justify saying that.

[Guardian]

And my list wasn't as much a LoAtP but a post where I put down all of my thoughts as I was reading the thread and organized them by the player list for ease of reading.

So your post, which had a list of all the players with your comments on each player, was not a list of all the players? I'm a bit baffled how you might justify saying that.

It was exactly what he said: all the responses he needed to give sorted by the player who asked them. Even if that IS a LOATP, I fail to see how that is a bad thing. Would you rather he didn't answer questions aimed at him?

It might be a semantic argument, but it's a bleeping contradiction. That is not weak.

[Guardian]

He's obviously scum trying to push attacks with really weak reasons attached to rhetorical flourishes to not make them appear pathetic, and getting rid of him would help town a ton since we wouldn't have to listen to him any more.

Thok, stop holding back, tell us how you

really

feel.

I reject completely that my reasons for attacks are weak, and I am completely baffled by your not wanting to listen to me. You haven't responded to my explaining how every single (3) line of argument of mine that you questioned as being reasoned argument is in fact valid, and I've been proactive in making 2 of the most significant wagons of the game happen. There have been about 4. You're saying you'd rather I just lurked, and we had a Gorrad wagon and a Kscope wagon? Bullshit.

You want to get rid of one of the most vocal proactive townies. Why, Thok? I would not be surpised if I was dead after this coming night for the cases I'm making -- and you want to lynch me for them? Ridiculous.

[Guardian]

You want to get rid of one of the most vocal proactive townies.

How could you possibly know he is a townie on day one? Sounds like a slip.

Unvote: Thesp

Vote: Guardian

how is that a scumtell? He's referring to himself for god's sake.

...

---

I find cicero's point about scum strategy interesting, and possibly accurate/applicable but:

1. It would mean Thesp is town, something I'm not sure I'm comfortable with
2. It boils down to WIFOM easily
3. Why are you thinking about scum strategy, cicero?

[Guardian]

MGM - read my post just above yours. Nobody knows who's townie in this game.*

NOBODY.

So how is that a scumtell? He's referring to himself for god's sake.



*MrBuddy Lee exception applies. And even then only mostly.

When he made the comment he was talking about Thesp.

No, I was talking about Thok wanting to lynch me.

I was, as cicero pointed out, self-referencing... I find it hard to believe you aren't getting that.

[Guardian]

Thok's right about Guardian's playstyle. Accursed Ork massclaim...

Woah woah, it's enough that Thok is proposing (and heck maybe even believing) this. How is my playstyle significantly different here:

BTW Thok, I'm not overtly attacking you because I think you can out-argue me as you scum me town, just as well as you can out argue me as me town you scum. I find you very suspicious for this attack on me, especially since you are picking out selective points that help you and others you don't, but there isn't much concrete to point to, and generally things result badly if I just say "I find X very suspicious. Why? OMGUS."



Go find a real scumbag, wtf.

The one thing your attacks are encouraging is me posting less. For all you can say about you not attacking me for being active, and how I need to be active, and whatever whatever, its a choice, a choice you are discouraging. THis same exact thing happaned to me in Big Love Mafia, and I stopped posting and got replaced because of it. Not a signle one of your points against me is not punishing me for being vocal. Not a asignle one.

[Guardian]

And my point was that because Guardian is always aggressive, as scum he'd be willing to push cases simply to push cases, independent of any other factors, including whether or not he believed the case and that you should not assume Guardian believes his case just because he's pushing it strongly.

This is a completely false assumption. When I'm town, I push the cases I believe in the most.

Your line of thinking would have me pushing cases that I don't believe in, as town. I completely believe in my current case on Iammars.

[Guardian]

Thok's right about Guardian's playstyle. Accursed Ork massclaim...

Woah woah, it's enough that Thok is proposing (and heck maybe even believing) this. How is my playstyle significantly different here:

The point about your play style (which I think Gorrad mangled by his comment), was that you aren't the type to sit back and not participate. I don't consider your massive amount of participation by itself a scum tell; I consider the fact that you specifically keep running up people that strike me as townish and that you use bad reasons to do so scummy.

Well, I disagree on both counts; I find them scummy, and I find my reasons to be excellent.

The context was that cicero was wondering why any scum would behave the way you were doing; my point was that I'd expect you to be aggressive independent of your alignment, so that cicero's comment about scum wouldn't necessarily be applicable to you.

that makes sense.

BTW Thok, I'm not overtly attacking you because I think you can out-argue me as you scum me town, just as well as you can out argue me as me town you scum. I find you very suspicious for this attack on me, especially since you are picking out selective points that help you and others you don't, but there isn't much concrete to point to, and generally things result badly if I just say "I find X very suspicious. Why? OMGUS."

Oh come on. When has "I'm afraid things will go badly for me" ever kept you from OMGUSing in the past?

When I was town and didn't want to be mislynched. Something of an example of this, off the top of my head, was in Ork mafia, when I didn't push a case on Gorrad for using poems, because I thought that might be suspicious.

I could see you holding back if you ever found me town, but you've repeated said that you find things I've said scummy, but you apparently don't want to try to call me out or get me lynched.

There's nothing I can put my finger on.

Go find a real scumbag, wtf.

I have found a real scumbag, kthx die.

No, you haven't.

The one thing your attacks are encouraging is me posting less. For all you can say about you not attacking me for being active, and how I need to be active, and whatever whatever, its a choice, a choice you are discouraging. THis same exact thing happaned to me in Big Love Mafia, and I stopped posting and got replaced because of it. Not a signle one of your points against me is not punishing me for being vocal. Not a asignle one.

Have I ever said "Guardian is scummy for posting a lot?" I think I've specifically said that I'm attacking you for the contents of your posts and not for the sheer quantity. Don't try to use me as an excuse to hide in the background near deadline.

Why not? If I'd just sat back like, say, Iammars, and contributed next to nothing, you'd not be suspicious of me at all.

No matter how much you say otherwise, I am being punished for being vocal; if I say enough things, you're going to find something or another you can find scummy, especially if I say what is on my mind, because my thoughts don't always make sense.

Again this makes me think we should get a lurker. I (wooh look, diverting attention to the biggest wagon) am beginning to appreciate the wagon on Kscope. I think Iammars is better, but heck, Kscope has a better shot at being scum than me, and his play right now would be GREAT play as scum in the Thok scumhunting world.

Don't be a nail that sticks our and you won't get hammered down.

[Guardian]

Also, I read something of Guardian's that confused me.

Again this makes me think we should get a lurker. I (wooh look, diverting attention to the biggest wagon) am beginning to appreciate the wagon on Kscope. I think Iammars is better, but heck, Kscope has a better shot at being scum than me, and his play right now would be GREAT play as scum in the Thok scumhunting world.

Guardian, why do you think Kscop has a better shot at being scum than you?

Because I know I'm not scum.

Also, why would his play of active lurking be great?

This is directed at Thok -- I said in the THok scumhunting world. Thok, and correct me if I am wrong, has not been at all interested in looking at lurkers except for a few throwaway posts (notably where he voted and unvoted RC in 3 posts over the course of as many days). He instead has had two main targets of TSQ and me. He targeted TSQ when TSQ was posting a lot, TSQ's posting has lessened, who does THok go after? Me, possibly the player with the most posts and original thought in the game thus far.

Thok seems to only really be considering active posters in his scum hunting, which made me say Kscope's lurking would be ideal play to get around Thok's scrutiny.

Furthermore, why do you want to go after lurkers?

Cicero's points make sense; it makes most sense for a scum to lurk right now. This is (again, hard for me to swallow, ego and all) making me reconsider how much I am right about Thesp -- does it really make sense for him, as scum, to make BS cases? Not really -- even if I don't believe what he is saying, it makes sense that he does. I'm going to continue to ponder this.

Why Kscope? Personally, I don't think there is a better chance of him being scum than RC or Sir T (although supposedly Sir T has v/la so that is different, so maybe Kscope has better chance than him.) But, as an active lurker, he isn't really even trying to contribute.

OF the lurkers, I definitely think Iammars is the best shot at being scum; Stoofer missed it but my vote should be there, I thought.

vote: Iammars

.

I'll retract this if neccesary to make a lynch happen, but I highly prefer an Iammars lynch to a Kscope one.

[Guardian]

Mgm, it would be so much easier to take you seriously if you had

any

idea of the context of me bringing that up -- something you'd get by reading the past page.

[Guardian]

I disagree highly with both above statements.

People have begun to take stances on Kscope. I believe his lynch will give some info, though not an optimal level.

Lurking is most definitely a sign of scumhood in some instances.

[Guardian]

Erg0, I agree with the above post in that I think the town is going for an easy lynch on Scope.

I feel that we disagree, however, in that Mars would be much better, and I obviously disagree with you that I would be much better .

[Guardian]

[quote="Erg0"]We've still got five days to reorganise our votes if we need to reduce the required majority, and another vote on Guardian could make a major difference to the voting landscape.[/quote]Honestly, forget that. I have no interest in claiming today, never mind being lynched.

unvote: Iammars vote: KaleiÐoscøpe

If an Iammars wagon appears out of thin air, I'll join it gladly. Otherwise, a scope lynch is better than a me-lynch.

I'm of the mindset that if Scope has something to claim, he should claim it soon. If we're not lynching him, we need to find someone other than he or I in the span of 5 days.

[Guardian]

For those considering voting me as a healthy Kscope alternative, let me outline why my current voters are voting me:

Erg0 -- I abandoned the Iammars wagon due to people not buying it. This is the best reason of anyone voting me, even though it isn't true; I can see how he is seeing it.

Thok -- I am "making stuff up." I've responded in detail to everything he brought up as "me making stuff up", he hasn't replied, and his vote is still on me.

Mgm -- originally voted me because he misread my post in which I said Thok was trying to lynch a town player -- I am that town player. I obviously know that. duh.

Iammars (considering) -- OMGUS, as far as I can see.



I've decided that no matter what, I'll stick through this game, unlike Big Love Mafia, but the reasons for voting me here are just as bullshit as the reasons for voting me there were.

I maintain that there is a wagon on me largely, if not exclusively, because I am the most prolific poster and proactive player and there are more of my posts/actions to attack

.

Mafia games want to ENCOURAGE posting, not DISCOURAGE it. Thok MGM & Mars's reasons are all bullshit, and Erg0's reason is at best misguided.

[Guardian]

I'm generally bad at telling when people are joking, and am of the opinion that joking has little place in mafia, because when you do something suspicious you can just go "oh, I was joking." :\

[Guardian]

I'm generally bad at telling when people are joking, and am of the opinion that joking has little place in mafia, because when you do something suspicious you can just go "oh, I was joking." :\

How do your haikus
Get an exception from this
I would like to know

Haikus are not jokes.
They are simply different.
Doesn't imply jest.

[Guardian]

I'm fine with you having fun, just I'm not fine with talking about game relevant information and then saying you are joking. I tend to have lots of fun while playing mafia (except when people vote for me for bullshit/no reason).

Like Flameaxe's recent vote, for example. Any explanation at all, Flameaxe?

[Guardian]

Thok -- I am "making stuff up." I've responded in detail to everything he brought up as "me making stuff up", he hasn't replied, and his vote is still on me.

Actually, there's at least two arguments I've complained about that you haven't discussed (your comment asking about whether or not Stoofer actually prodded Iammars, when it's a matter of public record that Iammars was prodded

O.O? Really? I missed that, where did you bringit up? Where did Stoofer??

and my analysis of what Iammars' comment about not knowing what Stoofer thinks of his role actually means.

Not sure I read this either.

Also, you're turning a lot of the conversation between us into a "he said, she said". Your argument defending your the haiku and confirming like a pirate arguments ultimately boil down to "They are good arguments because I say they are good arguments."

I've said, as a pro-town player, in Ork mafia, that I thought copying my haiku was a scumtell. Maybe I am wrong, but I, as town, think this. So no.

This is most blatant with the confirming like a pirate argument; no matter how much you repeat it, there's no particular reason to believe that Iammars wasn't simply making a joke.

I don't think there is such thing as simply making a joke in mafia. I remember someone has a title IT'S A JOKE (emptyger?) to prove that.

Also, I'm partially voting you still because I don't really think your response to my attacks on you match my protown Guardian meta. In particular, you seem intent on slandering my scum hunting abilities, which seems to imply that you think I'm hunting scum and hence town.

wtf? I've said how I find you suspicious but can't put my finger on why. mostly it is BECAUSE of your slanderously bad scumhunting here -- I know Thok to be better than this.

(Yes, there are multiple scum groups, but you seem more interested on trying to lynch lurkers then on considering the possibility that somebody attacking you is scum.)

why would I be more likely to do this as scum than town?

I don't want you to have fun.

And now ther serious answer? Or you don't have one?

[Guardian]

I'm fine with you having fun, just I'm not fine with talking about game relevant information and then saying you are joking. I tend to have lots of fun while playing mafia (except when people vote for me for bullshit/no reason).

You've failed to establish that Mars' confirmation "Yar" is game-relevant. That's going to be a pretty tough one to sell.

How could it possibly be conceived to be not game relevant?

This game is *called* PIRATES v ninjas. Confirming AS_A_PIRATE is not game relevant???

???????

[Guardian]

I don't want you to have fun.

And now ther serious answer? Or you don't have one?

I think he was referring to me.

I wasn't.

So now, after Iammars's incorrect assumption -- the serious answer: why did you vote me? and how could not wanting me to have fun have been your reason at that time? I hadn't said that bullshit votes make the game un-fun for me until after you bullshit voted me.

[Guardian]

Yar. Never mind then, matey.

WTF.............. this makes me want to claw my eyes out.

[Guardian]

It's a confirmation post - the game proper hasn't even started yet. That's like arguing that what someone said in the signup thread is game-relevant (I am aware that this has already happened).

In the signup thread, we haven't gotten our roles yet.

IN the confirmation thread, we HAD gotten our roles, and stoofer said to treat it as part of night 1. Clearly you see the difference, nO????

[Guardian]

Vote: Guardian

Whats funny is you believe the things you type.

and yet you are still voting for me?

you posit I believe the things I type (true) and still vote me? Why? How can you possibly justify this?

[Guardian]

Flameaxe, since you've provided no reason, still, for voting me, I'll assume it is unfettered bandwagoning?

and you last post makes absolutely no sense. seriously, diaf.

erg0 and mgm at least appear to believe they are doing the town a service in voting me. thok i think is scum, iammars, is at least trying to appear reasonable.

you and ultima avalon are just voting me for... nothing. it's really frustrating, and ruins the game (for me at least -- i bet some scum [maybe kscope and his buddes] are really enjoying it). remove your heads from your asses.

[Guardian]

If an Iammars wagon appears out of thin air, I'll join it gladly. Otherwise, a scope lynch is better than a me-lynch.

I'm of the mindset that if Scope has something to claim, he should claim it soon. If we're not lynching him, we need to find someone other than he or I in the span of 5 days.

In other words, you want to survive and would lynch badly to make it happen. There are other choices than you and Kscope, but you make no effort to look at other suspects. That first para is just a false dilemma.

We have 5 days. I want to look at mars. Then Erg0 posts some bullshit about trying to manufacture a last minute wagon on me.

Saying I am not intersted in non-Kscope targets is categorically untrue.

[Guardian]

It's a confirmation post - the game proper hasn't even started yet. That's like arguing that what someone said in the signup thread is game-relevant (I am aware that this has already happened).

In the signup thread, we haven't gotten our roles yet.

IN the confirmation thread, we HAD gotten our roles, and stoofer said to treat it as part of night 1. Clearly you see the difference, nO????

Let's assume for a moment that it is game relevant: how could you possibly know at the very first post in the game whether pirates or ninjas are scum without being scum yourself?

Stoofer's death scene had a pirate kill (obviously) and what appeared to be a ninja kill. It was completely obvious pirates were scum. Mars confirmed like a pirate.

Why confirm like scum, unless you are scum trying to do something tricky? (or joking, apparently :\)

[Guardian]

Everyone voting for me (with the possible exception of Erg0) I think is a fool, or scum, or both:

Thok - scum
Mgm - fool
Flameaxe - fool
UA - fool

I can see how it might be seen that Thok is town, and I plan on looking more closely at him later (though, as I said a few days ago, I *should* be on v/la right now).

Thok aside, are the last three not trivially obvious to anyone (besides those 3)? If so, I'll try to explain in detail. To me, all 3 of their votes are just premised on ridiculous logic/assumptions.

[Guardian]

It's a confirmation post - the game proper hasn't even started yet. That's like arguing that what someone said in the signup thread is game-relevant (I am aware that this has already happened).

In the signup thread, we haven't gotten our roles yet.

IN the confirmation thread, we HAD gotten our roles, and stoofer said to treat it as part of night 1. Clearly you see the difference, nO????

Let's assume for a moment that it is game relevant: how could you possibly know at the very first post in the game whether pirates or ninjas are scum without being scum yourself?

Stoofer's death scene had a pirate kill (obviously) and what appeared to be a ninja kill. It was completely obvious pirates were scum. Mars confirmed like a pirate.

Why confirm like scum, unless you are scum trying to do something tricky? (or joking, apparently :\)

Right, because we all confirmed AFTER Stoofer gave us the death scene.

Yup. No bullshit here.

ROFL you are an ibecile.

I called Iammars scummy after the death scene.

at that point in time, I had the information of his confirming like a pirate, and the death scene, implying pirates = scum

. With that information, I put 1 + 1 = 2, and voted Mars.

holy shit, this is amusing, and sad.

[Guardian]

ha ha ha i'm such a twat

qft

[Guardian]

you two are fucking incredible.

[Guardian]

logging out of mafiascum for the night, possibly for the week,

you fuckers make it not worth it.

stoofer, if you feel the need to replace/modkill me, i understand, but im sick of bullshit like this ruining every large game i've ever been in (aside from ork mafia, guess i was saved by being unequestionable town helping)


persecuting active players, especially with bullshit tongue and cheek crap, is stupid, anti-game, and anti-site.

bye, at least for 24 hours.

[Guardian]

Sorry for anyone I offended, but I was and am very annoyed at this game.

I really think Kscope & or I should claim, soon, if someone is to be lynched Saturday. I'd hate for us to be in a Kscope or me mentality and have both of us have believable claims......

A Guardian wagon remains preferable to a Scope or Mars one. My meta on G is inconclusive- I've seen him act like this with the mass omgus 'everyone against me is either scum or moron' thing as both town and scum. Though there's some validity to the claim that he's drawing more attention because he's active, it's a long way from true to suggest that it's the main reason for his wagon. That's massively overplaying it. He has, after all, implied scumminess twice off the basis of things that I don't consider scumtells.

Had I been inactive as, Sir T, or Rosso, or YOU Fonz, there would be about 0 votes on me right now. I'm very surprised Kscope got to so many votes.

That is what I mean by it being the main reason for my wagon.

I find it interesting that you rank Kscope less scummy than me, but your two OTHER targets are 2 of the 3 I'd pushed today. Then you say I find people scummy for things that aren't scumtells. :\.



TSQ: I am a sensitive person, and I get annoyed by crap logic vs. me in mafia. I apologize for reacting so harshly, but as for me having thin skin, I don't see why that merits "gtfo, good riddance" ...

I really don't see why people think Guardian is more likely to be scum (especially after his genuine-looking tantrum), and I don't think he should be lynched today.

If you spend any time reading Open 19, you wouldn't consider Guardian's tantrum a good argument argument for him being town.

In Open 19, day 4/5 is all I can think that you might be referring to, and at that point, I believed the reasons for voting me *were* BS.

I'd say me getting frustrated isn't neccesarily an indicator of my alignment (though Open 19 is the only game I remember where I got frustrated as scum), but it is a credible indicator that I think the reasons people are voting me are completely invalid.

---

KS is reluctant to claim, etc., I'm thinking I'll need to claim today, and I'm tempted to just get it over with. It really sucks for us that I have to claim today, it is anti-town and stupid, but if I must, I will.

If nothing major happens between now and tomorrow to convince me otherwise, I'll be claiming.


Scope's claim will be a major factor for me in terms of if I think he should be lynched or if we need to speed find someone else in the last few days....

[Guardian]

ps: Gorrad, cow, MBL: Only one of you is voting for me or scope, and none of you have been particularly active.

Being pseudo-confirmed town is a great chance to *lead*, and make things happen, without lots of suspicion back for it :\. so use this opportunity.

[Guardian]

Haiku doesn't mean ninja to me. Yarr does mean pirate. Haiku means buddhist monk. I've never seen a ninja say anything.

[Guardian]

And, at that time in the game, I thouight you were copying me pre-game announcement that I'd use haikus. So I didn't aprticularly think that it had anything to do with game-flavor, even if I associated haiku with ninja.

[Guardian]

I disagree that Guardian has held his points - if you look at the post that I quoted on the previous page, he defended his original switch to Thesp by saying that he wasn't all that sold on the Mars wagon. Contrast that to his recent assertion that the "Yarr" tell is sound, and you should be able to see the shift in his position.

You're bending my actions.

I switched away from Mars when the yarr bit was *the only* bit we had on him.

I switched back when, after analyzing his play, I noticed it hadn't gotten at all better -- the yarr thing was always a strike against him, and his lack of contribution over the rest of the game made me think he had a great chance to be scum.

This whole game you've misinterpreted and tried to enlarge the importance of my switching off of Mars to Thesp. I can see you doing this as town, maybe, but seriosuly? I switched off because you convinced me that lynching him on that alone was a bad idea. I switched back because yarr + the rest of his play all game, there was nothing town showing, and several reasons to think he was scum.

[Guardian]

And, at that time in the game, I thouight you were copying me pre-game announcement that I'd use haikus. So I didn't aprticularly think that it had anything to do with game-flavor, even if I associated haiku with ninja.

See? Wasn't that easier than throwing a hissy-fit? My vote stays on you for calling our logic crap, when your own logic is actually given in the dictionary when looking up the phrase.

I still disagree with you, patently. I don't want to get into this again, cuz I'll get angry, but your logic is ridiculous, whereas mine makes sense.

Temper tantrum didn't exactly help.

I was mad. Sorry.

FOS: Thesp

There's a thing called appealing to emotion. It's a last resort scum tactic thats used when he is unable to come up with any more lies. Which is exactly what happened.

You're FOSing Thesp for... interpreting my actions? Slapping the "appeal to emotion.. = scum" on my play doesn't make sense for many reasons.

[Guardian]

Well, this is dumb. This will be, assuming none of the people before me are lying scum, the 1 (MBL) 2 (Fritz) 34 (cow + gorrad) 5 (kscope).... 6th town power role outed today. Oh, 7th, DGB died.

Congratulations everyone, especially me for playing badly and being suspicious, and those who pioneered this innovative and telling wagon on me. :\.

I'm Samwise Gamgee. I am a tracker. I think me being more confirmed is more important than MBL having a shroud of mystery -- I happened to target him N1, and he didn't target anyone for vig-ing.

I've never been a fan of Kscope's wagon; I joined it in hopes that maybe he was scum and at least wouldn't be a power role, and I wouldn't have to claim today, since me having to claim today only adds to the suckitude of day 1. Alas, while not sure I believe Kscope's claim, I definitely agree with Thesp's logic for not lynching him... so in that sense I "believe" his claim, you guys should believe mine, and we need a new wagon in 2 days.

unvote: Kscope

...

vote: Rosso Carne

This is pretty much a shot in the dark... He was amazingly hypocritical in joining Kscope's wagon though.


I *still* think Mars is a good wagon, I think MBF has been suspicious, Thesp I found suspicious earlier but I'm not sure I want lynched today... TSQ has some good points against Twomz, and there are worse things than trusting TSQ's gut (if he's town). Thesp, I'm not sure if I understand case against Skruffs.

Yeah :\....

[Guardian]

Oh, last thing: Kscope, in addition to answering if your partner is confirmed town to you -- do you know if you are confirmed town to your partner?

Maybe I'll do a re-read. 36 pages is way too long for a day, though, like I said earlier :\.

Later.

[Guardian]

Flavor: I'm a hobbit, no one notices me, I can sneak around easily and follow people.

I can't get much better than that without quoting.

[Guardian]

Well, Gorrad, at what time in the game are you referring to? When I first brought it up, I thought it was the best thing we had in the game.

Now, I look as it as adding to the fact that Iammars's play has been rather lurky and not town-helpful. At this point, it is part of my suspicion for Iammars, not the totality.

[Guardian]

Thok, you seem to be suggesting that I am making up my claim because there are other characters that fit tracker better in LOTR.

I agree with you, not sure why Stoofer picked Sam. Aragorn immediately comes to mind, for me.

Translation: If I were making this up, I'd have made it up better.

But, I am not making it up, my role is not Aragorn, or some other LOTR character. It is Sam. And I am a tracker. And that is that.

[Guardian]

TSQ, sadly, I can really see where you are coming from. Wrong conclusion, but the logic makes sense. :\

Protip: Lynch someone else.

[Guardian]

Yeah, I'm pretty useful. I can see the meta-gaming though; as scum when I've fake claimed, I think I've always claimed info roles. Not sure I've ever claimed vanilla, even.

Skruffs, you do make a good point at refuting how my role "couldn't fit in the setup" though. Maybe people will consider that.

Hadn't thought once I'd claimed people who weren't voting me before would then vote me o.O.

[Guardian]

Guardian: 5 (Thok, Flameaxe, Iammars, Kison, Thestatusquo)
Rosso Carne: 4 (Guardian, Twomz, cicero, Thesp)
Thesp: 4 (Gorrad, MGM, Claus, Erg0)
KaleiÐoscøpe: 3 (hasdgfas, Rosso Carne, mikeburnfire)
mikeburnfire: 2 (JordanA24, The Fonz)

Not voting: 6 (Skruffs, Samruc, MrBuddyLee, UltimaAvalon, KaleiÐoscøpe, Xtoxm)

---

I think the above is accurate, but correct me if wrong.

The votes on Kscope are outdated, I don't think it is reasonable to lynch him today.

I would say the votes on me are outdated, but Thok and TSQ do have some interesting meta-game logic on me... I agree with Skruffs that the role definitely "fits" in the game, though.
Just, really, you want to lynch a tracker day 1 after I've claimed?? Me having claimed is bad enough. Me being likely to be lynched later in the game is bad enough. But let me try and get some meaningful results first, no??

Thesp I found scummy earlier, but not sure I buy into a wagon of him now, again relying somewhat heavily on cicero's logic.

Rosso, well, obviously I support that.

MBF is an interesting alternative, I could see supporting his wagon, but I don't see a compelling reason to lynch him instead of RC.

My backup to RC would probably be MBF, but I'm hoping for a RC lynch, at this point.'

Twomz is not completely out of the picture for me, too, but he's not high ranked.

We have less than 48 hours, by my count, to find a lynch.

[Guardian]

Rosso has 7 votes. He is the best chance at a lynch.

If you show up, unvote and vote him.

No lynch day 1 is pretty disastrous :\. I guess if he is a power role, no lynch better, but seriously we need info.

Even Thesp at this point seems like a lost cause. See you guys tomorrow.

[Guardian]

people, like Fonz and MGM, who are reluctant to make a lynch happen// trying to find a reason not to vote RC and are calling this lynch suspicious should be looked at closely tomorrow, especially if RC is scum. Remember this if I'm dead. Even if RC is town, why do they not want a lynch to happen?

Some players (besides the 4 claimed ones) look obviously town to me but I'm not sure revealing that is a good thing so I won't.

looks like RC lynch is going to happen. Here's to hoping we get lucky and he's lurkerscum.

[Guardian]

Just checked in preview and we are 12 votes on RC.

people, like Fonz and MGM, who are reluctant to make a lynch happen// trying to find a reason not to vote RC and are calling this lynch suspicious should be looked at closely tomorrow, especially if RC is scum. Remember this if I'm dead. Even if RC is town, why do they not want a lynch to happen?

Because Rosso might be some sort of power role? It's clear that The Fonz and MGM want some sort of lynch to happen; they just happen to prefer a Thesp lynch to a Rosso lynch.

I think at the point we are at that wanting a non-Rosso lynch for today is equivalent to wanting no lynch. I disagree entirely that a Thesp lynch is just as viable as a Rosso lynch when Rosso has 3 more votes and we have like 12 hours left or some.

I'll be very sad if Rosso is a power role. Rosso has had every chance to stop his wagon and/or claim if he is a power role, or even townie. He's done *nothing*.

Some players (besides the 4 claimed ones) look obviously town to me but I'm not sure revealing that is a good thing so I won't.

This seems like a pointless comment. I also have no idea why a protown player would want to spit out his list of likely protown players less than 24 hours before a deadline.

Yeah maybe it was pointless. I wrote them out, but thought about it, and I decided it was bad to. So maybe I should have deleted the whole thing. I was paranoid of being dead tomorrow wanted to leave thoughts behind. But with all the suspicion on me and lots of other claimed power roles I guess scum groups wouldn't. And even if I am dead, saying people I think are town just makes them get killed. So that's why I said revealing them is not sure good thing.

This feels like an attempt by scumyou to suggest nightkill targets to other scum groups.

To other scum groups who can read scum-me's mind? o.o It was just me editing my post at 12:30 or what. I don't understand how me not mentioning players makes scums be able to find them.

[Guardian]

MBL, you had to kill the person I was most sure of as being town? .

I have a result on a player. I'm not sure me claiming the player or nature of my result immediately is the best thing for us, here. I'll not comment further about my result in this post; what is the general consensus on what I should do?

Time for a re-read, I hope. Day 1 was much too long (pages), though .

[Guardian]

It's clear that Guardian doesn't have a result of the form "X targeted hasdgfas", as there's absolutely no reason to hold such a result back.

Oh?

In Ork mafia, Shanba held back results for multiple days, with great effect. I am not a cop-mason (nor am I even a cop ), as he was, so I'll reveal my result sometime today, but doing so immediately,

especially

if I have "X targeted cow", seems like it would stifle discussion.

[Guardian]

Thok:
1) I won't withold it for over night periods, but I think gauging reactions before I reveal is good.
2) I am a significant target of suspicion. Shanba wasn't, really.


I'm also curious about what happened with Rosso.

Skruffs, I didn't even realize you were assaulting me . I thought dead Xtoxm town meant you were suspicous of Thok, and Kscope for some reason .

I think I'll won't reveal my result for a while. Not hearing it immediately should keep scum on their toes and allow discussion to progress naturally.

Thok, I'm proud you hold my town play in such high regard but, reading Big Love or even Ork mafia, I think you are off re: me being good in big games. At least as it comes to dealing with people -- I'm always """suspicious""". So frustrating.

My suspicions and ideas are usually right on though. In Big Love mafia, I got 2/4 before replacing out. In Ork, I got 2 on the second day, and got the only scum lynch that happened (until lylo).

Thok, what do you think about Fonz, tsq, Thesp, and Erg0?
Fonz, what do you think about Thok, tsq, Thesp and Erg0?
TSQ/replacement, what do you think about Thok, Fonz, Thesp, Erg0?
Erg0, what do you think about Fonz, Thok, Thesp, tsq?
Thesp, what do you think about Fonz, Thok, Erg0, tsq?

Those are the five players I'd like to hear from at this point, though it would be great if everyone could comment on those five players.

I'll try to get to a re-read, but I am superbusy right now. IF the above five answer that, that should be some good content though.

[Guardian]

Question for Guardian: If Xtoxm was really "the person you were most cetain was protown", why didn't you say anything when he was coming under pressure yesterday for his OMGUS vote on me?

1) Hyperbole. Gorrad & Cow were more town to me, as was MBL, as was Scope after claim.

2) He wasn't anywhere near being lynched.

3) We *had* a discussion about how it is bad to post those who I am getting high town vibes from.

[Guardian]

I used hyperbole.

[Guardian]

I think it's time Guardian put up or shut up.

what does this mean?

I made the comment about xyl because of the non-power role claimed dues, he was the one I was most sure of. But obv there are power roles, like gorrad & MBl.



Thok, how am I supposed to think Xyl was a likely vig candidate? You were about the only one finding him suspicious. Why should I intervene in that scenario? How was he a likely wagon target today?

Skruffs, I'm not sure what meta you're finding, I don't get it.

Thok, Fonz, thanks for your thoughts, 3 more needed, and anyone else who can (like Skruffs did).

[Guardian]

[quote="Mr Stoofer"]

Vote Count

Thesp: 2 (Mgm, Gorrad)
Skruffs: 1 (Thesp)
Guardian: 1 (mikeburnfire)

Not voting: 18 (Skruffs, Rogueben, Twomz, Flameaxe, The Fonz, UltimaAvalon, Claus, JordanA24, Guardian, Erg0, KaleiÐoscøpe, ooba, cicero, Iammars, Kison, Samruc, Thok, Guardian)

12 to lynch!

Deadline will be ~7th March

Under Rule [05], nobody would be lynched at deadline

[/quote]is there a reason MBL has no votes and I have two?

[Guardian]

Fonz: I have Two votes in the unvote area.
eg, I could vote twice. I'm wondering about that.

Twomz: Goblin finder? o.O No idea how to respond to that. Your role name makes sense with mine, but as for me being a goblin... I'm not, and I have no idea, man. Goblin finder??


I'd really rather not claim my results until the three who I have mentioned comment on each other. Then I'll be happy to.

[Guardian]

I want your and other's comments on the record before I reveal.

This will definitely help, even if I end up being mis-lynched today. Trust me on that. But hm, maybe if I claim now I'm more likely to be believed and less likely mis-lynched? *ponder*

I find it a little suspicious how you vote me after a goblin-finder claim in a game called pirates and ninjas after not having read the game.

[Guardian]

OK, I've been thinking for 10 minutes, and I guess it is better for me to reveal now.

I tracked Erg0 last night. Yes, he went to cow.

I asked those 5 people to comment on each other, because I hoped some would defend Erg0 (Fonz & Thok seemed to), and I thought that would be good information for us to have.

ANyways,

vote: Erg0

In case I have 2 votes for some funky reason (see the votecount I quoted)

vote: Erg0

again .

I have no idea what to think about Goblin finder, or me being "found as a Goblin", but I'm not one.

Erg0, unless he has some really great information about why he targeted cow, is scum. He should be today's lynch. If he isn't scum, feel free to lynch me the next day. But I'm fairly sure he is scum, I can't think of a reason for a town player to be targeting cow last night.

[Guardian]

OK, I've been thinking for 10 minutes, and I guess it is better for me to reveal now.

I tracked Erg0 last night. Yes, he went to cow.

I asked those 5 people to comment on each other, because I hoped some would defend Erg0 (Fonz & Thok seemed to), and I thought that would be good information for us to have.

ANyways,

vote: Erg0

In case I have 2 votes for some funky reason (see the votecount I quoted)

vote: Erg0

again .

I have no idea what to think about Goblin finder, or me being "found as a Goblin", but I'm not one.

Erg0, unless he has some really great information about why he targeted cow, is scum. He should be today's lynch. If he isn't scum, feel free to lynch me the next day. But I'm fairly sure he is scum, I can't think of a reason for a town player to be targeting cow last night.

Why wait when you have a "cop" with a guilty?

My reasons are quoted in the post you are quoting.........

[Guardian]

Well, do we even know what "goblin" means in this game?

Where do you get the connection that goblin = guilty?

Even with that, I'm not a goblin. I'll PM Stoofer to make sure, but uh, I'm *not* a goblin. I'm a *hobbit*.

I'm not surprised you want to vote me though Flameaxe, you wanted to late yesterday and I see no reason for you to be open-minded and try and find scum, instead of sticking with the same person forever. Oh wait, there are lots of good reasons for that .

[Guardian]

Fonz, you've said this repeatedly, but you've never quite explained why iirc.

So why find me suspicious?

[Guardian]

lock on: Erg0

he's lying scum.

Skruffs, I tend to agree with Fonz; wouldn't the sword be smart or whatev?

Maybe you are on to something though, that would explain how Twomz and I could both be telling the truth. Interesting find, at least. Who knows how Stoofer's mind works..

[Guardian]

Let me ask you this: of all the people that were attacking you yesterday, you said repeatedly that you thought I was the most genuine. Why, then, did you choose to track me over one of the many people that you found scummy?

Precisely because I didn't have as strong a read on you.

Everyone else attacking me, I thought was silly/scum.

You, I'd gotten a mid-range vibe from, and no one was particularly finding you suspicious.

I think great cop/tracker/whatever strategy is to target those you are not sure about. So I targeted you. And won.

---

I applaud ooba's non-group-think mentality. His point 2 is interesting, and if that convinces you to vote Erg0, great. Point 1 is the correct thing, and either way, Erg0 is scum. Town would not lie about who they targeted, plain and simple.

Ooba also brings up the point of a role switcher arounder -- that is another plausible explanation of how Twomz possibly got me as a goblin -- maybe there are other goblins out there and I got switched with one. I'm still very puzzled as to how I am a goblin. Stoofer has not yet received my PM; I'll be interested as to if/how he responds to it.

Minus Twomz (and were I twomz, I'd have a hard time not going with my investigation results) the people voting me are pretty much the same people who wanted to railroad me yesterday. You guys are still wrong .

PPE: Ooba, you were right before you changed votes. Now you are wrong. .

[Guardian]

Fonz, imagine yourself in my shoes. Imagine that I am really what I claim, and am dealt this scenario.

What am I supposed to think happened? Give me a more plausible explanation. Twomz decided to lie to railroad me, the player with most suspicion day 1? Hobbits = goblins? I'm wearing an orc suit? Please, enlighten me.

[Guardian]

Or lynch Erg0 now, since he is scum, and don't lynch me, cuz I'm not. Much better plan.

[Guardian]

At the top of this page, you were talking about how flavour makes it seem like you and Twomz could both be truthful. You're now suggesting that he's lying to railroad you. Am I not entitled to think you'll say ANYTHING if it might just postpone your death?

I'm asking you to give me ANYTHING that would explain the circumstances more plausibly than a role-switcher.

Yes, I'm willing to consider many things, to try and figure out how the facts all work together.

I asked you to give me a possible explanation of how this happened to me, assuming I am town. You've given me NOTHING.

[Guardian]

thesp, why would you want to lynch hasdfgas?

you mean Erg0, rite?



and I forecasted my result on Erg0 when I listed him in my group of 5.

whatever though, I always get mislynched proceed.

[Guardian]

gorrad, pretty sure I responded to that..

[Guardian]

unvote vote: Guardian

hammah.

hey guys. congratz, i am scum. im lurking in all games from now on, regardless of alignment. fyi. me being suspicioused of was BS.

---

I'm gonna tell you guys some things about the setup, because I want you to find the other scum -- better chance my partner somehow pulls this out.

samwise gamgee and ron weasley were my fake claims. I guess I chose the wrong one? kinda BS that bilbo is the scum finder and I claim sam...


anyways, i tried to kill erg0 last night. he is 100% scum.

I also have role-based information that Thok is on an opposing scum faction. well, my buddy does. so he is another good lynch. 100% scum.


ooba is fairly clearly scum with Erg0//bussing from last two posts. Look at him, too.

tsq & Fonz (in the eyes of my and my buddy's scumdar from yesterday) are also likely scum. thesp maybe, but long shot.

Hm. There are some lynches for you. Please employ them. go goblins. And if not goblins, gl town. we have 2 members (me + one other) so plz try not to find him/her, we were pretty disadvantaged from the start and then I effed up.

we estimate the pirates and ninjas have... 4? maybe 3? We had advantage of flavor and PR, I bet they have numbers. definitely 3 scum groups though. maybe both other scum groups are pirates and ninjas is a red herring.

goblins4ever!

[Guardian]

Enjoy being lynched tomorrow Erg0. are you a pirate or a ninja?

[Guardian]

finding me out? i bet you found me out night 0 by someone on your team targeting me.

tsq would be a high proponent of that -- erg0, tsq scum ne1?

guys, for real for real for real: pinky swear: Erg0 is scum. he = lynchz.

[Guardian]

thok ill be amused when you're lynched after erg0. if town messes next two days up, it's NOT on me .

[Guardian]

thok -- i'm not *that* nice.

erg0 -- so your scum group targeted mbl n0 too?

fonz -- you never really adequately explained how you found me out. but i dont have role based on you, just you're scummy as anything. maybe your group targeted me :\.

town, im giving u the game here so hard. if erg0 and thok aren't lynched consecutively, that's just dumb. i'm off too bed and stoofer will probably wrap this up tomorrow morning, so peace gents.

[Guardian]

I lol'd when MBL killed Thok. I was trying to tell my teammates to kill him, I'd picked up that he was the goblin protector.

Good job town.

cicero and Fonz, sorry I cocked this game up. I'd love to give another try with you as partners sometime.