Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[MMM]

VOTE: Titus I feel like if I don't vote you now you're gonna tunnel me again and I don't like being tunnelled

[MMM]

VOTE: Titus I feel like if I don't vote you now you're gonna tunnel me again and I don't like being tunnelled

?

I'm deathly scared of you from that vengeful marathon game where you were the only one who thought I was scum and tunnelled me on it ok don't judge me

[MMM]

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

[MMM]

Not associating anyone that's just who I think is scummiest atm

Titus for reactions on me
Mort/BYF gives me TvS vibes
GE just feels scummy to me

[MMM]

Also it's the first 5 pages it's bound to be superficial

[MMM]

Not associating anyone that's just who I think is scummiest atm

Titus for reactions on me
Mort/BYF gives me TvS vibes
GE just feels scummy to me

Who would you say is the town and the scum in BYF/Mort then?

Mort feels more town to me rn tbh

[MMM]

I don't think being worried about being incriminated by scum it inherently scummy, however page 2 is just way too early for that. "Coincidentally", Titus pointed out 7 posts earlier that Mort was also just looking for things to attack... I just wonder whether actually got two scum right there or it's actually too good to be true.

[MMM]

I don't think being worried about being incriminated by scum it inherently scummy, however page 2 is just way too early for that. "Coincidentally", Titus pointed out 7 posts earlier that Mort was also just looking for things to attack... I just wonder whether actually got two scum right there or it's actually too good to be true.

The two scum being me and Yoshi? That doesn't make sense. Actually this whole post doesn't make sense. What is the relevance of Titus' (correct) observation that I was just looking for things to attack?

The two scum that I saw would be Yoshi and Titus. I don't think it was wrong for Mort to attack Yoshi when and how he did given that at that phase in the game you do have to do something to cause game progression, Titus seemed really quick to chainsaw and BYF picked up on Titus' defense quickly.

[MMM]

Why does everything have to happen when I'm not here <.<

[MMM]

Town: MortFeld, Ircher, Hikari Link
All of these should be quite obvious tbh

Null: MarioManiac4, TwoFace, NotTheRealPaul, ChannelDelibird, Tarkus
The last 3 haven't said much and I'm undecided on MM4 and TF.

Scum: Gamma Emerald, Titus, BigYoshiFan, Transcend
Already explained my first 3, Transcend is just being... weird? I feel like he's just gonna dismiss me by saying I can't meta him tbh

VOTE: BigYoshiFan

[MMM]

Two face and two face what

He's a doublevoter

[MMM]

yoshi wagon sucks

Something can be done about that.
VOTE: Transcend

[MMM]

Regarding the Transcend wagon:

I don't like this wagon. Most games I've got at least one townie tunneling me hard. I just set some people off for some reason. It's rarely (if ever) scum who have this reaction. I don't think there was much for Transcend to gain as scum for pushing me as hard as he did for such poor reasons as scum. I feel like his gut just tells him that I'm a dirty scumbag and now it's just a matter of whether or not he will succumb to confirmation bias permanently.

That is... actually not why I'm lynching him.

[MMM]

voting* screw different sites and their different terminologies

[MMM]

Oh, my bad then. I'm still keeping the vote for the time being though.

[MMM]

Oh, my bad then. I'm still keeping the vote for the time being though.

It's a free country. For now. But could you explain what your reasoning is?

I'll explain later - I feel like it would be counter-intuitive if I did it now.

[MMM]

Town have extremely legitimate reasons to worry about looking suspicious. People can and are misinterpreted and mislynched.

Town shouldn't care how people perceive them. Town shouldn't worry about being mislynched. Especially if you don't do scummy things. Every townie who's been mislynched has been guilty of doing things that they shouldn't have done. Lying, lurking, contradictions, whatever.

Be transparent, honest, and active and don't worry about how you are perceived. That's how I always play. Go look at all my games. I give zero fucks what people think of me. I tell the truth, I stay active, and I call things as I see it.

(See this is why I don't like reading wall posts. This post does nothing to help the game, it's a mafia theory discussion )

Important power roles would still have very good reason to be worried about looking scummy no matter how you look at it.

[MMM]

Ok, is really no one seeing what I see in Mortfield?

I don't know about you but I see town.

[MMM]

Examples of these random potshots? Cause I see nothing like that.

His entire ISO looks like that to me. :/ I don't see follow through or analysis. Just a random question out in left field I cannot find out why he's asking.

It's fair enough to say he did that around page 2, where it was deliberate but if you have any concrete examples (other than "his entire ISO") that would be appreciated.

It seems like he's trying to look like a scumhunter, but I don't really see any of the conviction behind the scumhunting.
Weak but w/e

I find myself having a harder time getting into this than my other games so I can see where you're coming from with that.

[MMM]

Ok, is really no one seeing what I see in Mortfield?

I don't know about you but I see town.

This. Although, I'm not sure that MMM is town at this point.

Would have been more surprised if you were sure already.

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

Yup
I'm
definitely
an
idiot
where's my fucking double vote when I need it

Titus wks my mislynches

She hasn't yet

She's prob scum

Keep that in mind

MMM is the worst vote on me so far

Reasoning????????

[MMM]

what the FUCK am I even looking at?

[MMM]

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

>calling everyone lynching him idiots

I don't like his progression through the game

I don't like his pre flip associations

>not a single example

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

Not associating anyone that's just who I think is scummiest atm

Titus for reactions on me
Mort/BYF gives me TvS vibes
GE just feels scummy to me

This is junk

This is junk too

Mort help get the votes off of me lol

>does ate

I'm bad at defending myself unless i ate/wifom which i don't like doing

>talks about ateing next post

I'm sorry is this mafia or is this a fucking popularity contest?

[MMM]

MMM - maybe take an honest look at how much of 388 is scum indicative, and how much is a playstyle issue?

No I'm at the point where I don't fucking care anymore I'm not here to be dubbed a fucking idiot by some random shit on the internet. He can be a fucking infinite-shot Bulletproof Day-Bloodhound for all everyone fucking cares. I don't give a fucking shit. He's dead to me.

[MMM]

Sure was a dramatic exit.

[MMM]

Uhh ok MMM lol

Combatting anti-town play with anti-town play. That's what I find love to see

Anti-town or not I'm not here to be insulted.

[MMM]

Sure was a dramatic exit.

Of what's been posted, this is the most important thing you have to say?

Do you want me to say anything else to someone who's gonna OMGUS everyone by calling them fucking idiots?

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

My suspicion isn't gone, but I want to reevaluate the game state when I can. Need to see if there was blatant opportunism on the Transcend wagon, if Titus is worthy of consideration, and a few other things.

@BigYoshiFan: If you townread Transcend now, get your vote off of him. Same goes for anybody else still parked on him.

Having caught up with the thread I still don't read him as town. And I see zero town in any single one of his actions.

I can't control what I find scummy. I do try to look for town motivation but I don't see any. I also don't see anyone explaining it to me either.

Like why would town feel the need to force people to townread them by doing stupid things instead of just letting happen natural by doing the towniest thing you could do, scum hunt?

Transcend didn't bother to explain to me why he did what he did. Neither did anyone else.

People don't like losing - I agree so they should scum hunt. They shouldn't decided to make a bunch of BS posts and say "look I'm obvtowning" because you aren't going to find scum that way and you're going to draw negative attention on you instead.

Being mislynched feels like losing - i get that so do everything in your power to prevent that. Scum hunt, ask questions, make good arguments and respond appropriately when people disagree with you. If you still get lynched you at least left behind a good body of work. If you don't do these things you have hurt town, not helped.

LITERALLY THIS SO MUCH

Look Transcend, if all you're going to do is shit on TwoFace because he's conftown and you aren't, I'd like it if you did sub out. It blocks people who actually do want to read the game. He has every right to play his way, as long as he doesn't tell you how to play.

TwoFace is conftown how??? Like I read him as obvtown but conf???

Grey replaces NotTheRealPaul effective immediatly. Please welcome him

Sorry for your loss.

Trust me Grey is a fun guy to mod a game with :^)

[MMM]

[

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

My suspicion isn't gone, but I want to reevaluate the game state when I can. Need to see if there was blatant opportunism on the Transcend wagon, if Titus is worthy of consideration, and a few other things.

@BigYoshiFan: If you townread Transcend now, get your vote off of him. Same goes for anybody else still parked on him.

Having caught up with the thread I still don't read him as town. And I see zero town in any single one of his actions

Is this referring to me or Transcend?

Transcend

[MMM]

Grey replaces NotTheRealPaul effective immediatly. Please welcome him

Sorry for your loss.

Trust me Grey is a fun guy to mod a game with :^)

That was actually directed at Grey for the shit he's gonna have to read through here.

[MMM]

TwoFace is conftown how??? Like I read him as obvtown but conf???

people think because I am confirmed double voter I am confirmed town. while I don't disagree with that because I am actually town, a mafia double voter is technically possible.

that said if I am not nk'd I should probably be lynched before lylo/mylo (which actually will be much earlier with me alive)

I don't think scum doublevoter would reveal their second vote this early but ya instantly clearing you as town is naive at best.

Also if Transcend says anything important then someone else tell me pls I'm not paying attention to his posts anymore at this point unless I have to.

[MMM]

TwoFace is conftown how??? Like I read him as obvtown but conf???

people think because I am confirmed double voter I am confirmed town. while I don't disagree with that because I am actually town, a mafia double voter is technically possible.

that said if I am not nk'd I should probably be lynched before lylo/mylo (which actually will be much earlier with me alive)

I don't think scum doublevoter would reveal their second vote this early but ya instantly clearing you as town is naive at best.

Also if Transcend says anything important then someone else tell me pls I'm not paying attention to his posts anymore at this point unless I have to.

Most double voters are autorevealed on site meta.

Doesn't seem like it in this game given he wasn't modconfirmed and only has a single vote in this count:

Official VC 1.0

The largest wagon is at L-3 (Gamma Emerald)

ChannelDelibird (1) [Hikari Link]
BigYoshiFan (2) [Tarkus, Gamma Emerald]
Gamma Emerald (4) [TwoFace, Ircher, MortFeld, Transcend]
TwoFace (1) [BigYoshiFan]
MortFeld (1) [Titus]


Not Voting (4) [MarioManiac4, NotTheRealPaul, ChannelDelibird, MMM]

Accurate to Post #60

With 13 Alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Mod Notes

No one is on V/LA
I'm going to do some hocus pocus and pagetop this when you guys post a bit more

Flavour

HTML stands for Hypertext Markup Language.
It's what makes webpages look like webpages.

That aside,

we are lynching transcend

[MMM]

@Mod: Can we have a vote count? It's been 8 pages since the last one.

[MMM]

Doesn't seem like it in this game given he wasn't modconfirmed and only has a single vote in this count:

I had not placed my 2nd vote yet so that's why it was not shown in that VC

The point I was making is that you weren't automatically revealed though.

[MMM]

Frankly, ignore everything I said about Transcend after he basically insulted me. At that point I snapped and wanted him dead for whatever shit reasoning I could come up with.
I'm just happy he's replacing out and I can play somewhat normally now.

[MMM]

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

>calling everyone lynching him idiots

I do that as town.

How is that alignment indicative?

Just because you don't like something, doesn't make it scum-motivated.

Been over this.

Frankly, ignore everything I said about Transcend after he basically insulted me. At that point I snapped and wanted him dead for whatever shit reasoning I could come up with.
I'm just happy he's replacing out and I can play somewhat normally now.

Is the post where he insulted you the one where he called everyone on his wagon idiots?

I think you might benefit from thicker skin.

There's not that many things that piss me the fuck off like that. Insulting my intelligence is one of them and I'm certainly not going to get thicker skin regarding this any time soon.

388 was will after the to examples he posted in 381, where he said he provided no examples.

the issue is mmm explained his reads were not pre associative, they were just his top scum reads so transcend's accusation that came AFTER mmm already explained that was a false accusation.

I don't care. Just because somebody says words, doesn't make them true.

He provided 2 suspected *groupings* of scum.

4 players split into two groups of two, with neither player in the other group.

That's an association read no matter what excuses he makes.

Period.

Did not.

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

This = Titus + One of BYF/Mort + GE. Which is to say ONE team where a single slot could vary. Notice how I also said scum

team

instead of

teams

. I have no idea where you get "2 groupings" from... that wasn't what I was saying at all.

Finally. All caught up.

VOTE: MMM

Think I'll just chainsaw a bit because I agree with Transcend about his associatives and the vitriol he's been spitting doesn't feel like the town MMM I've been playing with.

Considering he's played with me twice, he should be used to far worse than what Transcend had done this game.

Not buying the 'tude.

There's a huge difference between Transcend this game and Firescreamer in both our games. Namely: Firescreamer didn't call me a fucking idiot.

[MMM]

If it's about you, then the "worst" I saw from you was d1 in 1783 honestly. Also, you usually gave reasoning for whatever you did or followed up with it when it was appropriate.

[MMM]

MMM, gun to your head, which of Yoshi/Mort are scum?

I'm not feeling a Titus lynch on d1, and Gamma is an easy target.

Fixed

Spoiler:

Ok, this looks like weak town Transcend. I can't really do much with naked reasons, but that generally is how he likes to play town. So I'll put him as town for now and hope he gives more later.

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

>calling everyone lynching him idiots

I don't like his progression through the game

I don't like his pre flip associations

>not a single example

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

Not associating anyone that's just who I think is scummiest atm

Titus for reactions on me
Mort/BYF gives me TvS vibes
GE just feels scummy to me

This is junk

This is junk too

Mort help get the votes off of me lol

>does ate

I'm bad at defending myself unless i ate/wifom which i don't like doing

>talks about ateing next post

I'm sorry is this mafia or is this a fucking popularity contest?

Baaah.

Willing to vote Trans based on this and TwoFace.

These don't coincide well with me, especially if it's TwoFace's 153 post that you're referring to.

That's the best reason for a scumread I have at the moment.
VOTE: Titus

If anything I think that makes Titus look slightly townier since town re-evaluates peoples' scumminess. Voting for that doesn't come off that well to me. Still prefer a Transcend lynch though.

[MMM]

Still prefer a Transcend lynch though.

Considering the wagon consists of pretty much all my townreads, I'm willing to vote there on that basis alone to end the day.

My townread of Transcend is shaky, think I'm just worried about mislynching an antitown player for being anti-town.

That's why I was wanting his replacement to have a chance to make or break the slot.

I'm more than willing to let the sub speak and convince me to lynch Yoshi instead but my vote is staying until I have reasonable confidence that the Transcend slot isn't scum.
Also since when am I a townread?

[MMM]

388 was will after the to examples he posted in 381, where he said he provided no examples.

the issue is mmm explained his reads were not pre associative, they were just his top scum reads so transcend's accusation that came AFTER mmm already explained that was a false accusation.

I don't care. Just because somebody says words, doesn't make them true.

He provided 2 suspected *groupings* of scum.

4 players split into two groups of two, with neither player in the other group.

That's an association read no matter what excuses he makes. Period.

I'm sorry, but what does "associative" mean here? Isn't anything with a group of people associative?

So if I say A, B and C are scum
and D, E and F are town
with no reasoning whatsoever
is that associative?

[MMM]

Well, with reason of course. You put those people in a group for a reason, right? Their interactions, more likely than not, with each other. Isn't that associative?

It's associative if your reasoning is associative. I don't think it's implausible that your town and scum reads make themselves look like town or scum by their own merits and not by association with other people.

[MMM]

@MOD: -Grey- has been banned and needs replacement

.....Oh what.

[MMM]

With the bit of time I have right now:

like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.

Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

[MMM]

With the bit of time I have right now:

like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.

Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

What was the reason to get on?

I wanted to get reactions (and of course I wouldn't say it immediately would I) and all I saw him do in response was criticise every single lynch and continuing to give random reads with barely any explanation (which to be fair I know people do but the extent to which he did it rubbed me the wrong way)

[MMM]

I'm suspicious that you figured his reaction would be along those lines, like setting a test he was bound to fail (in your eyes) in order to justify pushing his wagon.

What kinda reaction would you expect if he's town?

Him actually getting off his ass and doing shit in a way that is at least somewhat understandable.

It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything

Nah it really isn't.

Agree to disagree.

@MMM: Do you happen to have any completed games where somebody has called you an idiot or otherwise insulted your intelligence? This could easily confirm your claim.

No completed games on Mafiascum or other forums. I mostly play on PS where the games aren't stored [publicly] to refer back to later. Gamma might be able to confirm but I'm not sure if he ever witnessed a similar reaction.

With the bit of time I have right now:

like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.

Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?

I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

[MMM]

It

was

seemed

however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything

Nah it really isn't.

Agree to disagree.

I need to make myself understood better sometimes.

[MMM]

Also knowing SC is Grey makes me mad because SC lied to me in a newbie game.

Who's SC?

[MMM]

Also knowing SC is Grey makes me mad because SC lied to me in a newbie game.

Who's SC?

Stone Cold.

If that's the case then that's fucking gross.

[MMM]

MN 1848. I think one or two scum were on the wagon but a lot of town were too obviously.

I'm SRing Titus because her push on me is very bad and she has continually avoided my prods to expand on it. Similar situation for her Yoshi push.

Personally Titus seemed townier to me after seeing her re-evaluate Transcend... I'll have another look later.
Also as for the replace outs I'm not gonna read anyone based on them, just so everyone knows.

[MMM]

Titus is null to me atm. Maybe I'm overly sympathetic due to similar feelings about Transcend but I do feel like lack of motivation caused by certain players here is a possibility.

[MMM]

397, and her reads in general, look horrifically opportunistic.
She calls Transcend weak town in 182 based on his playstyle, so I find it hard to believe she was convinced he was scum after 388 and whatever TwoFace has said.
She still hasn't explained her read on me, and perhaps even ignored my request to explain it.
She doesn't have anything original that she's pushing (except Mortfeld I suppose), just other opinions.

@TwoFace
She left without explaining her read on me (and Mort, as he claims). I don't think a Town Titus would leave without explaining.

If that was me and I was fed up to hell with the game I'd leave without explaining anything regardless of alignment honestly. Might just be me though.

[MMM]

SC didn't exactly lie. But I asked if I had played with his main and he said "maybe." Lol.

Oh, that. Grey says that all the time too, tbh.

[MMM]

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

[MMM]

Right.
Titus' sub-out comes off as less genuine for that reason, would you agree?

Just because we can't explain it doesn't necessarily mean it's not genuine.

Titus- the only one who was willing to try and discuss the game with me, feels town in the posting, weird wagon
Ircher- actually Ircher hasn't done much, I could possibly lynch it I guess?
MortFeld- scumhunting a lot and putting effort into it, don't see scum here
Transcend- felt town earlygame, ate is a logical fallacy but usually NAI
TwoFace- doublevoter is a plus and he is actively scumhunting.
BigYoshiFan- ? not sure on this one tbh, iso'd him earlier and his posts didn't really have any clear scum motivation
Gamma Emerald- actually looking back I don't really like this slot, feels like he's making a lot of posts that seem to have the motivation to look like scumhunting but he doesn't really do anything with the answers to his questions. I guess this would be my primary scumread?
Tarkus- his posts make sense and they resonate with me so this slot is probtown
-Grey- (replaces NotTheRealPaul)- he put a lot of effort into catching up into this game, and I don't think he'd want to aggravate me for no reason when he basically told me to stfu earlier.
ChannelDelibird- his hikari vote isn't great but he has made one post
MMM- I used to think this was scum but now I'm not sure- his explanation of his positions make sense and he's starting to feel progressively townier.
Hikari Link- in a game of spamposting and nullity he has taken explicit steps to advance the game. town.

Titus isn't that townie to be quite honest - just not that scummy. Grey aggravates people a lot in general, so I think it's NAI. Tarkus needs to post more before he can convince me he's town. Ircher has indeed not done a whole bunch but what he has done does feel like it comes from town. TwoFace isn't an IC but he seems townie to me. ChannelDelibird needs to post more and Transcend's sub will have a lot of convincing to do too.
Other than what I mentioned I'm mostly in agreement with your reads (which is to say I agree with you on <50% of all players lol)

[MMM]

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

[MMM]

Right.
Titus' sub-out comes off as less genuine for that reason, would you agree?

Just because we can't explain it doesn't necessarily mean it's not genuine.

Titus- the only one who was willing to try and discuss the game with me, feels town in the posting, weird wagon
Ircher- actually Ircher hasn't done much, I could possibly lynch it I guess?
MortFeld- scumhunting a lot and putting effort into it, don't see scum here
Transcend- felt town earlygame, ate is a logical fallacy but usually NAI
TwoFace- doublevoter is a plus and he is actively scumhunting.
BigYoshiFan- ? not sure on this one tbh, iso'd him earlier and his posts didn't really have any clear scum motivation
Gamma Emerald- actually looking back I don't really like this slot, feels like he's making a lot of posts that seem to have the motivation to look like scumhunting but he doesn't really do anything with the answers to his questions. I guess this would be my primary scumread?
Tarkus- his posts make sense and they resonate with me so this slot is probtown
-Grey- (replaces NotTheRealPaul)- he put a lot of effort into catching up into this game, and I don't think he'd want to aggravate me for no reason when he basically told me to stfu earlier.
ChannelDelibird- his hikari vote isn't great but he has made one post
MMM- I used to think this was scum but now I'm not sure- his explanation of his positions make sense and he's starting to feel progressively townier.
Hikari Link- in a game of spamposting and nullity he has taken explicit steps to advance the game. town.

Titus isn't that townie to be quite honest - just not that scummy. Grey aggravates people a lot in general, so I think it's NAI. Tarkus needs to post more before he can convince me he's town. Ircher has indeed not done a whole bunch but what he has done does feel like it comes from town. TwoFace isn't an IC but he seems townie to me. ChannelDelibird needs to post more and Transcend's sub will have a lot of convincing to do too.
Other than what I mentioned I'm mostly in agreement with your reads (which is to say I agree with you on <50% of all players lol)

@grey; the thing was that there was no scum motivation for trying to make me more emotive rly.
@Ircher; Meta is generally bad but it can be good in specific cases- and Ircher's play here doesn't really fit what I've seen him as when I played town!him in a handful of game.

I'm fairly certain that just because there's no scum motivation on every single post a person makes, that doesn't make them town...
And re: Ircher, that was my read anyway. I dislike meta and I'd avoid using it seriously as much as possible honestly - and as for whether your meta read is right, I do not know.

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

[MMM]

obvtown
{Hikari Link}
{Ircher,

-Grey-

, TwoFace, MortFeld}
{

Tarkus, Titus, ChannelDelibird

}
{BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald, MarioManiac4}
{

Transcend

}
obvscum

Sadly can't do that much with this given that 3 people (Transcend, -Grey-, Titus) need a replacement and 2 (ChannelDelibird, Tarkus) have hardly said anything. The only one of those slots that I have any confidence on is Transcend (I know I placed Grey in my townlean pile but at the same time he always seems townie to me, and that's considering I played him in both my completed games so far, so my confidence in my read on him is low) and technically his sub can still convince me not to lynch him.

Also offtopic but how long's it been since mods started looking for replacements... 2 and a half days almost, I think? We might never even get them at this rate which would be really disappointing as I was looking forward to this quite a bit.

@Hikari response coming in new post

[MMM]

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Wouldn't that be indicative of his personalty then, not his playstyle or his alignment motivations?

No I think if he was town he would have at least tried doing SOMETHING, but yet he didn't. Unless he gets banned for being a huge troll or something that's the way my read of his actions is going to stay.

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

I feel like we have different definitions of "caught." And you're applying your definition as though everybody feels it is the same definition. For all you know, one or both of them could feel that L-2 is serious enough to be considered caught.

That said, I'm not saying that caught scum necessarily have to replace out because they are caught. They can be caught and they can be scum and they can replace out, but that doesn't me that they replaced out because they were caught scum.

We might have. And yes, I do tend to assume that I am obviously in the right a lot of the time even if it's not really obvious and sometimes even if I'm not right. Perhaps all my viewpoints on the matter of subbing out come from the fact that I have a somewhat petty dislike for giving up until having actually tried everything I could.

[MMM]

Got the prod. Been busy with exams and such. Catching up. Hopefully will get a reply done by today, if not I'll send it in tomorrow.

[MMM]

If I missed out on anyone's questions/other stuff lemme know I'm done with the catchup game

Spoiler: Regarding Transcend

In post 729, Hikari Link wrote:
In post 699, MMM wrote:
With the bit of time I have right now:
In post 692, MarioManiac4 wrote:
like the reasoning behind all of the emotion related to transcend is basically non-existent, like he tunnelled transcend and I'm not really buying that this was because transcend called him an idiot backhandedly. I feel like he may have been seeking a way out of a Transcend wagon he didn't want to stay on.
Being called an idiot wasn't the reason to get on
It was however an amazing reason to stay on afterwards and shit on him for everything
If he wasn't subbed my vote would be parked, even if he's subbed it probably is
No clue what you mean by "didn't want to stay on", I'm perfectly fine with doing so //shrug

Why would your vote stay parked, even if he is subbed?
I said probably. The sub has a lot of convincing to do. (if we ever get one)

I think you misunderstand me. I'm asking you why that's the case. Other than insult you, what activity made him

so

scummy that even with a replacement, his slot can't be redeemed.

When Transcend was still in and I hadn't voted him yet it seemed to me like it could really just be a playstyle thing, but by the time he subbed out he changed literally nothing and just kept spewing what at least seemed to be nonsense the entire time. And I feel like it's deliberate, and hence scum motivated.

Wouldn't that be indicative of his personalty then, not his playstyle or his alignment motivations?

No I think if he was town he would have at least tried doing SOMETHING, but yet he didn't. Unless he gets banned for being a huge troll or something that's the way my read of his actions is going to stay.

What are you basing that assumption on? Also, please point out the approximate post where he went to obvscum status on your chart.

Spoiler: Right here

Getting d1ed by a bunch of idiots who can't read me.

Lame.

>calling everyone lynching him idiots

I don't like his progression through the game

I don't like his pre flip associations

>not a single example

Titus+Mort/BYF+GE for early scum team imo

Not associating anyone that's just who I think is scummiest atm

Titus for reactions on me
Mort/BYF gives me TvS vibes
GE just feels scummy to me

This is junk

This is junk too

Mort help get the votes off of me lol

>does ate

I'm bad at defending myself unless i ate/wifom which i don't like doing

>talks about ateing next post

I'm sorry is this mafia or is this a fucking popularity contest?

Spoiler: Regarding Replacing Out

Also, why did she wait until now to replace out if it was for that reason?

That's something I can't answer either, but I can say almost for sure none of the replace-outs were caught scum. (Maybe scum, definitely not caught)

And now it becomes a trust tell... sigh.

It's not a trust tell, it's just NAI.

How can you reconcile these two statements when both of them subbed out when they had a large wagon on them? If they were scum, they were fairly caught. So if you say that they weren't caught scum, it sounds like a trust tell. I'm not trying to misrepresent you, I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Wagons can easily shift over time even if for a few days there are only a couple of people that are being focused on/wagoned. Unless 75% of the town says a person is scum (or there is evidence from a cop/similar), wagons can change, and therefore scum is not caught at all.
Just because there is a large wagon on you, heck even if it's at L-1, does not mean that if you replace out the reasoning HAS to be that you're caught scum.

I feel like we have different definitions of "caught." And you're applying your definition as though everybody feels it is the same definition. For all you know, one or both of them could feel that L-2 is serious enough to be considered caught.

That said, I'm not saying that caught scum necessarily have to replace out because they are caught. They can be caught and they can be scum and they can replace out, but that doesn't me that they replaced out because they were caught scum.

We might have. And yes, I do tend to assume that I am obviously in the right a lot of the time even if it's not really obvious and sometimes even if I'm not right. Perhaps all my viewpoints on the matter of subbing out come from the fact that I have a somewhat petty dislike for giving up until having actually tried everything I could.

Again, you're misunderstanding me and your feelings on giving up aren't relevant here, because what I said has nothing to do with giving up.

I'm saying that different people have different ideas of when they are caught. For example, I tend to feel caught as scum when 15%-25% of people suspect me and or when nobody townreads me. So you can't (or at least, shouldn't) apply your definition of caught to them when you don't know when they feel like they are caught.

On top of that, I'm saying that both Titus and Transcend could've considered themselves caught scum, yet still replaced out because they didn't like the attitudes of players in the game. I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just pointing out that there can be differences in communication and perspective that can be barriers to understanding somebody's motivations.

Sorry your posts are very tl;dr-y and I try to read the full posts regardless of whether they address me to gain full understanding of your viewpoints and when it does address me, like just now, I lose sight of what we're actually arguing about. Or in this case talking since, according to you, you're not arguing (which I now only have a vague recollection of - exams are stressful).
If you'd like me to say anything else about this reiterate please and I'll have a look at it again.

As I see it we're bogged down in two slots that are now empty, and I have a strong feeling that scum's pretty content with the game state. I know I'm part to blame, and it's tough playing without a full lineup, and motivation is low after the shitshow, but let's get something going!

This is... actually a really good point, and suggests to me that both Transcend and Titus' subs are town (I believe they were both at L-2 when that was posted)

havingfitz replaces Titus,

This is why.

So we're chaining replace outs now...?

Plus my opinions are usually shit according everyone else.

I actually think you make solid points but what IS shit about you is your attitude.

Oh btw I think we should give Titus's replacement a chance

This regarding all the sub ins, including the one for Transcend, and on that note
UNVOTE:
because honestly even if I was to keep the lynch I don't think it'll happen at this rate

Inb4 TwoFace is giving his scummate a reason to ignore him

Seems pretty unlikely. Though it's not guaranteed, TwoFace is still most likely town based on his role.

I don't know if I said this yet but I don't want to read TwoFace based on him being a doublevoter and I don't think anyone else should do it.

Am I the only one bothered that I'm at the top of that list? Even above TwoFace.

I was about to ask why you were top.

And in case my tone wasn't clear, MMM, I'm looking for an explanation.

2 people have hiraki as their top town read. seriously wtf am I missing about hiraki?

I feel like Hikari is town because his posts show very clearly that he is trying to advance the game and I'm only marginally less certain on this read after seeing him say he shows these attitudes as either alignment.

@MMM...your Mort comments in posts 127 and 131, so close to each other, seem contradictory wrt Mort. (which Mort and Hiraki question afterwards as well)

I already pointed out like 5 posts after the post you linked that Mort isn't one of the two scum reads I mentioned.

]@Mario... why are you null reading TwoFace? What is your read on him disregarding his double vote role?

I'm not obvtowning him for having a role that is uncommon on scum, period. I do town read him but I really want to emphasise it's because of his contributions and not his role.

I think titus left because she didn't like how transcend was playing towards her and was upset that we didn't lynch him for it.

Now that you mention it that seems entirely possible

especially since I overly sympathise with the situation of wanting transcend lynched for being bullshit

His first vote on gamma is something I think he would do as scum, and then after his push on gamma was weak

Not sure if this is that scummy since he has had his vote on since RVS...? Elaborate please.

[MMM]

Been leaning town on Mort but not caring for his multiple excuse posts the last page or two.

Go f**k yourself

Beyond being annoyed by this it's terrible. You're shading a townread for no reason. Do you think my excuse posts are scum indicative? Then why are you townreading me? And if not, why are you shading me?

I'm getting used to playing while working a new job and I'm in 3 games at once. Lay off.

Pedit: I have posted a couple times about work I think? Idk. I can't devote as much time to Mafia as I need to but I'm doing my best.

I don't recall you posting about that actually, but I haven't noticed a huge decline in your activity

because I've been inactive too

so...

[MMM]

Due to my meatworld constraints I'll look at this game again in about 30 hours from now btw

[MMM]

The historical data shows that watcher appeared once in 10+ games with the information I have at my disposal and another role or variant of it pretty much every other time.

Host meta is bad imo.

Sup guys unvote me I claim vanilla townie

lol

Hey guys Ircher is scum let me try to explain this

lol

Titus Evaluation

1. 38 --> Votes Mort cuz she doesn't like his responses -->

I disagree greatly with the assessment. His reads look fine imo and show a town thought process. It seems more like Titus is simpl trying to find something she can attack herself -- how ironic!

2. 171 --> Elaborates on Mort read; mainly states that Mort's stuff lacks depth and asks too many questions -->

Honestly, I still feel like Titus is trying to find things to attack; Titus made the original read about 1 1/2 pages into the game. So, w/ RVS et cetera, there isn't going to be a lot to analyze so questions won't have a lot of depth. While the # of Qs Mort asked was kinda high, I don't necessarily see it as scum-motivated.

3. 177 --> Admits reasoning was bad cuz trying to get things going -->

And this feels like Titus is distancing from her read. Had she said this way earlier, I might buy it, but this seems to be Titus thinking "Oops! I better try to play that read off as non-serious". I don't buy it at all.

4. 178 --> Mort/Yoshi pinged her as partners -->

This early in the game? I mean, 68 kinda pinged me as Titus / MMM being possible partners, but by no means did I see a solid association between the two. Unless Titus elaborates later, this association read feels superficial and an attempt to appear to have reads while simultaneously casting shade at another player.

5. 182 --> Transcend is weak town -->

I would like to note that this happened after Transcend said that town!Titus pretty much always defends him at this point in the game. Titus is obviously trying to keep her options open.

6. 387 --> Asks how Tarkus can see things as her on Mort despite not understanding Titus's posts -->

Different perspective perhaps? Feels like another shade-throwing attempt. Not to mention that Titus hasn't been too specific in her read, so it's pretty difficult to understand when one quotes zero evidence.

7. 408 --> Says town!Trans actually pressures people -->

What suggests he isn't? Also, I honestly don't see the difference between Transcend here and Transcend in 1900. Again, I think this is scum Titus keeping her options open.

So that is my not meta-based case on Titus.

This post is scummy IMO

Hi Transcend...?

I've seen quite a few Town watchers in my games

Oh speaking of host meta...
Ya I say don't obvscum fitz just because of his role either. I find him somewhat scummy upon catching up - I don't really like him TRing people solely for having the same opinions as him without a sign or explanation of how the same opinions also came from the same place - but I really don't want to risk a Watcher flip on day 1 either, so I won't vote him today.

Ircher are u scum buddy

It can be our secret, I won't tell

Ircher vote on me is scummy

I swear to god this guy is literally Transcend's alt.

[MMM]

Also someone asked for a counterwagon to be started
VOTE: Yoshi

[MMM]

VOTE: gamma

Why

I was weighing whether or not Mort was scum - his posting is a bit different than the last game I played with him. He's reads mostly aligned with mine, so I'm going to treat him as town. We both don't see Wheme as scum here, you were the closet counterwagon, and I think you're scum.

Your reads don't align with mine and I think you have a pretty yucky ISO that is full of empty questions.

Here's where I'm at after a scan through.

{Hikari, Twoface, Mortfeld}
{Wheme, MMM, BYF}
{Tarkus, Rayfrost}
{Ircher, Havingfitz, Mariomaniac4}
{Gamma}

Sooooo.....yeah.

How are Wheme and BYF townleans? How are you so sure on Ga--

{Gamma}

post a case on gamma.

I don't do that.

OH FUCK OFF

Not to say that scum can't replace in and pick a player to blindly sheep.

This

[MMM]

My lynch pool is PP, BYF and Whemestar. I'll settle for any of them.

[MMM]

I was transparent with my reads on players upon scanning so that people knew where I stood should Wheme end up lynched. Why, as scum, would I have not just gone along with the Wheme lynch? Huh?

Yep. I'm such a bad player, that I am doing things that call attention to myself instead of moving along with the crowd.

Bad post, not all of scum's posts have to be scum motivated/take the most obvious scum route or this game would be too easy

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

This actually makes me slightly tr Wheme -- I've seen quite a few self-votes but practically all of them have been town w/ the exception of self-hammers.

Bad post, your meta is terribly flawed

GUYS STOP PENGUIN IS TOWN I KNOW IT UNVOTE

?

Explain?

Uh just a gut feeling. I think if you were scum you would of subtly hopped on my wagon

"After a quick Iso of Wheme, it is really trash and blah blah blah... couple reasons. then a vote on me. "

Decent post actually.

1422 was joke post. sorry if you guys take everything seriously

Bad post

lol

[MMM]

Sigh.
If nobody is lynching BYF with me, and nobody else lynches PP, then count my vote on Wheme.

[MMM]

Sigh.
If nobody is lynching BYF with me, and nobody else lynches PP, then count my vote on Wheme.

See, this is the sort of meandering I've been trying to avoid. Pretty much everyody has been saying some combination of PP, Wheme, and Gamma, with an additional name thrown in here or there. Most people aren't even giving reasons why (or it seems they are using reasoning from forever ago).

Everybody, please, list your top 3 lynch candidates. We can start narrowing it down more from there.

I don't like repeating myself.

[MMM]

ok fuck it I want this day to end
VOTE: Whemestar

[MMM]

It's literally at page top but
Top 3: BYF > PP > Wheme
*shrugs*

[MMM]

This gamestate is awful.

I agree -
which is why getting someone lynched already would be great.

I don't know what the reason is but there is a large set {Tarkus, Ircher, GE, MM4} and you might throw me in there not counting the first few pages and maybe MMM, who are implicitly keeping the gamestate where it is by posting yet having very few game-related interactions.

I believe I've stated the situation with my exams already, it's making me much less motivated to post a lot especially when coupled with the entire transcend thing/other non-game related life problems.

[MMM]

I'll place my vote there if it makes the wagon bigger than Wheme's at this point

[MMM]

---snip---
and it's not Ircher's fault that he is a scumlord.
---snip---

He's a scumlord... how and for what, exactly?

---snip---
This town would rather lynch 1559
---snip---

That's not even why I'd be fine with a PP lynch.

---snip---
than 1573, 1454, and 1392 (which ends up with "Oh wait lol we have to lynch PP"
---snip---

Lurker lynch d1 isn't that bad (if it's not someone who clearly needs a replacement). PP lynch isn't tht bad. And I assume when he lynched PP he might have seen enough people willing to lynch him that he could get, in his eyes, a good lynch, as opposed to a compromise lynch. I don't think pushing these lynches, on its own, makes him scummy.

But I feel like Ircher's ISO speaks for itself. His case on Titus didn't read like analysing whether things meant town/scum, just whether things could be considered scummy.
---snip---

This however I do admit is a decent point - I didn't like his Titus case a lot and it's probably the scummiest thing I've seen from him thus far, but in my opinion his other posts outweigh the quality of his Titus case.

I never posted an Ircher case, how can anyone agree with it

This also concerns me - and makes me think there's a decent chance at least one, if not two of the leading wagons (Gamma/Wheme, I assume) are scum, and them/their buddies are shifting onto Ircher, who would be town in this scenario.

I need a

good

case on Ircher to vote him - and the same goes for anyone outside BYF/PP/Wheme/Gamma for that matter.
I'm fine with lynching both main wagons including Gamma right now since both claimed VT, and at weird times too at that, which if I am right hopefully means that we're likely to lynch scum, and even if we do mislynch it won't be drastic since neither is a power role.

[MMM]

Re: MM4

I strongly prefer Wheme over Yoshi and Gamma. I also strongly prefer Fitz over Wheme.

Actually, I'm fine w/ either Penguin or Wheme.
VOTE: Penguin

It's called compromise.

Also, when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching. Boring games contribute to those not-so-strong reads.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

This actually makes me slightly tr Wheme -- I've seen quite a few self-votes but practically all of them have been town w/ the exception of self-hammers.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

Oh I love when scum give up. Thanks.

No problem bud, how much will you yell at me when I flip town tho

If I flip town*

This also reads as town based on my experience w/ this stuff.

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

(Or we can policy-lynch RayFrost on the basis of Lynch-all-Lurkers)

My lynch pool current is {Penguin, Tarkus, Rayfrost} for PoE related reasons.

I see progression, and I don't think his changes of mind come and go willy-nilly. It's also 5 and not 4 pages - in case it's of any relevance to your argument. Sorry but I just can't see scum!Ircher choosing these lynches the way he did if it's all you have on him.

[MMM]

it only took one townread for him to go from, "when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching." to basically declaring he cannot see pp as town whatsoever?

I think I'm missing something and don't have the right picture here. Quote the posts that are relevant to this please.

[MMM]

Cause you haven't posted anything in a while. PP is getting pressure and you post what looks like an avoidance post.

P.edit - I definitely retract my thoughts on you TB

Modkill!!!!

I was backreading and found this, is it an actual modkill...?

[MMM]

That his read on PP is worse than a slight townread? Also, perhaps it was also to encourage people off Wheme's lynchbait wagon.

that doesn't indicate a slight townread though
it indicates that wheme was just about not confirmed scum- "i can see it coming from town, ever so slightly."

My interpretation is "Yes Wheme is scummy, but I can see town do what he did - PP is also scummy, but I can't see town doing what he is doing"

[MMM]

I see progression, and I don't think his changes of mind come and go willy-nilly

I get that you're responding to MM4, but what is the progression?

Spoiler: Mortfeld

I strongly prefer Wheme over Yoshi and Gamma. I also strongly prefer Fitz over Wheme.

Starting point: Fitz and Wheme as a lynchpool. Seemed reasonable at the time, seems reasonable still.

Actually, I'm fine w/ either Penguin or Wheme.
VOTE: Penguin

Switches to also being okay with a PP lynch. He asked for a case a minute earlier so it's somewhat rash but I can understand that shift to some extent since I also scumread PP at that time.

It's called compromise.

Also, when my reads aren't very strong, I am generally okay w/ lynching anyone who isn't someone I'm against lynching. Boring games contribute to those not-so-strong reads.

I can identify with the game being a bit boring/frustrating, and at the time PP's wagon was bigger (which is to say more people were on, they had the same votes if we exclude Ircher), hence I can see how it would be a compromise.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

This actually makes me slightly tr Wheme -- I've seen quite a few self-votes but practically all of them have been town w/ the exception of self-hammers.

I don't like the townlean on Wheme for this, but it's one nevertheless.

VOTE: Me

Alright twoface let's do this

Oh I love when scum give up. Thanks.

No problem bud, how much will you yell at me when I flip town tho

If I flip town*

This also reads as town based on my experience w/ this stuff.

Bla bla this town read is still bad but I can still somewhat see where it's coming from so it's really not as bad as MM4 is making it out to be in my opinion.

We are lynching PP because despite how bad Wheme is, I can see both his and Transcend's play as coming from town, ever so slightly.

Reiterates his point. Pure frustration honestly. That said if he ever flips scum (which I'm still not very convinced if he will) I'll never move my vote off Wheme until he gets lynched.

(Or we can policy-lynch RayFrost on the basis of Lynch-all-Lurkers)

My lynch pool current is {Penguin, Tarkus, Rayfrost} for PoE related reasons.

The lurker lynch idea isn't the greatest ever but it's not the worst one if we don't have anything better. PP + 2 lurkers seems like a logical lynch pool from his pov given that he reads Wheme as town.

[MMM]

I like that I still don't get it.
Wait, no, I don't like it at all, what am I saying.
No but literally I'm staring at this for half an hour and I just don't get it.

[MMM]

It happens to me outside mafia
you get used to it

It does happen to me a lot outside of mafia
and I just want to die because not understanding shit is a giant frustrating roadblock

I like that I still don't get it.
Wait, no, I don't like it at all, what am I saying.
No but literally I'm staring at this for half an hour and I just don't get it.

I'm pretty sure not even being able to see town doing what someone is doing means you have a hard scumread on that person?
Or are you talking about something else?

just
start your entire explanation from square one
and pray that I'll understand this time

[MMM]

I got to the bit where he heavily scum reads him.
What's so bad about it?

[MMM]

I got to the bit where he heavily scum reads him.
What's so bad about it?

two pages ago he was incredibly uncertain
now he not only has a strong scumread on PenguinPower, but he has also expressed a rather heavy scumread on WhemeStar, when his opinion of Wheme only improved

so its like
page x:
i am uncertain about my reads here

*wheme gets townier*
page y (y=x+2):
wheme is almost certainly scum
PP is certainly scum

it makes no sense and it feels like he's jumping around here, trying to get on wagons with growing momentum- there's no continuity behind his reads

HOLY SHIT I FINALLY GET WHAT YOU MEAN THANK YOU LITERALLY SO MUCH

[MMM]

Leaning scum on Ircher after this.
MM4 seems like town.
That said my preferred wagon is still Wheme because I liked Ircher's early content and I think he's more likely to redeem himself, Wheme is just an easier lynch to actually achieve (throwback to Kelvin's original suggestion of lynching Gamma/Wheme), and Wheme is just going to be useless even if kept alive, on top of having claimed VT already, and for no reason.
Yes, it might be possible that I'm tunnelling off my last reads a bit because this day's been strenuous but I'll try keeping an open mind. Ircher, PP and fitz are probably my top lynches for day 2 though. Might lump in Gamma too, but he is gradually seeming less scummy.

@Ircher:

What is your read on PP and how did it develop?

[MMM]

VOTE: RayFrost

And with this post I have lost all understanding of the game I have gained since my last reads list.

[MMM]

I'm here, currently working on getting my post completely together. Finding posts I want to highlight and such, etc, etc.

I'm going to put it here that I absolutely abhor the overuse of meta and

anyone

who attempts to ignore me by handwaving what I have to say and saying "but it's that person's

meta

" will incur my wrath.

Someone having a meta of playing scummy is not an excuse to ignore scummy things they do. Do not positively reinforce bad play.

Mind you none of you have done that yet, but I want that out there now before I have to deal with "but I know this person and that's just what they do." I'm not having it.

I like you.

[MMM]

I never said I town read him

[MMM]

None bc how the fuck am I supposed to have a read on him with -69 posts worth of actual content

[MMM]

Oh wait this dude replaced Grey
Grey was ok but I always TR him anyways
So eh
Still null

[MMM]

Ray's GE case might be legit.

[MMM]

Ray's GE case might be legit.

Do you agree tho

I'm inclined to agree since I do feel like I've noticed what he pointed out before but I don't think you're likely enough to flip scum solely over that to vote you over wheme

yo guys
I wanted my RF vote to get content, since really it's mostly an empty slot and shouldn't have had too much resistance- so I could look for people who were reacting awkwardly
but RF decided to do things so it didn't work out
UNVOTE:

Bad vote imo - deadline is looming and as much as I support pressuring your null/scum reads we need to vote to LYNCH right now, and Ray is not an option for that when there are a handful better lynches available.

[MMM]

actually in hindsight deadline's not that close so that's my bad
still want this day to end already though

[MMM]

So
Twoface - voting me because I scum claimed, he isn't going to unvote me.
PenguinPower - his vote on me was to save his own ass
MMM - Scumreads me? I'm not sure
Kelvin - wants the day to end and doesn't care who gets lynched?

Is that right

You are correct in that I read you as scum, and even if you're town you're likely to be the most useless around as things stand.

[MMM]

So

You SR me, but say even if I am town it doesn't matter if I die?

It would obviously be better if you're scum, but if hypothetically I had to decide between you or any other player knowing both are town I'd lynch you.

[MMM]

Obviously from your perspective it's bad but do you at least understand my motivation?

[MMM]

I understand wanting to push your scumreads, but if you want to revive the game the best course of action would be to compromise on Whemestar. We have 1 day left and I don't think people are going to jump on Ircher, and I think you'd agree that even a town lynch is better than no lynch at all.

[MMM]

I am

against

lynching ircher at this time.

[MMM]

Ircher has been just switching his vote to follow the biggest wagon all game long and doesnt give good reasons for voting them either.

I don't recall this being the case - from what I remember he did join 2-3 wagons, but he was also the one to create the Titus wagon.

[MMM]

RIP XnadrojX.

And RIP MortFeld too.

I'm gonna go check his ISO.

[MMM]

What
I feel Ircher might be victim of a frame kill but I'm not going to jump to conclusions

There were a lot of people who were pushing Ircher and whose deaths would potentially have framed him. Regardless that's not how I wanna approach this because that's just pointless heavy WIFOM.
I want to look for weaker pushes from him that felt like they might have gained traction if he was still alive - I believe that's where I'm most likely to find scum with NKA based methods.

[MMM]

Ah, and welcome Priscila.

[MMM]

GE is scum.

I think Gamma is actual scum.

I'll Lynch ge

Weak pushes against GE. He then had a strong push on GE. Then another weak push towards the end of the day. So this could be a possibility.

Mario maybe scum but I do agree with 696

I think I forgot to quote a lot of posts I wanted to quote but he has occasionally weakly pushed MM4 as well.

3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)

I disagree with tht greatly -- lurkers ar good lynches if there are no better alternatives in my opinin.

You're Mafia??

Btw Ircher I saw your post I'll talk to you later

Note that he never got to talk to Ircher just as well. Though, at the same time, I think scum would be motivated to cut this conversation short regardless of Ircher's alignment, and it could be a frame... so Ircher could be scum, but if I decide he is, I don't wanna base it off of MortFeld being killed at night.

Been leaning town on Mort but not caring for his multiple excuse posts the last page or two.

Go f**k yourself

Probably not the best post to quote for this but it gets the point across lol

I'd vote PP.

This is a thing too.

Hey, Mort. Will you sum up your reads for me?

Titus havingfitz - likely scum
Ircher - nullscumish
Transcend WhemeStar - town
TwoFace - town
MarioManiac4 - idk, nullscumish
BigYoshiFan - town
Gamma Emerald - scum
Tarkus - maybe town but I want them to DO more
NotTheRealPaul -Grey- RayFrost - grey was very effortful but said some things I didn't like
ChannelDelibird PenguinPower - null
MMM - town
Hikari Link - town

Gamma seems to be egging on the titus/fitz lynch on the basis of having a tell that works if the slot flips scum, but his only reason for thinking it's scum is that Titus changed her transcend read. Like, I think the reason for the scumread is weak, and wanting a lynch to verify a tell that only works if the slot is scum is awfully convenient for scum trying to push this lynch.

He hasn't been exploring other options for a while now and I think tunneling on titus to this extent for the reasons he has given is scummy.

Plus after looking back on the earlier stuff I see what you're saying Mort. Makes more sense to me than most cases at this point.

Is this still the extent of your Gamma read, Tarkus?

This gamestate is awful. I'm not just complaining, I think it's this way for a reason and that reason is not just TF/Titus/Transcend/Fitz fighting. I don't know what the reason is but there is a large set {Tarkus, Ircher, GE, MM4} and you might throw me in there not counting the first few pages and maybe MMM, who are implicitly keeping the gamestate where it is by posting yet having very few game-related interactions. This is scummy and I think there is absolutely scum in this set.

Hikari Link/Kelvin is not scum. I do not like that people are shading them for trying to move the gamestate along. People who have done this are Wheme and Yoshi. Maybe Yoshi should be in the above set too.

I am very hesitant on PP. I think I am always suspicious of PP. PP replaced into a shitshow so I don't blame him for sheeping my reads. How he determined I am worth sheeping? I don't know. This is the main reason I was willing to vote him. But by my hidden metric (which I am working on game by game and which I can't reveal because it can be manipulated) he feels town. Again this is a metric for myself and myself alone and it's not the end all be all of how I read people but it has been very useful in the couple of games I've used it.

Wheme is Wheme. He's probably town.

I will vote anyone in that set above with the exception of Yoshi, MMM, and obviously myself. I don't think I want to vote anyone outside that set other than Fitz.

And finally his read lists.

What I think we gain from this is, based on scum killing him for read accuracy:
- Gamma, Mario, PP, Fitz, Tarkus and Ircher are good places to look for scum
- Yoshi, Kelvin and me (I mean, duh) are town [this does not line up with my previous read on Yoshi - I'll need to re-evaluate him]

[MMM]

This is semi rushed since I'm going to foods but I'll elaborate on whatever you guys want

[MMM]

Last thing before I go...

So probably voting fitz today. Especially if cop decides to cc the watcher claim.

How does the existence of a Cop prove that there's no Watcher? Do you by any chance mean you're expecting a Cop to have a result on the Watcher...? Because otherwise I'd see no reason for there to be both a Cop and a Watcher in the same setup. (Though, then again, I'm used to making crazier setups, so might be biased)

[MMM]

can it really just be as simple as MMM and ircher

Yes of course it's that simple, why bother letting people explain shit when you already know scum with as much confidence as a cop with an inspect on everyone?

[MMM]

No miller 2shot watcher claim
I am disappoint

MMM vote was largely on him going way too far into the nightkill for town

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... 2-PM-2-2-9 Have a read through day 1 and tell me NKA is a bad idea.

[MMM]

1. I think that the way that Titus replaced out was very sudden and strange and probably there was some infighting in the scum team
2. from this I expect that she was being bussed and was unhappy about that. I am looking at Ircher for the prime suspect here.

1. It was day 1 and the scum team had no chance to communicate together yet. How could there have been infighting?
2. Just to get it straight - you believe the real reason she subbed out was that she was being bussed and not that she didn't like Transcend?

I am genuinely confused as to how I can come out with my first content as a tier list and a vote and people call that opportunistic?

Working on an exam right now, so I can't go over what you said, but your reads are basically the safest reads possible, with the exception of PP. Gamma is one of the most scumread people in the game right now and your other three in the next tier have generally seen similar levels of heat as each other. So you've basically got a read list that allows you to pivot to any of the prime lynch candidates, at least half of which mathematically must be mislynches. If intentional, it's pretty much textbook opportunism. It also means that if you're scum, I'd probably be expecting PenguinPower as your partner.

Why would PP be her partner?

[MMM]

I'm going to reread and try to sort Yoshi within the next 3-4 days when I stop having to worry about life btw, if I don't do it, someone remind me that I wanted to do this

[MMM]

I find it odd that everyone Ircher posted a read on so far is a varying shade of neutral to him.
I do agree with Kelvin that the PP read isn't that bad though. His vote on Ircher feels like OMGUS, but I don't think it's alignment indicative especially since I do it a lot myself.
I'm out for the time being. Remind me to sort Yoshi.

@Mods: V/LA until Thursday/Friday

[MMM]

Fuck that's a lot of pages
Catching up
Self-reminder to sort Yoshi

[MMM]

Ok, is really no one seeing what I see in Mortfield?

I don't know about you but I see town.

This interaction between Titus and MMM feels vaguely like they are buddies. He doesn't seem particularly interested in sorting Titus and is somewhat talking to someone as if they have an understanding,

then he doesn't follow up on her response

. I get the feeling he is not interested in finding her motives nor in convincing her of his position.

Examples of these random potshots? Cause I see nothing like that.

His entire ISO looks like that to me. :/ I don't see follow through or analysis. Just a random question out in left field I cannot find out why he's asking.

It's fair enough to say he did that around page 2, where it was deliberate but if you have any concrete examples (other than "his entire ISO") that would be appreciated.

[MMM]

MMM - maybe take an honest look at how much of 388 is scum indicative, and how much is a playstyle issue?

No I'm at the point where I don't fucking care anymore I'm not here to be dubbed a fucking idiot by some random shit on the internet. He can be a fucking infinite-shot Bulletproof Day-Bloodhound for all everyone fucking cares. I don't give a fucking shit. He's dead to me.

I have no idea where this rage has come from. It's so sudden and over the top that I have a hard time fully believing that it is real.

You haven't yet played with me especially in circumstances where I display said over-the-top rage against people for whatever reason is applicable at the time.

[MMM]

can it really just be as simple as MMM and ircher

Yes of course it's that simple, why bother letting people explain shit when you already know scum with as much confidence as a cop with an inspect on everyone?

that isn't what i said and you know it

Yeah what you said was more along the lines of "hey let's chain 1 or 2 mislynches without bothering to do anything else"

[MMM]

like
"- Gamma, Mario, PP, Fitz, Tarkus and Ircher are good places to look for scum" that is not a conclusion
"- Yoshi, Kelvin and me (I mean, duh) are town" that just is not good at all

1. Of course it's not a conclusion. That was supposed to be a starting point and nothing else.
2. Don't be a Transcend. Elaborate. (if you do this later then nvm)

[MMM]

No miller 2shot watcher claim
I am disappoint

MMM vote was largely on him going way too far into the nightkill for town

http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... 2-PM-2-2-9 Have a read through day 1 and tell me NKA is a bad idea.

???
i uh read through d1
and
nothing was there?

Day 1 I had an uncertain flip-flopping scum read on gbs, whose partner then decided to nightkill me - he ended up not being lynched though he was nightkilled by the other scum team.

[MMM]

It also really confuses me that MMM went into so much depth over a MortFeld kill, but completely ignores killing a doublevoter over a cop.
...
Am I the only one here?

I believe touching on roles with NKA would be an anti-town thing to do so I'd simply rather not in this case.

[MMM]

Then he doesn't follow it up. He doesn't care for the answer. Next he just goes and votes Transcend, after all that posture, because BYF expressed a townread:

Yoshi's post about Transcend convinced me.

VOTE: Transcend

This and the rest of her Grey case make me want to re-evaluate Ray afterwards too.

[MMM]

I don't understand why people insist on immediately lynching guilties. It is entirely protown to continue to use the day up with a confirmed scum.

I agree with this so much

[MMM]

I'd like to start by going ahead with this:

Vote: BigYoshiFan

I'd like to state that I currently have a

townread

on Gamma. And I never really had a scumread on him. His reaction to my accusations on day 1 was quite towny (which brought him from null to town), and the reactions of other players around those accusations were more suspect. My main motivation for pushing him was that I had felt it was highly unlikely a wagon would actually shift to him (I didn't want more claims, really) and it was highly likely people would be willing to discuss it (other pushes felt less likely to get any substance from the others). Sorry to Gamma. You were a good choice for this. Nothing personal.

Now, the reactions of two players in particular bothered me: Ircher and BigYoshiFan. I'm fine with voting either one this game phase. I'd need to go back through to link to specific posts for BigYoshiFan, but here's the basic breakdown for both reads:

BigYoshiFan - his ~scumread~ on titus and his reactions around her were very much of the omgus variety in that it could be boiled down to "titus' reasoning for suspecting me is bad so titus is suspect" - his suspicion of titus is artificial at best and is a reaction, not individually spawned. This can be seen by his reaction to people townreading the titus slot as well.

A lot of BigYoshiFan's sources of suspicion can be summed up with "what this person did didn't feel genuine" - there's no way to really poke at this reasoning. And it's not wrong in and of itself. But when it's the reason for most of your reads, it becomes an excuse rather than a reason. He also puts mild efforts to express a townread of Ircher in reaction to people suspecting him. Mind you, associative tells before a flip aren't the best to go off of, but it's a point for why ircher's number two.

Additionally, his reaction to my case against Gamma was "I promise more later, but it's intriguing" with nothing given later. Intriguing and interesting are two words with very similar uses: you say them and it can mean anything you want. Also note BigYoshiFan never shows any suspicion of Gamma prior to or after that post.

Ircher - Associative tells with BigYoshiFan are the main reason, to be honest. If you look through their interactions and the flow of their reads, there's a lot of them matching up in reads / supporting each other's cases and not a lot of actual direct interaction between them. It's indirect. Agreement, with little conflict of reads (or apparently not enough to converse with each other about their differences for some reason).

The stuff from today that has been mentioned could be included as well, but that's been covered.

Faking a scum read in the way he did it seems like a really townie thing to do to me, and the Ircher/Yoshi cases seem agreeable.

I'd also like to make a premature claim because I can. I'm a

two shot gunsmith

, and I've used both shots on players that I couldn't get a good read on. One is MarioManiac4, the other is Penguin Power.

Neither of them have guns

. I'm making this claim now because the playerlist is small enough that having these results (especially since I can't get any more) out is beneficial given we don't know how many members of the scumteam there are. If you are a role with limited shots that is investigative and you've used them, I would suggest claiming now.

And then this, in the same post, makes me doubt the townlean again, since the mafia roleblocker said he visited Ray, who shouldn't have gotten one of his results if that is the case, though at the same time fitz could also have been lying about it...

[MMM]

I'd like to start by going ahead with this:

Vote: BigYoshiFan

I'd like to state that I currently have a

townread

on Gamma. And I never really had a scumread on him. His reaction to my accusations on day 1 was quite towny (which brought him from null to town), and the reactions of other players around those accusations were more suspect. My main motivation for pushing him was that I had felt it was highly unlikely a wagon would actually shift to him (I didn't want more claims, really) and it was highly likely people would be willing to discuss it (other pushes felt less likely to get any substance from the others). Sorry to Gamma. You were a good choice for this. Nothing personal.

Now, the reactions of two players in particular bothered me: Ircher and BigYoshiFan. I'm fine with voting either one this game phase. I'd need to go back through to link to specific posts for BigYoshiFan, but here's the basic breakdown for both reads:

BigYoshiFan - his ~scumread~ on titus and his reactions around her were very much of the omgus variety in that it could be boiled down to "titus' reasoning for suspecting me is bad so titus is suspect" - his suspicion of titus is artificial at best and is a reaction, not individually spawned. This can be seen by his reaction to people townreading the titus slot as well.

A lot of BigYoshiFan's sources of suspicion can be summed up with "what this person did didn't feel genuine" - there's no way to really poke at this reasoning. And it's not wrong in and of itself. But when it's the reason for most of your reads, it becomes an excuse rather than a reason. He also puts mild efforts to express a townread of Ircher in reaction to people suspecting him. Mind you, associative tells before a flip aren't the best to go off of, but it's a point for why ircher's number two.

Additionally, his reaction to my case against Gamma was "I promise more later, but it's intriguing" with nothing given later. Intriguing and interesting are two words with very similar uses: you say them and it can mean anything you want. Also note BigYoshiFan never shows any suspicion of Gamma prior to or after that post.

Ircher - Associative tells with BigYoshiFan are the main reason, to be honest. If you look through their interactions and the flow of their reads, there's a lot of them matching up in reads / supporting each other's cases and not a lot of actual direct interaction between them. It's indirect. Agreement, with little conflict of reads (or apparently not enough to converse with each other about their differences for some reason).

The stuff from today that has been mentioned could be included as well, but that's been covered.

I'd also like to make a premature claim because I can. I'm a

two shot gunsmith

, and I've used both shots on players that I couldn't get a good read on. One is MarioManiac4, the other is Penguin Power. Neither of them have guns. I'm making this claim now because the playerlist is small enough that having these results (especially since I can't get any more) out is beneficial given we don't know how many members of the scumteam there are. If you are a role with limited shots that is investigative and you've used them, I would suggest claiming now.

Okay, so I'm considering those two (MM4 and PP) soft cleared for now
I forgot who the cop was :'(, can someone refresh me

Last game I played with a gunsmith we had a Mafia Doc so while it's likely they're town, it's not certain, and as such I would still consider lynching them even on a Ray townflip.

[MMM]

Now it's time to chill. If we wanna talk stupid, I thought the --> lists were for lynches and not claims.

They are. I am waiting for MMM to claim, then I will claim.

Shittiest role in the existence of mafia.
Translation for people who don't play with me: VT

[MMM]

Warning: This post will be Setup Speculation™ because I'm bad at scumhunting.
uhhh ok so I could see this;
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Town Miller Doublevoter
Town 2-Shot Gunsmith
Town Odd-Night Cop
Town Even-Night Doctor
scum
scum
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

Setup seems accurate except for JK > Doc and the glaring fact that almost everyone claimed anyway.

Gamma could well be scum (just from gut,

I did say I was a bad mafia player- heed my warnings

) and also

opportunism is optimal as town

so that's where I'm voting today

1. Is that supposed to translate to "don't lynch me after I mislynch Gamma/MMM"?
2. What how why where when?

[MMM]

MM4 if I remember correctly you read Grey's catchup as quite villagery. And you have me as null? This is completely absurd.

Need to sort MM4 too, the posts he made in my absence are slowly making him climb my scum ratings...

[MMM]

And guys I declared my V/LA. Like. Come on.

[MMM]

VOTE: Priscilla

I don't like anything about your play this game.

She's not Transcend.
She also seems quite townie to me.

[MMM]

It is in fact autowin, presuming the mod did not troll us with a mafia doctor - I find this highly highly unlikely.

Not all that unlikely as I've already said.

[MMM]

Fuck when did I post my last read list

[MMM]

People I need to re-evaluate: Yoshi, Ray, Mario
Doing that either tonight or tomorrow

[MMM]

obvtown
{Hikari Link}
{Ircher,

-Grey-

, TwoFace, MortFeld}
{

Tarkus, Titus, ChannelDelibird

}
{BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald, MarioManiac4}
{

Transcend

}
obvscum

I'm actually surprised it was that long ago I thought I posted those more often... I blame people for turboing d2 and exams for not letting me do anything d3.
I'll post one of these after I re-evaluate those 3 as well.

[MMM]

Whoops. Prodding MMM

Unprodded, missed his V/LA announcement.

Took you long enough smh

[MMM]

Also, I strongly believe that a mafia doctor would make this setup unbalanced. Therefore, I think both the gunless results are cleared innocent.

If there's no Mafia Doc and no Vig, what's the point in not making the gunsmith a straight cop?

[MMM]

Also, I strongly believe that a mafia doctor would make this setup unbalanced. Therefore, I think both the gunless results are cleared innocent.

If there's no Mafia Doc and no Vig, what's the point in not making the gunsmith a straight cop?

Actually, I can answer my own question - I realised earlier that Gunsmith would get guilty on the Cop and JK. However, assuming that Ray's claim is true, I still think that Mafia Doctor would make sense since I feel like we would have way too much power otherwise considering we have two inspecting roles and a Jailkeeper on top of that.
Obviously that is false if your speculation that scum has a Rolecop is accurate - a Mafia Doctor on top of that would become too scumsided. However, how sure are you that there is a Mafia Rolecop? I feel like Roleblocker should do the job on its own there and Godfather/Doctor would make more sense here, in particular Doctor so that there are two roles messing with the Gunsmith's investigations - one giving a false negative, and one giving a false positive.
I'll have a look at the games you linked whenever I get round to posting things about Mario/Yoshi/Ray btw.

Pedit: Yoshi sniped me to part of this post

[MMM]

Town Odd-Night Cop
Town Even-Night Jailkeeper
Town Miller Double Voter
Vanilla Townie - 7
Mafia 2-shot Roleblocker
Mafia Goon - 2

How does that look?

This looks plausible to me.

However, how sure are you that there is a Mafia Rolecop?

If you have another explanation for why the cop was not killed last night, I would like to hear it. Kelvin makes sense as a cop shot as well because of the interaction he had around the middle of day 1 where he gave some mixed signals of power.

Yoshi sniped me to this too I think but Mafia probably expected a protective role to be on Kelvin, and it seems that they were correct in assuming that.

can it really just be as simple as MMM and ircher

Yes of course it's that simple, why bother letting people explain shit when you already know scum with as much confidence as a cop with an inspect on everyone?

that isn't what i said and you know it

Yeah what you said was more along the lines of "hey let's chain 1 or 2 mislynches without bothering to do anything else"

ok
so what i meant by that was, "can it really just be as simple as my top two scumreads"
as in, i didn't think my top two scumreads could be correct
and i was right because ircher is basically confirmed town

I actually did think that was what you meant. Upon rereading the post I now realise that you did mean it in a different way than I had thought, so my bad there I guess.

like
"- Gamma, Mario, PP, Fitz, Tarkus and Ircher are good places to look for scum" that is not a conclusion
"- Yoshi, Kelvin and me (I mean, duh) are town" that just is not good at all

1. Of course it's not a conclusion. That was supposed to be a starting point and nothing else.
2. Don't be a Transcend. Elaborate. (if you do this later then nvm)

1. it's literally just throwing out a pool of MORE THAN HALF OF THE ALIVE PLAYERS to "look for scum" in- like, i'm not sure i'm comfortable with you making that the "starting point"
2. You're going into the nightkill and calling yourself town because of it how is that not gross

1. Again, it was gonna be a starting point for me to start sorting people had day not ended prematurely. Given that 1 of the people in that pool flipped scum, and 4/5 people in that pool are good lynch candidates atm, I think that is still a really good pool as well. (I'm not treating the GS inspects as locktown unless Ray actually flips since I'm sceptical of the claim for reasons I have outlined and even if he flips GS, Mafia Doctor is still a possibility meaning that one, but not two of his innos could be scum)
2. I'd want to call myself town as either alignment. Do think about it though - if he didn't have accurate reads, why would he be killed over Kelvin at the time? On Night 1, there would unlikely be any drawback to killing him, and basically everyone thought he was town, whereas 1-2 people expressed concerns over Mort (if I remember correctly, I might be wrong), and on top of that Kelvin was a PR and Mort wasn't, though I don't know how much scum knew about their roles at the time.

Typically, gunsmith would not result in a "has a gun" for jailkeeper as far as I know.

Mod: By your definition of role interactions, if a gunsmith were to inspect a hypothetical jailkeeper, would it result in a result of having a gun or would it result in not having a gun?

As this is a purely hypothetical scenario that can't happen anyway given my two shots being up,

"In Normal games on mafiascum.net, a Gunsmith gets guilties on all Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Backups of roles with guns and JoATs that have any of these listed powers."
As this is a Normal game, you would not get a Gun result on a Jailkeeper- if this was the case your role would be greylisted and you would have been notified of this in your PM. However, you would have got a Gun result on Kelvin Smith (as he is a Cop.)

Weird, I remember Gunsmith getting a gun result on JK. If that is the case though it makes a bit more sense if it was included, as 2 town roles giving a false positive would be just a bit too much.

However, how sure are you that there is a Mafia Rolecop?

If you have another explanation for why the cop was not killed last night, I would like to hear it. Kelvin makes sense as a cop shot as well because of the interaction he had around the middle of day 1 where he gave some mixed signals of power.

They were scared of Town Protective? Rightly so if Ircher is JK like he claims.

Post where Yoshi snipes me yet again yay

If I was scum I would have come in and pushed a strong case against you or someone else, not thoroughly revise my reads and start a massclaim to break the scumteam and bring town into lock win. I would have certainly argued for a mafia doctor and would never have done nka to argue for a role cop to break the setup. If I am scum I have played heavily against my wincon

Making people town read you isn't playing against your wincon

[MMM]

Yeah so "pass" goes to "very likely town" then
So, um, I guess it has to be MMM/BYF for me lol

Well I guess it HAS to be those for you, huh?

It doesn't even

have

to be if
a) Mafia Doc exists
b) GS claim is fake
c) Priscilla is scum that's being obvtowned
To me, that post shows no desire to actually sort people and solve the game...

[MMM]

What's wrong with following the auto win plan? I don't really have scum

reads

but there's a scum pool and I'm going to vote in it obviously.

It isn't an auto win plan if we only have 2 confirmed town.
Ray may have "innocents", but he isn't confirmed town either. If he's town and we don't lynch him, there is no Mafia Doc, AND scum are indeed among the VT claims, then yes, great, we win! But if he's scum and we don't lynch him, then our auto win plan is an auto lose plan. Same thing if one of PP or MM4 is actually a Mafia Doctor.
Why else do you think I still want to actually sort people?

[MMM]

Ok fuck sorting BYF/Ray/MM4 only, I'm gonna have to reread the entire game at this point, I'm doubting literally all of my reads right now.

[MMM]

Yoshi sniped me to this too I think but Mafia probably expected a protective role to be on Kelvin, and it seems that they were correct in assuming that.

If that was true they would have tried to kill the protective role, not the double voter.

They would hunt for it. If they did not know that Kelvin was gated and feared protection, their utmost priority would be to kill that protection so they could kill the cop. It makes no sense at all to kill a known non-protective when there is a cop that can be getting results.

I am doubting my Gamma read also.

i'm thinking the chances of guessing the protective are so low that they would just shoot the doublevoter

This would have been my guess as well - if the chances of guessing the protective are low, you might as well kill a widely town read player.

Also apologies for delaying my thread reread and generally being less invested in this - I got FE Echoes recently and I've been spending most of my time on that. Hopefully I'll start the thread reread tonight, and if not, then I'll start tomorrow at around this time without fail.

[MMM]

And I don't know about Gamma right now. He would have very little to gain as scum from portraying me and Yoshi as confirmed scum, but at the same time the lack of effort on his side is real. At the moment I'm still leaning towards scum (mostly due to having a scumread on him through most of the game) but I might change my mind after the reread.

[MMM]

Also apologies for delaying my thread reread and generally being less invested in this - I got FE Echoes recently and I've been spending most of my time on that. Hopefully I'll start the thread reread tonight, and if not, then I'll start tomorrow at around this time without fail.

[MMM]

Before I forget, I have one question

@Gamma:

Currently, you are treating me and Yoshi as confscum. Let's hypothetically (for now) say that one of the two of us is lynched and flips town. Will you then treat the other and Priscila as confscum?

[MMM]

Starting reread now.
I'm not gonna comment on a lot of things and mostly just sort things for myself though, since sadly I don't really have the time for making a giant post on top of a reread of all 2.4k posts ;_;

[MMM]

I recall at some point reading that Gamma was supposed to be apathetic town or something like that. I don't see many of his early posts (up to page 5) as being that.

[MMM]

Also, BYF and Gamma ping me as not!scumbuddies so far.

[MMM]

I don't think being worried about being incriminated by scum it inherently scummy, however page 2 is just way too early for that. "Coincidentally", Titus pointed out 7 posts earlier that Mort was also just looking for things to attack... I just wonder whether actually got two scum right there or it's actually too good to be true.

The two scum being me and Yoshi? That doesn't make sense. Actually this whole post doesn't make sense. What is the relevance of Titus' (correct) observation that I was just looking for things to attack?

The two scum that I saw would be Yoshi and Titus. I don't think it was wrong for Mort to attack Yoshi when and how he did given that at that phase in the game you do have to do something to cause game progression, Titus seemed really quick to chainsaw and BYF picked up on Titus' defense quickly.

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

Yes Gamma some of your posts do show that, but at least so far there are very few of them - I'm still looking out for posts showing that as I reread.

[MMM]

VOTE: Hikari Link

I'm not letting Yoshi off the hook there, because I still feel like his response to the speedwagon was more likely to come from scum than town. I just think a Gamma scum flip strengthens my case against Yoshi.

The level of confidence required to make this post honestly cannot yet have been obtained by town.

---

Hey, people. I've not played with most of you before. FYI, my username is typically abbreviated to CDB.

and the 'delivered' point is interesting, I will ruminate on it.

Then there is this which
1. puts Yoshi and Gamma as scumbuddies, as opposed to my not!scumbuddies read, and
2. who replaced this guy again, was it Ray? I think it was Ray. For what little it matters since he only had one post, but it seems more likely to come from town to me.

[MMM]

At school, hiiiiiii!
Townreads: Gamma Emerald, Hikari Link
Scumreads: Transcend, TwoFace

@Yoshi:

Why was Gamma town for you at that point, again?

[MMM]

This is why I scum read both of you at the time.

O_O
Do you really want to quickly change me? I'll have you know the last town to do so lost horribly.

ate, moderately scummy

I would unvote and I would expect enough people to unvote to where he's not in danger of being quick-lynched.

So you are comfortable enough with him being at L-2 to put him there, but so uncomfortable with him being at L-1 that you'd want potentially multiple people to unvote were he at L-1.

That is odd.

Yoshi looking for towncred in the weird case that Gamma actually had flipped... moderately scummy.

BYF and Mort are town

Too quick, but getting reads out is undestandable. Slightly scummy.

I'm thinking all three of us are town.
UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: TwoFace

Proceeds to literally parrot the same thing...? Moderately scummy.

I'm thinking all three of us are town.
UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: TwoFace

You arrived there quickly

and why tf?

VOTE: MortFeld

Not liking his responses here. It looks like he's just looking for things to attack.

Chainsawing BYF/GE. Doesn't make them look townier after the Titus slot flip by any means, and 1-2 scum is very likely to be in BYF/GE.

Yoshi 45 town

GE 50 call it out for being scum indicative, or just call it out for being wrong?

Titus 68 icky pingy question mark

Mario 69 townish maybe?

GE 70 just OMGUS or?

GE 79 bad post

GE 82 why do you think he's faking?

Transcend 8789 Transcend what the f?

GE 95 coaching Transcend, discrediting Transcend's push, not giving own opinion on Hikari. not good

Transcend 96 what does wk mean

Transcend 97 Barleycorn is dead from shame. unless I want to play a shitposty game then he will ruin another game for town.

Transcend 99 agreeish

GE is better vote.

GE 107 why are you gladiating me and Yoshi?

45 wasn't that townie, and the points on GE overall resonated with what I had thought at the time.

[MMM]

LOL how does that tie me and yoshi together

I'm not letting Yoshi off the hook there, because I still feel like his response to the speedwagon was more likely to come from scum than town.

I just think a Gamma scum flip strengthens my case against Yoshi.

Semi-quoted the wrong post but that's the bit I was referring to

[MMM]

GE's reaction to the doublevoter is something that could definitely come from apathetic town

[MMM]

Family halted my reread. I'll probably be nowhere near done at the end of today sadly.
Thanks Yoshi btw (I'd probably have seen it later and retracted the question but I don't know how soon I'm getting there at this rate...)

[MMM]

Ok NEVER MIND; I stopped it literally at the end of page 11 and that's literally the next post, kill me

[MMM]

Stopped at page 17, didn't notice anything overly interesting (or at least I don't recall it... I'm getting a bit tired) and I'll continue tomorrow.

[MMM]

Welcome back Kelvin.
Whose claim is it that you found fishy?

Honestly, I wouldn't mind lynching Ray today to confirm his results. Also because I just generally have no trust for him. But that's probably paranoia speaking, so I think I won't act upon it.

I have to admit I thought about that for a bit, but I didn't want to discuss that before I was done with my reread and had everyone more or less sorted.

I could also see my way towards lynching someone other than Ray. There are few enough PRs with limited enough abilities that I think that all present claims could be legitimate.

If all claims are legitimate, I don't feel like the Mafia are extremely likely to have a role that bypasses Cop or Gunsmith. The entire town PR lineup is super restricted here. We've all got limiting modifiers that make synchronization difficult. I find it hard to believe that the Mafia also have ways to bypass our already limited investigative abilities. I'm not saying it's impossible (and I'm certainly open to counterarguments), it just feels very unlikely to me.

Given that a d3 massclaim could have resulted in not 2 but 3 innocent inspects along with the 2 investigative roles being possible confirmed innocents, under the assumption that both inspecting claims are indeed town, I don't actually believe it to be that unlikely that scum has one role that can bypass Gunsmith (this doesn't go for Cop, since Mafia Godfather is apparently not Normal) - again under the assumption that both inspecting roles are town.

@Priscilla,

PenguinPower

, Gamma Emerald, MMM, and BigYoshiFan: Please make a case for why we shouldn't lynch you and for who you think is scum among you

5

4.

I've been pretty open with my reads the whole game. As for who I'm lynching today I'll get that figured out once I finish my reread.

Has anybody at all considered that my claim may be fake? Granted, I don't think my scum game is that strong that I could've faked that level of breadcrumb. But still, my claim seems to be universally unquestioned.

I have considered that, actually, but I never said anything about it since having thought for it for a bit hard bussing the roleblocker would have honestly been pretty fucking stupid.

[MMM]

Has anybody at all considered that my claim may be fake? Granted, I don't think my scum game is that strong that I could've faked that level of breadcrumb. But still, my claim seems to be universally unquestioned.

I have considered that, actually, but I never said anything about it since having thought for it for a bit hard bussing the roleblocker would have honestly been pretty fucking stupid.

That's what makes it so goddamn diabolical. You might not know this about me, but I have no problems bussing my teammates whatsoever. The only real risk I'd run is a counterclaim.

1. So basically you're saying that from Ray's point of view, you should be confirmed scum, and vice versa?
2. As scum, how would you explain to town having survived another, say, 2 nights?
3. Assuming the lack of your death doesn't give you away, what results would you give after the scum roleblocker is a goner and you can't reasonably claim to not get results?

[MMM]

1. So basically you're saying that from Ray's point of view, you should be confirmed scum, and vice versa?
2. As scum, how would you explain to town having survived another, say, 2 nights?
3. Assuming the lack of your death doesn't give you away, what results would you give after the scum roleblocker is a goner and you can't reasonably claim to not get results?

How does 1 follow from what he said?

I have deliberately taken it out of context.

[MMM]

Has anybody at all considered that my claim may be fake? Granted, I don't think my scum game is that strong that I could've faked that level of breadcrumb. But still, my claim seems to be universally unquestioned.

I have considered that, actually, but I never said anything about it since having thought for it for a bit hard bussing the roleblocker would have honestly been pretty fucking stupid.

That's what makes it so goddamn diabolical. You might not know this about me, but I have no problems bussing my teammates whatsoever. The only real risk I'd run is a counterclaim.

1. So basically you're saying that from Ray's point of view, you should be confirmed scum, and vice versa?
2. As scum, how would you explain to town having survived another, say, 2 nights?
3. Assuming the lack of your death doesn't give you away, what results would you give after the scum roleblocker is a goner and you can't reasonably claim to not get results?

1. Nah. I'm saying that was my mindset when I first saw the claim. But looking at the full claim list, the setup honestly doesn't feel that stacked. Quite tame, honestly.

2. Scum are leaving me alive to make me look suspicious or some such bullshit.

3. Well, Odd-Night is pretty infrequent. I'd only have to give one or two more innocents or guilties. And I could always just lie to fuck with you guys.

1. Fair nuff. Also regarding your above, the end was to get this answer/stance from you (obviously (?))
2.5. (because it's in between 2 and 3... ok that wasn't very funny) You'd pretty much have to lock your entire play for the next bunch of days though. As in, lynch a VT today, kill Ircher, get a guilty on your other partner, kill Ray/PP/MM4, mislynch another VT, kill another inno, get a guilty on the last VT. And it would be HIGHLY unlikely that scum doesn't just outright kill you under the assumption that you're town so you'd be had sooner or later.

[MMM]

1. What would you hope to gain from purposely taking me out of context? I understood you wanted my stance or answer, but what kind of answer were you looking for? What would have been indicative of alignment?

2.5. I could envision a world where a scum team would try a stupid gambit like keeping a Cop alive as a mislynch target. Though the point is kind of moot, since my ploy has been exposed. Unless you think this whole sequence of events has been me as scum pulling some really bizarre gambit.

I'm going to bed for real now.

1. I usually don't actually know what answer I'm looking for - just that I want some sort of answer that I can elaborate on later. I'm not meticulous, and I really tend to do things as I go along, which I think this is a good example of. There was also the slim chance that my deliberately inflated interpretation was correct, which it temporarily actually appeared to have been, and I'm a bit surprised at how it wasn't as unreasonable as I had thought.

2.5. I could see scum keeping a PR alive for some dumb reason, but quite frankly, not if it's a Cop that can get hard guilties and innocents especially in the current game state. And given how town read you were, and still are, I really doubt you'd need to pull such a gambit as scum.

[MMM]

Went as far as page 24. Too much Transcend/Twoface/Titus/me drama and not much that's actually helpful.

[MMM]

I feel like if BYF was scum MMM/Priscila would be resisting his lynch more.

And it never occured to you that this might be my exact intention with suddenly claiming to doubt all my reads and wanting to reread the entire game to come to a definite conclusion?

I still think it's entirely probable that there is no mafia rolecop, and that a gunsmith doesn't exist.

Holy shit thank you I thought I was the only one

So 3 things:
1. Yoshi is starting to seem townier, and Gamma is starting to seem scummier again to me
2. The above does not factor in my reread, and at the rate at which I am going I can't say for sure I'll finish it by the end of this (game) day
3. If Ray is scum/MM4 or PP is Mafia Doctor and you all take Ray's inspects as clears that certainly come from town, I'm going to feel really really really bad about this game afterwards
That is all for the time being.

[MMM]

I would like to note that my vote remains on MMM.

Remind me why you're voting me again?

[MMM]

So you're saying that instead we should both blindly trust you and not even bother to consider a scenario in which you are scum and possibly lose town the game because of it?

[MMM]

Am I the only one who thinks the Yoshi lynch - specifically the last 3 votes - were a scummy as hell attempt to cut off discussion?

[MMM]

Probably because that's a completely silly theory.
That said PP's hammer was pretty terrible.

I think it's more than just silly/a coincidence that I was reconsidering the entire game state, specifically Yoshi, the lynchee, as well as Ray and his inspects, and then both of his inspects L-1 and hammer Yoshi pretty much out of the blue.
That said, you don't look as bad as PP does for that in my opinion.

This setup makes no sense to me now.

Same.

I'd also like to point out that if I were scum there's no real motivation to make the post that I did given you guys had already believed my previous claim. Usually modifications like those would come if people were wanting me dead, not when people were like "okay we can write ray off for now"

I had thought this at first, but I decided to wait for whether you were gonna post the same thing or not, and now it's just pure WIFOM. T__T

Jesus christ no.
Mafia don't have two roleblockers here. That's just bad. RBs are very powerful. They would NOT be given them to counter a gunsmith (instead, a doc/traitor), gated cop, and gated jailkeeper.
The ONLY way RayFrost's claim here could EVER be real is if Priscila is a Mafia Ascetic. Even then, 3-shot gunsmith is a BS role. Has 3-shot even ever been used in a Mini Normal at all?

Under the assumption that Priscila is a VT and Ray is indeed a 3-shot GS, then the no result could have only come from an unclaimed town roleblocker/jailkeeper (which would make this setup ridiculously townsided unless scum has ridiculous power as well, and would also mean they should fucking claim), or something ridiculous like a second Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker/Jailkeeper (which would be... yeah, ridiculous). Unless you think that either of these are the case, we have confirmed scum among the two of them, and if we believe that that is the case, I will most likely be voting Ray today.
I don't like the last sentence of that post, but I agree with it otherwise.

I'd also like to point out that if I were scum there's no real motivation to make the post that I did given you guys had already believed my previous claim. Usually modifications like those would come if people were wanting me dead, not when people were like "okay we can write ray off for now"

I mean yeah. It's a bad move as scum. But you clearly feel you can WIFOM out of it anyhow, so that doesn't matter so much.

And because everything happens way before I wake up, someone just always says what I want to say before I can say it myself.

like purely on reads alone i'd just purge mmm today and even now there is something to be said for that.
but i don't see tarkus/priscila being scum really and i also don't like the theories you are making to avoid having to 1v1 her.
idk maybe i'm just being extremely dumb. but fmpov ray is the best lynch today.

Yes.
Now, I don't know if I'm being blind here but have you ever stated why you want me gone? You've been wanting me dead for a while for no reason that I could actually find (other than, you know, finding it really weird that Mort was killed over Kelvin n1) and it's bothering me especially with your shift to Yoshi yesterday.

[MMM]

I thought about the possibility that maybe Ircher is Odd but then there's no way Kelvin could have died.

Mario don't ignore me pls.

[MMM]

I'd like a bit of respect about me not being dumb. I can't seriously imagine any intelligent person going out of their way to fakeclaim a role when not heavily suspected, then changing the fakeclaim to something else when not suspected for the previous fakeclaim being made. That's like... actively suicidal. I dunno.

Granted, but... I don't know. Two scum roleblockers in the same game? That makes no sense to me, personally. Priscila being Ascetic? This is a possibility. What if Priscila isn't Ascetic? Well... maybe there's a town roleblocker or jailkeeper not called Ircher? I doubt two town roleblockers too... which would leave Ircher.

I thought about the possibility that maybe Ircher is Odd but then there's no way Kelvin could have died.

Mario don't ignore me pls.

Since KS would just be regular conftown at that point it is possible Ircher tried to use his JK offensively.

You may have a point thinking about it since scum could then just kill Ircher and Kelvin back to back afterwards with zero added benefit...

[MMM]

Also even if Ircher does claim Odd JK, Ray could still be a Mafia Rolecop.

[MMM]

UNVOTE:
I hope Ircher just lied because neither RF or Priscila makes sense as scum.

That's... a sudden shift.

[MMM]

k

[MMM]

Alright.
There are 7 players alive. {MM4, PP, Ircher, Priscila, MMM, RayFrost, Gamma}
Realistic pool is more like {PP, MMM} for me.
Ircher is JK (prob a full one) and his claim #works

If he's full JK/generally speaking was able to JK last night, why would he JK Ray?

Priscila genuinely seems to be scumhunting and Tarkus was obvtown.

Elaborate on how Tarkus was obvtown?

Town is too underpowered without RF+ no scum motivation to do what he did.

While my sentiment is the same, not everything scum does has to be scum motivated, and town believing that it absolutely has to be the case lost me my last completed town game (shoutouts Grey) and if it costs this game as well I'm gonna be salty as fuck

Gamma feels kinda town although there admittedly is a chance he's actually scum.
PP was inno'd by RF but his hammer was shitcity and he has been laying back and not scumhunting at all.

Gunsmith "innos" aren't even proper innos.


And now we get to the meaty bit.

MMM hasn't been inno'd at all.

"he hasn't been innod so he must be scum"

The first point I'd make (although I'm guessing you're all bored by it) is MMM's NKA. Like, it rested on a really heavy number of assumptions "scum killed MF because he was weak scumreading them", "MF definitely wasn't scumreading ANY mafia" etc. and it feels really out of place. And it feels gross that he basically used it to pull himself out of the lynch pool.

You're definitely right... in that I'm getting bored of it.
I've explained before the reason I did it is because he was not the most widely town read player - by all accounts that should have been Kelvin. Especially now that we have confirmed Kelvin is indeed town, my NKA holds. It made me question BYF's alignment (and rightfully so) and led me to a scum pool which currently consists of one confirmed scum, one basically confirmed town, and 4 people who are nowhere near clear, as well as a town pool of 3 confirmed town - from my own point of view, anyway. I think I was absolutely on point with that whether you agree with me or not.
Also if I did say that he could not have been heavily scumreading mafia (which I don't think I did), then that was wrong of me, and what I will have meant to say is that people he had weak suspicions on were worth looking into more than people he had strong suspicions towards (notice I didn't put GE in the townpile).
As for excluding myself of the lynch pool... that's not scum motivated no matter how the hell you look at it unless you're implying town should WANT to be lynched and is a pathetic thing to say.
And please do list the other heavy assumptions I made - I see one.

He had Titus as scum D1 but never really pushed her- and in fact attacks BYF's case on Titus later.

Titus went from scummy to null to scummy (after the Fitz claim), and I believe that you're incorrect in that I didn't push her. In fact I was the first to reaction test her (from which I got scum vibes), I later pressured her to explain why she thought Mort was scum, etc. I ended up not voting fitz before the L-1 and claim because I felt it was dumb at the time and even if Ircher did end up being right about it, I didn't see a good case at the time, and was, as you know, busy with someone else.

"1. Is that supposed to translate to "don't lynch me after I mislynch Gamma/MMM"?"- this really pings me because it's such a huge stretch and is hugely pedantic

"this really pings me because it sounds like he scum reads me"
ftfy

I don't see him evaluating PP/me which should pretty much be the top priority for town in his position

See I wanted to do that with the reread but ended up not having much time for it/you decided to hammer before I could actually do it. And now you're accusing me of not doing it?

[MMM]

I wanted to post about something else that was bothering me, but my laptop started acting up, and in the process of taking care of that, I forgot what it was. I'll bring it up again if I remember what it was.

[MMM]

Elaborate on how Tarkus was obvtown?

p/ sure i already said this in more detail, but i see everything he did from a genuine town perspective

Link the post where you did elaborate?

MMM hasn't been inno'd at all.

"he hasn't been innod so he must be scum"

nope- just mentioning that it made you more lynchable than PP who is my other non-townread

Fine.

The first point I'd make (although I'm guessing you're all bored by it) is MMM's NKA. Like, it rested on a really heavy number of assumptions "scum killed MF because he was weak scumreading them", "MF definitely wasn't scumreading ANY mafia" etc. and it feels really out of place. And it feels gross that he basically used it to pull himself out of the lynch pool.

I've explained before the reason I did it is because he was not the most widely town read player - by all accounts that should have been Kelvin.

or not. MF was also widely townread. it's possible they thought he was a power role, etc.

I don't recall either Mort or Kelvin striking me as a PR, so unless scum thought differently I think they'll have gone with the player who had the more accurate view of the game.

Especially now that we have confirmed Kelvin is indeed town, my NKA holds. It made me question BYF's alignment (and rightfully so) and led me to a scum pool which currently consists of one confirmed scum, one basically confirmed town, and 4 people who are nowhere near clear

If you name a pool of 6 people, scum being inside it is not a massive shock.

It's not only the one scum that's in the pool, it's also the fact that the two players in the town pool are now confirmed town and all other players in the scum pool are alive lynchable, bar Ircher. My analysis probably won't lead to a perfect happy ending but so far it's been pretty damn close.

As for excluding myself of the lynch pool... that's not scum motivated no matter how the hell you look at it unless you're implying town should WANT to be lynched and is a pathetic thing to say.

but manipulating things to make you seem like town is scum-motivated

Still think town would want to be town read but... sure.

And please do list the other heavy assumptions I made - I see one.

1. The reason Mafia killed MortFeld was because he was weakly scumreading one of their members.
2. Posts like 705 or 1569 would make Mafia want to nightkill Mort
3. You're assuming Mafia are not just killing people who are suspicious of them, but those who HAVE been suspicious of them. For example, MF wasn't suspicious of me near the end of today; he eases off in posts like 1641 and questions RF's scumread of me in 1733.

Granted there are only three big assumptions but they are all pretty major.

No I'm pretty sure that all of those are basically the same thing.

He had Titus as scum D1 but never really pushed her- and in fact attacks BYF's case on Titus later.

Titus went from scummy to null to scummy (after the Fitz claim), and I believe that you're incorrect in that I didn't push her. In fact I was the first to reaction test her (from which I got scum vibes), I later pressured her to explain why she thought Mort was scum, etc. I ended up not voting fitz before the L-1 and claim because I felt it was dumb at the time and even if Ircher did end up being right about it, I didn't see a good case at the time, and was, as you know, busy with someone else.

Yeah, there's no real way to tell whether this is true or whether you weakened up because you are scum with Titus so let's just drop this.

Fair.

"1. Is that supposed to translate to "don't lynch me after I mislynch Gamma/MMM"?"- this really pings me because it's such a huge stretch and is hugely pedantic

"this really pings me because it sounds like he scum reads me"
ftfy

My point stands.

Honestly I know my MMM case is pretty unconvincing

Yet you do the same thing again in this very post. I'm fully aware that town can only have so much certainty and confidence in their reads but your emphasis on it is unsettling to me.

I don't see him evaluating PP/me which should pretty much be the top priority for town in his position

See I wanted to do that with the reread but ended up not having much time for it/you decided to hammer before I could actually do it. And now you're accusing me of not doing it?

Nah, you did have time to do it. Actually- why not do it now?

A reread isn't something that takes 30 minutes - at least not in my mind. If I decided to put my mind to it, I may be able to get it done now, but I have no motivation for it after you all hammered one of my main reasons for actually bloody doing it without letting me at least have a last word.

[MMM]

Nah it's fine. I prefer posting shorter anyways.
Yes I know you didn't hammer, but you did help.
I don't recall how long we still had but I think we had a week or so? I don't think I could have finished the reread but it would have been nice to have the chance to do so.
I wouldn't be calling you out for your uncertainty so much if you weren't emphasising it so much throughout the entire game. I could find at least 1-2 more examples if you wanted me to but regardless, the uncertainty isn't scummy, it's a fairly townie thing to have, but as I said you're emphasising it too much. Did I say you emphasise it too much yet?
Right now I'd wait for Ircher to post and full claim if his role is different from what he said, and we can see about who to lynch after that. If, however, his only modifier is even, as he claims, then I can't see Priscila and Ray both being town, and lynching both of them will certainly find us at least one scum.

[MMM]

Like, at least you're willing to discuss with me and give reasoning. That counts for something already in my eyes.

[MMM]

So RayFrost is confirmed town.

The host error is most likely related to RayFrost since we cannot explain his result without Priscila flipping Ascetic/maybe Commuter (which she would have probably claimed ages ago by now regardless of alignment), and while he could technically be a scum investigative role, that would make the setup really scumsided unless there is an unclaimed town PR... which at this point is also nigh impossible. If he's fake claiming, he's most likely a regular Goon, however then I also can't explain where the host error lies, though it's still possible that it's unrelated.
tl;dr Ray is probably town but I'm not going as far as to conftown him

That aside, I feel more comfortable about MM4 after going through his actual reasoning for wanting me dead for what at least feels like almost the entire game. While Gamma+Priscila could be the scum team, I have had a really bad feeling about PP throughout the entire game and his hammer yesterday didn't make matters any better - if Ray's claim is true, which is most likely is, and there is a Mafia Doctor/Traitor, then I'd say it's likely PP, and I still believe there is one because 3-Shot GS/Odd Cop/Even JK/DV are too much power for town for the 2-Shot Roleblocker to be scum's only power, and Mafia Doctor just makes sense to me, at least partly due to prior experience.

VOTE: PenguinPower

[MMM]

I would really like to think it's as simple as just lynching Gamma and Priscila but it's probably not

[MMM]

I would really like to think it's as simple as just lynching Gamma and Priscila but it's probably not

Yes of course it's that simple, why bother letting people explain shit when you already know scum with as much confidence as a cop with an inspect on everyone?

.

[MMM]

I suppose that was inevitable lmao

[MMM]

@Mods; Hypothetically, if there were a scenario were a player was an investigative, and got No Result when they were meant to get another result, would that player be sent the updated result?

I can answer this for you. The answer is of course no. Because if you change the result, then how do you explain it to the other players? You cannot without confirming Ray's alignment.

Also, I am partners with Gamma? Great, come bus with me.

Vote: Gamma

This vote is bad unless someone accused you of being partners with Gamma, which I don't recall seeing. And even then it's not great.

Because I instantly posted about my results, the mods wouldn't have a choice in the matter. If they send me a change, it confirms me, and it impacts the game state directly. It'd be meddling. The mods right now have no choice but to think in their heads "goddammit we just screwed up and can't fix it" - I don't envy their position.

I do not understand the voting on gamma. Can someone explain to me the logic behind that?

And... someone else has to snipe me to it. Yet again. This is becoming painful.

I'd like to have the rest of you guys confirm your belief that for my lack of a result to be accurate that Priscilla has to be lying scum or I have to be lying scum.

Before I decide to throw down the gauntlet.

I definitely believed that before the mod error confirmation. Given that we know there was an error but don't know what it is, there's a chance that neither of you is lying scum, even though it's slim. With that said I'm still voting PP, at least for the time being, because I can't look away from how scummy I find him.
If other town still believes that there is definitely one scum among both of you I wouldn't mind keeping my vote inside your 1v1 though.

[MMM]

If other town still believes that there is definitely one scum among both of you I wouldn't mind keeping my vote inside your 1v1 though.

This was badly worded but I hope you get what I mean

[MMM]

Given the assumption that the mods have hypothetically confirmed to me in a possible pm exchange that my potential result might have been quite accurate and therefore need no change,

would you believe that one of us must be lying scum?

Just hypothetically.

As a possible situation.

That may or may not occur or be occuring.

As I said, I believe it's >almost< certain that one of you is scum, but I'd prefer having everyone else's opinion first if we are to go into that 1v1.
If by any chance the host error isn't even related to your result from tonight, then voting one of you is, again, the correct play as well.
And if this 1v1 does happen, I'll need some time to think about it, because I've been leaning scum on you and town on Priscila throughout d3 but my mind has changed since the beginning of this day and I'm not sure how much of it is just me subconciously sheeping Kelvin.
If the 1v1 does not happen, then I'm already voting my preferred lynchee.

[MMM]

This is MYLO, and while Ray is very likely to be scum, let's not vote hastily, especially since Ircher probably found scum.

[MMM]

honestly there is no reason for scum to not nokill here

This is... actually a good point.

Top 2 lynch candidates from everyone please.

Ray followed by PP. I could see Gamma being scum but since scum no killing is a possibility maybe we should actually discount Ircher's target, in which case my lynch targets become Ray and PP as I said.

[MMM]

honestly there is no reason for scum to not nokill here

This is... actually a good point.

you sound surprised

I know it's WIFOM - and that other people might see it differently and therefore act accordingly - but if I was scum I would have definitely tried killing the JK claim, it just seems like the optimal play to me.

[MMM]

I'm pretty sure what he means is he doesn't want us to lynch before he has time to respond, and not that he would like us to no lynch, which would be incredibly stupid.

[MMM]

@Mod: The deadline is outdated.

[MMM]

Uh... nope. I did hypothesise that it may be unrelated to Ray's result but things still don't make any sense no matter how you look at it...

[MMM]

Naked prodge time yay

I'm gone for the next few hours, hopefully I'll come back to something actually happening.
Ray should have posted about 3 hours ago by now sigh. I'm not in a rush anyways.

[MMM]

Oh, past game meta... yay.
@Penguin: What was post 2890 supposed to accomplish?
@Gamma: Why do you feel like it's justified to lie in

this

case?

[MMM]

Oh, past game meta... yay.
@Penguin: What was post 2890 supposed to accomplish?
@Gamma: Why do you feel like it's justified to lie in

this

case?

I don't really understand the question? Are you asking why I felt the need to lie?

Yes, and without referring to the other game where you did it as town.

[MMM]

VOTE: Priscila
I'm 100% here.

why did you pull this

Because I felt certain Priscila was mafia.
As for why I believe MMM is scum I've PoEd it down to PP and MMM after realizing Ray fakeclaiming is an insanely stupid gambit. I'm voting MMM since PP actually engaged me.

I've tried engaging you on day 3 and what I got from that is that it's pointless.

@MMM:

You are basicall just watching his thread w/o trying to do anything. Why?

I think I said before that I don't feel like going back at the old stuff to solidify my reads. As it stands I'd rather respond to what people have to say in the here and now.

With that said, Ray might actually be town, and Gamma is seeming like an increasingly better lynch.

[MMM]

I didn't really intend to lie, I just forgot what I said before.
Are you going to lynch me off one single contradiction? For real?

This bit is fair enough, and if I do vote you it'll be for far more than just that.

[MMM]

What if Penguin's scum with Ray? What if I'm scum?

If you're scum then town is screwed because I think you're never going to be lynched over the other 4 possibilities (I think I'm still one, and in any case, one vote is more than zero).
If Penguin is scum with Ray, town might still be able to figure it out.
However I'm leaning more towards Gamma and Penguin right now.

[MMM]

With that said I need to look at something that just popped in my mind, actually...

[MMM]

What if Penguin's scum with Ray? What if I'm scum?

If Penguin is scum with Ray then Ray pulled a fucking insane gambit. I can see it but my thoughts are "it's inadvisable". I remember another game where there was a double cc. That game a VT fakeclaimed one-shot cop to get obvscum lynched, and the next day the real cop outed their investigation.

This can apply to MMM/Ray, too. So you have to be almost certain that the scumteam is MMM/PP for this logic to work- how willing would you be to lynch Penguin today?

MMM, do you think PP/Ray or Gamma/Ray is more likely?

If Ray is scum then it'd almost certainly be with PP.

[MMM]

I was basically checking the circumstances around both hammers. I keep forgetting that Gamma's hammer isn't actually as bad as I remember.

Do you have a meta of not bussing? No you don't.
I really dislike that attempt to pull me off.

Not sure what you mean by "pull you off." I just wanna get an idea of what seems like a bus to you, and not like you had to be a die-hard to bus.

I wanna keep interacting with you when I come back; I think that's my best method of proving you scum.

Like that Ray is on it. Don't like Gamma is on it. Like that Priscilla isn't on it. Don't like his reads.

VOTE: BigYoshiFan.

However this right here read a lot like scum wanting to prevent a member of the town from convincing town that their buddy is scum and should be lynched.

[MMM]

It matter because I'd rather have someone who will rationally discuss with me than someone who won't PP has proven he will.

Which is clearly shown in your posts...

Yeah so "pass" goes to "very likely town" then
So, um, I guess it has to be MMM/BYF for me lol

...such as this sequence after the previous post...

Yeah so "pass" goes to "very likely town" then
So, um, I guess it has to be MMM/BYF for me lol

Well I guess it HAS to be those for you, huh?

Well DUHUUUH!
VOTE: BigYoshiFan
Don't like this reaction.

LOL this level of blowback is fantastic

LOL I'm having fun just watching you two be absolute scumfucks

Nah
You guys fighting the townblock is FANTASTIC

[MMM]

What if Penguin's scum with Ray? What if I'm scum?

If Penguin is scum with Ray then Ray pulled a fucking insane gambit. I can see it but my thoughts are "it's inadvisable". I remember another game where there was a double cc. That game a VT fakeclaimed one-shot cop to get obvscum lynched, and the next day the real cop outed their investigation.

This can apply to MMM/Ray, too. So you have to be almost certain that the scumteam is MMM/PP for this logic to work- how willing would you be to lynch Penguin today?

MMM, do you think PP/Ray or Gamma/Ray is more likely?

If Ray is scum then it'd almost certainly be with PP.

So;
Me, you and Ircher are town
Two of {PP, Ray, Gamma} are scum
If RayFrost is scum, PenguinPower is almost certainly scum
If RayFrost is not scum, PenguinPower is certainly scum

So why do you want to vote Gamma today at all?

^if you saw this and forgot to answer this MMM i'd like an answer

I did not see that post actually. It doesn't help both of you currently have like literally the same avatar and I was responding to 2945.

That aside, I don't think I declared intention to vote Gamma. Sure he's seeming scummier as time goes by but in either case PP is most likely the partner. I wanted to give it time until Ray comes back to declare my updated lynch preferences but I guess that I'll just say that PP is at the top right now and the second slot is a tossup between Gamma and Ray, where I'd probably but not yet certainly vote Gamma.

[MMM]

idek how I'm being an asshole lmao

With that said, Ray might actually be town, and Gamma is seeming like an increasingly better lynch.

^this
and for someone who has PP as practically confirmed scum you haven't been pushing PP very hard, either

Should probably have specified that PP is still a better lynch. Soon as I thought about the Ray thing and figured the fake claim would indeed make little sense as scum that moved PP above Ray, and the way Gamma's been acting this day made him move above Ray for me but not above PP. And even if he seems scummier than PP I'll probably still vote PP because one of Gamma/Ray is almost certainly scum in my eyes and in either case PP is the most likely partner.

[MMM]

brb recounting votes

[MMM]

Alright. I count 1 vote on Gamma, me, and VOTE: PenguinPower

[MMM]

PP is the partner of either Gamma or Ray in my eyes.
Unless scum no killed for the WIFOM, Gamma also has to be scum, though I feel it's less likely than PP not being scum so we'll at least last one more day if Gamma is actually town.
I've seen Ray as scum almost the entire game but I've reconsidered on him. His claim change makes little sense as scum but sadly the result he got makes no sense if he's town either, so I won't ignore him doing anything outrageously scummy.
As a result I'll help with lynching either of the two candidates atm.

[MMM]

If Penguin is scum with Ray then Ray pulled a fucking insane gambit. I can see it but my thoughts are "it's inadvisable".

If you mean this then it's something that I agree on. If you mean something else quote it pl0x