Mini Normal 1908 - In The Web (Game Over)

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin Smith, Hikari Link's alt, has replaced Hikari Link

I really wish you would not have allowed that...

Because...?

[Kelvin Smith]

now when i want to iso you I have to use the multi-user

Yeah, but now I don't have to switch out between accounts to post in this game, which means I won't be inherently inclined to be less active in this game, so... I guess it kinda balances out?

[Kelvin Smith]

This was a post that I thought I submitted before I rushed off to school, but I didn't realize other posts had I occurred when I hit submit, so it never got sent.

Hikari what do you think of Rayfrost slot?

Need more info on him to get a better read.

ou see this right here? This isn't helpful.

having everyone list their top 3 isn't helpful either though.

Wheme is who I want lynched. call me stubborn or a bad player or whatever but he scum claimed and i can't vote elsewhere

Stubborn? Probably. Bad? That's probably not my place to decide.

I don't recall Wheme scum claiming (except possibly as a joke, but I've seen that before, so...) . And even if you won't get onboard, maybe somebody else will. And if w get to the deadline, I hope that you'll actually hammer, rather than let a no lynch happen on principle.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Hikari what about grey? No read on him?

To be quite honest, not off the top of my head. I never got to interact with him directly and I just kinda skimmed the action at the time. Might ISO him later, when I have the chance, but I'm generally opposed to lynching low-activity players Day 1. There are semi-legitimate reasons (as well as some less legitimate reasons) to do this as town.

[Kelvin Smith]

Spoiler: Analysis of Who People Want to Kill

Please let me know if any of these is wrong, because everyone was not nice enough to make a convenient list for me with a clear order.

Kelvin's Top 3

PP
Wheme
Gamma
Bonus: IDGAF and will lynch most people, if the wagon is popular

MMM's Top 3

Yoshi
PP
Wheme

Mario's Top 3

Ircher
Gamma
Ray

fitz's Top 4

Wheme
Gamma
Yoshi/Ircher

TwoFace's Top 1

Wheme

Tarkus's Top 2

Gamma
Wheme

Mort's List of Lynchables

Tarkus
Ircher
Gamma
Mario

Ircher's Lynch Pool

PP
Tarkus
Ray

Wheme Presumed List of Because He Won't Make a Damn List Like I Asked

MMM
Ray
Mario

Based on these numbers, I see a potential of:

3 Votes for PP
6 votes for Wheme (though it seems most are merely compromising on this)
5 Votes for Gamma
3 Votes for Yoshi (counting my IDGAF)
4 Votes for Ircher (counting my IDGAF)
3 Votes for Ray (no IDGAF because lynching lurkers Day 1 seems like a bad policy)
3 Votes for Mario (counting my IDGAF)

As you can all see, Gamma and Wheme are the only two really viable lynches right now, so let go of your pipe dreams Day 1. If a person you want lynched isn't one of those two people, make a case against them now and if you die tonight, we'll evaluate the case tomorrow. For now, let's stop dicking around and end this hellish nightmare.

tl;dr:
1. Gamma and wheme are the only viable candidates.
2. If you want someone else lynched, make a case against them now so that we can evaluate it Day 2 in the event that you die.

[Kelvin Smith]

This gamestate is awful.

I agree -
which is why getting someone lynched already would be great.

I don't know what the reason is but there is a large set {Tarkus, Ircher, GE, MM4} and you might throw me in there not counting the first few pages and maybe MMM, who are implicitly keeping the gamestate where it is by posting yet having very few game-related interactions.

I believe I've stated the situation with my exams already, it's making me much less motivated to post a lot especially when coupled with the entire transcend thing/other non-game related life problems.

I feel you MMM, vote PP with me?

VOTE: ircher

Did literally anybody look at my most where I said that Gamma and Wheme are the only viable wagons right now? People have said who they are willing to vote for. If you want the day to end, vote for one of the people who can actually get lynched.

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: ircher

Why don't you vote someone? @everyone not voting

Because it's either GE or a vanity wagon.

If you acknowledged how shit the gamestate is right now, then why are you hoping on a vanity wagon yourself?

[Kelvin Smith]

The gamestate is shit because scum are okay with the prospective Lynch targets

Or they are because they are fine with bussing here for towncred.
Or they aren't okay with them and that's why we can't achieve a lynch.
Or they are inactive and they have no opinion on the current wagons.
Or this has nothing to do with scum and everything to do with the town not being able to get its shit together and caring too much about an almost inevitable Day 1 mislynch.

See? I can make up potential scenarios too. At the end of the day, who cares? Let's just end this day and move on with our lives.

[Kelvin Smith]

Oh apparently I'm supposed to not care about whether we lynch scum or town day 1 oops

Pretty much. Most towns mislynch, especially Day 1. I'm not gonna lose any sleep if it happens.

Your strategy forces the lynch to be one of 2-3 targets. One of these is virtually guaranteed to be town. If the other 1-2 were scum, do you really think scum sits back here and tepidly votes the town option? Scum has no stake in the two "compromise" lynches (hint they're not compromises) so we are sitting here dicks in our hands until someone dies and we go "Darn why did we compromise!" You are letting scum HEAVILY influence who is pressured and who is not.

Of course if town hadn't spent the majority of this DP twiddling its thumbs too (myself included) we wouldn't be in this place but you're acting like this DP is irredeemable and it's not.

If only one of the 3 is scum, then scum don't vote for the compromise that is scum. They can easily hide behind the other options and just say that they think the scum target is town or that they have stronger scumreads. But there should only 3 in a setup of this size, so it's not like they have absolute control over the vote. On top of that, there's plenty of motivation for scum to bus here. I can't speak for anybody else, but I have no problem bussing for towncred Day 1 (or any other day, for that matter). So to say that the leading wagons have virtually no chance of being scum strikes me as a bit narrow-minded.

I'm not saying I want us to mislynch here; quite the opposite. I'm just saying it's just not that likely that we're going to catch scum right now, with our lack of information. And since it's not that likely, I'm not going to be heartbroken if it's a mislynch. You say that scum are happily sitting about and letting this happen? Prove it. Let the mislynch happen and then start analyzing who pushed those lynches, rather than the alternative. Because it's the people with strong feelings right now that are the most worrisome to me.

It's not like you have to worry about dying tonight, MortFeld. You and I are the obvious Doctor bait right now. Scum would be fools to target us. And a Doctor would be a fool to target anyone but us. And that includes TwoFace. He even said himself that he probably needs to die at some point. Yes, this is a blatant statement to both a Doctor and the Mafia. What are you gonna do about it?

[Kelvin Smith]

With Mort's vote, I believe that is on the same level as Gamma.

But there's a difference between a number of votes and the amount of support for a lynch. As far as I'm aware (and please correct me if I'm wrong), you, Mort, and fitz are the only ones who have expressed any level of interest in lynching Ircher. And fitz has him low on the list.

[Kelvin Smith]

aaaaaah k i thought ircher wasn't on mort's list for some reason.
I still want to see if I can convince people to lynch Ircher- if not I'll switch back to Gamma i guess.

I'll go ahead and look at his ISO further, but I honestly don't find your current argument compelling. Just glancing at his ISO, I'm inclined to townread him pretty heavily right now, honestly.

[Kelvin Smith]

To be fair, I haven't looked at Mort's case either. My utter disdain for this day's persistence, despite all my best efforts, has admittedly sapped my motivation and made me lazier in reading cases that have been made. But since people seem intent on dragging this day on, I guess I might as well put in a little more effort. Expect something out of me tomorrow.

Let the record show that I will be annoyed if and when we mislynch, now that I've resolved to try here. I'm not pointing fingers or suggesting that anybody is in the wrong for wanting to avoid a mislynch. I'm just telling you preemptively what my attitude is likely to be.

[Kelvin Smith]

Am I the only one who really wants to lynch Gamma? Maybe it's just his recent posting, but he really does feel like opportunistic scum.

@Gamma: What are your reads right now and why? No more low-effort bullshit. I'll lynch a faux-active person over a lurker any day of the week.

[Kelvin Smith]

1. You and MM4 are the only people Im not willing to lynch because I read you as Town
2. Not lynching fitz or TF since they are PRs and there's no good reason to scumread them
3. Kinda reading MMM as town rn
4. Null town on BYF and Mort I guess
5. WhemeStar seems like newbtown imo
5. Tarkus and RayFrost need to post more
6. Ircher and PP are p much where I feel scum might be at rn. I know I said PP's play seemed towny earlier but the circumstances aren't quite the same as I thought.

Disclaimer: Numbers were added to the quote for clarity
1. You read Mario and I as town because...?

2. There's

no

good reason to suspect either of them, just because they are claimed PRs?

3. Again, for what reasons?

4. You guess?

5. A guy who has been playing on this site for 4 months is newbtown? It's the most common allegiance in the game, how long do you think it takes to pick it up?

6. Why are the circumstances not the same as you thought? And do you have any reasons to think Ircher is scum besides what Mort (who you apparently "guess" is null town) has said?

My vote for you just went from one of apathetic compromise to one backed by a serious scumread. Please answer my questions and explain why that shouldn't be the case.

[Kelvin Smith]

Those are just my reads
Vote me if you like idrc

You claim that they are your reads, but for what reason?

I've already voted you. Unlike TwoFace, I can't vote again. But your apathy towards my scumread doesn't sit well with me.

[Kelvin Smith]

I really am not engaged this game
Probably since I expected to be a fun role again. Last Xnadroj game I was an Ascetic Enabler so I had game info to get myself engaged with
Now I'm just a lowly VT (hardclaim) so I guess that may be causing my apathy

If that's true, that's a pretty selfish mindset. Going into apathetic mode because you don't get to be a super cool PR is extremely anti-town and I feel like it's just a generally unethical attitude. Same for players who just check out because they are the opposite of the alignment that they like to play.

[Kelvin Smith]

I've been trying to stay engaged since I feel the game has already had too many replace outs

I can understand where you are coming from with that. But if you're trying to stay engaged, then please answer my questions. They weren't rhetorical and I'm not hardlocking you into a scum position. If you're town, show me that you are through your play. Explain yourself in a way that allows me to understand your thought process.

[Kelvin Smith]

1. I don't think you and Mario are scum since I feel you've been the most honest players
2. No good reason to lynch the PRs means no cop reports or incriminating flips.
3. After thinking things over MMM seems to have good logic.
4. I don't feel BYF and Mort are scum but I don't really have as much confidence in those than the other townreads
5. I feel WhemeStar is just town who is a bit of a nutcase. I've selfhammered to progress a game once as Town.
6. In the game I checked of PP's he made a small case, here he was objecting to making a big case. As for Ircher, I felt they were scummy in the beginning, dropped the suspicion, but now I'm turning that stone again.

1. Honest in what way? And are you saying scum can't be honest?

2. I'm not sure what you mean by this sentence. Could you restate it for clarity?

3. What about his logic seems good? A few examples, please.

4. Yes, but what about them makes you feel they are town? And what are they lacking that makes you less sure of them? And please don't just say honesty. I'm trying to follow your thought process here to see if it seems genuine or manufactured.

5. He didn't self-hammer though, only self-voted. I can see scum using that as a ploy to look like frustrated town. The slot worries me because it has constantly been playing up the frustration angle and it's hard to tell if that's serious or not through text. The fact that it has been consistent over players bothers me a little though.

6a. Why does that make PP scummy? When did he make the case? Can you provide a link?

6b. What about Ircher seemed scummy before? What made you drop it? Why are you back on him, other than because there is now a wagon on him?

If you are town, I'd advise against claiming VT before you're at L-1 in the future. Helps scum more than town. Honestly, this is another reason why I want a lynch from the current pool. We're getting too many claims and it's going to make it easier and easier for scum to try to snipe PRs at Night.

[Kelvin Smith]

Should I add explanations to the posts I quote by MMM that I feel are towny?

Yes, please do.

[Kelvin Smith]

1) sure scum can be honest but it feels like Town honesty, you seem to wear your thoughts on your sleeve
2) the times I've lynched claimed PRs have usually been for information affecting their claim.
Mini 1830: Watcher claimed he'd flip blue (PR) when a PR had just flipped green. Was Town. D2
Mini 1854: Scum fakeclaimed JK and was soft CCed by bodyguard, and got lynched. D1
Mini 1860: Mafia Strongman fakeclaimed bodyguard Day 1, I, as vig, shot the Doctor, incriminating the claimed BG. Lynched the Strongman D2.
3) I feel like his scumhunting is founded on real principles. Examples later.
4) They lack a clarity I feel with my other townreads. My thoughts on them feel muddy.
5) I feel it's Town that just wants to aid the game state by sacrificing himself. Whether he self hammered is irrelevant.
6) I'll get to those in a bit

1. Yeah, I hear this reasoning about me a lot. My advise: don't use that as a reason to townread me. Town or scum, I generallylike to lay all my cards on the table whenever possible.

2. Okay, I think I see what you mean now. So you're not saying they aren't scum, you're saying you want to wait until you can get info from their deaths?

3. I look forward to seeing them.

4. This could use some cleaning up in terms of thought process, but I think I get the gist of what you are saying.

5. I think there is some level of difference between a self-vote and a self-hammer. Nonetheless, I can at least understand the thought process here.

6. I look forward to this as well.

See, this was a really good post. More posts like these and you could be a very helpful player. I'm willing to give you a townread, contingent on continued quality posting that is unprompted by pressure.

UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald
VOTE: WhemeStar

Honestly, I would rather go for PP right now, but I don't think I really want anymore claims today. We've already gotten too many as it is.

[Kelvin Smith]

Addressing 2, I'm saying the only way I'm lynching them is if something comes up that suggests something is wrong.

That's a reasonable stance to take on a Watcher, but a Double Voter is a little different. Not to say I condone lynching TwoFace, but other than an informative role investigating him, there's no way for something to come up based on his role. If he is continuously on bad wagons for reasons that seem to be scum-motivated though, you should definitely be open to lynching him.

[Kelvin Smith]

You can't have a spoiler inside of a spoiler, which Yoshi's post had. You probably would've been best off spoilering each post one by one and also removing Yoshi's spoiler tag. Though if you aren't super familiar with BBCode, then it can be a pain.

Go ahead and sleep. I'll probably respond to that tomorrow. Got some things I agree and disagree with.

[Kelvin Smith]

Not contributing right now, because things to do today. Just skimming and saw this"

And, I'm pretty sure RayFrost didn't replace Grey, and I have yet to see anything from Frost that makes me lean town there.

What the hell are you talking about? Who do you think he replaced then? It's super easy to verify that he did, in fact, replace Grey.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm here, currently working on getting my post completely together. Finding posts I want to highlight and such, etc, etc.

I'm going to put it here that I absolutely abhor the overuse of meta and

anyone

who attempts to ignore me by handwaving what I have to say and saying "but it's that person's

meta

" will incur my wrath.

Someone having a meta of playing scummy is not an excuse to ignore scummy things they do. Do not positively reinforce bad play.

Mind you none of you have done that yet, but I want that out there now before I have to deal with "but I know this person and that's just what they do." I'm not having it.

Sure, that's a great policy, in theory. In practice, it means you mislynch people because they have a suboptimal playstyle.

[Kelvin Smith]

Ray is town?

I wouldn't be so sure of that...

[Kelvin Smith]

Also I now see why Kelvin wants to consolidate so badly.

Sorry for helping to derail.

Actually, I want to thank you for derailing that. I'm actually getting some pretty interesting reads as a result. It's primarily in my gut, but I feel like I'm starting to get a better picture of this game as a result of it being dragged out.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Mod: Has TwoFace been prodded? He hasn't been around for quite a while.

I think now is about the time to achieve a lynch.

For me, my lynch pool is Wheme, PP, or possibly Ray.

I know people are feeling pretty good about Ray right now, but I'm not. I don't think I'm feeling bad enough about him to condone a lynch today, but I want to keep an eye on him. No matter what, I don't think we should let the game fall into his pace.

Wheme is one I'm still really not sure on. There are bits that feel like they are scum-motivated, but I something in my gut says says town. I mostly just support the lynch so that we'll have fewer claims.

PP still feels like a decent target to me, but I don't like the idea of more claims.

[Kelvin Smith]

Sure, that's a great policy, in theory. In practice, it means you mislynch people because they have a suboptimal playstyle.

If you don't want to get lynched for seeming like mafia (aka playing badly), learn how to seem like town (aka play better). Harsh? Yes. True? Yes.

True, yes. But the responsibility doesn't lie solely on the poor player. It's the responsibility of better players to draw out quality play from poor players. If they don't, then the good players just as likely to mislynch bad town as they are to lynch bad scum. I believe that putting the onus entirely on weaker players to "git gud" is short-sighted and anti-town.

Ray is town?

I wouldn't be so sure of that...

Are you going to follow up on this or is this a one-off comment?

I wasn't particularly planning on it, but I guess I might as well. You're giving me a bad vibe. The things you are saying aren't that different from what other people have said, but they feel much more calculated and predatory.

Do you have anything to actually say about what I said RE: Gamma Emerald?

Yeah, I think it felt like an opportunistic attack on a player that you perceive as an easy target.

P-edit: I see you saying you don't feel good about me and are worried about the game falling into my pace.

Is your distrust of me caused by the fact I'm being assertive or by the fact that my posting is actually

suspicious

in some way? Question me if you have questions.

Nah, being assertive isn't the issue. It's that the content of your posts feels super sketchy. I mean, it's obviously just my own perspective, but my interaction with Gamma felt pretty genuine and I got a strong feeling of town-mindedness from him. You instead chose to pick on it as only being active when pressured. Admittedly, that was my read on him at first, but seeing his posts now, I just don't see it. My intuition tells me that he's town and you are predatory scum. But I'm grounded enough to know that my intuition can be wrong, so I'd rather that you were watched and everyone be put on their guard, rather than outright lynching you here.

I've seen charismatic scum. I've

been

charismatic scum. That's what you strike me as right now, so I think it would dangerous to let the town fall into your pace. And I had to say it because with you around, I'm much more worried about dying at night.

[Kelvin Smith]

All this mutter from you and kelvin about "it's so suspicious how convincing rayfrost is" bothers me significantly. Because it's a

nonsense

argument. "Charismatic" is not an adjective that has an alignment.

That's not what I said. Your argument isn't convincing to me and that's my whole point. If I thought it was a sound argument, regardless of my alignment, I'd be voting Gamma right now. I don't, so I'm not. And furthermore, I never said that charismatic is an adjective that has an alignment. I'm saying you read like charismatic scum to me, as opposed to charismatic town.

If I knew you guys were scum, I could quote your behavior here as the perfect example of "scum trying their best to discredit someone town without actually trying to push the case because they don't have anything to work with"

Funny, because if I knew you were scum, I could quote your behavior here as the perfect example of "scum getting mad about 'getting caught for the wrong reason.'"

Also, what would you call it if you knew Mario or I were town?

[Kelvin Smith]

Spoiler: @Ray

I wasn't particularly planning on it, but I guess I might as well. You're giving me a bad vibe. The things you are saying aren't that different from what other people have said, but they feel much more calculated and predatory.

Can you point out the things I've said that are a repeat of something someone else has said?

Sure, I guess I'll look into that for you. Didn't feel particularly new though. I feel like I said some of those things myself earlier in the game, but maybe I just thought them.

Do you have anything to actually say about what I said RE: Gamma Emerald?

Yeah, I think it felt like an opportunistic attack on a player that you perceive as an easy target.

Okay. How is he an easy target? What about this is favorable to me over taking the easy path of pushing the current highest wagon (the one on whemestar) to completion? Several people have expressed town-reads on Gamma Emerald, there have been almost no people that actually

oppose

the whemestar lynch so much as preferring a different one.

Because if Gamma's town and you're scum, he's got more going for him that could be exploited than Wheme and Transcend. There has always been a lingering shadow of doubt over that slot. On top of which, Wheme is pretty much a done deal. You can let it happen without having to be on a mislynch if Wheme is town. And you'd even be able to get some towncred for trying to push a counterwagon. Plus, because of the negative sentiment towards Wheme, even if you made a Gamma lynch happen today, you could easily get a Wheme lynch to happen tomorrow. As scum you'd have so many options here that I don't even know why you feel the need ask how this is favorable, other than in hopes that I won't think of the various reasons this is a good move for you as scum.

Nah, being assertive isn't the issue. It's that the content of your posts feels super sketchy. I mean, it's obviously just my own perspective, but my interaction with Gamma felt pretty genuine and I got a strong feeling of town-mindedness from him. You instead chose to pick on it as only being active when pressured. Admittedly, that was my read on him at first, but seeing his posts now, I just don't see it. My intuition tells me that he's town and you are predatory scum. But I'm grounded enough to know that my intuition can be wrong, so I'd rather that you were watched and everyone be put on their guard, rather than outright lynching you here.

I've seen charismatic scum. I've

been

charismatic scum. That's what you strike me as right now, so I think it would dangerous to let the town fall into your pace. And I had to say it because with you around, I'm much more worried about dying at night.

What about my posting makes you think my charismatic nature is indicative of me being scum rather than town? Or is my charisma completely separate and just a fact that accompanies your belief that I'm scum?

It's not that your charisma is indicative of you being town rather than scum. It's that your charisma makes it much easier for you as scum to lead the charge on mislynches. And as a charismatic player, you are much less likely to be detected as scum, which is why you are somebody I'm wary of.

Are you saying that you thought the same things I did and then changed your mind seeing his responses

after

what I posted?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question. I think you're asking me when I thought the things you thought. I thought them when Gamma was one of my top scumreads. He was very reactive and otherwise not very involved. My most recent interaction with him changed my mind though, which I believe happened before you posted your case.

And why would my being in the game make you feel worried about dying at night? You've been overly focused on the night phase and the shots that are going to go down and trying to control what happens there. Just stop. Every post you make about this does nothing to serve the town. It is incredibly anti-town to be vocally expressing your thoughts re: the night game as it gives more information to the informed minority (scum) than it does to the uninformed majority (town).

I'll have to disagree with you on that one. I prefer to WIFOM the Mafia so that they second-guess their decisions during the Night. And I tend to think that it's better for the town to be cognizant of the fact that regardless of whether or not they are a PR, they can exert some level of control over he Night with their words and actions during the Day.

[Kelvin Smith]

Since you kids all want to do meta reads, I should point out that I have a slightly out of date wiki page about me that was at one point managed by someone who made an account named RayFrostWikiManager.

I will present to you the two best scum games I have ever played, by my reckoning. Both of them losses, by the way.
Exhibit A

Exhibit B

I don't have any stellar town play to reference, in my opinion.

Note that I'm a far calmer and mature person than I was 6 years ago. And I also have not played a game of mafia in a long time because the last time I did I had the fun of having literally every single one of my reads get shot down by everyone in the game with the excuse of "it's their meta, so you're wrong." One might imagine how demotivating that is.

For the record, I never said I want to do meta play. I may look it over a bit when I get the chance though.

I was playing back in those days too and only recently started again. Don't worry, I know what it's like to be a loud, angry asshole (some will probably argue that I still am one).

[Kelvin Smith]

Spoiler: @RayFrost

All this mutter from you and kelvin about "it's so suspicious how convincing rayfrost is" bothers me significantly. Because it's a

nonsense

argument. "Charismatic" is not an adjective that has an alignment.

That's not what I said. Your argument isn't convincing to me and that's my whole point. If I thought it was a sound argument, regardless of my alignment, I'd be voting Gamma right now. I don't, so I'm not. And furthermore, I never said that charismatic is an adjective that has an alignment. I'm saying you read like charismatic scum to me, as opposed to charismatic town.

Not finding it convincing and therefore not voting with me's not a problem to me. Acceptable difference of perspective.

If I knew you guys were scum, I could quote your behavior here as the perfect example of "scum trying their best to discredit someone town without actually trying to push the case because they don't have anything to work with"

Funny, because if I knew you were scum, I could quote your behavior here as the perfect example of "scum getting mad about 'getting caught for the wrong reason.'"

Also, what would you call it if you knew Mario or I were town?

If I were mad, perhaps so.

In mario's case, I'd call it lazily copying you.

In your case, I'd call it believing someone that has a differing opinion is suspicious because their opinion differs - I think Gamma's scum for the reasons above, you think he's town and disagree about what the things I noted mean. So I'm suspicious for arguing he's scum based off of reasons you don't think are valid.

See, you're argument here isn't unfair or entirely incorrect. But it's more that we disagree and I feel that you should know better. Like, the case isn't bad, per se, but I feel like there are extenuating circumstances to consider. I see the way you talk, act, and present your cases and it reminds me of me. I'm terrified of playing against a player like me because I have an overly high opinion of myself. It's actually kind of a compliment, in a weird way.

As a result, I tend to become automatically suspicious that players like you are trying to pull a fast one on me. I don't think it's ever happened yet, but I'm scared it will happen one day. I'm admittedly not completely rational as a result of these feelings. If you aren't confirmed town and we make it to LyLo together, I'll probably be even more suspicious of you. But I'll probably end up siding with you, because I won't let paranoia be my ultimate decision maker. For right now though, it's early enough in the game that I'm willing to let my paranoia exercise control of my decisions.

WIFOM by definition is worthless and to be discarded. That's why it's called that.

No, I know. But it can be hard for scum to get it out of their heads. And, in some ways, I feel like what I do gives PRs more freedom. By saying "Doc is probably going to protect these people," it may give scum pause to not take out the most useful people. And the protective players might then want to consider focusing elsewhere. It's almost like having two layers of protection. Of course, saying this now, scum may be more inclined to strike pro-town players. Which may make protective people more likely to protect them. And so on and so on. WIFOM.

[Kelvin Smith]

1790 is a bad post

What do you find bad about this post?

Kelvin - wants the day to end and doesn't care who gets lynched?

This is a misrep I'd say

I don't know if I'd say it's a misrep, but it's a gross oversimplification of my earlier stance and it ignores any of the recent stances that I've taken, so it's still not a great post.

So

You SR me, but say even if I am town it doesn't matter if I die?

It would obviously be better if you're scum, but if hypothetically I had to decide between you or any other player knowing both are town I'd lynch you.

That's bad

It's really not. A town flip is still better than two living townies, because it gives us data to work with. You've given us relatively little to work with and my expectations aren't high. Sorry, but I've literally seen you as conftown sit around and do nothing to help find the last scum. And while you're alive, you hinder our ability to utilize the Double Voter for better wagons. Mislynching you if you're town certainly isn't ideal, but it's not the worst thing that can happen or even a particularly bad thing.

[Kelvin Smith]

What data would my lynch give you if I flip scum. What data would it give you if I flip town?

I can't really answer that until it happens, since nothing happens in a vacuum. We have to consider the circumstances around the lynch, we have to consider who supported the lynch, we have to consider who opposed the lynch, and we have to consider the types of interactions you had. The point is, we'd have hard data. Dead, you're confirmed town or scum. Alive, you're a constant question mark.

[Kelvin Smith]

@mod: Tarkus and TwoFace need prods.

[Kelvin Smith]

The Ircher wagon's not happening in 26 hours. Please get that vote back on Wheme, Mario.

[Kelvin Smith]

Talk to me, Wheme. If you're town, then who is scum on your wagon? You claim it's a scummy wagon, but we can't all be scum on it?

[Kelvin Smith]

UNVOTE: WhemeStar

[Kelvin Smith]

Rest assured, my vote will be back. That's just to prevent a quickhammer before I can get some answers out of Wheme.

[Kelvin Smith]

Is there anything else you'd like to add or would you like to present a case for either of the two?

[Kelvin Smith]

Is there anything else you'd like to add or would you like to present a case for either of the two?

he doesn't do that. like he might quote posts or something but he's not going to case people. do you think he's scum?

Even just quotes are still something to look at, if he flips town. It's good to know who town suspect and why. Even if their thinking is faulty, it might trigger something. And if he's scum, then maybe there is something to parse from it too. Either way, words from him are worth more to us than silence.

As for whether or not I think he's town, I could go either way. At times he feels like indifferent town, sometimes like flailing town, and other times like flailing scum. Especially in his recent posting, he seems to oscillate between the latter two for me. I just want to know for sure.

[Kelvin Smith]

Are you going to help us lynch Wheme, Mort?

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: WhemeStar

It's pretty inevitable at this point. If honestly prefer a hammer sooner, rather than later. The sooner Day 1 ends, the sooner Day 2 begins.

[Kelvin Smith]

My bad, you learn my role and that's it

Yes, that's something. Process of elimination is extremely important. And it's really not the only thing we learn. I've already explained some of the other things we can learn.

Why are you suddenly so interested in surviving? You didn't care this much when you put yourself at L-1.

[Kelvin Smith]

This game is more enjoyable for me now I guess? Does it matter?

If I flip scum you don't learn any information on who is town/scum on my wagon
If I flip town you don't learn any information on who is town/scum on my wagon

You are lynching me to put me out of the game. Which is Bs

Yes, it matters. I'm trying to ascertain if you genuinely didn't care before or if you were just faking it when you voted yourself to make us think you were frustrated so that we wouldn't lynch you. What about the game has changed it to make it more fun?

You say it's bullshit, but somebody always has to die in these games. That's the bullshit fact of Mafia. Right now, you happen to be one of the more expendable players, while arguably the scummiest player is unfortunately not expendable.

And I think it's incorrect to say that we can't learn who is scum or town on your wagon regardless of your flip. I think that there are actually a few good clues for us to look at, which I'd rather not discuss right now, as that might make certain people behave differently.

[Kelvin Smith]

I am voting scum

Why are you so sure?

[Kelvin Smith]

WhemeStar, are you aware that your vote is on Ircher?

[Kelvin Smith]

Yeah

So you contend that the scum team is Ircher, PenguinPower, and MMM?

[Kelvin Smith]

Who's the scum team?

Do you expect me to know? It's day 1 I'm not calling out partners I'm calling out scum Reads and i lynch in the pool of scumreads. This "compromise lynch" is horrible

Are you saying all compromise lynches are bad or that this particular compromise lynch is bad?

[Kelvin Smith]

I can't speak for everybody else, but I'm not trying to lynch you just because I don't think anyone else can be lynched. I also think you've got a decent chance of flipping scum.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm busy/lazy right now. I feel like an Ircher lynch is still technically possible, so if you guys want to present a quick case for why, I might go for it. I really hate the idea of it right now though.

@PenguinPower & RayFrost: Can you get behind an Ircher lynch?

[Kelvin Smith]

Same question to BigYoshiFan.

[Kelvin Smith]

Yes. I've said so previously.

Yeah, I thought some of you guys had, but I also want to see who is currently active to see if it's feasible to get the votes there in time.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Ircher: Are you still around? We're gonna need a claim from you if you go up to L-1.

[Kelvin Smith]

Suddenly okay with another claim?

Nope, I'm definitely not. That's why I said "I really hate the idea of it right now though." But a lot of people I either townread or think have the potential to be town seem to prefer him to Wheme.

[Kelvin Smith]

I am

against

lynching ircher at this time.

Then I' strongly suggest you hammer soon, because I'm liable to change my mind. If Mario and I were to move over to Ircher, we'd pretty much only get a lynch if you and Yoshi came over to him too.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'll Lynch ge

Sorry, but that's a lynch I can't get behind right now.

[Kelvin Smith]

But you're only behind wheme lol

I said I could get on Ircher and asked for the restatement of the case. But the votes just aren't there. Plus, I hate having more claims. Ditto on all of that for PP.

If you move over, you're coercing me into a lynch that I actively disagree with.

Do you actively disagree with lynching whemestar?

I would be, wouldn't I? Not something I particularly want to do, but something I will do if there's just no choice.

The only reason I haven't hammered yet is I am hoping to hear something from tarkus / twoface before this day ends. It's important to me.

I'm guessing they will be replaced.

[Kelvin Smith]

Also, I don't actively agree with lynching Wheme. I just want to look for alternatives. I'm getting really impatient because I've been asking for a lynch for 27 pages and we're still on the same wagon we were. I think we got some good stuff from dragging things out, but I just want it to end already and I'd be super grateful if somebody just hammered sooner, rather than later (which they probably won't).

[Kelvin Smith]

The only reason I haven't hammered yet is I am hoping to hear something from tarkus / twoface before this day ends. It's important to me.

I'm guessing they will be replaced.

Does that mean the deadline would be extended?

Depends on the mod(s). I'd really rather not find out.

[Kelvin Smith]

Hmm what's it say when everyone is perfectly fine lynching me and there isn't any alternatives

That's not even an accurate representation of the situation. Mort and Gamma clearly don't want to lynch you. You're not Ray's first choice. Tarkus didn't scumread you, I don't think. Mario is only voting you because Ircher is a tougher lynch. I've stated that I have a couple alternatives and a hard scumread that I can't lynch. Misreprsentations of the situation like this are why I think you're flailing scum half the time.

[Kelvin Smith]

i think tarkus +2-face still need prods

VOTE: Ircher
all of this wagon hopping is making me sick

No, they were prodded.

That's because you keep going back and forth.

Look, I really don't think Ircher is a good lynch right now. We'd need to get him to L-1 and then he'd need to claim. And if his claim was a PR, we'd just have to all quickly switch back to Wheme (which, if he's scum, he'd definitely do at this point). So he's ultimately not going to end up lynched and if he's town, only scum stand to benefit. Personally, I think the Ircher wagon is much more likely to be scum-driven than the Wheme wagon.

[Kelvin Smith]

Personally, I think the Ircher wagon is much more likely to be scum-driven than the Wheme wagon.

This doesn't make Wheme scum. Or, frankly, Ircher town.

If it's a scum-driven wagon, then I'd say he's more likely to be town.

I'm like, kinda frustrated because the seemingly inevitable lynch is a townread and a few of the town leaders is campaigning against a lynch I think might actually be scum. But I'm not too motivated to start yelling at people to vote Ircher because... honestly idk if he's scum and I haven't even responded to his response to my 'case' yet. People TR GE for... some reason, and Ray Frost TRs Ircher because... GE was pushing Ircher?? Idk. I feel like town is actively trying to not lynch scum today, so I feel like, what can I even do

That's because there are a lot of factors at play here and "might actually be scum" isn't good enough. Townread or not, I really think you should consider the possibility that Wheme is scum and consider the consequences of an Ircher wagon if Ircher is town. It's about risk and reward right now, I feel. And the risk of an Ircher wagon far outweigh the chance of reward, in my eye.

[Kelvin Smith]

Fitz, what are your results?

[Kelvin Smith]

So probably voting fitz today. Especially if cop decides to cc the watcher claim.

I can see if there's a guilty on him, but why are you prepared to vote him before even seeing what he brings? We should give him a chance to prove his claim legitimate.

[Kelvin Smith]

So probably voting fitz today. Especially if cop decides to cc the watcher claim.

I can see if there's a guilty on him, but why are you prepared to vote him before even seeing what he brings? We should give him a chance to prove his claim legitimate.

He is still my top scum read and I don't believe the claim. I don't lynch claimed roles day 1, but we are now in Day 2.

Plus he didn't die

Yeah, but he's pretty heavily suspected, so if his claim's true, killing him seems like a wasted move when a mislynch of him is pretty easy. I'm not saying I think he's town, just that he should be given some sort of chance. Though I agree that if we've got a Cop, we should lynch him. That said, a Cop claim right now would be ideal.

Btw I haven't voted yet so clearly I'm waiting...

I didn't say you weren't, but based on what you're saying, it kinda feels like it's just a formality at this point.

[Kelvin Smith]

Okay, now that you've made your bullshit claims and it wasn't useful...

VOTE: havingfitz

I'm the Cop, I investigated fitz.

[Kelvin Smith]

Not sure if that's hammer. Doc me, if possible.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'll be officially requesting replacement at the end of the day. I'm quitting Mafia (probably permanently this time). The game just stresses me out and I have an addictive personality, so it distracts me from my real life obligations. I also just don't care for the atmosphere of Mafia in general (this isn't directed at any particular players, it's just my own personal preference).

That said, I don't like being a flake. If you've got any questions for me before I replace out, please let me know. I'll do what I can to add some last little piece of value to the game.

Will answer posts directed towards me and make some other statements in my next post.

[Kelvin Smith]

Alright then .-.
Also, kinda dumb to cop a claimed watcher, you know they're mafia

I didn't know. Only strongly suspected. I wasn't sure if he was a full Watcher, because I'm not a full Cop. He could've had a limited number of watches in him or been Even-Day or something. Recently finished a game with Even-Night and Odd-Night Roleblockers on the Mafia side, so I thought it was possible that something similar was going on for the Town side. Figured it would be the best bet to confirm my suspicions and see if he tried to give up one of his partners when he gave us results.

don't question it man we don't want the awesome bussing tactic to get roasted
also kelvin what was your result?

I have no result. I'm an Odd-Night Cop. I had this whole multi-stage claim set up in case there was a Roleblocker, but he's dead now, so it's unneeded. I'll explain the steps of my claim in my next post. I was really proud of how I breadcrumbed it.

Sorry to hear that KS

I'm planning to stick around the site on the social side of things once my semester ends, so I won't be completely gone, hopefully.

[Kelvin Smith]

Spoiler: My Breadcrumbs

Titus havingfitz *
Ircher
MortFeld
Transcend WhemeStar
TwoFace *
MarioManiac4
BigYoshiFan
Gamma Emerald
Priscila (replaces Tarkus)
NotTheRealPaul -Grey- RayFrost *

ChannelDelibird

PenguinPower
MMM *
Hikari Link

VOTE:

C

hannelDelibird because I don't think you know how to pronounce "Delibird."

Deli-bird. Boom.

Once

upon a time, I was inclined to agree. But n

o

w, I tend to be of the mind that it is pronounced the same way as "delivered," except with a "B."

Why tf not? He's a slight townread now.

Could you explain that? I'm having trouble grasping your reasoning. You don't ap

p

rove of putting someone at L-2, but you are fine voting a townread? I'm not saying I'm an expert Mafia player, but in

every other

game I've played, that's not how things have been done.

I was originally intending to vote the 11th player on the list on post #9 to indicate 911 (the US emergency services number, for those who are from outside the country). But then Yoshi stole my post, so I had to pivot to something else. I decided to breadcrumb with the first letter of the first word of the first sentence of my first post, the second word of the second sentence of my second post, and the third word of the third sentence of my third post. Technically, Vote was the first letter of my first sentence, but I decided to just run with it, since it was close enough and sufficiently subtle that I wouldn't be caught.

I anticipated that I might have to reveal my breadcrumb at several stages in the game, so I didn't leave any clues other clues in my first post, but I always had plans for my second and third post. The initial claim was supposed to be Full Cop Day 2, that way I could draw protective roles to me and get a potential roleblock on me Night 2 (when I couldn't do anything anyway).

Day 3 I was supposed to point to my second post and say that I was breadcrumbing that I was a One-Shot Cop, that way scum wouldn't bother to Roleblock me Night 3. I was still going to argue for protection though, with the assertion that my claim makes me essentially confirmed town and so I'd be valuable to keep around.

Day 4, I was supposed to reveal my results and let everybody know I had been an Odd-Night Cop the whole time. My third post was meant to be the final hint, which is why I specifically said "every other," to indicate that I could use my effect every other night. But then the Roleblocker got lynched and the necessity of that plan went out the window. And since I'm replacing out anyway, I thought it would be better to reveal my breadcrumb now, that way people could see why this isn't just a fakeclaim, but a plan that has been in the making since the beginning.

Also, one of the reasons I was trying to rush through Day 1 was because I just wanted to Cop fitz already, since I felt really good about him as scum.

[Kelvin Smith]

I should clarify that when I say "I'm requesting replacement at the end of the day," I am referring to real life days.

[Kelvin Smith]

Putting yourself and Kelvin as confirmed and throwing everyone as neutral, I mean like.... doesn't really mean much.

You're not wrong. It's pretty fence-sitty. But at the same time, he doesn't have a huge amount to go off of. Our Day 1 lynch wasn't ideal (we can probably try to glean some info, if we analyze it, but we could use more). The Night 1 death was on a pretty town player, so there isn't much room for speculation there. Day 2 pretty much didn't exist and there's not anything to glean off of people sheeping a Cop claim. Night 2 was again a pretty clear town player, so there's still not anything to speculate on. We might be looking at a game of Vote Count Analysis and Follow the Cop in the coming Days unless we have some sort of breakthrough.

[Kelvin Smith]

Tier list

PenguinPower, TwoFace, Kelvin Smith, RayFrost
MarioManiac4
Ircher, BigYoshiFan, MMM
Gamma Emerald

vote: Gamma Emerald

Yeah, I'm gonna need you to explain all of this.

[Kelvin Smith]

One comment: I think that the way that Titus replaced out was very sudden and strange and probably there was some infighting in the scum team, from this I expect that she was being bussed and was unhappy about that. I am looking at Ircher for the prime suspect here.

If I have to pick a team, it is fitz+Gamma+Ircher.

1. Please elaborate on why you think there was infighting.

2. Why is Ircher your prime suspect?

3. You don't have to pick a scum team. What is the purpose of naming one?

4. How did Gamma get in that mix? You have to explain that read too.

Priscila, can you explain to us how PenguinPower and myself are on the same level of townread as a confirmed town player (twoface, dead) and a player who's all but confirmed (kelvin smith)? Because I'm not seeing that.

Sorry it was my readslist from last night, I forgot to change. That tier is my townreads.

Yes, but why is that your tier list?

[Kelvin Smith]

Yes, I will explain as I have time! Please be patient

You take as much time as you want. Just be prepared to receive votes if you don't answer in a timely manner. If you make such an opportunistic-looking list, you've got to be prepared to back it up.

3. You don't have to pick a scum team. What is the purpose of naming one?

At this point, it can be helpful to me to think about possible teams.

That's not how you framed it though. You said it like somebody was requiring you to have a scum team.

I want to hear more of what Priscilla has to say (well, not me, personally, since I won't be here), but I feel like she's a good candidate right now, if her posting doesn't improve.

[Kelvin Smith]

I am genuinely confused as to how I can come out with my first content as a tier list and a vote and people call that opportunistic?

Working on an exam right now, so I can't go over what you said, but your reads are basically the safest reads possible, with the exception of PP. Gamma is one of the most scumread people in the game right now and your other three in the next tier have generally seen similar levels of heat as each other. So you've basically got a read list that allows you to pivot to any of the prime lynch candidates, at least half of which mathematically must be mislynches. If intentional, it's pretty much textbook opportunism. It also means that if you're scum, I'd probably be expecting PenguinPower as your partner.

[Kelvin Smith]

I am genuinely confused as to how I can come out with my first content as a tier list and a vote and people call that opportunistic?

Working on an exam right now, so I can't go over what you said, but your reads are basically the safest reads possible, with the exception of PP. Gamma is one of the most scumread people in the game right now and your other three in the next tier have generally seen similar levels of heat as each other. So you've basically got a read list that allows you to pivot to any of the prime lynch candidates, at least half of which mathematically must be mislynches. If intentional, it's pretty much textbook opportunism. It also means that if you're scum, I'd probably be expecting PenguinPower as your partner.

Why would PP be her partner?

Because he was the only one who really didn't seem to fit into that high-tier list. At best, I feel like he would be with MM4.

[Kelvin Smith]

You know, looking at Ircher's argument against PP, I don't particularly dislike it.

[Kelvin Smith]

At school, hiiiiiii!
Townreads: Gamma Emerald, Hikari Link
Scumreads: Transcend, TwoFace

These reads feel forced. I don't get the sense from this post that he has done the legwork to arrive at these reads, they feel as though they hang in thin air rather than come about as a result of having genuinely processed his thoughts about those players. Compare this to the way that MMM expressed his reads - he seemed to be doing the work "behind the scenes" to reach his conclusions, and I think these are crucial villager indicators.

Scum cannot go through town thought processes to sort their reads

, and I feel that is lacking here from BYF. But this is just one post that I am noting.

Sure they can.

You know, looking at Ircher's argument against PP, I don't particularly dislike it.

You mean from his readslist? Which parts?

Yes. Pretty much everything. Except maybe the last one he linked.

[Kelvin Smith]

You know, looking at Ircher's argument against PP, I don't particularly dislike it.

Honeypot.

Please explain

I believe I already did. Everything except the last post he linked weren't particularly bad arguments.

Sure they can.

I don't believe so. They can attempt to imagine what they might think, but they cannot have those thoughts. That's what separates evil from innocent - they already know the alignment.

On a purely intellectual level, then yes, they know who is who and arguably can't have true thoughts on the matter. But I think that somebody with sufficient levels of empathy can place themselves into the mindset of a town person and come up with reads that are essentially indistinguishable from town reads. I don't have the time to get into this deeper, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree if this doesn't seem plausible to you.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Mods: I request replacement.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Mods: I request replacement.

Best of luck with your life. I think you have a very pleasant attitude here.

Thanks. Good luck, everybody.

[Kelvin Smith]

I don't know if you have time - could you provide some final thoughts on Penguin? I know you agreed with Ircher, but some original content from you on that would be helpful as you have been in the game the whole time with his slot.

Sorry, I really don't have time to say much. I have slightly less than 2 hours to write a 3 page paper, so I need to get that done before the submission window closes.

ISO me to see what you can find. In general though, I think that ChannelDelibird placed his vote on me for a really bullshit reason. PenguinPower in general didn't look much better to me. I think I expressed some thoughts, but it was probably at least partly gut.

[Kelvin Smith]

Yeah, so apparently a week has gone by and a replacement hasn't been found for me, so I'm just gonna stick around and try to help the game before my inevitable NK.

Not sure if I'm going to read everything that I missed, but I'll think about it. I've been skimming the game since I left, but not with a critical eye. I'd appreciate if you guys could help me get up to speed with a few questions.

1. Whose idea was the mass claim? Cause that bothers me.

2. What are the current claims? There was one that really stuck out to me as suspect, but I can't remember it.

3. Can you guys give me a general summary of your current reads?

[Kelvin Smith]

Read my ISO, Kelvin.

I'm honestly not a big fan of ISOing people these days. The lack of context hurts it to a degree. But since you asked, I'll do it later.

Ircher is really hard to confirm now, though if his claim is legit, he's likely to die Night 3 or 4, depending on how scum want to play this. If they kill him Night 3, then I'll get a result. On the other hand, if they kill me, then they might have their kill stopped Night 4.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind lynching Ray today to confirm his results. Also because I just generally have no trust for him. But that's probably paranoia speaking, so I think I won't act upon it.

I could also see my way towards lynching someone other than Ray. There are few enough PRs with limited enough abilities that I think that all present claims could be legitimate.

If all claims are legitimate, I don't feel like the Mafia are extremely likely to have a role that bypasses Cop or Gunsmith. The entire town PR lineup is super restricted here. We've all got limiting modifiers that make synchronization difficult. I find it hard to believe that the Mafia also have ways to bypass our already limited investigative abilities. I'm not saying it's impossible (and I'm certainly open to counterarguments), it just feels very unlikely to me.

@Everyone: If there are still unclaimed PRs, now is probably the time to say something. Unless you are a protective role, then maybe don't say shit.

Assuming that nobody else claims, as much as I'd like to distrust Ray, I'm going to assume that all of the information is correct and only lynch in the pool of people who haven't claimed a PR and aren't cleared by Ray.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Priscilla, PenguinPower, Gamma Emerald, MMM, and BigYoshiFan: Please make a case for why we shouldn't lynch you and for who you think is scum among you 5.

[Kelvin Smith]

PP doesn't have a gun.

Oh yeah, you right.

[Kelvin Smith]

Well then, looks like we've tentatively got it narrowed down to 4.

[Kelvin Smith]

Well then, looks like we've tentatively got it narrowed down to 4.

Really now your slot is filled, I'm ready to lynch one of those four. This game is dying.
VOTE: BigYoshiFan

I hear what you're saying. And I think we've got it narrowed down pretty well. But I'd still like to take some time to make some useful contributions, just in case. I'm fine with people voting, all I ask is that before anyone puts Yoshi at L-1, give me a chance to do something useful.

I would actually be extremely surprised if mafia didn't have a way to counter the gunsmith here for the record. I think a doctor is far less likely than traitor here though because of fitz's flip.

Can you elaborate on why you feel this way? More regarding why you think they have a counter. I think I can understand why Traitor would be more likely.

[Kelvin Smith]

You do what you gotta do. If you want to talk to me, I'll be happy to engage you. Why me though? Is it just because of near conftown status?

Has anybody at all considered that my claim may be fake? Granted, I don't think my scum game is that strong that I could've faked that level of breadcrumb. But still, my claim seems to be universally unquestioned.

[Kelvin Smith]

Perhaps the real Cop or other investigative role is holding back to gather more info?

[Kelvin Smith]

Perhaps the real Cop or other investigative role is holding back to gather more info?

We have massclaimed. Why would they hold back when they could get a scum lynched and we have asked all to claim?

Because a counterclaim is a 1-for-1 trade that arguably gives scum more information than town. If I was scum, a real Cop would potentially be better off not counterclaiming, since he could spend several more Nights getting results. And if he ever got NKed, it would confirm me as scum anyway, so tha wouldn't be a concern.

[Kelvin Smith]

Welcome back Kelvin.
Whose claim is it that you found fishy?

It was Ray's. Before the massclaim was done, I thought it was suspect that we'd have two investigative roles and a protective role. And I thought it was convenient that he'd blow his load in the first two Nights and come back with no guilty results. But that was just based on an initial glance. I need to look deeper. He also may have been the one to call for it (haven't checked back to see yet) and that bothered me. At the time, the massclaim struck me as more likely to be scum-led.

Has anybody at all considered that my claim may be fake? Granted, I don't think my scum game is that strong that I could've faked that level of breadcrumb. But still, my claim seems to be universally unquestioned.

I have considered that, actually, but I never said anything about it since having thought for it for a bit hard bussing the roleblocker would have honestly been pretty fucking stupid.

That's what makes it so goddamn diabolical. You might not know this about me, but I have no problems bussing my teammates whatsoever. The only real risk I'd run is a counterclaim.

[Kelvin Smith]

Perhaps the real Cop or other investigative role is holding back to gather more info?

We have massclaimed. Why would they hold back when they could get a scum lynched and we have asked all to claim?

Because a counterclaim is a 1-for-1 trade that arguably gives scum more information than town. If I was scum, a real Cop would potentially be better off not counterclaiming, since he could spend several more Nights getting results. And if he ever got NKed, it would confirm me as scum anyway, so tha wouldn't be a concern.

A 1 for 1 trade benefits town immensely. And it is only 2 mislynches before LYLO. There are 9 players left in the game. If there is any unclaimed PR and they don't claim now, they get lynched later.

Meh. I think they are kind of weak. I'd rather get a better trade, if possible. But maybe I'm just greedy.

Anyway, I'm going to bed.

[Kelvin Smith]

The person who called for mass-claim was priscilla.

I had no intentions to mass-claim when I claimed.

Okay, that's fair enough. Like I said, I couldn't remember who initiated it. Not that it matters. I don't necessarily think it was that bad anymore. Though that might just be hindsight. At the time, I thought it was really bad to call for a massclaim when we had an all-but-confirmed Cop, no Roleblocker, and a potential Doctor lurking about. Honestly, thinking about it more, it kinda still bothers me. I might want to look at Priscilla a little more.

[Kelvin Smith]

Man, I hate you guys. Stop pointing out why my claim is so damn believable. I was trying for a long-shot gambit to get scum to counterclaim me. It wasn't going to happen, of course, but it was worth a shot. I just wanted to try some wacky stuff for my last game and you guys had to come and be all reasonable.

[Kelvin Smith]

For my clarification, you will be able to investigate tomorrow night. Yes?

Yeah, but that's why I'm pretty confident I'm dead tonight.

Has anybody at all considered that my claim may be fake? Granted, I don't think my scum game is that strong that I could've faked that level of breadcrumb. But still, my claim seems to be universally unquestioned.

I have considered that, actually, but I never said anything about it since having thought for it for a bit hard bussing the roleblocker would have honestly been pretty fucking stupid.

That's what makes it so goddamn diabolical. You might not know this about me, but I have no problems bussing my teammates whatsoever. The only real risk I'd run is a counterclaim.

1. So basically you're saying that from Ray's point of view, you should be confirmed scum, and vice versa?
2. As scum, how would you explain to town having survived another, say, 2 nights?
3. Assuming the lack of your death doesn't give you away, what results would you give after the scum roleblocker is a goner and you can't reasonably claim to not get results?

1. Nah. I'm saying that was my mindset when I first saw the claim. But looking at the full claim list, the setup honestly doesn't feel that stacked. Quite tame, honestly.

2. Scum are leaving me alive to make me look suspicious or some such bullshit.

3. Well, Odd-Night is pretty infrequent. I'd only have to give one or two more innocents or guilties. And I could always just lie to fuck with you guys.

[Kelvin Smith]

Don't do silly things.

Eh. Low risk, high reward. It could've worked if it wasn't for you meddling kids.

Well it'd just be rude to not vote him after he asked so politely!

I don't recall asking for that in the slightest.

1. So basically you're saying that from Ray's point of view, you should be confirmed scum, and vice versa?
2. As scum, how would you explain to town having survived another, say, 2 nights?
3. Assuming the lack of your death doesn't give you away, what results would you give after the scum roleblocker is a goner and you can't reasonably claim to not get results?

How does 1 follow from what he said?

I have deliberately taken it out of context.

To what end?

[Kelvin Smith]

1. What would you hope to gain from purposely taking me out of context? I understood you wanted my stance or answer, but what kind of answer were you looking for? What would have been indicative of alignment?

2.5. I could envision a world where a scum team would try a stupid gambit like keeping a Cop alive as a mislynch target. Though the point is kind of moot, since my ploy has been exposed. Unless you think this whole sequence of events has been me as scum pulling some really bizarre gambit.

I'm going to bed for real now.

[Kelvin Smith]

What did you want to discuss with me?

[Kelvin Smith]

I hope this interaction continues, because I'm fascinated by it.

[Kelvin Smith]

Meh, the interaction I was most interested in fizzled.

VOTE: BigYoshiFan

I could see MMM being scum. I kinda feel like it's more likely if Yoshi is town though. I kinda feel like both scum aren't just going to openly deny Ray's claim like that. I could just be stupid though.

I could see Gamma being scum if Yoshi flips town. I've been growing progressively more wary of him.

Probably couldn't see Ray as scum, but I'm known for being wrong, so whatever.

I'll probably end up dead tonight, so my Copping won't matter. If people want to do this lynch, I say let's do it.

[Kelvin Smith]

It was good playing with you guys. Good luck.

[Kelvin Smith]

I really distrust PP for some reason...

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm fine with that. Whatever happens happens. I kinda wanted to them to switch targets because I said that. But at the same time, I'm virtually unlynchable and I get an investigation tonight, so I'm way too tempting of a target.

[Kelvin Smith]

Man, I really do just say whatever the fuck I want, don't I? I'm not sure if zero fucks given or if I've got some sort of strategy.

[Kelvin Smith]

Anybody else want to say anything?

[Kelvin Smith]

nah is PP actually scum tho

Technically possible.

[Kelvin Smith]

You guys should tell me who to Cop and I will probably ignore the fuck out of it. Plus I'm totally gonna die. But just for shits and giggles, you should do it.

[Kelvin Smith]

It's a shit hammer, but to be fair, it's been a pretty shit game so far.

[Kelvin Smith]

Guys... Come on, guys...

[Kelvin Smith]

Nobody.

[Kelvin Smith]

Only fakeclaim was from Ircher. That everybody bought for... reasons?

[Kelvin Smith]

Gated Roleblocker though.

[Kelvin Smith]

Legit don't know if Mafia had another PR. We were never given that info.

[Kelvin Smith]

I love how Ircher was just obvtowned on setup lmao

Yeah, the lack of scrutiny on that claim annoyed me greatly.

[Kelvin Smith]

Have fun reading the dead thread, once it's posted.

[Kelvin Smith]

I don't want to diminish Ircher and MMM, but I feel like the loss was earned by town way more than the win was earned by scum. And I include all dead members of town in that.

[Kelvin Smith]

let me guess; at least ten pages of solid yelling, disappointment and rage

pedit: in that case it's the job of town to sort the fakeclaims. it was our job to sort out fakeclaims here as well

Mostly disappointment and annoyance, I think.

[Kelvin Smith]

lol mmm got caught d1 by myself and grey

You "caught" MMM as much as you "caught" me. Please don't act like you had absolute knowledge just because you happened to be correct.

[Kelvin Smith]

honestly though fuck me
i should have at least scrutinised ircher's claim
or at least not backed out from mmm there
like my iso this game is like a comedy and each post digs further into the hole

Yes, you should have. But you didn't, so don't dwell on it. Just let it be a lesson to you. May you do better next time. Also, I said this in the dead thread:

"Oh, the mods mentioned a mod error in the game thread, completely unprovoked. Must be unrelated to this really weird discrepancy in this claimed town PR's results."

[Kelvin Smith]

Yeah, you should've done that, Ray. There was literally no good reason not to No Lynch. That was probably the most egregious town error.

[Kelvin Smith]

I don't know why, but this fucking awful loss kind of makes me want to play Mafia again. Don't know why though. Like, I genuinely believe the game is a 100% pointless, time-consuming coin flip, but I still want to play for some reason.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm going to go back to not playing mafia for different but similar reasons to the last time I quit.

I don't know why you quit last time, but this is an extremely wise decision.

mafia is a terrible game and the only way people still play it is because it draws you back in, hungry to either fix what happened last game, or continue your great record from last game

That's not an inaccurate assessment, but I feel like there is more to it than that for me right now. It's like I'm trying to figure out a way to make the game fun for me.

[Kelvin Smith]

Than again, I also tend to be drawn to games I hate because I feel like I have the potential to enjoy them for short periods. Games like Pokemon, Smash Bros., and Minecraft are perfect examples. I keep playing them every few years, even though I don't really enjoy them.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm going to go back to not playing mafia for different but similar reasons to the last time I quit.

I don't know why you quit last time, but this is an extremely wise decision.

mafia is a terrible game and the only way people still play it is because it draws you back in, hungry to either fix what happened last game, or continue your great record from last game

That's not an inaccurate assessment, but I feel like there is more to it than that for me right now. It's like I'm trying to figure out a way to make the game fun for me.

Well what made it fun before?

Me being an asshole made it fun in the past. Now, I don't think anything makes it fun. I like some of the players, but hate a lot of the attitudes, even in players I like.

[Kelvin Smith]

So I was lied to in order to compensate for mod error.

Like I thought.

Not technically lied to. The action of roleblocking you was just delayed to a later Night.

[Kelvin Smith]

Hey, does anybody want to start up a hydra? I'm trying to think of ways to play without full investment.

[Kelvin Smith]

I would be okay with suffering with you.

Oh, for real? I thought you were gonna quit, but if it's you, I'm definitely down.

[Kelvin Smith]

Subject: Mini Normal 1908 - In the Recycle Bin (graveyard)

Now if only they'd stop and realize that it's suspect how much Ircher fought for that and actually reevaluate the gamestate with this information, rather than just continuing on with all of their incorrect assumptions, we might be able to get somewhere.

Pointing out such was honestly against my win con. But at the same time, I wanted to give town a shot at winning; I didn't want it to be that town lost because of a mod error that was wrongly handled.

Whether it was your intention or otherwise, it was arguably in favor of your wincon. By appearing like the voice of reason when town is getting ready to drive itself off a cliff, you'd only solidify the already ironclad townread everybody had on you. Sometimes the best thing that you can do for your wincon as scum is to play against your wincon.

[Kelvin Smith]

It came out the wrong way when I said it, but yeah, the claim was great and at least half the reason we won/I didn't end up having to bus you along with fitz.

This seems somewhat townsided to me as well. Double investigative is what seals that for me, since if neither investigative is killed they can have up to 3 clears on d3 - 5 on d4 (except not really since there's not even that many town left at that point) and having a second investigative is more beneficial to town than a doctor.

It's swingy though, because if either or both are killed before claiming, the town gets nothing.

[Kelvin Smith]

That's true. We considered you N1 but we decided Mort instead partially cuz I was suspicious that a protective would be on you.

Yeah, that was my hope. When the flow of the game is such that people think I'm obvtown, I try to be more brazen in hopes of drawing protective PRs on me. Or at least make scum think they might.

[Kelvin Smith]

@MMM: Why were you surprised that I was a Cop?

[Kelvin Smith]

I remember feeling that your play striked me as not coming from a PR, given how you "tryharded" as you put it. Should have probably disregarded it in hindsight.

Haha! Should've listened to me when I said I'm always a tryhard. Role or alignment don't matter. Though I don't really try as hard anymore. But when we started up this game, I still had that fresh zeal for Mafia. That quickly got killed though.