Matrix6 BP fix
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Meaning too weak in Tracker setups which would still suck but way too strong in a swingy way in roleblocker setups. I very strongly believe that the roleblocker should have to make a choice of targets.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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Here's what I've been working on:
Matrix6 Column A Column B Column C Row 1 Town Jailkeeper1-Shot BulletproofMafia EncryptorRow 2 Mafia RoleblockerTown CopTown DoctorRow 3 Town Vanilla CopMafia Role CopTown TrackerLast edited by RadiantCowbells on Mon May 01, 2017 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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It gets rid of the potential for a safe way to claim a protected tracker and therefore neuters the bulletproof claim strategy. It may still happen but since we're no longer dealing with single PR setups it no longer advantages town. The only like high depth role is Vanilla Cop and while there are replacements I think it adds fantastic depth with its placement. Balance (while I can't adequately predict how encryptor will influence things) should be better than in the original matrix 6.
On principle I think it's dumb that scum has very little information most of the time in Matrix 6 and I think each setup should be goon/X to make scum more informed.
I explicitly don't like having situations where a PR may or may not exist in newbie games and I think having a consistent 2 PRs per games makes for a better newbie experience.
Cop/goon/goon and jk/goon/goon are extremely swingy and I think the focus should be on giving newbies the best experience rather than the more experienced feeling better about forcing people to deal with situations where a role may or may not exist.
Anything else I can address!
I plan to go setup by setup and explain why I like all six of them but not now.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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Row 3 is fine and I think your setup is significantly worse becauseIn post 187, -Grey- wrote:
Row three is toxic to scum.In post 157, RadiantCowbells wrote:Here's what I've been working on:
Matrix6 Column A Column B Column C Row 1 Town Jailkeeper1-Shot BulletproofMafia EncryptorRow 2 Mafia RoleblockerTown CopTown DoctorRow 3 Town Vanilla CopMafia Role CopTown Tracker
I propose:
Matrix6 Column A Column B Column C Row 1 Town Neapolitan1-Shot BulletproofMafia DoctorRow 2 Mafia RoleblockerTown CopTown DoctorRow 3 Town JailkeeperMafia Role CopTown Tracker
With no ability to be protected and simultaneously able to use their ability, the vanilla cop's results should be a little more useful, hence Neapolitan.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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row 1 is broken, first of all.
second of all, 1-shot bulletproof claiming is absolutely going to be a thing in that setup because you're confirmed town and you prevent investigates on you (it's beneficial in column B in mine but bad in row 1 in mine)
so it doesn't fix the problem we're trying to fix2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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luv it's never been about the claim strategy. it's not the moderator's place to tell the players how to play a game within the bounds that are set ever: and setting the bounds to exclude a claim strat is way gross.In post 317, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
I can sympathize if people actual had data to back it up being worth the negative effects. I've yet to been informed of that information and I'm inclined to believe people are worried about win rates until otherwise. I understand the accepted way is to replace the role but I don't see that being feasibly done as evident by this thread.In post 311, mhsmith0 wrote:As one of the only people posting in this thread who actually mods newbie games, I can say that, beyond the simple fact that trying to moderate player behavior in the way that LUV suggests is obnoxious to the players, it is EVEN MORE obnoxious to the person actually moderating the game. The way to fix behavior around a "broken" setup (and I still hold that there are substantial antitown effects of the strategy as currently pursued, as well as the fact that it makes a fake doctor claim MUCH more doable for scum) is to change the setup. Trying to mandate that trying to break a setup is a force-replacement or mod-kill offense is the sort of idea that would fairly rapidly lead to no experienced players wanting to play in that setup as well as no experienced moderators wanting to mod that setup.
I don't agree with the latter at all. If people aren't willing to compromise their style of scum hunting just a little more for the greater good than we will have bigger problems. I can't speak on how mods would feel but as a player, I think most would agree with me that going on strike against the queue because you can't use this strategy says more about the person than my posts in this thread ever will.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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Trust telling is totally justified in being outside the bounds of the game because if everyone did it there would be no game of mafia to be played. Everyone doing the BP claim strategy only slightly changes the nature of a mafia game.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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[Blanked out stuff that may potentially be ongoing games blocked]
I would not play any game that had a rule against shitposting because I think it would end up ruining the game.Last edited by RadiantCowbells on Wed May 03, 2017 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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I mean it's okay but it doesn't fix a lot of the bad aspects of Matrix6 and I still don't like the universal backup idea. I don't think it's good to have both PRs guaranteed to end up doing nothing if both are outed D1.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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I don't think that we should do anything besides try to get the winrate as close to 50% as possible. Running setups that will end in 40% winrates is not pleasant for 7/9 of people most games.In post 328, Titus wrote:
That's what should happen. Town should be punished for bad play.In post 327, RadiantCowbells wrote:I mean it's okay but it doesn't fix a lot of the bad aspects of Matrix6 and I still don't like the universal backup idea. I don't think it's good to have both PRs guaranteed to end up doing nothing if both are outed D1.
This is a newbie queue. Too many mods lately are trying to force town wins because town do dumb things. A setup should not be auto loss if town do dumb things, but it shouldn't protect town from being dumb either and say it's ok to make dumb errors.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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I would love to see examples because in general most of the games that I see are scumsided: then again my eye is for 50/50 balance and since you seem to prefer games that aren't 50/50 balanced I am probably part of the problem in your eyes.In post 332, Titus wrote:
YesIn post 331, mhsmith0 wrote:I think Titus means that mods are overpowering towns and "forcing" town wins through sheer weight of town power compared to numbers and scum power. Admittedly I could be wrong tho.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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Playing games as town where the deck is heavily stacked against you is not my idea of fun.In post 343, rb wrote:
You're assuming the only thing fun about mafia is winningIn post 333, RadiantCowbells wrote:
I don't think that we should do anything besides try to get the winrate as close to 50% as possible. Running setups that will end in 40% winrates is not pleasant for 7/9 of people most games.In post 328, Titus wrote:
That's what should happen. Town should be punished for bad play.In post 327, RadiantCowbells wrote:I mean it's okay but it doesn't fix a lot of the bad aspects of Matrix6 and I still don't like the universal backup idea. I don't think it's good to have both PRs guaranteed to end up doing nothing if both are outed D1.
This is a newbie queue. Too many mods lately are trying to force town wins because town do dumb things. A setup should not be auto loss if town do dumb things, but it shouldn't protect town from being dumb either and say it's ok to make dumb errors.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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Open games frequently have claim strategies. EpicMafia is built off of claim strategies. Acting like this is ruining the site is disgraceful.In post 380, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
I rather the site give off that impression than the one current site meta is giving off now.In post 379, Ankamius wrote:Having a rule where people are outright not allowed to do a specific action that a player can reasonably decide to make while still playing to their win condition is frankly ridiculous. It gives a horrible impression of the site as one that can't balance their own setups.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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I am bumping this.In post 157, RadiantCowbells wrote:Here's what I've been working on:
Matrix6 Column A Column B Column C Row 1 Town Jailkeeper1-Shot BulletproofMafia GoonRow 2 Mafia RoleblockerTown CopTown DoctorRow 3 Town Vanilla CopMafia Role CopTown Tracker2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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Cop adds more power because it can clear people so it's okay to have that attendant riskIn post 493, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:
how is that different from a diagonal outing in {jk/cop}/vt/goonIn post 491, RadiantCowbells wrote:I strongly do not support the Backup idea because it leaves town with absolutely no power if both of their PRs get outed.
Jailkeeper can still get an action off if they're being shot at.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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I think a lot of people making suggestions don't understand that the setups are currently scumsided and that part of reworking the newbie queue should be to make more townsided setups.
So many of the suggestions have basically boiled down to 'lets nerf towns'2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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No man please stop. Playing 50/50 setups as scum does not feel at all miserable. There's this strawman here where getting a 50% winrate requires making setups have too much town power.In post 560, Zachrulez wrote:What are the exact win rates? Getting to 50/50 is probably way too idealistic without making the games complete misery for scum. Keep in mind that F11 with it's scumsided winrate was considered balanced enough to play for years.
Cop/Doc/Roleblocker is about 50/50. Tracker/Doctor is about 50/50. Tracker/Doctor only started feeling bad in recent days because the Tracker claiming day 1 makes it a lot harder.
Neither of them have disproportionate amounts of town power.
You know what does feel miserable? Knowing that when you join a game as town and get nightkilled that statistically your team is going to lose most of the time.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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Universal backup change is a nerf in the tracker setup.In post 586, Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
If the only problem is the BP claiming strategy, then we should just replace the 1-shot BP by a Universal Backup. It means we keep what's working well and give the town a bit more power in the two set-ups that have historically been most scum-sided. Going back to 2of4 would be markedly worse.In post 585, Ranmaru wrote:If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.- RadiantCowbells
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