Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[Hawk]

Hey guys I'll post catchup in a little bit. I can't promise to be as good of a scum hunter as someone who can control dinosaurs but I'll do my best :p.

Pedit: I missed you too Aubrey

[Hawk]

99.5% sure Aubrey is town

but seriously give me a second there were a couple things I saw that pinged me.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Creature

It's kind of ironic that I'm telling OOO to vote while forgetting to vote for anyone myself.

VOTE: Frederick E Campbell

who seems to be lurking at the moment.

Sorry, I'm putting less attention into this game rn.

You wrote on your wiki that that's a scumtell for you.

VOTE: Creature

Oh hi SlySly

Huh?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... to_Read_Me

Read the last sentence of paragraph 3.

You could say that just as easily as scum.

UNVOTE: Creature
VOTE: Frederick

outoforder, Rels, doomfeathers.

Let's fuse together to powertown this game.

I'm not convinced you're town, and I haven't read Rels yet. I'll help discuss, but I reserve the right to vote whoever I please.

I wish you people not voting would vote. I don't care if your the type of person who doesn't like to vote until you feel reaaal good about someone before voting them. Put your vote on the scummiest person so far already.

I'll consider what you've said.

But honestly, I think Aubrey's 222 seems a little to eager to end this day.
VOTE: Aubrey

Let's try to work as town anyways.

Do you mean you're scum, and you're trying to work as though you're town?

Wow.

In this post from a scum thread, Fredrick states that he as scum usually picks someone at random to question. Does this questioning fit that method? Could this be sloppy town, or is it more likely lazy scum?

Yeah, to some extent. This is only Fredrick's fourth game, and he doesn't appear to post much.

VOTE: hapahauli

Not really scummy. More less not-scummy.

Hang on, I think I've got a case.

VOTE: Kop

His posting tone seems bored and rather uncaring, which clashes strongly with his activity and content. I think he's scum trying to look town.

[boop]

VOTE: Fredrick

because I think he's lazy scum.

Uggggghhhh so yeah I thought that's what I saw. Doom really pings me because while he's been fairly active and has had good posts here and there a lot of it is pretty easy to fake as scum.

Doom flips his vote a lot with little actual say from himself on why or where or how. Particularly I find his vote against FEC just recently bothersome. You vote him for low content then give him benefit of being a newbie and not posting much then vote him again cause he's lazy scum? Naaaah dog lots of other people also fall under the low activity scummy feel than just FEC. Not that you don't point it out just you chose to focus here. Feels like low hanging fruit. He could be scum, but idk. posts are rather sporadic and feel very awkward like his interaction with creature early in the day, his questioning of the unvote just to post hey you said why two posts later so I get where some of the question of FEC comes from but I don't see why Doom votes Hapa for being not town enough, then Kop for case based off tone and activity (both of which are NAI) and back to Fred where you were before because he's lazy (despite you saying before) that he was new and doesn't post much from what you've dug out.

[Hawk]

I am townreading him because of his posts on MooginSoosy (who i am also suspicious of for reasons i will outline soon). And because of WHY he townreads you, not just because he townreads you -- since i share the opinion of why you are town as i pointed earlier.

Basically - if you go read MooginSoosy's posts, she gave townreads on me, Rels and Creature.
When being prodded about the townreads she retracted from all of them except for the townread on me. I don't understand why he townread Rels and Creature in the first place, since there is no real explanation. Basically the read on Rels she has shouldn't have been a townread in the first place since almost everything Rels has posted is why she retracted from the read... I don't understand the read - or the change of read - on Creature at all. I don't see the thoguht process. I don't understand the read on me either since she literally said she has a townread on me for a post she doesn't know why i even posted that?!?!?!? I mean like, wtf does that even mean or how can she come to a such conclusion. And i certainly don't like her vote on doomfeathers since i heavily disagree with the case.

fitz' big post didn't change anything for me regarding the read on him. Still think he is likely to be mafia.

hapahauli needs to do more shit, right now he doesn't look good (basically playing way below his town!play level imo). While i am not certain he is mafia i was before, i definitely don't have a town read on him.

Fredrick E Campbell gets a scumlean for what i said before. I don't understand how someone can read the thread in that kinda manner. For me it looks like he is just taking some random things at a random time to cprod on them without actually thinking why people even do the stuff they do.

Basically this is where i stand:

town (in no specific order other than Rels):

Aubrey
Kop
KidAmn
doomfeathers
Creature

Rels

Useless / undecided on:

Allomancer*
hapahauli

Current scumreads (the lower - more scummy):

MooginSoosy / Fredrick E Campbell
havingfitz

Hey OoO you have a lot of posts that are very long so it's gonna take me some time to disect you but I saw your reads lIst, explain your town reads on doomy, Kop and Kid a bit for me so I can have a better idea where you are now while I review where you were eariler in the day?

[Hawk]

Hawk: "Okay, give me a moment because I got some pings that might solve the game"

What you expect:
Hawk: "Moogin, hapahauli and Fredrick are scum because *lots of reasons*, gg no re"
hapahauli: "Oh, but blah blah blah"
Hawk: "Sorry, there's no way any of you are town"
Moogin: "gg, we give up"

What actually is:
Hawk: "doomfeathers is scum because he flips his vote a lot"

Doom pinged me because of his sporadic voting and it seemed awkward I'm not denying that those three haven't been scummy I'm just going through ISO'a after skimming the thread. I find that fairly effective for me.

Also why did you expect that? I mean I'm gonna get to everyone today if I can just doom stuck me first.

[Hawk]

Doom flips his vote a lot with little actual say from himself on why or where or how. Particularly I find his vote against FEC just recently bothersome. You vote him for low content then give him benefit of being a newbie and not posting much then vote him again cause he's lazy scum? Naaaah dog lots of other people also fall under the low activity scummy feel than just FEC. Not that you don't point it out just you chose to focus here. Feels like low hanging fruit. He could be scum, but idk. posts are rather sporadic and feel very awkward like his interaction with creature early in the day, his questioning of the unvote just to post hey you said why two posts later so I get where some of the question of FEC comes from but I don't see why Doom votes Hapa for being not town enough, then Kop for case based off tone and activity (both of which are NAI) and back to Fred where you were before because he's lazy (despite you saying before) that he was new and doesn't post much from what you've dug out.

Yeah, I post sporadically. I'm not sure how that's scummy, though. It's just how I play games.

I voted Fredrick based on poor content, not low post rate. Also, "newbie" and "no idea how to play" are different.

Yes, I've been vote-hopping spectacularly. I haven't found any strong evidence of scumminess to vote for. Right now, I think havingfitz and Kop are probably most worthy of attention, but I can't find decent reasons to vote them.

It's not that you are nesscarily flipping a lot it's just you don't push out your own reads on why you're voting or at least don't articulate it very much. It just reads to me like scum trying to appear town. Like I see why you went after FEC but why flip to Hapa and Kop and then back to FEC? what does that accomplish? Like your case against FEC is fine I can't tell if he's lazy scum, sloppy town, or just not experienced but you jumping around jumped out to me as more odd than him being wet behind the ears or lazy.

Moogin pings me too by the way Doom what do you think about Moogin considering you're on FEC for being lazy scum.

[Hawk]

Moogin has not posted much, but her posts have made more sense, as if she's actually paying attention to what's going on.

Now that I think about it, though, if she's paying attention while lurking, that would be something scum might well do. I'll keep that in mind.

Moogin, Kop, and FEC ping me for similar reasons

Doom pinged me because he could be oppurtunistically looking here. Bothers me more he ignored Moogin for similar reasons to SR Kop or FEC.

VOTE: Moogin

You're not off my radar Doom -_-; But I want more from Moogin.

Kop feels off to me. His posts haven't been the most towny for me. The post about Aubry FWIW not burning him even if it's just RVS might be a slip indicating he knows that he and Aubrey are opposed. I don't really think so. The thing about buddying bothers me too because the post doesn't read like a jest at first glance but Kop explanation kinda makes sense?

[Hawk]

Basically - if you go read MooginSoosy's posts, she gave townreads on me, Rels and Creature.
When being prodded about the townreads she retracted from all of them except for the townread on me. I don't understand why he townread Rels and Creature in the first place, since there is no real explanation. Basically the read on Rels she has shouldn't have been a townread in the first place since almost everything Rels has posted is why she retracted from the read... I don't understand the read - or the change of read - on Creature at all. I don't see the thoguht process. I don't understand the read on me either since she literally said she has a townread on me for a post she doesn't know why i even posted that?!?!?!? I mean like, wtf does that even mean or how can she come to a such conclusion. And i certainly don't like her vote on doomfeathers since i heavily disagree with the case.

The first post I made after coming back was from skimming what had happened, then I went back and changed my mind. I should've read before posting but I didn't, my bad.

I think you're town but I hated that wall post because you just say the same thing in different ways for half of it and it wasn't concise. Also you just seemed like you were making this huge revelation but it wasn't actually that life changing.

Creature is a mystery to me because the posts are so short. I thought he was town before but I think I was swayed by his whole "oh we should form a townblock with us 4 (rels doom OoO creature)"

I think one of the people in that group is scum and right now the only one who I think is definitely town in that is you

Be more concise OoO, but not as concise as Creature cause I can't read that.

Please expand your reads. What about creatures posts are scrummy? Same with Rels and Doom if you please.

[Hawk]

Doom is suspicious to me because he jumps from vote to vote and doesn't try to pull any information out of them. He wants other people to see his votes and hopes they'll go after them. He's not hunting the people that he's voting for actively.

So essentially what I just said earlier color me not impressed. Like I agree but at the same time you're just regurgitating something I said before so how much of that opinion was your own I can't tell :/.

Creature is a bit similar, but I'm seeing that's just his play style. Creature is less of a scum read than doom. Creature just wants everyone to do his work for him, like how he wanted you to find the three people he thinks are scum and go after them.

I like this thought process but I was thinking Creature was doing more than just playing back and waiting for people to do their dirty work for him.

I don't like the fact that OoO waited to see rels' reaction. How easy it would be for a scum rels to buddy up with OoO right away just because they know each other from another game. I liked his interaction with creature but I think he backed off too easily. Then to suddenly agree to a townblock with creature, OoO and doom (though he was iffy on doom still). I think one of them is latching onto that group to fly under the radar

Who do you think is Latching because I'm getting confused by how you worded that?

[Hawk]

God OoO makes my word walls look concise.

OoO the only thing I saw for explanation on a townread on Kids was in your big long 118 and I didn't quite understand how you just pulled that out. Like if he was scum he'd know you're town? That assumes you're town which is fine to say but for me to take that argument at face value I have to know you're town or believe you are town which I am undecided and have no way of comfing you as town so please explain what about Kid you are town reading. As well unless I missed it in an ISO of you I don't see anything completely concrete as to why Doom and Kop are so high on your town list either.

Creature you interact with plenty that's fine. I also agree with Aubreyou Creatures attitude isn't probably AI for him. I'll have to dig into his Meta myself but I'll take Aubrey's word on it for now.

pEdit: What part of the reaction did you think was towny Aubrey that you're wondering about Scum Motive?

[Hawk]

Well to be fair Hawk is not right on what he says about MooginSoosy's vote on doomfeathers. Still i don't agree with the reasoning.

What was I not right about?

[Hawk]

VOTE: doomefeathers

I don't see their posts being helpful to town in any way. I dont see their votes being helpful in any way. Why bother putting your vote on fitz when they're going to be vla until Tuesday?? I still dislike their post about strategy in the night, it seems like a scum trying to be town and give the town this brilliant solution to the night phases

You mean this? This reads to me as my two problems are
1. Voting someone who is VLA is not productive to town.
2. I don't like that you're talking mechanics it seems scummy and/or Fake town.

Doom is suspicious to me because he jumps from vote to vote and doesn't try to pull any information out of them. He wants other people to see his votes and hopes they'll go after them. He's not hunting the people that he's voting for actively.

This when asked about her reads reads as her changing her read and regurgitating my point I just made. But sure I can see what you're getting at let me redact.

So all you have to add to your opinion of Doom is the same thing I just said. Color me not impressed it felt like an attempt at appeasing someone who put pressure on you.

@Moogin what do you think about Doom retracting his vote on Fitz because of the VLA admitting he must have been tired in 296 . Does him voting Fitz still weigh on your scumread of him?

Also any other thoughts besides what's been presented thus far?

Pedit: I can only imagine Aubrey lol what a reunion.

[Hawk]

Mod:

Replace me out. My mental state is in a mess... again.

All the best man. Hope things get better.

[Hawk]

I'm not usually convinced by Meta posts and reasonings mostly because I think Meta isn't Alignment indicative. But it might also be my inexperience on forum Mafia so I don't go digging super hard on past games.

Moogin are you gonna give your read on Rels especially since Rels came in with some very nice aggressive scumhunting here? Can you give a read on Hapa as well while your at it since you said you didn't understand why people thought Hapa was scummy?

Hapa's on VLA I guess still so I'll wait until he at least comes back before dropping a 3rd vote on his wagon.

[Hawk]

@Mod V/LA till Wednesday Sometime?

[Hawk]

@Mod V/LA till Wednesday Sometime?

Forgot to bold it the first time.

[Hawk]

My baby girl was just born! Will be back later maybe earlier than tomorrow just felt like sharing!!!

[Hawk]

You call Kop your second strongest read and then follow it with a list of reasons he might not be scum, one of which is his posting style with bigass walls of text catchup, while criticising me for having a weak scum-read on Creature but admitting that part of my issue could just be his posting style

Do you not see the contradiction there

KidDamn are you saying it's a contradiction because he gave case for both scum and town Kop or are you saying it's a contradiction because you think it's hypocritical line of thinking?

[Hawk]

@Doom what's your opinion on Kops catchup??

[Hawk]

Yet, again Aubrey + Kop + outoforder + Rels + doomfeathers + me isn't enough to solve the game.

Just curious why is doomfeathers consistently on your town list but other people seem to fall off and on again?

I understand Rels and OoO. I'm pretty Null on Aubrey but I'm leaning more town than scum.

[Hawk]

Would you mind if we lynched hapahauli right now?

Not my first choice. I like Hapa's case against KidDamn. I don't buy into the meta stuff so I guess right now he's sitting Null/Town.

I don't like the way Kid reacted to the case presented. It sounds frustrated but it lashes out at things that aren't alignment indicative and reads as OMGUS.

Hapa says Kid is scummy cause he presents a case for scum and town then votes anyway despite thinking creature could be town.

Kid retorts that Hapa is hypocritical and is doing the same thing.

2 things

1. town is capable of being hypocritical (lurk town versus lurk scum pointing out that lurking is scummy) it doesn't make a great case but I can see town being that way in this case a little bit.

2. I actually don't think Hapa was being hypocritical. Hapa makes actually case for Kop to be town or scum but he's not voting Kop he's voting Kid. And Hapa didn't really give reasoning as the why Kid is town which is what Kid did when he voted Creature. so not the same case.

[Hawk]

He's Open 658ing.

More meta stuff?? Okay BRB gotta go read another game to get a read on a player this game

Seriously is that the only reason? also if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying let me know.

[Hawk]

I'm pretty Null on Aubrey but I'm leaning more town than scum.

WAIT A MOMENT, AND SHUT THE FRONT DOOR.

what happened to that 99.5 percent sure my lovely booty is town good sir?

I DEMAND AN ANSWER.
I DEMAND SATISFACTION.
I DEMAND MORE LOVING THAN WHAT YOU ARE GIVING ME.



Or so lord hep me I'll go bat shit crazy on yo ass.

VOTE: Hawk

I assume you're referring to post 347 ? It was a joke about our last game where I said there was only a .5% chance you were scum right before we went into final 3. Thus the smilies afterwords. Especially since you changed your avatar and said you were buddying.

Should I be scumreading you? I'm not even really town reading you it's more a lean than anything. You're pressing where you feel like there is good pressure and while you're not giving mind blowing game solving reads you're at least engaged in discussion when something catches your eye. You could still be scum idk I probably won't get a good read on you till I see some people flip.

Cass I know you said it was a quick skim but can you explain those top 3 scum reads for me?

Idk where I'm sitting anymore but I actually quite liked Kops response to Doom and his case against him. I don't like that Kop isn't voting it takes a lot of the oomph out of his rebuttal :/. Kop what are you thinking? Who's scummy?

VOTE: Kop

[Hawk]

Uggghhhh fuck it.

I'm really losing interest in this game because I'm having a hard time not being drawn to my natural tendency to question low activity which in turn usually leads me to looking hypocritical. I told myself I'd try and be less emotional and gut based and try and find scum smartly this time not over activity based NAI Garbo but I'm slowly losing interest.

Kop is coasting and hasn't placed a vote outside of RVS. It feels really off to me especially with all his rebuttals being dismissive and not pushing towards scumhunting himself. This compounded with the fact that his one actual push back against Doom earlier didn't follow up with a vote anywhere really irks me.

KidDamn is in a similar boat for me he's coasting by along with weak cases based off twisted information and hypocrisy.

Creature bugs me because he's been really laid back and almost uninvolved in this game. I read his wiki and apparently this is pair for the course for him. Seems fine I guess if I didn't think meta can easily be manipulated honestly it's what scares me most of all about creature since his "meta" is so indifferent his ability to manipulate is going to be easy to fool. He retorted eariler that he can't fake his "expression". If I'm taking expression to mean reaction on the similar vein that reactions are instantaneous and quick. This is forum Mafia. Anything on an emotional level can be faked by scum if they take the time to do so. Creatures meta being so disinterested d1 makes it easy for him to manipulate and move past that d1 phase by faking his expressions.

Hapa hasn't wowed me with his rebuttals as of late mostly because it continues to be no one has reason to scumlean me and less following up and pressuring his scumreads aka KidDamn and idk who else because idk if he leaned anyone else besides fitz.

Rels and OoO are off playing Mafia on TL forums and responding with meta alignments and indications I wanna vomit at how much all of their case against Hapa initially was noise and I couldn't dig into it myself. (I won't reread previous games to a great length to try and disecting scum and townie behavior as it often can just be a waste of time and I don't really have enough IRL to reread 3+ games per player to dig into their meta, if I know you from a previous game I may already be predisposed by memory but I try and ignore that because human memory is a faulty thing)

Cassiele replaces into a slot with such low quality of play and lack of posts that honestly I want to forget FEC even said anything earlier. I actually took a second since Doom seemed so confident and linked a game of his about how his scum play is garbage and read it. I skimmed I saw he is 14 years old or claims to be and from a quick look has no idea how to play this game and is reeks of newbie so I won't try to evaluate any play of his when he's replacing out due to stress.

Aubrey against my better judgement looks differently from the last game I played with him but his scum game was very good and I heavily townread him early that game as well and I rearly don't want to have a repeat of falling into traps set before. Plus meta is NAI so fuck my head for having a hard time disconnecting last game from this game. Also in response to what Aubrey said about activity. Yeah town self imploded in Tit for Tat 664. One of the reasons I've been very laid back this game is because my play was super sloppy in that game and eventually it led to my mislynch but I'm starting to feel that same apathy I felt D1 and d2 of that game and can't sit back anymore.

Rant over.

I'll respond about more people when I can. I am at work and was trying to read and catch up but don't have time to fully flesh out my thoughts right now so I'll stop here.

[Hawk]

Okay I guess that's fine. I don't really like it but I guess that's fine. The only thing I like about creatures d1 play so far is the fact that he keeps laying out townreads makes him really easy to ISO so I think if we flip scum at some point and creatures alive it'll be easy confirm him one way or the other based off that.

ALSO I LEFT OFF DOOM! MY GUT SAYS SCUM, but idk why... Also I haven't had much sleep so forgive me if my posts are shit today guys. New baby and all. lol

Pedit: I guess easily is a strong word to use there. It may take more effort based off the person. I'm just saying it's easier in forum Mafia than IRL (were I play more) because you can take a step back from replying right away if you have too.

Ppedit: Damnit Doom. Ignoring my gut a bit here cause it's probably just hungry.

Creature looks scummy to me too but like I said I don't want to push him just because of activity and his reasons being easy to fake.

Theory talk can be scummy because a lot of Theory talk in games where there is good Balance D1 is WIFOM. It's why in Game Theory you have games with 0-sum.

PPPEdit: I will reread later. Tired. Have to Work. Be on later guys and gals.

[Hawk]

What's more likely here? That I went into this game screaming at my team to bus me? Or that there are quite a few mafia members suspicious of me for super sketchy reasons that don't make sense anymore.

It's very clear that Cassielle is mafia. How she's tunneling me is not confirmation bias. She's suspicious of me because it's the popular thing to do, and never had any interest in figuring out my alignment.

Is your only case against Cassielle that she is tunneling? Cause if so that's a pretty weak case, and basically just OMGUS....

Give me a read list because I haven't seen much from you besides blargh blargh OMGUS, I'm not Scum blargh blargh!

[Hawk]

Cass I see where you scum read Hapa can you ISO and point to the spots she's having problems with because I'm not seeing some of the things like subject dodging. Am I missing questions Hapa hasn't answered?

[Hawk]

Of course all these people can't be mafia. People like Doomfeathers and OoO are probalby town (for reasons I explained before). Creature as well. Fitz seems atleast to be thinking about his read on me, which makes me think I was wrong about him.

But

KidAmn

and

Cassielle

stick out as the mafia on my wagon.

Cassielle

is not considering new information in the thread. She read the thread once, decided I was mafia, and that was that. She has no interest in talking about her read on me, and every interest in repeatedly calling me mafia (to the point that she's calling Creature's vote on me a bus). This is a very strong sign of mafia - she's pushing an agenda and not an actual read. There's no way it's townie confirmation bias, since there's no evidence she actually read my filter other than some throw-away tone read.

KidAmn

is pushing me for reasons that have already been discredited. Again, not considering new information. Pushing an agenda. Etc. Refusal to parse new information goes beyond confirmation bias into a scummy agenda.

What about off your wagon. Who's scum off your wagon. (besides Kop who is still off all wagons!!)

What about this?

Lynching Frederick would be a huge cop out. He's a coinflip lynch and won't be around to defend himself. There are plenty of other people worth lynching and debating over him right now.

Plenty of other people worth debating was who? Fitz and KidDamn? You've given soft townreads to Fitz and Doom now do you're back on KidDamn and FEC's slot which you had said it was a cop out lynch? Cassiele's once through and the scum pick on you is difference enough to push as scum #1?

I get your frustrated but OMGUS cases don't paint you in the best light if you flip town well fuck. :/ Rels do you really think this could be TvT you know Hapa better than me or this possibly TvS?

[Hawk]

VOTE: Rels

This is not the vote I was expecting Kop... Why Rels??

You say between Hapa Doom and Rels. Why Rels over the other two? Give me some cases here.

[Hawk]

naked votes are never pro-town
theyre usually FROM town (which means scum can use towns poor behavior as a smokescreen there) but theyre bad town play (for that precise reason)

hawk: who is the scum lurking in your townreads?
not about who you distrust but who you cant understand why you trust them ftr

im not asking you to scumread them either, im trying to paint a picture in my head

Aubrey. I haven't even really dug into Aubrey but most of the time when I read Aubrey's posts I just get a feeling that it comes from town. I don't really dig into it super hard and except for earlier when he came in saying I had explaining to do I haven't really given Aubrey very much attention as far as this game goes.

Creature irks me somewhat too but I know why I can't trust my townread on him right now. And it's mostly because I'm very uncertain as if I'm dealing with town or scum creature. I've only read his little blurb on his wiki that says they're very similar. His playstyle already pings me.

I'm also a bit worried about your slot but it's more how FEC was playing earlier than you. I don't know weather FEC was Derptown or derpscum.

Everyone else I think I have a grasp on if they're a town read for me. Of course it's all subject to change and I might be totally wrong because I'm fairly gullible and can tunnel into confirm bias pretty quickly.

I'm trying to be more patient this game because when I push really hard I often find myself overwhelmed, posting large wall posts of analysis, and in general getting lost the longer the day goes on.

Right now Kop, Kid, Moogin and Rels are all pinging me as possible scum but not all together. And Rels is more associative than actually there.

Kop because his naked vote is very awkward for me and he in general hasn't felt very towny for me is kinda gut oriented. I went and looked at Tit for Tat the last game we played and he played really back and said little that game too but was town. So idk if it's meta or not it's only one game but I figured I'd look especially since you made me question my town reads and Aubrey was in that game.

Kid continues to not post much in the way of wow factor for me his responses have been very low on the scumhunt trail but I don't want to read deeply into his inactivity. I feel hypocritical putting Kop higher than Kid here on my priority list for scumminess.

Moogin ummm well hasn't posted like anything that i can remember and last time I checked I didn't like them either but that wagon was going no where when I was on it earlier in the day. The only one who's suspected Moogin I think besides me was creature and Doom? I'll double check that.

Rels pings me only because that last little bit of Hapa's wind down felt super awkward... like I believe Hapa was frustrated and tunneling. I can totally see that as a player. I can get like that. Whether or not Hapa can too idk. I don't know his Meta or if even follows a meta or what. But I legit thought he was getting frustrated and angry with constantly being scumread for what is perceived as little reason. So when Rels says stop OMGUSing and hunt and Hapa stops and like things kinda cool off it makes me pause... like... what was that... if Hapa is really town was that an attempt to pocket further? If Hapa is scum and I'm wrong does that make Rels scum? idk...

[Hawk]

VOTE: KidDamn I agree that we can always come back to Hapa if we have too because his lynch even if he is town is informative. But like creature and Cass have kinda pointed out day is winding down we need to pressure and get people talking. Apathy will kill this town. I've played games where apathy kills town.

[Hawk]

Like I said, I don't really give a damn about this game, it's more about the three amigos having a circlejerk and apparently someone else backing off means I don't get to have a case so fuck it, do whatever.

OMG the amount of times that this response has been the first lynch in games is ridiculous.

Kid come on give a case or if that one's falling through push your second scumread don't just resign to defeat. You're at like what L-4?

Who's been pinging you lately? Who's posts just haven't been up to scruff??

[Hawk]

I wonder if it's his avatar or if Hawk looks more ordinary.

Huh? I've used this Avatar all game??

[Hawk]

Looking through Hawk's games, I noticed that in Open 669, he voted Doom for quickly changing his vote and they were both town there. So, he should know that Doom does this as town and it's at worst null. I don't like that he uses the same reason to vote Doom yet again.

Meta NAI I thought it was scummy then and I think it's scummy now? That's like saying I flipped this coin it landed heads 3 times in a row when I flipped it with my right hand this time when I flip it with my right hand it will land heads. Correlation does not imply causation. Just because he was town before when he played like that doesn't mean he's town now. As similar just because when I read him that way before doesn't mean I'm wrong about it now.

How is it at worst Null? If someone recognizes a habit or meta of themselves and applies it to all there games it becomes NAI. Which is why it doesn't matter if he was town prior it was a different game. I have no idea if he's Town or Scum here, but I think moving sporadically can be scummy and this game I felt it wasn't organic movement but felt like movement for movements sake.

[Hawk]

UNVOTE:

I need to reread and reevaluate. I like BV's effort. Solid town vibes from that read list also Hella a whole lot better than Moogin was. Hapa scumread feels more genuinely thought out then the Meta stuff OoO and Rels were feeding early game.

[Hawk]

Yeah I think if Hapa flips town Rels and OoO feel like good counter points. OoO has done a much less spectacular job outside of that first section of the game. Which with a little bit of coordination and some use of TL meta could all be contrived info. Of the three Hapa looked the worse but was also the one being setup if he flips town.

I don't like that OoO comes back with such a misrep on Cass feels like it's rather odd and kinda LAMIST. Then distraction wagon of Fitz who hasn't been corner for concern since much earlier in the day.

I'm okay with Hapa lynch today, if he flips scum I'm looking at Rels if he flips town look at OoO.

If we don't lynch Hapa, Rels is my backup because I think those two will yield the greatest information gain.

KidDamn looks like lynch bait by Rels Hapa wagon.

VOTE: Rels

Pedit: Kop echos sentiments here but I'm still concerned he's pushing Rels more than Hapa... but if that's the case I can easily see Kop Hapa if it's not Rels Hapa or something along those lines.

Also Kops point that Rels could flip scum makes me feel much better about Kop since he doesn't need to push Rels here if he's scum with him and they could just force that Hapa lynch.

[Hawk]

@Hawk - how did you go from "Hap looks the worst of the three TL players and Rels is my backup," and saying that you are "okay with a Hap lynch, look at Rels if he's scum" to voting Rels? Then you say you are concerned that Kop is pushing Rels and that you could see Hap/Kop or Hap/Rels. Based on all of this, you should be voting Hap so I have no idea how you winded up with a Rels vote.

You distinctly left off a grand portion of my sentiments there including that I feel like of the three Hapa looks the worst but is also the one being pressured most and could be BEING SETUP either for a bus or a ML. Look at how OoO and Rels initially pressure and vote Hapa then Rels backs off from one reentering post by Hapa. At first during the day I dismissed almost that entire section of the read to being meta driven TL stuff but now that you pointed out more concisely that I can see a case for Hapa that isn't meta driven I'm worried that the Meta read from Rels and subsequent back off is either setting up Hapa as a Bus or as a ML.

Like Hapa's wagon has 0 resistance, (asside from me town reading his AtE earlier.) No one is actively saying we shouldnt vote Hapa except for Hapa. That is like giant red warning signals flashing for me and I think since Hapa isn't going anywhere and we can just lynch him tomorrow even if it doesn't go anywhere applying pressure and possibly lynching associatives can put town one step closer to finding all 3 scum.

I mean say we lynch Hapa today no question to Rels motivations for saying no wait stop or Kops motivations to voting Rels instead of Hapa or anything Cass is doing or anything else. If Hapa flips town now where are we. Pushing Rels cause he called Hapa town? Pushing Cass, Creature, KidDamn and Everyone else who said Hapa is scum? oh wait that's everyone (sans kinda Rels and maybe OoO?) Yeah I'm fairly certain Hapa will flip scum but I want more traction laid down by Rels and everyone else who has any motivations for not lynching Hapa. They have to be accountable whether he flips scum (likely) or flips town (unlikely).

Like this isn't us pushing a mislynch. We probably lynch Hapa today. But we have time. We still have what 2 days to talk? And OoO still hasn't really weighed back in besides a redux back onto Fitz which doesn't sit well with me either.

Pedit: I'll respond to Fitz in a minute. I'm just worried that Rels who seems to be the most active TL member who seems to TR Hapa and I want to know why.

[Hawk]

I wasn't going to read deeply into a case on Hapa early because OoO and Rels case on him was Meta based and I don't tend to think Meta is AI. But then you made a concise case that wasn't Meta driven so now it makes a bit more sense.

Rels backing off and so did OoO but others are still objectively scumreading Hapa. So is Rels back off Scum or town driven? We don't know.

You say there is resistance okay sure the people not voting Hapa are the ones who are resisting and we need to be on Hapa. Okay. Except when people do vote him the "resistance" don't vote him so if we can't pull votes onto him why not hunt the resistance? (Kop and Rels)

I would rather push the people who aren't voting Hapa why aren't you voting him than slap my vote on Hapa and whine and complain at others to get onto the wagon. Just me tho.

[Hawk]

I had a nice reply typed up then my phone fucked it all up by restarting itself for a update. So I will post this when I can get in front of a computer since I actually have a lot to say about this.

But to answer that last part BV yes I intend baring us finding some really good reasoning based of Rels response to lynch him. Move back to Hapa to end the day with that lynch.

[Hawk]

Meta is NAI for me so when people use Meta to create cases I'm usually very suspect of them. The case in particular from OoO and Rels against Hapa was even harder to decipher because I have no experience with any of them and I didn't want to go digging around another site to even get a gleam of another players meta. So I took that with a huge grain of salt. Early on Rels and OoO seemed townish to me. OoO moreso than Rels I guess but it doesn't really matter. So when Hapa responds and is subsequently no longer scumread by OoO or Rels I find it odd and make a mental note but don't pay attention to it. Rest of the day Hapa continues to be a large target by the entire player base so I cant really ignore him but I have a hard time separating the meta case and think you know there has to be a reason Hapa looks town to OoO and Rels right? can't just be meta. Some of what he's done is objectively scummy. His AtE feels like it could come from town to me especially since he's been under a laser microscope all game long.

So when you post a nicer more concise scumread on Hapa that is objectively found I think I can get behind the idea but that dismissal still sticks in my mind and I'm trying to sort it.

So here's where I'm at. I think Hapa is scum. Cass and others have voiced that Hapa can be lynched today. Sweet don't have to worry there I can flip onto Hapa when I need to to help push the lynch through.

So now my question is why is Rels still town reading Hapa or at least not voting them. And why did both Rels and OoO let go of their case on Hapa so readily. What's the motivation. I can see how Rels could be scummy or even scum associated with Hapa.

So heres some scenarios and normally d1 I hate making lots of assumptions but I feel a need to sort this today for some reason.

If OoO's push is town motivated.
1. If Rels is scum.
a. If Hapa is town then Rels is pushing and backing off feels super weird and I'm not sure if they thought they could push a mislynch and the authentically thought that Hapa's response was good enough or not.
b. Hapa is scum then Rels is bussing first to look town and backing off to reinforce incase scumteam can save Hapa.

2. If Rels is town.
a. Hapa is town then Rels back off is warranted and meta read is fine despite looking objectively scummy or null.
b. Hapa is scum and successfully fool'd Rels but not other people.

And those are just if OoO is town. If OoO is scum (unlikely) there's a large subsection of things but the simplest solutions say there is only 1-2 scum in that trio.

My gut won't let me get rid of Hapa's AtE and frustration at the KidDamn counterbalance. But my head says Hapa is scum and Rels may potentially be a partner.

Hopefully that answers your question BV now here's something for Rels.

@Rels you are not voting Hapa. Do you still think Hapa is town? If so why? Please provide some objective based reasons even if it's not many.

[Hawk]

I don't see why Rels thinking Hap is some God makes his relent on Hap any less or any more likely to come from scum!Rels if town!Hap.

Like if anything don't you think that If Rels is scum and Hap is town that Rels doesn't care how Hap pushes back and even if he pushes back in not so great way relenting buys him towncred. Like this.

Scum!Rels: Hap isn't playing well he's normally much better! Must be scum!
Town!Hap: "Response that is not entirely objectively towny or could be faked by scum"
Scum!Rels: Welcome to the Game Hap (unvote)

Everyone else goes wait Hap doesn't look town vote Hap. At which point Rels can eventually push back onto Hap. If Hap flips town he can be like see told you so guys. No reason to SR me.

I'd Hap is also scum then Rels can be like oops I guess he fooled me. (this I'd where I think it's unlikely)

So no I don't think it being one sided makes it more or less likely that Hap is scum. Hap might genuinely be fooled by Rels if he is town.

As well if you had a player that you thought had a very good town game and you rolled scum and he maybe just played poorly for a moment you don't think you'd set him up especially if the case is meta driven?

[Hawk]

Aubrey I can echo some of the sentiment on Hapa. I thought Hapa's AtE was good and now that you pointed it out I don't quite wrap my head around scum!Hapa's reasons for defending Kop but maybe associative if Hapa flips scum.

If we weren't lynching Hapa who would you be scumreading and why? Independent of associatives.

[Hawk]

@Hawk: as in the both of them being scum? I've addressed this already, why wouldn't he just push his scum buddy for the distance? Or just not say anything at all, and push elsewhere? Why outwardly defend his scum buddies slot? There is the option of them gambeling on people having the doubts I'm having, but I find that overthought and less likely. I see it as tvt or tvs. Less likely of SvS.

Hmmm okay yeah I guess I can see that. Was anyone pushing Kop at the time besides a few thoughts here and there that they could be scummy?

Also you didn't answer my question. Who besides Hapa do you find Objectively scummy?

What's the VC on Hapa I don't want to end the day just yet but want to know if I'm safe moving my vote for now. I really wanted Rels to come back and talk to us.

[Hawk]

You scumread Creature and you are scumreading hapa.

Your information must be pretty old. Cassielle hasn't been scumreading Creature for a while.

There is nothing in her filter between those posts. There is no "oh i changed my mind, i think this is the truth instead". Just a scumread on hapa + creature and then a vote on kidam while no reasoning why the read on the earlier two has changed.

Havingfitz is scum though. Deflecting a case on him based on nothing that was on the case != "here is why you are wrong". It is "i am discrediting you gor other atuff because i cant prove you are wrong".

Go read his wot and then compare it with what i said. Please.

Okay so are you scumreading Cass for that? Weigh in on Hapa for me? Do you think he's town?

OoO while you're at it weigh in on Creature for me. I've been looking over his ISO and I want some other opinions. I know Cass TR's him now but I have a hard time reading him.

[Hawk]

Okay I look forward to you putting forth some content tonight then.

Pedit: I want to take your word for it but I don't see why it would be hard as scum because as far as I know Creature apparently comes into his own more d2?

We will see I guess. But I'm gonna dig the ISO's a bit.

[Hawk]

I'm here ready to flip onto Hapa whenever. I just want Rels and OoO's catchup.

OoO we have less time than you think we only have a day and a few hours left right?

[Hawk]

Charge your phone post later we have more than 24 hours so we can wait a bit but I will push through Hapa lynch if you don't come back with something ridiculous cause I don't see Fitz lynch happening.

[Hawk]

uggggghhhh I've only skimmed what Ive missed from yesterday but I'll catch up here in a second. I think Hapa is still better than a no lynch but I'm feeling conflicted because BV is making good points about Aubrey, and to be honest it feels like everybody is just kinda blindly saying well Hapa looks scummy without giving their own reasons or pushing his commentary. I'll have to go back and look but I mostly remember counter cases to Hapa being "Your cointer case is weak, or your reasoning is scummy" not you are scummy because blah.

BV let me catch up.

[Hawk]

naked votes are never pro-town
theyre usually FROM town (which means scum can use towns poor behavior as a smokescreen there) but theyre bad town play (for that precise reason)

hawk: who is the scum lurking in your townreads?
not about who you distrust but who you cant understand why you trust them ftr

im not asking you to scumread them either, im trying to paint a picture in my head

Aubrey. I haven't even really dug into Aubrey but most of the time when I read Aubrey's posts I just get a feeling that it comes from town.

I don't really dig into it super hard and except for earlier when he came in saying I had explaining to do I haven't really given Aubrey very much attention as far as this game.

....

I want to vote Aubrey now but my hearts telling me I'm wrong... it took f3 last time for me to see you as scum Aubrey :/

Pedit: fuuuuucccckkk Aubrey don't play with my emotions.

[Hawk]

VOTE: Aubrey

I don't think town Aubrey gets frustrated there the way he does. He hasn't pushed the game forward at all just consigned that Rels and Hapa were the lynches of the day despite not 100% liking a Hapa lynch. Scum Aubrey is very cunning and I haven't played with him in a scum game where he's been scumread early so I don't know how genuine he can fake AtE, but I do know that in my last game WITH Aubrey as scum he took a backseat to me leading town and successfully had me and the rest of town town reading him for days before finally we hit f3 and there was no possible way for him to be town in my eyes and I had to scramble to figure out how to convince our backup role cop that he was scum and I wasnt.

[Hawk]

I've had 2 long shifts at work and I'm totally goosed. I don't think I have the energy to go through all the pages that I've missed because body is crying for sleep.

It's Hapa or Aubrey. BV makes a compelling case against Aubrey. Read there.

OoO, BV, and Rels all still kinda townread Hapa and are posturing around the lynch. Of not OoO refuses to vote Aubrey but doesn't seem with happy with Hapa's lynch either... which is a really weird place to be 10 hours before deadline...

[Hawk]

Are you fucking with me BV? I've been wary of Aubrey's slot all fucking day I even pointed earlier when Cass asked me earlier the one person I thought could be pocketing me was Aubrey. Just because I paraphrase the case against Aubrey and you don't buy my tone it makes me scummy and oppurtunistic? No what's oppurtunistic is someone like Creature saying he's willing to sheep any wagon he sees as fucking gaining traction. Get the fuck out of here with this noise. You were begging people to fucking jump on Aubrey's wagon throwing around the same things I just said in my follow up for my vote.

But fine whatever, I don't see you looking Creature or Fitz way when they're jumping on Aubrey with less reason than I but because I vote him after sharing I had no real reason to townread him and finally maybe see where I was being fooled you are like Hawk is scum??

[Hawk]

I don't know if Aubrey would flip scum or not! I don't know if anyone will flip scum until they actually do! You're taking my reservation about Aubrey's lynch today and using it to try and paint some scummy motivation behind my post. Do I think Aubrey could be scum yes, AM I positive that Aubrey is scum? No who the fuck can be so positive that people are going to flip one way or the other. The same could be said about you? You flipped onto Aubrey and said I am ridiculously confident that Aubrey will flip scum. Then because I echo your vote and follow up even with reservation I'm scum?

[Hawk]

No what's oppurtunistic is someone like Creature saying he's willing to sheep any wagon he sees as fucking gaining traction.

But you voted after Creature. Why didn't you call him out then?

Because we don't have fucking time for this shit! we are fucking 8 hours away from deadline. You're pushing Aubrey I was leaning Hapa still. Every single fucking second we waste throwing more conjecture around about players is time wasted. Did I think Creature's willingness to vote whatever wagon was scummy hell yes, do we have time to pursue a Creature wagon? I don't know, sometimes this thread explodes with people posting back and forth 10 billion posts with people other times it seems like half the cast is VLA. I'm not about to pursue Creature when we need to decide a lynch today.

[Hawk]

I was confident before because all of Aubrey's reactions to me hadn't sunk in at that point.

I didn't say anything about your reservations about an Aubrey lynch. I'm saying the reasoning you used "I can't see Aubrey get frustrated like this as town" is made-up reasoning. If anything town are more likely than scum to be frustrated. It looked like you cobbled together whatever you could at that moment to hop onto a lynch wagon.

OMG town tunnel comf!bias everybody.

I say I don't see Aubrey getting frustrated "like this" as town! Aubrey was frustrated by the gamestate and everyone waffling about. I'm referring to this post 1175 . This is not town this is scum.

He's all woe is me I'm getting lynched cause people are fuckwads.

You're fucking head up your ass town just like Aubrey said. You decide to waffle on Hapa and try so hard to find a lynch off wagon. Reserved that Hapa lynch isn't happening you're pressuring Aubrey to the point of insanity and then when his lynch hits L-2 and no one else is voting (specifically OoO isn't wowed by it) You go. no wait! What about Hawk. Hawk is sus because he is saying the same thing I've been fucking saying just from his PoV.

[Hawk]

I was confident before because all of Aubrey's reactions to me hadn't sunk in at that point.

I didn't say anything about your reservations about an Aubrey lynch. I'm saying the reasoning you used "I can't see Aubrey get frustrated like this as town" is made-up reasoning. If anything town are more likely than scum to be frustrated. It looked like you cobbled together whatever you could at that moment to hop onto a lynch wagon.

OMG town tunnel comf!bias everybody.

I say I don't see Aubrey getting frustrated "like this" as town! Aubrey was frustrated by the gamestate and everyone waffling about. I'm referring to this post 1175 . This is not town this is scum.

He's all woe is me I'm getting lynched cause people are fuckwads.

You're fucking head up your ass town just like Aubrey said. You decide to waffle on Hapa and try so hard to find a lynch off wagon. Reserved that Hapa lynch isn't happening you're pressuring Aubrey to the point of insanity and then when his lynch hits L-2 and no one else is voting (specifically OoO isn't wowed by it) You go. no wait! What about Hawk. Hawk is sus because he is saying the same thing I've been fucking saying just from his PoV.

There is literally 1 person and 1 vote on you. That is way over reacted

I'm talking about Aubrey not me there.

And yes I'm probably overreacting because this morning I woke up to us considering an Aubrey lynch over a Hapa lynch and after deliberating I went with my gut a bit here and am now being scumread for it -_-;;

[Hawk]

I will if you clean it up a bit rels. Just post the questions and use the post tag I will look at them when I get the chance.

[Hawk]

None of what you just said makes any logical sense. You call me head up my ass town but the behaviors you describe seem to be you trying to paint me as scum. On the one hand, you call Aubrey scum, then on the other you say I'm town just like Aubrey said.

Also, trying to paint it like "no one else is voting Aubrey" is wrong. If I hadn't unvoted, I'm pretty sure someone would have compromised onto him as a lynch. There weren't any other viable options.

You are simultaneously complaining that I pressured Aubrey "to the point of insanity" while also calling him scum. Literally nothing in that post is consistent.

*sigh* Give me like 30 minutes to an hour I'm still at work and posting mobile. Im sorry if you're inferring incorrectly about my post. I'm probably not making sense because I'm angry that people kept saying don't end the day a fucking day ago when everyone was kinda decided that Hapa would be the most informational lynch and now we are less than 8 hours away with no decided lynch.

[Hawk]

Okay I'm calm I'm better I'm here to respond to anything asked of me.

BV can I say this. I am extremely angry because I feel like whiplash hit me with the force of a thousand suns when you were like Hawk is scum because his vote is oppurtunistic.

I still believe Aubrey is scummy because of reasons you even listed. Sitting on the outside of these wagons commentating and pressing very lightly into the fray of things. He takes some awkward stances and for the most part of the day I'm not exactly sure why I townread him or if I even townread him at all he mostly sits on as null. His resistance to provide you reads earlier along with a lackluster read list and seemingly odd position and frustration on Hapa and Rels being the only potential lynch candidates bothers me a lot.

So when you come back swinging at me because suddenly some AtE from Aubrey sinks into you and you think my reasoning for voting him is oppurtunistic I got extremely frustrated and lashed out. I apologize. We should not waste time near the end of the day and either go back to Aubrey or look elsewhere (Kop, Hapa, Creature)

[Hawk]

You didn't have this response when I initially accused you though. Your reaction was basically wait, what? Creature and others jumped on more opportunistically than me! If you sincerely believed that Aubrey was scum, I'd expect your reaction would be more along the lines of "don't be dumb and hop off a scum wagon because you're paranoid" of something of that sort. You just assumed that Aubrey was town and there would be opportunistic votes on his wagon.

Forgive me if I got defensive and lashed out if near the end of the damn day literally 10 hours before the deadline when I'm already slightly uncertain who to lynch or whether they're even scum I flip my lid at the person calling me oppurtunistic.

[Hawk]

Right. That was your unfiltered, raw, in-the-moment reaction which is why I don't think you thought out properly how you would approach it as town.

This is Comf!bias.... like seriously you just twisted that as why I'm scummy. Rels even said it looked towny, and was more scummy as a fake reaction.

I'm sorry if you don't see it as town cause you're stuck in comf!bias like you were with Aubrey...

[Hawk]

Except I changed my mind on Aubrey. I think Rels has a decent chance of being your partner but I'm not sure of that.

Still awake Creature?

-_-;; BV you're an idiot. Not only are you stuck in confirmation bias but you're reaching. Why does Rels put his vote on me and go to sleep a few hours before end of day if he's my buddy.

[Hawk]

Good job BV you've successfully ensured that town gets nothing from.my town flip because youre stuck in confirmation bias.

[Hawk]

*sigh* I guess if this is where we are stuck.

VOTE: Kop

[Hawk]

If you look at how Hawk has approached this game, there's so much stuff that's weird inside information. I'll also tell you this: I was holding onto this piece of information until I could ascertain Fitz's alignment for certain - Fitz hates bussing in general. When he was willing to vote you but not Hawk, that's when it confirmed to me that they were partnered.

So when I flip green all these Preflip associatives of yours go where? -_-;;

[Hawk]

Why did it never cross your mind that I couldn't be scum acting super unmotivated at the end, fed up, not caring,

lynch me lynch me

yada yada act? You're not wrong. I'm town, and was fed up cause I didn't feel as if I could really defend myself nor get anyone to understanding where I was coming from mentally. It was never about me not getting my way that someone mentioned later on in the day. However, you with such a strong belief that I was scum...why didnt this go through you mind?

UNVOTE:

Probably the same reason he cant imagine that I'm town and got frustrated and lashed out cause his push on me is ridiculous.

[Hawk]

When I flip green Aubrey power lynch BV for me

[Hawk]

You seriously just let Aubrey's AtE get to you but not mine...

[Hawk]

Like you've literally ignored me for the past two hours.

Aubrey should have recognized my AtE but it was a no lynch so I don't fault him.

GL town. GG scum.

[Hawk]

Aubrey I replaced into this game when I saw you and Kop because I was hoping we could hunt scum together as actual teammates this time. It really sucks this is how it ends for me. <3 you.

[Hawk]

Fuck idk anymore uhhh

Creature, Rels, Kop?

[Hawk]

I feel like shit now.

Oh no... Bae it's okay. It was no lynch even I would have done the same even if I 99.5% townread you.

[Hawk]

Awww man I was hoping Fitz would make the comeback. Eh we kinda got screwed early game. I think I should have tried to Bus Hapa harder maybe if I had actually voted him at some point we could have had a better chance. It just sucks how D1 went down leading into d2.

[Hawk]

Gg everyone! For my first scum game I feel slightly accomplished I wasn't entire scumread for most of the day lol.

Also yeah go ahead and release the scum OF. sorry Tenshi I didn't know you were waiting on me

[Hawk]

Not really.. Also Momo I don't think you did much this game to be honest it was a pretty lost game even once you replaced in, I didn't distance from Hapa properly. Plus most of the scum thread is us not utilizing day talk and really kinda just trying to make it through d1 with all of us intact.