Mini 1894: DBZ Abridged Mafia - Arrival To Namek (Game Over)

[Not Chara]

just in case anyone suggests it again.

we are not massclaiming. and we have one night of flips, one claim, and plenty of time. so do not assume things we don't know about the setup.

pedit: you know what, you probably did. i'll read it when i get home, i guess?

[Tywin Lannister]

That's assuming that it's a vig that'll listen to you, or an SK that will make that play.

Ok, then regardless, there's a scum buddy or two out there. The fact that both parties don't want to budge says a lot.

Either ABR/NC/Desp are SvT or TvT.

If TvT, then they're blinded by their tunnel and wont stop until we all lose.
If it's SvT, then they're blinded by their tunnel too. Difference is scum don't want their buddy lynched, and town won't look for the buddy because they've pinpointed scum.

Meanwhile, I'm over here ignoring it all and going after the scum buddy. The TvT or SvT issue can be solved another day, and NKs help narrow things down. If it's SvT, scum fuck themselves after it narrows down to them VS Town bloc. If SvT and they shoot the town bloc, then they fuck themselves by showing they were trying to lynch town.

The optimal play is to make scum fuck themselves here, and the way to do it is to lynch their scum buddies first.

[Tywin Lannister]

Anyone disagreeing is inherently either scum or so blinded that they're compromising the game IMO.

[Almost50]

@ABR:

What worries me IS that you're well aware of your meta. You're no noob to this game. You could very well change and adapt. That's why I'm not 100% sure you're Town here.

@NC:

I didn't get the "no massclaim when we have so many mislynches left"!!! I thought the whole purpose of a massclaim is to minimize the pool of said mislynches.

I'm indifferent to massclaiming myself, but I'll just say this:

[Not Chara]

Anyone disagreeing is inherently either scum or so blinded that they're compromising the game IMO.

you are blinded by your ego and incapable of the simplest form of seeing the point of view of others. you're also incapable of reading that i'm happy to lynch Alisae after arguing for my own position down to the bone.
there are two players we're still waiting on here.

[Not Chara]

I didn't get the "no massclaim when we have so many mislynches left"!!! I thought the whole purpose of a massclaim is to minimize the pool of said mislynches.

can i ask you to trust my judgement instead?

[Albert B. Rampage]

@ABR:What worries me IS that you're well aware of your meta. You're no noob to this game. You could very well change and adapt. That's why I'm not 100% sure you're Town here.

I'm well aware of that. That wasn't my question. I asked, if you would characterize my play as town as manipulative or not. NC thinks it's a scumtell, it's easily proven to be a historical null tell and playstyle choice.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Agreed with NC, mass claim on Day 2 when we're winning is idiotic and scum-driven.

[Not Chara]

oh, ABR, i know how you can help me.

do you have any games where you were lynched as scum in a time that wasn't lylo? if they're older than three years, i'm not interested.

[Not Chara]

Agreed with NC, mass claim on Day 2 when we're winning is idiotic and scum-driven.

this is just correct, yes.

[Almost50]

A50 explain to them the difference between my town and scum game please.

I'm not an expert in your play, mate, but I'd say you lurk a lot when you're Scum. You hardly said a word in the main thread in FA's abandoned game.

Would you say I am manipulative as town?

Hmmm.. probably not, but I haven't played THAT many times with you. I mean, what's wrong with being manipulative as Town anyway?

Anyway, I suspect someone here is not playing optimally. I have no proof of it though, so I'm for lynching outside of ABR/NC/Socrates/Tywin today. I don't fancy a lynch on Clumsy/Zef/Desp either, so it's Alisae/Vifam for the lynch today for me. A massclaim may change all that tbh, but I won't do it unless we all agree (unanimously, not simple majority)

[Almost50]

@Chara: Off the top of my head.. ABR was in a hydra in Gistou and they were 3P but Town-aligned (eventually did win with the Town). He also lurked it out for most of the game while they were alive. He was super active in Bloodbourne though, so I think his level of activity here is NAI.

[Almost50]

Also, you know better than to try an meta someone of this caliber. Hell, you know better than to try and meta ME (and I'm NOT of that caliber). Once you know a player is well aware of their meta then the whole meta argument becomes null.

Now drop the meta and expand your horizon to see the possibilities. Town!ABR is a menace to scum (mafia or SK). Mafia!ABR is a prime NK target for the SK. SK!ABR is the one to get hit next by Scum. No way ABR makes it to LyLo as EITHER alignment.

[Tywin Lannister]

Tywin, your blanket statements about the players you view as disagreeing with you are detrimental to actual discussion.
i'm literally tunneling so well that ABR complimented me for the sheer enjoyment of it.

if we've heard from zefiend and Vifam's replacement, and nothing has changed, i'll lynch Alisae.

pedit: yes, exactly. everyone keeps assuming the night actions will continue to help just because we were lucky enough to get a Majiffy shot.
scum have power roles, remember? those still exist.

Disclaimer: All of this also applies to ABR, but since I know more about NC's meta, I expect more from them. Regardless, this applies to both NC and ABR even if I mention just NC at times.

NC, you're not building a good case and don't have one. At this point, you're just whining. Stop. Focus. Pay attention. I don't AGREE with your point of view. That doesn't mean I don't understand it. I just think you're wrong. You haven't given a convincing case, won't look elsewhere, and there needs to be a hypothetical 'what if' aspect assuming ABR is town too. As it stands, you're playing like Titus. You're better than this.

I'm all for a mass claim to solve this petty bs. I'm tired of looking at it tbh.

Mass claim acceptors: Socrates, Desperado, Tywin, Almost

Anymore takers? Maybe we lynch ABR/NC and shoot the other for refusing. I made my case why it was bad earlier, but now that there's a clear bloc of two sides and all refuse to leave their tunnel, I'm more than okay with forcing the issue. This gets solved by either a third party vote, a lynch one/shoot the other option, or by a mass claim. Take your pick. If everyone agrees except ABR/NC, then we lynch one and shoot the other. Problem solved. If it's TvT, then we lost cuz of them anyway. If it's SvT, then a 1 for 1 trade is good for town. If it's SvS theater, then we win. Easy stuff.. It seems the towniest players want the massclaim at this point, and it's everyone on the sideline of this 1v1. Neither of you have a good case. It sucks and frankly, you're both anti-town by doing it. There's more scum out there and none of you care to look for them.

So massclaim, or we lynch/shoot you both. Which one? Best thing for town is the second option. The town player should always be okay with sacrificing themselves for a 1 for 1. How strongly do either of you believe the other is scum? This is simple stuff. Easy solution.

So... Which one to lynch and which to shoot? The ONLY way this backfires is if it's TvT, and in that case, both ABR and NC are too blinded atm.

So that's your choice NC/ABR, but if you refuse to even acknowledge other possibilities other than 'this player is 100% scum cuz their meta and cuz manupulative in a game based entirely around manipulation,' then forcing the issue means one gets lynched and the other shot. Mass claim is the only way to avoid that if you won't consider a third party lynch. If it's TvT, we are fucked, but that's your problem. If it's SvS (great show then guys, props), then you lose yay for town. If it's SvT, then 1 for 1 is ALWAYS in town's favor. So which one of you disagree?

[TheRealGin-N-Tonic]

Getting a replacement for Vifam, fam.

Mobile post so can't do the the replace queue yet but will do once I can.

[Tywin Lannister]

To put it plainly: D1 I suggested lynching me if it meant Majiffy got lynched/shot after my flip. That's what tunneling town who are certain of their read say if they're getting nowhere on the push. It's not optimal, but a 1 for 1 is still a win for town. Which of ABR/NC is this confident the other is scum? Inherently, NC's defense of Desp ties them together, so this boils down to a 1v1 between NC/ABR. Whose willing to step up and agree to being shot after their SR is lynched? Which one of you wants it bad enough?


@Almost:

is it possible these two would pull scum theater of the century to bus one and clear the other? If this was true, the primary goal would be ABR get his lynch, then we possibly lynch ABR, and NC is cleared. Otherwise, we lynch neither and whoever flips first clears the other. It's a huge gamble to do it, but after Majiffy died N1, is it something they'd possibly do?

Also, if not, do you see this as a TvT or SvT?

IF SvT: which player would you lean on as the town player? NC? I have my doubts about both, although the case on ABR is more than anything brought up against NC. It's all weak though.

[Tywin Lannister]

Based on VCA and PoE alone, ABR is the correct lynch. Meta doesn't work since both are good players. They know their own meta. While neither specifically say they're against another lynch, they don't want it. So something has to break here if nobody bends. Massclaim is bending. Neither want it. Third party vote is bending. Neither really want it. Lynch one/shoot other breaks the stalemate. My $0.02

[Not Chara]

how many times do i have to say i'll lynch Alisae if we hear from zefiend/Vifam's replacement, Tywin, before you read it?

if ABR flips town, shoot me. sure.

Almost: i was asking for meta on ABR getting lynched because i wanted to figure out how to do it. it was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, i'm not the type of player to read other games or lean on meta and i don't plan on starting now.

on massclaim: i'd rather quicklynch Alisae right now, zefiend and replacement Vifam be damned, than massclaim.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm not confident that NC is scum. I agree with the majorit of his key insights, like his analysis on Clumsy which changed my mind, or his opinion on massclaim which we agree on. Desperado, I am highly confident is scum. Just look at his play. He doesn't do anything. There has been no progression in his reads, the reason they are frozen in time is because he's scum. If NC is town, Desperado is salivating at the thought of us two dying. I will never allow it.

[Not Chara]

actually, i change my mind. i didn't really mean it in the first place, but shooting me for being wrong doesn't help anything. i'm back to wishing Desperado was dead. vigging him would be nice.

[Desperado]

if you're against mass claim and you want me dead you should just be lynching me then

it doesn't make any sense to force another claim

[Almost50]

@Tywin: No. I definitely don't think this is scum theatre AT ALL. Moreover, if it's TvS then I don't know which is the Scum in the two, as I'm currently 95% confident in my individual reads on them. That means I'm 95% confident NC is Town, and 95% confident ABR is Town, so simple math dictates I'm 90.25% confident BOTH are Town (i.e. TvT).

Also them both not wanting a massclaim still (after I had pointed out someone might be playing less than optimally) totally destroys the theory I had been suspecting might be the case, and leaves me leaning towards another theory that necessitates both to be Town.

@ABR: Ok.. same question Tywin asked, but regarding Desperado. You say you ARE highly confident in him flipping scum, so would you be willing to get shot over that one? In other words, we lynch Desperado and if he flips Town you get shot tonight. If not, you and only you eat rope tomorrow?

[Not Chara]

Almost: i think i asked you why ABR is town. you said he was town by play, and you're incredibly confident, but could you go into it? i can't rewire my thinking if players only have arguments for why ABR is

null

.

[Not Chara]

if you're against mass claim and you want me dead you should just be lynching me then

it doesn't make any sense to force another claim

oh, believe me Desperado, i'm rapidly getting over wanting to keep you alive. at this point i don't want to back down on it due to pride. (and because really, i still think you're town)
but you haven't tried scumhunting since the beginning of the day.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Listen to me carefully, there is no scenario under which I think shooting me for being wrong benefits town. There is the possibility of Zefiend, NC, Vifam or Alisae being scum. However, the optimal lynch today is desperado and I will not deviate.