Matrix6 BP fix

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Post Post #25 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:29 pm

Post by Ircher »

Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.
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Post Post #26 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:30 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.
I personally intend to make Newbies great again
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Post Post #27 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:34 pm

Post by UpTooLate »

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.
This isn't a thread about IC quality control, and that's a project currently being worked on.

The BP strategy is not how newbies should be introduced to the site. Period. "Here's a setup, let's find a way to get around it." As it's been stated before, the BP can then easily get less invested because they are pretty much conftown and don't need to worry about saving themselves. It's just a slippery slope we don't need in the Newbie Queue.
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Post Post #28 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:43 pm

Post by momo »

maybe a one-shot or two-shot doctor.

just my 2 cents but what do yall think...
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Post Post #29 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:46 pm

Post by Toomai »

In post 24, mhsmith0 wrote:True, but it's IMO less of an unbalancing issue than BP auto claiming and then tracker knows that he's dealing with a doc if there's no BP claim.
I agree with this. (To be honest I knew it was a weak reason to start with; I just wanted to introduce the name "Backup6". Because it has a Backup and is a backup to Matrix6. It's like irony or something.)
In post 25, Ircher wrote:The BP strategy improves winrates.
Is that actually proven in practice though? I don't keep stats on it because using a strategy is not an easily trackable thing, but I heard someone else is.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #30 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:08 pm

Post by Ircher »

If it doesn't improve winrates, why is used?
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Post Post #31 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:09 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

It's a very low sample size thing, but IIRC it's not a major improvement. It ALSO creates a situation where a doctor fakeclaim becomes much more teneble in goon-goon, since once all claim BP or tracker, you have 50% odds of it being cop only, PLUS you have an easy built-in excuse for being alive after said fakeclaim ("I got roleblocked"). Amusingly, doctor fakeclaim was tried in 1774 and it was JK/goon/goon, and the fakeclaiming scum got autolynched :D
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Post Post #32 (ISO) » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:09 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 30, Ircher wrote:If it doesn't improve winrates, why is used?
because people THINK it will improve win rates
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Post Post #33 (ISO) » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:47 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

FEELING SO FAITHLESS LOST UNDER THE SURFACE
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
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Post Post #34 (ISO) » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:48 pm

Post by RadiantCowbells »

DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE EXPECTING OF ME
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Post Post #35 (ISO) » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:16 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

make osbp active instead of passive, thoughts
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Post Post #36 (ISO) » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:38 pm

Post by FireScreamer »

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Matrix6 is fine as-is imo. The BP strategy improves winrates.
If anything nedds improving, it's quality control on ICs.
Follow the Cop was fairly balanced. There's precedent to changing the newbie set up when it fails to provide a quality experience for newbies going back to the very start.
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Post Post #37 (ISO) » Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:39 pm

Post by Toomai »

In post 35, Lycanfire wrote:make osbp active instead of passive, thoughts
Would ruin town's already-shaky winrate in the BP setups, and newbie setups should probably keep to Normal roles for best education of site meta.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #38 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:47 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 37, Toomai wrote:
In post 35, Lycanfire wrote:make osbp active instead of passive, thoughts
Would ruin town's already-shaky winrate in the BP setups, and newbie setups should probably keep to Normal roles for best education of site meta.
Also the problem is that BP roles are incentivized to claim D1 (and towns are debatably incentivized to push for their claim or no claim), and this change fails to solve that problem.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #39 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:59 am

Post by Creature »

Wait, Universal Backup?

So if Mafia Roleblocker is lynched then town gets a Town Roleblocker?
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Post Post #40 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:07 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

UB only inherits roles from its own team. So can only inherit the JK role in column A, or tracker in row 3.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #41 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:25 am

Post by Accountant »

Just throwing something out there - Mafia Encryptor? I enjoyed the daytalk experiment.
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Post Post #42 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:28 pm

Post by FireScreamer »

Day talk is a giant game changer and adds a lot of complexity to someone's first game.
In the dark, it's nearly invisible—until it exhales.
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Post Post #43 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:31 pm

Post by Accountant »

No it doesn't. It's a game changer, sure, but the point of this thread is to change the setup.

It doesn't add any complexity at all. Why the hell would a newbie fid the concept of day talk confusing? They already can grasp night talk, just extend it to day.
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Post Post #44 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:31 pm

Post by Toomai »

We're trying to change a reasonably-balanced setup as little as possible to disable the popular new claim strategy being paraded around. Let's not tweak more than what's needed.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #45 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:32 pm

Post by FireScreamer »

Not conceptually but it adds a level of complexity to both forming reads and carrying those leads through to a lynch.
In the dark, it's nearly invisible—until it exhales.
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Post Post #46 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:34 pm

Post by FireScreamer »

In post 39, Creature wrote:Wait, Universal Backup?

So if Mafia Roleblocker is lynched then town gets a Town Roleblocker?
I've seen this mistake been made often enough by actual good players that it needs a line in the rules specifically refuting it
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Post Post #47 (ISO) » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:34 pm

Post by FireScreamer »

Of the hypothetical newbie setup of course
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Post Post #48 (ISO) » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:48 pm

Post by Toomai »

Quickly thrown-together example role PM wrote:You are a
Town Universal Backup
. The first time a town-aligned player who is not a Vanilla Townie dies, you will inherit their role. You will receive the new role PM immediately once the other player has died. You will not receive information about any of that player's previous actions or results. If you die, you will be flipped as "Town Universal Backup" in all circumstances.
This should be required reading for...everyone for anything, really.
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Post Post #49 (ISO) » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:21 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

Matrix-5 Setup
(Designed by Creaure)

This setup came about in a discussion on how to improve Matrix 6. One of the problems that RadiantCowbells discovered was that Matrix-6 can be broken by a series of BP/Not-BP claims. From here, Matrix-5 was born.
this is a meme now right
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