Matrix6 BP fix

[drealmerz7]

key is to have newbie games focus on the value of scum-hunting, not on role-interactions being a crutch to game-solve

[drealmerz7]

make the newbie setup 7 vts and 2 goons.
that always works.

it's still important for them to get familiar with basic roles and role-interactions, but those familiarizations shouldn't take precedence over learning to scumhunt either

[drealmerz7]

also not claiming unnecessarily (until put to L-1), like it should be, works

ppl making this all too complicated, just making towns stupider

[drealmerz7]

no, it's not, really it is so not

[drealmerz7]

Alternatively, you could just have a site meta where people don't policy lynch the BP claims later in the game, and then suddenly there's much less utility to the claim strategy in the first place. But since that's not really on the table, instead we are discussing swapping the BP with some other role that has strong incentive not to claim d1, eliminating the issue wholesale.

let's get it on the table and shift site-meta, it really needs to happen anyway, and this is a great place to start

[drealmerz7]

I wonder if better ICs could in fact just fix the entire problem without having to alter the setup.

better ICs would do wonders in many regards imo

[drealmerz7]

1.) noobs learning to be scumtastic as town
2.) noobs learning horrible mafia theory

[drealmerz7]

I think that sort of role is just too non-basic for noob games

modifiers and hoods, just too much

I really think it is fine how it is and we need to work on shifting site meta

[drealmerz7]

perhaps not if you are asking me that question

I thought I knew what friendly modifier was, know what neighbor is, sooo...maybe I'm mistaken on it, and I'm going to look

[drealmerz7]

oh, okay then

well, shit, even more reason not to put it in a noob game, that will just add confusion to understanding neighbors

why isn't that role just called "friend" ????

[drealmerz7]

I seriously thought friendly was a modifier that did not allow whoever had the modifier to be killed by someone of the same alignment (really just a town modifier)

(so if you have a friendly towny they can't be vigged by a town vig, or a friendly tracker can't be PGOd, etc.) - heh

[drealmerz7]

clearly I was making assumptions based on my own brain trying tofigure it out rather than any imperical knowledge

[drealmerz7]

town BP should never claim town BP unless they are put to L-1 - just like any other claim, really

you want scum to not know who the BP is so they waste a shot on them, it's really basic

if anything the BP can hint at being a PR to try and draw the NK and make scum waste the shot

or at least have great involvement, teamwork, and scumhunting attempts to try and draw the NK

you see how the matrix6 is setup? there is a town JK in column A where the BP is also located

that means if there is no NK, scum don't know if they were JKed, their target was JKed, or if their target was the BP

if any change could even be considered to the matrix6, I'd say add another mafiaRB to it in the 1C or 3B positions so that they are even more unable to figure out what the setup is, but I really think it is pretty perfect how it is

[drealmerz7]

There have been multiple explanations from multiple people stating why an early BP claim is better than an early pther-PR claim(unless of course it's the tracker claim afterwards).

and they're wrong

[drealmerz7]

the same could be argued of any role, or of drawing scum, rb

it gives opportunity for learning

[drealmerz7]

rb, you're also operating under the false assumption that new players can't be good

[drealmerz7]

Random lynching in 7v2 mountainous with a compulsive night kill by scum gets you 29.8% town win, 70.2% scum win.

Perfect scum win = 78% * 71% * 60% = 33%
Perfect town win = 22% * 14% = 3.2%
Town win w one mislynch = ... = 8.3%
Town win w two mislynches = ... = 18.4%
Scum win w one correct lynch = ... = 37%

And then to make an analogue to actual experience you account for town's ability to scum hunt, as well as scum's ability to influence the lynch. Of course, doing so is complicated so mainly you just acknowledge those things exist and that the random lynching model is illustrative more than precise.

with day chat or night chat only?

[drealmerz7]

bodyguard is a great role

it also encourages TEAMWORK

it's not about personal triumph and ego, it's about helping the team and learning how to help your team

[drealmerz7]

Well that and the Tracker knowing he's guaranteed to live the night after he claims and possibly more:

If a tracker knows that he's either with a doc or a bg, he's debatably incentivized to claim sometime day 1. The reason why tracker d1 claims are antitown currently is that there's a 50% chance that he dies immediately N1 if shot because it's a BP that can't actually do anything. The relatively nice aspect of a UB there is that tracker is a sitting duck if he claims d1 50% of the time. Also bodyguard still sucks as a role, and jk/bg/rb is probably even more scumsided than the current jk/bp/rb.

again, if you add a mafRB to 1C or 3B it will help this

[drealmerz7]

I think daychat is a HUGE scum advantage and really messes with balance

[drealmerz7]

The point is that the BP sucks as a role if you don't pull the kill before the PR is dead, making it better to get confirmed instantly than get shot at which in best case puts town to evens, which is useless unless you lynch at least one scum. Make the backup always be a tracker, which isn't guaranteed to not be garbage. An extra jailkeeper is an odds at what the BP is meant to be: weak.

absolute nonsense

BP drawing the NK at any point acts as adding an extra VT to the game, it's extremely powerful

you can also think of it as a doctor who can only self-heal, every Night, until an attempt is made on their life and then they lose their ability

[drealmerz7]

*gets out jousting sticks*

GO FOR THE EYES! YAAAA

[drealmerz7]

better ICs/SEs would take care of that, imo - leave the matrix alone, fix site meta - I know I know, I've said this before

*hug nancy*

[drealmerz7]

[drealmerz7]

it would certainly get the win ratio up for noob games, but I think it would make noobs learn to play WORSE and not actually help

it'd just help them learn to rely on mods/PRs doing the work for them, that's not a fix for anything