DoY I: British Monarchy Mafia (Mini 1896) - Game Over :O

[The Wood Cutters]

VOTE: Pine

Choppy Choppy

[The Wood Cutters]

and yes I'm getting a fucking avatar

[The Wood Cutters]

We are not amused, churlish woodcutter.

Her Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland Queen, Defender of the Faith, Empress of India consents to the convening of this session of Parliament, may you govern our realm well.

Be it what it would, I, among my brethren tip our hat seeing you be warm as a patriot. However, for aught I know, this is a masque performed by yee to blind one from one's sullied hands. Let it not be the case in court today and be merry on your way.

Spoiler:

I will ride your ass on this. This is fun but I'm not going to let you hide behind a post restriction. Do spoilers if you think a message wont be clear. No slacking off.

[The Wood Cutters]

ah, dreal. never change.
VOTE: The Wood Cutters
~Chara

Spoiler: My Reaction when you could obviously give a reason for switching votes in RVS but don't.

[The Wood Cutters]

why would i immediately give a reason when seeing what you come up with is more fun?
sharp scummers would figure it had something to do with drealmerz. ;>
~Chara

pedit: can you walk through your thought process there, Postie?
peditx2: we is a personal pronoun, he is a third-person pronoun! the two aren't comparable!

I do not see the benefit to make a reason for you, to just concur with, while you beat me with your hammer and tongs. Sir I do not regrettably inform you that you are in the House of the Commons, high class has looked up thee and has taken a pass.

Rid yourself of statements of heresy and proclaim, under god, why you so choose to condemn a peasant wood cutter.

[The Wood Cutters]

He's like a jester in the court, declaring a town read on drealz would fall a bit short.

[The Wood Cutters]

The comparison to the linked game so far seems a horrible one, both in game type and differences in posting. I personally don't plan on signing. I'll post more betterer when I'm home.

[The Wood Cutters]

ah, dreal. never change.
VOTE: The Wood Cutters
~Chara

Spoiler: My Reaction when you could obviously give a reason for switching votes in RVS but don't.

I don't like this

Spoiler:

[The Wood Cutters]

Fuck, mafblack.
This is gonna be hell.

[The Wood Cutters]

VOTE: ThinkMomo
Sowing seeds of confusion already.

Town.

[The Wood Cutters]

Scum are Chara, nancy, and ???, my guess would be Penguin.

Town.

[The Wood Cutters]

Pine
Prism
ThinkMomo
PenguinPower
Börk Börk
Drealmerz7
Infinity 324
Almost Chara
Empking
Wraith
Tea and Biscuits
Nancy

As much fun as it is to vote Pine.
VOTE: nancy.
Realistically, this is where we should be.

[The Wood Cutters]

(I mean I want to say fuck you to Pine and revote him and keep my vote on him just on a matter of policy if nothing else. But as much of a dirty rotten scumbag he is, he's not actually mafia.)

[The Wood Cutters]

So nancy is scum and the OMGUS confirms it.

Now we do the pointing and laughing for someone being caught so easy.

[The Wood Cutters]

Oh and nancy isn't using the buzzword OMGUS either, she's using the literally, original version of OMGUS and how it was intended; that in which is she is using the reason why someone scumreads their slot as the foundation for themselves to vote the accuser in return.

[The Wood Cutters]

Doing the opposite of calling nancy town mate. We got a vote on them and you should too.

[The Wood Cutters]

How much you wanna bet the last page is gin?

It'd be nice if you explained your reads though, gin

I'm P-sure 135, the post right before this one, does exactly what you ask.

Also, again, nancy says our reads suck and votes us for voting them. This is not hard to explain.

[The Wood Cutters]

It's not wrong when there is blatant reasoning given and you willfully ignore the post but whatever toots your horn

[The Wood Cutters]

When I genuinely feel like a vote was OMGUS, I say it was OMGUS coming from scum. Genuine OMGUS to me is a scum tell.

Spoiler:

Not much else to directly respond to. I get the sense that there is a clique of players here who all know each other pretty well, which usually means I get miss-lynched. My style always seems to come across as scummy when playing with people I haven't played with before.

That said:

UNVOTE: LicketyQuickety

Probably not scum based on what has occurred in the thread.

VOTE: XnadrojX

Best bet for today. Might just be annoying town, but he is using a lot of shitty scum logic.

Mostly away today hosting a D&D game, so I don't expect to be around again until late or tomorrow.

One does not simply say someone is using shitty logic and doesn't explain how.
Might I say, does not simply get voted by one player and vote the accuser.
Good posting would have been you explaining the err's in his ways.
Unforunately, you decided to do fuck all.
So, I am willing to lend my vote.

I put a little easter egg in there for you to munch on.

VOTE: Karnos

karnos,

Mafia Goon

, was lynched Day One.

The things I say have data and unbiased examples because my methodology works.

I could write you a sermon that is mastina length but I choose to hide away details because you engaging creates dialogue, which furthers reads.

I personally won't even try to engage in the read's list with mastina because there's no real way for me to explain her thoughts as I'm not her.

As for dreal, Nacho says dreal looks on par to what we were playing with in Camn's Revenge and I trust him enough to have a better read on that slot than I do because of my tendency to scum read him for riding my ass in Camn's Revenge (love you tho).

As for my own reads, I have people starting to sway left or right but they're not solid enough for me to declare as some people I don't think have even posted yet.

[The Wood Cutters]

I want to say 126 and 127 are mastina, but I feel like there should be question marks in a single post there if it were her..

Let's just say it is anyway.

VOTE: WoodCutters

Where's the doubt, choppie chop chop?

I do have to ask as I seriously think an issue will arise if I don't settle it now, but like, could you break down each sentence and your meaning behind it because my interpretation is that you voted because mastina didn't put a bloody question mark.

[The Wood Cutters]

For me, OMGUS usually happens in the RVS stage and you can tell when it's being playful.

In this situation, I read nancy's post saying mastina's reads sucks, verbatim:

Nope your reads suck.

and then goes on to say there should be a question mark in a post made by mastina as reason to vote our slot.

I want to say 126 and 127 are mastina, but I feel like there should be question marks in a single post there if it were her..

Let's just say it is anyway.

VOTE: WoodCutters

Where's the doubt, choppie chop chop?

If part of our reads means nancy is scum and then nancy says our reads are bad and then votes us right after stating that. I see OMGUS.

[The Wood Cutters]

Need I remind you she voted because mastina didn't but a fucking question mark.

A. QUESTION. MARK.

nancy, since you hardheartedly believe mastina puts a question mark in the beginning of her first few posts. Bring me the data to prove it.

[The Wood Cutters]

Need I remind you she voted because mastina didn't but a fucking question mark.

A. QUESTION. MARK.

nancy, since you hardheartedly believe mastina puts a question mark in the beginning of her first few posts. Bring me the data to prove it.

To add to that, show me, when mastina, as scum will not use a question mark as compared to town mastina where she uses them in the beginning.

I'd love to know how you have the data to support your thesis and how you come to the conclusion that the absence of a question mark is so damning and is worthy of a vote. I can't fucking wait.

[The Wood Cutters]

she voted because mastina didn't but a fucking question mark

As far as I can tell this is false

You're trying to associate the statements in nancy's post where to me they are separate. The reason for the vote was the last question I think (nancy thought mastin was judging too quickly and not doubting herself enough).

If that's the case, then that's why I have post 156, in order to clarify the issue before we continue.

By the way gin, how's RL stuff going?

Long/short: moved in with girlfriend and I pay rent till I leave for University where I have a dorm. Life is still overwhelming, like I'm limiting myself to 2 games max and one of them, this game, is a hydra so some of the work load is taken off of me if I need to focus RL more than pay attention here.

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm just waiting for nancy because it's apparent I'm a fucking idiot

[The Wood Cutters]

P.S. I feel it;s going to be impossible to fake anything and get it past The Wood Cutters. Between them 3 they have seen almost everything I'm capable of, so I'm going to come clean: We're just a mere VT

You wanna take a guess why I seriously hate this post, this part in particular?

[The Wood Cutters]

No one is Un-readable.

MEUAHAHAHA

You'll understand that and what it means one day.

[The Wood Cutters]

Which head says it, doesn't matter, we won't be signing the posts.

As for post 186, what assumptions have you made when you were writing it?

[The Wood Cutters]

It's almost like you know this slot is town so you're trying to butter up to us.

[The Wood Cutters]

Where's the doubt, choppie chop chop?

Doubt is for the hydra PT.

[The Wood Cutters]

How much you wanna bet the last page is gin?

I'd take you up on that bet!

[The Wood Cutters]

Ok so you're saying nancy is town cause she doesn't have doubt?

In a sense.

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm not going to blindly sheep you, no matter what your player names are.

We didn't ask you to!

...Yet.

[The Wood Cutters]

Let's say Nancy stopped existing, whom is next on your scum list, and why?

You know the funny thing about lists is that they tend to be in order!

[The Wood Cutters]

What's your opinion on Dreal, whom is hovering uselessly in the middle of your list?

Universal hydra consensus is overall tentative town.

[The Wood Cutters]

Don't feel afraid to engage me just because I'm a stranger. I want war dammit!

And lo, and behold, on the first day we did have a proclamation made that was of a nature most bold, for in this moment a claim was made, from an unknown entity did come forth and say, "War is the best, and to our enemies we shall bring death!" and yet in the corner did respond a group moving as one. They all spoke their minds in unison as they countered this opinion, for in their wisdom they held true: Their greatest enemy was within their chambers, and first to fall must not be the Majesty's outside foes, for those within would be far more a threat. "No. First we eliminate corruption, and then we will be without need for any one thing, for we shall have gained all in the world at hand."

[The Wood Cutters]

If mastin had a read on him, he probably wouldn't be in the middle

The middle's still town.

The first name not above null on the list is Empking.

[The Wood Cutters]

I don't know which head I'm talking to.

The beautiful thing is we can tell you who is posting without signing just as easily as we can keep you from knowing.

[The Wood Cutters]

I want mastina to talk to me (and I'd like to think that the vote was mastina saying she'd like to talk to me too, but I won't know until I get a response).

In a sense.
That vote was me thinking that--while you have admittedly said you were changing your playstyle--I think that this game isn't a product of a changed style, but rather, just you being scum.

Gin, however, wanted to talk to you and I figured I'd let him do so. We don't agree on everything, we certainly don't use the same reasoning, but by and large we tend to have already formed a dynamic where we'll not interfere with each other and largely avoid redundancy. Of course, that could change, but if our luck holds we'll keep it like this the whole game. (Which would be neat.) We tend to just naturally ~know~ what we need to say and what we don't need to say.

I don't need to engage you much because Gin took on that. Gin's engaging you on things different than what I would be, but the reasons aren't what matter; the push is the important part.

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm not going to blindly sheep you, no matter what your player names are.

We didn't ask you to!

...Yet.

138 seems like asking me to

Mate, if you think that was an example of us asking, you've got another thing coming.

[The Wood Cutters]

(apologies for annoying format, all you probably need to do here is search for your name and respond)

Woodcutters, can you sign your posts please? :L

-- Postie

As always, if you have a compelling reason to want me to sign my posts, then I will.
I think as a whole we're against signing for reasons that are equal parts logic and stubbornness.

I'm not gonna lie dreal I'm legit scumreading you already here

-- Postie

Why were you pushing Drealmer seriously here?

interesting, what is it based on then? (you're wrong, btw, but hey the way you came to the read so far gets you townpings)

Why did Postie's push look town to you?

Also If I post to much. It's because I play much shorter games. Said SuperJack.

Don't think that this should be a worry of yours; our hydra will likely be a top poster by far and while I won't spam to the extent that I normally will I'd still like each of us to feel free to post when we need to post. Having someone else with a high postcount will help me feel guilty; it will also erase any worries that I have of you hiding behind your hydra partner!

What kind of experience in playing mafia do you have?

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=70047

^dreal was scum for the first 75 pages of this before the game was rerolled. I felt like some of how he was playing here felt a bit like his play there. I haven't seen his town game before so it's nothing particularly solid, but it felt enough like scum-aggression that I was willing to go with it. And then 29 is terrible and the main reason I'm scumreading dreal now.

-- Postie

I don't think that him accusing you of scumreading him here as a way of overcompensating on him fooling you past is something that's deserving of a scumread; I'm with you when you say that it's probably completely wrong, but not sure where you get from wrong to scum.

scum-aggression

Wait no that's not quite what I meant. It's more the trollishness I guess idk something just feels a bit fake and wrong in the same way it did there.

-- Postie

I liked this clarification.
I disliked the comparison at first because the "scum-aggression" comment was pretty much completely off-base; I can understand the trollishness seeming a bit fake and a bit wrong, but that's typically drealmer's early game in a nutshell (regardless of alignment or circumstance).

if anyone TRs anyone before page 10, I'm going to vote them!

It's a shame that I saw this post on page 10

Trying to dismiss my read as me being fucking dumb enough to use "I townread you in another game where you were scum and I'm townreading you here so you must be scum here" as actual reasoning isn't even close to trying to understand my thought process.

-- Postie

Again, I don't disagree with you, but this seems pretty typical as far as drealmer goes.

I feel like I've seen this episode a hundred times

I completely understand this sentiment (and Postie, if you feel like I'm dismissing your read on him in any way whatsoever then let me know - I do seem to get sucked into defending drealmer early game pretty often because he has the magical power of getting himself lynched early game). I understand less why you just left it at this instead of trying to end it; guessing that laziness was the answer but shit even being more specific on what you were talking about or asking Postie to give him space would have been more productive than this.

I'm on board with a VOTE: Drealmerz

What really pinged me was his last post where he goes 'if x is scum... but if x is town...'
I feel like that wishy-washyness is a very easy way for scum to still be free to create an opinion on T&B in order to appease everyone. Like, if people end up scumreading him then drealmerz can sway that way and hop on, but if he's going to be universally townread then he can appease town by agreeing with that read instead. I feel like the phrasing of his statement is rather iffy in itself too.

Being that it's Page 4, I don't find that it's very likely that scum players would be worried about walking back on their opinions later; I do, however, find it pretty natural for a townie to be pretty unsure of the state of the game at this point. I don't like this post in general because it's an opportunistic vote on an easy wagon for reasons that are tenuous at best.

4 pages while I was asleep 0_0

I'm a miller

For reals?

Unvote
Vote: Dreal

- I have not been liking his posts.

This post is also bad.

Scum are Chara

I agree that it would helpful for Chara to answer why it voted Drealmer, but your case and confident declaration of Chara being scum is overplayed.

This is irrelevant to the game but as a side note I've been out of action for what feels like too long due to real life circumstances. It's good to be back and devoting my full energy again after having it first diverted then outright stolen by outside circumstances. There are a lot of familiar names here and I'm excited to play with all of you once again. I will hold nothing back.

I'm excited to be playing with you again too!
My only disappointment is that I didn't get to be scum this game so instead I'm hoping and praying that you got it in my place.

[The Wood Cutters]

I would have if you let me.

[The Wood Cutters]

And actually, going a little more in depth with the Prism case:

The ;> here is playful but completely negates any pressure they might have been trying to place. I question the intent behind even posting here.

Some people early game make playful posts; criticizing the post because of it had a smiley instead of making a post that was clearly intended not to give pressure instead seems like a pretty strong reach to me.

The followup here lacks any sort of clarification as to the intent behind the original vote. The "never change" accompanied by a vote swap implies a town read via meta, but it lacks any kind of teeth. When the original post immediately negates its own pressure, I doubt the usefulness of the 3 posts as adequate to get a grasp on "same old town drealm"

The initial vote on drealmer made it fairly obvious that there wasn't any teeth in the push in the first place; your assertion that the "never change" and a vote swap has to imply town read is not a great one.

Skeptical of this claim. As mentioned previously, the interaction here with drealmerz is odd and appears to be settling for very little. Your statement implying that you were trying to fish for reactions or speculation seems to contradict the statement that you left enough for us to extrapolate that it was something about him. Are you testing people's alignments or how perceptive they are? At worst, I think your vote change was scummy in the sense that you already full well know drealm is town, at best you're testing something that correlates very little with alignment with no clear reason for doing so.

The last post is why it would be useful to talk about Not Chara in that Not Chara's assertion that its vote on me has something to do with drealmerz seems pretty baseless on the face of things. Doing something that doesn't really have a strong town motivation isn't really a big deal when there's not a strong reason for scum to do it either. I don't understand why you automatically think that Drealmer is town from this interaction in a world where Not Chara is scum; would regard a bad attempt as scumhunting as just that and wouldn't use it to determine any alignment but the scumhunter's.

[The Wood Cutters]

Question, I've not played a closed setup before.
Is there any certain setup restrictions or pasterns or whatnot they follow?
Because from what Prism has said there is three scum?
And neutrals are possible?

The only restrictions theme games currently have (and they only exist because Aristophanes said that they would, they're qualified as "Bastard" mechanics which moderators have to warn players about before the game begins) are moderator lies and moderator influence. This means that if your role PM says that you're a doctor who succeeds 100% of the time, you're a doctor who succeeds 100% of the time, and Aristophanes randomized roles and didn't pick and choose who he wanted to play scum and who he wanted to play town.

As far as informal expectations go, this is Aristophanes's first game and there's nothing that stands out horribly much in the opening posts of the game, which means that we'll probably be looking at fairly standard roles (Miller fits in pretty okay with that), but we are almost certainly dealing with three scum here and it's doubtful we're looking at a third party/neutral unless it's a Serial Killer.

[The Wood Cutters]

Rereading nancy it wasn't as bad as I thought but post #100 in particular sticks out to me as a question unlikely to lead anywhere but coming more for the sake of it.

I agree that it's not likely to be a question that leads anywhere, but I'm not sure how nancy was supposed to approach that post if it bothered her; asking Postie to talk about it (even though she probably won't be able to provide anything interesting) seems like a way that's more likely to generate discussion than quoting it and calling it bad or not posting about it at all.

Simply talking gets you nowhere until it gains teeth.

Puffing yourself up to make your case scarier than it actually is also detracts from the validity of it.

Ok so you're saying nancy is scum cause she doesn't have doubt? Doubt on what?

EBWOP

I'm not going to blindly sheep you, no matter what your player names are.

Going to veer offtopic slightly for a small word of warning - I'm an aggressive player, I'm a loud player, and there will probably be some point down the road where I'll be begging you to sheep me on a player because I strongly feel they are town or scum. I don't do this because I expect people to bow down to my almighty reputation, I do it because I believe very strongly in what I say (or am faking like I am); I wouldn't play this game if I didn't take it entirely too seriously so please don't mistake passion for arrogance.

really facilitates any subsequent flip-flopping either way

But why is necessary to leave yourself room to flipflop on page 4? Do you not think it's reasonable to change a read that was originally given on page 4?

So, blah blah, first of all, you haven't yet engaged with my slot in a meaningful way. Your approach here is pure rhetoric. Second of all, you're pushing a narrative that holds only a semblance of truth. Your reads (including the one on me, yes, well selected) sucking have little to do with my vote. Your lack of hesitance in handing out town labels based on a scarcity of info is mainly what drew me away from drealmer. The only way you can argue to the contrary is by flat out calling me a liar from the get-go, which is.. uh.. well, not a position you have any ground to support yourself on, so that's not gonna end well for you. You scumbuds with dreal, bro?

I like this response for the most part.
I disagree in general that handing out town reads early is something that's scummy in any sense of the word; giving out reads early game is in general for the sake of transparency, at least when I do them. I tend to focus on getting things out there, pulling on threads as much as I can early even though I'm generally pretty aware that 90% of those reads won't matter dick five pages later, but generally putting that out there can generate responses that lead to the good stuff (and there is just as much merit in making people comfortable as there is as making them uncomfortable).

I don't know if this is coincidental or if Nacho took inspiration but I'm amused.

I made that comment before you were even born.
Why were you waiting for my entrance in order to read us? The Gin post you noted seemed like a good opportunity to pressure, get a read.

Okay, Almost is getting scummier by the second. I have some post flip analysis depending.

This is an absurdly early time to get plugging away on something like this, but I'd appreciate it if you posted it anyways - would help my read on you quite a bit if it looked genuine enough.

it's a a bad idea to lynch a VT claim on D1, and especially so when I claimed w/o any pressure. If I'm "anything but" a Tracker, a Watcher, a Neapolitan, a Role Cop, as well as many other roles can catch me in a lie.

There are plenty of ways to catch you out, but that doesn't make you a bad lynch if you look scummy (it's typically not worth it to out those roles you note in order to confirm you town and only a select few of the roles you can actually confirm you as town). Why did you claim VT, anyways (and if this is a question you'd rather answer later just don't forget about it). I find your original post on us to be pretty obviously disingenuous (maybe mastina knows a ton about you but I certainly don't and from the way you patted Gin on the head you clearly don't respect his ability to read us either), but don't know what you're looking for with that gambit as far as the "reading us" front goes.

Punctuation is indicative of a certain thought process, and at first glance I don't think it's particularly indicative of a town!mastina thought process.

Noting that a punctuation case is silly is not pedantic. The case itself, on the other hand, is the very picture of pedantry.

[The Wood Cutters]

Mainly waiting on Nacho to read Wood Cutters, which will likely peeve him slightly and I am a-OK with that. Surf's up.

So, right now, it seems like your initial approach was that you're Back With a Vengeance Part II and then from there you fizzled out completely shortly after. If your approach was the one that you described to Infinity (making something happen, killing people, etc), then why haven't you tried to read Nancy on anything other than the question that you're convinced had no intent behind it? Why didn't you engage with Gin when he made a post that was iffy? Why didn't you try to talk to the Almost head when they appeared? Do you have any interesting takes on anything or was your plan for today was to pick one fight and then feed on scraps for the rest of the game?

[The Wood Cutters]

And SuperJack loves readslists so here's one, just for him:

Infinity - I liked what he's picking up on (while he let Prism go too easily, I liked that he pressed it in the first place) and I liked him saying that he wasn't going to sheep us because of our big and scary reputations (seemed like there was genuine emotion behind him pushing back where if he's scum then I expect his approach to us to look different since believing us to be arrogant assholes would be more inclined to push him to manipulate the shit out of us and make us look silly instead of what happened there).

Tea and Biscuits - Postie's entrance is slightly town for me; I don't think her drealmer push is a push with merit (could be right, could be wrong, but the reasons she's pushing it for don't seem alignment indicative to me), but it seems odd to me for her to go all out ballistic trying to mislynch him from the opening when smart scum play is to wait for him to lynch himself.

Almost Chara - I didn't really love Chara's opening but I didn't hate it. I think Almost claiming VT instantly is probably more likely to be a town move (takes away a fakeclaim from scum for basically no reason) although I obviously don't believe that he's doing it because we're "oh so scary". Might be a stronger townread if I had any idea what he was doing at all.

ThinkMomo - I think that momo's push on Almost Chara for being a lying liar who lies looks pretty genuine. Nothing stood out other than that.

Pine - I'm fairly confident that mastin and Gin have 100% confident reads on him either way. Because I'm not an absolute crazy person, he's in null for me.

PenguinPower - The only reason I knew he posted was because Prism referenced the post he made. Null, find "sewing seeds of confusion" a ridiculous reason for voting but don't really care about a singular vote on a very early page.

Drealmerz - Seems pretty normal so far. I have slight concerns because he doesn't have anything resembling emotional engagement with the game so far, but that too is normal for him (look at me learning from his mistakes!) so I'm inclined to let him do his thing for now.

Bork Bork - Didn't like his vote on the drealmer wagon (didn't make sense). The way he pushed off questioning about it seemed almost too brazen to be coming from scum but that reasoning isn't strong in and of itself.

Prism - Have already gone in depth into this read enough, but the short version is that his Almost Chara case is nine parts fizzle and one part bite, his read on nancy seems lazy if I'm feeling charitable, and still underwhelmed and was expecting some more pizzazz after he made his opening posts about how hyped he was to be in the saddle again.

Empking - Vote on drealmer wagon is bleh, focus on Infinity's miller claim is additionally bleh.

Wraith - Gross posting all around.

[The Wood Cutters]

Main concern with Wraith is the general sense that he hasn't come close to caring about this game even a little bit, which is understandable for ~reasons~, but I'm not sure I would expect the apathy to start immediately when the game hasn't really gotten out of hand at all.

I feel like I've seen this episode a hundred times

This is something that could be happening because he feels apathetic in general, but I don't like how he didn't make even a cursory effort to engage Postie on her read when he's seen people making a similar mistake many times before. As scum, it's a very going through the motions type of post - he weighs in on the situation but there's nothing more than that.

Miller? In a Mini?

...Really?

And I don't really understand this reaction at all; how are millers in minis so much as vaguely strange, especially when you have experience with hated dayvigs and lyncher JOATs in a recent-ish theme we've played together?

Vote: Wraith

[The Wood Cutters]

I also thought that I included nancy in that readslist, but apparently didn't - she's just below Infinity on the townlist; I've liked her pushback against our slot in particular, but her engagement with pretty much all of the slots that posted things she didn't like seem fairly genuine to me. I'd like to talk to mastina about her a little bit since apparently there's history here, but I think Gin and I are at least on the same page with that read.

[The Wood Cutters]

I obviously don't believe that he's doing it because we're "oh so scary"

Why not? It definitely read that way to me.

I don't think you guys are arrogant, I just didn't like that gin wanted me to vote nancy and wasn't really explaining why.

If Almost genuinely believed that we would figure him out, then claiming early makes absolutely no sense (since we wouldn't let him get run up to claim, presumably). Neither Gin and I have the experience with him that justifies him going "oh you three are so scary" instead "oh mastina you're so scary".

[The Wood Cutters]

So Wraith, besides him being a miller, what don't you like about his play?

[The Wood Cutters]

Dunno. I've only vaguely been following along the past two days since I hate RVS, but planned to catch back up after we hit 10 pages.

And I don't mean to be an ass but we're long past RVS and we're past page 10 - why are you still caught up on the miller claim for pretty much no reason whatsoever?

[The Wood Cutters]

I don't think context matters much; it's a miller claim, and that's about it.

I don't think this conversation will bring us anywhere good until you catch up and have something to stand up behind, so please please do so as soon as possible.

[The Wood Cutters]

Regarding mastina and I, we got gut reads on Pine and they're usually instantaneous. Strong gut based off of experience really. Nacho doesn't have that experience, ergo null. Makes sense really.

I imagine a follow up would be, why aren't we pressing Pine if we think he's scum? It's because there is 1 post and nothing to actually press on with. For lack of a better term, there are more pressing matters at this time while we wait for content by Pine.
[line][/line]

@ThinkMomo, mainly ThinkBig, what's on your mind?

[The Wood Cutters]

I have this weird shaky feeling that Almost is town.

Btw for lolz, that was Nacho you just quoted >_>

Spoiler: Stream-Of-Consciousness Wall

* Pine has a one-post ISO
* T&B scumreading dreal right off the bat is ew. This is pretty typical dreal. One reason why I ignored the thread for the first couple days was because people were pushing so hard on easy target dreal
* Seriously using meta to justify a page 3 scumread? Uh
* And another (nancy) jumps on dreal for being dreal. This is an infuriating reality of every dreal game.
* I really don't like how T&B keeps digging a tunnel with a spoon
* Again I'm super-skeptical of Infinity's Miller claim. It was totally unprompted, but that means nothing when it comes to Miller claims - it could just as easily be scum trying to preemptively justify an investigation result as it could be town preemptively attempting to dispel uncertainty. But his flavor claim (Edward V) makes

absolutely

no sense IMO. Richard III would make

much

more sense for a Miller. Miller also seems like a very unusual pick for a Mini, unless it's only part of the role.
* Bork's entrance jumping immediately on the dreal wagon is super scummy
* Same with Empking
* I like Prism's entrance into the game though
* While I'm skeptical of Infinity's Miller claim I approve of his posting so far
* WoodCutters seriously needs to sign their bloody posts EDIT: And they refuse to which is fucking annoying
* I have to agree with WC that nancy's literal OMGUS is awful
* I think T&B's #145 is awful. I don't think I'm the first to point this out
* Bork's #147 um...
* I hate AC's entrance into the game too. Of the other two I mentioned earlier, Bork is still really scummy to me but Empking got better
* ARGH SPAM WC STAHP
* ARGH BADLY-FORMATTED WALLS DREAL STAHP
* AC and nancy both lash out at a different player for "butting in" while they are having a conversation with someone else. They both use it as an easy excuse to not answer the player who "butt in"
* @WC: There were two reasons I just ignored the drealmerz drama after that comment - yeah, laziness was one, and the second was something you mentioned: it's really easy to get sucked into defending drealmerz for a long period that doesn't do much good, especially since committing to defending a particular player hardcore this early could be self-defeating
* OH GOD THE SPAM PLS NO The worst thing about WC's spam is that I feel obligated to actually read it because their heads actually say things of import
* AC's WIFOM-heavy #275 is terrible. Most egregious is their insistence that Tracker or Neapolitan would catch them if they were fakeclaiming - AC could easily just be a Goon.

Right now I could go for Bork, Nancy, AC, or T&B about in that order.

Since this already has some footing:

VOTE: nancy

LOL

Hello there Large 200, how ya doing?

I am failure.

Why does Firefox browser look like chromes browser ;~;

[The Wood Cutters]

In case you forget how to do those wall posts like you did there, here's your ISO for a refresher
viewtopic.php?t=69849&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

[The Wood Cutters]

I don't see why a real claim wild make more flavor sense than a fakeclaim. But I don't really know the flavor

Also, Edward V is supposed to be a miller cause he was never crowned officially.

I checked the history on it and I honestly believe it.

I don't see Infinity pulling gambits and I also don't see Infinity claiming Miller, and if it was a fake claim, being able to come up with a king that fit so well with describing a miller-esqe description. All the while you don't forget that claiming flavor leads to the possibility of being counterclaimed or disproven.

So, Infinity checks out.

[The Wood Cutters]

Spoiler: Stream-Of-Consciousness Wall

* Pine has a one-post ISO
* T&B scumreading dreal right off the bat is ew. This is pretty typical dreal. One reason why I ignored the thread for the first couple days was because people were pushing so hard on easy target dreal
* Seriously using meta to justify a page 3 scumread? Uh
* And another (nancy) jumps on dreal for being dreal. This is an infuriating reality of every dreal game.
* I really don't like how T&B keeps digging a tunnel with a spoon
* Again I'm super-skeptical of Infinity's Miller claim. It was totally unprompted, but that means nothing when it comes to Miller claims - it could just as easily be scum trying to preemptively justify an investigation result as it could be town preemptively attempting to dispel uncertainty. But his flavor claim (Edward V) makes

absolutely

no sense IMO. Richard III would make

much

more sense for a Miller. Miller also seems like a very unusual pick for a Mini, unless it's only part of the role.
* Bork's entrance jumping immediately on the dreal wagon is super scummy
* Same with Empking
* I like Prism's entrance into the game though
* While I'm skeptical of Infinity's Miller claim I approve of his posting so far
* WoodCutters seriously needs to sign their bloody posts EDIT: And they refuse to which is fucking annoying
* I have to agree with WC that nancy's literal OMGUS is awful
* I think T&B's #145 is awful. I don't think I'm the first to point this out
* Bork's #147 um...
* I hate AC's entrance into the game too. Of the other two I mentioned earlier, Bork is still really scummy to me but Empking got better
* ARGH SPAM WC STAHP
* ARGH BADLY-FORMATTED WALLS DREAL STAHP
* AC and nancy both lash out at a different player for "butting in" while they are having a conversation with someone else. They both use it as an easy excuse to not answer the player who "butt in"
* @WC: There were two reasons I just ignored the drealmerz drama after that comment - yeah, laziness was one, and the second was something you mentioned: it's really easy to get sucked into defending drealmerz for a long period that doesn't do much good, especially since committing to defending a particular player hardcore this early could be self-defeating
* OH GOD THE SPAM PLS NO The worst thing about WC's spam is that I feel obligated to actually read it because their heads actually say things of import
* AC's WIFOM-heavy #275 is terrible. Most egregious is their insistence that Tracker or Neapolitan would catch them if they were fakeclaiming - AC could easily just be a Goon.

Right now I could go for Bork, Nancy, AC, or T&B about in that order.

Since this already has some footing:

VOTE: nancy

Piggybacking off of what Infinity just said, why is it you vote nancy instead of AC?

If your first choice is Bork, yet you vote nancy, showing you don't care about the actual order of who you want dead, why go for nancy if she has like 1 or 2? votes and AC is at L-3, putting them at L-2?

[The Wood Cutters]

If I'm honest, it has that aftertaste of it being a gambit and I don't see it being a scum!gambit, moreso a mastina!gambit that would come from town her. You say that ya'll are close or something so I can see the parallel to say it was a town!gambit, so town!Almost.

[The Wood Cutters]

Hey ThinkBig, you could always post.

[The Wood Cutters]

I don't see why a real claim wild make more flavor sense than a fakeclaim. But I don't really know the flavor

I might be misunderstanding your confusion here, but I think that the flavor matches up with the role pretty solidly and that's an expectation that I have with most if not all roles in the game. As a result, either you or someone on your scumteam is a history buff and thought it would be cool if your character was a miller (possible, but doubtful), Aristophanes gave you a miller claim (also doubtful - miller fakeclaims are fakeclaims that typically have to be made immediately to be accepted and mods typically don't shoehorn their scumteams into playing a certain way), or you're just town. I find the last possibility more likely than the other two.

I take issue with the first, non-underlined part because the certainty is too strong, as for the underlined part, what makes you so doubtful about that, TWC? why no jester in the british court? why no neutral survivor who just wants all the killing to stop? what sense does a serial killer make in this flavor setup, do we have Jack the Ripper walking around among us do you think? please help me see your thoughts that allowed you to come up with this statement

I don't think there's a third party other than a SK because Aristophanes is running his first closed setup and strikes me as the type of person who would be worried more about making a balanced not wacky game than he would be about adding in a wacky neutral role. It's a judgment call based on who I think Aristophanes is based on my experiences with him; I feel pretty good about the assertion, sure, but the foundation for thinking so is admittedly shaky as all hell.

and then I compare what I feel like you've done so far to this point vs. what prism has done so far to this point, and I like what they've done a lot more than what you have (though I'm liking your more activity this morning simply because it is more activity and that is necessary to read you - what we were getting yesterday after game-start was weaksauce)

do you think what prism has done is scummy? or just weak?

My entry this morning was the first time that I've seriously posted in this game - in that time, I commented on all major events of the game and most minor games and was able to flesh out reads on the majority of players (people who I didn't develop reads on didn't do anything to read them on). I don't think it's fair to say that Prism's done more than I have, and that's not even taking mastina/Gin's posting into account - you liking Prism's posts more than liking mine is an opinion that I disagree with, but I've talked about Prism already so I'm not sure what more can be said about that point that's productive.

You're right that I'm harsher on Prism than I am on other people - Prism has one of the best scum games that I've ever seen and also dislikes sticking his neck out, so as long as I'm alive, I'm going to make the job for a hypothetical Prism!scum as difficult as possible. I do think that what he's posted so far is legitimately scummy; making a strong entrance and leaving a good impression early and then completely fading away is an excellent strategy for scum in general and it goes against the "I'M BACK" vibe that he gave early.

I'm moving to mobile shortly; sorry in advance for the formatting because I don't have the patience to consolidate quote walls into one post like I do on a laptop.

[The Wood Cutters]

can you elaborate what you mean by this? I started to address it and then realized I could be accused of making assumptions and so I'd like you to expand on it first

You tend to get pushed on pretty frequently in games. If I'm scum trying to mislynch you, it's doubtful I lead the charge and more likely I capitalize on momentum formed on you down the road.

[The Wood Cutters]

You didn't love it, you didn't hate it, wow, can you be more non-commital before then going on to make a case that they're probably town as weakly as you can?

In your response to this, you've noted the scum motivation for holding a read that isn't confident, but you haven't shown why that's an unreasonable approach to take. My discussion about Chara's opening was an allusion to the Prism case (worthy of questioning, not worthy of case + blitz), and I have a tentative read on Almost's approach to us but "I claimed VT because you guys can read me" is a pretty unusual move in general so I think having a tentative read there is pretty understandable.

[The Wood Cutters]

Yo postie, I'm at a loss.

You say Wraith is scummy for his push on Infinity.

Then you say it's distancing meaning they're scumbuds.

So that means you think Infinity is scum lying meaning you would also agree with Wraith saying Infinity is lying.

That doesn't add up mate.

[The Wood Cutters]

That's not my argument.

[The Wood Cutters]

In order for you to think Wraith's push to be scummy, you have to believe in the miller claim. If you believe in the miller claim, that means Infinity is town. You then go to say lynch Infinity because Wraith is scum. That doesn't follow through logically.

[The Wood Cutters]

So you don't believe the miller claim?

[The Wood Cutters]

Holy shit, it does not take that long to type a yes or no to answer a question.

[The Wood Cutters]

Okay, it's A or B. What do you believe.

Do you believe Infinities claim.

[The Wood Cutters]

Okay, it's A or B. What do you believe.

Do you believe Infinities claim.

Okay I'll give you that one, this post was redundant.

[The Wood Cutters]

Now, since you think B is more likely and Infinity is lying about his claim. What is it you don't believe about it and what about Infinity's play makes you think he is scum?

Exclude Wraith for what makes you think Infinity is scum.

[The Wood Cutters]

What I agree with is your Wraith accusations, what I'm having a hard time following is connecting Infinity too it so I'm focusing on Infinity for the most part now.

[The Wood Cutters]

0.o

[The Wood Cutters]

How is it logical to say you don't find someone scummy but will vote them?

[The Wood Cutters]

How strange it is that T&B is shifting to attacking me immediately after I shifted against him, but his avenue of attack completely ignores my most recent posts where I changed my view on Infinity.

What?

[The Wood Cutters]

So it's a scum read that you can't explain. That's helpful to know.

You do need to explain why Wraith is a town lean tho.

[The Wood Cutters]

I get that you say that you can explain but in the effort to explain that you couldn't explained, you could have at least tried to explain.

[The Wood Cutters]

I guess I'm seeing it as you just making a post to post. If you can't say anything of value at the time then save it for when you can clearly lay out all your concerns.

[The Wood Cutters]

VOTE: Prism

Enough of the bullshit. You say it's vague and you'll explain and you've gone on to explain everyone elses shit.

You have bloody time so fucking spill it.

[The Wood Cutters]

Nah, I honestly dont care. You're annoying me at this point.

[The Wood Cutters]

Oh I'm sorry you forgot you mentioned how we were scum but you couldn't say why.

You're keeping it vague because you know, if you're scum, that we will literally tear your shit apart and expose you.

It's not hard to see that you're dodging it because you fucked up saying we looked scummy.

[The Wood Cutters]

Keep deflecting. You're doing great sweetie.

[The Wood Cutters]

You shell out a scum read, refuse to expand on it, I'm saying you're faking it.

You refuse to even say the smallest thing as to what ticked you off in the first place.

[The Wood Cutters]

I want to know Prism's thoughts now. Not later on. I want the raw emotion or thoughts that come out on what Prism thinks of us. What makes the scum read form and what doesn't.

[The Wood Cutters]

I want that knee jerk reaction. It's really hard to fake spitfire arguments and keep yourself unexposed as scum.

[The Wood Cutters]

Now that you're talking to me and about me, go to page 11 and the other random posts.

You don't even have to say anything, just give me the quotes on which ones hit you.

[The Wood Cutters]

*squeals like a little school girl*

[The Wood Cutters]

So basically, what your reaction tells me is that what you find scummy by us is how the trio interacts, and individually what each of the heads are saying. Also Nacho's push bothers you. I fully expect to see you bring up each point.

Also, it's not actually bullshit by saying I want the kneejerk raw shit because what I want is the reasoning to what set you off as soon as possible. When someone asked me about why I thought OMGUS was scummy I was immediately able to tell them that it was because XYZ, this game blah blah. There was reasoning I held onto before that statement.

That's what I want. The more time you delay, then those thoughts dissipate, and if they were never there to begin with, it's just biding time till you think of something.

As for your postie thing, I'm reviewing the ISO and checking the chronology myself.

[The Wood Cutters]

Spoiler: Wall of Quotes

The ;> here is playful but completely negates any pressure they might have been trying to place. I question the intent behind even posting here.

Some people early game make playful posts; criticizing the post because of it had a smiley instead of making a post that was clearly intended not to give pressure instead seems like a pretty strong reach to me.

The followup here lacks any sort of clarification as to the intent behind the original vote. The "never change" accompanied by a vote swap implies a town read via meta, but it lacks any kind of teeth. When the original post immediately negates its own pressure, I doubt the usefulness of the 3 posts as adequate to get a grasp on "same old town drealm"

The initial vote on drealmer made it fairly obvious that there wasn't any teeth in the push in the first place; your assertion that the "never change" and a vote swap has to imply town read is not a great one.

So, blah blah, first of all, you haven't yet engaged with my slot in a meaningful way. Your approach here is pure rhetoric. Second of all, you're pushing a narrative that holds only a semblance of truth. Your reads (including the one on me, yes, well selected) sucking have little to do with my vote. Your lack of hesitance in handing out town labels based on a scarcity of info is mainly what drew me away from drealmer. The only way you can argue to the contrary is by flat out calling me a liar from the get-go, which is.. uh.. well, not a position you have any ground to support yourself on, so that's not gonna end well for you. You scumbuds with dreal, bro?

I like this response for the most part.
I disagree in general that handing out town reads early is something that's scummy in any sense of the word; giving out reads early game is in general for the sake of transparency, at least when I do them. I tend to focus on getting things out there, pulling on threads as much as I can early even though I'm generally pretty aware that 90% of those reads won't matter dick five pages later, but generally putting that out there can generate responses that lead to the good stuff (and there is just as much merit in making people comfortable as there is as making them uncomfortable).

Okay, Almost is getting scummier by the second. I have some post flip analysis depending.

This is an absurdly early time to get plugging away on something like this, but I'd appreciate it if you posted it anyways - would help my read on you quite a bit if it looked genuine enough.

it's a a bad idea to lynch a VT claim on D1, and especially so when I claimed w/o any pressure. If I'm "anything but" a Tracker, a Watcher, a Neapolitan, a Role Cop, as well as many other roles can catch me in a lie.

There are plenty of ways to catch you out, but that doesn't make you a bad lynch if you look scummy (it's typically not worth it to out those roles you note in order to confirm you town and only a select few of the roles you can actually confirm you as town). Why did you claim VT, anyways (and if this is a question you'd rather answer later just don't forget about it). I find your original post on us to be pretty obviously disingenuous (maybe mastina knows a ton about you but I certainly don't and from the way you patted Gin on the head you clearly don't respect his ability to read us either), but don't know what you're looking for with that gambit as far as the "reading us" front goes.

I feel like I've seen this episode a hundred times

This is something that could be happening because he feels apathetic in general, but I don't like how he didn't make even a cursory effort to engage Postie on her read when he's seen people making a similar mistake many times before. As scum, it's a very going through the motions type of post - he weighs in on the situation but there's nothing more than that.

I also thought that I included nancy in that readslist, but apparently didn't - she's just below Infinity on the townlist; I've liked her pushback against our slot in particular, but her engagement with pretty much all of the slots that posted things she didn't like seem fairly genuine to me. I'd like to talk to mastina about her a little bit since apparently there's history here, but I think Gin and I are at least on the same page with that read.

Thank you very much

[The Wood Cutters]

Simple:

If you have a concern but can't flesh it out, don't bring it up.

If you have a concern and bring it up, then I expect you to expose your reasoning.

You did the opposite of the first sentence and didn't do the 2nd sentence.

SO, when you brought up the fact that you had reason to scum read us. I wanted to know what the fuck was going on inside your head.

[The Wood Cutters]

Also call me jealous that you focused so much attention on T&B and I interrupted.

I will admit part of that was my ego.

[The Wood Cutters]

hey dreal, almost wanted to talk to you. You should go see what he said

[The Wood Cutters]

Hey Shepard, you town?

[The Wood Cutters]

Hey sheppy poo, can you go more into detail about 483

[The Wood Cutters]

Why would you have to think about future scumreads?

VOTE: Tea and Biscuits

What I meant was I haven't thought ahead in terms of what changes for me if Wraith flips scum.

-- Postie

You mean if Wraith flips town?

So Wraith is town Postie is scum.

Spoiler: Could it be?

[The Wood Cutters]

Furthermore, why were posts such as

4 pages while I was asleep 0_0

I'm a miller

Miller? In a Mini?

...Really?

King Edward V*

rofl are you serious?

One of the Princes in the Tower? A Miller?

I just don't buy it.

not accompanied by a vote on Infinity?

VOTE: Wraith

It feels like you're trying to find something to nitpick for the sake of it, allowing you to criticise Infinity without having to commit to a real push on him. It's scummy and also reads like potential distancing. 130 in particular is terrible; I don't know how to explain it but just read it dear god.

If Wraith flips scum lynch Infinity.

-- Postie

Townread here.

Assume Wraith is town. What changes for you?

I don't have any other scumreads; haven't thought that far ahead. I'd probably start pressuring the lurkers and trying to sort dreal again.

-- Postie

Why would you have to think about future scumreads?

VOTE: Tea and Biscuits

This was like, a 180. Not gonna lie, super weird.

[The Wood Cutters]

This is fairly typical Commander Shepard logic. It's not really AI.

-- Postie

Oh?

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm curious to how you know something is not AI when someone's join date is today.

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm curious to how you know something is not AI when someone's join date is today.

They're an alt and I think most people who've played with their main would recognise them here.

-- Postie

[The Wood Cutters]

As long as you're not RC I can tolerate an alt.

I just have a simple thing where I want to know how postie knows who your main is without you ever stating it.

[The Wood Cutters]

You kinda suck at this. You literally said.

Wraith is town Postie is scum.

Literally saying Wraith is town.

[The Wood Cutters]

So Wraith is town Postie is scum.

oh wow would ya look at that

[The Wood Cutters]

I didn't say Wraith would flip town.

You mean if Wraith flips town?

So Wraith is town

Postie is scum.

like dude.

[The Wood Cutters]

Off of memory this is literally the 2nd time you said something and went to go on to say something completely ass backwards

[The Wood Cutters]

Most scum slips come from town and most scum slips are pushed by scum.

Scum like to have something that is concrete based. To say hey well I had evidence. It's a lot harder to form reads mentally and analyze posts.

[The Wood Cutters]

Most scum slips come from town and most scum slips are pushed by scum.

Scum like to have something that is concrete based. To say hey well I had evidence. It's a lot harder to form reads mentally and analyze posts.

That is still not talking about this post. This is a general abstract and I agree with the general abstract. That doesn't mean that is what is happening here.

Explain to me what you think about Postie's posts that I called out.

Most scum slips come from town and most scum slips are pushed by scum.

Scum like to have something that is concrete based. To say hey well I had evidence. It's a lot harder to form reads mentally and analyze posts.

[The Wood Cutters]

scum slip come from town and scum slip pushed by scum.

[The Wood Cutters]

VOTE: sheppy poo

[The Wood Cutters]

I mean we already have one conf!scum in ThinkMomo slot.

ThinkBig is literally a lurk sack and never posts when he's scum. Funny how he's doing the same in this game. I'm just finding the other two.

[The Wood Cutters]

I mean we already have one conf!scum in ThinkMomo slot.

ThinkBig is literally a lurk sack and never posts when he's scum. Funny how he's doing the same in this game. I'm just finding the other two.

gin head correct?

Yeah, I'm refering to the open i modded and Pine's game he hosted to the thing on ThinkBig doing jack.

[The Wood Cutters]

Also going to try my hardest to not be toxic

[The Wood Cutters]

I want you to know I have no shame in saying I'm going to take your town reads to find scum and scum reads to find town.

[The Wood Cutters]

i should probably go to bed because my patience is very thin right now

[The Wood Cutters]

I fucking hate RC games.


I'll make sure he gets the message.

[The Wood Cutters]

Shepard, you admitted yourself that scumslip a tend to come from town more often than scum

wtf is this. No one is making the counter argument cause it's obvious: postie just mixed up a word regardless of her alignment so it's NAI. That's it

Yes but it is 60/40 and even so you always lynch the slip because 40 percent of the time you get a scum and a confirmed townie out of it. If it was just about Tea and Biscuits yeah but it isn't.

Furthermore just because something more often happens from a Town player doesn't mean that is the case here.

People are using statistics to avoid a value judgment on whether it is a slip to them and the logical fallacy is horrendous.

For example: More than half of the faces on a d20 are greater than 9. Someone rolls an 8.
I say "The die rolled an 8."
Thread: Impossible! You know d20's roll 10+ more often than not right?
Me: wtf it is clearly an 8. Look at the die.
Thread: Stop arguing the die is an 8. We don't care to talk about what the die is.
I reroll and get a 4 and announce it.
Thread: Talk to us when you get higher than a 11.

Me: I fail my patience save.

Tea and Biscuits scumslipped.

Either you need to read it and admit you're ignoring it because probability OR
You are saying you are ignoring any potential scumslip for the rest of the game because of a logical fallacy
OR you can say you don't think it is a slip.

After all most votes don't result in a lynch as reads change over time. Does that mean to never vote as it won't result in a lynch? That is absurd.

490

[The Wood Cutters]

Oh no, it works.

Pushing "scum slips" and going "assume Player X is town" makes your arguments lose value, like a lot.

[The Wood Cutters]

VOTE: Wraith

[The Wood Cutters]

viewtopic.php?p=8750811#p8750811

Go read that. Obvi it's Gin talking.

ANYTHING CAN BE CONSTRUED AS A SCUMSLIP.

STOP FUCKING PUSHING A SCUM SLIP THAT'S NOT EVEN A SCUM SLIP;A SD[ PAOSG; J;S DG;LJJASG;LJK

[The Wood Cutters]

Like fuck me, I avoid the newbie queue for a reason. I joined into a Large head first game because I wanted to fight with the best to get my skill level up.

[The Wood Cutters]

SO.

SHEPPY POO.

WHO ELSE IS SCUM.

WHO ELSE IS TOWN.

OH WAIT LET ME TALK YOUR LANGUAGE.

ASSUME POSTIE IS TOWN WHOS SCUM?!1?1

[The Wood Cutters]

lol my vote isnt naked, i'm just revoting wraith cuz Nacho is gonna yell at me for dicking around in his absence.

We talked about Wraith before sweetie.

A lot has happened to many different people so get to commenting on them.

[The Wood Cutters]

YOU CANT BE FUCKING SERIOUS

[The Wood Cutters]

like, I feel like RC is genuinely having fun here. Hasn't power tunneled yet so that means there is either no scum in danger or RC is genuinely town.

I got theory work on RC i'm keeping to myself to see how it plays out.

The great part is, even tho we may clash heads a bit, I don't think we will be the N1 kill anymore so that's chill, or at least we got some competition.

hey nancy, if you were scum, would you kill RC?

[The Wood Cutters]

Gin if you're going to define 'power tunnel' as my scum meta then you are going to have a very bad time

If I told you everything, you'd adapt. honey I said there was a lot of theory work behind it

[The Wood Cutters]

ThinkMomo gets a light townread for the one in three rule. Wraith is already not getting my vote til T&B flips.

ThinkMomo + Wraith town block?

Honey i'm gonna have to stop you right there before I policy lynch you of your reads.

First off.

ThinkMomo.

ThinkBig.

Lurks as scum.

ThinkBig is lurking.

ThinkMomo is lurking.

ThinkMomo is scum.


That should be simple enough for you to follow.

[The Wood Cutters]

No but like, Im being honest when I say part of my reads this game are forming on what is the opposite of what sheppy says. It's evident that sheppy finds town!scummy at face value as real scum and what scum do, who are aware to not be scummy, are granted the townish reads.

In essence, I'm P-sure I understand how sheppy poo's mind works and I can use that as a 2nd resource. What's left is to turn the sheppy poo into a sheepy poo.

[The Wood Cutters]

Spoiler: Although, I'm pretty much going to be like this all game.

[The Wood Cutters]

Can you drop the fucking act when regarding who you are. Like I don't care about the role play, know yourself out but I have never once thought I was going to break my keyboard by pressing the keys as hard as I am when I rage at that useless drivel.


INFINITY I DON'T CARE I WONT HIM TO POST

[The Wood Cutters]

fuck all of ya'll page top

[The Wood Cutters]

Say that one more fucking time and I'm going to break my rule and be like RC and push for your lynch and I will not stop.

[The Wood Cutters]

VOTE: Shepard

i want it gone.

It's like 90% town but I dont care.

[The Wood Cutters]

Hey Shepard, want to 1v1?

Only you or me be the lynch for the day.

Hows that sound

[The Wood Cutters]

How about yes?

That is literally the game loss walking. I could almost promise you he wont die because of his reads. He will fuck LyLo and I promise that.

I am not going to put up with it and watch a game be pissed away.

[The Wood Cutters]

You scum read me because I disagree with you. That's the only fucking thing.

I call you out on your bad logic and shit reads and I'm scum for proving you wrong.

Like holy shit, I'm just waiting to see who is going to try and buddy you because as long as they agree with your push, you're pocketed in an instant.

[The Wood Cutters]

let's really not do this please

Are you telling me to calm down

[The Wood Cutters]

Well shit.

Okay.

[The Wood Cutters]

I'll just go to sleep then. Although a good morning flash wagon would be nice on TM.

VOTE: ThinkMomo

[The Wood Cutters]

I'd rather not argue because if RC tells me to calm down I know it's serious but this is where I'm happiest with my vote.

[The Wood Cutters]

last time i remember we thought it was scum

[The Wood Cutters]

VOTE: RC

Bad RC.

Is this a joke vote where you two pretend to piss away at each other to keep each other alive?

[The Wood Cutters]

RC, reads. What are they.

[The Wood Cutters]

That's not just lurking, that's lazy play. If your only scumread through almost 40 pages is solely from the easy target VT claim, you're not even trying to a deliberate extent.

weren't you scum reading Infinity and giving him shit solely for his miller claim

[The Wood Cutters]

That was the most fucking town replace out I've seen.

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm back. I'm on Page 11, so I imagine catch up will take quite a while, hence if you have anything for me, let me know.

[The Wood Cutters]

* Again I'm super-skeptical of Infinity's Miller claim. It was totally unprompted, but that means nothing when it comes to Miller claims - it could just as easily be scum trying to preemptively justify an investigation result as it could be town preemptively attempting to dispel uncertainty. But his flavor claim (Edward V) makes absolutely no sense IMO. Richard III would make much more sense for a Miller. Miller also seems like a very unusual pick for a Mini, unless it's only part of the role.

You've stated twice now that a Miller is an unusual pick for a Mini which isn't the case and isn't actually something that I understand; can you explain your reasoning behind this? I don't understand why you added the bit about the claim being unprompted but that meaning absolutely nothing.

Your "his flavor claim makes no sense!" attack also makes absolutely no sense (your alternative for a "good" miller claim is a king that probably murdered his brother which is less miller material and more scum material whereas "not being crowned but still being a king" makes infinitely more sense for a miller claim but you haven't tried to address this in the least bit")

The majority of your content otherwise is "this post is horrible! i like this post!". My expectation would be that there would be a few things that you'd comment on and dive deeper than the most surface level possible.

I also made no attempt to pass them off as something more or, more importantly, something that people would agree with. My push on Chara I especially expected to be the only one to feel this way.

And this is where we disagreed. I'm not sure that there's anything more we can move forward with in regards to this particular point.

I think this is a puzzling mischaracterization, in the sense that it's one that you had no reason to make. Specifically, while I was this way during Sakura Wars, you've repeatedly seen that I think of my play in terms of utility first, artistry second, and have explicitly acknowledged that I do not mind dying at all, even preferring it that way, as scum.

You are probably misunderstanding the statement I made about your play there - scum players who dislike sticking their neck out are very much utility first, artistry second players (they are less likely to take risks that don't have a bright shiny reward sitting at the end of the tunnel whereas artistry first, utility second players are more willing to take high risk high reward moves), and being unwilling to stick your neck out has absolutely nothing to do with a willingness to die. What did you think I was saying here?

I expected you to be expectant of me, but elements of these interactions are a puzzle to me in the sense that a range of them are overblown, but only a certain fraction of them seem purposely so rather than all, and discerning which ones those are is difficult.

Is there a characterization of you that was inaccurate that you didn't cover in this spurt of posting?
The "I didn't expect people to believe my case" isn't something that's immediately obvious; you posted a sizeable wall, you went in depth, you sold the read.
The using activity as a point against you was a bad interpretation yes, but I don't think that it's a particularly unreasonable one unless you expect me to be aware of your schedule.
The "sticking your neck out" point is a point where you're either completely confused as to what I'm saying or I'm completely confused as to what you're rebuttal is saying.

[The Wood Cutters]

you're

[The Wood Cutters]

It feels like you're trying to find something to nitpick for the sake of it, allowing you to criticise Infinity without having to commit to a real push on him.

So, I suppose I understand this argument. I don't understand the strength of it.
Wraith seems to be looking for something to nitpick for nitpicking's sake, allowing him to drift along in the game without having to commit to a real push period. I don't understand why Wraith not wanting to push Infinity means they're scumbuddies - it might also mean that he's reluctant to open himself up to criticism to that degree, it might also mean that he's testing the waters before making a sizeable post (before, Infinity was the only person he felt comfortable talking about, then I started attacking his criticism of the miller claim and then suddenly Infinity isn't a significant read at all).

Scum!Wraith can call out scum!Infinity for faking a miller claim.

If this was the case, I don't think his criticism of it would be so transparently horrible.

How strange it is that T&B is shifting to attacking me immediately after I shifted against him, but his avenue of attack completely ignores my most recent posts where I changed my view on Infinity.

Except... this didn't happen.
A large part of Postie's push against you was based on you nitpicking against Infinity but having no intention of following through with an actual push, which your new viewpoint supports pretty solidly.

This continued "nacho will scumread this" posting kind of bothers me

The "Nacho will scumread this" posting is probably the posting I've liked the most, oddly enough.

Wraith's reaction to the miller claim was really good, even if I disagree with it:

Can you explain where you're coming from with this?
Why is Wraith's reaction to the miller claim any sort of good and why hasn't my attack on Wraith factored in your read on me at all?

[The Wood Cutters]

If a cop investigates a miller, they return a guilty result despite the fact that the miller is aligned with the Town.

[The Wood Cutters]

Is there anything that I can do to help you get a little more engaged in the game, Superjack?

[The Wood Cutters]

It doesn't confuse anything but cop, and when it flips, it flips as a Miller.

[The Wood Cutters]

<3 that's good. I should be back into it more. Just been feeling run down recently.

Is it just Sheriff it confuses? What about corner, or invest?
What about when it flips?

Sorry to hear about being run down, I've been feeling sort of similarly lately (not sure if it's based on not getting enough sleep/not eating enough or what but I started working the night shift at work and have been pretty solidly drained since my body just isn't used to it yet). Has Postie talked to you about her reads recently? If so, what do you think about them?

[The Wood Cutters]

Nacho, what do you think about wraith being different from OotS?

Wraith being different from OotS and his usual towngames is one of the things that are standing out to me in particular. For one, the way he's approaching scumhunting this game (in particular his viewpoint on you) is different from how I've seen him approach the game in the past - there's been nothing in his posts that show him working through his paranoia, he just has a couple of vague and absolutely horrible reasons to doubt your claim and then he says he feels OK about you because "activity" (extremely shallow read), and the rest of the reads he gives are just opinions; there isn't anything that shows him doing anything but going through the motions and that's a far cry from the Wraith as town that I've seen before.

Now, a degree of this (in particular the going through the motions bit) could just be from burnout/loss of stamina, but the treatment of you still hasn't really been explained to my satisfaction and that treatment of you being something that's incredibly unnatural regardless of whether he's burnt out or not is why it's remained such a sticking point for me.

[The Wood Cutters]

Does that make sense or is it now completely useless?

[The Wood Cutters]

That paragraph probable come across as more certain than I really feel.

I agree with Prism that this line adds in more nuance to a read that Empking certainly didn't fake in Sakura Wars. I don't think Sakura Wars is a good example of Empking's scumgame in general, though.

Phrases like "These statements don't come from town" is not just applying pressure.

Empty rhetoric, while a fairly ineffective way of applying good pressure, is the bread and butter of people who are trying to apply pressure for pressure's sake.

perhaps trying to pre-empt his possible suspicion of you.

I've never found this to be a particularly useful tactic (or one that is employed often).

I find it reasonably likely that wraith was suspicious of my claim but hadn't looked into my content until he did, and he liked my content.

I think that you're cutting him too much slack.
Sure, that's a reasonable narrative, but is there enough to support it?

1) The reasons for him being suspicious of your claim don't make any sense whatsoever. The flavor argument is utter shit, the "hah! there aren't Millers in a Mini!" argument is similarly nonsensical. When people point out that his perspective doesn't make sense, he doesn't stand behind it; he just leaves it at that.

2) Why does he like your content? What about your posting did he like? Why did he think it had to come from town? The only thing he said was "I approve of Infinity's posting", while if he actually thought your content was good enough to supplant his paranoia of your Miller claim, I think that he would probably put more effort into showing his work on that townread there.

[The Wood Cutters]

Yeah that makes sense.

post 439

Look at the amount of depth here, and wraith also said he had burnout in that game not too long before that post.

Sometimes burnout comes in strong as hell, sometimes is comes a little weaker, but I do think you have a point in that town!Wraith's engagement with the game would almost certainly be more nuanced than the catchup we got here.

[The Wood Cutters]

That flavor makes sense for a miller, but also for scum. I just wish people would quit claiming. Is this a standard thing to do in a closed setup?

Miller claiming immediately is fairly standard; avoids a situation where the cop investigates the miller, miller is mislynched and cop is nightkilled for absolutely no benefit at all.

Data on my omnitool says Infinity has fake claimed cop before. I do not find the miller claim believable. Furthermore miller does match the history in the sense of neveer being crowned but a 12 year old boy who gets assassinated by Richard is unlikely a miller. Not crowed yes, which I found a first glance. Looking deeper I find miller unlikely. The question is if Infinity324 is lying as I suspect he is if he is scum for it.

Making the argument that a miller doesn't make sense as a miller because you don't agree with the flavor is fairly silly, especially when the rationale (he is a Monarch despite not being crowned) makes a perfect amount of sense.

I had TWC as a townlean until you poked them with "you do look scummy TWC".

That is something either said to a buddy or someone you know is town. I don't like it.

What?
Drealmer interacted with us in a way where it was either a scumpartner or scum talking to a townie, and we're scummier as a result...?

[The Wood Cutters]

I don't know. I really don't care, literally anything I do on D1 gets me killed eventually, so why bother?

This reads vaguely town.
Is an absolutely horrible read to have - if you have decided that whatever you do will kill you and you're not going to have an impact on the game as a whole, would recommend replacing out and taking a break from mafia until your batteries are recharged.

[The Wood Cutters]

What lead you to believe that millers were unacceptable in minis but not in larges?

[The Wood Cutters]

I fucking hate D1 in closed setups and prefer to get through them as fast and cleanly as possible. The more flips there are the better I can start getting down to business more seriously.

There has been plenty of content on the table where you can get down to business more seriously now.
There's no significant difference between Day 1 and Day 2; getting a flip Day 2 of a lynch no one really cares about and a nightkill of someone who would have helped solve the game (but didn't get time to) isn't particularly productive. It's also not like if you actively lurk through Day 1 then Day 2 you'll be able to find some hidden motivation and turn it on; I started skimming the 20-30something whatever that was and lost a pretty strong chunk of motivation to properly read through the actually useful pieces at the end of it.

If this is your last game for a while, then I suggest going out with a bang and not a whimper - play in the way that will leave you with the best memories of the game as opposed to whatever is happening here.

[The Wood Cutters]

For the record, that's another reason why I believe the miller claim. If by LyLo no cop has died, obviously the play should be for the cop to claim at that point, reveal targets and the sort.

IF THERE IS NO COP, you lynch Infinity.

[The Wood Cutters]

IF THERE IS NO COP, you lynch Infinity.

Slight disagreement between heads, but no.

[The Wood Cutters]

I feel a Miller in a Mini can be a role that heavily shifts balance compared to in a Large. Since mislynches in Minis are usually more significantly bad for the town, it can lead to an easy mislynch that can easily move right into a mislynch on the Cop who claimed the guilty result. Two mislynches in a row, with one being a critical power role, with three scum, would severely handicap the town's efforts and probably lose them the game. It's not nearly as big a balance problem in a Large because there's far more targets for the Cop to potentially investigate and each mislynch isn't potentially crippling.

Site meta is for millers to claim immediately, which takes down the chances of them being mislynched by a pretty significant degree.
Roles that swing number of mislynches also aren't particularly rare in Minis (Belkar and Leonshade's roles in OOTS both affected the number of available mislynches).
Putting a miller in with no Cop is also a fairly acceptable mod move.

[The Wood Cutters]

What in particular is confusing about my posts?

[The Wood Cutters]

Nacho head has been catching up and talking with people recently. The only post not made by me recently was #1009, which was a post made by Gin.

[The Wood Cutters]

Empking, can you expand on the Think read?

I'm currently conf!biased that Think is scum because of the ThinkBig head not posting.

[The Wood Cutters]

On mobile and will be home soon to reqoute but Infinity does have a point about Rogue One. I honestly can't shake that part.

[The Wood Cutters]

I mean we already have one conf!scum in ThinkMomo slot.

ThinkBig is literally a lurk sack and never posts when he's scum. Funny how he's doing the same in this game.

I'm just finding the other two.

Where did this read come from?

Why no push, ever, on the player?

Okay first off, i gotta get it out of the way but HEY FARSIDE <3 It's Gin, who played as Blawb in the Hunger Games 2 I doubt you remember much but you were in my first game so HEYYYYYYYYYYYYY!


Back to business, I have concerns with your statement here.

First with the bolded, the post you quote literally answers the question you're seeking. So I don't understand why this was an issue for you to see where my read came from.

With the italicized, I started out thinking the ThinkMomo slot was scum when they did that hydra drama of not getting to work and then not posting at all. However, I also know that ThinkBig as scum stupidly tries to throw heat on his scum buds and "distance" so, assuming ThinkMomo, ergo ThinkBig, was scum, waiting and not giving them pressure would mean I get to see ThinkBig show me his teammates.

Also, you're only on 32 so I'll give you that but as you keep reading you'll see the push pick up speed and lead to the current vote we have on them now.

[The Wood Cutters]

I just glossed over hunger games.
No wonder I forgot. I replaced out of that game.
It doesn't change my view on twc

Didnt expect it too, I'm just friendly

[The Wood Cutters]

Can we get an extension on account of the unusually high number of replacements D1

@Aristophanes

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm not liking far sides push

[The Wood Cutters]

who did they

NOT

interact with cuz an ISO skim tells me they're getting involved with each player

[The Wood Cutters]

I'm starting to think it's a scummy conf!bias.

"Oh well, I'm going to tunnel you to make it look like I'm doing something but it won't matter what I say is factual"

[The Wood Cutters]

How does one say they don't interact with players given they do a weird gambit TO SPECIFICALLY INTERACT WITH MASTINA, push drealz for RVS, and have the highest post count that has a diversity of names.

[The Wood Cutters]

Like, that is off of memory fam. That wasn't me really trying to dig up evidence.

[The Wood Cutters]

kinda want to flash wagon drealz

[The Wood Cutters]

read them as a single slot

that's totally gin though

baby you know it

and I'm actually missing your content so like and it's ME. So there's that.

[The Wood Cutters]

not as in "missing" as in can't find, but like, emotionally. That kinda miss

[The Wood Cutters]

you mean that one time where I called you bad town and then realized you were actually scummy and I was in for the fight for my life?

Yea I remember you ya little shit. Even scared me as scum AND WE WERE THE SAME BLOODY TEAM!

[The Wood Cutters]

you mean that one time where I called you bad town and then realized you were actually scummy and I was in for the fight for my life?

Yea I remember you ya little shit. Even scared me as scum AND WE WERE THE SAME BLOODY TEAM!

/says in a playful tone that might not be understood is playful.

[The Wood Cutters]

Inb4 someone tells me that Thinkmomo replacement is also NAI:

momo posted in this thread less than 4 hours ago, and in this one 3 hours ago, so it's not like momo site flaked.

People had already established that TB's scum meta is to lurk it out, so I guess momo simply couldn't handle the situation on his own and white flagged. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason for him to walk away and not even bother requesting a replacement.

This is a CONFIRMED scum slot. 100% .. 10 out of 10. 24/7

~A50

This doesn't advance the "TB is scum because lurking" case at all. Momo was probably annoyed that TB was lurking, which he has the capacity to do as either alignment.

[The Wood Cutters]

Wraith:

Right now, Wraith is either a townie who is just going through the motions and lurking through the entirety of Day 1 for no good reason, or he's scum who is resigned to dying eventually and is playing like garbage as a result. I believe his Miller speculation despite disagreeing with it thoroughly; the flavor argument is utter nonsense and the balance argument is incorrect, but 1008 feels like a genuine enough argument as a whole and the followup in 1021 seems like someone who is frustrated with the reasons they are being pushed (which has nothing to do with alignment, by the way, but it does mean that this line is probably genuine).

I believe his "I hate Day 1s in closed setups" talk due to his post-game commentary in Darkest Dungeon and I believe his "no matter what I do I'll get scumread" attitude based on his post-game commentary in Large Normal 200. Neither of these things make him town, and it stands out to me that he always seems to put a fairly decent effort into the game regardless of his attitude.

So, while I'm still not townreading him, it's a little easier for me to see a situation where he's town here, and I'm willing to give him a bit of space since this is his last game for a while. However, I will say this - Wraith, if you decide to put some effort into the game and actually read through and post up to your usual standards, I will make sure that none of your words are lost and I will followup with any lines of suspicion you feel strongly about to the best of my ability. If you decide that you'd rather not play for the first day, I'm fine giving you a day pass, but I'd request that you give our vote to us - there's no guarantee that I'll be living that long in the game and I'd rather your vote go to players who are actively trying to solve as opposed to just voting somewhere for the sake of voting.

[The Wood Cutters]

Empking:

While I don't at all disagree with Prism's 974 re: Empking, I do think that Sakura Wars is a bad example of his scumrange in general. Something that I like about his play this game is his lack of agenda; I think he probably has a tendency to tunnel as scum (in Sakura Wars he tunneled LUV, in the Mini Normal we played together he tunneled Joshz and TwoFace, and in Open 665 which I looked up to confirm my theory, he ended up tunneling Alisae. His play here feels more like he's trying to sort the game out as opposed to trying to catch someone on a gotcha point.

In addition to the two points that Prism brought up (that also seem pretty genuine to me), I also liked this post by Empking:

So that was a lot of noise, with only Shephard changing his vote or posting or interacting with something that could cause his vote to change. Everything else was - pretty much - worthless spam. However, at least T&B is still the biggest wagon even if only on three votes.

Although, I think there is a psychological thing where all these spam posts reduce the pressure on scum since is increases the number of posts between votes and makes them feel safe.

I do dislike the assertion that ThinkMomo is somehow lock-town from 277 as he says here, though; one good point shouldn't make a player a townread for the rest of the game.

[The Wood Cutters]

Prism:

I disliked his opening post because it seemed like he was overextending himself on it; in particular, I thought that his attack on Not Chara's 16 was fairly unreasonable and reachy (it assumed that calling drealmerz obvscum for "not picking a player" in his opening post is a reasonable point of view to have), his rebuttal in 313 is not particularly reassuring but it's not a big deal overall.

His interactions with me in particular (167, 315) I think are probably slightly less likely to come from Prism as scum than Prism as scum, but, as this is something I talked about as an expected towntell from him in camn's revenge, it's certainly a weaker point.

Gin earlier talked about thinking that Prism bringing up a high chance of us being scum but not being able to word it well as something that is scummy as a whole, but I disagree there - if Prism as scum wanted to dance with me, then I'm fairly confident he'd have reasons for pushing in mind and I don't find it overly difficult to believe that he's having trouble putting his scumread of me into words. I don't think that there's any reason for him as town to stay quiet about it.

I'd like Prism to expand on 361 if possible; am fairly sure I've talked about this before but anyone who is calling Wraith's initial discussion of miller town needs to lay out their thought process so I can start understanding it better. I additionally felt that his wall was extraordinarily underwhelming and unless he's giving Wraith brownie points for scumreading T&B (which would be silly as shit) then I don't understand why he would find his contributions here genuine. It's especially important for Prism to expand on this since Wraith is one of three townleans he actually has.

Prism's push against T&B is flawed. The main thrust of the initial argument seems to be that T&B's posts didn't reflect them backing off Drealmerz and that Drealmerz didn't really give them a reason to back off like they claimed. For one, I don't think that you need to make posts reflecting the strength of your read against someone and be 100% truthful about it. Secondly, the posts he outlined as 100% not coming from someone who was just pressuring were empty rhetoric, and, as I've talked about before, empty rhetoric is a fairly common way to pressure someone for pressure's sake. Finally, he makes the claim that "drealmer giving content was never an issue" which, to some extent is true, but pretending there's no difference between Drealmer's 80 and before and the content he produced after that is borderline insane. However, I would be interested in hearing Postie's response to this post here - why didn't you let Superjack know that you were feeling doubts to your drealmer read?

I don't think his interactions with Gin over how he handled our read on us is particularly alignment indicative; he's likely to believe he's in the right regardless of alignment, and so the indignation he felt wouldn't even have to be faked.

I agree with his points in 965 that don't really have anything to do with attitude although his drealmer read is a little bit weird (he's mostly null, sometimes he makes good points but he might buddy me here as scum and so lean scum).

The parts from Prism I feel the most bleh about are his townread on Wraith (would like him to expand on what exactly he sees there) and his push on T&B (don't understand why he feels as strongly about it as he does at all). I'm still not sure how I feel about him; the way that he seems to be scumreading the majority of the game and only having a few townreads he feels decently about seems like a genuine approach to the game but none of the pushes he's really gotten behind have felt particularly town and so I still probably end up with him south of null.

[The Wood Cutters]

ThinkMomo:

I liked their push on Almost Chara, it felt genuine enough.

However, no content after the initial spurt is a bit concerning, and while momo's lack of posting doesn't bother me, Think Big's certainly does (especially when momo is calling him out in thread to post more). I also find the way momo's very strong AC read pretty much completely dies out is a bit suspicious, would like to see the post flip analysis he alluded to in post 218.

I don't mind our vote on this slot although I don't think that ThinkBig's lurking scum meta is a particularly compelling reason to vote him here (in the last game I played with him, he was town in a hydra and posted twice).

[The Wood Cutters]

That's as far as Nacho got in the PT last night.

[The Wood Cutters]

I mean, we could always policy lynch Sheppy, I'm still down for that

[The Wood Cutters]

Where is superjack?

[The Wood Cutters]

Nacho, what do you think of my townread on you?

I think Prism has a valid criticism when he says that I would probably accidentally shadow you as scum.

I also think that good reads on me (early, before I'm forced to start making obvious scum moves) are typically more feeling than logic and I think you're probably picking up on that due to your oots comment.

[The Wood Cutters]

Gonna be honest, after the flurry of activity a couple days ago it really feels like the day is in the denouement stage and people on the fence are just trying to convince themselves which wagon to commit to as deadline approaches.

Read and comment on the post I made on you, please.

[The Wood Cutters]

Letting Wraith get away with that and even townreading him for it is shameful.

...she says, waving an angry fist at all of those harsh and cruel injustices that didn't actually exist.

Who has said that they're townreading Wraith for that? Who is letting him get away with something he shouldn't be getting away with? If you're referencing the recent post on him that I made, please read it again; I don't think you're understanding the position I'm taking here.

[The Wood Cutters]

Bolded the problem here. While I may have been reticent to stick my neck out in Sakura Wars, the other game you've seen with me as scum, and the one I was by far more energetic in, had the exact opposite case.

I said that sticking your neck out has nothing to do with willingness to die. You bring up that you've been energetic and being willing to die and energetic and willing to carry. I have no idea what your statement has to do with mine; we are talking past each other here.

[The Wood Cutters]

If I was forced to hazard a guess, I suspect that you know there's a lot that you don't know about my scumplay-how that plays into your alignment here, I'm not quite sure, which is why it's a puzzle.

It doesn't play into my alignment much. As town, I don't actually know what you're capable of. I don't know your natural tendencies. I do know you have a terrifying range based on what you've demonstrated in a short time, I know you have a very strong drive, and I know that you have a great mind for strategy. If you are scum, you are my biggest threat. And so, I'm much more aggressive about getting a read on you than I am for others, which means a lot of my angles will be bad. As scum, I know I have to fake interactions with you, I know you'll be reading me in the hydra, so immediately I'll be pushing to make you a contender for a mislynch, immediately looking to discredit you and making your experience getting into the game as difficult as possible, and I have the perfect excuse to do it.

This post has no real purpose for anyone not named Prism and, even then, its usefulness is debatable.

[The Wood Cutters]

I think prism is saying that he can be willing to stick his neck out as scum.

My problem is that he goes "I totally do stick my neck out as scum! Here are a bunch of examples that have nothing to do with what you're trying to say!".

I think this probably happens because I dropped a term that means something different for me than it does for other people (I play on different sites or I get concepts I like from certain people and it never turns out well). I'm just trying to get is back on track.

[The Wood Cutters]

I think your treatment of me in general with those posts, both with activity and with purported scum tendencies, were nuanced and odd. The not realizing my intent with the post about AC wasn't much of an issue to me, though I remember the force or energy with which you took to it to again be strange.

To be fair with regards to the activity point, it's not like I saw you lurking and called you out on it, it's that I didn't know you were posting with limited time because you didn't say anything about it. Yes I'm aware of sketchy schedules (note how I am extremely in and out myself), but I assumed "when you're here you're here" erroneously. That was a mistake, but I don't see it being the type of mistake that eats away at you for pages and pages.

[The Wood Cutters]

Nacho catch up was terrible.

Is this where I get to ask why and you don't explain it at all?

[The Wood Cutters]

Nacho catch up was terrible.

Is this where I get to ask why and you don't explain it at all?

[The Wood Cutters]

For the content...not the format.

I believe this is the fourth time I've seen this comment, all with no explanation. Could you please explain what about his content you liked?

#294...not a fan of fake claims.

This seems like a pretty shallow way to approach the situation. Almost comes up with a generally convoluted plan to get a read on our slot and the only thing you can respond with is "meh, I don't like fake claims?".

Your followup in that their dismissal of Infinity's question is odd because...? The alternative of them being scum here means that they faked suspicion of Infinity and then didn't like him questioning them so they just... took it back? Really?

#784...example of why the more I read of TWC the more suspect of them I become.

I (Nacho head, separate from the Gin head whose post you're referring to) don't really like the way Shepherd's been treated this game, regardless of the silly denials and regardless of what history exists. I don't understand why you find that post scummy, though, and I'm skeptical that's a real read that you have on our slot considering your townread RC expressed a suspiciously identical sentiment in this post.

LAMIST TWC...you don't need time to decide. You're voting someone. Why are you concerned with the three recent replace ins? If we wanted an extension we are capable of asking for one.

Just because I'm voting someone doesn't mean that I'm comfortable with a lynch, which is something I feel should be fairly obvious. My personal schedule meant that I wouldn't be able to catch up and respond to replacements properly without an extension. I find this an extraordinarily obnoxious attack coming from someone who was V/LA over the weekend and would only have ~4 hours to do anything after his catchup was completed - were you not interested in catching up fully today, or...?

By TWC seems awfully wishy washy on the ThinkMomo suspicions/vote. But happy to keep voting that slot....of course.

Yes. I don't know your alignment. I've explained my position on the matter. But instead of addressing the explanation or explaining why you thought my thought process might be fake, you go "they're not sure of us and still they're voting us. ha!".

Your scumreads are a hot mess if I'm parsing your catch up correctly; you're scumreading us because Gin said that he thought Shepherd was town and still wanted to lynch them and you're scumreading me because I was wishy washy in my suspicions of you (even though Gin was anything but). You're scumreading AC because you don't like fakeclaims, because they said that you were being saved by scum, and because they said that they had a reason for saying people were scum together even though they were suspecting each other. You're scumreading Cloud because you... disliked his VCA (your "implication" point was something you read wrong)? Am I missing something here?

[The Wood Cutters]

I felt twc case on prism was a stretch and some of the actions they have done seem to come across as being purposely antagonistic.

I've talked about my Prism case with lots of words; do you have any commentary on it beyond "a stretch"? What points stood out to you as specifically? I don't understand why "purposely antagonistic" would be a scumtell.

Mainly my issue is you attacked prism and that went no where you be basically steeped reads there after and occasionally throw shade at a few lurkers
To go from 60 to 0 is not something I see as normal.

It's funny that you call us sheepers when we've been at the forefront of the Prism push (which has been a constant interaction pretty much since the start of the game), Gin was the one who started the TB/momo paranoia earlier, and I started pushing Wraith because Postie did. Doesn't surprise me that you've completely characterized my play as "occasionally throwing shade at a few lurkers"; just another instance of you not caring about what I'm writing.

That's because????

My guess would be that Gin didn't like your push for the same reason that it annoys me; your attack on us either demonstrates absolutely no awareness of what we've been doing this game, or it's annoyingly vague. Why did you think that my catchup posts sucked?

And those dreadful points they made where they didn't ask anything of the player they are calling scum?

The implication here seems to be that Almost Chara doesn't question people, and you're flat out wrong if that's what you're trying to say.
If you aren't, then I'm still confused.

[The Wood Cutters]

I feel better about lynching havingfitz than I did ThinkMomo.

The most important thing that I am looking for from a replacement in a precarious position as he was is the read he has on the counterwagon, whether it's a genuine progression or not and how contrived the case on them is, and the progression doesn't at all seem genuine to me and it seems contrived as shit.

294...not a fan of fake claims.

For example, this post is his first comment on any of AC's posts, which happened to be a response to the explanation that AC offered for the VT gambit. Now, havingfitz immediately scumreading it is a small red flag (it's believable enough, but fairly convenient for a scum!fitz here), but more significant is how shallow the attack is - I think it's indicative of fitz finding something to push on AC. For example, he could have talked about how AC's interactions with us seemed like someone buddying up to a player they thought was strong, he could have pointed out the original excuse of "I can be caught out by any role" and call this excuse a modification, he could have pointed out any number of things in the VT claim sequence that bothered him if the read was genuine, but instead, all he had to say was "I don't like fake claims".

The rest of his read on AC isn't as noticeably horrible, but it certainly doesn't look genuine - the only thing it focuses on is refuting the case on him and spinning it to push AC as scum with, which is expected behavior from scum.

Farside's opening I liked more - her tone is what stands out the most as being town from me, she doesn't match the conviction she feels as town as scum (or come anywhere near it), and I really liked her interactions with AC - the initial pushes of "you're a better player than this, town you is X and X and X" is something that felt very generally and is coincidentally something I've seen her push elsewhere as town, and the unexplained backoff of the read strikes me as a move she's very unlikely to make as scum regardless of AC's alignment (simply because it stands out so much) but seems like a perfectly understandable move as town.

[The Wood Cutters]

Infinity, who are your top three scumreads again?