Mini Normal 1897: Chocolate Mafia - Game Over

[hapahauli]

haaaaiiiiiiiiiiiii

VOTE: I am Innocent

Lynch liars, etc.

[hapahauli]

VOTE: TwoFace

He has reasons to scumread people...

TB's statement seems that he more is just appearing to believe because someone else said they did, when I would have expected him to first ask why the first person believed so I'm asking him why he didn't

That's stupid

More TB votes pls

I'd vote you over him based on what's happened so far

...but doesn't follow up, and is content with making dumb votes instead.

VOTE: transcend

Nothing Transcend is doing is alignment indicative. He's clearly trolling to anyone bothering to read the thread.

[hapahauli]

More TB votes pls

I'd vote you over him based on what's happened so far

This very clearly shows a read. It's not RVS.

[hapahauli]

Nothing Transcend is doing is alignment indicative. He's clearly trolling to anyone bothering to read the thread.

btw I disagree with this, but unfortunately I can't go into details because it will either A. out my main or B. violate ongoing rules.

Quote fixed. -BV

This isn't very helpful, ya know. Is there absolutely nothing you can say about Transcend?

[hapahauli]

This is where I'm at:

RB, EagerSnake, and TB are obv-town.

They're contributing, have their try-hard pants on, and are the driving force behind the game.

Transcend is also probably town

, since he's making a ton of sense so far and is pushing a lot of pro-town objectives.

Boon and TwoFace are ok, and I lean town on.

Boon is active, but is being dumb and pushing a lot of mafia objectives (instigating suspicion against obv-townies). TwoFace is in a similar boat. Active, and contributing, but not suspecting the right things. Regardless, I don't think the lynch should be going their way today.

Something_Smart I'm pretty null on.

His activity is "meh". The miller claim is NAI. But I can't really find anything scummy or townie to point into his filter.

HorrorDude and I_am_innocent are not active.

Scumreads are Eddie, DarkShadow, and Aronagrundy.

For the sake of formatting, will elaborate on each of them in the next post.

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: EddieCane

I'm probably most convinced on Eddie, because he's had the opportunity to post and contribute, but his contributions are pretty bad.

-----------------------------------

Firstly, he has a bunch of janky town-reads. Bad reads aren't necessarily alignment indicative, but the lack of paranoia he's showing doesn't feel very townie.

the fact transcend is l-1 already means he's probably town

Anyone can get run-up to l-1 early game... it's not exclusive to townies. Yet, Eddie is very against even considering the Transcend lynch, and posts #6-13 in his ISO all defend Transcend in some way.

eager and RB r town lol

This is probably correct. However it's the attitude that's scummy here. He's not interested in stopping suspicion on RB and Eager. He's just throws in a very dismissive comment and doesn't seem interested in elaborating on it at all.

I think arona is probably town

This read is the worst of the bunch. Reading Arona town because "gut" is both useless and stretches believability.

I think one or two bad town reads are individually excusable. All of them combined point to something mafia-motivated.

-----------------------------------

Secondly, take a look at his scumread contributions (I've quoted them all here):

VOTE: ss

I don't believe him no

fos ThinkBig

VOTE: thinkbig

Transcend I'm obviously a pr playing shitty so I'm not nkd cmon man...........

He's just not taking scumhunting seriously. Look in his filter, and compare the effort he puts into justifying setup speculation and town reads. By contrast, his scumhunting is shit, and he's voting TB (who is obv-town as all hell).

[hapahauli]

@hap - if you have a town lean on 2F, then why is your vote still on him?

Formatting. See post above.

rb is not obv town, especially when he is guilty of doing what he says scum does. his own definition points himelf to being scum for fucks sake

No. Your fight is TvT. Hypocrisy is both subjective and non-alignment indicative.

[hapahauli]

They're contributing, have their try-hard pants on, and are the driving force behind the game.

This does not equal town.

It does not guarantee town, but given the dynamics of the game so far and other traits in their filter (emotional, posting the first thing that comes to their mind, etc), I'm pretty sure it's town.

Who's more likely to be mafia? The two idiots screaming at each other in thread, or the guys in the background letting it happen?

[hapahauli]

hapa's reasoning is hella weak.

that said, I'd like to see more eddie votes

...

I'd rather pretend the claim never happened and judge him based how he actually plays. If he looks like scum, I'll lynch him. If he doesn't, I won't.

tbh this is how we should be treating SS.

We should not ever advocate lynching him simply because he claimed miller.

THANK YOU SOMEBODY GETS IT

VOTE: Eddie Cane

...

[hapahauli]

They're contributing, have their try-hard pants on, and are the driving force behind the game.

This does not equal town.

It does not guarantee town, but given the dynamics of the game so far and other traits in their filter (emotional, posting the first thing that comes to their mind, etc), I'm pretty sure it's town.

Who's more likely to be mafia? The two idiots screaming at each other in thread, or the guys in the background letting it happen?

Some of both...

That's a false dichotomy btw

How is it false? It's what I see happen repeatedly in games on this site. People go after the loud, controversial targets for lynches, and mafia lets town eat itself alive.

Why are you even attacking my reasoning if you are suspicious of EddieCane as well? To be voting him in this spot, you should realize that most of what I'm saying is valid.

[hapahauli]

They're contributing, have their try-hard pants on, and are the driving force behind the game.

This does not equal town.

It does not guarantee town, but given the dynamics of the game so far and other traits in their filter (emotional, posting the first thing that comes to their mind, etc), I'm pretty sure it's town.

Who's more likely to be mafia? The two idiots screaming at each other in thread, or the guys in the background letting it happen?

This is a good point. I've lost so many games due to nasty TVT and the scum team just sitting back and letting town eat itself alive. It's one of the things I need to work on in my play

Like Eddie and DarkShadow are basically doing what you did as mafia in Open 678.

I understand there's always margin for error in Day 1 cases, but going after people that are sitting back in the shadows are far more likely to turn up mafia than loud, controversial, and emotional players.

[hapahauli]

How is it false? It's what I see happen repeatedly in games on this site. People go after the loud, controversial targets for lynches, and mafia lets town eat itself alive.

It implies that the answer can't be both. With the amount of idiots screaming at each other this game has had, one of them is almost certainly scum. Though I am in agreement that the right place to look for scum right now is in the people in the background.

You're making the same fallacy. Why can't a bunch of idiots screaming at each other be all town? Anyway, I'm more interested in below...

Why are you even attacking my reasoning if you are suspicious of EddieCane as well? To be voting him in this spot, you should realize that most of what I'm saying is valid.

Why are those two things inconsistent? I think Eddie is scum, but not for the reasons you listed.

What are your reasons?

[hapahauli]

Eddie, you're picking and choosing things in my posts without considering my overall arguments and the context of the case.

Like I don't mind that you town read Transcend. I mind that you town-read a bunch of players for pretty light reasoning. It shows a lack of paranoia, since mafia have information about people's alignments.

Also, I'm not accusing you on meta based off other players. I'm accusing you of sitting back and watching the town eat itself alive.

You have scumreads (TB, and now TwoFace), but you're not pushing them unless you're prodded by other players to do so.

[hapahauli]

Is that for me, or someone else?

[hapahauli]

You hapa

He's arrogant, direct, confident, emotional, insulting other players, etc.

That stuff is generally dickish townie not concerned with image rather than mafia.

I don't consider him confirmed town by any means. It's just that given how this Day 1 has progressed, I find it much more likely that scum are lurking away while town eats itself alive.

[hapahauli]

I find it much more likely that scum are lurking away while town eats itself alive

how can town be eating itself alive when we have 2 basically confirmed scum caught?

Because your logic might not be as sound as you think it is?

[hapahauli]

Granted setup speculation is not my strongsuit. If anyone can build a convincing case for why certain claims don't make sense, I will listen. I've just not read anything remotely convincing, especially given TB's "host-meta" observations of BlackVoid.

[hapahauli]

Because your logic might not be as sound as you think it is?

why do people always want to do that? just cause we caught scum easily, doesn't mean you have to downplay my logic. I mean even if it isn't as sound as I think it is, chalk it up to scum caught for the wrong reasons.

bottom line is they are scum and anyone who thinks either of them are town, better just save their breath cause you won't be able to convince me to change it without some damn good evidence or a damn good case on somebody else.

I just don't "get" the reasoning on Transcend. Why does a soft-claim make someone mafia? Again, you're hinting at a lot of other reasons here (out of game) that don't really help me.

Also with the RB stuff, I see townies being super hypocritical all the time, and I don't understand why it's confirmed mafia as opposed to confirmed dumb.

[hapahauli]

first you say bad reads aren't alignment indicative. most people say confidence is townie, so why is me not acting paranoid scummy? should I be shading every person I read? I can throw out town reads as much as I want early d1, it's d1 this isn't the time for lock and key cases.

Confidence with reasoning is townie. Confidence without reasoning points to extra information.

I considered it. I don't think transcends behaviour is alignment indicative. he is a trolly player by nature and this is basically part for the course. half the games I'm in with transcend he's been lynched d1, and nearly always he's town. I said this as scum in Twoface's game and it is the truth: I don't lynch transcend d1 as a policy. risk vs reward dictates he's far more likely to flip town. also, I've seen him be a pr at l-1 and refuse to claim anything, or claim vt anything and flip pr. he despite trolling is not like momo for example because he is a competent player, so I'll never support lynching him d1 short of a flat out scum slip and I think it's a mistake

elaboration: I town read them. not strong enough to make a case. I'm not going to argue against a lynch on someone I am only 60% sure is town. I think lynching RB due to his sheer amount of content is stupid, especially since I feel a lot of his attention is due to his attitude. eager gives me a town vibe in attitude, weaker than RB. oh, and you agree with my reads so...

so you are telling me you have never had a gut read before?_? that's actually cute. explain how they "point to something mafia-motivated " btw cus thst sounds like random shit slinging.

I'll group these all here, because they miss the point. My issue is not with individual reads. It's all of them combined. Having all these reads combined with the justification that you have provided simply isn't believable.

It is this, combined with the lack of effort you have shown in pushing your scumreads that makes you suspect.

[hapahauli]

Useless setup discussion, pointless posts like 511 and 528 that strike me as him trying to appear carefree except they're just awkward.

And I just get pings from a lot of what he is doing, like defending Transcend and being unable to explain his reads.

I mean that's basically what I'm getting at.

Putting a ton of effort into useless town-reads and setup speculation as opposed to pushing scumreads and finding mafia.

[hapahauli]

Because your logic might not be as sound as you think it is?

why do people always want to do that? just cause we caught scum easily, doesn't mean you have to downplay my logic. I mean even if it isn't as sound as I think it is, chalk it up to scum caught for the wrong reasons.

bottom line is they are scum and anyone who thinks either of them are town, better just save their breath cause you won't be able to convince me to change it without some damn good evidence or a damn good case on somebody else.

I just don't "get" the reasoning on Transcend. Why does a soft-claim make someone mafia? Again, you're hinting at a lot of other reasons here (out of game) that don't really help me.

Also with the RB stuff, I see townies being super hypocritical all the time, and I don't understand why it's confirmed mafia as opposed to confirmed dumb.

I really hope you aren't town. I can't take losing yet another game because people can't see scum right in front of their face.

this game is giving me a headache now

Atleast try to help me understand this bruh.

[hapahauli]

Useless setup discussion, pointless posts like 511 and 528 that strike me as him trying to appear carefree except they're just awkward.

And I just get pings from a lot of what he is doing, like defending Transcend and being unable to explain his reads.

I mean that's basically what I'm getting at.

Putting a ton of effort into useless town-reads and setup speculation as opposed to pushing scumreads and finding mafia.

Yeah but I don't scumread him because I disagree with his reads (and for the record, that's something scum do more often than town in my experience).

I don't disagree with most of his reads. It's only the arona and TB reads I really disagree with. Also, I really don't care that he's individually reading Arona town and TB mafia.

It's that he was reading TB mafia and wasn't pushing it at all. It's that he was reading Arona town combiend with all his other town-reads that make it seem like he has extra information.

Anyway, I'm preaching to the choir.

[hapahauli]

No.

I think one or two bad town reads are individually excusable. All of them combined point to something mafia-motivated.

Sounds like you disagree with more than two.

"Bad town reads" = unjustified town reads
NOT reads I disagree with.

[hapahauli]

There are two votes on you and you're grandstanding already.

If my case is as bad and "scummy" as you say, why are you even scared that you'll be lynched?

[hapahauli]

Atleast try to help me understand this bruh.

your first mistake is thinking that the soft claim is why I think he is mafia. I was pretty sure he was mafia before the soft claim even happened. I was pretty sure he was mafia when I voted him the first time. When he made the mistake later by cc'ing the miller claim and then tried to play it off like he didn't, despite actually posting that he was

I Think That He Cannot Be My Role Given That I'm Miller

Oh.

VOTE: Transcend

[hapahauli]

also if im lol hammered vig/lynch the hammered

Dude you're at L-5

Also TwoFace do you think Transcend seriously meant to CC miller (and then changed his mind)? After claiming that his role was both confirmable and investigative?

Yeah, I think so. A non-serious miller claim doens't make any sense considering the context of the post he made it in.

Everything in #443 is methodical and serious. He very clearly lays out all his reads, including two very elaborate reads on Eddie and TwoFace

My scumreads are Eddie Cane, he doesn't give me a good feeling this game, I haven't really seen any game solving!?!?!??! from him?!?!?!?!?!? Although Maybe He Attempted to solve this rigorous game in the past 6 pages that I didn't read because I was EXTREMELY EXCITED TO POST MY READS FOR YOU GUYS TO UNDERSTAND even though i'm gonna be confirmed town or in the dead PT tomorrow

Twoface is the player that I believe was scum on my wagon. His push felt very forced and for bad reasons. He got a bit too happy and opportunistic.

Despite this, he feels the need to vote SS earlier for being "confirmed scum"

So he very clearly takes his miller claim seriously.

[hapahauli]

Also TwoFace do you think Transcend seriously meant to CC miller (and then changed his mind)? After claiming that his role was both confirmable and investigative?

so your turn now.

what do you make of it?

why if he said he is both confirmable and investigative do you think he said he was miller in an attempt to discredit you and your claim?

he said it was a wording error, and I believe that he meant to say "he cannot be miller given that I'm my role".

Even if that's the case (he "knows" you can't be miller), why would he ever do anything other than vote you in this game if you're "confirmed mafia" to him?

[hapahauli]

Like it is super-worth-it for him to just counter-claim and get you guaranteed lynched. But he's not doing it, and is in fact doing the opposite:

viewtopic.php?p=9034654#p9034654

So I just don't understand the possible town motivations here.

No hammers, I definitely want to give him an opportunity to explain himself. But this looks unbelievably bad.

[hapahauli]

Ok, well whats the point of all of this?

Transcend is telling us that he has information that confirms SS as scum. Despite this, he's content with lynching elsewhere, and refuses to claim that information. That's difficult to see town doing. It is more consistent with mafia trying to live an extra day with a bad claim than town interested in getting mafia lynched.

[hapahauli]

Like in what world does a townie go "Player X is confirmed mafia, but let's lynch Player Y instead"?

[hapahauli]

Early game vote run-up.

VOTE: Transcend

You have done nothing but troll and OMGUS'd twice.

L-1 by the way.

I'm only L2

I claim confirmable town that was trying to avoid a nk

Oh well

[hapahauli]

Join us on transcend, it's more realistic anyway.

[hapahauli]

Also, Eddie is mafia because he spent 2 pages playing the victim when he was called out. I shouldn't need to explain that very much. There's also a very strong association case to be made between Eddie/Transcend, but it's better to wait post-flip.

[hapahauli]

eager and SS, can you both confirm that you'll hammer Transcend if he doesn't full-claim?

[hapahauli]

Yes. One ongoing game, one completed. He was town in the completed game. Obviously cannot talk about the other one.

[hapahauli]

If you say EddieCraven's name three times in the mirror, he'll stop lurking and show up to post.

[hapahauli]

Have you ever played with me before?

[hapahauli]

Gamma?

[hapahauli]

Yeah I guess that's rude of me to pry. Regardless, I don't think I'm doing a good job of communicating why I think Eddie is mafia, so I'll go ahead and re-write things.

1) His early game has very little scumhunting, compared to the amount of effort he puts into justifying town-reads and setup speculation. He puts down votes with very little justification on SS and ThinkBig, while spending a lot of time talking about why he thinks certain players are town (Transcend), and whether or not claims are believable. This is consistent with mafia wanting to look like they're contributing without actually contributing anything to the scumhunt.

2) His defense is emotionally inconsistent. When a townie OMGUS's someone, it's generally very violent and emotionally confrontational. Very "FUCK YOU, YOU'RE MAFIA" type of mindset. I expect a lot of emotion, anger, straightforwardness, etc. EddieCane's defense just isn't consistent with this mentality.

He appeals to pity and plays the victim:

I
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70754
my only scum game on this alt. meta is bad and ur obviously gonna come back with that so idc, but u tried to read me and darkshadow off of how someone else played as scum...?

"Here's my meta, but it's totally useless, but you're going to obviously twist it in your favor waaaaaah"
darkshadow off of how someone else played as scum...?

also if im lol hammered vig/lynch the hammered

I have something very important to say before I get lynched

but

my reason for saying that is certain people in this game (transcend) like to lolhammer randomly.....

...and the above two quotes are him preparing to get lynched, despite having 2 votes on him. As I said earlier, why prepare for this stuff with only 2 votes on you, and if you think a guy is pushing a terrible case on you?

I'm not confident enough in my srs to push them. I don't sheep cases often, I make them, and I have no good one to make now. but here, watch this

I've tunneled a lot of people in my time playing mafia, and stuff like this always comes from scum.
1) He's more interested in "making a show" of defending himself than actually defending himself. He's telling everyone "hey, watch this, I'm going to post something amazing", as opposed to just posting something. Again, not consistent with a townie OMGUSing the hell out of someone.
2) He states "I have no good cases to make now", yet from here, basically makes up his mind to tunnel me with a wall of text "discrediting" my case. Not at all consistent at all with OMGUS-emotions.

[hapahauli]

Nonononono not hammering until we hear from Transcend.

[hapahauli]

Nonononono not hammering until we hear from Transcend.

Ugh, he had the chance plenty of times. He was already at L-1 this game at one point, (he claimed after the L-1 went to the L2), and he was just testing the water with that partial claim. Then, he went on and did even more naked votes before anything. He has had plenty of time to full claim. He is not town.

He's probably not town. But AFAIK there are 3rd parties in normal games.

I also want to hear from people who haven't commented on Transcend yet, or haven't been involved in the madness of the last 23 pages.

[hapahauli]

Oh oops. Well cross that theory out.

Like his play is on the one hand super anti-town, but super suicidal/weird. I've seen a lot of 3rd party roles do very outlandish things with outlandish powers. Regardless, not a concern this game.

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE:

Not a bad idea.

[hapahauli]

intent to hammer

ofc.

[hapahauli]

@ Transcend

What does that have to do with SS being confirmed mafia?

[hapahauli]

@ Transcend

What does that have to do with SS being confirmed mafia?

My role is somewhat investigative and doesn't get a guilty on miller so that's why I'm kinda wary. I don't even think he's confirmed scum hence why I'm not screaming bloody murder to lynch him.

I mean you called him confirmed mafia. Why the fuck would you do that with a role that clearly DOESN'T confirm him as mafia!?

[hapahauli]

Where did you find that info TB?

[hapahauli]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... y_Neighbor

Let's see if we can verify this with BlackVoid.

[hapahauli]

There's no way to verify Transcend's claim, since he could hypothetically "target" a "mafia buddy". The only way this works is if he targets someone who is obv-town to everyone, or successfully targets mafia and dies.

[hapahauli]

And Transcend, you're still going to have to walk me through how your role confirms or even implicates SS in any way.

[hapahauli]

But my question is if "Friendly Neighbor" can have any variations? Or do all roles in this game follow the standardized mafiascum wiki roles?

[hapahauli]

Like here's my problem:

Transcend's claim makes no sense.
"Supreme dickishness" analysis suggests that Transcend is town.

And I need to find some way to square this.

[hapahauli]

Transcend, which game is that? Was it a

Normal Game

?

[hapahauli]

Let it go TF. We dont' need to make this a personal issue until post game. Let's just try to solve what we have here.

[hapahauli]

@ Transcend

Can you link any example of a "friendly neighbor" with a PT in a

Normal Game

?

[hapahauli]

He's retracting the sub-out, not his claim I think.

[hapahauli]

I. Don't. Even.

[hapahauli]

I need a break to think. I'll be back.

[hapahauli]

If that was actually his role he should have BELIEVED the miller claim. Like oh my god, he could have confirmed if it was real or not, which makes TOTAL sense with setup spec.

Yeah.

VOTE: Transcend

[hapahauli]

I'll do another readthrough in the morning. I have some carry-over suspicions from Day 1, but I'd like to look at this thread with a clear mind. Lynching a power-role sucks, but I think there's quite a bit of information to be gleaned from the lynch.

AFAIK, there's no way for scum to have more than 1 KP, so Eddie is conf-town.

I'd also bet the house that TB and RB are town here. Both of them are extremely angry/emotional, and mafia killing lurker slots (Iaminnocent) is almost always a sign that they like the way thread sentiment is going, and want it to continue that way.

[hapahauli]

@ Everyone

Just want to verify - is there any possible way for mafia to have more than one KP at night?

@ Eager

Was your watcher clam D1 legit? What did you do last night?

[hapahauli]

Someone said that there was no 3p's in this game.

[hapahauli]

I think we're going down the wrong path here. People that are obstinate and uncooperative probably aren't the mafia. People that are lurking in the shadows likely are.

VOTE: Darkshadow64540

He has the worst vote of anyone on D1.

Wouldn't an early miller claim be ideal by scum? They get to look townie and avoid any investigation...

That said my vote is still VOTE: transcend for checking in at least twice and not giving more than a vote, you signed up to play mafia so actually get in here.
(not sure if the prior vote counted with the improper tag so here's a clean one)

He votes Transcend for what seems like very policy-esque reasons, and not because he's suspicious. Also, he throws in an attempt to discredit SS's claim without really doing anything with it. I see mafia very frequently doing these types of discrediting plays - they throw something at a wall and don't really do anything with it (and hope other people latch onto it). I feel like if his suspicion on SS was actually legitimate, he'd be much more concerned with him on D2.

I've also been pretty displeased with his contributions today. A lot of null-leaning-one-way reads, and suspicion on aronagundy that he didn't elaborate on until he was asked to do so.

[hapahauli]

Like I find it much more likely that mafia sat back and watched town eat itself alive in the Transcend chaos yesterday. If you're mafia, why would you even want to get involved in that shit when town is derp'ing so hard?

[hapahauli]

Also, someone

please

let me know if there's any way that mafia can get 2 KP in Normal Games. It plays super heavily into how I'm thinking about the game, and I need anyone more experienced on this site to confirm this.

[hapahauli]

What's bad about it?

[hapahauli]

I think we're going down the wrong path here. People that are obstinate and uncooperative probably aren't the mafia. People that are lurking in the shadows likely are.

VOTE: Darkshadow64540

He has the worst vote of anyone on D1.

Wouldn't an early miller claim be ideal by scum? They get to look townie and avoid any investigation...

That said my vote is still VOTE: transcend for checking in at least twice and not giving more than a vote, you signed up to play mafia so actually get in here.
(not sure if the prior vote counted with the improper tag so here's a clean one)

He votes Transcend for what seems like very policy-esque reasons, and not because he's suspicious. Also, he throws in an attempt to discredit SS's claim without really doing anything with it. I see mafia very frequently doing these types of discrediting plays - they throw something at a wall and don't really do anything with it (and hope other people latch onto it). I feel like if his suspicion on SS was actually legitimate, he'd be much more concerned with him on D2.

I've also been pretty displeased with his contributions today. A lot of null-leaning-one-way reads, and suspicion on aronagundy that he didn't elaborate on until he was asked to do so.

why did you not call that post out yesterday if you have such a problem with it? (if you did ignore me)

Around the time I was going to elaborate, TwoFace explained Transcend's "slip" to me. Thinking Transcend was mafia, I discounted my scumread on Darkshadow pretty heavily. It wouldn't make sense for Darkshadow to just go at his scumbuddy so hard so early on. Didn't read like a bus vote either.

Now with a bit more information, Darkshadow's vote looks far worse.

[hapahauli]

Explain why you lynched the friendly neighbor

I unvote him as soon as he claimed. I'm town, and so I expected other townies to do the same

Yet instead, you lynched him

I was super torn about it, but at the end of the day, his claim just didn't make sense.

When Transcend came back into the thread, claimed, and started flailing about, I was pretty tormented about it:

Like here's my problem:

Transcend's claim makes no sense.
"Supreme dickishness" analysis suggests that Transcend is town.

And I need to find some way to square this.

His behavior suggested town. But I could not for the life of me figure out how his claim made sense at all.

What pushed me over the edge to vote him was Boonskie's post that I quoted in my vote:

If that was actually his role he should have BELIEVED the miller claim. Like oh my god, he could have confirmed if it was real or not, which makes TOTAL sense with setup spec.

Yeah.

VOTE: Transcend

It didn't make any sense at all why he wouldn't have believed the miller claim with the role he had. I thought he had to be lying about the claim. On top of this was the "I think SS is confirmed mafia, but let's lynch someone else" stuff.

With all that in my mind, I voted him. I regret making that decision as quickly as I did in retrospect, and I didn't expect him to self-hammer.

[hapahauli]

I'm not sure why people think my vote is "unexplained". You can very clearly see by the questions I'm asking in my filter, as well as the posts I'm quoting what bothered me about Transcend's claim and why I couldn't make sense of it.

Honestly, I still can't figure out the "SS is confirmed mafia" stuff. I was obviously wrong about it, and my mistake was not giving myself more time to think about it.

[hapahauli]

Also, someone

please

let me know if there's any way that mafia can get 2 KP in Normal Games. It plays super heavily into how I'm thinking about the game, and I need anyone more experienced on this site to confirm this.

We have a claimed vig

No shit. I'm trying to figure out if he's conf-town, or if there's a possible mafia fake claim.

[hapahauli]

I'll answer whatever questions I have to about my vote on Transcend.

But I also want feedback on Darkshadow. I think he's our best chance at hitting mafia today.

[hapahauli]

According to the wiki... no?

Roles which are explicitly Normal for any alignment include:
Bodyguard, Commuter, Sane Cop, Doctor, Follower, Gunsmith,

Jack of All Trades

, Jailkeeper, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Roleblocker, Rolecop, Rolestopper, Tracker, Universal Backup, Vanilla Cop, Voyeur, Watcher

Again though, that's why I want to hear someone with more setup experience give their input.

[hapahauli]

I wanna lynch arona tbh

Eh. I understand why she looks bad, but I think Darkshadow looks worse. Aarona doesn't look like she's trying to blend in, and there's some stuff that reads genuine in her filter. I also really don't like Darkshadow's push on that slot.

[hapahauli]

Actually never mind on the genuine stuff. I think the stuff I was reading is NAI, and I'm conf-biasing on DarkShadow.

The more I look at it, the more I wouldn't mind lynching either of them. I just doubt they're mafia together.

[hapahauli]

anyways, I think we should mass claim now. any thoughts?

ftr iirc I've never mass claimed d1 but the relevant pr is gone and I really think we need to investigate eagle's claim. I don't think mass claiming today has any issue, with the catch that any protective role should probably claim vt.... so I guess I want a partial mass claim?

I tend to dislike mass-claims on earlier days. I find it more often leads to chaos, especially since we have very little experience with how BlackVoid sets up his games. I also don't think we're lacking for information given the madness at the end of the day yesterday.

[hapahauli]

Wouldn't an early miller claim be ideal by scum? They get to look townie and avoid any investigation...

That said my vote is still VOTE: transcend for checking in at least twice and not giving more than a vote, you signed up to play mafia so actually get in here.
(not sure if the prior vote counted with the improper tag so here's a clean one)

He votes Transcend for what seems like very policy-esque reasons, and not because he's suspicious. Also, he throws in an attempt to discredit SS's claim without really doing anything with it. I see mafia very frequently doing these types of discrediting plays - they throw something at a wall and don't really do anything with it (and hope other people latch onto it). I feel like if his suspicion on SS was actually legitimate, he'd be much more concerned with him on D2.

I've also been pretty displeased with his contributions today. A lot of null-leaning-one-way reads, and suspicion on aronagundy that he didn't elaborate on until he was asked to do so.

And how exactly was my vote on him bad? Up until that point Transcend had posted nothing but 3 naked votes, after the vote he then instead of posting normally he proceeded to dump a pile of shitposts into the thread. How exactly is this town behavior? Yeah, I admit missing checking in on the 29th and the thread was locked due to a rushed lynch by time I logged in on the 30th, I know that doesn't exactly look good.

As far as the miller claim, if it's not listed in the game's setup I will ALWAYS be suspect of millers.

You say the claim is convenient for mafia to make, but never really make an attempt to determine SS's alignment. Stuff like that reads like you're discrediting him, rather than actually trying to figure out his alignment.

What do you think about SS anyway?

[hapahauli]

UNVOTE:

vt

Catching up

[hapahauli]

VOTE: arona

I would very confidently ship Aarona/Something_Smart as a mafia team here. 3rd is probably horror? But that's mostly POE.

I don't think the super active emotional players on the Transcend lynch (and that have been bickering today) are mafia. With EC and Dark being confirmed, that leaves 3.

I'll answer whatever questions I need to. But Lynching into this pool is definitely the way to go. If I need to be lynched somewhere in between those names, so be it.

--------------------

Darkshadow layed out why arona's likely mafia for his day 1. I know I "disagreed" with his case before, but with the tunnel vision goggles off, it makes a lot more sense. A lot of useless contributions, not a lot of sticking-her-neck-out.

SS's play is pretty similar, and I'd look to his treatment of EddieCane on Day 1 for why he's mafia. He's very reluctant to provide reasons for why EC is mafia. Instead, he spends time criticizing the other person pushing EC's as mafia (myself) while doing very little other than posting "I want to see more votes on EC". It's consistent with scum trying to shit on other people's contributions without providing anything themselves.

viewtopic.php?p=9051541#p9051541
Would totally ship this post as an association case as well.
SS lists his lynch preference order as:

<hapahauli, aronagrundy, eagerSnake, horrordude0215> in preference order.

He's suspicions of arona, but has never talked about him in his filter until this point. He spends this entire post justifying suspicion against myself and EagerSnake, conveniently avoiding arona (despite him being the #2 lynch preference, and despite him being heavily implicated in an association case with me).

[hapahauli]

This is why I hate the mass-claim stuff. It's not clear what information we've even gained from outing everyone's role.

[hapahauli]

Horror, you lack nuance. You're selectively taking my posts that "look bad", when everything I did is very clearly explained in my filter.

Also, just because I read someone as mafia in the moment doesn't mean that everything they post is bad. I thought Transcend was mafia. I didn't want him to get INSTAHAMMERED. What is difficult about this to understand?

[hapahauli]

The miller claim makes a lot of sense from the claims. I think horrordude is probably a scum neighbor based. If he is town, then this set up is ridiculously town sided.

No watcher has claimed and thus snake maybe just a named townie.

or snake is a scum watcher. which would make sense in the setup as they could watch their partners to catch the vig or the cop. And also @TB if you think horrordude is a scum neighborizer, why wouldn't he just kill Boon since he obviously picked up on the crumbs?

VOTE: hapahauli this is still scum. 1303 reads very much like scum generating BS reason for reads. Writing off the emotional players on the Transcend wagon as town, then "taking tunnel vision goggles off", which is not really how tunneling works-- you can't just decide to stop tunneling, and his admission of being wrong on Dark reads as a "drat, now I can't mislynch them" more than anything.

He's also accusing me for being reluctant to provide reasons to vote Eddie, which is false, because nobody asked for them. (I gave a summary in 579 and then the Transcend crap got started and it was dropped.) And I'm scum trying to shit on other people's contributions because I disliked one case on one player (yet, I was still pushing the player).

1) You were reluctant to give reasons for Eddie. You only elaborated about them in #579

when Eddie asked for them

, and not of your own volition.
2) A lot of the stuff you're accusing me of being scummy for, you've done yourself (or even worse in most cases). You think I'm scummy because I've pushed cases on two townies. Not only is being wrong non-alignment indiciative, but you very clearly have sympathy for my viewpoints in your filter, given that you were pushing Eddie, and:

And if someone self hammers and prays the scum team will win, I have no qualms with their lynch or their death

This. That lynch was nobody's fault but Transcend's.

Can I get a second opinion on Boonskiies?

He's town

... so it looks a lot like you're blaming the lynch on Transcend when it's convenient for you (pushing me as a scumread) rather that actually thinking that.

[hapahauli]

Also, just because I read someone as mafia in the moment doesn't mean that everything they post is bad. I thought Transcend was mafia. I didn't want him to get INSTAHAMMERED. What is difficult about this to understand?

Instahammers are basically scumclaims. Transcend hadn't brought up the self-hammering at that point iirc. Removing him from L-1 means that he doesn't have to claim. This is bullshit.

Instant hammers are definitely not scumclaims. I'd be amazed if you haven't seen a townie hammer someone in a nonsensical spot give your experience with this game.

And removing him from L-1 absolutely doesn't do anything, when it's

very clear

that I intend to vote him, and the town has repeatedly been telling him to claim for like 15 pages.

Why are you ignoring all the context? My play makes perfect sense when you look at what's going on in the thread at the time I'm making these posts.

What was the point of giving intent?

To make him claim? As with Mr. Horror above, if you read anything involving the context of this post, it should be stupidly clear what the purpose of my intent to hammer was.

[hapahauli]

ThinkBig, do you have links to any other games that BV has hosted on your home site?

If we're doing the setup-spec nonsense, we may as well do it right.

[hapahauli]

Also, just because I read someone as mafia in the moment doesn't mean that everything they post is bad. I thought Transcend was mafia. I didn't want him to get INSTAHAMMERED. What is difficult about this to understand?

Instahammers are basically scumclaims. Transcend hadn't brought up the self-hammering at that point iirc. Removing him from L-1 means that he doesn't have to claim. This is bullshit.

Instant hammers are definitely not scumclaims. I'd be amazed if you haven't seen a townie hammer someone in a nonsensical spot give your experience with this game.

I have seen instahammers from town. I have also seen that person be lynched the next day virtually every single time because of it. There is almost no protown reason to instahammer.

Ok. Then you're admitting that this entire line of argument is complete bullshit?

If townies can hammer in this spot, then my reasons for removing my vote are valid. Plain and simple.

[hapahauli]

I have seen instahammers from town.

it doesn't mean that there is any reason to expect anyone in this game would instahammer.

r u 4 rela

[hapahauli]

I'm going to need a lobotomy after this game.

[hapahauli]

Horror, who on this player list have you played with before?

[hapahauli]

Mine? I've only played 2:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=70148
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=70520

[hapahauli]

ThinkBig, do you have links to any other games that BV has hosted on your home site?

If we're doing the setup-spec nonsense, we may as well do it right.

Just got a message from the mod asking me not to post offsite links.

Can you post offsite setups? Or game information?

[hapahauli]

I've seen ThinkBig play scum twice, and in both other games, he was super lurky and inactive.

[hapahauli]

okay. after a very short review of thinks linked games he can be town for now. hapa's don't help much, scum meta seems similar to town.

I mean... in both my scumgames, I basically prod-dodged. I can make pretty posts as mafia, but I really never keep up with the game beyond a certain point.

[hapahauli]

Horror, who on this player list have you played with before?

Eddie is the only one I have a completed game with.

So if you don't know anyone here, how can you draw the conclusion that this town is not likely to quickhammer?

[hapahauli]

Hapu, RB, and arona by POE seem to be scum then...With the side chance of Eager lying about Watcher, or town watcher I should add.

I'm not understanding the POE analysis here. Is it just that we're the claimed VTs?

[hapahauli]

@ Horror - or another thing... how can you make claims about what Transcend is and isn't likely to do at L-1 without having played with him?

[hapahauli]

Horror, who on this player list have you played with before?

Eddie is the only one I have a completed game with.

So if you don't know anyone here, how can you draw the conclusion that this town is not likely to quickhammer?

Because this has been one of the most in depth and active playerlists I've ever played in. Based on the posts in thread, I can't list a single person that I think would be likely to quickhammer.

In case you need a simpler explanation: I don't need 5 games of meta with each player to know they're not stupid enough to lolhammer someone D1 without a claim.

I'll give you active. But Active doesn't = sane or smart.

How are you reaching the conclusion about in-depth? It's like we're reading two different games if that's what you think about the town.

[hapahauli]

No guys, we're one of the most in-depth towns on mafiascum ever.

[hapahauli]

Rip me.

I have a huge propensity to OMGUS, but I legitimately don't know how you can say what horror is saying if you actually read the thread.

Also, he's repeatedly calling me dumb, which makes very little sense if he thinks I'm mafia. I should be scummy and pushing an agenda. Dumb implies that I'm town.

[hapahauli]

Okay fine, prove me wrong. Tell me who you were so terrified was going to swoop in and instahammer Transcend without giving him a chance to claim or defend himself at all.

1) The "burden of proof" isn't on me here.
2) I've played with three players on this list. ThinkBig, Transcend, and TwoFace. From my perspective, literally anyone else could be dumb enough to hammer quickly.

[hapahauli]

@ Horror.

Of course.

I am familiar with 3 of the 12 other players in this game. Faced with 9 unknowns, I don't assume that every single one is competent enough to not quickhammer. And nothing about that D1 struck me as "oh man, this town is super rational and calm and definitely WONT do anything stupid." If you read the thread, you should conclude the town was behaving the

exact opposite

.

Like honestly, does arona's filter strike you as someone cautious enough not to quickhammer? Or Something_Smart (to that point, he had posted almost nothing of substance)? RB was generally being wild and crazy, and was not defending Transcend when I posted what I did.

I legitimately don't know how you hold these opinions if you actually read the thread as you claimed.

[hapahauli]

I'm not suspicious of you because of that SS. I'm merely making a point, that there's no reason to think that that someone can't waltz in and do some dumb early hammer on Transcend.

[hapahauli]

Apparently I'm the only person on this site that has never quickhammered.

Like honestly, does arona's filter strike you as someone cautious enough not to quickhammer? Or Something_Smart (to that point, he had posted almost nothing of substance)? RB was generally being wild and crazy, and was not defending Transcend when I posted what I did.

I legitimately don't know how you hold these opinions if you actually read the thread as you claimed.

You can't justify that any of those people would quickhammer

as town

.

I'm done with this back and forth.

Absolutely I can.

And we're not done, because I need to find out what why you're thinking what you are.

Because the reasons you are pushing me boil down to that you looked at the

chaotic mess

that was D1, and

assumed that every townie was competent enough not to quickhammer.

And I need to figure out if you are absolutely batshit retarded, or are trying to desperately push a mislynch.

[hapahauli]

Did you actually carefully read all 30 pages of the game? Be honest.

[hapahauli]

What does the neighborhood even do to help scumhunting?

[hapahauli]

Also Boon, talk to me about this PoE thing.

[hapahauli]

If you thought that Transcend being at L-1 was such a horrible thing because "Oh no! Someone may come in and quickhammer him!", then you should have jumped on eager's case when he did the same thing

the very next post

and say that?

Instead, you just state an intent to hammer and move on. Your defense right now makes absolutely no sense considering the context with which you handled yourself Day 1.

So what?

I liked the situation where Transcend was at L-1, and I had made it abundantly clear to everyone in the thread that I was ready to quick hammer. That's a situation where I know I'm in control, everyone knows that Transcend can be hammered, and that other townies will be less incentivized to do the quick hammer themselves.

That is far better than a situation where Transcend is at L-1 with my vote, and no one had given intent to hammer. For all I know, some random person walks in and quickhammers and poof day is done.

And finally, please don't use the R word with me, certainly not as an attempted insult. It's ridiculously offensive and completely unnecessary.

Sorry. Will not do that again.

[hapahauli]

What does the neighborhood even do to help scumhunting?

...seriously? It can form a townbloc when used correctly, or help get reads on people that you haven't fully sorted yet. You can't actually imply that the role isn't beneficial to scum hunting.

I'm serious. Town-circles working assume a) A very high degree of town competency and b) lack of infiltration from mafia. Also, "getting reads" can be done in public thread. I don't know if I've ever seen a town-bloc work successfully in all the years I've played this game.

Did you actually carefully read all 30 pages of the game? Be honest.

No, I just pulled a wall of text out of my ass when I replaced in Day 1.

That's what I was thinking TBH.

[hapahauli]

Alright, so let's lynch arona.

[hapahauli]

Also horror, are you a normal neighborizer, or do you have any modifiers? (Weak, 1-shot, etc)?

[hapahauli]

Just in general, I think information out of the public eye is pretty worthless. For example, you can look at the "Neighbor-themed" games in which townies have PT's with other random players. Town has an abysmal winrate in those games, mostly because people think the PT's are more useful than they actually are.

[hapahauli]

I say we never lynch on-wagon unless we decide Darkshadow is godfather or something.

That wagon is very likely town given how emotional, quick, chaotic, and active it was. In such a situation, don't you think it's more likely that mafia hides in the shadows?

[hapahauli]

Two things Horror:

1) I'd still like you to address #1423.
2) Who are your other scumreads? Even if you think I'm conf-scum, there are still two scumbuddies to find. I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on arona and SS.

[hapahauli]

@ Horror

I'll take a temporary peace treaty. I'd rather be lynching elsewhere regardless. Glad you atleast see where I'm coming from regarding SS/aron

Just in general, I think information out of the public eye is pretty worthless. For example, you can look at the "Neighbor-themed" games in which townies have PT's with other random players. Town has an abysmal winrate in those games, mostly because people think the PT's are more useful than they actually are.

This is only relevant to pre made neighborhoods. Neighborizer gets to pick who's in it, and can choose people they want to work with.

My general point is that people tend to overestimate the usefulness of private information. I'll concede that both situations are different.

The whole argument is sort of moot though.

[hapahauli]

Anyone have a link to some of RB's scum games? I need to go ahead and resolve this in my mind once and for all.

[hapahauli]

...
I'm confident hap is scum. Maybe I'm just a narcissist, but what stuck out to me was that his reads on me are inconsistent. He goes from scumreading me d1 to leaning town on me d2 and then votes me.

Tb struck me as the most eager to go after Transcend. logically I figure that scum wouldn't want to push transcend to claim so early since they wouldn't actually be expecting to lynch in 2 days and would want everyone to continue scumreading a pr.

rb reads as town to me but it would make sense if he was scum defending transcend.

VOTE: hapahauli

I don't know what I expected, but I expected more than "hey, I'm confident this guy is mafia because he changed his mind on me".

Actually thinking about it, if scum was expecting the transcend wagon to dissipate, I can see more than one scum being on it. But not all. One of rb/ss is scum.

If one of RB/SS must be mafia, why aren't you voting there? It doesn't read as very genuine that you think about the game in this way, and have spent zero effort trying to sort this out.

[hapahauli]

no way we have cop + watcher + weak fn btw

A lot of this depends on scum-roles, no?

[hapahauli]

Is RB scum capable of this activity and vitriol? If so, does anyone have a link to a scumgame that's similar?

[hapahauli]

Do you actually think I might be bussing hapa?

...yes?

How? Hapa was getting no pressure before I voted him... (Not to mention our interactions regarding Eddie yesterday, which would be ridiculous for scum to fake)

You were most definetely not the first person suspicious of me this game.

[hapahauli]

EagerSnake and Darkshadow clearly pressured me before you.

Why are you claiming credit for things that clearly aren't true and are easily verifiable?

[hapahauli]

GG scum, especially Boon. Very impressive for mafia to jump into that town v town shitfight like that.

[hapahauli]

Also, it doesn't matter if you know the scum team if you're dead or nobody believes you. It's why we were happy with the finally 7 of us that went into this. I had a big case for TB/RB/eager ready if I needed it, and we only needed Dark to vote with us instead of against us. Hapa dying actually made it a lot tougher on us.

QFT.

There's not a lot of pride to take in correct reads when you're dead or end-gamed.

Mafia is a team game. It should be super obvious who had better teamwork. Read the scum QT. Then read the shit-fighting in the thread. Town lost this game on atmosphere, and all this post game "I was so close to figuring it out" really misses the point.