Mini Normal 1890 - Endgame

[Papa Zito]

Hello friends I'll be your MoI for the evening.

[Papa Zito]

Right now I'm reading Sheep vs Grey and it's making me doubt humanity's longterm prospects.

Hello moose tell me about whoever Cloud is.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah man that's what I'm here for.

I completed my Sheep iso and I'm A. pretty convinced he(?)'s town despite one red flag and B. super curious who the main is.

[Papa Zito]

Dats racist.

Hello and yeah tell me about Cloud?

[Papa Zito]

Cloud is scum.

ok yes I gathered you think this from the vote but could you tell me why? I haven't read everything yet, help a guy out.

[Papa Zito]

Naw I get it, I mean that's the whole point of playing under an alt. I'm not demanding your identity I'm just wondering if you're someone I know.

Currently reading -Grey- wish me luck.

[Papa Zito]

Cloud your arguments here are weird.

Like, I dunno what you've done to get to L-1 and you clearly have some time on your hands to do something about it yet you're talking about weird gamestate theory instead of addressing whatever caused this wagon to form on you in the first place.

Why aren't you actually addressing what caused the votes to begin with or, if you don't know why, actually engaging with your voters instead of making all these woe is me conspiracy theories?

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: cloud

I swear to fucking god

If you are town

and you're selfvoting

which would make

three

in the last

two

fucking games

I will stop playing mafia on this site

And I will bookmark this post

And if anyone ever asks me why I will just post the link

I am so done

[Papa Zito]

VOTE: Key

For the reasoning stated yesterday, he wanted that wagon elsewhere, and my VCA on him continues to point at that slot.

He wanted that wagon elsewhere? I see a lot of votes and chatter about the Elena slot. How do you figure?

[Papa Zito]

What is your evidence of actual intent for that lynch?
Because I see nothing.

Well, here's what I see in the iso:

1767: You vote Elena - I include this because this starts the chain of events
1768: He asks why
1770: He votes Elena based on Boonskiies 1769
1789: He calls out her replacement request
1813: He reiterates Boon's case
1861: "Cloudkicker's slot can die right now" - his vote is still here
1880: Calls Cloud a liar
1886: Redirects Boon back to Cloud
1841: ALL CAPS wants Elena slot dead
1966: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon
1971: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon
1973: Requests your vote on Cloud wagon
1983: Votes you. You two had been having a bit of a back-and-forth at this point that I haven't really read
2008: Still would rather lynch Cloud
2015: Revotes Cloud
2022: Says Cloud is scum


In conclusion: Other than a blip of about 30 posts where he shifts his vote to you, after 1767 when the wagon forms his vote stays on the Elena/Cloud slot. In addition the vast majority of his posting after joining the wagon is about wanting the slot dead. I have no idea how you can read this and conclude that you "see nothing".

[Papa Zito]

I'll read ZZZX at lunch.

[Papa Zito]

Well that was quick.

[1]I get half of what you added on about Elena. But honestly speaking doesn't like half of the player list do the same.

[2]Also I don't see that much pressure on Elena that would force her to like you know. Force replace as scum/town/goat/whatever. I take the replace again as NAI

This is in response to Boonskiies' 1782. [1]Is a soft defense of Elena - it translates to "you can't scumread Elena for this when other players do it too!" Which I haven't checked the veracity of but can. [2] is just factually incorrect, Elena was at L-2 at this time, and is again defending a Elena.

I have no reads on Elena, but boon's reason is good so yeah

OK I do townread boon but I still can't read half his posts this game. Can you then tell me what you understood from his posts to prove you are not just trying to make up content right now?

This is the start of his attempt to shift attention to Key.

Key's

Flailing last two pages

is so..


FAKKKEEEEEEEE

I hate fakes

VOTE: Key

(Yes I am voting him just for that. Plus being one of the slots that I don't find towny)

I've listed out most of Key's posting already. There was no flailing, just a tunnel on a scum slot.

I am still repeating my wanting of a key lynch~ Or something

ZZZX lurks most of the wagon but does pop in to half-heartedly throw this out. It really feels like the only time he chose to post was when there was some possibility for change (like when I replaced in), but if Sheep wants an example of a player who wasn't actually pushing something here's a great one.

I'm comfortable voting here.

VOTE: ZZZX

[Papa Zito]

Sheep I disagree with pretty much everything you posted there but I'm not going to bog the game down attempting to counter 50 points. What I will say is this:

* I see nothing wrong with examining other players while leaving your vote somewhere
* I see nothing wrong with wanting multiple slots lynched
* I see nothing wrong with moving your vote
* I see nothing wrong with agreeing with someone else's case

Honestly I think a lot of your problem with the few posts that weren't about Elena/Cloud that day is that they were about you. I strongly suspect that if he'd been having a separate conversation with say MoI and had voted him for the space of 30 posts (days are irrelevant) then you'd have far less problem with it. #YosShrug

You're welcome to keep arguing this if you want but unless you say something grounded in reality I'm not gonna be interested.

[Papa Zito]

RIP you Ari

Nah, Grey's town, haha.

What brought you to this conclusion Boon?

[Papa Zito]

Grey and I have had A LOT of interaction throughout this game.

Um. Ok. Which of those made you go from an "off-chance" to town?

[Papa Zito]

I'm only gonna do this once and move on FYI.

1. Nor do I - but I do see a problem in suggesting it suggests a strong desire to lynch a given player.

I have a strong desire to lynch 2 players atm. I've had a strong desire to lynch 5+ players in games before. There's nothing scummy about this in the least. Particularly given the context of what was going on (you and he were arguing and he felt your arguments were dumb)

2. Nor do I, and said nothing to suggest that - i do see an issue with sheeping onto a wagon advanced by your top scumread though.

I don't recall him saying Boon was a top scumread but even if he was I don't see how that's relevant. If scum want to bus each other what's the problem with helping them do it?

3. Nor do I, and never said I did - I did say I saw the vote move as, specificaly, having a goal to not see a given slot lynched.

If that was the case the switch would've lasted more than 30 posts and would've followed the posting behavioral pattern he had with Elena/Cloud.

4. Nor do I - I do think his failure to ever explain it, suggests he didn't understand it/didn't care what it was, which supports my stance that it was empty.

I don't see how re-explaining someone else's case is relevant to anything. (I love the irony of this coming from someone named Cooperative Sheep btw)


I'll reiterate you're free to do w/e you want and I think you're town so more power to you I guess but I'll remind you that we're extremely likely in mylo here.

[Papa Zito]

I'm only gonna do this once and move on FYI.

@Boon: I have massive as ZZZX's partner. Does this make sense to you?

[Papa Zito]

Good deal.

Our problem today is that we'll four votes to get ZZZX lynched and with Sheep going off on a tangent that's not likely to happen. Fortunately if we don't reach a majority by deadline we'll just end up with a no lynch and we'll only need 3 tomorrow.


@Grey, it does. Lack of interactions, lack of wagon presence, attempts at counters, it all fits pretty well.

[Papa Zito]

ilu guys pls play mafia with me

[Papa Zito]

You're still refusing to discuss my clearly stated issue

This is correct. I'm not going to bog the game down in a useless argument.

[Papa Zito]

The question you should be asking, Sheep, is if ZZZX isn't scum why didn't he get hammered for the win at L-1?

[Papa Zito]

You don't think we're at 4-2 right now?

huh

[Papa Zito]

PZ's bringing up the 4-2 seems more unlikely as scum than town, but it's really NAI. I'm wondering who he forgot was in the game.

I was going off the OP. Which you'll note has been updated.

I can't really answer for whatever MoI was doing, I'm not that guy. What I can say is that based on interactions it's super clear to me that ZZZX is scum, so I see no reason why I shouldn't vote him. I'm trying to rally people onto the wagon because that's what you do when you're convinced you've caught someone, so yes I am indeed trying to get other people to vote ZZZX. I'm not being at all subtle about it.

The rest of your post is a bunch of goofy conjecture. I think you'd seriously benefit from some Occam's Razor.

[Papa Zito]

would you like to actually address his issues rather than pulling another dismissive/insult move like you're doing with me?

It is not making me vibe well towards you at all.

I don't really care what your "vibe" is (lol) I'm here to hunt the scums.

I read through it again and I'm still not seeing much I can actually respond to in this mess. I'll use quotes this time, maybe that'll help.

First, I will again reiterate that I can't speak for anything MoI said or did or thought.

[1]PZ comes in, and says he's pretty sure Sheep is town, despite getting into with him. I've seen PZ do this before, though. NAI. [2]This post makes me feel like Zito's trying to help Cloud get an out. In this case, PZ's post about quitting the site if it was a town self vote and quitting would have been fabricated, which I see why scum would make that decision for the potential town cred. [3]I actually do find it weird that PZ voted pretty early. Last time I played with him, he was very reserved with his vote. [4]It looks as if he could be trying to get both Sheep and I on his side to mislynch ZZZX. [5]I'm confused on what I think about Zito's 4-2 comment. I feel like scum would be more aware of if it was mylo/lylo or not, but he had brought up and interacted with everyone in the game, and I don't know who he would have left out.

Numbered for your convenience.

1. Yes, I am pretty sure Sheep is town. Your second bit "despite getting into with him" is patently false - I've done everything I can to avoid devolving the game with a TvT quotefest. My interactions with that slot are pure disengage.
2. That was clearly not me giving Cloud an "out". That was me starting the scumhunting process. He was the lead wagon but like I said, instead of addressing whatever the case was against him he was making up bizarre conspiracy theories and talking gamestate which I thought was super weird. It made me suspicious because he seemed to be avoiding whatever the actual issue was. For you to believe I was giving him an "out" you'd have to decide that I replaced in and shined a spotlight on him instead of attempting to direct attention elsewhere. In addition, if the scum have daytalk like you also seem to believe, you'd have to decide that after attempting to give him this "out" he didn't take it and hammered himself anyway? What kind of plan is that?

Regarding "a scum making that decision for the potential town cred" - you can take any townie action and view it in this light. In this particular case though, for that accusation to be true you'd have to conclude that I replaced in, saw a game with very little life in it, saw a pile of dead townies, and decided to jump right on my buddy. And you'd also be contradicting your earlier point - was the purpose of the post to "give him an out" or to bus him for town cred?
3. You make this argument again below. I have no idea what you're referring to or by what criteria you judge someone as "reserved" with voting but this is why meta is stupid and bad. I evaluate gamestate and vote as I see appropriate. end of gg no re
4. I'm absolutely trying to get you guys to vote/lynch ZZZX. As I said earlier, I'm not being at all subtle about it. I think he's scum. I want him lynched. There's really no way to spin this as anything but what it is.
5. Again, already addressed this. I was going by the list in the OP. The OP had 6 alive.

[1]Add that into the fact, that PZ, who thought this was lylo and put a vote onto ZZZX, who I also thought to be rather reserved with votes, [2]tried to get Sheep off of key subtly, yet stated a town read sheep, along with Grey's posting early in the day on the ZZZx/massive activity, and me posting suspicion on ZZZx, which you could also figure out I probably thought massive as well, [3]I feel PZ was trying to get grey and myself to vote ZZZx alongside him so he and Key could get the lynch.

More numbering.

1. I'm very confortable in my ZZZX read. I don't know what you mean by reserved and I don't even know what game you're referencing but meta is bad don't do meta. This is a different game in a different state that I replaced into instead of started in and has different players.
2. I'm not being subtle about it. I think Sheep is town. I think Key is town. Obviously I want Sheep off of Key. I want ZZZX dead. I want Sheep to vote ZZZX. Is this plain enough for you?
3. Yes. I want you guys to help me lynch ZZZX. Holy shit.


tl;dr - Yes I'm trying to rally the town to a ZZZX lynch. Yes I think he's clearly scum enough to vote in a mylo even if the OP was wrong and this isn't actually mylo. No nothing in my post history shows me actually trying to help Cloudkicker, please take your meds.

[Papa Zito]

That wasn't an attack, that was a response to Boonskiies Dam Of Nonsense breaking and Sheep deciding that why yes we should take it very seriously since there were Many Words.

If anyone can see ZZZX as town with that kind of reactionary post + things mentioned prior I can't really help you.

[Papa Zito]

U              U    H         H
U              U    H         H
U              U    H         H
U              U    H         H
U              U    H         H
U              U    HHHHHHHHHHH
U              U    H         H
U              U    H         H
U              U    H         H
U              U    H         H
 UUUUUUUUUUUUUU     H         H

[Papa Zito]

You keep saying bullshit but there isn't any. I'm being straight up honest about my intentions. I get that you don't like the target and that's fine but mischaracterizing what I'm doing is zzzz.

It's eerily reminiscent of what Cloud was doing really. Let's not talk about what people are actually saying, let's just throw out a smokescreen instead.

[Papa Zito]

I mean I def prefer to wave away this kind of nonsense but for some reason some people seem to insist on me having this is the kind of conversation so here you go.

[Papa Zito]

You see, at this point everyone is going to be able to make posts that come off as townie.

Is this real life? You posted this right after ZZZX's latest tour de force. Unbelievable.

It's like I was talking to Dr. Jekyll and suddenly Mr Hyde said fuck this shit I don't wanna actually win the game muahahahah and went on a posting rampage.

[Papa Zito]

bump?

[Papa Zito]

No seriously.

[Papa Zito]

What am I missing on Key? Cuz I'm really not seeing him as a partner to Cloud.

[Papa Zito]

istg

[Papa Zito]

I need to reread both of these and will do so first thing in the morning. My gut instinct is keyenpeedee.

How do I make sense as scum with key?

Well I'm sure I can figure out some way, but I'm at least going to try and be objective. But this is WIFOM at best and you know asking it has no good answer.

So be objective and give him an answer. That was a pure dodge.

[Papa Zito]

I'm trying to figure out why you want to be involved in this. I don't feel like you have an investment in me being scum or in Grey being scum so -- why is this important to you specifically?

You're dodging again.

Also I've already stated I think you're ZZZX's partner so bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Papa Zito]

Confirmation bias is a terrible thing.

[Papa Zito]

I do need to read that section, thanks for pointing it out.

[Papa Zito]

I'm re-reading keyenpeydee and got to the point where Twoface outs the masons and the immediate reaction. This is just another example of Grey pushing a non-town agenda (following Boon catching the "scum slip" on 1042, begging MOI to walk him out of reasonable explanation of masons in 1048)

I'm not seeing anything scummy about his reaction. Following Boon on an apparent scumslip in 1042 is fine (also: why ding Grey for this and not Boon himself?). You skipped his 1047 for some reason - this post is a great followup in what he's seeing as a major contradiction at that point. He then asks Magna in 1048 to confirm his theory. Magna debunks in 1050, so Grey moves his vote in 1053. This all looks entirely reasonable to me.

[Papa Zito]

Well my vote's on ZZZX, that's a clue.

[Papa Zito]

Boon I think it should be apparent to you at this point that, if you can't figure out a partner for me that makes sense, you're likely on the wrong track.

[Papa Zito]

Well I've openly defended both key and grey, so now what?

I've also declared both you and Sheep town. Sure not leaving myself many options am I.

Can you articulate a case on me that's based on things I've actually said and done and that's based on concrete facts plz? You're so dead set on me being scum here there must be a really solid foundation that doesn't involve pairings with unflipped players or assigning motivations that don't make sense in context or contradictory conspiracy theories right? Because your wagon doesn't seem to be gaining momentum and if you're really truly and completely sure I'm scum here I'd think you would want to do a better job rallying people to your banner.

[Papa Zito]

I'll take that as a no.

[Papa Zito]

No but you should be trying to convince the others to do so. And your giant mudslide of a post and flipfloppy contradictory reads make it hard for me to figure out what the hell you're thinking and I'm sure that's true for them too. Also I'm not asking you to give "more" I'm asking for you to provide something that's clear, concise and to the point.

[Papa Zito]

Boon your play here is really strange. This is starting to feel personal.

[Papa Zito]

Ok we'll just go with strange.

Let's try a different avenue then. Why is ZZZX town?

[Papa Zito]

As a reminder

Day four will end in (expired on 2017-04-26 18:00:00).

We do not want to no lynch here.

[Papa Zito]

Guys seriously wtf

[Papa Zito]

ugh

[Papa Zito]

Can we listen to Zito now.

[Papa Zito]

You cannot be serious.

[Papa Zito]

literally two people have posted and you're trying to spin that into scum theory

why is this guy still alive

[Papa Zito]

Like, your first sentence complained about not getting a start of day PM. To explain why you weren't here. Yet somehow my not getting instahammered probably means I'm scum, instead of, you know, scum also not getting a damn PM either.

I hope there's a dead thread and I hope they're screaming hate rn.

[Papa Zito]

I don't think Grey is scum tho.

Like both flips yesterday did absolutely nothing for my reads. Ya'll lynched one and they killed another and here we are.

I'd like to say fuck it and just vote ZZZX but for some reason you guys aren't townreading me which is frustrating as hell. God I hate lylos.

[Papa Zito]

I know the math is hard but lemme help you out.

I need 3 votes to get lynched.

You've placed one.

massive said hello

I'm not self voting

Do you see the problem with this line of thought

[Papa Zito]

I didn't forget your existence. You posted yesterday.

Let's review the post.

I mean... the fact you're still alive tells me that one of us are scum.

And I know it ain't me.

So...

Here he's talking about quickhammers. For a quickhammer to happen both scum players have to be online and coordinate. With you only posting yesterday and someone else not having posted at all a quickhammer can't happen. That's why the "if Zito and grey are town there is no way this game has not ended" is nonsense. In a normal game yeah sure but when the game is this inactive the lack of hammer doesn't mean anything.

[Papa Zito]

I've actually already addressed what you've been talking about.

@Zito - what is your take on this? You now have a buddy, stop being pure defense and analyze my thoughts here, what do you think makes sense/doesn't?

I don't think Grey is scum tho.

Like both flips yesterday did absolutely nothing for my reads. Ya'll lynched one and they killed another and here we are.

I'd like to say fuck it and just vote ZZZX but for some reason you guys aren't townreading me which is frustrating as hell. God I hate lylos.

I'm only "purely defensive" because I know where I want to go already.

I will say that Grey sticking a vote on me out the gate and leaving it when his reasoning is so incredibly flimsy does put a point in his scum column. It would make some sense if the two scumpartners decided during the night to plonk one vote on me and wait for a townie to bite.

For your wagons I'd have to look at context on why people hopped on or off.

[Papa Zito]

ZZZX is still my biggest scumread ftr. I still see him as the most likely Cloud partner.

[Papa Zito]

For your wagons I'd have to look at context on why people hopped on or off.

Why don't you look at them then?

I can't now, I will at lunch.


I thought massive was going with the "you know I'm town so you made me green" argument there.

[Papa Zito]

Votecount 3.4

CloudKicker

:

Boonskiies, Cooperative Sheep

, -Grey-,

Keyenpeydee

,

CloudKicker

So Grey is the only possible busser.
Day 3 was quick, but it wasn't so quick as to deny bussing options.

I was looking at this one because it's on a scum slot.

Grey's swap from Boon to Cloud was very strange.

1876 - Grey votes Boon, citing discordance in Boon's reads. Nothing here suggests this is a joke vote.
1895 - Notes Boon called Aristo (mason) possible scum
1897 - "Kinda hard to buy your reads when you're not reading the game well enough to know who the confirmed town are."
1918 - essentially reiterates 1876
1928 he joke votes Cloud, 1933 he returns to Boon

1936 - Suddenly declares Boon town and votes Cloud, where he parks the rest of the day.

I don't understand that last hop at all given the back-and-forth he had with Boon.

@Grey can you talk about this?

[Papa Zito]

Zito, any reason you're taking Sheep's greening of himself at face value? Or is there just nothing interesting about Sheep on that wagon?

I didn't really see anything interesting about how Sheep joined that wagon. He (?) voted Elena with his first post that day and didn't move.

[Papa Zito]

getting frustrated eh

[Papa Zito]

Well for me at least, the game has become pretty clear. You and Grey obviously share the same agenda which is "lynch Zito" and not "find scums." And now that plenty of time has passed and I've not been hammered it's extremely obvious that Grey is scum here. So I'm ready to lynch him whenever.

I appreciate you want to double down on the plan tho.

[Papa Zito]

You're his partner so I'm not terribly interested in selling anything to you. And I've already talked about your slot.

Flipside to your post is - if it's confirmed to you that it's either Grey or me, you should be talking to both of us to figure out which one. What's going on right now? Nothing. :3

[Papa Zito]

Oh yes.

Grey, where did your Sheep scumread go?

My own reads are on a back burner until I give Boon his revenge.

This unassailable bit of moonlogic.

[Papa Zito]

Neat.

VOTE: -Grey-

[Papa Zito]

idk man. I feel like if people review our respective actions over the past couple of days and ask themselves "who benefits from what this guy is doing" then this all becomes super obvious.

I can't help you with the pace, I'm the most active thing here.

[Papa Zito]

Boon demanded Elena.

Boon was right.

Boon demanded you.

Boon got killed.

You're still alive with my vote on you this long into the day.

Boon was right again and got shot for it.

Man it's hard to argue against this. Boon's definitely always right.

Votecount 1.11

Boonskiies

: Lycanfire, Cooperative Sheep, Elena Fisher,

Elena Fisher

:

Keyenpeydee

:

BlueBloodedToffee

:

momo

: Aristophanes,

-Grey-

:

Aristophanes

:

MagnaofIllusion

: TwoFace

ThinkBig

:

Lycanfire

:

Boonskiies

, ThinkBig, -Grey-, Keyenpeydee, MagnaofIllusion, ZZZX, momo

Cooperative Sheep

:

ZZZX

:

TwoFace

:

Not Voting

: BlueBloodedToffee

No Lynch

:

Lynch has been acheived.
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Lycanfire,

Vanilla Townie

, has been lynched.

Oh.

[Papa Zito]

I mean I shouldn't have to post that really. The idea that because someone was right once makes them automatically right a second time is patently ridiculous. Anyone who's actually played this game knows this and to be quite honest I'm a bit insulted this is the route you've chosen to go to get me lynched. I'd like to think I merit a better argument than something so utterly stupid.

[Papa Zito]

You keep saying that but you've yet to actually say why.

Anyway yes I know he's using that as the flimsiest of excuses, duh. I need the other two townies to vote him if we have any hope of getting to tomorrow so I'm kinda stuck having to point out how dumb it is. Any other phase of the game and I wouldn't even bother commenting on it.

[Papa Zito]

That bark doesn't have much bite when you've already been parked on me all day. In Lylo.

Lol. See? No real attempt to sort.

I can't

[Papa Zito]

I know we've functionally got a coin flip for scum right now, but I'm really conflicted in my reads on Zito and Grey.

Ok, how do we get your reads sorted?

[Papa Zito]

Votecount 5.3

massive

:

-Grey-

: Papa Zito

Papa Zito

: -Grey-

Cooperative Sheep

:

ZZZX

:

Not Voting

: massive, Cooperative Sheep, ZZZX

No Lynch

:

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Massive voted Grey in 2376.

[Papa Zito]

Zito didn't hammer massive.

Partner confirmed.

ZZZX didn't hammer you ages ago.

Partner confirmed.

yawn

[Papa Zito]

I honestly don't know why you two decided to go all-in like this today but I'm glad you did honestly. You've really increased our odds of winning the game. Sheep just has to make the right decision here.

[Papa Zito]

At this point I want him to swing just on general principle.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah town loses.

Personally I thought I played pretty well this game so I'm less annoyed by this than I should be.

[Papa Zito]

Well that's confusing.

[Papa Zito]

Haha, I felt it would. I was figuring it out near the end of the day, and I was kind of stuck with how far I went to making a case on Zito.

You should probably review that part of the game in light of how completely wrong you were.

[Papa Zito]

If you name pretty much everyone in the game as scum at some point, yeah you got the entire team. Congrats I suppose.

I can only attest to your play after I replaced in since I didn't go and read every in depth but from my perspective it was particularly poor. Also I did notice when researching a couple wagons that you tried to self hammer at one point. shrug

[Papa Zito]

You're doing that self delusional mastina thing but ok.