Newbie 1774 - GOATs (Post-Game)

[Darkshadow64540]

I just hope to not see you with our sides fliped...

[mhsmith0]

You know it's funny, but people keep thinking I am or would be good scum, but I'm actually not.

Like, I'm not terrible, but my scum game is substantially weaker than my town game. Partially because I'm naturally a poor liar, partially because I tend to care less about being good at scum.

[mhsmith0]

Although I'll note I've progressed to the point where at least my TURBO scum game isn't a total embarrassment (usually anyway lol)

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... 37-loluber
both of us played well (well worth a read especially WITHOUT knowing my buddy in advance)

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... Thurbo-Two
(I just hard-carried that shit though my late day 2 was KINDA outing)


PS for the lulz
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... post876634

I've always said mhsmith0 is a terrible liar

that's phighter correctly metaing me as not wolf in a turbo f3 before correctly hammering aragakiayase (who IS a very good wolf)... also an aptly named game title

You can also laugh your ass off at my long game iso in my most recent long game as scum (64p, I got freaking curb-stomped... and then won anyway )
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... Mash-Mafia

[mhsmith0]

Incidentlaly, both of those turbo games linked are <500 posts (and basically no walls either). Well worth a skim IMO.

PS And now you'll be super paranoid of me any time I play at all half-assed, which I kinda do when things don't really jump out at me

[mhsmith0]

Also in MU standard turbos I'm 4-1 as scum partnered with ladies, 0-3 with the dudes
#LadiesMan



the other 2 wins fwiw

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... e-Will-LOL
I was tired and lazy and basically said "eh fuck it" and hard-bussed my partner almost right out of the gate, she BARELY survived d1, got copped N1, and then i didn't hit the cop until N3, and D4 was the lynch of the cop's N2 (quick d3 hammer of the "obvious wolf" ftw )

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... rands-seer
first ever standard turbo wolf win, and right after Phighter had mercilessly trash-talked my wolfing ability in pregame discussion. He was cop, we shot him N1, and we had a relatively easy sweep
FWIW that was one of those foundational wins for me, in that it WILDLY improved my confidence from "oh no oh no I'm scum I'm just gonna suck and lose AGAIN" to "I still really don't like a red PM but at least I'm not a total shell of a person"

[mhsmith0]

And now I kinda wanna see dead and scum chat...

[Darkshadow64540]

I'm interested in the dead chat myself

[mhsmith0]

Anyway, I'd say you played well, and I think on a LOT of boards you and Grey would have been playing well enough to win, very possibly in a sweep. So I'd say you have a lot to be proud of; very impressive newbscum debut, and I wish you all the luck going forward.

[mhsmith0]

On a different note...

Happy birthday Shannon! <3

Nice birthday present too

[mhsmith0]

Also if anyone has feedback on my ICing, good or bad, public or private, I'd be happy to hear it.

[shannon]

I started quoting these before I got to the end of the game, so now you're getting my know-we've-won comments

FWIW, want to see what ASP and Tuesday have to say, but my vote is on shannon in spirit rn. That last post kinda feels like "ok you win but I'm not gonna officially surrender" although I'm slightly worried that's just what I WANT to think here.

FWIW I would never surrender and I would never even hint at the possibility if I was scum.

I should have killed ASP right away, cast shade on KidAmn, killed you...

Yeah, pretty much. When I was jailed the first time, you should have killed either ASP or Smith.

I'll also admit, fwiw, that I felt a little gross about doing the "scum should concede" bit, but I really did think that it was a ridiculously hard path for scum to try and pull off, and I wanted whoever was the last scum to see the hard road in front of them and despair. Psychological warfare and manipulation: not just for scum anymore!

If it's in the rules, it's fair play.

he made his push one mechanical play too late, if he had gone off earlier we might have been able to push you over

possibly, although I will say that I'm generally a very hard mislynch. I think I'm in the ballpark of 10% of my town games ever having my mislynch in them.

I've been mislynched only twice, and both times when I was trying out a different play style. (It's exhausting always trying to look obv town as town, and even moreso when scum, so I was hoping to come to a middle point).

What's funny is that this was an unusually BAD game for me reads-wise, but I gambited and tried stuff and THAT was what worked (usually it's just my reads are solid lolol)

So I'd say both you and Grey deserve solid credit for going the game without being obvscum at all, which is hard for a LOT of people to do. Well done, even if it didn't work out!

I personally don't feel that way. Since I knew my own alignment, and had solidly town read you since D1, and town read Tuesday since D2, it had to be DS or Kidamn. DS jumping about and starting to push a scum read on you just confirmed it for me.

On a different note...

Happy birthday Shannon! <3

Nice birthday present too

YAY!!!!

[shannon]

This post proved to be quite the opposite of what happened - -

Shannon,
What in particular drove your ASP vote? Was it "well we just need a counterwagon" or was there something specific about him that made him a better vote than others (you talk about voting counts but even there it's not clear what in particular wrt vote counts makes you think him)? In your vote you talk about ASP and either me or Grey, and now you've shifted to Grey, but I don't really understand where you were coming from on ASP (other than "vote data" without further explanation) or where you're at for Grey (it sounds like mainly OMGUS at this point), and I'd like to know what's driving your reads in better detail.

Vote on ASP was as simple and as unfounded as it sounded, it was literally just the vote count. You're right,

I did say one of the three of you, and Grey's reaction is making me think it was him, hence I've moved votes.

Partly it's OMGUS with Grey, for sure. Partly it's because he doesn't seem to understand the very simple idea that I think Tuesday is town, and I don't want us to rush in to D2 like we did D1. If Grey is so sure that Tuesday is scum that he wants no other wagon, he should be looking for people to hammer her ASAP. But it doesn't seem like he's doing *that*, either.

FWIW it's a very, very rare game that I have reads that are both accurate and set in stone. I think my main contribute to any game is in being towny enough to be off the lynch list, so I'm 100% going to fight whatever Grey has now decided he wants to throw at me. (

For new people who don't realise, you can edit your Wiki to include all your games and the results thereof. Smith's is really detailed, mine is just a simple list, but it should give you an idea of what I mean here about not being lynched).

This time - I was on the lynch list for 3 days, and I maintained my accurate town reads the whole time

I am a little bit proud of myself for not going over to DS's way of thinking and voting Smith. I always, *always* get caught up in paranoia like that - I think it's partly because I always try to do WIFOMy stuff as scum, so I see it everywhere, even when it doesn't exist. That's why I kept posting things like 'do not get paranoid and vote Smith', because I needed to tell myself that message.

[mhsmith0]

I personally don't feel that way. Since I knew my own alignment, and had solidly town read you since D1, and town read Tuesday since D2, it had to be DS or Kidamn. DS jumping about and starting to push a scum read on you just confirmed it for me.

Yeah but fwiw that's basically POE solving, which is somewhat on the scum for not being able to crack the top town, but at the same time much different than someone being objectively obvscum on their own (which certainly does happen in games at times).
I think the game goes much differently if Tuesday gets mislynched, if grey doesn't overreach against me, or if scum manage to hit ASP n1.

Then again it also goes much differently if DS goes down d1, lolvariance I guess

[mhsmith0]

This time - I was on the lynch list for 3 days, and I maintained my accurate town reads the whole time

I am a little bit proud of myself for not going over to DS's way of thinking and voting Smith. I always, *always* get caught up in paranoia like that - I think it's partly because I always try to do WIFOMy stuff as scum, so I see it everywhere, even when it doesn't exist. That's why I kept posting things like 'do not get paranoid and vote Smith', because I needed to tell myself that message.

Nice work!

Fwiw, I'd note that, in the end, for the most part towns lose instead of scum winning (with some exceptions). This town didn't lose, even if things got spotty at times. "Not losing" is something that a LOT of towns struggle with, whether wagoning obvtown, making bad mechanical plays, having a bunch of lynchbait around, etc etc etc.

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw I was also a bit extra paanroid of Shannon because 4-0 as scum is a really solid record, so I kinda figured I just WOULDNT be able to tell if it was her. Quick meta skim didn't give me anything solid, didn't really want to do a bunch of work either lol

[shannon]

If it was me I wouldn't have been scummy-looking-enough to be jailed, I don't think

[shannon]

This time - I was on the lynch list for 3 days, and I maintained my accurate town reads the whole time

I am a little bit proud of myself for not going over to DS's way of thinking and voting Smith. I always, *always* get caught up in paranoia like that - I think it's partly because I always try to do WIFOMy stuff as scum, so I see it everywhere, even when it doesn't exist. That's why I kept posting things like 'do not get paranoid and vote Smith', because I needed to tell myself that message.

Nice work!

Fwiw, I'd note that, in the end, for the most part towns lose instead of scum winning (with some exceptions). This town didn't lose, even if things got spotty at times. "Not losing" is something that a LOT of towns struggle with, whether wagoning obvtown, making bad mechanical plays, having a bunch of lynchbait around, etc etc etc.

I think that's true. We were on the path to loss after D1, but you really turned it around with your mechanical push on Grey.

re: lynchbait - I'm surprised Tuesday's name didn't come up D3 or today, given what she did D1, and how she was almost lynched D2 until I stepped in. When I was defending her, I was thinking that if she was scum she'd slip up again, and if I was scum read for the defence, I would probably manage to talk my way out of it. But it was definitely risky.

[Drixx]

You guys have a penchant for knowing when I've gone to sleep and doing something crazy right then. Game is officially over.

[Darkshadow64540]

At least that won't happen again : )

[mhsmith0]

You guys have a penchant for knowing when I've gone to sleep and doing something crazy right then. Game is officially over.

Hooray!:D

[Drixx]

The last living member of the scum team has conceded defeat. All players aligned with the

TOWN

have won!

PT Links:

Scum: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=70428
Dead: viewtopic.php?f=90&t=70720

Thoughts:

Firstly I would just like to re-iterate my apology to you all as players for the troubles early in this game. Some unpleasant stuff out here in meatworld combined with this particular group of players didn't mix well. A lot of important things (like hammers) happened shortly after I went to sleep, and my schedule catching up from being sick meant I really WAS doing the bare minimum for awhile there of checking the game once a day. And while I did meet the

bare

minimum, that's not really the standard I set for myself, nor most of the other mods on site who you will play with. Expect better, because we always try to DO better.

I hope to see some of you in future games. I've gotten myself a permanent sidekick mod just in case RL ever throws me knuckleballs again, and in addition to modding on the newbie queue, I've got three themed games in development (a mini and two larges), so be on the look out for them. If anyone is

particularly

masochistic and wants to be notified when those games are imminent, feel free to say so or drop me a note so I can PM when that happens.


I have two opinions of how the game ended. The mod part of me says that you should always play to your win con and thus DS should have kept playing. The player side of me feels like that was a pretty sporting thing to do. It's tough mentally to play as last scum for a long time. The most recent completed game where I did that was in hydra for Steven Universe 2 and I was so mentally exhausted when it was over, I couldn't believe the toll. Before THAT, the previous time I had been alone as scum for a long period of time was early 2015 for the last 4 or 5 day/night phases of SMITE. That one was also a great relief when it was done. In any case, I would highly encourage all of you to always play till the end. You may surprise yourself and playing under that pressure will help your game (both town and scum, ironically) quite a lot.

I thought Shannon got overlooked. The idea of jailing her indefinitely was sound. She would end up eventually being mechanically cleared or else scum would have to concede. A mechanically cleared Shannon plus mhsmith0 in a LYLO would have caught DS every time. I am a little surprised nobody realized that the game was, at that point, mechanically broken in favor of town and the expected win rate for town was 100%. I mentioned a little bit of this in the dead thread. I'd be really interested to hear why you didn't want to go down that road.

-Grey- played an outstanding scum game, and may well have gotten away with getting a lynch out of his fake claim, if things had moved a little faster. It was a pretty well played gambit, imo.

mhsmith0 also played a particularly interesting game. There's a lot of risk in going after the game that way. Any mistake and it blows up, but it was really executed well.

All in all, this was a good game to learn a little bit of everything from. I hope that if nothing else, everyone had fun playing and watching. It was my great honor to host you for this game, and I hope the latter part was better than the earlier part.

[mhsmith0]

Subject: Newbie 1774 - Dead Thread

If the JK is smart, they won't jail anyone tonight.

Lack of a kill when nobody is jailed will prove NK shenanigans.

So... this is basically explicitly wrong. "Proving NK shenanigans" is not actually useful in this context. If there's no kill, and we subsequently lynch shannon (who was in the POE), then we prove there was NK shenanigans AND we get rid of a potential scum AND the jailkeeper gets to clear someone ELSE.

The alternative is that the game goes into indefinite nightless mode which is ALSO really good for town. Towns tend to crush nightless because the night kill is scum's most powerful weapon, for the sample reason that it lets them get rid of townies who are problems. When scum have to get rid of townie after townie after townie in the day game it tends to be very difficult (DS conceded basically because he realized he probably couldn't get rid of EITHER me or Tuesday, much less both, and he needed to get one jailed and the other mislynched to win), because at some point there will be people on the board who are mechanically or behaviorally cleared town and/or are just going to incredibly difficult to push or mislynch.

I was explicitly baiting a no kill in the event that it wasn't shannon or KD, specifically because I felt it was so incredibly protown to prevent night kills. The more lynches town gets, the more powerful town is, and the more chances scum have to get caught.

If DS shot ASP N2, then he had to live with a shannon clear (not ideal), but to win had to mislynch two out of {KD, Tuesday, me}, which is still hard but at least conceivable.

By not shooting ASP, DS needed to mislynch or jail EVERYONE out of {KD, shannon, Tuesday, me}. So instead of needing to get rid of 2/3 targets, he needed to get rid of 4/4. The latter is just way harder all of the time, to the point where he eventually realized this and surrendered.

[mhsmith0]

Also:

Subject: Newbie 1774 - Dead Thread

Grey is also, from what I can tell, an EXCELLENT scum player

Idk where you get that notion, but I'd rate myself as sporadically competent.

For this game, I just figured I'd go big or go home since there was a 50% chance I'd be able to swing the claim.

Grey seems to win a lot as scum. Didn't really base it on much more than that FWIW.

[Darkshadow64540]

You said you wanted to see the scum thread, was there anything of note in there?

[mhsmith0]

I thought greys advice was decent. Vaguely expected to see a bit more talk, nothing hugely jumped out at me tho I'd note that grey had the same pr read on Tuesday that I'd had lol