Open 680.1 C9++ | Endgame

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Brian Skies

Shamelessly piling onto this wagon.

[Alchemist21]

Maybe I just need to clear my cache.



VOTE: Alchemist21

If there is ever a point where I am torn between having to vote you and another player, I am going to remember this post, and this will be that deciding factor.

[Alchemist21]

I also feel really good that my chances of beating Fire's post count is at least 13%.

The odds of you being Kira are 5%.

[Alchemist21]

Who is Kira?

Please tell me that's a joke.

[Alchemist21]

(((North Carolina)))

Now them's fightin' words.

[Alchemist21]

Who is Kira?

Please tell me that's a joke.

Image

[Alchemist21]

no but seriously who is Kira

Do yourself a favor and go watch Death Note.

[Alchemist21]

(((North Carolina)))

I live there.
Only scum would have this inside knowledge

I've seriously seen more mafia players from North Carolina than probably any other state. I don't know why we love the game so much.

[Alchemist21]

It's because the state is a depressing shithole. Screaming at a group of people online It's Always Sunny style is the only way to keep on the up and up.

Honestly not the worst state I've been in.

[Alchemist21]

It's because the state is a depressing shithole. Screaming at a group of people online It's Always Sunny style is the only way to keep on the up and up.

Honestly not the worst state I've been in.

California is about to be annex'd so that doesn't count.

I was talking about Missouri but if the shoe fits...

[Alchemist21]

as if Crayola are the only crayons around

I mean there's RoseArt but I hate them. If you're Roseart you can hang today.

[Alchemist21]

What's up with all the posts with the mod's color but no "edited by" at the bottom of the post?

It might be because "edited by" only shows up if the post wasn't the last post in the thread when the edit happens.

[Alchemist21]

Deja vu all over again.

VOTE: Titus

Because if you are gonna let the fact that someone was town and the whole game getting re rolled stop a tunnel you didn't want it enough.

I have actually flipped Town in a game and one of the scum players didn't believe I was Town after I died (it was multiball with 3 scumteams).

[Alchemist21]

VC 1.02

Official Vote Count

Brian Skies

(3): CommKnight, Titus, Alchemist21

Umlaut

(3): shannon, Green Crayons, Narna

FireScreamer

(2): FrankJaeger, Umlaut

Necta

(1): davesaz

Not Voting

(4): RoryMK, Brian Skies, Necta, FireScreamer

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-05-03 20:06:48)

Deja vu all over again.

VOTE: Titus

Because if you are gonna let the fact that someone was town and the whole game getting re rolled stop a tunnel you didn't want it enough.

Lowkey if Umlaut and Brian both flip red I'd say Fire is a shoe-in for 3rd scum.

[Alchemist21]

I also won't forget Narna's switch to Umlaut from Brian when Brian had 4 votes.

[Alchemist21]

I mean even if the pressure is slight it's still there and you've both helped keep pressure off the Brian wagon before he's even entered the thread to react. Judging by one of Narna's comments I kinda thought she wanted a good early wagon but I guess I was wrong.

[Alchemist21]

I swear y'all gonna roast me to death before anyone actually gets lynched.

[Alchemist21]

And that's the worst spelling of RVS.

[Alchemist21]

I like Brian Skies entrance.

Gotta give the other new person a proper welcome too.

VOTE: Necta

[Alchemist21]

Also reading slight Town on Firescreamer.

[Alchemist21]

I like Brian Skies entrance.

Gotta give the other new person a proper welcome too.

VOTE: Necta

What do you like about his entrance?

I like how he just jumps in and starts poking around to get an early handle on the game. Most if not all the questions he asked are good questions that could actually lead to some content getting generated.

[Alchemist21]

And why are you townreading me?

What I said about you and Narna was just nitpicking bs to get some reactions. I think scum or town could have attacked me over it, but you were there as it happened and directly engaged me on it and seemed to actively nullread it, which to me is more indicative of Town trying to consider things and not just rush into a scumread.

[Alchemist21]

Shannon why are you offering to recind a vote if it makes someone uncomfortable?

It's not a literal offer, it's intended to show that the vote is not Serious.

^^That's what makes me think faux claims. Also no one else is taking it seriously as they would if it was a real claim. I always policy vote fake claims, no matter how fake,

You didn't vote Titus last game for fakeclaiming "two letters."

When she first claimed I thought it was real. When she rescinded it I already had a town read on her, *and* a scum read on the person she had tried to fake out. In that instance, voting Titus might have shifted the whole game in a way I didn't want it to go.

@shannon:

Because they're both making faux claims and I thought it was time to change things up

If you suspect them both, why change it up when the first one was already gaining votes (and was a wagon you started)? What makes you think they're faux claims?

I'm interested in your answer to this question.

I've never been a mason so I don't know exactly how I'd claim, but I think 'Hey mason buddy' 'Don't out us yet, buddy' kind of stuff is not the way.

Umlaut and Titus are voting together. Given the events of last game, one or both should be scum.

I think the last game might introduce some biases here that aren't helpful, to say the least.

You still haven't actually answered the question of

why

you changed votes.

[Alchemist21]

Also, the likelyhood of mafia last game being mafia this game will actually probably be unlikely. So I'm pretty confident in the team being green this time around. But TB definitely rolled some of our bloc from last game as red this one. I'm willing to bet on it being FS of all people.

1. This is phrased as if you were town last game, which you weren't. It's odd that you identify with a townbloc that you weren't really in.

2. Why do you think someone in the townbloc is definitely scum this time? I can dismiss "scum last time won't be scum this time" as a common misconception, but I'm not sure how you're getting this one.

It feels artificial and a bit LAMIST, and combined with bad math that happens to point away from him in particular if it's accepted it makes me suspicious.

Re. your point about me and Titus, I think I understand what you're getting at but I'd rather have you spell it out to make sure I'm understanding correctly.

Umlaut I know you're a math nerd and all but I think you're wasting time trying to explain gambler's fallacy to Comm and anyone else who doesn't understand it. I doubt anyone who sees something scummy is going to put it aside, just because we're human and subject to our own confirmation bias. It's probably a more worthwhile discussion to engage comm on your LAMIST accusation, which notably went unresponded to by Comm.

[Alchemist21]

Gambler's Fallacy (MafiaScum Wiki)
Gambler's fallacy (Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

pedit

@GC, if you're paranoid about being buddied. Look at Umlaut's question to you about a Narna and me duo. Like legit. He's trying to get on your good side. Also for being the math guy, he's not even looking at the numbers for this. Just sucking up to you to mislynch D1. I'm a betting man and I will bet in odds when they are favourable to catching scum even if they act townie. They can never hide from probability.

This feels exactly like Comm from last game.

VOTE: CommKnight

How exactly would you describe the similarities between Comm in the last game and this game?

[Alchemist21]

Aside from the general swagger and cocksureness (which is probably just how he is), I distinctly remember him taking others' scumreads/cases and tripping over himself to repeat them twice as loud. CommKnight's post there came right after GC said he sensed I might be buddying him.

Can you point out where this happened in the last game? I know you can't quote a locked PT but you can give the post numbers to look at. I went through his ISO and didn't see anything like that.

[Alchemist21]

For clarification Iwant post numbers of the original cases and when he repeated them please.

[Alchemist21]

Hard to quote posts from the old game when the thread is locked, but I had this in particular in mind:

This may be the most fun I've ever had in a Mafia game.

UNVOTE:
Actually I'd prefer to declare intent to hammer just to make absolutely sure he hangs today after seeing 1710. Would appreciate votes on Umlaut in the meantime.

AND I'm locked in. That is the scummiest shit I've seen. Like it's almost too scummy to be scum! The only way he avoid the noose is if he's a mason and even that's iffy.

As far as I know no one else claimed to scumread me more for this in particular than they already had. This was actually a major influence on my later read of "town for the claim and for no other reason" on his slot.

That entire sequence happened in the span of 5 minutes. It's entirely possible he didn't even see the IC's post when he posted that.

[Alchemist21]

I didn't want to get stuck in a tunnel.

Why would you have gotten stuck in a tunnel on an RVS vote? This sounds like an excuse made up by nervous scum.

VOTE: Shannon

[Alchemist21]

Actually, all the examples I can find are directed at me. It's possible I'm just an egomaniac.

He also took Titus' case against me from 1220, 1224 and parroted it back in 1234 even though it was terrible. Others (well, Shannon) followed it but he repeated it as if he'd thought of it himself.

See now that one makes a little more sense. I think it might just be your confbias from the last game talking here though. Someone said the exact thing about me when I voted you (something about "agreeing 200%") and I was Town. You just remember Comm doing it because he was scum in that game.

(nothing wrong with being an egomaniac like me though)

[Alchemist21]

I didn't want to get stuck in a tunnel.

Why would you have gotten stuck in a tunnel on an RVS vote? This sounds like an excuse made up by nervous scum.

VOTE: Shannon

Maybe it's hard to tell tone on the internet, maybe we have cultural differences, but I was taking the piss.

I don't see how that explains the tunnel comment in the least.

[Alchemist21]

Actually, all the examples I can find are directed at me. It's possible I'm just an egomaniac.

He also took Titus' case against me from 1220, 1224 and parroted it back in 1234 even though it was terrible. Others (well, Shannon) followed it but he repeated it as if he'd thought of it himself.

See now that one makes a little more sense. I think it might just be your confbias from the last game talking here though. Someone said the exact thing about me when I voted you (something about "agreeing 200%") and I was Town. You just remember Comm doing it because he was scum in that game.

(nothing wrong with being an egomaniac like me though)

oh shit it was Umlaut who made the 200% comment lol

[Alchemist21]

I can either explain it to you and it will be awkward, or we can just accept that you didn't realise I was being sarcastic and move on.

I mean I can't really argue with you if you say it was meant to be sarcastic, but when multiple people are asking you a serious question when trying to get a read on you, sarcasm isn't the answer. Ircher tried that shit too in the last game.

[Alchemist21]

Well I'm pretty sure Umlaut's Town now.

[Alchemist21]

I can either explain it to you and it will be awkward, or we can just accept that you didn't realise I was being sarcastic and move on.

I mean I can't really argue with you if you say it was meant to be sarcastic, but when multiple people are asking you a serious question when trying to get a read on you, sarcasm isn't the answer.

Ircher tried that shit too in the last game.

Was he scum?
Is it alignment indicative?

Shit my bad. I thought he was in a scum slot but he wasn't.

UNVOTE: Shannon

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Comm

This gamblers fallacy stuff is lol. Time to pressure Comm till he reveals it was all a ruse and he is actually 1 shot doc pretending to be scummy.

And come on guys what are the odds of him doing that twice in a row

AGV

AGP

What does this mean?

[Alchemist21]

I can either explain it to you and it will be awkward, or we can just accept that you didn't realise I was being sarcastic and move on.

I mean I can't really argue with you if you say it was meant to be sarcastic, but when multiple people are asking you a serious question when trying to get a read on you, sarcasm isn't the answer. Ircher tried that shit too in the last game.

Ah so that's where we're missing each other; you're trying to ask a serious question about something I said just out of hand.

It wasn't just me, it was multiple people. I guess I have a problem with seeing shit like this as scummy, but I really don't understand players who go into a game as Town and make themselves hard to read. People are doing themselves and the Town a disservice when they do that.

[Alchemist21]

Firescreamer may not be as active about it as last game but he has actually attempted to engage people, it's just that most of the time it didn't go anywhere. He's engaged me on comment about him/Narna and my Brian Skies Townread, he tried to engage Rory on his vote on me but Rory hasn't posted again, he tried to engage Titus on her vote but the answer was "cuz lol."

As for his phrasing FireScreamer reminds me of how people play on other sites and what he's said to you is something I would think nothing of on a site like MafiaUniverse, and because his play has been like that even since last game I think nothing of it here.

[Alchemist21]

Maybe they should just add Day Talk to this setup since people keep bringing it up.

[Alchemist21]

I say we lynch out of Frank, Alch, Me, and Frank's Wifey. That's a decent scumpool.

Who is Frank's wife?

I'm guessing shannon

I ship it. Now we all have to come up with our OTP for this game.

[Alchemist21]

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Kinda agree with this. Hard to say if he's just like this on early D1 though.

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Is there a reason you still haven't moved your RVS vote if you think that's true?

Do you have any other reads?

It also feels like he tried to turn it around on Frank here.

VOTE: Rory

[Alchemist21]

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Kinda agree with this. Hard to say if he's just like this on early D1 though.

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Is there a reason you still haven't moved your RVS vote if you think that's true?

Do you have any other reads?

It also feels like he tried to turn it around on Frank here.

VOTE: Rory

Can you explain where I went wrong by asking Frank 2 questions in an attempt to get him involved?

It looks like you're trying to discredit his point against you by challenging his lack of vote.

[Alchemist21]

The GC wagon is one I could support. Would rather keep my vote on Rory for the time being.

[Alchemist21]

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon? Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

[Alchemist21]

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Kinda agree with this. Hard to say if he's just like this on early D1 though.

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Is there a reason you still haven't moved your RVS vote if you think that's true?

Do you have any other reads?

It also feels like he tried to turn it around on Frank here.

VOTE: Rory

Can you explain where I went wrong by asking Frank 2 questions in an attempt to get him involved?

It looks like you're trying to discredit his point against you by challenging his lack of vote.

How am I discrediting his point? I ask him if he has a reason not to move his RVS vote and followup by asking if he has other reads.
Maybe he has a scumread on that player now, and didn't mention it.

It looks like the message you were sending was "if you really thought that you would vote me," and I see that as a subtle discredit attempt.

[Alchemist21]

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon? Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

First: That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Second: Maybe you should read my posts. You can join the Brian train of asking questions that already have answers, but I'm not going to repeat myself for you ad naseum, either.

Third: "Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did." Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. That's the whole point in engaging with another player. To figure these things out. So, what point are you trying to make?

You didn't call her out on lack or reasoning, you called her out on joining a wagon before you did. You didn't engage her on that vote. Your suspicion stems from her taking an early spot on a wagon that you think looks good for scum and being upset that you didn't get it. That's the point I'm making.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Alchemist21]

Who are you talking to?
I know what I'm using for a name if me and Brian hydra tho

Really wanna know what this name would be though.

[Alchemist21]

I'm pretty sympathetic to the GC wagon but I'd still rather attract more attention to Comm, given how badly he buckled under that pressure as scum last time.

Alchemist, what are your independent feelings on FireScreamer? I still think he's town, but I'm much more conflicted on that read than I was last game.

idk in the last game Comm pulled it together enough to make me think his earlier actions were an intentional Town gambit so I can't say for sure he'd buckle under pressure.

I'm feeling about the same on FS. It's still a mild Townread and I'm not putting him at lock-clear Town like I did last game. There's a part of me that wants to say he was modspewed Town but the better half of me is saying mod could have done that for scum too.

Who are you talking to?
I know what I'm using for a name if me and Brian hydra tho

Really wanna know what this name would be though.

Gamma Skies, OBVIOUSLY

That's what I thought but didn't get the joke and thought there might have been another name.

[Alchemist21]

There's a part of me that wants to say he was modspewed Town but the better half of me is saying mod could have done that for scum too.

I know ThinkBig alerted me (the mod) when a player claimed scum with a partner in another game, even though he knew that player was town, on the basis that it would have been gamethrowing if that player were telling the truth. So he understands the need to take the same action regardless of actual alignment. I'm not 100% sure this is the same thing since FS never actually claimed to be using a trust tell.

If the mod thought it was a possibility then it's the same thing. Good to know the mod treats the factions equally on these matters.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist:

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon? Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

First: That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Second: Maybe you should read my posts. You can join the Brian train of asking questions that already have answers, but I'm not going to repeat myself for you ad naseum, either.

Third: "Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did." Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. That's the whole point in engaging with another player. To figure these things out. So, what point are you trying to make?

You didn't call her out on lack or reasoning, you called her out on joining a wagon before you did. You didn't engage her on that vote. Your suspicion stems from her taking an early spot on a wagon that you think looks good for scum and being upset that you didn't get it. That's the point I'm making.

Okay? No shit? Because I didn't suspect Titus for her lack of reasoning?

Do you know where suspicion about Titus's "lack of reasoning" has originated? From Alchemist. In Post 425. My suspicions were her sudden jump onto the shannon wagon, which was right when my attention was being drawn to shannon via other players' questioning. Don't foist your suspicions of Titus onto me, and then say it's suspicious that I didn't voice your suspicions when they weren't mine.

Exactly. Your third point was to assert that you engage with other players to find out their reasoning, but since you didn't do that with Titus on her Shannon vote I take it you didn't care if she had reasons or not. You're seriously just sore that she took the spot on the wagon you wanted.

And I never once said I found Titus suspicious, and to claim that I'm projecting my suspicions of her onto your posts is misrep (and it feels like I'm complimenting your blatant falsehoods by giving it that much praise).

GC can hang today.

[Alchemist21]

lol

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon?

Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

Third:

"Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did."

Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. That's the whole point in engaging with another player. To figure these things out. So, what point are you trying to make?

"My" third point was responding to YOUR suspicion YOU created in 425. Are you being intellectually lazy or just arguing in bad faith?

I didn't do anything with Titus because she ignored me entirely when I tried to get her attention on shannon.

You're seriously just sore that she took the spot on the wagon you wanted.

lolol

Maybe Titus has suspicions [about Shannon] too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

Does that make it easier for you or do you still want to misrep me?

[Alchemist21]

Also, why'd Titus have to jump in front of my shannon vote?

I very obviously telegraphed it.

It's coming. Just you wait.

And you're going to actually try telling us any of this post was expressing suspicion on Titus and attempting to engage her? Rather than you just being sore she voted Shannon before you did?

[Alchemist21]

That doesn't clarify anything.

lol

Seriously, GC can hang today.

[Alchemist21]

I found Titus's timing suspicious, and wanted to engage Titus on the timing of her vote.

You came up with Titus failing to articulate any suspicions as scummy, and you are faulting me for failing to engage Titus on not articulating suspicions.

So, whatever.

LOL I never said it was scummy.

The whole fucking point is that you voted her for voting Shannon (a vote you wanted) before you did. And I'm saying that she could have found Shannon suspicious as well, and just went ahead and voted Shannon instead of waiting on it.

Seriously, GC can hang today.

[Alchemist21]

Also, why'd Titus have to jump in front of my shannon vote?

I very obviously telegraphed it.

It's coming. Just you wait.

What. Is. This? Me no like this post.

GC, can you explain why you posted this?

Which part?

I telegraphed the beginning of my shannon suspicions in Post 132.

Titus jumped in before the shannon votes started rolling in.

Jumping in before a wagon gets rolling but when the groundwork for votes is being laid is suspicious, because it puts scum not at the golden spot of 3/4s of the way through.

Never said 154 is expressing suspicion on Titus huh?

[Alchemist21]

and then faulted me for failing to have adopted THAT suspicious and try to press titus for THAT suspicious rather than for the suspicion I actually had at the time.

Again I never faulted you for not thinking that was suspicious. The fault is that you didn't care enough to consider Titus could just be Town also scumreading Shannon.

[Alchemist21]

I know you can do a better job at trying to engage people than 154; don't even try to sell us on that point.

[Alchemist21]

Just because he did respond doesn't mean you were trying to get him to respond.

[Alchemist21]

I feel like GC/Alchemist is T v T.

Why do you still think GC is Town after all that?

[Alchemist21]

I feel like GC/Alchemist is T v T.

Why do you still think GC is Town after all that?

I can see his logic fairly well. It doesn't seem convoluted or disingenuous.

Really? Because I can't.

[Alchemist21]

GC seems to be trying to engage Titus. Also, apologies for causing this trouble, since I noticed GC stated this happened because of my questioning.

Don't apologize. He's trying to pass of 154 as things that it simply wasn't.

[Alchemist21]

I'm still paying off the student loans for that shit too.

[Alchemist21]

I don't really understand Alchemist's reasoning for voting GC.

In addition to the whole trust tell thing, he's seriously trying to put more meaning into his posts than were there before. Not only that be he misrepped my point about him and Titus by saying I was coming up with suspicions of Titus and I never was.

[Alchemist21]

"Guys, don't listen to this guy. He just doesn't know me or how I think, so he clearly can't be right."

Ah yes. This is definitely my case. Mhm, mhm.

If

your

case is "GC is obtuse and belligerent when people suspect him," you're the one who is lacking.

My case is you making a comment to make it look like you're busy or interested town when you're not. You've since grasped for straws and tried to dress it up into more than it really is. You've also belligerently stood by your claim that your 'inconsistency' has any weight, when I've already shown you that you're just blatantly disregarding what I've said and don't really care about understanding anything.

He did this with the thing I was arguing with him about too.

[Alchemist21]

This is a pressure vote for claim. I think GC is town still, but I do think it'd help progress this along to get his claim and push FS if it's believable.

That's like the worst reason to vote someone. wtf

[Alchemist21]

Also:

Not only that be he misrepped my point about him and Titus by saying I was coming up with suspicions of Titus and I never was.

Please cite who came up with these suspicions:

Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote

call her out on lack or reasoning

I'll wait.

Waiting for this is like waiting for Santa to write you back.

[Alchemist21]

Comm's being weird again like last game, but I can't tell if it's scummy or just plain bad.

[Alchemist21]

Waiting for this is like waiting for Santa to write you back.

All you Santa deniers can just fuck off

I don't know why but this line just goes so well with your new avatar.

[Alchemist21]

@Brian Skies

Here's some source material for context. The point of whether or not he tried engaging Titus came up because of this. Most relevant points are bolded.

Also, why'd Titus have to jump in front of my shannon vote?

I very obviously telegraphed it.

It's coming. Just you wait.

What. Is. This? Me no like this post.

GC, can you explain why you posted this?

Which part?

I telegraphed the beginning of my shannon suspicions in Post 132.

Titus jumped in before the shannon votes started rolling in.

Jumping in before a wagon gets rolling but when the groundwork for votes is being laid is suspicious, because it puts scum not at the golden spot of 3/4s of the way through.

Also pretty sure I never actually voted shannon but I was thinking about doing it back in the 100s-200s or whenever that line of discussion went down.

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon? Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon? Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

First: That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Second: Maybe you should read my posts. You can join the Brian train of asking questions that already have answers, but I'm not going to repeat myself for you ad naseum, either.

Third:

"Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did." Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. That's the whole point in engaging with another player. To figure these things out. So, what point are you trying to make?

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon? Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

First: That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Second: Maybe you should read my posts. You can join the Brian train of asking questions that already have answers, but I'm not going to repeat myself for you ad naseum, either.

Third: "Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did." Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. That's the whole point in engaging with another player. To figure these things out. So, what point are you trying to make?

You didn't call her out on lack or reasoning, you called her out on joining a wagon before you did. You didn't engage her on that vote. Your suspicion stems from her taking an early spot on a wagon that you think looks good for scum and being upset that you didn't get it. That's the point I'm making.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist:

132 doesn't even look like you're expressing suspicion.

Second, if you had already found Shannon suspicious, what makes it suspicious of Titus to be voting for Shannon? Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did.

First: That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Second: Maybe you should read my posts. You can join the Brian train of asking questions that already have answers, but I'm not going to repeat myself for you ad naseum, either.

Third: "Maybe Titus has suspicions too and didn't hesitate to vote like you did." Yeah. Maybe. Maybe not. That's the whole point in engaging with another player. To figure these things out. So, what point are you trying to make?

You didn't call her out on lack or reasoning, you called her out on joining a wagon before you did. You didn't engage her on that vote. Your suspicion stems from her taking an early spot on a wagon that you think looks good for scum and being upset that you didn't get it. That's the point I'm making.

Okay? No shit? Because I didn't suspect Titus for her lack of reasoning?

Do you know where suspicion about Titus's "lack of reasoning" has originated? From Alchemist. In Post 425. My suspicions were her sudden jump onto the shannon wagon, which was right when my attention was being drawn to shannon via other players' questioning. Don't foist your suspicions of Titus onto me, and then say it's suspicious that I didn't voice your suspicions when they weren't mine.

Exactly.

Your third point was to assert that you engage with other players to find out their reasoning, but since you didn't do that with Titus on her Shannon vote I take it you didn't care if she had reasons or not. You're seriously just sore that she took the spot on the wagon you wanted.

And I never once said I found Titus suspicious, and to claim that I'm projecting my suspicions of her onto your posts is misrep (and it feels like I'm complimenting your blatant falsehoods by giving it that much praise).

GC can hang today.

One more for clarification

[Alchemist21]

Also, I already know what points you were making. Do you think that Green Crayons deliberately made an effort to push the lack of reasoning thing? If not, why are you bringing this up again?

I really do. He misrepped both of us in our arguments against him. Also I thought you were saying I strawmanned him which I never did.

[Alchemist21]

Comm's being weird again like last game, but I can't tell if it's scummy or just plain bad.

What would help you get off this fence?

If someone could make a good case for or against him. Right now it's hard to not see the things he's done as just bad play, because even scum would normally know this is bad.

[Alchemist21]

[Alchemist21]

In 342, GC asks Titus again about her vote on me
GC asks follow ups in 357

Also, thanks for confirming that GC did, in fact, engage Titus on his suspicions.

It seems the sort of thing that is easily verifiable by reading GC's ISO. And then once GC's follow up question is noticed, it should have been like 'OK you did follow up but Titus didn't answer - Why didn't Titus answer, and why didn't you keep pushing it?' Not the shit show we've had.

The most damning point for me is that the whole thing was a total non-issue until Gamma brought it up like 300 posts later. And if anything I'd have expected Titus to be lambasted for not answering the question (why she voted me with no explanation) rather than Alch for not following up enough. (It is bloody hard to follow up with Titus, especially when Titus is lurking for hundreds of posts at a time).

Seriously, I think there's scum here. I was being voted by GC and then Titus, and Alch chose to engage me about my reads but not Titus for not responding to GC. Then when it became clear I was not going to be wagoned, Gamma brought up GC and Titus again, and Alch went after GC.

I mean there were three naked votes on Alch in a row, and it was at that time - 300 odd posts after Titus first voted me - that Gamma chose to ask Alch why he hadn't followed up with Titus more.

Join me here on Alch or Gamma because I'm pretty sure this is where scum's at.

What is the specific issue here?

Answer this question Shannon.

The specific issue is that it was you who started the whole GC vs Alchemist shit show we've been seeing the past umpteen pages.

Long long ago, in a post known as 151, Titus voted me without giving a reason. GC got mad at Titus for doing that, because he wanted to vote me first, and Titus didn't give a reason for the vote. Alchemist got involved, and started asking me to justify my actions.

That looks, to me, like the start of a wagon on me. Except it wasn't. Titus didn't come back to answer GC's questions, the wagon moved on, and Alchemist unvoted me.

Much later, these names popped up again.

In 390, Titus calls GC scum for whining. There are three naked votes on GC shortly after. A shonky looking wagon, from my POV.

You followed that up, not by asking Titus why she'd continued to evade GC's questions, but by accusing GC of not even asking follow up questions. And that's plainly false, and you can see it in GC's ISO.

Then Alchemist got involved again, and said he didn't think Titus had a case to answer because it didn't even look like GC was suspicious of me. My problems with this are that he didn't bring it up at the time (he waited for your prompting), and that he refused to accept a reasonable explanation from GC.

So: My issue with you is that you waited until a very opportune moment to bring up GC's supposed failing re: Titus, the point you made was false, and it gave Alchemist an in to really wagon GC.

If you're

not

directly involved, you should join me in looking at Alch and Titus very closely because this is really bad stuff.

I think Shannon's wrong about me, but her thoughts seem to be coming from a Town mindset. Also appreciate her giving us her thoughts and not just sheeping wagons when asked.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist. Can you make a scum case on someone for me that isn't GC or based on GC associatives?

Right now all I can give you is Rory based on what I said earlier. I still have all my earlier expressed Townreads as well.

[Alchemist21]

In 342, GC asks Titus again about her vote on me
GC asks follow ups in 357

Also, thanks for confirming that GC did, in fact, engage Titus on his suspicions.

It seems the sort of thing that is easily verifiable by reading GC's ISO. And then once GC's follow up question is noticed, it should have been like 'OK you did follow up but Titus didn't answer - Why didn't Titus answer, and why didn't you keep pushing it?' Not the shit show we've had.

The most damning point for me is that the whole thing was a total non-issue until Gamma brought it up like 300 posts later. And if anything I'd have expected Titus to be lambasted for not answering the question (why she voted me with no explanation) rather than Alch for not following up enough. (It is bloody hard to follow up with Titus, especially when Titus is lurking for hundreds of posts at a time).

Seriously, I think there's scum here. I was being voted by GC and then Titus, and Alch chose to engage me about my reads but not Titus for not responding to GC. Then when it became clear I was not going to be wagoned, Gamma brought up GC and Titus again, and Alch went after GC.

I mean there were three naked votes on Alch in a row, and it was at that time - 300 odd posts after Titus first voted me - that Gamma chose to ask Alch why he hadn't followed up with Titus more.

Join me here on Alch or Gamma because I'm pretty sure this is where scum's at.

What is the specific issue here?

Answer this question Shannon.

The specific issue is that it was you who started the whole GC vs Alchemist shit show we've been seeing the past umpteen pages.

Long long ago, in a post known as 151, Titus voted me without giving a reason. GC got mad at Titus for doing that, because he wanted to vote me first, and Titus didn't give a reason for the vote. Alchemist got involved, and started asking me to justify my actions.

That looks, to me, like the start of a wagon on me. Except it wasn't. Titus didn't come back to answer GC's questions, the wagon moved on, and Alchemist unvoted me.

Much later, these names popped up again.

In 390, Titus calls GC scum for whining. There are three naked votes on GC shortly after. A shonky looking wagon, from my POV.

You followed that up, not by asking Titus why she'd continued to evade GC's questions, but by accusing GC of not even asking follow up questions. And that's plainly false, and you can see it in GC's ISO.

Then Alchemist got involved again, and said he didn't think Titus had a case to answer because it didn't even look like GC was suspicious of me. My problems with this are that he didn't bring it up at the time (he waited for your prompting), and that he refused to accept a reasonable explanation from GC.

So: My issue with you is that you waited until a very opportune moment to bring up GC's supposed failing re: Titus, the point you made was false, and it gave Alchemist an in to really wagon GC.

If you're

not

directly involved, you should join me in looking at Alch and Titus very closely because this is really bad stuff.

I think Shannon's wrong about me, but her thoughts seem to be coming from a Town mindset. Also appreciate her giving us her thoughts and not just sheeping wagons when asked.

What's with the uncertainty at the beginning?

The "I think" part applies to her thoughts coming from a Town mindset. Guess I should have put it mid sentence but I'm kinda used to starting off sentences with I think.

[Alchemist21]

Oh hey did anyone else see Campbell's Soup got banned? Serves him right.

[Alchemist21]

Hey guys gotta read from page 20 and after.
Been super busy irl . if i dont think the time for this game will come i will replace out

Reading tonight. Off work tommorow

He never came back.

Frank are you still gonna play?

[Alchemist21]

Oh hey did anyone else see Campbell's Soup got banned? Serves him right.

Why?

I have no respect for the guy for replacing in then immediately replacing out like he did. Also looking at the other things he got banned for I'm really surprised they didn't permaban him.

[Alchemist21]

I tried reading last night, but I just couldn't focus and I didn't want to do a crappy job. I'm fully aware my input in this game has been pretty crappy, no need to point that out. I'm struggling to get solid reads. Hopefully my catchup will change that.

@Rory, I was just curious as to if you could see the PT's because let's say there was a game with PT's outside of scum chat, if you were able to see it and playing in that game you'd know there'd non-mafia with PT's ongoing. But that's cool. Makes sense to do it that way to prevent things like that.

Also I've had two games with Frank, one as both town and one as both mafia. I'd like to think I got a feel for him. As far as Narna goes? I only had a single game where I was mafia and she was town. I'd like to think I know how town her acts.

Yeah it doesn't work like that. I can only see PT's people give me access to. If I want to play a micro(my queue), I will always make sure to notify the mod that I'm playing so I never get any information I shouldn't get. If I somehow do get information, I will immediately replace out to avoid the game getting compromised.

So what is it about Frank specifically that makes you townread him?
How could you possibly know Narna's scum game if you haven't played with scum Narna? I can understand if you would lean town on him for stuff he did, but a solid townread seems a bit much here. Can you elaborate on why you have such a strong townread on Narna?

---

- I don't really buy GC's case on Brian Skies at all. It takes balls to engage a vocal player like Skies though, so even though I don't support it, I think he's more likely town for it.

---

Spoiler: Alchemist wall

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Kinda agree with this. Hard to say if he's just like this on early D1 though.

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Is there a reason you still haven't moved your RVS vote if you think that's true?

Do you have any other reads?

It also feels like he tried to turn it around on Frank here.

VOTE: Rory

Can you explain where I went wrong by asking Frank 2 questions in an attempt to get him involved?

It looks like you're trying to discredit his point against you by challenging his lack of vote.

How am I discrediting his point? I ask him if he has a reason not to move his RVS vote and followup by asking if he has other reads.
Maybe he has a scumread on that player now, and didn't mention it.

It looks like the message you were sending was "if you really thought that you would vote me," and I see that as a subtle discredit attempt.

How do you feel about it, now that I've explained it? Does it still bother you?

Maybe I was misreading you and I'll adjust my read if I see reason to, but it still bothers me and I haven't seen a reason to Townread you.

I know you said you're struggling to get solid reads, but what are your reads right now?

[Alchemist21]

Town

Green Crayons
Umlaut
Brian Skies
Titus
shannon

Unsure/Null

FireScreamer
Narna
davesaz
FrankJaeger

Scum

CommKnight
Gamma Emerald
Alchemist21

Are any of your reads based on associatives with Comm? How would they change if he flips green?

[Alchemist21]

If Comm would flip town, I would have to admit I was wrong about Gamma trying to distract people from the Comm wagon. I suppose that's a bit of an associative.
I would definitely need to reread some people.

And what's your reason for scumreading me?

[Alchemist21]

I'm starting to think Rory's just like this. Not scumreading him as much now.

[Alchemist21]

Does anyone have a read on Frank? I don't think he's done anything indicative yet, but if someone's seen something one way or the other I'd like to know. I'd rather engage him directly but there's a chance he might replace out and I'd rather not keep waiting like I kept waiting for Beeboy.

[Alchemist21]

I'm starting to think Rory's just like this. Not scumreading him as much now.

What do you mean "like this"?

Your posts came off as not being genuine to me and a couple others, but I'm starting to think I just thought that because most of them are fairly short and don't say much.

[Alchemist21]

You are willing to wash away pages of drivel because he formatted a post correctly? This turns a scumread into a townread that you are willing to trust implicitly when wagoning someone else?

Formatting means jack. Thanks for completely misrepping what I said.

I have no incentive to overtly misrep what you say. Everyone is reading the same thread. Maybe this is a misunderstanding. Tell me again what you like about the post?

I like the way he laid out his points of discussion. It suggests town that is doubling down.

I see "The way he laid out" as meaning the formatting of the post. You arn't really talking about the content at all. Why does that suggest town is doubling down? Define doubling down.

It's like the organization. For some reason words are failing me.
Doubling down means to focus your efforts. It feels like town doubling down since he was in trouble and he shaped up.

Ok I'm fine with voting this.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Talk about scum failing under pressure - Gamma's failing to come up with an actual reason to Townread Comm here.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Fire

ThinkBig just count the one that's on scum.
You know which one I am talking about.

You really want to make my life difficult, don't you?

It's about time you showed up. Goddamn this about to be both lit af and confusing af.

[Alchemist21]

So FB, do you read threads you replace into?

I read nothing of this game besides first post before I subbed in.

I probably won't read any of stuff I wasn't here for either unless people quote it.
Maybe if I get in try hard mood.

Please don't get me in try hard mood

I know you don't wanna read the old stuff, and I'm about to ask you to read something everyone complained about, but can you look back at me vs Green Crayons and tell me what you think?

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist, Gamma and Narna, what would it take to get you three to vote FS? We can't rely on the others because they've shown they will resist his wagon and if he flips red, we might be able to get two birds with one stone. If you can't help put him at L1, WHY is he town to you all? Look at his ISO, it's fluff, no cases built, nothing. He's relying on being "Town read" to get by. He's not actually trying to scum hunt.

I haven't actually seen anything from Firescreamer that I think is scummy.

Is he less active this game? Sure. Is he more reactive in this game? Sure. But neither of those are things that can't come from Town. I'm not gonna vote Firescreamer until I see something I think is scummy.

[Alchemist21]

Umlaut firescreamer alchemist scumteam

Davesaz sk

Final guess

This post is causing some dejavu.

Why is Gamma Emerald a wagon? Last I remember I saw more genuine attempt to solve from him than from anyone else.

I realize you're working in chronological order, but the best way to find an answer to this is just to read the segment of the game during which the wagon built up. Once you get to that I'd appreciate your thoughts on the cases presented.

I'll go further: Regardless of whether you think my case on Gamma was any good, I want to know what you think of the people who followed me on to him.

The TLDR is that Alchemist was voting Gamma as an OMGUS.
I voted Gamma but implicated Alchemist as being his team mate. (Alchemist voted elsewhere but I can't be arsed seeing whether it was before or after I voted)
Then FireScreamer, Narna, Umlaut, and Alchemist all voted Gamma again.

FireScreamer has emerged as the Gamma alt-wagon, Gamma apparently has no reads to vote despite having read the whole game ...

I don't even know where Gamma's vote was when I voted him, but if you think my vote was OMGUS you need to go back and look again.

[Alchemist21]

Get your deck out, we are about to have a DUEL!
As the kids say "Get your game on!"

Is it weird that I recently got back into yugioh and I'm seeing this post now?

Yu go oh is trash though

Which seasons? 100% do not trash the game.

[Alchemist21]

@Shannon: You do realize wagons on different people are being created to AVOID a FS lynch. It is clear to anyone watching even just the vote counts that wagons keep forming to try and get away from FS. But it's not working. When FS flips red, I'm going to look at those who refused to vote for him and I will GRILL them alive.

Who do you think is scum besides FS? You keep saying all the other wagons are being made to avoid his lynch, but nobody else is saying that.

[Alchemist21]

TITUS!!!!
Change your avi.

The penguin Zorro has gotten old fast.

But it was a gift by Ether

Ok I'll look into changing it when less busy

FWIW I like the penguin avatar. But I just like penguins in general.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist, well my reads list is currently like this.

TR: Firebringer, Alchemist, Brian Skies, Gamma Emerald and Narna.
TL: Green Crayons
Neutral: daves and Titus
SL: RoryMK, Umlaut and shannon
SR: FireScreamer

Now if FireScreamer flips green, I'd probably be more inclined to look into Titus. But it seems to me that others are seeing similar play in FS that I'm seeing, so I don't think he will flip green. Also Brian and others pointed out something I didn't really notice. FS early threats were like he KNOWS I'm town. But doesn't want me to be looking at him and he wants something easy to defend against but his overall play screams scum.

I'm still on the fence about Umlaut but if I had to pick with a gun to my head. I'd say FS, Umlaut and possibly shannon being scum this game with Rory, daves or Titus being possible SK.

So at this point I'm pretty sure you're Town. I'd say your getting tunnely on Firescreamer and should probably put more focus on others, but the indicated strength of your other reads seems fine for this point in time so it doesn't look like you've lacked focus on others.

[Alchemist21]

@Titus

On a serious note. VOTE: FireScreamer.

His play feels off from last game.

{FrankJaeger, Brian Skies, Narna}
{Alchemist, Green Crayons}
{davesaz, Titus, shannon, RoryMK, Necta}
{Umlaut, FireScreamer}

If FireScreamer is red, I'm willing to bet Shannon is too.

VOTE: shannon

Is anyone allowed to ask why or are you wanting to engage Shannon herself?

Also, the likelyhood of mafia last game being mafia this game will actually probably be unlikely. So I'm pretty confident in the team being green this time around. But TB definitely rolled some of our bloc from last game as red this one. I'm willing to bet on it being FS of all people.

This was Comm's first reads list in the game and it came before you gave any. The strength of some of his reads has changed, but it's still pretty similar to what he has now, so if you think he's copy/pasting your reads or something you're wrong.

[Alchemist21]

I can't speak for Comm but I didn't see Titus's post as a question. Did it look like one to you?

No, it doesn't look like a question to me either.

[Alchemist21]

I can't speak for Comm but I didn't see Titus's post as a question. Did it look like one to you?

Are you semanticing the fuck out of my questions and chainsawing the fuck so he doesn't have to answer or address the concerns?

Alchemist is addressing the concerns at least, but still interrupting.

I "interrupted" because your concerns are easily laid to rest by just comparing your two ISO's.

[Alchemist21]

@firebringer

What are your reads aside from Firescreamer and Gamma?

[Alchemist21]

I just get cranky with a lack of murder.

[Alchemist21]

@firebringer

What are your reads aside from Firescreamer and Gamma?

Weak Town reads on Rory and Brian as town.
Semi Strong Scum read on Shannon for her push on Gamma.

So were you serious about saying she scumclaimed? Cuz I didn't see it.

What's Town about Rory? I figured I was misreading him tone-wise but I still have him as null.

[Alchemist21]

I think it's dumb that a50 tried to throw suspicion on Comm for that.

[Alchemist21]

Like it sounds like you may be onto something a60, but I don't sees it.

It's simple: If you don't have a PT then why ask someone if they use their mod account to view PTs? What even triggers the idea into your mind if you do NOT have a PT to begin with?

Because maybe he wants to know what keeps mods from cheating at the game?

Counter-question: Why didn't Comm ask it in the

last

game, since Comm was scum and Rory was Town?

I'm now suspicious of Davesaz for following on a50's point. He was there last game, he should know better.

[Alchemist21]

I think it's dumb that a50 tried to throw suspicion on Comm for that.

I'm reasonably sure that the topic came up before. I wonder what you said then, if anything.

All I remember is Comm asking the question and Rory giving the answer. If anyone actually suspected Comm back then I missed it.

[Alchemist21]

I tried reading last night, but I just couldn't focus and I didn't want to do a crappy job. I'm fully aware my input in this game has been pretty crappy, no need to point that out. I'm struggling to get solid reads. Hopefully my catchup will change that.

@Rory, I was just curious as to if you could see the PT's because let's say there was a game with PT's outside of scum chat, if you were able to see it and playing in that game you'd know there'd non-mafia with PT's ongoing. But that's cool. Makes sense to do it that way to prevent things like that.

Also I've had two games with Frank, one as both town and one as both mafia. I'd like to think I got a feel for him. As far as Narna goes? I only had a single game where I was mafia and she was town. I'd like to think I know how town her acts.

Yeah it doesn't work like that. I can only see PT's people give me access to. If I want to play a micro(my queue), I will always make sure to notify the mod that I'm playing so I never get any information I shouldn't get. If I somehow do get information, I will immediately replace out to avoid the game getting compromised.

So what is it about Frank specifically that makes you townread him?
How could you possibly know Narna's scum game if you haven't played with scum Narna? I can understand if you would lean town on him for stuff he did, but a solid townread seems a bit much here. Can you elaborate on why you have such a strong townread on Narna?

---

- I don't really buy GC's case on Brian Skies at all. It takes balls to engage a vocal player like Skies though, so even though I don't support it, I think he's more likely town for it.

---

Spoiler: Alchemist wall

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Kinda agree with this. Hard to say if he's just like this on early D1 though.

Rorys posts look disingenuous.

Is there a reason you still haven't moved your RVS vote if you think that's true?

Do you have any other reads?

It also feels like he tried to turn it around on Frank here.

VOTE: Rory

Can you explain where I went wrong by asking Frank 2 questions in an attempt to get him involved?

It looks like you're trying to discredit his point against you by challenging his lack of vote.

How am I discrediting his point? I ask him if he has a reason not to move his RVS vote and followup by asking if he has other reads.
Maybe he has a scumread on that player now, and didn't mention it.

It looks like the message you were sending was "if you really thought that you would vote me," and I see that as a subtle discredit attempt.

How do you feel about it, now that I've explained it? Does it still bother you?

Maybe I was misreading you and I'll adjust my read if I see reason to, but it still bothers me and I haven't seen a reason to Townread you.

I know you said you're struggling to get solid reads, but what are your reads right now?

Yeah, 851. Comm was asking if Rory could see PT's and Rory told him how PT access works.

Now if you or anyone else expressed suspicion over that point before today, please point it out, because as far as I know nobody thought this in particular was scummy and you saying you've always thought that now after the replacement points it out is suspicious to me.

[Alchemist21]

Davewagon gentlemen?9

I'm be down for it.

VOTE: Davesaz

[Alchemist21]

I'm getting drunk and watching anime with a friend. So reply will be sporadic but ill be around for most of the night

What series?

[Alchemist21]

Re 1384 I believe there was commentary on that. On my iPad so harder than usual to check.

Petit, yes that is a point and one of the reasons I'm unsure on Comm town.

This post sounded like you already had the thought. If that's wrong then fine, I can see how I made that mistake. Doesn't change the idea that you should know it's not a reason to suspect Comm.

[Alchemist21]

I'm getting drunk and watching anime with a friend. So reply will be sporadic but ill be around for most of the night

What series?

One Punch Man and Space Dandy

2 excellent choices!

[Alchemist21]

Commit to Space Dandy. It's the winner of the two.

This is a cheer up a sad friend thing so I'm not driving what we do.

Oh shit watch out for Space Dandy then. Some episodes will hit you in the feels.

[Alchemist21]

These are my reads as they sit
Town: Rory, Titus, shannon, CommKnight, Alchemist, Firebringer, Green Crayons, Brian Skies
Nullscum: FS, Narna
Scum: Umlaut, Davesaz
Narna is nullscum since I've never seen him as scum but this doesn't look like his townplay.
VOTE: Firescreamer

Interesting. A wagon starts on Dave, your stronger scumread, and you move to firescreamer.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Alchemist21]

Didn't notice that

Oh look. You posted in thread after the 3 Dave votes, and 5 minutes before the Titus thread was posted.

[Alchemist21]

*correction: 7 minutes. I brainfarted on the simple math.

[Alchemist21]

Sure you weren't. You didn't know if the attempt was worth it. Unfortunately for you, it wasn't.

[Alchemist21]

The timing of that switch onto me is pretty dumb and there's plenty of time to push your real scumreads.

Come back to Gamma. I'm hella confident in him flipping scum at this point. He had to have seen the 3 votes on Dave. Regardless of the actual size of your wagon 3 votes with him adding a 4th would have made a solid wagon. Even if that Titus thread had convinced him to start working with people and get off his vanity wagon, he should have liked the Dave wagon according to his reads and the number of votes. The sudden vote onto you is active resistance to that wagon.

[Alchemist21]

I don't understand why he waited till now to vote me. I do t understand that from scum either. He votes me as a counterwagon to dave but not to himself?

I think he might have just hesitated to consider whether he wanted to vote you or not. Honestly the Titus thread could have influenced his decision but the timing is comical if he's Town and the actual switch doesn't mesh with his reads.

Take it as a given that Gamma's scum here. If Dave is scum he could want to be seen as scumreading his buddy while not actually wanting to bus, or leaving the door open to bus if he absolutely has to. If Dave is Town, Gamma could want to not be on the Dave wagon when Dave flips, or this could be a higher level tactic to set up false associations with Dave if he flips later on.

Of the above scenarios I'm not quite sure which it is, but the move from Gamma definitely looks like it was scum motivated to me. There is also one thing from Dave that could associate the two, but it's a minor point that doesn't leave me completely sold on them being scum together.

[Alchemist21]

@Comm, If I had to put a number to my confidence on Gamma it would be 90%.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist, then I'll make you a deal since I trust you this game. (I'd say 95% sure you're town. Can't ever be 100% sure D1, but your play and when you explain my own play out to people who just aren't getting me. Scum would not do that).

So my deal I make with you is help me push FS for a claim at the least here. If it's acceptable (and no counter claims) then I'll vote Gamma with you. But if he gets countered... I'm hanging his ass.

Fastposted a few times. Because I said I'd be on her to figure her out. Not that she's 100% scum.

Yeah I'm not doing that. I'm actually Townreading FS and I don't believe in voting my Townreads.

[Alchemist21]

Hmm... Giving it to D2 might be ok, but I can't say I trust his claim. We went through a lot of hell last game over this sort of thing.

[Alchemist21]

@Green Crayons:

Basically my case on Davesaz:

OK, so I was going through my own predecessor (shannon)'s ISO and I cam across an interesting reference to what Comm had asked of Rory here:

Also, you never answered my question. When you play a game, do you avoid the PT area of the forum on your moderator account?

I don't care if about the misconception of whether or not someone could see PTs (or INTO PTs). The question itself though sound pretty damning.

It's practically confessing to having a PT for starters

.

However, PTs could be for Masons as well as for Scum, but then if Comm thought Rory could have looked into his PT then he knows Rory -presumably- already knows what he saw (i.e. knows Comm's alignment).

Let me reiterate: I do NOT believe Rory looked into anything (that would be cheating, duh!). It's how Comm asked and how he went about it that is bothering me.

For fairness, and because I may have misunderstood I will simply ask Comm to explain exactly what was going through his head when he asked this, and I would also ask everyone to point out where this has been addressed and explained later (if ever).

Re 1384 I believe there was commentary on that. On my iPad so harder than usual to check.

Petit, yes that is a point and one of the reasons I'm unsure on Comm town.

Like it sounds like you may be onto something a60, but I don't sees it.

It's simple: If you don't have a PT then why ask someone if they use their mod account to view PTs? What even triggers the idea into your mind if you do NOT have a PT to begin with?

Because maybe he wants to know what keeps mods from cheating at the game?

Counter-question: Why didn't Comm ask it in the

last

game, since Comm was scum and Rory was Town?

I'm now suspicious of Davesaz for following on a50's point. He was there last game, he should know better.

Basically my case on Gamma:

These are my reads as they sit
Town: Rory, Titus, shannon, CommKnight, Alchemist, Firebringer, Green Crayons, Brian Skies
Nullscum: FS, Narna
Scum: Umlaut, Davesaz
Narna is nullscum since I've never seen him as scum but this doesn't look like his townplay.
VOTE: Firescreamer

Interesting. A wagon starts on Dave, your stronger scumread, and you move to firescreamer.

Who will you choose?

[Alchemist21]

And now I have a BIG problem: I don't have anyone to vote! Like; Gamma claimed, FS softed, Comm TRs Alch and I have a Town Lean on Comm. Even the merging dave wagon has been ruined by Gamma switching from voting FS with Dave to voting save with FS.

Say, why did the Brian wagon die? Serious question here. I thought that was a think in the opening few pages but nobody's voting him anymore. Did he town it up? Were you guys just playing? What?

P-edit: LOL@Crayons. Fall in line my friend.

Neither you nor Gamma were there for the last roll, but we had a couple issues when it came to these 1-shot claims.

For starters Comm claimed 1-shot Doc with the intention of getting a partner to claim the full Doc later on that would validate both their claims.

When Umlaut claimed 1-shot roleblocker, we had to go through everyone looking for the full roleblocker and scum was actually able to nab that claim (I mean this whole issue was due to the mod error that caused the reboot, but I think it still illustrates my point).

Scum claiming 1-shot roleblocker here opens the door for a scum roleblocker to openly claim and get Townread for it because the claims appear to validate each other. It's why I'm not trusting 1-shot claims, especially for a roleblocker.

[Alchemist21]

But we can (and probably SHOULD) lynch him on D2, bar a Cop guilty or something.

We could put it off to D2, but I don't see why we CAN'T do it today. Even if he's a Town 1-shot rb we'd still have the

hidden, full

Town roleblocker in the game. You're saying you don't know where to vote right now, and I'm saying Gamma's still a good choice.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Rory

[Alchemist21]

That pic came out bigger than I expected.

But seriously, Brian where is that Rory vote coming from? Are you caught up on the game?

[Alchemist21]

True, a vig could save us the trouble. With that kind of plan though don't we need to make him announce his target before the Day ends? Otherwise we won't get any useful info from his action.

[Alchemist21]

Announcing the target ahead of time causes more problems than it solves though, I think. Scum could easily work around it.

[Alchemist21]

I mean I thought the plan was hoping he was gonna die AND use his action in the same night.

It's cool if you don't wanna lynch the claim, but I'm not as lenient on it due to last game.

[Alchemist21]

But seriously, Brian where is that Rory vote coming from? Are you caught up on the game?

I've caught up and I don't know why you're asking me this.

It was just so out of the blue. The last few pages had been focused on others and you suddenly voting Rory was just unexpected. Do you have any comments on the past few pages?

[Alchemist21]

Thoughts on Gamma and his claim?

[Alchemist21]

And how much longer do you honestly expect to stay alive at this point?

[Alchemist21]

*sigh*

You realize the people putting you off until D2 are doing so to give you the chance to use your shot, right?

You realize that if you are Town you are now in scum's crosshairs as a PR, right?

Town wants you dead. If you're Town, scum want you dead. When everyone wants you dead, you're not gonna live long enough to see a pay-off in waiting for your actions.

[Alchemist21]

Speaking of last game:

viewtopic.php?p=9112107#p9112107

viewtopic.php?p=9112933#p9112933

viewtopic.php?p=9113290#p9113290

So many predictions that came true. Firebringer replacing in, the FEC ban, the 1-shot claim happening again.

viewtopic.php?p=9113525#p9113525

I'm just waiting for the reveal that Gamma is scum hoping to claim with his partner like Comm did.

viewtopic.php?p=9113051#p9113051

And based on that post I'm guessing Titus is going to advocate waiting until tomorrow to lynch Gamma as well.

[Alchemist21]

Shit we still got 40 pages to go man.

[Alchemist21]

1. Why are we all voting davesaz?
   
2. Why are we all not voting CommKnight?
   
3. Re. how to approach claims like this: assuming the game isn't mod errored again, I don't think we can really generalize from what happened last time. The only one who "got away with" claiming one-shot was Comm, and that was a doc claim.

The same principles which make it a good fake claim still apply. The margins are smaller on role blocker because it's significantly less likely. But it's also significantly less likely.

Before he posted I was expecting Umlaut to advocate for lynching the claim based on Comm's play last game and the small odds the game has BB in it.

[Alchemist21]

And I don't think a single person has given a decent reason for lynching Dave as it is.

Davesaz has been tunnelling me all game and not focused on the game as a whole.

This isn't true. He has placed focus elsewhere in most of his posts.

[Alchemist21]

viewtopic.php?p=9113051#p9113051

I don't think Titus' stance towards Gamma here is really out of line from what she said last game. What she said about Dave tunneling her was scummy, but this attitude towards Gamma's claim isn't.

[Alchemist21]

That said, Gamma and Titus both being on Dave makes me not want to lynch Dave and would rather move to Titus if I have to move off Gamma.

[Alchemist21]

MATH POST AHOY

We already know there is no IC, which slightly raises the likelihood of any other town PR. This is accounted for in the numbers below.

Regarding the plausibility of Gamma's claim:

• The probability that the game contains a 1-shot roleblocker is ~4.4%.
  
• If there is a full roleblocker, that probability goes up to ~14%.
  
• There is still a ~28% chance of having a town roleblocker even if there is no town one-shot roleblocker.
  
• I don't know the base rate at which scum claim 1-shot blocker, but maybe someone who's played a lot of C9++ has an idea.
  
• Existence of a full roleblocker is the only thing that
  especially
  corroborates a one-shot roleblocker claim. (Existence of a Mafia roleblocker or godfather also makes a one-shot RB more likely, but only in the sense that it makes any town PR more likely.)

Conditional on the truth of Gamma's claim, these are the multiplicity distributions for each letter:

Spoiler: Here be tables

T count	Prob
0	1.960%
1	11.216%
2	26.472%
3	32.686%
4	21.517%
5	6.148%

C count	Prob
0	40.194%
1	39.968%
2	16.151%
3	3.323%
4	0.349%
5	0.015%

D count	Prob
0	55.439%
1	34.597%
2	8.761%
3	1.127%
4	0.074%
5	0.002%

V count	Prob
0	55.439%
1	34.597%
2	8.761%
3	1.127%
4	0.074%
5	0.002%

M count	Prob
0	87.812%
2	12.103%
4	0.084%
5	0.002%

B count	Prob
2	99.457%
4+	0.543%

Strongest immediate implications of the claim (aside from existence of a full blocker) are:

• The probability of a Mafia roleblocker increases, from ~73% to ~94%.
  
• The probability of only two mafia decreases, from ~27% to ~6.1%.
  
• The already-unlikely events of two cops (8.3%) and two vigs (2.9%) are further lowered, to 3.7% and 1.2% respectively.

Can you explain how the odds of the 1-shot rb existing are 4.4%?
I just assumed since it needs BB it would be (5/100)*(5/100) = .0025 = 0.25% odds.

[Alchemist21]

Can you explain how the odds of the 1-shot rb existing are 4.4%?
I just assumed since it needs BB it would be (5/100)*(5/100) = .0025 = 0.25% odds.

I haven't done the math, but since 3 B's doesn't give a 1-shot roleblocker, you're adding the probability of getting exactly 2 B's + the probability of getting at least 4 B's.

The probability of getting 4 B's is so low that it doesn't add much to change the .25%.

I also don't see how Firescreamer's post helps trying to fix my math.

[Alchemist21]

Not RB.

[Alchemist21]

No one currently townreads me besides Titus.
I am very viable wagon for those who want it.

Not sure why it isn't happening given the amount of people who seem to want it.

I'm Townreading you too. What's your actual read on Titus right now?

[Alchemist21]

take a long walk off a short pier.

Is this a common expression for people? Because that's fucking hilarious!

[Alchemist21]

She's TRing you to neutralize you at worst, and to get you in her pocket at best. You're one of those players who automatically SR who SRs you and vise versa most of the time, and especially so at the start of the game. It's easy to play you like this, mate.

No, I don't.
I townread people who scumread me for reasons ic ha understand.
I scumread people who scumread me when their reasoning makes no sense.

I have scumread people for townreading me when I tried to act scummy.

I am not that kind of person who auto townreads people just for townreading me lol.
I don't even expect people to townread me in this game right now.

Not sure why alchemist has a townread on me besides previous slot.

I've seen gamesolvey posts from you and I still hold firm in my belief that gamesolvey firebringer is Town firebringer.

[Alchemist21]

They're gonna let twilight last until 90-something pages then lock the thread when we have our high hopes for 100 pages.

[Alchemist21]

@Alchemist: Hypothetically speaking, if you were a Vigilante, who would you shoot of the trio of Titus/Narna/Firebringer?

Well I'm never shooting Firebringer. Titus is likely sorted by the Day game either way on Gamma's flip. So I'd shoot Narna.

[Alchemist21]

Why were those 3 the options?

[Alchemist21]

C'mon man that meme got old 75 pages ago. The new bloods probably don't even get it.

Also what happened in that Trinity game sounds like the opposite of what happened to me in Twin Trap. Never thought I'd bring that game up again, but I'm pretty much over it.

[Alchemist21]

Oh shit he actually did the thing.

[Alchemist21]

I meant firescreamer

[Alchemist21]

gg all!

Thanks to TB and Ari!

[Alchemist21]

My whole pregame strategy was to be scummy enough to be copped without being scummy enough to be lynched. Having the cop get killed was a worst case scenario.
I guess I take away from this that I'm no longer serious lynch bait like I used to be.

The no kill on N1 was from thinking the "Dave is SK" movement would gain enough velocity, and being worried that there was nobody I could kill that would be safe from suspicion.
The other no kills were from wanting to keep the no SK path alive if there were another town PR, by being able to finesse the 1 shot vs full. Really surprised that not claiming flew so long.

Titus, the scumread was indeed real, I was not making it up. I saw serious activity level differences from what I'm used to.
Math, sorry for shooting you on replace in, it was the only reasonable "leashed" kill I could make.

Related to this I saw something in the Mafia thread from TB I disagree with. He said your investigation immunity would have given a "no result" had I investigated you. Without an RB, such a message basically confirms you as an investigation immune SK anyway and makes the power moot. It doesn't specify this in the wiki page for this setup, but I firmly believe investigation immunity should give innocent results to Cops instead of a "no result" message.

[Alchemist21]

Oh yeah, Dave how does it feel to have been an SK twice now knowing that people go their whole lives never drawing 3p roles?