Matrix6 BP fix

[RadiantCowbells]

I like this idea but I think there's better idea

[RadiantCowbells]

Strongman is awful

[RadiantCowbells]

FEELING SO FAITHLESS LOST UNDER THE SURFACE

[RadiantCowbells]

DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE EXPECTING OF ME

[RadiantCowbells]

I like backup on principle but my feeling is that it's too weak.

[RadiantCowbells]

Meaning too weak in Tracker setups which would still suck but way too strong in a swingy way in roleblocker setups. I very strongly believe that the roleblocker should have to make a choice of targets.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is scumsided.

[RadiantCowbells]

Here's what I've been working on:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Encryptor
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Vanilla Cop	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

[RadiantCowbells]

It gets rid of the potential for a safe way to claim a protected tracker and therefore neuters the bulletproof claim strategy. It may still happen but since we're no longer dealing with single PR setups it no longer advantages town. The only like high depth role is Vanilla Cop and while there are replacements I think it adds fantastic depth with its placement. Balance (while I can't adequately predict how encryptor will influence things) should be better than in the original matrix 6.

On principle I think it's dumb that scum has very little information most of the time in Matrix 6 and I think each setup should be goon/X to make scum more informed.

I explicitly don't like having situations where a PR may or may not exist in newbie games and I think having a consistent 2 PRs per games makes for a better newbie experience.

Cop/goon/goon and jk/goon/goon are extremely swingy and I think the focus should be on giving newbies the best experience rather than the more experienced feeling better about forcing people to deal with situations where a role may or may not exist.

Anything else I can address!

I plan to go setup by setup and explain why I like all six of them but not now.

[RadiantCowbells]

I disagree!

[RadiantCowbells]

The balance for replacing Encryptor with Goon isn't too bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

Column C is balanced.

Row A may be very slightly townsided but I'm fine with it since 1-shot BP means JK clear isn't a clear.

[RadiantCowbells]

I would rather run goon honestly.

I don't think that jk/1shotbp/goon/goon/vts is more than 52% townsided

goon/goon/doc/track is already currently run.

[RadiantCowbells]

Banning players for trying to play to their win conditions is beyond unacceptable

[RadiantCowbells]

Here's what I've been working on:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Encryptor
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Vanilla Cop	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

Row three is toxic to scum.

I propose:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Neapolitan	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Doctor
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

With no ability to be protected and simultaneously able to use their ability, the vanilla cop's results should be a little more useful, hence Neapolitan.

Row 3 is fine and I think your setup is significantly worse because

[RadiantCowbells]

row 1 is broken, first of all.

second of all, 1-shot bulletproof claiming is absolutely going to be a thing in that setup because you're confirmed town and you prevent investigates on you (it's beneficial in column B in mine but bad in row 1 in mine)

so it doesn't fix the problem we're trying to fix

[RadiantCowbells]

Like row 1 is basically the same as current cop/vt/goon/goon except it has another clear who can't be nightkilled.

[RadiantCowbells]

As one of the only people posting in this thread who actually mods newbie games, I can say that, beyond the simple fact that trying to moderate player behavior in the way that LUV suggests is obnoxious to the players, it is EVEN MORE obnoxious to the person actually moderating the game. The way to fix behavior around a "broken" setup (and I still hold that there are substantial antitown effects of the strategy as currently pursued, as well as the fact that it makes a fake doctor claim MUCH more doable for scum) is to change the setup. Trying to mandate that trying to break a setup is a force-replacement or mod-kill offense is the sort of idea that would fairly rapidly lead to no experienced players wanting to play in that setup as well as no experienced moderators wanting to mod that setup.

I can sympathize if people actual had data to back it up being worth the negative effects. I've yet to been informed of that information and I'm inclined to believe people are worried about win rates until otherwise. I understand the accepted way is to replace the role but I don't see that being feasibly done as evident by this thread.

I don't agree with the latter at all. If people aren't willing to compromise their style of scum hunting just a little more for the greater good than we will have bigger problems. I can't speak on how mods would feel but as a player, I think most would agree with me that going on strike against the queue because you can't use this strategy says more about the person than my posts in this thread ever will.

luv it's never been about the claim strategy. it's not the moderator's place to tell the players how to play a game within the bounds that are set ever: and setting the bounds to exclude a claim strat is way gross.

[RadiantCowbells]

Trust telling is totally justified in being outside the bounds of the game because if everyone did it there would be no game of mafia to be played. Everyone doing the BP claim strategy only slightly changes the nature of a mafia game.

[RadiantCowbells]

[Blanked out stuff that may potentially be ongoing games blocked]

I would not play any game that had a rule against shitposting because I think it would end up ruining the game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean it's okay but it doesn't fix a lot of the bad aspects of Matrix6 and I still don't like the universal backup idea. I don't think it's good to have both PRs guaranteed to end up doing nothing if both are outed D1.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean it's okay but it doesn't fix a lot of the bad aspects of Matrix6 and I still don't like the universal backup idea. I don't think it's good to have both PRs guaranteed to end up doing nothing if both are outed D1.

That's what should happen. Town should be punished for bad play.

This is a newbie queue. Too many mods lately are trying to force town wins because town do dumb things. A setup should not be auto loss if town do dumb things, but it shouldn't protect town from being dumb either and say it's ok to make dumb errors.

I don't think that we should do anything besides try to get the winrate as close to 50% as possible. Running setups that will end in 40% winrates is not pleasant for 7/9 of people most games.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think Titus means that mods are overpowering towns and "forcing" town wins through sheer weight of town power compared to numbers and scum power. Admittedly I could be wrong tho.

Yes

I would love to see examples because in general most of the games that I see are scumsided: then again my eye is for 50/50 balance and since you seem to prefer games that aren't 50/50 balanced I am probably part of the problem in your eyes.

[RadiantCowbells]

If not doing that will lead to 40% winrates then I am fine with having more unlynchable slots than scum members.

[RadiantCowbells]

Besides- cop/anything in newbies can already be a guaranteed town win on day 3 and no one objects.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't see how having a 50% winrate punishes good play or rewards bad play. Town shouldn't be expected to constantly lynch scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean it's okay but it doesn't fix a lot of the bad aspects of Matrix6 and I still don't like the universal backup idea. I don't think it's good to have both PRs guaranteed to end up doing nothing if both are outed D1.

That's what should happen. Town should be punished for bad play.

This is a newbie queue. Too many mods lately are trying to force town wins because town do dumb things. A setup should not be auto loss if town do dumb things, but it shouldn't protect town from being dumb either and say it's ok to make dumb errors.

I don't think that we should do anything besides try to get the winrate as close to 50% as possible. Running setups that will end in 40% winrates is not pleasant for 7/9 of people most games.

You're assuming the only thing fun about mafia is winning

Playing games as town where the deck is heavily stacked against you is not my idea of fun.

[RadiantCowbells]

Having a rule where people are outright not allowed to do a specific action that a player can reasonably decide to make while still playing to their win condition is frankly ridiculous. It gives a horrible impression of the site as one that can't balance their own setups.

I rather the site give off that impression than the one current site meta is giving off now.

Open games frequently have claim strategies. EpicMafia is built off of claim strategies. Acting like this is ruining the site is disgraceful.

[RadiantCowbells]

Here's what I've been working on:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Vanilla Cop	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

I am bumping this.

[RadiantCowbells]

I strongly do not support the Backup idea because it leaves town with absolutely no power if both of their PRs get outed.

[RadiantCowbells]

I strongly do not support the Backup idea because it leaves town with absolutely no power if both of their PRs get outed.

how is that different from a diagonal outing in {jk/cop}/vt/goon

Cop adds more power because it can clear people so it's okay to have that attendant risk
Jailkeeper can still get an action off if they're being shot at.

[RadiantCowbells]

yeah. I'm not a huge fan of jailkeeper / backup jailkeeper but it's an improvement on the setup as is but tracker/backup tracker feels very bad

[RadiantCowbells]

You are always safe to shoot a tracker claim because if there is a doc and you get tracked you can CC it

[RadiantCowbells]

I have not seen a version that I thought was superior to the new matrix that I already proposed.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think a lot of people making suggestions don't understand that the setups are currently scumsided and that part of reworking the newbie queue should be to make more townsided setups.

So many of the suggestions have basically boiled down to 'lets nerf towns'

[RadiantCowbells]

What are the exact win rates? Getting to 50/50 is probably way too idealistic without making the games complete misery for scum. Keep in mind that F11 with it's scumsided winrate was considered balanced enough to play for years.

No man please stop. Playing 50/50 setups as scum does not feel at all miserable. There's this strawman here where getting a 50% winrate requires making setups have too much town power.
Cop/Doc/Roleblocker is about 50/50. Tracker/Doctor is about 50/50. Tracker/Doctor only started feeling bad in recent days because the Tracker claiming day 1 makes it a lot harder.
Neither of them have disproportionate amounts of town power.

You know what does feel miserable? Knowing that when you join a game as town and get nightkilled that statistically your team is going to lose most of the time.

[RadiantCowbells]

List3 is not imbalanced but I don't like the setup because they're all very swingy and there's no tracker setups

[RadiantCowbells]

If scum aren't bussing it's inherently harder to lynch scum though

[RadiantCowbells]

If we can't think of anything why not go to the previous standard setup until we can think of something better than that and the current one in the meantime? We don't want to continue using the BP strategy standard at least.

If the only problem is the BP claiming strategy, then we should just replace the 1-shot BP by a Universal Backup. It means we keep what's working well and give the town a bit more power in the two set-ups that have historically been most scum-sided. Going back to 2of4 would be markedly worse.

Universal backup change is a nerf in the tracker setup.

[RadiantCowbells]

You can't design a newbie setup around having me in 1/3 of the games.