Mini Normal 1890 - Endgame

[Cooperative Sheep]

grey 21 is a reach.

magna 23 is poor reasoning. why is it invalid to be wary of a wagon on x player when x player tends to react poorly to wagons as town? and to 31, where does matt imply that any reaction to a key wagon from key will be nai?

tf seems like tf.

elena 17 feels off. points to magna for pointing that out.

matt 27 feels townish.

tf 37

key 38

VOTE: key

Your point on Magna feels more coherent as an issue than your "point" on Key - why the key vote?

Vote: Magna

I'm sheeping Barley...

[Cooperative Sheep]

I find validity in your question - basically he took someone saying 'wagoning this guy is an issue because I've seen him derp hammer as town PR when wagoned' and translated that to, somehow, a scumtell to point out. It seems a good thing to point out, just in general, and also a valid reason to not support a wagon. I fail to see any scum intent at all, and even accepting the natural relative strength of an RVS wagon it's not a valid tell to pursue even then.

Also, Magna has some votes on him, making him one of my more preferred wagons to vote at this stage.

More words often can mean more coherent, as it helps people understand your stance. So your theory is a gut vibe of 'antagonistic' is more scummy than attacking someone over something that isn't even scummy?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'd also support a wagon on Barley at this stage. His kind of instant dropping of his attack on Key reads extremely limp wristed to me - if he was attacking for reactions, he should have kept going, the same if he believed what he said. That he dropped it after being asked about it by Key makes it look like he wasn't pressuring nor believing what he said - which makes it read as faked scumhunting to me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I see you still dropping it (or just listing something in your initial explanation of your issue with him that you don't now claim to find scummy) which still leaves me not liking your reaction.
What am I missing?

[Cooperative Sheep]

now are you scumhunting or looking for something to jump on?

At this stage, they're one and the same in my opinion - do you disagree?
If not, what's up with your vote?
If so, why ask?

[Cooperative Sheep]

How is it confusing?
Functionally he's complaining that I'm attacking something that isn't quite what I said I perceived it as, and voted me over it even though I was quite clear in how I perceived it (wich makes it identical to his poke at Key). I'm trying to force him to explain enough of his logic so I can assess if he's hypocritical scum, or town who doesn't grok his own hypocrisy. He, meanwhile, is vaguely attacking me, I think just to attack me - but his core attack is that I'm attacking him over not much.

[Cooperative Sheep]

^ sheep's fault.

and no i don't agree lol. scumhunting shouldn't be something scum can actually replicate. i don't really want to argue about theory though.

you effectively answered my question with "i'm just looking for something to jump on" but you didn't say that outright. shifty.

I explicitly stated it by saying 'they're the same thing'.
So if you think I'm scummy for jumping on stuffand looking for stuff to jump on you already openly have me saying that's what I'm doing - it's shifty you're trying to act like I avoided saying it.

Unvote: Magna
Vote: Barleycorn

Now I'm covering up for OMGUSing you too, you should add that to your case.

[Cooperative Sheep]

i guess you're right, it's not shifty. could be that i don't like your playstyle.

Okay, so you are voting me why again?
Am I or am I not the scummiest player in your opinion?

I still feel like you kind of fold from your opinions the instant you're challenged.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Why did you opt to alt a relatively new account?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Unvote: Barley
Vote: Magna

To clarify, I still scumread the Barley slot, but the read is tepid due to what I am personally assessing as newbie play paired with probably some negative feedback/reactions that led to an alt attempt. At this stage, I'd lynch him, but accept that maybe I'm getting false positives, and see little purpose to pressuring the slot further considering the direction our debate already went.

Let's thump the dragon.

[Cooperative Sheep]

It's because I'm old school.

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

[Cooperative Sheep]

So Sheep … talk to me about how given you posted the later understanding that early game scum-hunting is mainly finding things to pick at that you think my push on Matt is not exactly that. I’m all ears and await your response.

What I stated was that town finds things to jump on early.
I never said you should find non-scum indicative things to jump on.
I did say what I saw you jump on was not scum indicative.

I'm fine with pushing a small thing hard, I'm fine with nitpicking (though hopefully both ease back later in game), but are you claiming you find what he did, somehow, scummy in any way? Because that's what I asked you to explain, and functionally you dodged that question to try to attack my stance. I've fielded your attack, care to field mine now? Because I want to see you explain the theory scum intent you're applying withyour attack - I'm fine if it's small, but you should be able to justify it, otherwise you're being scummy.

Because 82 feels like “aha, I can put this mislynch in my back pocket for later” play to me.

I can see it being read like that - that said, you kind of seemed to agree with my presented reasoning on the slot also (per your post 91), so I would presume you can understand how a town player can see that info and draw that conclusion - so the only question is if you think I, as town would either full tunnel the idea, or would have issues with it but move on and if I'd do different as scum.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Barley - Actually his argument is that if you're a player that has that history, you're more likely town, and if you're not than you're more likely scum. The logic being a slot known for bad play justifies a lot of the issues I pointed out with you (like the instant appeasement) whereas if you're otherwise a competent player, than this is potentially an act and has scum motive.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Matt (who has yet to weigh in) said “Hey this one time Keyen flailed as a Town Powerrole and got himself lynched so that is a bad wagon”. Well personally as scum I saw Keyen get pressured and he didn’t get lynched for flailing. He survived the pressure which abated and then he replaced out later.
So Matt’s premise is invalid (which by the way Keyen said as much himself). A wagon on Keyen may well have shown some alignment indicative behavior. So what you claim is “Town behavior” actually undermined what could have been useful Town information.

So what I'm getting from this is that you disagree with his assessment of the slot.
How does that make what he did a scum action as opposed to a town whose meta read of a given player you disagree with?
Because the only theory I can even see would require both of them to be scum, and the one you didn't vote being the more required of the pair, yeah?

Personally I don’t see moving my vote anytime soon. Barley’s “Oh god replace me my slot is dead” when he has exactly one vote (mine) and I’m sitting at 5 votes is not a Town reaction IMO.

--

Not really a scum reaction either though...

It's an emotional reaction, as either town or scum he was feeling the feels.
I, frankly, vibed it as more town than scum, so I can't really judge someone who read it the other way as I think it's probably a gut reaction to read emotion.

What do you think of my attack on Magna at the moment? I feel like his answers continue to slightly dance the issue, it makes me want to lynch him. Do you see that, or do you think I'm making stuff up, or what?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Scum have this little thing call being the informed minority. You might have heard of it. Who is in the best position to talk against what they think can be framed as a bad wagon / action / pressure what have you? Scum. Town don’t know for certain that the player isn’t scum on page 1. Speaking out strongly isn’t going to backfire on Scum (and yes, I’m ignoring Multiball concerns for the moment) and make them look bad. Is it a smoking gun? Of course not. But for page 2 it’s certainly enough to press on.

Your concept, if I understand it correctly, is only scum is likely to have been able to assess that the wagon was 'bad' and so he white knighted sorta/revealed his inside information with too strong of a stance?

Also – a single game instance is not meta. Furthermore meta as used on MS is pretty much junk. So framing that as “a Town meta read” is just bad.

I didn't say whether it was quality or non-quality meta, I said he presented a meta read - and that is objectively factual whether or not you agree with it.

The fact that he is still floating around and saying he "can't make the effort" doesn't make me feel too wrong on that count.

I do give you agreement points here.

@Two-Face - I agree with Magna, willingness to die is not actually a good town playstyle. You're supposed to make scum fight for those mislynches, not play along with them.

[Cooperative Sheep]

because scum can't believe their pushes.

Btw this actually confirmed what I'm saying.

If he was town who believed strongly in his push (which his posts imply they did) he wouldn't have abandoned them for something non AI (which he did)

Secondly scum can absolutely believe in their pushes. thats the best way to play as scum, push things that you know are scummy, things you would push as town.

The goal is to get town to think you're being genuine and the best way to do that is to actually be genuine.

But isn't that Catch-22 logic?
Like, functionally you're saying the way to play as scum is to play like you're town, and neither should abandon pushes they believe in.
So, by argument, Magna either is bad scum - or he's town/scum who believes his current push is not weaker than his former push.
Are you claiming he's bad at playing scum? Because otherwise doesn't your case fall flat?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Two Face and Magna seem very hot at each other, and it makes me distrustful of the whole wagon at this stage. Also, I mildly like Magna's answers. It's not brilliant, but at least there is a theory scum concept he is claiming to have been advancing.

VOTE: Gin

Let's randomly wild wagon a lurker and lynch that instead, it will be funny and won't lynch an active poster, so it's really a win-win.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'd also love if we got more posts from blank slots before even thinking on a hammer but that's a given.

Since your vote isn't at work, you should sheep me onto Gin. Either we'll get posts out of him, or we'll put him in lulz hammer range and Boon will do that, so it's a pretty awesome plan.

[Cooperative Sheep]

You think Gin is scum choosing to lurk out the early RVS wagon on me?

I'm not sure I actually put that much specific thought into it - but, sure, that could be a possibility both if he is your scumpatner and doesn't want to have to discuss it or if you're town and he wants to avoid being on a mislynch wagon. The entire concept of lurking is that, as scum, the advantage is zero info - so the endgame is just avoiding things, whatever those things are.

Or...we can let him catch on his own without rushing him how about that.

Doesn't seem particularly advantageous - why do you want him to have time to catch up, why not just have a wagon on him when he arrives?

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Boonskies

Baaaah

[Cooperative Sheep]

That was a lot of info without being overwhelming in insight for me.
I actually rather like MoI's point about Momo, that's some straight up hypocrisy and I didn't like that Momo totally ducked it afterwards.
That said, I also agree with Two Face about Boon - advancing the concept that he's an easy lynch, and that's why Two Face is scum for attacking him while also faking a PR to draw a kill and having BP be that PR just doesn't jive for me.
I am kind of reading both MoI and Two Face as town now because both seem genuinely insulted at the other dissing on their play skills, and that reads honest - and what they're insulting is their town skill, not their scum skill.

My vote stays on Boon.

@Momo - why the differeing opinions on L-2 on two different wagons?

[Cooperative Sheep]

My update is I like Lycan more for town and Grey more for scum.

@Grey, what's your take on Magna?

[Cooperative Sheep]

My update is I like Lycan more for town and Grey more for scum.

@Grey, what's your take on Magna?

What about Elena?

I don't particularly support the wagon on her considering other stuff that's on the table, but I'm not against people wanting to scumhunt there.
I personally would call her town if you demanded me to offer a read, but it's not a strong lean on my part.

My update is I like Lycan more for town and Grey more for scum.

@Grey, what's your take on Magna?

Lol @ calling me scum and then thinking I'd be interested in talking to you.

Get back to me when you pull your head out of your ass.

Shutting down all communication is helpful for scum and not helpful for town.
Also, why are you talking to me like I'm town reading you wrong but also refusing communication? If you are town, wouldn't you want to provide me more info to sort you better?
I think the Magna question is reasonable and straight forward regardless of me scum or town reading you, and would still like you to answer it.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Do you find being difficult to help as a town win plan and intentionally do it, or do you consider cooperation to be utterly unconnected to town winning?

[Cooperative Sheep]

And I thought you were townreading me because you were basically bargaining with me to town read/not scum read you in order to get info out of you - I'd not think that's a conversation to have with scum. I suppose you could have it with a null though.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Do you find being difficult to help as a town win plan and intentionally do it, or do you consider cooperation to be utterly unconnected to town winning?

I cooperate with town reads. You do nothing to make me want to cooperate with you.

Why did you cite me scumreading you as a reason for me to not expect cooperation with me?
I also feel like you're answering a crazy amount of questions from me *except* your take on Magna, which reads really strange if your goal was to just sod me off as a non-town read.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I like Lycan's post about Elena.

Why do you find me scummier?
Also, is there anyone you town read, can you name one?

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Key - I tend to presume votes are on top scum reads until something is explicitly stated otherwise. So is it just sitting there because no one is particularly scummy, or do you tend not to use your vote much?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Not much to comment on, but I sort of like to post once a day just to keep the prods away.
No strong read on the Lycan v. Elena thing.
Boon v. Elena feels like an Elena win and does kind of negative feedback me on Lycan just due to the support he's drawing to otherwise at least somewhat structured issues but I think my real reaction is just to call Boon scum, and maybe Two Face is right in his call on the exchange.

[Cooperative Sheep]

668 is a shit post.

I could see myself lynching that.

No it isn't, it's actually a pretty solid post, even objectively.
You're posting doggerel now.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I agree that you don't have any backing to the comment you made.
I also like how you pretty much agree to this, but intimate that me calling you out on a weak, unsupported attack is somehow defensive in a questionable way.

[Cooperative Sheep]

You did strike a nerve - I look forward to watching you squirm to try to explain how that nerve remotely resembles caught scum as opposed to town noting that you're spewing nothing.
Any time now...

[Cooperative Sheep]

What are those reasons exactly? The wrong ones that are getting to me?
Because so far this is the conversation;

Grey: This is a bad post
Sheep: No, it isn't
Grey: You're right, but isn't it defensive of you to say that?
Sheep: No, it isn't.
Grey: I caught scum, town wouldn't react like this!

[Cooperative Sheep]

Keep digging, I want to see where this goes.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Like, town would have just seen my blatant prod dodge, called me an idiot and shrugged it off for what it is. Scum!Sheep can't afford to have ANY negativity on him to be believed, so he has to fight it anywhere it crops up.

How did I not just call you an idiot?
Because I said your post was full of nothing - which is *exactly* what you are now claiming town would do.
Then you called that me being defensive.

VOTE: Grey

[Cooperative Sheep]

Grey your sheep read makes sense

Why does it 'make sense' exactly?
Like, describe to me the town reaction to someone calling you scum for nothing,a nd then calling you defensive for pointing out that they're making stuff up.
Because as far as I can tell that would trigger town literally every single time.
Can you show me examples of that *not* making town call the post dumb?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Lolololololol

You really need to mock me - because you can't defend your logic at all.
It's literally the only avenue open to you.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Okay- Grey, you're scum because I'm a day cop.

React in the town manner to this case on you.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Fuck yo daycop.

You're caught scum.

Naw, you're clearly being defensive to a joke - you're the scum.

[Cooperative Sheep]

What is this clownfesta shit I lost half my iq reading this

Vote Grey then, he's the one claiming that only scum react to people making up cases on them.
Like...seriously.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Sheep, you are not a day cop. That is total Bull.

If anyone believes you, they are naive.

and sheep attempting to fake claim a PR with a guilty and then using the same defensive accusation back.

I...uh...openly claimed it as a joke, intentionally stated it was a lie to allow Grey to react to a lie case, and am using the defensive accusation back as a way to illustrate how bad and scummy it is.

How is anyone reading any of that as me being serious about the claim at any point ever?

That said, Grey not reacting to the claim proves his defensiveness, and tunneling me is just more evidence he's scum.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Like, describe to me the town reaction to someone calling you scum for nothing,a nd then calling you defensive for pointing out that they're making stuff up.
Because as far as I can tell that would trigger town literally every single time.

Read my posts, peeps.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Fuck yo daycop.

You're caught scum.

Yes, look how defensive I am!

Damn, you responded again - now I know you're scum even though my case was a lie.
I'mma vote you and no one else till you're dead.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Like, literally Grey, you literally did what I did, and you called what I did scum play - do you realize how shoddy your case is now?
Or are you claiming scum?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Let me help you both.
Summarize your case in 250 words or less

Let us be the judges

Stop spamming the thread for fking hell

His case on me is the definition of a case that would catch anyone, to whit - claiming only scum would react negatively/defensively/et al to a made up case on them.
He also was using that as a cover to, y'know, creating a made up case on me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Let me help you both.
Summarize your case in 250 words or less

Let us be the judges

Stop spamming the thread for fking hell

His case on me is the definition of a case that would catch anyone, to whit - claiming only scum would react negatively/defensively/et al to a made up case on them.
He also was using that as a cover to, y'know, creating a made up case on me.

And you're STILL freaking out over A FUCKING PROD DODGE

I didn't freak out about it - I said it was untrue, something you agree with me on.
So at that point we have you making up things for a prod dodge as opposed to saying 'prod dodge'.

So sheep do you have any other case on grey?

No, I don't.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Yet he's now trying to appeal to Boon (who he keeps calling 100% scum) to vote me since I'm "pocketing" him.

I agree with you that he's hard pushing his Boon+you narrative to an odd degree, but he isn't trying to pocket Boon as far as I can tell either, he basically called Boon scum for about four posts and then tossed out a 'but if you wish a reason based on you being town than; blah-blah" answer, which hardly feels like a pocket attempt - at least I don't call someone scum repeatedly when trying to pocket them.

I think both of you are being a bit closed down when it comes to each other, and neither case is strong enough to warrant it that I can see, and I even like the case on Boon.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Maybe so, but there is still a gradient, and scum reads, by nature, tend to fall within the bottom half of the gradient.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I agree with you that he's hard pushing his Boon+you narrative to an odd degree,

It's not to an odd degree actually.

Boon is scum cause his actions make no sense from town
Magna is scum cause his actions make no sense from town

I assume they are scum together cause I don't think this is multiball.

I'm not questioning why you scum read them, I can understand that, I just question the apparent/implied strength of the read.
Like the Magna case, it doesn't take a hard squint to see that as an early RVS push made aggressively on something that otherwise might not be a scumtell. I literally did (and admitted to) doing the same thing. Do I agree with you that he felt a little sketchy in how he discussed it? Yeah, and it twigs me on him, but to translate that twigness to 'none else may be lynched, so sayeth the prophecy' is, in my opinion, odd.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I literally did (and admitted to) doing the same thing.

Show me where you as town made up a reason for an rvs push. Defended that reason multiple times, and later retracted it saying it was just an rvs and not serious.

That's a bit of a straw man, because that's not what MoI did - as far as I can tell he stood by his claim of what he saw as scummy, though he did agree it wasn't a 100% rock solid tell, which is quite different to my mind than saying it was a BS made up tell. Do you not differentiate the two?

My similar moment can be found here; viewtopic.php?p=8947445#p8947445

[Cooperative Sheep]

You didn’t parse that correctly. I was saying that DSOB was alternating theories between “MoI and Boon are partners” to “Boon MoI is scum trying to pocket you”.

Yes, but he was doing so in response to Boon's argument of why you were town for defending him - Face's initial stance was 'both are scum' but he eventually offered a theory where, even from Boon's viewpoint, that you wouldn't be clear town. It's not actually a real shift in his position methinks.

because that's not what MoI did

That's exactly what Magna did.

I really disagree with that take - he absolutely said it wasn't a rock solid tell. At no point did he claim it was a made up tell that he didn't think was scummy.

I really wish both of you would stop, I don't really think either of you are scum and I think what you're doing is very bad for general scumhunting, and also our lynch today in particular.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I agree with that, but if I follow that to a logical conclusion I feel like both of you are sorta blind tunneled - if you produce the quote you say exists though it will just be my bad recall making me think that about Magna though, in which case you could probably snag my vote. But I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Magna - I think I get that point, I've said on a couple of occasions that I find him oddly focused and tunneled - I think the difference is you presume scum intentional blindness on his part, and I'm approaching it from a stance of personal annoyance/playstyle blinding him. I absolutely agree with you that he has blinders on, I don't automatically translate that to scum intent.

I have disliked Momo since he sheeped Grey's non-case on me and acted like my claim was remotely real. I could buy scum in that slot.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@BBT - Do you support the Elena wagon? If you moved there it would push things closer to a lynch. Also, frankly, if you went to Momo I'd sheep you on that, how do you feel about that wagon?

[Cooperative Sheep]

What if I'm scum just avoiding a really derpy wagon to buy town cred later?

[Cooperative Sheep]

So you intentionally rule out logic and reasoning from your scumhunting and insert personal bias?
That seems like a good scum strategy, but a poor town one.
Do you not like to win as town as much as scum, or what?

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Two-Face - have you had a chance to look for that Magna quote yet?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Show me where you as town made up a reason for an rvs push. Defended that reason multiple times, and later retracted it saying it was just an rvs and not serious.

No town should ever make up reasons to push somebody. No town should fake justify the fake reasons

Functionally this, though our specific discussion was about the retraction and saying it was not serious.

[Cooperative Sheep]

The Boons wagon as of this post mirrors the Magna wagon 300-400 posts previous. You know- the wagon that made it's way out of RVS. How do you feel about having a stale wagon (Boons) for 100 posts, which is really just an extension of RVS (400+ stale)?

I would note that the only alternate wagon that has sprung up and is new is the Elena wagon, and I would be happily willing to compare the relative strengths between that and the Boon wagon.
The other is the Momo wagon, which I have expressed interest in if others moved.
So I don't really get the point - there are only 2 "newer" wagons, and I have commented on both.
Wagon age doesn't prove wagon case strength.

In what way do you dislike the Elena wagon? Half the voters were previously non-commital, while the other half were from 2F. Is it bad to have the Elena wagon emerge here?

I never said anything to suggest that the Elena wagon was bad, I did say I wasn't really personally sold on it - is there a reason you think I really should be?

You can have more of an opinion on my back and forth with Elena-no, I'm sure you do, but you're being a poor sport and holding out.

I don't have a strong enough read on Elena to want to attack the wagon on her like I'm attacking the wagon on Magna, because at least with Magna I've straight up started to say I think he's town. With Elena the most I have is an early gut read. I suppose I *could* leap in and start attacking the wagon just to get reactions, but I'd much rather let that one stew awhile to get reads for myself on the people attacking and defending it. Is there part of your case you'd like my thoughts on?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Wagon age doesn't prove wagon case strength.

Sure it does. It brings into question why Boons is alive if the Boons wagon is really just an extension of the Magna wagon:

No, it doesn't.
I will agree that the analysis of those wagons has some potential interest to them, but it's just in the abstract that different groups decided to push them, barring some alignment flips it's a coin flip that has nothing to do with age of the wagon.

In 668 you seemed to imply you hated it based on associatives. Can you explain?

I didn't imply - I straight up stated that I felt distaste for any wagon that Grey supported due to my feelings about him on both an alignment and a playstyle scale.

I care less about your opinion of my case and more about your opinions of Elena's posts.

Your case itself has little to do with her posts besides theory scum meta.
As I've already said about Elena, I town read her - not strongly but I do. I think her posts have been fine, I don't think she has egged on anything, and I think she has been reasonably insightful especially in consideration of the average in this game.
Does that answer your question?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I will agree that the analysis of those wagons has some potential interest to them, but it's just in the abstract that different groups decided to push them, barring some alignment flips it's a coin flip that has nothing to do with age of the wagon.

Also, with some of the new votes and the regrowth of the Magna wagon, this theory is a bit stretched now.

[Cooperative Sheep]

how do you feel about post 59 post 64 post 116 post 219 post 225 231

(matt) post 246 post 247

(elena)

post 255

you post a lot about how you feel but i don't see you reference posts or give direct commentary

Yeah, I do tht because most posts aren't worth dissecting, let's see;

59 - Feel...fine? People did seem confused or intentionally confused by the interaction. i don't know why, but it has happened to me in other games also, so I expect it.
64 -It's a question, it feels like a fair question and not a trap.
116 - I agree that the behavior was worth calling out. (and why not reference 118 where she delves further into this same thought and adds meat to it?)
219 -It's a question and valid to ask.
225 - She is supporting her vote and distancing from an RVS, there's no meat here but that's the most negative I could go and that's not really a telling comment.
231 - feels like she's working a meta tell familiarity thing.
246 - I agree with him on calling me town, I agree with him on suggesting Magna's Face push is overstated (I've said as much elsewhere)
247 - I can't speak for the meta, otherwise it's functionally just re-stating 246
255 - This is a meaningless post to assess since she then went into her thoughts a few posts later.

I haven't said a lot here, and it is about why I didn't say stuff the first time around, but them's the thoughts.


I am tending to agree with Two Face in that he's pointing out specific issues of you not representing the truth and then ducking responding to those directly - why are you voting him for pointing that out? Are you denying that he's not saying/doing the things you're claiming he's saying/doing? Because from what i can see he's correct, so why wouldn't it be valid of him to point that out?

[Cooperative Sheep]

He doesn't call Boon 'not town' in that post though that I could see - he calls him scum.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm not sure I can see a scum advantage to that lie, like, even if everyone believed it it was hardly a slam dunk against you so why misrepresent?
Either he sees something we're missing, or he is pretty darn sure he saw something that wasn't there methinks.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I don't like his vote though, that bugs me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Grey committed the exact same 'subtle mistake' I did.
So, if you love the case on me, why aren't either of you considering Grey scum
People have openly claimed that as an issue with the logic of that case.

As far as Magna, I'm in open conversation with Two Face to prove his point on Magna, and he actually hasn't produced the quote despite raging at Lycan for the same issue - I have some problems with that as a case for that alone, and I haven't seen either of you add more to that case than Face has, so if there's something I'm missing, let me know. I'm actually surprised this case has more support than the Boon one, frankly.

For the Boon case I actually kind of agree with it - but it's not like either of you are voting there, and I also think there's more support and consesnsus for that lynch, so if you want to call a push 'herp' maybe consider you're trying to push the heavier boulder uphill.

I'd also support lynching either of you

[Cooperative Sheep]

If you were as good as you seem to think you are you'd understand the process of what I am doing.

This is really all I need to confirm what I was saying. When you are "reaction testing" you tell people to back off in a manner like this.

the issue is as I have already stated before, he was defending his reasons for pushing matt which implies he was serious.

Reaction testing requires you to defend your stance also though, and it does not show your claim that he didn't believe in the tell.
In fact to really push the scum claim you're obligated to functionally prove he was serious and wasn't reaction testing.

This is basically admitting 23 is a lie. You don't declare "scum found" and later say oops I wasn't being serious about that when he was getting negative attention. (remember Magna was at L-2 when his stance on matt changed from a scum read to a "I was not being serious and i'm going to discredit you for thinking it was in post 176)

I can follow your logic, but I do agree with Magna that it is a stretch - like, let's say for the sake of argument that Magna becomes confirmed town.
He presented a scum read "scum found even"
He intimated it as a reaction test (which justifies saying 'scum found' and also then dropping the read later as more info arises)
He later said he believed in the tell but didn't consider it rock solid (which supports his prior actions suggesting it was a reaction test)

The scum narrative, to my mind, is literally just that he felt he was getting called scum for pushing on Matt and backed off of it to try to paint a serious push as a reaction push - and if that's really your case I can see and follow it, but the evidence appears to equally support a town narrative as it is not my experience that town Magna doesn't reaction push, and, frankly, that scum Magna reaction pushes.

[Cooperative Sheep]

In fact to really push the scum claim you're obligated to functionally prove he was serious and wasn't reaction testing.

no i'm not

To make the case qualify as a legit scum case to me, you are. I'll agree that besides the bar I'm setting there is no other obligation, but I do think the theory scum motivation falls apart without showing that he, as town and/or scum, wasn't legit pushing that case thinking it would go through to a lynch as opposed to doing a Page 1 runup.

do you really think he believes that Matt was a solid scum read for me on Page 1?

btw this quote is basically an admission that his scum read on matt was fake.

I disagree, it is assuredly an admission that it wasn't rock solid. Frankly I'd be more concerned if he had claimed it was a solid read at that stage of the game - isn't it normal to have reads adjust and mature? I know it's what I do. It's what a lot of players seem to do in my experience also.

I'm almost getting to the point of wanting to lynch one of you just to help the noise content ratio. This is a serious tunnel.

[Cooperative Sheep]

This thread is being about as useful as a trapdoor in a canoe.

@Mod - could we please get a ThinkBig prod?

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Momo

L-2 I think?

[Cooperative Sheep]

But the Momo wagon is fresh and exciting, and maybe there will be cookies.

[Cooperative Sheep]

The claim is interesting, but doesn't really shift my world view of the game (unfortunately?).
I'm okay with the Boon push, I'm okay with the Momo push, I'll help both, I'm not moving because, though we lack vote counts, I still think I'm on the bigger wagon, but if a VC appears and shows otherwise I'll bounce back and forth like an excited pinball.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Boonskies

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Boon
Whatever. This is all we're heading right?

Momo is an option for me also.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'd rather momo than boon

Please save boon

Momo definitely looks more survivalistic, though that's a pretty threadbare tell I'll admit.
Do you have an argument for saving Boon or damning Momo? I consider them pretty equal personally.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I like boon more

I dont think boon is scum

Thats my whole logic there

I understand the basic premise that you town read one more/scum read the other more.I was hoping for a bit of meat.
Are you just calling it 'gut' basically?

Pedit - I am lynching it because the fakeclaim reads like survival not scum baiting as later claimed and feels like a grab for towncred after being called on a shifty claim rather then a representation of what really happened.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@ZZZX - Boon has claimed (almost in every post ) that you can't meta him, yet he seems okay with your read and you're basically calling it meta. How do you feel about that?

I am one of the players who believe no action is really "scummy" but rather the intent is what matters

which makes my reads in most games slightly different. If you want to convince me of boonscum for example you will need to explain why would he do whatever he did as scum and not town. as I dont see any motivation from that side other than shooting self in foot

I agree, I do the same thing.

Okay, here's the deal - he fakeclaimed BP when pressured, that is pure survival regardless of his alignment, no question really, and in and of itself is alignment neutral.
However...
When he later claimed that his goal was to WIFOM scum/draw a kill/et al with the claim he, if town, is claiming that as his goal.
His actions don't line up with that at all, because he rescinded the claim due to getting *more* heat after making the claim.

Now, if he was town he would not lie about his motivation - ergo, he should have stuck with his fake claim, or his explanation should have been "I was just trying to survive".
If he is scum, however, his rescinding makes sense because his goal was survival, and he wants to not claim that because it looks more townish to be doing *some* sort of scumhunting, so he came up with the pseudo-faking ut scum claim to help justify his skeevy claim and make it look like he was doing something.

Does that make sense for my issue with the claim?
If no - where do I lose you?
If yes - how do you draw that behavior as town minded since you seem to have reached the opposite conclusion I did?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Sheep: Has your read on Boons not evolved in the past 40 pages?

No, it has not. I don't think he's done much in the past 40 pages to cause any read change by anybody.

Do you think Grey is town?

I lean towards no.

Do you believe both popular wagons are on scum? How do you feel about the people that were on them (at any time?)

The other "popular" wagon in my opinion is the Magna one, which I think is on town. The Momo/Boon wagons have generally been composed of the same people.
The people on the wagons are (with apologies if I misrecall due to lack of VCs);

MagnaofIllusion: BlueBloodedToffee, momo, ThinkBig, TwoFace, Keyenpeydee
Boonskiies: -Grey-, ThinkBig, Lycanfire, Cooperative Sheep, Elena

For the first;
I think Momo is scum, and generally also scum/null read BBT and Key.
I town read Two Face and Think, and I think Magna is town also.

For the second;
Think big remains the same, I lean town on you and Elena.
I generally scum lean Grey. I scum read Boon.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'll agree he's pulling me into conversations, but am I really coming across as a wallflower that needs it?

[Cooperative Sheep]

When he later claimed that his goal was to WIFOM scum/draw a kill/et al with the claim he, if town, is claiming that as his goal.

It's bullshit.

You don't draw a kill by claiming

fucking bulletproof

.

Wow, good point, I'll start scum reading Boon instead of defending him

[Cooperative Sheep]

I don't strong town read Lycan, but I do town lean him, I am not a fan of that as a counter wagon to Boon.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Counter wagon to Boon? It's basically the same people who started the big push onto Boon in the first place, haha.

It certainly has a chunk - but it is also assuredly a counter wagon to you. We can call it an alternate wagon if it makes you feel better, but if you're calling yourself town then it shouldn't.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Before the second wagon on you, maybe.
Why do you keep bringing that up though? As I noted, if you consider this an 'alternate' wagon as opposed to a 'counter' wagon shouldn't that still make you think it's on town?
And if you think it's on scum - then who are the scum pushing your wagon, if any?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Because I think your options might be down to me, and me alone, frankly.
And that's not really convincing to me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I hope you're all right.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, I still think a claim should have been asked for.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Momo

I think this is our best option. I will also still support Boon, but looking back through yesterday I think Momo is more skeevy in overall actions while Boon is more skeevy in a microcosm paired with general not scumhunting, and I consider that a lesser tell sadly.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Claiming scum as Town hasn’t been a good way to actually catch scum since 2010.

It wasn't that impressive in 2010 either as I recall. I only saw it ever work once, and it was still annoying.

[Cooperative Sheep]

We were on Scum in the first place and the lycan counter wagon took off

Do you think scum started the counterwagon or just helped it along?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm still down to lynch the sheep, personally.

Yeah, the evidence on me is remotely impressive for Day 2

[Cooperative Sheep]

You know who points out that someone is sitting on a very stale read with no additional evidence to avoid scumhunting?

Town.

[Cooperative Sheep]

You know who worries about evidence?

Scum.

Also - town worry about evidence last I checked.
That's kind of the point of the game.

[Cooperative Sheep]

[Cooperative Sheep]

This is embarrassing as an actual push, and annoying for Titus to do as a reaction push since the most described case on me is an RVS one that holds no water off Grey's derp logic and hypocrisy.

What reaction do you expect outside of annoyance/ennui?

[Cooperative Sheep]

RVS one that holds no water off Grey's derp logic and hypocrisy.

Explain this.

If you read the game it's pretty obvious.
The case on me started with what Grey called an overreaction (that wasn't one) to a case on me he made based on a lie. He stated some BS about how town "should" react to a case of a lie (then did the exact same thing when i made up a lie case on him to prove how stupid his case was). The only people who like the case are Boon and Momo, who probably have at least one scum between them presuming Grey is derp town as opposed to derp scum (which I guardedly lean, but I'd frankly like to lynch the whole batch of them on the presumption of one scum amongst them). Later near the end of day 1 Grey said he actually didn't have much of a case on me, yet immediately leaped on the wagon again because...well, either it's a *really* obnoxious second reaction test (that is just making me scum read him more, because, y'know, I'm scum who has issues with cases based on lies unlike my town self would) or it showcases how empty and BS the case is because all he has between stating his case on me wasn't much and now acting like it means anything is the evidence of me not supporting a wagon on town and a claimed Mason being NKed, which I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest isn't anything compelling as far as suggesting I'm more scum today than I was yesterday.

Feel free to read the game and see if any of the above comes across as lies or reality skewing - I don't think it will.

[Cooperative Sheep]

That said, Grey can feel free to explain how his read on me shifted again.
I'll wait.
I'm sure a town Lycan flip somehow proves I'm clever scum who tricked everyone into voting Lycan and moving off Boon.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I mean, it's not. People have been stating suspicion on you since yesterday.

That is true - what were their reasons again?
Because if it's not the "overreaction" no one has clued me in to the case on me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

After the lynch on me goes through - I vote that people sheep Elena's above stated reads please and thank you.
Momo first.
If he's scum maybe reanalyze.

I will also point out for everyone else, the speed of the empty wagon on me is very telling.
Hint: unless you think I'm scum and have buddies hard bussing, it's a sketchy wagon.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I think you have no case, and am fine dying if it means town lynches you next, so that's what's next.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Grey

[Cooperative Sheep]

Yeah, fascinating how explaining your thoughts allows people to express opinions on them and try to hold you accountable.

Why don't you explain the jump from me to Momo - the wagon that I am pretty sure I'm pretty clearly stamped as a major proponent of.
Use your evidence schemvidence.
Explain what the hell you're thinking.
\
Because your playstyle is like a crutch for bad scum play, and I want to sort you right now.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Here's a fun punch list.

1. Why is Sheep scum?
2. Why is Momo scum?
3. Why did you shift from Sheep to Momo?

I know these are super complex and demanding requests, but you should be able to manage each one in about 1-2 sentences, even if you magically opt not to snark it out again.
And if you snark it out again, I'm done with you - death tunnel for the rest of the game and black list for eternity.

[Cooperative Sheep]

You bore me.

I'm not trying to entertain you, I'm trying to win the game.
Are you town? Is this your brilliant town play? Making up cases, explaining nothing, and random voting?
Because that sounds like your scum play is so weak you're hamstringing your town play to protect yourself.
Or you don't know how to make cases...which is it?
I'm not asking for a wall, I'm asking for a basic description of why you hold the reads you do - this does presume you cognate with your brain, but I'm willing to make that leap.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Too many naked voters flipping back and forth with nothing supporting the movement for my taste right now.

Welcome to the entire game - no one is even begining to analyze the wagon on Lycan and I'm almost starting to believe it's because half the town thinks that's how the game is actually supposed to be played.

[Cooperative Sheep]

You're making me an asshole, I was rather polite up until this point, but your play is bodering into unacceptably unfun for me.
You have reads, right?
I'll answer for you - yes.
You have a brain, right?
I'll answer for you - yes.
How did you use your brain to get your reads?
Just explain that.
Or explain how you think the game should be played with people not ever explaining reads or votes - I'll accept either option.

But empty voting on Day 2 and refusal to explain anything is not acceptable to me, unless you'd like to explain how I'm supposed to analyze your alignment.
And if your answer is 'lol, ya can't!' then I return to my initial theory that you have bad scum play and mirror it in your town play as a defense mechanism.

[Cooperative Sheep]

So you're saying you're incapable of explaining your reads?
Or that you actively refuse to do so for some reason?

[Cooperative Sheep]

[Cooperative Sheep]

1. Why is Sheep scum?
2. Why is Momo scum?
3. Why did you shift from Sheep to Momo?

1) The tone of your posts are skeevy.
2) If you're town, momo is probscum
3) 1563

1. How are my posts skeevy in tone? Since tone is specifically part of spoken as opposed to typed communication I don't get the tell. Is it just gut? Like you're presuming skeevy tone? Or something else?

2. Certainly if I'm town one of the questionable votes on me is prob scum, from your perspective of claiming town I can follow that. Not sure why a skeevy poster like me gets that follow up logic, but I get you here.

3. So me pointing out that the wagon on me which was empty and too fast (both things you encouraged/lead) made you think maybe I'm town. That seems iffy as logic to me, wouldn't you think the case on me is good and the votes appropriately coming, since you're the one pushing the case I'm calling empty? Do you agree with me that the case is empty? Or is it only the speed of the case you're agreeing with me on?

Because your playstyle is like a crutch for bad scum play,

This is proof you've never seen my scum play, btw.

Ask Titus how she fares against me in LyLo when I'm Scum. (Hint: not well)

If you play like this as town and scum I will certainly agree your scum game benefits, not a question in my mind - it would be very hard to deal with you. I said as much and fully believe it. I think you sacrifice your town play for that benefit - but that does come from a belief that votes and reads should be explained for optimal town play.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Enjoy your tunnel.

@Magna - generally I agree with that, the issue is, have you sorted him on either side of the alignment spectrum? I know a scum Momo flip will heavily adjust my read, but on a town Momo flip I feel like I'd be on Day 3 at square 1 with the Grey slot, which is not a healthy place to be.

[Cooperative Sheep]

It's where you are now anyway, so...

...that fails to suggest that I am content with that read, nor that it is a valid situation for the game state.

@Magna -

@Massive - if you're current now, do you have any reads/thoughts to offer?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Dead thread is dead.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@MoI - I think it's just deadness mixed with half the game thinking active pushes should be based on no stated reasons which nullifies debate. I think Momo/Sheep is an objectively silly pairing, though maybe you think he would bus that awkwardly? If you think my move was breaks, how do you justify your move? Literally both of us appeared to wish to force some more communication into the day - why am I a scumspect and what you did is fine, is it only knowing your own role PM?

@Titus - I would be okay with it.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Titus - though thinking about it, I'm not sure two scum would have double derped in on Grey's non-case on me. That actually seems unlikely as far as aggression level for the scum team towards me since I don't think I was calling out Momo much before he attacked me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm reading the shitstorm. This is stupid. All I get is "oh this person is town, I like the way he is asking questions and trying to focus someone, ANYONE during this ridiculous Boon meltdown" and then because of all the subs I go and look who mattblackguy is now AND HE'S A DEAD MASON THIS IS NOT HELPFUL

I'll admit that I don't really get all the hate the first 40 pages keep receiving - yeah, some players made it pretty spammy, so there is probably about ten pages of empty posting in there, sure. But a 75% content to noise ratio is not a bad average, and lots of wagons and pushes did happen in those pages, and even if all you want to do is skim till you get to votes and cases you'll still see a lot of motion that is able to be analyzed.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I actually kind of feel whoever claimed the first 40 as "useless" just gave people the excuse to call it that. It's no more useless than any random section of this game in my opinion.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Going back and looking, I wouldn't really characterize his attack on you as much of a bus or an attack compared to MoI or myself.
That said, he did have that disgusting 'post your paperwork' series which I would add as further evidence to my own thoughts that you're unlikely buddies.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Why are you okay with ZZZX using meta to get a town read on you despite telling us constantly that your meta is unreadable?

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Momo

L-2 again.
I'd like a claim and/or some content from that slot.

[Cooperative Sheep]

The same argument could be made that I'm trying to bail you out - you're under more pushing than she is. All you're doing is disagreeing with her, she's calling you scum.

[Cooperative Sheep]

any questions???

How about you assess your wagon, address the raised point that you've been posting elsewhere yet avoiding this game, and maybe contemplate claiming/coming up with a very interesting case as you are likely the lynch today.

[Cooperative Sheep]

One of us unvoted to be certain that Dead Player Walking Titus had time to get her thoughts out (even thought it appears that she isn’t really going to give much effort) while explicitly stating “I’ll be back voting this scum later”.

One of us unvoted Momo when the wagon built to viablility and moved to a competing wagon for reasons that at best are policy lynch based.

And I f I write it as;

One of us unvoted to look town by asking for info

and

One of us unvoted when a top scumspect suddenly leapt off a claimed scumspect of theirs to push a wagon said scumspect was championing.

Then it changes the viewpoint without requiring any real squinting.
You're being over critical to no end goal.
It doesn't matter what you think of the case on Grey, it matters what I do when analyzing how I react.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Man, sheep. You may be cleared from my scum list; I know you were worried, but I don't see you as the third scum.

It is assuredly a great weight being lifted off my shoulders

You're saying Magna is scum because he made up a read by making up where Elena's vote was?
Isn't it just more likely he, regardless of alignment, forgot where her vote was? I see no reason for scum to intentionally try for that as a lie.

[Cooperative Sheep]

If you think analyzing how people move off votes to other votes isn’t worthwhile scum-hunting then I don’t think we have common ground. You moved off, from my perspective, a solid wagon on scum for … umm … reasons? I think I’ve already explained my stance on Grey well enough for you to discern that I would find the move from my top scum read to what I see as a policy lynch as worth adjusting my read.

I never said anything of the sort.
What I did say was that your assessment of a wagon being used to assess my motivations for moving off is meh.
I was clear for my reasons, and never seemed to share nor agree with your take on the Grey wagon - you can choose to use this method, sure, but it's not good for assessing reasoning if you come in with a predisposed concept of value that has nothing to do with the subject's expressed thoughts - unless your claim is I've been lying about those thoughts from the get go, but by doing that you have to presume scum intent regardless of the other evidence.

[Cooperative Sheep]

On a scum flip I think Grey's vote looks the most suspect.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Lol, you just want any excuse to call me scum.

Whether he's town or scum, I am willing to bet scum are voting him - if he's scum, you look to me like the bus. Who do you think looks like the bus if not you?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that empty sheeping automatically made a vote not look bad, and also that everything you said I had to treat as truth and presume no possible ulterior motives.
My bad.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Elena

Could also do Key.
WOuld probably happily enough ride the Grey train, but I think I'm back to wanting to do that just on general principle rather than a coherent case due to his playstyle being poison.

[Cooperative Sheep]

At this point, POE for me makes her scum as well.

What does your PoE say about Key? Because he's actually my top PoE candidate.

[Cooperative Sheep]

At this point, POE for me makes her scum as well.

What does your PoE say about Key? Because he's actually my top PoE candidate.

Lol ok

Yeah, I think it is okay.

At this point, POE for me makes her scum as well.

What does your PoE say about Key? Because he's actually my top PoE candidate.

yeah, one of you guys are scum. I'm actually more leaning towards key than you at this point in the game anyways. It was pretty weird for me when you two both voted Elena, tbh.

The obvious answer is either one of us is a scumbuddy rushing for an early bus, or that your read is wrong on Elena.

WHy does Key rank behind Elena for you? Is it because you're more excited to analyze your wagon than the Momo wagon? I feel like you're not using the momo wagon, yeah?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I just have Key higher on my list because he is the one present on both lynch wagons.
Why is Elena higher for you?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I would say that overall he has posted nothing, which is a scum factor in and of itself - also if you look at where his votes have been it really doesn't look good to me. If it looks good to you, let me know.

[Cooperative Sheep]

If this game just didn't turned out to be toxic and a bunch of wall posts, I'll probably be playing this game seriously. But I'm town.

This game doesn't have very many wall posts, and even if I accept that it was toxic on Day 1, it hasn't been toxic for over a full Day phase now, so I'm not really buying that as a defense at this stage.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I would say that overall he has posted nothing, which is a scum factor in and of itself - also if you look at where his votes have been it really doesn't look good to me. If it looks good to you, let me know.

You could say at least half of this about me. Maybe even the second part depending on your opinion of Grey. Where am I on the scum-town meter?

I would note that the half I can't say about you is the votes - which is a pretty big part of PoE, so...not really sure your point here.
You fall within my scum pool, but you're not a top candidate due to basically appearing to not actually have much motive desire to lynch anyone, which is scummy, but also falls within potentially dispirited town. I could see other - I would lynch you over a big sized chunk of the game, but I'd also lynch quite a few people before you.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I didn't call him null, I called him scum whom is less scumread than other players.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I was trying to use a lot of words to convey that - it apparently didn't work.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I would say that overall he has posted nothing, which is a scum factor in and of itself - also if you look at where his votes have been it really doesn't look good to me. If it looks good to you, let me know.

You could say at least half of this about me. Maybe even the second part depending on your opinion of Grey. Where am I on the scum-town meter?

I would note that the half I can't say about you is the votes - which is a pretty big part of PoE, so...not really sure your point here.

You fall within my scum pool, but you're not a top candidate

due to basically appearing to not actually have much motive desire to lynch anyone, which is scummy, but also falls within potentially dispirited town. I could see other - I would lynch you over a big sized chunk of the game, but I'd also lynch quite a few people before you.

Here's the short version, for those with trouble reading "walls".

[Cooperative Sheep]

If you say so.

[Cooperative Sheep]

And people complain about the first 40

I'm still okay with my vote - Key is lining up lynches, so that's cute, so I'm pretty good with my reads as stated.

[Cooperative Sheep]

At the end of the day, my case is this - look at the lynch wagon, remove the masons/town reads, look at what's left.
Key looks very bad on that spread, but so does Elena/you and there was wagon energy for you, so I voted there.
That's the case.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Thats pretty bs considering keye is also voting here

If people were to get excited about my case on him enough to vote him in any particular numbers, I'd move - but I see no issue in pressing my secondary target with the support of my first target, even if you flip town the worst I get is more evidence for my case.
If you voted Key I'd still be game to lynch Key even with you as my top secondary.
Now, if Key was leading the wagon as opposed to Boon, then I would agree with you that there is some issue with me being on the wagon, but Key isn't leading the wagon, his presence in pushing it is very possibly a bus.

So besides 'top suspect is on the wagon' is there a reason I shouldn't push it? Do you think Key is instrumental in the wagon? Do you see some evidence that should rule it out as a bus for me? Or is it simply that someone I suspect is voting you?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Nah, Boon has been crowing for Elena slot to be lynched since forever ago.

In Cloud's defense, I don't actually think that translates to a case existing though

[Cooperative Sheep]

The point I'm trying to make right now is that I've never been scum numerous times, and I'm still about to know what could my scum playstyle be. Bussing doesn't fit my expected scum play category, so I'm afraid your perspective is really wrong.

If you don't know your own scum meta, I fail to see the logic in asking me to prove your scum meta - in fact you're giving me a job you know can't be done, and then calling me scummy for being unable to prove something that you also can't disprove, and that doesn't have enough evidence to have a definitive value call on it.
That's scummy for you, not me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Also, frankly, Key taking that weak excuse to unvote, makes me very content with my top reads.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Its so absurd,both of those are pushing me, are your scumreads and scum wont bus today

Key kinda isn't pushing you, he leaped off to push me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

What if we just lynch Elena slot and be happy

Vote her then.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Yeah man that's what I'm here for.

I completed my Sheep iso and I'm A. pretty convinced he(?)'s town despite one red flag and B. super curious who the main is.

I'm not trying as hard as I have on a past alt to conceal my identity - but I'm also kind of trying to obligate people to read this alt for what the playstyle is and so am trying not to advertise either.

Thus far, mostly, I think this has really just taught me some of the interesting reactions one gets to my playstyle free of the rep - which is very odd, because part of the big part of this alt is the 'cooperative' aspect, yet apparently my amin's commentary of 'meh' and 'go away' gets me more town read than open cooperation and explanation at all times.

It makes me sad for the site meta, really

[Cooperative Sheep]

I don't like that there's no counter wagon to CK

If a second vote had shown up on Key with ZZZX at some point I probably would have hopped there, that might be the counter that never was.
The thing is - how do you tell scum bussing/not having the ability to push a counter vs. scum being happy with a lynch? No counter can happen both times, for totally opposite reasons as far as town wincon goes.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Key

For the reasoning stated yesterday, he wanted that wagon elsewhere, and my VCA on him continues to point at that slot.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Key

For the reasoning stated yesterday, he wanted that wagon elsewhere, and my VCA on him continues to point at that slot.

He wanted that wagon elsewhere? I see a lot of votes and chatter about the Elena slot. How do you figure?

I figure because as soon as the wagon got steam he sprang off it, and eventually wheedled back onto it without even remotely addressing me saying he got off it for scummy reasons other than by posting a lot of pictures a day or so before, and then meekly voting again.
He didn't actually want that wagon to go through.

What is your evidence of actual intent for that lynch?
Because I see nothing.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Heck, even show me him pushing the wagon in any real way.

[Cooperative Sheep]

What is your evidence of actual intent for that lynch?
Because I see nothing.

Well, here's what I see in the iso:

I'mma add some thoughts to put it in the perspective I see

1767: You vote Elena - I include this because this starts the chain of events
1768: He asks why

Yup, because at this point he wasn't looking to get her lynched AT ALL

1770: He votes Elena based on Boonskiies 1769

And in explaining it - explains there is no case, so why does he sheep Boon and me, his top scumspect? Because he wants to...investigate the slot? None of his posting supports that - it's an utterly empty push that *looks* icky, meaning he wants it to dismantle the wagon, not support it

1789: He calls out her replacement request

Which is totally NAI and you know it, so does everyone else. It's an empty attack.

1813: He reiterates Boon's case

No he didn't, he just empty stated he was sheeping it - he never showed understanding of the case in any way.

1861: "Cloudkicker's slot can die right now" - his vote is still here

You are ignoring a number of posts wherein he was pushing me while leaving his vote on Cloud during this phase, 1817-19 is nothing but attacks on me

1880: Calls Cloud a liar

Only insomuch as Cloud saying he's town is a lie - he actually just sidesteps his case and doesn't press it.

1886: Redirects Boon back to Cloud

If Boon's vote had moved, I'd agree with you - it hadn't.

1841: ALL CAPS wants Elena slot dead

He also lines up a lynch to me in the same breath

1966: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon

Yes

1971: Reiterates commitment to Cloud wagon

No, here he is just now claiming CLoud is his top scumspect somehow, while I'm his second - which makes no sense with anything else he said before, nor with what he did after

1973: Requests your vote on Cloud wagon

No he didn't, and I was already voting Cloud even if you think he was - so, what, was he trying to get more support, or just empty making noise? WHy wasn't he trying to get someone who *wasn't* voting Cloud to move? That's actual pushing

1983: Votes you. You two had been having a bit of a back-and-forth at this point that I haven't really read

I think you should - his posts in that regard are very scummy. Also, if he had been so committed to Cloud, WHY DID HE GET OFF THE *INSTANT*THE WAGON GOT MORE SUPPORT!?! That is the opposite of wanting to lynch Cloud

2008: Still would rather lynch Cloud

Except via vote....

2015: Revotes Cloud

Yes, he did.

2022: Says Cloud is scum

Yes, he did.

In conclusion: Other than a blip of about 30 posts where he shifts his vote to you, after 1767 when the wagon forms his vote stays on the Elena/Cloud slot. In addition the vast majority of his posting after joining the wagon is about wanting the slot dead. I have no idea how you can read this and conclude that you "see nothing".

Your "blip" was maybe only 30 posts, but it was also 3-4 days, so don't try to tell me it was a short spell, he had spent 5 days voting Cloud prior to that and you're acting like every post he made was all about that lynch.

You also didn't discuss how slimy he looked getting back on - he was literally shamed into it, that is just a fact. That is not someone who wanted that lynch.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Sheep I disagree with pretty much everything you posted there but I'm not going to bog the game down attempting to counter 50 points. What I will say is this:

* I see nothing wrong with examining other players while leaving your vote somewhere
* I see nothing wrong with wanting multiple slots lynched
* I see nothing wrong with moving your vote
* I see nothing wrong with agreeing with someone else's case

1. Nor do I - but I do see a problem in suggesting it suggests a strong desire to lynch a given player.
2. Nor do I, and said nothing to suggest that - i do see an issue with sheeping onto a wagon advanced by your top scumread though.
3. Nor do I, and never said I did - I did say I saw the vote move as, specificaly, having a goal to not see a given slot lynched.
4. Nor do I - I do think his failure to ever explain it, suggests he didn't understand it/didn't care what it was, which supports my stance that it was empty.

I am annoyed that you're dinging me for not using reality while straw manning what I'm saying, your rebuttal doesn't address my actual raised issues.

[Cooperative Sheep]

2. Nor do I, and said nothing to suggest that - i do see an issue with sheeping onto a wagon advanced by your top scumread though.

I don't recall him saying Boon was a top scumread but even if he was I don't see how that's relevant. If scum want to bus each other what's the problem with helping them do it?

The scumread in this case would be me, not Boon.

3. Nor do I, and never said I did - I did say I saw the vote move as, specificaly, having a goal to not see a given slot lynched.

If that was the case the switch would've lasted more than 30 posts and would've followed the posting behavioral pattern he had with Elena/Cloud.

So you're saying he never wanted to lynch me in your opinion?

4. Nor do I - I do think his failure to ever explain it, suggests he didn't understand it/didn't care what it was, which supports my stance that it was empty.

I don't see how re-explaining someone else's case is relevant to anything. (I love the irony of this coming from someone named Cooperative Sheep btw)

My name is irrelevant to this discussion,
You advanced the idea that he re-stated Boon's case.
I countered that he simply restated that he was sheeping Boon, and at no point ever, despite his stated sheep, did he suggest or show understanding of Boon's case, nor did he describe it to anyone, or state it in a way to convince anyone with it.
You then told me that agreeing with someone's case isn't scummy.
I agree with that - but it's not my point, nor was it your original point that I was rebutting.

I'll reiterate you're free to do w/e you want and I think you're town so more power to you I guess but I'll remind you that we're extremely likely in mylo here.

Sure, which is why I actually want to discuss your idea that Key wasn't bussing versus mine that he blatantly was.
You suggested that he pushed the case - and I specifically described how he didn't, and then you complained that I wasn't talking reality when I was being fairly precise. You could come back and say you disagree with me, but to say I'm not talking reality when you don't address my screaming piint of "why did he ever unvote if he wanted the Cloud lynch?" (a point you still haven't addressed) while making up points that I never said and then acting like the debate is all a tiring chore to you...what? I don't get this at all - I've been clear about why i don't think it is a bus, and your reasoning in the reverse looks thin to me.

Why are you talking around my points?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Also, frankly, Key taking that weak excuse to unvote, makes me very content with my top reads.

This is clearly a post wherein his goal was not to lynch me, and to...test my intentions towards the Cloud lynch?
C'mon now.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Our problem today is that we'll four votes to get ZZZX lynched and with Sheep going off on a tangent that's not likely to happen. Fortunately if we don't reach a majority by deadline we'll just end up with a no lynch and we'll only need 3 tomorrow.

You're still refusing to discuss my clearly stated issue and acting like I'm just a lost little girl that needs to correct herself.

Go pound sand.

[Cooperative Sheep]

The rest of your post is a bunch of goofy conjecture. I think you'd seriously benefit from some Occam's Razor.

I don't particularly agree with Boon's contention that you're scum because I think MoI played a pretty solid town game, but would you like to actually address his issues rather than pulling another dismissive/insult move like you're doing with me?

It is not making me vibe well towards you at all.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I am town reading Sheep and ZZZx right now, and them being on key does make me a bit happier.

Would you be game to do Key before Zito? I don't feel that half of your theory team much.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I like your point #2 I'll admit, I don't really want to go into extensive debate on the rest as I'd rather see Zito pick up the sword a bit.

I do think the VCA paints Key as far more likely scum than Zito though.

[Cooperative Sheep]

We'll lynch massive if that slot flips scum
If that flips town, lynch me instead.

have a nice day/night

Ewww.

I can't see a single reason for ScumKey to vote Zito here. Even if Zito was town. Am I missing something obvious with it, guys? I really don't see a reason for Key to move off of ZZZx as scum here.

I suppose if ZZZZX is his scumbuddy.
I'll agree the move looks so bad I question why scum would do it, but...eh, my case on Key is also that he has been fairly aggressive about getting on wagons that have flipped town, so for me Zito being town is the reasoning he needs.

I don't really care what your "vibe" is (lol) I'm here to hunt the scums.

Says the guy who then offered up an answer

2. That was clearly not me giving Cloud an "out". That was me starting the scumhunting process. He was the lead wagon but like I said, instead of addressing whatever the case was against him he was making up bizarre conspiracy theories and talking gamestate which I thought was super weird. It made me suspicious because he seemed to be avoiding whatever the actual issue was. For you to believe I was giving him an "out" you'd have to decide that I replaced in and shined a spotlight on him instead of attempting to direct attention elsewhere. In addition, if the scum have daytalk like you also seem to believe, you'd have to decide that after attempting to give him this "out" he didn't take it and hammered himself anyway? What kind of plan is that?

Regarding "a scum making that decision for the potential town cred" - you can take any townie action and view it in this light. In this particular case though, for that accusation to be true you'd have to conclude that I replaced in, saw a game with very little life in it, saw a pile of dead townies, and decided to jump right on my buddy. And you'd also be contradicting your earlier point - was the purpose of the post to "give him an out" or to bus him for town cred?

@Boon - I like this stuff, the rest of his post feels meaningless, but this feels kinda town to me.
Do you disagree?

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Mod - V/LA till May 6th, work load is going to be a bit wonky for me for the next few weeks. I intend and expect to still manage at least one post a day, but may miss one here and there if sleep seems more urgent and just want it on record that I'll be back. Apologies!

[Cooperative Sheep]

I need to reread both of these and will do so first thing in the morning. My gut instinct is keyenpeedee.

You getting a vote in play would certainly help my decision making process.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I am super exhausted - but will admit my general take away from the new pages is liking my current vote and liking my current soft town on Zito. I think he's being offputting, but I think it's more personality than role PM making it happen.

[Cooperative Sheep]

That response leaves me feeling really good.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Dick

[Cooperative Sheep]

It's BS, it's still a clean town win.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Sorry all, the predicted drowning in work happened to me.

So Grey and ZZZX are both hunting Zito.
Zito is hunting no one and going full defense.
Massive is sitting and waiting.

Kind of makes me want to vote Massive, honestly. The Boon death kind of generically points at Zito, but I'd wager Boon was dead pretty much no matter what he believed barring dumb scum, so there's that.

I want to look at some VCA.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I could have sworn someone had already done some, but I'm finding no shortcuts.
This frustrates me.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Votecount 1.2

Boonskiies

:

Elena Fisher

:

Keyenpeydee

:

BlueBloodedToffee

: Boonskiies

momo

:

-Grey-

:

Jaack

:

MagnaofIllusion

:

Elena Fisher

,

mattblackguy, TwoFace, BlueBloodedToffee, Cooperative Sheep

mattblackguy

:

Lycanfire

:

Cooperative Sheep

: Jaack

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

:

TwoFace

: MagnaofIllusion, -Grey-

Votecount 1.3

Boonskiies

:

Elena Fisher

,

Cooperative Sheep, mattblackguy, TwoFace

Elena Fisher

:

Keyenpeydee

:

BlueBloodedToffee

:

momo

:

-Grey-

:

Jaack

:

MagnaofIllusion

: BlueBloodedToffee,

momo

mattblackguy

:

Lycanfire

:

Cooperative Sheep

: Jaack

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

:

TwoFace

: MagnaofIllusion, -Grey-,

Boonskiies

Votecount 1.6

Boonskiies

: Elena Fisher

Elena Fisher

:

Lycanfire, Jaack, Boonskiies

Keyenpeydee

:

BlueBloodedToffee

:

momo

: MagnaofIllusion

-Grey-

: Cooperative Sheep

Jaack

:

MagnaofIllusion

: BlueBloodedToffee,

momo, ThinkBig, TwoFace

ThinkBig

:

Lycanfire

: keyenpeydee

Cooperative Sheep

: -Grey-

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

:

TwoFace

:

Votecount 1.7

Boonskiies

: Elena Fisher

Elena Fisher

: Jaack, Boonskiies

Keyenpeydee

:

BlueBloodedToffee

:

momo

: MagnaofIllusion

-Grey-

: Cooperative Sheep

Jaack

:

MagnaofIllusion

:

BlueBloodedToffee, momo, ThinkBig, TwoFace

, -Grey-

ThinkBig

:

Lycanfire

: keyenpeydee

Cooperative Sheep

:

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

:

TwoFace

: Lycanfire

Day 1 adventures...

[Cooperative Sheep]

Looking at that it kind of feels like a Grey *or* Massive but not both.
The Magna stuff feels a little wonky, maybe because of the Mason play at work also - were scum just really content with the situation, and willing to let Elena go, or was it an Elena *or* Magna scum choice? In which case, all apologies to Elena, if I was scum I'd not exactly work hard to save her if the option was to bus Magna.
So maybe I'm wrong, and it is Grey and Massive and Magna/Zito are town. That might explain the play today of Massive running silent trying to push through the Zito wagon on the case of the dead guy.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Votecount 2.6

Boonskiies

:

Elena Fisher

: Boonskiies

Keyenpeydee

:

massive

:

momo

:

keyenpeydee

,

Elena Fisher,

MagnaofIllusion,

Cooperative Sheep, Titus

, -Grey-

-Grey-

: massive

Aristophanes

:

MagnaofIllusion

:

Cooperative Sheep

: momo

ZZZX

:

Titus

:

Not Voting

: Aristophanes, ZZZX

No Lynch

:

Lynch has been achieved.

Day 2 is a bit of a voting wasteland - I personally tend to guardedly claim that scum Magna doesn't hop on like that with scumpartner Elena, whereas Grey makes sense.

This also says to me that either Grey or Magna, maybe both, are scum.
I could be so happy with a Grey scum. At least I would have been spot on early.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Votecount 3.4

Boonskiies

:

CloudKicker

:

Boonskiies, Cooperative Sheep

, -Grey-,

Keyenpeydee

,

CloudKicker

Keyenpeydee

: ZZZX

massive

:

-Grey-

: massive

Aristophanes

:

MagnaofIllusion

:

Cooperative Sheep

:

ZZZX

:

Not Voting

: Aristophanes, MagnaofIllusion, CloudKicker

No Lynch

:

Lynch has been achieved.

So Grey is the only possible busser.
Day 3 was quick, but it wasn't so quick as to deny bussing options.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm getting tired now - Day 4 obviously deserves a look.

I'm currently thinking Grey + ??? as the scumteam, because I just sort of figure somebody bussed - otherwise that's a pure town aggro lolwtfscum wagon, and I don't feel we did that.
There was a bit of pushback, I'm probably wanting to go and look at it to see who was the strongest defender, call them town, and then try to suss out a second strongest defender and call them scum. That might help me sort the Massive/ZZZX/Zito trifecta.

I think Day 1 is still making me want to call Zito the towniest one left. That's an odd day if both are scum I think. Maybe I should look back at Boon's mega connections wall, but I'm not sure he addressed that aspect or not. Probably it was just him calling someone town and then deciding they're the least town.

So I'm leaning Zito = town.
Grey - scumz
ZZZX/Massive - partner.

@Zito - what is your take on this? You now have a buddy, stop being pure defense and analyze my thoughts here, what do you think makes sense/doesn't?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I will say that Grey sticking a vote on me out the gate and leaving it when his reasoning is so incredibly flimsy does put a point in his scum column. It would make some sense if the two scumpartners decided during the night to plonk one vote on me and wait for a townie to bite.

I agree.

For your wagons I'd have to look at context on why people hopped on or off.

Why don't you look at them then?

I find it interesting you colored BBT (my slot) green in at least two of those VCs.

I actually only did it once as far as I can see, and had it correctly colored in the count right before.
But do you have any expansion to the idea? "Interesting" is generally short hand on site for "scummy" so are you calling me scummy, or are you saying nothing at all?
If it's scummy - how is it scummy?
If you're saying nothing - why are you mentioning it?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Oh, actually, no, you're right, 163 I did it also.
My questions can still stand though.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Well, I was hoping you'd have a better explanation than "I did it right previously" since one of them was 1.2 (the first one) but I have another question about it : How do the vote counts you quoted from Day 1 point to "massive or Grey but not both"?

Because I don't find it likely that scum would go for such a concentrated push on Magna at a point when the game was in soup mode that early - you don't double down on derp as an intelligent play, which makes it less likely to my mind that you would be buddies.

Why is it scummy? Because scum would have additional knowledge and not remember that BBT was replaced by me, and assume they were dead and town.

So you're saying I was scum who knew you were town but forgot you were alive twice, but remembered at other times that you were alive?
I don't get it.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Votecount 4.3

Boonskiies

:

Keyenpeydee

: Cooperative Sheep[/color], ZZZX

massive

:

-Grey-

:

Papa Zito

:

Boonskiies, Keyenpeydee

Cooperative Sheep

:

ZZZX

: Papa Zito, -Grey-

Not Voting

: massive

No Lynch

:

The leading wagons are Keyenpeydee, ZZZX and Papa Zito at 2 votes (L-2)
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Votecount 4.5

Boonskiies

:

Keyenpeydee

: Cooperative Sheep[/color], ZZZX, -Grey-,

Boonskiies

massive

:

-Grey-

:

Papa Zito

:

Keyenpeydee

Cooperative Sheep

:

ZZZX

: Papa Zito

Not Voting

: massive,

No Lynch

:

Lynch has been acheived.
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

The first count is really interesting because it's three competing wagons, we had three choices and ended up on a wrong one.
The Zito wagon was absolutely being pushed by two town, so it's lack of growth is a burr in my backside for the Zito read.
The flip of that is that he didn't touch the Key wagon, so if he's scum it means either ZZZX or Grey are his buddies.
He's come out hard on ZZZX, so that feels like an unlikely pairing, also ZZZX was on Key earlier, so Grey is the one who actually may have theory moved for protection purposes.
Massive avoided everything. Leaves him wide open.

So I don't think ZZZX/Zito makes sense.
If Zito is scum Grey is the most likely partner looking at that, but Grey is the one who opened up on Zito today.
Grey/Massive remains fine from this phase, as does ZZZX paired with either of them.
I think it is safe to say that there is assured minimum 1 scum in ZZZX or Grey.

@Grey - why are you so confident in Zito? Boon was wrong about Key, is your theory that he was killed due to assured pressure to come on Zito, or is your theory simply that his analysis was right n Zito regardless of his death? If you liked his case on Zito so much, why didn't you support it yesterday?

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Grey - why are you so confident in Zito? Boon was wrong about Key, is your theory that he was killed due to assured pressure to come on Zito, or is your theory simply that his analysis was right n Zito regardless of his death? If you liked his case on Zito so much, why didn't you support it yesterday?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Two votes on Grey.
I'm confirmed not scum unless he's my partner.
Whassup bitches?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I still kind of lean Massive at this point, I don't like his vote, nor the lack of build to it.
If he's scum that would make Zito his partner though, which I'm less happy with.

Would people be game to lynch Massive?
I'd like to lynch Massive. I know we've functionally got a coin flip for scum right now, but I'm really conflicted in my reads on Zito and Grey.

[Cooperative Sheep]

ZZZX going for Zito but then backpedaling vibes towny to me I think. Feels like someone who acted on emotion, and then cold paranoia set in, and paranoia is a town tell.

[Cooperative Sheep]

So Massive/Zito
or Grey/ZZZX

Don't really love either option, but it's got to be one of em barring someone deciding to try a bus at this stage.
I dunno.
Sunday is my day off, I'll actually find time to engage bran and make a value call then.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Brain.
Der gawd I need sleep.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Hello all.
I'm hyper confirmed.
Let me look stuff over and offer some thoughts.

I'mma leaning Massive as scum at the moment, but I want to reassess my Zito read because I still lean him town because of Magna, but Magna may just be playing scum well.

[Cooperative Sheep]

ZZZX feels really good to me.
Grey...ugh, headache.
Massive feels very scum.
Zito could be scum, he has been very fighty when questioned on almost anything.

VOTE: Massive

Spin them dice, and let the heads fall where they may.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Assuredly, but for which faction?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Man, I was ready to come in hard on you two if I lived today. So aggravating that I was correct that day I lynched Elena with basically the entirety of the scum team. I thought maybe how hard I was pushing Zito I would potentially live.

In what universe would we ever have let the leader of the wagon on the only flipped scum live after killing all the Masons?
You were basically confirmed - so you got to eat bullets. That's what you get for crossing us in the streets, yo

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm not sure how much pride scum can really take. We didn't play a bad game, but town didn't play a good game. There was basically never a point there was any cohesion - as I mentioned in the QT, one of the concepts behind this alt is to intentionally play in a way I think more people should play on site.

Answer every question.
Perform every request.
Be willing to vote secondary and tertiary reads with ease early and often.

It's been a bear to test though, as I think I've only pulled town *one friggin time* since making the alt.
But this game was full of the issues I see nowadays for town. I remember back when I initially started playing rougher and more recalcitrant - I was amongst the minority. Nowadays everyone does it, I don't think it's a good playstyle in that sort of environment. I might be wrong, but it felt like what sank town in this game - there was hardly a lack of decent reads, and multiple players sussed to the scum team, often even at similar times, there was just usually at least one other wrong read they became married to, and no one coordinated really besides me, and I had agendas.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Eh, whatevs, I'll take the pride
I'm the bestest scum evah!

[Cooperative Sheep]

I get Night Killed every game I'm in now. It's a rough life.

Sounds like a compliment.

[Cooperative Sheep]

Had to agree that town didn't play a good game.

It's an interesting issue, because I actually think most of the individual players played a good game throughout.
Town, as a group, played badly though.

[Cooperative Sheep]

VOTE: Boonskies

Baaaah

This is a troll bad town slot.

This was also an early Day 1 read.

I was a troll bad scum slot

Zito has a very fair point that if you honestly stopped believing your scum read on him then you absolutely should have stopped pushing him. You went to your death, as town, calling out a player you're saying you weren't really scum reading because you didn't want to shift your reads - a player that scum later was easily able to have an option to lynch because at least one town straight sheeped your value call? That's objectively not good play. As town you should focus on stating your reads as you have them, not sticking to things you're uncertain of because you're scared it will make you look scummy. Also, I think that was an unfair concern for you, you were highly unlikely to get lynched after the Elena lynch, so why not just play more honestly?

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm not saying you did - but you're saying your thoughts on Zito at the end of the day were muddled, but your last posts about him were teling us absolutely to lynch him

Zito is getting lynched tomorrow no matter what, no waffling about it. I had stated that prior to key's outburst, and for the off chance that Key is just trying to cause WIFOM with it, we're going to have to decide between Grey and massive.

Prior to that you repeatedly said he was assured scum.
Today you're saying that, at the time, your read was anything but certain but you didn't want to say that because you'd already called him scum.
I'm saying that, as town, it is your duty to clarify your reads, especially if you're basically a 99.9% night kill - which you obviously were.

[Cooperative Sheep]

I must have misunderstood something, no worries.

[Cooperative Sheep]

That's an intense and unfair assessment I feel.