Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[alban]

Hi all!!

[alban]

Wanted to votefor arona but now i dont after seeing the wagon

[alban]

I suspect lunae.

[alban]

Hello- I noticed activity has been low this game so here's a strategy that could work;
Each day the Doctors that will be using their abilities the next night claim. When a doctor claims, one cop from that night should also claim. That way we can get a secure way to get our cops protected without risking the cops getting hung dry.
- Of course, this has a disadvantage in that the Mafia will know who safe nightkills are and even the identities of doctors. Also, if there is no cop, the doctor will have outed their ability for no reason.
So, what do you all think?

The only reason why i think lunae couldn't be scum is coz they posted this. But who really knows?

[alban]

VOTE: Sesq

Oh hey game finally started.

Huh? You were the last one to confirm, right? So that means you had not gone online until the day started, unless I am missing something?

Lunae is that flower with a face in your avatar Flowey?

Yes!

wait l2 fuck

UNVOTE: aronagrundy

Why are you so concerned about this?
VOTE: Sesq

Explain this plz lunae.

[alban]

i think you are

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This vote is kinda random n scummy

[alban]

why I dont like Seaq? or why Im leaning town on you?

I am not a Sesq alt!

this wasnt implied

It was! He referred to me as "you" while answering a post directed to Sesq.

Pls don't shoot anyone in real life

Well maybe people shouldn't be asking questions that make you have to shoot people in real life

it was never implied it was outside of the game

There are no guns in this game, so it actually was! If you refer to something that isn't in the game but is outside the game, I will think that you were talking about something outside of the game.

if you looked at his previous post he said that he didnt like me (sesq) and was leaning town on you (lunae)

seems pretty clear

to answer your second question, yes there are. when mafia kills it is almost always recognized as shooting, same with vigs.

i'm going to try and focus on other players now due to how irrationally irritated you make me.[/quote]
Presumptuous but townie

[alban]

and why would that be

Coz of your deductive prowess in 54

[alban]

how is that ai?

How is what ai?

[alban]

54th post dummy.

It's townie. Not town. I meant townie-sh. And my reads right now are gut reads. Can't explain. Plz don't go all 'yayyyyyy found the scum' on me. Yes, I can't explain. Butv that's but scummy. Ok now this post is becoming too defensive. Fking stop making me defensive.

[alban]

Ebwop
*But that's not scummy.

[alban]

sup

VOTE: gamma emerald

VOTE: aronagrundy

i think you are

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

VOTE: LunaeCinere

are you an alt

what else would it mean, gamma?

and yeah, maybe we should snipe from the inactive pile.

how about VOTE: Coop Sheep

VOTE: alban

6 pages, 6 votes.
At least I have my gut reads. You have zero clue.

[alban]

what else would it mean, gamma?

and yeah, maybe we should snipe from the inactive pile.

how about VOTE: Coop Sheep

wait l2 fuck

UNVOTE: aronagrundy

i think you are

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

VOTE: LunaeCinere

are you an alt

sup

VOTE: gamma emerald

VOTE: aronagrundy

this is fucking trash yo

there's no fucking reason


its like

ur an alt
votes

ur weird/scummy for voting because it was rvs

votes


boi

This is scummy. Also, your reaction to sesq was weird.
Has anyone played with hell before?
Hellfire, you realise I made the exact same post just a few posts ago?
He repeating exactly the same pt should convince everyone that I am not scum with him. I could of course be scum without him, about which i will convince you guys that I am not.

[alban]

Alright- I'm looking at the thread through the last couple of pages and I want to vote alban. He has a staunch refusal to give out comprehensive townreads and scumreads- things are "towny" and "scummy" but he's not willing to call out anyone town as town, to vote anybody scummy, or to do anything but hedge and make it look like he's being a Good Townie and reading the thread.
VOTE: alban

I wanna patronise the shit out of you.

1. If I am staunchly refusing (am I?), how's that ai? Why would a scum be "staunchly refusing" anything? In fact, if I am staunch about anything, more likely than not that I am town. In fact, since I don't think I am staunchly doing anything is exactly the reason why I could be scum, but unfortunately for you, you can't use that logic anymore. I am assuming this is exaggeration on your part to make you post worthy enough of a vote. And if it's that, I am really suspicious of you.

2. Things being towny and scummy rather than giving out scumreads and townreads: Again, how is that ai? In fact, since scums are the only people who know who's who for sure, I don't see how being less emphatic makes me a scum. I could still be a scum, but I am equally likely to be a townie who doesn't make wild guesses without evidence. There are players here who have played with me, so ask them for reference if I ever give my reads easily. I take my own sweet time to make up my mind.

3. Being a "good townie": Again, ask people if I am ever interested in being a "good townie". I really don't care as a town. The only thing you are correct about is that I read the thread, and that's solely coz I was prodded.

[alban]

Lunae, where have you disappeared?

btw, does scum have a daychat?

[alban]

*Do scums?

[alban]

Has anyone has experience of playing with hellfire? He is pinging me badly.

[alban]

No one likes me.

[alban]

I m going to vote between sesq, gamma, lunae and hellfire.

[alban]

I urge you all to vote for hellfire.

VOTE: hellfire

[alban]

Creature
Hellfire Missile*
Agent Sparkles*
NJAC
aronagrundy
Cooperative Sheep*
LunaeCinere

^ Bet all scum is in this seven. Even taking a random guess you got a near 50% chance of hitting them. XD

Townie

[alban]

I urge you all to vote for hellfire.

VOTE: hellfire

I know this, wagon hasn't even begun, but I am sure he is one of the scums.

[alban]

I don't know why i am a suspect.

[alban]

I protected NJAC last night. We should both be near-conftown barring another claim.

I dunno if it's such a good idea to claim.
There could be a possibility that the scum didn't kill anyone. I dunno if that would be a small possibility to rule out, especially in a game with 4-6 cops. The only way a scum gets some pass is on a kill-less night and 1. if they are claimed to be protected by a doc; 2. if the scum themselves claim to be a doc.

[alban]

I was N1 doc and saved Creature.
This is the reason why I was a bit suspicious of Agent's claim.
Although there could be 2 docs, for me it's unlikely that there could be 3 docs on N1.
I would like to lynch between Agent and Sheep.

[alban]

Where do you get your unjustified confidence lady?

[alban]

I was N1 doc and saved Creature.
This is the reason why I was a bit suspicious of Agent's claim.
Although there could be 2 docs, for me it's unlikely that there could be 3 docs on N1.
I would like to lynch between Agent and Sheep.

I just said that I played in a game where there were three n2 cops so it's possible

Yes, it's possible. But less probable.

[alban]

I was N1 doc and saved Creature.
This is the reason why I was a bit suspicious of Agent's claim.
Although there could be 2 docs, for me it's unlikely that there could be 3 docs on N1.
I would like to lynch between Agent and Sheep.

I would also like to point out that if you ctrl+f creature in alban's iso this is the only post where he mentions him

I didn't understand your point. Are you saying my claim of having saved Creature is unfounded coz I didn't mention him? Elaborate.
In case you want to understand why I saved them -
I didn't want to save any of these:

I m going to vote between sesq, gamma, lunae and hellfire.

Creature had the maximum contribution to the game (at least going by the number of posts) imo if one excludes the people I suspected. Given the fact that no one was killed, and assuming that all doc claims are true, there's a 33% chance that the scum targeted Creature. So, all in all, Creature turned out to be a good choice to save.

[alban]

Albany who would you vote at this juncture?

Would vote between hellfire, lunae, gamma, sesq > agent, sheep

[alban]

i wasnt talking to you paul

but i would policy lynch

due to this claim i am officialy CONFTOWN

until i am killed tonight / someone tries to challenge my 100% correct claim

No you're not. You just are so off-base believing that a random claim clears you that no one fucking cares.

I was N1 doc and saved Creature.
This is the reason why I was a bit suspicious of Agent's claim.
Although there could be 2 docs, for me it's unlikely that there could be 3 docs on N1.
I would like to lynch between Agent and Sheep.

Any preference there sport?

yeah, but if im not being cc'd im confirmed town

..snipped..

feeling most confident about alban

Explain the statements in bold.

[alban]

Albany who would you vote at this juncture?

Would vote between hellfire, lunae, gamma, sesq > agent, sheep

Wow
I thought you were scummy but this is just


OML

VOTE: alban

For the rest of the class, this is because he stated he doubted Coop/AS both being doc with him but is doing nothing to actually sort that lead.

It's not even 24 hours since D2 began. Cut me some fucking slack. I will sort it out in due time. Your haste in getting it going is disturbing. Keep doing it, and you will be at the top of my suspicion hierarchy.

[alban]

..snipped..
i am very confused
Basically, docs and cops are in this game, every one is either a doc, a cop, or scum. There can be no VT
However, it isnt a doc and a cop per night
Instead, it's randomized, like it could be two docs or two cops per night? Or does it go up to three? I don't understand this.
And then Sesq says something about being n3 doc and saying that anyone that CC's is lying? But then Aron claims that there can be more than one doc on N3?
And that CC's are useless because there can be multiples of the same role on the same night?
Did i get this? Was the reason why no one died due to a doc or to the mafia not nk'ing anyone? Do people do NKA? Does it matter when no one died?
What's the target pool/claimed doc? Why would it be a good idea to lynch all claimed docs? Wouldn't that just be a waste of a lynch and a town member?
Is Lunae town? Is Gamma town? Why did yall read Gamma as town? (or rather, why doesnt anyone see him as scum?)

So many questions, so few answers (or maybe i'm just stupid)

Since it's randomised, it could be any number of cops and docs on a given night. I am not exactly sure how the random number generator works, but just going by plain probability, the same number being generated thrice seems less likely than it being generated twice or once.

Sesq's line of thought has more passion than logic. I wouldn't bother about it if I were you.

As someone said, these are not really counterclaims, but just role claims. As you yourself explained, there could be multiple people with the same role same night.

We don't really know for sure why no one died. The most parsimonious explanation is that the target was saved by the doc (or one of the docs if all the claims are true).

NKA is an important step.

Three docs for one night is possible, but less probable, which means one of me, sheep and agent could be lying. If all of us are indeed docs, yes it would be wasteful and counterproductive. Which is why all pros and cons should be discussed.

Gamma is not universally townread. He is a suspect for me and for someone else too (I am forgetting for whom atm).

Lastly, do not think of yourself as stupid. Sometimes these games induce imposter syndrome, and it happens to the best of the players. Buckle up, and enjoy

[alban]

VOTE: Gamma

[alban]

Guys
Alban is very clearly trying to avoid the 3 doc claim situation. This suggests he has a very large stake in making sure he or another in the pool isn't lynched. I'd rather vote him since it's very clear he is scum no matter whether one of the other claimed docs is.

Gamma, you are either not paying attention to my posts or you are deliberately framing me.
Every single point in your post is problematic
1. I am trying to avoid the 3 doc claim situation:
ISO me on D2 and you will find I have been talking about it non-stop. Like here:

I protected NJAC last night. We should both be near-conftown barring another claim.

I dunno if it's such a good idea to claim.
There could be a possibility that the scum didn't kill anyone. I dunno if that would be a small possibility to rule out, especially in a game with 4-6 cops. The only way a scum gets some pass is on a kill-less night and 1. if they are claimed to be protected by a doc; 2. if the scum themselves claim to be a doc.

And elsewhere.
So, no, I am not avoiding the doc claims situation. I am voting for you for your unfounded confidence about knowing exactly who I am.
Also, it's so stupid to think that someone forced me to claim and that's how I have landed up in this 3 doc claim situation. I did it of my own volition. If I really wanted to avoid it, why would I claim in the first place? If there's really a scum in the other 2 doc claims, why would I jump into the fray and raise the stakes of successfully lynching a scum from 1 in 2 to now 2 in 3? Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool and I have no patience to explain it to them any further. Even that Mutton fellow who keeps saying I am a scum but only along with one more scum in there.

2. Large stake in not lynching in the pool:
Coz I am voting for you? That's not a good enough argument. Obvious conflict of interest.

3. "I'd rather vote him since it's very clear he is scum":
And how did you achieve this clairvoyance? Elaborate.

[alban]

Well, we now know there's one scum in these docs, though alban is the most buyable claim there (not the most buyable nightkill).

We know this?
How so - I'd be happy to lynch in that pool if so - but I'm pretty sure you don't understand the setup (or I don't). Clarify?

VOTE: Gamma

Gamma is currently one of three players least likely to be scum.
Vote better.

Think better.
If you don't believe the doc claims such as mine, how can you believe whom I or others saved? Why is Gamma (or any of the saved folks) least likely to be a scum? If I am scum, why can't I fakeclaim as a doc and pretend to having saved my scumbuddy Creature? Only if all 3 doc claims turn out to be correct, you can have some confidence in the people we saved to be town. Even if one of us is lying and is a scum, all the three people who were saved on N1 come under scanner. And actually, even if all the 3 doc claims are correct, there is still a possibility that the saved people could be scum coz the scum may have chosen not to kill anyone. This is less probable (coz the objective of the scum team at this point would be to cut our numbers down rather than play it safely), but still possible.

[alban]

Why is Gamma (or any of the saved folks) least likely to be a scum?

I consider it *highly* unlikely that scum no killed to the point I'm willing to wager the game on it.
At that point we have assured 1 town in the three. That makes that set of three objectively bad to lynch within (the same goes for the Docs, but there is the added benefit that one of the protected *scum* wanted to get rid of [amd also makes that player an unused PR]) that makes lynching within that set of three objectively the worst value call to be made at this point.

If I am scum, why can't I fakeclaim as a doc and pretend to having saved my scumbuddy Creature?

That is certainly a possibility - you could also be scum that fake claimed a town target - which again makes lynching in the Docs smarter than the protects, much less the rest.

I kinda agree with your first sentence, but your interpretation after that is messed up. If scum targeted a player that was saved, the doc claim that saved that targeted player is also correct. Which makes it equally bad to lynch within either of the pools. If you believe that docs' claims are fake, the people they saved need not be townie as well. Which makes lynching in either of the pools equally good or bad.

Does my stance make more sense now with that explained and not making up a value call of me not believing your claim for some reason?
Also, why were you so convinced I didn't believe your claim? Do you feel your claim sounds/looks false to people?

The point of writing 714 had nothing to do with proving my claim. I know who I am. You don't. Obviously you will be suspicious. On my part, I don't give two hoots. I was merely pointing out the logical inconsistency in your and others' arguments that Gamma and the other two are almost confirmed citizens. Coz they are not.

[alban]

Has anyone played with hellfire before? Is he usually like this?

[alban]

Down with fever. VLA till 10th.

[alban]

Clutching at straws, Sheep?

[alban]

I am not well so I am not gonna keep it long.
With the entry of two seasoned players in the game, I would have imagined the game would be heading in a spectacular direction.
If earlier the town was lost, it's not misdirected.
I think claiming is the worst and the stupidest idea ever. Unless of course it had to come from scum.
Between Vedith and Titus, I would be more inclined to vote for Vedith also coz he replaces Lunae - someone I couldn't trust before.
As sure as I may sound, I am not sure about this line of action, and I trust nothing dumb will happen under provocation or pressure, but I read Paul's latest posts, and got a doomsday feel. Paul, DO NOT REVEAL! End of discussion.
See you when better.

[alban]

*If earlier the town was lost, it's now misdirected.

[alban]

VOTE: Vedith

[alban]

I still dont buy it for the following reason:

Everyones' roles are laid bare open to be NK'd. It doesn't matter who's to perform which night. It's immaterial coz people will roleclaim once they have done their doc-ing or cop-ing for that night. Anyone who hasn't is the intended target for scum. This is exactly why I didn't wanna claim on D2. When the 1st doc claimed, I had asked them the reason why they did, but pat came the 2nd claim! And then I wanted to claim too coz I was not convinced about their claims.
Now it's easy to guess what the scum will do with us. They will keep us alive. The town will never know whether we are scums or townies until the rest of you lynch us which is exactly what a scum would want. Even if one of us is a scum, it works best to their advantage. If we hadn't claimed, scum would waste their NK on someone who has become a VT in effect, and that would be beneficial to the town.

So walk me through what happens when you divide the players in two heaps. I can see where this is going, but I still wanna hear you out. I think your strategy will flop, but walk me through it. There's of course the possibility that scum will get to know our strategy but that's a risk I am willing to take. I have not discussed everything I have on my mind. Guess everyone can make that decision for themselves, what to share and what to hide.

[alban]

I am back

[alban]

Vote for vedith/titus/sesq/gamma (maybe in that order).
Vedith and titus for coming up with the stupid/manipulative idea of claiming.
After being certain of the game solving itself after everyone claimed, now they aren't even sure what the fuck to do.
This is the point where i say, I had told you so.
Bloody morons.

[alban]

Can people cite their top 3 scums? It'll be easier to see who is one majority's mind.
My top 3 are: Vedith, Gamma, Hellfire.

[alban]

On*, not one.

[alban]

Vedith, who are your top 3 scumreads?

[alban]

Stop it. My head hurts.

[alban]

6 out of 13 players have replaced. This is pathetic. What kind of reads are we supposed to have when a large part of it is based on behavioural profile of players? This is ridiculous.

[alban]

why's Alban scum?
we can 1v1 if you wanna be dumb

Alban is scum because I hated some of his early day 1 shit and his current vote is terrible, especially in light of how close we were to deadline before we got an extension. From what I've seen so far, sesq is town and Alban is scum. There's enough shit floating around sesq right now that without intervention he's gonna be the lynch, so Alban can vanity vote all day long and not be on the wagon when sesq flips.

You are tunnelled.
If I am up for a policy lynch, the man that looks scummy is you dipshit.

[alban]

Sesq is town because his style day one
was to vote damn near everyone,
and that's not scummy when it's blatantly clear
it was to steer the game from RVS
but the smear campaign from Alban messed with that,
and sesq was left with a fickle few friends
but a fair few foes to demand his end.

So Alban pushing that behaviour
made him fall out of my favour.
But as for your rebuttal
I think you've missed something unsubtle-
He scumreads both Vedith and Titus just because they wanted massclaim,
But lame shit like that's the same as how scum can blame their next target-
Tunneling to set up their get-up for the lynch of the next day
while staying off the wagon to avoid the VCA.




This gimmick isn't even hard

Please illuminate us how massclaim has helped in taking this game forward, except creating additional 10 pages of posts. We were struggling for reads then, and we are nowhere close to a read now. Except even now morons like you don't understand that we have given the scum key information that they need to nk.

[alban]

well, I'm afraid meta works on some players
albans game is simple, there aren't many layers
meta doesn't have to have conf bias yknow
it does require more than 2 minutes of work to be efficient though

Made me laugh, although a bit simplistic analysis of my play style.

[alban]

Alban is a terrible lynch. Out of the 3 doc claims his was the most consistent the most obvious target and the most genuine.

I suggest jjh reads Albans iso, gets an understanding of their view in the game.
See they claimed to have saved Creature who looked pretty town previously and I'm pretty sure claimed last out of the 3 day 1 docs.

That reasoning alone buys he immunity from today's lynch.

However, you fuck nuggets are distracting the game just like C Sheep did so others can sit around and do nothing.

I'm okay with lynching away from Sesq because Sesq could just be lost town trying to not look defeated... but the fact that only 4 votes sit there suggest that this is Scum And we have both useless inactive town and Scum just avoiding taking a stance.

Now I'm happy with whoever said earlier they will vote if needed (sparkles maybe) but anyone not voting Sesq I want a town reason for not doing so, and anyone not voting or pushing doc, you need to start doing this.

Ok. Thank you!
To answer your earlier question about who is my top scumread, I would have to say Gamma. You would figure in it too. But maybe not anymore. You know the reasons (your predecessor and your idea of massclaim).
I think Sesq is too obvious a lynch coz of their behaviour, and that alone makes them lower in my priorities to lynch. Gamma is lurking. He doesn't play like that.
But if enough traction is needed against Sesq, I am ready to vote for them.

[alban]

I must clarify: at this point, I am resigned to the fact that I don't have good reads this game. And I am ready to go along with someone who is confident of their reads. Sorry guys, but I don't wanna replace, but at the same time, get this charade over with asap.

[alban]

Excuse me, but are you accusing me of being a fuck nugget who is distracting the game? I'm placing people here. I need to talk to people. And I'm absolutely not letting others sit around and do nothing because I'm going to talk to people in order to place them. We have time to talk and I am planning to use it.

Who have you replaced? Paul? I can't find it in the main player list.

@Mod, please update.

[alban]

I replaced Creature.

Do you want to talk about people who aren't you or people at specific points in time when they are talking about you?

Yes. let's talk about you. I should have let your slot die.

[alban]

Excuse me, but are you accusing me of being a fuck nugget who is distracting the game? I'm placing people here. I need to talk to people. And I'm absolutely not letting others sit around and do nothing because I'm going to talk to people in order to place them. We have time to talk and I am planning to use it.

Who have you replaced? Paul? I can't find it in the main player list.

@Mod, please update.

Diffusion

of

Power

Playerlist

jjh927

Creature*

Sorry, my oversight.

[alban]

I am not done sorting- just sesq is more of a priority for being sorted. If she's actually not around then we can do shit.


Vedith and Titus are town. The massclaim was a good thing imo.

I wholeheatedly disagree but Titus and I have different ideas on how to play this setup.

Titus wants to mass claim to give scum less places to hide which is good if she is Town.
If she is scum then it gives her a much easier time.

I in general don't support mass claim in the setup because it exposes Town PRs early and makes things a weird clusterfuck. Titus supporting it is NAI.

Vedith I want to see what he does with it.

Exactly! Finally, someone with a similar thought process.

[alban]

Tbh I'd say support for the massclaim is NAI regardless of who it comes from because I can also see merit in not doing it. But I think this is my preference.


Also if I am to believe you have literally never read Creature wrong and have innumerable games with him then am I to assume you are scumclaiming by reading him wrong?

No. You're scumclaiming by not asking how I soulread Creature so damn well.

You're leading all the questions with me having to assume you're Town which you aren't.

Again, yes!

[alban]

And this is why I hate replacements. Math has replaced into a slot I suspected.

[alban]

I have lost all interest in this game.
I don't want to replace so close to the deadline.
These are the following ways in which we could deal with that effectively:
1. Lynch me today.
2. Kill me in the night.
3. Replace me on D3.

[alban]

And yeah, I am sorry about this. I don't wanna blame anyone but myself. It's my inability to solve this game that's annoying me. I have literally zero reads. Dead weight.

[alban]

VOTE: Sesq

[alban]

Hammer Sesq and we'll get you back involved tomorrow. I think we all need a flip. If you still feel that way post flip, I will hopefully see you around.

VOTE: Mutton

No. Not another fishing expedition. Describe what you make of how the two flips in jjh and sesq. No lynching on a whim anymore.
I think clearly there is a scum or two on the sesq wagon, so lets take it from there.
I am ready to work at it although I have no clue at wat stage the game is.
Can someone please list all the claims made so far?
Vedith, you seem to have figured out the statistics behind voting in a certain pool. Given the two flips, how does that change the scene?

[alban]

My point wa exactly this about the claims. jjh wouldn't be dead if they hadn't claimed. Even less chance of killing someone who haven't used their powers in the night if people like I hadn't claimed.

Now that that ship has sailed, I want Titus and Vedith and other proponents of masslclaim to take initiative and lead the hunting. And the experienced skeptics should poke holes in their theories. That's the only way we are winning. There are 7vs 3 now. So there's still a fair enough chance.

[alban]

Since many players have been replaced, the replacements should read the whole game. At from the time that Titus and Vedith got into the game.
My suspicion is that at least one of them is a mafia coz they have been active and they have the experience, and yet they are alive. It makes me suspicious of them. If I were a mafia, I would kill them. The very fact that they are alive makes me doubt them.

[alban]

Since many players have been replaced, the replacements should read the whole game. At from the time that Titus and Vedith got into the game.
My suspicion is that at least one of them is a mafia coz they have been active and they have the experience, and yet they are alive. It makes me suspicious of them. If I were a mafia, I would kill them. The very fact that they are alive makes me doubt them.

I think you are wrong on Titus and she needs lots of hugs <3 <3 <3

Like give her all the hugs.

VOTE: Mutton

Because I have auto hug protocols enabled.

wtf is this?

[alban]

at least say why she needs hugs!

[alban]

Titus, do you think there's something fishy in the way Vedith is turning against you? You are coming across as non-committal right now.

[alban]

Vedith, I ask again. How do the two new flips change your calculation?
Why is Titus suspicious all of a sudden when you defended her quite strongly yesterday?

[alban]

I mean, why are you suspecting Titus.

[alban]

I was suspecting Vedith and Titus y'day, but Vedith, you were quite adamant y'day that she can't be a scum.

[alban]

Vedith-Titus squabble appears fake. I think they are a team.

[alban]

Let's take it in a different way, and maybe there will be less of a conflict between titus-vedith kelvin-math. Forget abt lynching in cops or docs or anything. Instead focus on sesq wagon. Sesq had claimed a n3 doc. There is definitely a scum or 2 on that wagon. I wish sesq was more active to defend himself. I remembered his claim seconds after i hammered, and have been repenting ever since. Drop all your theories for now, everyone. Humour me. Treat sesq wagon as the main piece of evidence and then tell me whom would you lynch from that wagon.

[alban]

Could someone list the claims in the order in which they were posted?
Also, did Math claim to investigate Titus and what did they find?

[alban]

Titus, I think the town as well as the wolves posing as sheep are rounding around to lynch you.
The best move now would be to stop engaging with people and start giving a defense.
If you are town, maybe your playstyle is making you a target here. If that's the case, change the style. You are likely to derive more support that way I believe. I am conflicted about you and I don't want another mislynch, hence this suggestion.

[alban]

Why did you change your stand regarding Titus?

[alban]

D1 lynch was

Commknight (doc).

Wagon: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul,

Sesq (doc)

, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere.

D2 lynch was

Sesq (doc).

Wagon:

MuttonChopMagic

, Titus,

Vedith (LunaeCinere)

,

NotTheRealPaul

,

Mathblade (Hellfire Missile)

,

Navy (Cooperative Sheep)

, alban

People on both the wagons are indicated in red in the D2 list. Confirmed townies are in green.

D1 lynch was achieved on June 2nd. Till June 1st, only 3 people were on it. Last 4 jumped on it in the last few hours. Last 3 on the D1 wagon are common in both the wagons. So, they obviously need more attention. In the absence of anything else, I would lynch in those 3.

Why did no one die on N1?
There are three doc claims, in the chronological order of claiming:
Agent Sparkles protected NJAC.
Cooperative Sheep (Navy) protected Gamma (itlepip)
I protected Creature. My logic is elaborated in 689. Basically, there were a couple of players I didn't want to save, and out of the players who were reasonable enough townies for me, Creature had the maximum contribution to the game.

I am assuming Agent Sparkles and Cooperative Sheep have both done their research and have given reasonable logic for why they chose their targets.
Even if they are fakeclaiming, the choice of their protection will not tell us much about the veracity of their claims. What I mean is obviously they will name those people whom they were TR-ing on D1. So it's NAI. ISO-ing both of them shows just that. Both of them indeed strongly TR'd their targets.

But the choice of target to save based on how much they contributed can tell us something. Gamma contributed a lot, so I can understand Cooperative Sheep's choice. But what's not easy to digest is Agent Sparkle's choice in NJAC. Sure they placed NJAC as their strongest TR, but NJAC's contribution to the game has been dismal. Saving NJAC has two main problems: why would scum target NJAC for Agent Sparkles to waste their only save on a player like NJAC and waste their one power throughout the game? Secondly, what difference would it make to the game if NJAC was dead? Almost everyone was worthier enough to save. Different people could have different criteria to choose whom to save, but I don't understand why anyone would save NJAC. They had placed NJAC and LunaeCinere as their strongest townreads. If I was in their shoes, I would choose Lunae any day (even though as alban I would never do that coz she was my SR), coz she had more of an impact on the game than NJAC.

So

Agent Sparkles

is another suspect for me.

So, my vote will be on one of these:

MuttonChopMagic, Vedith (LunaeCinere), NotTheRealPaul, Mathblade (Hellfire Missile), Navy (Cooperative Sheep), Agent Sparkles.

This is more than half the people in the game at this point , but I am working at it. In next seven days, I will have dropped further names from this list to arrive at my final name.

[alban]

Why did you change your stand regarding Titus?

I can only be scum if Math is.

This seems awfully derp clear straining. Like how could anyone read and not know that?

Also, why are you trying to put me on the defensive? O.o

I didn't read the portion when people were claiming or when Math claimed to have visited you and hence the lack of clarity on my behalf. I read just a lil while back about Math's claim.

[alban]

This is the final straw. I haven't done anything? Fuck off, Kelvin.

Mod, replace me.

[alban]

I overreacted.
It's Almost50's first game as a mod, so let's make it a good memory for them.

Mod, don't replace me.

[alban]

I still don't wanna play the game, but I won't replace out. It will affect the game for sure.

[alban]

Kelvin, what is your current opinion on people apart from me and Navy?

[alban]

Easy, Titus. I still need to go through my list of suspects. There's one week still.

[alban]

The speed of Agent Sparkles wagon is worrying.

[alban]

NO more votes on it before AS speaks.

[alban]

Hey people, can you please stop all the hyperbole and talk in simple language? Just say what you want without going into all possible logical scenarios. When I try reading through your posts, my head starts swimming.

Can you lay down your arguments in the form of:
Who?
Why?
What if they turn out to be not what you thought?

[alban]

Hey people, can you please stop all the hyperbole and talk in simple language? Just say what you want without going into all possible logical scenarios. When I try reading through your posts, my head starts swimming.

I mean, the problem is that you kind of need to consider all possible scenarios to evaluate the strategic validity of a plan. I'll try to cut to the chase though.

Can you lay down your arguments in the form of:
Who?

MathBlade

Why?

1. Because Math being scum means we also need to consider that Titus may be scum, which is important, because she's currently seen as clear-ish.

2. Because my interaction with Math feels to me like I'm interacting with scum. Not even attempting to be reasonable and only launching attacks on me, rather than even discussing my proposal.

3. Severe Titus buddying that I'm not sure is because Titus is also scum or because Titus is town and Math wants to manipulate her.

What if they turn out to be not what you thought?

The beauty of my plan is that it legitimately does not matter if I'm wrong for three reasons:

1. Math's power is spent and Math is thus mechanically useless.

2. Math flipping Town confirms Titus as town, meaning we can safely dedicate protection to her, hopefully ensuring we'll go into MyLo (and by extension, LyLo) with 100% confirmed town.

3. If I'm wrong, it destroys my current tunnel vision that I have on both Math and Titus, making me able to focus better on cooperation. As it stands now, I'm too riled up by my own confirmation bias to fully cooperate with others.

Appreciate the deconstruction of thoughts.

I am not convinced by your Why's:

1. If math is scum, it brings Titus to null. They then are as scummy or as townie as anyone else, their budyying with Math notwithstanding. In fact, it is likely that scum!Math would not mention their scum partners name as a night target. So, if Math is indeed scum, it is less likely that Titus is scum. In any case, how can Math-Titus association be a reason to lynch Math? This could be a reason for policy lynching Math, but still not a good enough reason.

2. Your interaction with Math is a good enough reason for you, but not for anyone else unless you elaborate specific points that we cant verify by going to those specific posts. Till then it's your word against Math's.

3. Yeah possible, but it's also possible that he is town, copped her in the night, and that's why this buddying. I can understand you are skeptical about it, but I can't understand how you can give that as a reason for lynching Math.

Now, coming to your points on what-if scenarios:

1. Yes, Math's power is spent. But at this point, numbers are as important, if not more, than power.

2. Yes agreed, but then we will be killing a town to ensure the townie status of another town, and I don't know if I wanna do that. But this is the most pursuasive argument you have.

3. Yes, and it's a good enough individual strategy but not a good group strategy. Each one of us may suspects but we can't follow this strategy to lynch those people.

[alban]

*unless you elaborate specific points that we can verify by going to those specific posts

[alban]

*Each one of us may have certain individuals as suspects but we can't follow this strategy to lynch those people.

[alban]

Having said that, Mathblade could still be a good lynch. But not for the reasons you mentioned.

[alban]

It's perversely delightful to see how the sheep take refuge under rc's wings in the storm he himself cooks. Even if I myself am the target.

I have had such terrible memories of playing with him, that too as a scumbuddy, that I decided to actively avoid him for a considerable time. Rc, I expect to be extended the same treatment. Since the game is closer to the end than the beginning, i am not replacing out, even though I am tempted to.

I am surprised how certain players who do display signs of free will and thoughts are consumed by rc. Kelvin, i am especially disappointed in you praising rc. The player like you who has been dispensing words of wisdom on not being taken over by reads and meta, cant see through rc's behavior and style? How come you are not advising them? And what about you titus? Seriously, you guys don't find anything disturbing in the way they have just come in the game and kicked a storm?

[alban]

Also, forgot to mention. It's either rc or me this round. Voting happens in the two of us.
VOTE: rc.

[alban]

Alban between then and now I asked you if you were okay if I joined a game and you said you were totally fine with it.

I said ok fur that game coz we had already signed by the time you unleashed shit. The bitterness hasnt gone. It's better to stay away.

[alban]

No. But let this be our last game together.

[alban]

-Alban confirmed scum
-Gamma entrance terrible

It will be nice if you give reasons with your confirmations.

Mod, replace me.

[alban]

-I don't think Titus is scum.
-I'm town.
-I believe you're town, Kelvin.

So assuming navy flips town, yes Alban is in fact confirmed scum. If he doesn't then Alban is town.

But Titus's reads are blinkering hard rn

So there's that.

So, his reasons for me being scum are that someone else is town. That's a weak reasoning. If he's doing that, that's nowhere close to a confirmation. How can a seasoned player like you not see that? Instead of being charmed with his entry like you have been, you should ask him questions such as why does he townread you. This is important since the whole premise of declaring me scum is based on 3-4 of you being town, you all should question him. I was his scum!partner and the only way you ride that tide is by questioning him. He's a bully and doesn't like resistance. If you are gonna be meek and go ahead with his plan, you are gonna be doomed. As a town, he is not effective coz he gets lynched/nk'd. As a scum he is very effective coz he brings a fascist vibe to the game which turns everyone into sheeps. If he is a town, you should never listen to RC. Coz he goes by instincts. If he is a scum, you should never listen to him. Coz he will swoop in on any display of weakness and turn the sheeps against any resistance. Never listen to him. Period.

[alban]

Gamma, are you back in the game?

[alban]

-I don't think Titus is scum.
-I'm town.
-I believe you're town, Kelvin.

So assuming navy flips town, yes Alban is in fact confirmed scum. If he doesn't then Alban is town.

But Titus's reads are blinkering hard rn

So there's that.

So, his reasons for me being scum are that someone else is town. That's a weak reasoning. If he's doing that, that's nowhere close to a confirmation. How can a seasoned player like you not see that? Instead of being charmed with his entry like you have been, you should ask him questions such as why does he townread you. This is important since the whole premise of declaring me scum is based on 3-4 of you being town, you all should question him. I was his scum!partner and the only way you ride that tide is by questioning him. He's a bully and doesn't like resistance. If you are gonna be meek and go ahead with his plan, you are gonna be doomed. As a town, he is not effective coz he gets lynched/nk'd. As a scum he is very effective coz he brings a fascist vibe to the game which turns everyone into sheeps. If he is a town, you should never listen to RC. Coz he goes by instincts. If he is a scum, you should never listen to him. Coz he will swoop in on any display of weakness and turn the sheeps against any resistance. Never listen to him. Period.

I'd first like to point out that despite my join date, I'm not a seasoned player. I played for maybe 6 months in 2011 and I've been back for maybe 3 months.

That's also not super weak reasoning, it's process of elimnation. Granted, it's PoE based on reads, which are inherently inaccurate. But even though reads are bad and usually wrong, it doesn't change the fact that most Mafia players swear by it.

If from his perspective, he, Titus, and I, then either you or Navy must be scum. Like, that's just a fact if his assumption is true (which I'm not saying it is). I said that I do not support calling you confirmed scum and I'm not prepared to call any other players confirmed anything (even Math isn't confirmed scum). But regardless, he is a player that I believe can help me get results, so I'm more than willing to work with him for as long as that remains true.

That said, I'm not willing to let him treat you or any other player unfairly. If his argument is compelling and/or I can't find a more strategic way to do things, then I may go along with him at times, but I will personally never be party to him dictating the entire course of the game. I'm not going to be meek and I'm not going to be bullied. Not by him, not by anybody.

As for asking him why he townreads me, I'd have to ask that of every player. The majority of players townread me and I can understand it to a degree, because I've been on a real roll this game. I don't have any actual desire to question him or anyone on their reads though, since I don't care about reads, since they're dumb. The nature of this setup makes it mostly solvable through a combination of good strategy and probability, so it's one of the few games where I don't have to concern myself with other people's biases and faulty thinking.

I think that you're saying some really harsh stuff about RC. To me it seems that regardless of alignment, he has a way of getting people to do things. You might call it bullying or fascism, but I don't think that's a completely fair assessment. He's got no formal authority, so he's not a dictator. And while he's probably a bit too forceful, he's not unlikable. I'm not sure how willing he is to compromise, but based on how he dealt with Titus, I'd say that his willingness to cooperate is at least decent. Titus was the inflexible one in that exchange, while RC was willing to concede more than I think even I would have. But that's just my assessment having never played with him before.

It looks bad on you coz now you are contradicting yourself.

If RC's whole argument of why he finds me scum is based on PoE -> which is based on his reads -> which you do not believe in principle, how does strategy or the capacity of bringing in results help town!you? The whole premise should be built on falsity according to you. I don't understand your U-turn regarding this.

"As for asking him why he townreads me, I'd have to ask that of every player":
Yes you should, but then no one is actually using their townread of you to suspect others, whereas RC is doing exactly that. If the whole case against a player like me is based on someone clearing you, the least you could do is inquire with that person why they are townreading you.

Also, I don't think you are as widely townread as you may think.

"I think that you're saying some really harsh stuff about RC":
Yes. But that doesn't make it baseless. In any case, my assessment of him is not important. Since you haven't played with him before, which I kind of guessed, it was worth warning you. As long as you are aware of the dangers of buddying with RC, you will be fine. RC is a tour de force, but his high skillset is not impenetrable. He has great motivational skills, but he is low on logic. So, if you ask him certain kind of questions, he will be in a tight spot. Of course, he will turn it around, but since you seem like a player who believes in logic and strategy, you would know that he is evading. I don't have the thick skin required to do this coz I get riled up easily as you experienced yourself a while back. But someone with a thicker skin should be doing that.

[alban]

Gamma, vote for RC.

Mod, don't replace me.

This is becoming a joke now. Sorry about that. I have difficulty controlling myself and quite often say or do things on the spur of the moment

[alban]

Vote Math based on what? I just showed you few pages back that almost all your reasons for voting Math are unsubstantiated. Yes, I would have voted for Math since they were one of the suspects for me, but so was Agent Sparkles. And RC replacing AS makes him my top priority to lynch right now. Unless you can show me why Math is a better lynch than AS/RC. Why not lynch RC and cop Math or me? That could work too.

[alban]

Alban you haven't given a reason that I'm scum besides describing my playstyle in general in very, very negative terms and calling me scum.

In what way are you saying that my play in this game is specifically indicative of my scum play rather than just my play in general?

And furthermore your single experience with me as scum is EXTREMELY unreflective of my general scum play.
I set out that game specifically to mimic what GigabyteTroubadour specifically thinks is my town meta as much as I could.
Like if that game is your context for my scum meta, then your reads are going to be ass backwards most of the time.

Alban- if we lynch Navy and she flips scum, what's your read on me?

You may have forgotten, but I have not, that we have played multiple games together.
My assessment of you also doesn't stand alone. In the games where you were town, you have been lynched/day-vigged on D1.
No, I am not saying you are a conf!scum. I am saying this: You have an extremely confident playstyle which is foolhardy as a town coz it misdirects a fair proportion of the players, and is extremely dangerous as a scum. This style of play coupled with Agent Sparkles being on my scumlist, I am fine with lynching you. We were proceeding slowly to the deadline before you came in, but now I think because of your playstyle, we are lost again. Worst is there will be some players who will be swayed by your apparent confidence. I prefer slow > being lost > being a sheep.

Since I have played with you as a scum where the hallmark of your scum!game was to incriminate your scum!partners to gain towncred, I am not even going to answer the point about Navy. But anyone who is interested in looking at the Navy-RC association should just ISO RC and look at the arc of your Navy read. You started off by calling them conf!town and now you are ready to lynch them. You have no reference points coz you replaced in so late, you do not give any reasoning why you think what you think, and my experience with you as a town is that your reads are not bang on and you don't learn from your mistakes. When you make a wrong move as a town by lynching a townie, you come back the next day by discrediting that townie and how they deserved to be lynched. All this would be scummy on any other player, but it never sticks on you because of your level of confidence. My observation is that people are more taken in by confidence than by logic, which works in your favour. Hell, even me who is kinda the flagbearer of anti-you this game, is thinking inside, 'what if RC is correct?', and that itself is an indication of your power. So, I have to bend over backwards to not be queuing in the line. To wrap up, I am not sure who you are, but I lynching you would benefit the game regardless of your alignment.

[alban]

Vote Math based on what? I just showed you few pages back that almost all your reasons for voting Math are unsubstantiated. Yes, I would have voted for Math since they were one of the suspects for me, but so was Agent Sparkles. And RC replacing AS makes him my top priority to lynch right now. Unless you can show me why Math is a better lynch than AS/RC. Why not lynch RC and cop Math or me? That could work too.

No, you didn't. I responded and most of your reasoning was weak. Math is the optimal choice, hands down. I'll explain further in my strategic framework, but it's the only lynch that gives us other information, so it's most likely the lynch we're going with. We're probably going to be mislynching a lot going forward, if my plan works, but each one is going to hurt scum more than it helps them. The basic premise is lynching Cops with Innocents to get confirmed town, then Docing them so that scum have to kill within our unknown pools, giving us confirmed data and deterring fakeclaims.

That's your perception and you are entitled to that, but according to me, out of the six points you mentioned in 2055, there was only one decent point (detailed in 2057). Yeah, Math could be scum, but not for the reasons you mentioned. In fact, your hard push on Math for reasons so weak pushed me away from voting for Math.

[alban]

It's looking like I might be able to get RC, alban, Gamma, Paul, and me. Means I only need Navy, Vedith, or NJAC for the hammer. If a no lynch happens, I'm considering anyone who didn't vote Math to be scum and voting exclusively in that pool for the rest of the game.

No you won't get it. Reasons are flimsy.

[alban]

I meant my vote.

[alban]

And yeah, feel free to vote for me since you would vote in the pool of people who wouldn't vote for Math. If this is the strategy you are talking about, needn't have taken this long.

[alban]

The only way my vote goes on Math is if someone makes a compelling case on them. And it's likely it's not coming from Kelvin.

[alban]

Kelvin, I was waiting for you to present a case on Mathblade. It doesn't help that you keep touting your case on Math as a strong case. It might be so for you, but it's not for me, and if you want my vote on Math, you need to revise your case. I am not averse to their lynch even without your reasons coz they have been on my radar, but since your whole plan seems to rest on Math lynch, you should try harder to present your case. Right now, the attitude is take it or leave it, which isn't helping anyone.

Titus, you need to present an equally strong case on why not Math.

Both of you have done it in bits and pieces, but it's scattered. So if you could present it here in a concise manner, it will help.

[alban]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

[alban]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

1. Pushing a bad lynch doesn't imply scum. There were easier lynches and we've both pushed the hell out of this lynch. But notice how both the Math and Navy wagons have stalled out. To me, that's indicative that maybe scum legitimately don't like either. And you pushing for inherently bad Coppings strengthens RC's case on you.

2. Likewise, Titus can make poor decisions and still be town. It's true she's defending the hell out of Math and that's suspect. But this Navy wagon stalling out is also suspect.

Okay. If I am going to be a suspect regardless of what I do, I am not gonna vote for Math/Navy. You can take support from other parties. My vote is fine where it is. At this point in the game, I will play based on my beliefs rather than yours/Titus's/RC's. I was ready to vote for Math, but you are very cleverly safeguarding your interests either coz of your playstyle or coz you are a scum.

My two cents: My suggestion to the cops will be regardless of who turns out to be what at the lynch's end, they should cop Kelvin/Titus/RC tonight so that there's at least one confirmed player who can drive the game. These three are being active and giving out a vibe that they know what they are doing. Till I am not sure about their alignment, I can't trust their plan. I think the hierarchy should be RC>Titus>Kelvin, and then the town should tomorrow do more or less what the confirmed townie feels is right. The danger in copping inactive players or players who are not in a position to drive the game is that even if you know their alignment, so what? Like if you cop me, and know that I am town, how is it going to affect the game? At this point, it might be good for everyone to know the alignment of a driven player rather than for a driven player to know the alignment of an inactive one. That way even the driven player will derive more traction.

[alban]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

Don't worry about it. I rather have someone calling me dumass rather the doling out patronising words of wisdom.

[alban]

Titus, if you are gonna be obstinate about lynching me, I can just replace out

[alban]

whoever (RC?) said cops should check cop claims makes sense. it clears two people in one go.
the cop should visit Math in the night. for that, we need him alive.

[alban]

Titus, if you are gonna be obstinate about lynching me, I can just replace out

Hey, alban. Now you're the one being a dick. I'm serious.

It was a joke.
Going by that logic, are you being a dick for posting this?

That's your perception and you are entitled to that

, but according to me, out of the six points you mentioned in 2055, there was only one decent point (detailed in 2057). Yeah, Math could be scum, but not for the reasons you mentioned. In fact, your hard push on Math for reasons so weak pushed me away from voting for Math.

That's your perception and you are entitled to that.

When all is said and done though, I'll prove my reasoning to be the best. And if you don't want the Day to end in a NL, you're probably going to have to come around to Math.

[alban]

Titus, if you are gonna be obstinate about lynching me, I can just replace out

Hey, alban. Now you're the one being a dick. I'm serious.

It was a joke.
Going by that logic, are you being a dick for posting this?

That's your perception and you are entitled to that

, but according to me, out of the six points you mentioned in 2055, there was only one decent point (detailed in 2057). Yeah, Math could be scum, but not for the reasons you mentioned. In fact, your hard push on Math for reasons so weak pushed me away from voting for Math.

That's your perception and you are entitled to that.

When all is said and done though, I'll prove my reasoning to be the best. And if you don't want the Day to end in a NL, you're probably going to have to come around to Math.

I understand that it was a joke. But it was a joke making fun of the fact that I'm so frustrated by the people in this game, that I'm prepared to replace out so that it can move forward. You'll notice I never made fun of you when you wanted to replace out. So yeah, it's kind of a dick move on your part.

Oh no, you misunderstood me completely buddy. I would never ever make fun of someone, especially when they were feeling down. Believe me when I say that. It wasn't meant for you, but for Titus. And I used your words coz we were saying the exactly opposite things to Titus. You were talking about Titus's no lynch stance, and I was talking about his stance on lynching me.

[alban]

Alban, who is the scum doc? What is your Navy read?

He and Math are both suspicious, as are RC, Vedith, Paul and Kelvin.

[alban]

Alban

For the last time, it was a joke.

[alban]

alban flips scum, math has spent the game calling him scum but prevented him from being wagoned, alban spent the entire game calling your sibling scum but has been defending them now that they're a real wagon

and that doesn't make you reconsider your position at all? that's called confbias and that's why I'm not taking your mathblade seriously any more than you're taking mine seriously.

At least ask questions before you misrepresent me.
I said, and repeatedly so, that I find Math scummy. But not for the reasons Kelvin proposed and wanted to lynch Math.
The only time I said no to any wagon was when Kelvin refused to improve their reasoning for lynching Math.
I don't wanna make the same mistake I did with Sesq when I gave in to the wagon and hammered Sesq. If you can't convince me with logic, why should I vote for someone just coz you are asking me to?

[alban]

if math wants to be town they can put their vote where their mouth is.

This is kinda wringing people's necks for getting a lynch.
Can you present your case on me so that I can logically tear you apart?
Your starting point, or within a few pages, when you entered the game was lynching me. Why? What do you have on me?

[alban]

alban flips scum, math has spent the game calling him scum but prevented him from being wagoned, alban spent the entire game calling your sibling scum but has been defending them now that they're a real wagon

and that doesn't make you reconsider your position at all? that's called confbias and that's why I'm not taking your mathblade seriously any more than you're taking mine seriously.

At least ask questions before you misrepresent me.
I said, and repeatedly so, that I find Math scummy. But not for the reasons Kelvin proposed and wanted to lynch Math.
The only time I said no to any wagon was when Kelvin refused to improve their reasoning for lynching Math.
I don't wanna make the same mistake I did with Sesq when I gave in to the wagon and hammered Sesq. If you can't convince me with logic, why should I vote for someone just coz you are asking me to?

Because you allegedly also think that they are scummy? Like, I don't even understand how this is a fucking question unless you are taking a page out of my book and saying that all reads are always bullshit.

Kelvin, if you have a question, shoot. Otherwise, stop answering for other people.

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

[alban]

Okay. If I am going to be a suspect regardless of what I do, I am not gonna vote for Math/Navy. You can take support from other parties. My vote is fine where it is. At this point in the game, I will play based on my beliefs rather than yours/Titus's/RC's. I was ready to vote for Math, but you are very cleverly safeguarding your interests either coz of your playstyle or coz you are a scum.

My two cents: My suggestion to the cops will be regardless of who turns out to be what at the lynch's end, they should cop Kelvin/Titus/RC tonight so that there's at least one confirmed player who can drive the game. These three are being active and giving out a vibe that they know what they are doing. Till I am not sure about their alignment, I can't trust their plan. I think the hierarchy should be RC>Titus>Kelvin, and then the town should tomorrow do more or less what the confirmed townie feels is right. The danger in copping inactive players or players who are not in a position to drive the game is that even if you know their alignment, so what? Like if you cop me, and know that I am town, how is it going to affect the game? At this point, it might be good for everyone to know the alignment of a driven player rather than for a driven player to know the alignment of an inactive one. That way even the driven player will derive more traction.

Alban has been calling Math scum the whole game.
but when it looks like it might happen he backs down, specifically calls for a suboptimal cop to be made in the docs, demands not to be copped, calls for cops to NOT target mathblade
and frankly him calling for the cop in a way that it's obviously going to wind up hitting me makes me feel like he's just decided that I'm getting shot tonight no matter what.

so no I'm not putting words into Alban's mouth like you claim: these are their actual posts. but you're ignoring it because it doesn't fit your narrative about the game.

Do not misrepresent me to suit your narrative. This is not what happened. Go read the posts leading up to that. I have been asking Kelvin repeatedly for improving his case on math. He refused to budge coz he thinks he has the best case on Math. I don't think so. We disagree. I have repeatedly said, that Math is a good lynch, but there are two things that make me not do that. One coz a lot of people (RC, Kelvin and Paul) whom I find scummy are after his life. Secondly, the one person I mildly tr (Titus) is fervently in his favour. So it reminds me of the Sesq scene. And I dont wanna do that.

[alban]

That's a major stance change actually
Alban I'd like an explanation.

Explained.

[alban]

And he gets a chance to explain. That's how this works

Thank you for reminding everyone the basic rule of any group discussion.

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

You find 6 people scummy in a 3 scum game with 10 people alive. So, what? You're just going to shut down all cooperation with every player or...?

Yes, I do. And since I am town, it's natural to not know anything apart from my own identity and hence be a skeptic about everything everyone says!

[alban]

The lynch is alban. Simple

The sheep has an opinion now.

[alban]

Creature was town day 1 and flipped town. Alban is the most believable town out of the 3.

Thank you. I feel a bit vindicated.

[alban]

a cursory inspection of the votecounts will show you that creature was a wagon for much of d1 and there were other people expressing their support for the wagon on D1.

he wasn't the nightkill in any universe.

So you never read day 1. cool.

Exactly. This guy never reads, gives false logic, misrepresents me, and wants to get away with it.

[alban]

if you're going to throw shitty shade at me then I'll assume that you're scum and vote you instead.

So, everyone who disagrees with you is a scum?

[alban]

Yeah sure. Called out on bullshit, can't handle it

This is what I meant about RC bullying and not being able to handle logic.

[alban]

why is he lurker scum and not lurker town

i mean he fucking replaced out maybe he was busy irl like he said he was

So, then why was he saved? Why would a one time doc heal a lurker? Why would scums target a lurker that helps them later?

[alban]

I don't think I see much effort from Alban to narrow down his scumpool tbh

Yeah, so? At least I am being honest enough to say that. I rather keep my scum pool wide than to force a mislynch based on wrong or insufficient reasons. This is exactly why I have been poking holes in theories of people like Kelvin even when he and I are suspecting the same person.

[alban]

a cursory inspection of the votecounts will show you that creature was a wagon for much of d1 and there were other people expressing their support for the wagon on D1.

he wasn't the nightkill in any universe.

So you never read day 1. cool.

Exactly. This guy never reads, gives false logic, misrepresents me, and wants to get away with it.

even if you're town NJAC was the nightkill. sorry that's just facts.

The only way you know that is if you are scum. Otherwise everything (including Creature being a NK) is just a conjecture.

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

You find 6 people scummy in a 3 scum game with 10 people alive. So, what? You're just going to shut down all cooperation with every player or...?

Yes, I do. And since I am town, it's natural to not know anything apart from my own identity and hence be a skeptic about everything everyone says!

So you've been playing for this whole fucking game and your conclusion is that 6 out of the 9 players besides you can't be trusted enough to even vote on the same wagon as them?

Not completely true. Yes, I find 6 people scummy. Yes, I can't trust weak logic of people I find scummy. But no, not true that I can't trust them if the logic is strong. This is why I have been asking you to sum up your case on Math. Which you refused to do. So then don't blame me for not getting on the wagon.

[alban]

if you're going to throw shitty shade at me then I'll assume that you're scum and vote you instead.

So, everyone who disagrees with you is a scum?

No, everyone who is doing literally the exact same thing in our previous game where they were scum is scum.

WHAT?! Everyone who has played with me knows that I have very different town and scum games, and this game is my town game --- being skeptic about popular wagons, being easy lynches, being vindictive, etc. My scum game is extremely calm and composed. Even if I am boiling within, I will pose as a zen. The only time I lost my cool as a scum was when I was scum with you and thats coz you used my slot without my consent, got me lynched and gained town cred for yourself. So yeah, if I am scum, then so are you. Coz you are doing exactly that now.

[alban]

RC, I'm totally coming around on this alban thing. If there are enough votes, I'll hammer.

Never give reasons. That seems to b motto of yours and rC's.
It's actually a great strategy. Coz the moment you give reasons, someone can refute you.
I mean really, if you are a town, you realise the scum will haunt you with my lynch?

[alban]

Can you at list give the strength of your reads?

Bro, this game is confusing as hell because almost everyone is a replacement, and the replacement are strong intelligent players who can manipulate the shit out of you. Let me think about this though. I mean I have been typing like crazy just coz I felt I am on the backfoot coz of the wagon on me. I will think and get back on this.

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

Here:

D1 lynch was

Commknight (doc).

Wagon: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul,

Sesq (doc)

, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere.

D2 lynch was

Sesq (doc).

Wagon:

MuttonChopMagic

, Titus,

Vedith (LunaeCinere)

,

NotTheRealPaul

,

Mathblade (Hellfire Missile)

,

Navy (Cooperative Sheep)

, alban

People on both the wagons are indicated in red in the D2 list. Confirmed townies are in green.

D1 lynch was achieved on June 2nd. Till June 1st, only 3 people were on it. Last 4 jumped on it in the last few hours. Last 3 on the D1 wagon are common in both the wagons. So, they obviously need more attention. In the absence of anything else, I would lynch in those 3.

Why did no one die on N1?
There are three doc claims, in the chronological order of claiming:
Agent Sparkles protected NJAC.
Cooperative Sheep (Navy) protected Gamma (itlepip)
I protected Creature. My logic is elaborated in 689. Basically, there were a couple of players I didn't want to save, and out of the players who were reasonable enough townies for me, Creature had the maximum contribution to the game.

I am assuming Agent Sparkles and Cooperative Sheep have both done their research and have given reasonable logic for why they chose their targets.
Even if they are fakeclaiming, the choice of their protection will not tell us much about the veracity of their claims. What I mean is obviously they will name those people whom they were TR-ing on D1. So it's NAI. ISO-ing both of them shows just that. Both of them indeed strongly TR'd their targets.

But the choice of target to save based on how much they contributed can tell us something. Gamma contributed a lot, so I can understand Cooperative Sheep's choice. But what's not easy to digest is Agent Sparkle's choice in NJAC. Sure they placed NJAC as their strongest TR, but NJAC's contribution to the game has been dismal. Saving NJAC has two main problems: why would scum target NJAC for Agent Sparkles to waste their only save on a player like NJAC and waste their one power throughout the game? Secondly, what difference would it make to the game if NJAC was dead? Almost everyone was worthier enough to save. Different people could have different criteria to choose whom to save, but I don't understand why anyone would save NJAC. They had placed NJAC and LunaeCinere as their strongest townreads. If I was in their shoes, I would choose Lunae any day (even though as alban I would never do that coz she was my SR), coz she had more of an impact on the game than NJAC.

So

Agent Sparkles

is another suspect for me.

So, my vote will be on one of these:

MuttonChopMagic, Vedith (LunaeCinere), NotTheRealPaul, Mathblade (Hellfire Missile), Navy (Cooperative Sheep), Agent Sparkles.

This is more than half the people in the game at this point , but I am working at it. In next seven days, I will have dropped further names from this list to arrive at my final name.

[alban]

a cursory inspection of the votecounts will show you that creature was a wagon for much of d1 and there were other people expressing their support for the wagon on D1.

he wasn't the nightkill in any universe.

So you never read day 1. cool.

Exactly. This guy never reads, gives false logic, misrepresents me, and wants to get away with it.

even if you're town NJAC was the nightkill. sorry that's just facts.

The only way you know that is if you are scum. Otherwise everything (including Creature being a NK) is just a conjecture.

That makes no sense. If NJAC was killed and RC/AS were mafia wouldn't we have a death n1?

Even if Agent Sparkles saved NJAC, how would AS know that NJAC was the choice for NK? How does anyone know anything for sure? That was my point. In fact, if I am town, why is it so difficult for RC to digest that Creature could have been the choice for NK?

[alban]

WHAT?! Everyone who has played with me knows that I have very different town and scum games, and this game is my town game --- being skeptic about popular wagons, being easy lynches, being vindictive, etc. My scum game is extremely calm and composed. Even if I am boiling within, I will pose as a zen. The only time I lost my cool as a scum was when I was scum with you and thats coz you used my slot without my consent, got me lynched and gained town cred for yourself. So yeah, if I am scum, then so are you. Coz you are doing exactly that now.

???

Your slot lived to endgame. because I worked my ass off to keep it alive. Sorry but simply never touching your scumpartners isn't going to cut it in such a townsided game.

We won at the end, if you went back and looked, because the interplay between our slots on D1 made us not possibly scumpartners. Which I did despite your protests.

Also you were crying at me for my choice of actions night 1, but if I hadn't changed all the actions away from what you wanted to do I would have been guiltied and we'd have been fucking slaughtered after the watcher watched Schadd next night and we'd be down to 1 player versus a massive block of confirmable town PRs.

I never intended for you to get lynched. You didn't get lynched. I let nancy get guiltied because it was the best move for the team and it won us the game. Sorry if you didn't like the way I do things because I get that it's not exactly the most fun thing in the world to play around me wanting to make sure we could reach endgame as a team. but we did because of things I did.

And I was referring to Vedith, not you. I don't really understand the difference between your town and scum meta as things are. I just know that you're scummy in general.

Like the one reason that I don't want to vote you is that Mathblade seems sorta keen on lynching you but I know that they would probably aggressively bus in this situation so.

Winning or losing has nothing to do with your playstyle. Since this is a team game, you need to consult everyone on everything, least of all requires me as the target of your witchhunt.

No, I didn't observe the game after I left, and I assumed that I must have been lynched coz of the marvellous way in which you implicated me. I have no problem in staying alive in the game till the end. It's just that you never consulted that with me. You were so taken over by the aim of winning that you forgot there are other people playing with you on the scumteam.

It also turned ugly coz you were unable to digest the fact that I was shading you. It was fine till you implicated me and distanced yourself from me, but the moment i started giving out logical points as to why you could be scum, you cried on the scumchat. So no, it wasn't me who complained, but it was you who couldn't handle the shit that was give to you in return.

I have no problem in someone changing the night actions. Except what you did was instead of doing a night action yourself, you changed the night action at the last moment and handed it out to me. This was solely done to safeguard your own interests in case you are investigated in the night instead of safeguarding interests of the team. Again, I have no problem if someone thinks this is the best thing to do as a team, but you did that sneakily, without consulting with any of the partners.

I have no problem with your moves. You are a damn good player as a scum. But I have problem with your sneaky attitude and arrogance that makes you behave as if you are the only player and everyone else is a putty in your hands.

[alban]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

Here:

D1 lynch was

Commknight (doc).

Wagon: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul,

Sesq (doc)

, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere.

D2 lynch was

Sesq (doc).

Wagon:

MuttonChopMagic

, Titus,

Vedith (LunaeCinere)

,

NotTheRealPaul

,

Mathblade (Hellfire Missile)

,

Navy (Cooperative Sheep)

, alban

People on both the wagons are indicated in red in the D2 list. Confirmed townies are in green.

D1 lynch was achieved on June 2nd. Till June 1st, only 3 people were on it. Last 4 jumped on it in the last few hours. Last 3 on the D1 wagon are common in both the wagons. So, they obviously need more attention. In the absence of anything else, I would lynch in those 3.

Why did no one die on N1?
There are three doc claims, in the chronological order of claiming:
Agent Sparkles protected NJAC.
Cooperative Sheep (Navy) protected Gamma (itlepip)
I protected Creature. My logic is elaborated in 689. Basically, there were a couple of players I didn't want to save, and out of the players who were reasonable enough townies for me, Creature had the maximum contribution to the game.

I am assuming Agent Sparkles and Cooperative Sheep have both done their research and have given reasonable logic for why they chose their targets.
Even if they are fakeclaiming, the choice of their protection will not tell us much about the veracity of their claims. What I mean is obviously they will name those people whom they were TR-ing on D1. So it's NAI. ISO-ing both of them shows just that. Both of them indeed strongly TR'd their targets.

But the choice of target to save based on how much they contributed can tell us something. Gamma contributed a lot, so I can understand Cooperative Sheep's choice. But what's not easy to digest is Agent Sparkle's choice in NJAC. Sure they placed NJAC as their strongest TR, but NJAC's contribution to the game has been dismal. Saving NJAC has two main problems: why would scum target NJAC for Agent Sparkles to waste their only save on a player like NJAC and waste their one power throughout the game? Secondly, what difference would it make to the game if NJAC was dead? Almost everyone was worthier enough to save. Different people could have different criteria to choose whom to save, but I don't understand why anyone would save NJAC. They had placed NJAC and LunaeCinere as their strongest townreads. If I was in their shoes, I would choose Lunae any day (even though as alban I would never do that coz she was my SR), coz she had more of an impact on the game than NJAC.

So

Agent Sparkles

is another suspect for me.

So, my vote will be on one of these:

MuttonChopMagic, Vedith (LunaeCinere), NotTheRealPaul, Mathblade (Hellfire Missile), Navy (Cooperative Sheep), Agent Sparkles.

This is more than half the people in the game at this point , but I am working at it. In next seven days, I will have dropped further names from this list to arrive at my final name.

Oh, shit, that's right. I forgot how bad that post looked.

This is what being "a half decent human being" mean to you? You are such a closet passive-aggressive Kelvin, it's not even funny. Fuck off and don't ever fucking interact with me.

[alban]

It's all very wonderful to lament post-facto about how you did what you did, but all I am asking is to discuss. If it appeared scum vs scum to you, you should have mentioned that. The point is not if I was going to be tracked or not. The point is why would you not discuss it with me, especially since you are attributing an action to me at the last moment. The point is not to be alive till endgame. The point is why wouldn't you discuss?

What's done is done. It's definitely good to hear the clarification after so many months coz it clears a few things. Done and dusted.

[alban]

@alban You suspect the entire Sesq wagon but me? How do I get special treatment? Why haven't you voted Navy?

Everyone except you and I were common on both the wagons.
I don't have an answer to your second question. Let me think about whom among the 6 do I wanna vote.

[alban]

Because I'm sort of used to people trusting me and taking me at my word in scum thread. I could definitely have been clearer about what I was thinking.

I acknowledge that I was a dick at the time because the stupidly townsided setup was stressing me the fuck out and I was having trouble seeing a path to victory from very early on that didn't rely on getting super lucky.

Okay. Clears a lot of things.

[alban]

a cursory inspection of the votecounts will show you that creature was a wagon for much of d1 and there were other people expressing their support for the wagon on D1.

he wasn't the nightkill in any universe.

So you never read day 1. cool.

Exactly. This guy never reads, gives false logic, misrepresents me, and wants to get away with it.

even if you're town NJAC was the nightkill. sorry that's just facts.

The only way you know that is if you are scum. Otherwise everything (including Creature being a NK) is just a conjecture.

That makes no sense. If NJAC was killed and RC/AS were mafia wouldn't we have a death n1?

Even if Agent Sparkles saved NJAC, how would AS know that NJAC was the choice for NK? How does anyone know anything for sure? That was my point. In fact, if I am town, why is it so difficult for RC to digest that Creature could have been the choice for NK?

What
The point is you are arguing RC is scum, killed NJAC, and no kill happened
The fuck?

Gamma, get a hold.
I didn't say that. I said the only way anyone knows anything for sure is if they are scum (or cop). Docs wouldn't know if their target was healed and that's why there was no NK.

[alban]

titus this doesn't mean shit. if I wanted mathblade to die they would die. if I want alban to die he will die. you can pull all this bullshit but in the end when I want someone dead they die.

[alban]

Vedith please fucking listen if you're Town. I want to minimize stupid tunnels and following orders does that.

Needless to say, I am with Vedith on this. Even if it results in my lynch.
When I come back with whom I wanna lynch, I will present a case on them. Not emotional or dictatorial statements.

[alban]

I mean it's true. Say what you want about me saying that like that but Titus trying to not have me confirmed so I can't push my reads as easily is gross.

Titus suddenly turned scummy for me in your last conversation with her, but you saying that doesn't help either.

[alban]

nnhhhhhh

Vedith, maybe I missed. What's your opinion of Math?

[alban]

Didn't mean to quote that.

[alban]

I think my approach has been binary; either my way or no way. Which is not the way I want to play this game anymore. It's a bit selfish and stupid and also stalling the game.
Kelvin, RC, Titus, Vedith (if you are reading), you all seem to have a plan. Can we all work together and lynch someone who is agreeable to everyone?
All four of you can't be scums together. So, I am ready to put my faith in someone who is agreeable to all four. Assuming that one of you is indeed a scum, we can take vote for someone who is agreeable for 3/4 of you. Or 2/3 of you in case Vedith is not going to read.
Math is not fine with Titus. What about Navy? What about Paul? What are you views on them? Both Titus and Vedith are for Navy. RC was okay with Navy eventually. You, Kelvin?
Also, you should elaborate the scenario about what happens if the intended lynch isn't a scum. What about the night and what about tomorrow? This will be helpful in case someone dies tonight.
My suggestion will be to just present your thoughts for now without poking holes in other people's theories. Refrain from commenting on anything else apart from your own thoughts. That's the only way we are moving forward.

[alban]

VOTE: alban

Trying to work together once he gets scumread thats some bs

It's certainly pretty damn suspect. I'll still play along with what he's saying for now, just to see if it can get us anywhere, because we're just spinning our wheels here.

Paul, are you riled up coz I mentioned you? You need to look at it objectively and not take it personally. Like even if I am scum, my strategy will only take the game fwd. Trying to create a synergy rather than me-vs-you scenario. It's still more than what a lot of people have done, don't you think? I am trying to find a common ground between the strong players rather than waiting for the deadline to arrive and make a foolish choice in return.
BTW, don't forget to answer 'what if the lynchee turns out to be a town' question.
The problem as I see of lynching me is where do you go from there? Do you have a plan?
As I see it, you will not have much to go by. Everyone has found me scummy. And I find almost every single player scummy too. Objectively speaking, my lynch gives you no extra information. Maybe you have an insight about how my lynch helps the town, Paul?

[alban]

VOTE: alban

Trying to work together once he gets scumread thats some bs

It's certainly pretty damn suspect. I'll still play along with what he's saying for now, just to see if it can get us anywhere, because we're just spinning our wheels here.

You are wrong there. It's not suspicious. As a townie, it's in the interest of the town that I survive. And so if my behaviour has tunnelled half the players to believe that I am scummy, I need to shift gears.
But I must say that's actually not the reason why this change in strategy occurred. I was reading an article on Israel-Palestine conflict resolution and I am simply applying the principles mentioned in the article to this game. I realised that maybe my attitude is holding back the game. It's just coincidental that my change in strategy is occurring when I have the maximum number of votes.

[alban]

I am at L-2. Just in case someone wanted to remove their votes.
I am going to bed.

[alban]

Ok. Remember my 6 suspects if I am dead before tomorrow.
Good night.

[alban]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

[alban]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

It is important coz if I go by scumminess, Titus is on a lower rung than you or RC. And I need either Titus (or maybe even two of Vedith or Gamma or Giga) to come on board and validate your lynch choices.

[alban]

Also, the same argument goes for Titus. I will not go ahead with their choices unless you and rC are on board. I believe that's the only way we don't scamper later on to avoid entering LYLO.

[alban]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

It is important coz if I go by scumminess, Titus is on a lower rung than you or RC. And I need either Titus (or maybe even two of Vedith or Gamma or Giga) to come on board and validate your lynch choices.

Notice how Hamas and Giga are both on the wagon, validating the lynch choice. In fact, alban and Titus are the only other active living players who are not and never have supported this lynch.

Talking about wagons Kelvin, you were on both Commknight and Sesq wagons, weren't you?
You are constantly throwing shade at me for not going ahead with your choices. I said, I am not opposed to Math/Navy lynch. But people I somewhat trust need to be on board for that. What part of it is unfathomable?
I don't want to repeat what happened with Sesq wagon where I didn't want to do exactly what you are asking me to do with the math wagon now, but I ended up doing that coz someone said the exact same thing you are saying now. That after we lynch this fellow, there will be clarity. There has been no clarity. I have been screaming from the rooftops that if lynching Sesq was done to achieve clarity, why the hell is there no effort driven to analyse the VCA or even Sesq's Day1-2? None of you are even talking about that. So then, how do I know that you will not do the same thing on D4? Worse still, how do I know that it's not all a ploy? Sorry, I don't want to go ahead with such promises. And the only way I believe I will find some semblance of honesty and truth from players that I read scummy is when players with diametrically opposite views can agree on a lynch. There are three scums, so even if Math/Navy are scums, there are still 2 more, and maybe the opposite party will have to grudgingly accept the alternative lynch.
Also, you need to consider this: In which universe will a scum!me will oppose so much for scum!math? In which universe will a scum!me will oppose anything so fervently that I will stand out? By saying no to Math as well as Navy lynch just coz 6 random players think of lynching them is not good enough reason for me. Especially coz you have really given a below average case on Math, and Titus has given a below average case on Navy. And by blocking these lynches (which I am sure you can achieve even without me), I am putting myself in the grave danger of becoming the next possibly lynch. Everyone either despises or is manipulating my stand to take me to the lynch. Which scum would do that? Yes, the moment I pose this argument, its authenticity goes for a toss coz I could be wifom-ing, but if I really wanted someone to die, I could have gone with any of the camps and got someone lynched. Making myself an easy target isn't a good strategy coz right now I am sticking out like a sore thumb.
Let's do this: If you want my vote, forget about getting titus on board. Why don't you revise your case on math and present it? You say I broke your poor case on Math by giving even poorer reasons. Let's have your revamped case on Math. Let everyone evaluate it. Vedith is absent. Titus is against Math lynch. If Gamma and Giga get convinced by your case on math, I will come on board as well.

[alban]

And yeah, I know that both Giga and Gamma are already on the wagon, but maybe they will change their mind once you put together your case. I really want them to go through your reasons on Math being a scum.

[alban]

For the sake of reference, this was the earlier conversation between me and Kelvin regarding Math.
An interesting titbit: after I poked holes in Kelvin's theory, Math voted for me

Hey people, can you please stop all the hyperbole and talk in simple language? Just say what you want without going into all possible logical scenarios. When I try reading through your posts, my head starts swimming.

I mean, the problem is that you kind of need to consider all possible scenarios to evaluate the strategic validity of a plan. I'll try to cut to the chase though.

Can you lay down your arguments in the form of:
Who?

MathBlade

Why?

1. Because Math being scum means we also need to consider that Titus may be scum, which is important, because she's currently seen as clear-ish.

2. Because my interaction with Math feels to me like I'm interacting with scum. Not even attempting to be reasonable and only launching attacks on me, rather than even discussing my proposal.

3. Severe Titus buddying that I'm not sure is because Titus is also scum or because Titus is town and Math wants to manipulate her.

What if they turn out to be not what you thought?

The beauty of my plan is that it legitimately does not matter if I'm wrong for three reasons:

1. Math's power is spent and Math is thus mechanically useless.

2. Math flipping Town confirms Titus as town, meaning we can safely dedicate protection to her, hopefully ensuring we'll go into MyLo (and by extension, LyLo) with 100% confirmed town.

3. If I'm wrong, it destroys my current tunnel vision that I have on both Math and Titus, making me able to focus better on cooperation. As it stands now, I'm too riled up by my own confirmation bias to fully cooperate with others.

Appreciate the deconstruction of thoughts.

I am not convinced by your Why's:

1. If math is scum, it brings Titus to null. They then are as scummy or as townie as anyone else, their budyying with Math notwithstanding. In fact, it is likely that scum!Math would not mention their scum partners name as a night target. So, if Math is indeed scum, it is less likely that Titus is scum. In any case, how can Math-Titus association be a reason to lynch Math? This could be a reason for policy lynching Math, but still not a good enough reason.

2. Your interaction with Math is a good enough reason for you, but not for anyone else unless you elaborate specific points that we cant verify by going to those specific posts. Till then it's your word against Math's.

3. Yeah possible, but it's also possible that he is town, copped her in the night, and that's why this buddying. I can understand you are skeptical about it, but I can't understand how you can give that as a reason for lynching Math.

Now, coming to your points on what-if scenarios:

1. Yes, Math's power is spent. But at this point, numbers are as important, if not more, than power.

2. Yes agreed, but then we will be killing a town to ensure the townie status of another town, and I don't know if I wanna do that. But this is the most pursuasive argument you have.

3. Yes, and it's a good enough individual strategy but not a good group strategy. Each one of us may suspects but we can't follow this strategy to lynch those people.

[alban]

I'm not sure how Gamma became "Hamas," but I'll blame my phone.

I was reading about Palestine y'day

[alban]

And yeah, I know that both Giga and Gamma are already on the wagon, but maybe they will change their mind once you put together your case. I really want them to go through your reasons on Math being a scum.

There will be no case from me. I've said everything about Math that needs saying. And why would they feel any desire to change their votes when they each independently scumread Math? That doesn't even make sense.

Your choice.
They may change their case since sometimes people go by the reads of their townreads, and they should know how flimsy your arguments are.

[alban]

Talking about wagons Kelvin, you were on both Commknight and Sesq wagons, weren't you?

I was not. I wasn't even playing the game at the time when those people were lynched.

Semantics. Your slot was.

You are constantly throwing shade at me for not going ahead with your choices. I said, I am not opposed to Math/Navy lynch. But people I somewhat trust need to be on board for that. What part of it is unfathomable?

All of it, because you trust virtually nobody. Your suspicion list includes everybody in the game except Gamma's and giga's slots, who weren't posting during most of that period. What's more, you don't have to trust somebody to agree with them.

Let's not drag everyone into it and make it vague. My grouse is against your case which is flimsy.
You may not have to trust someone to agree with them. I do. Given these differences, I have still agreed to work with you and others, whereas you are being obstinate and refusing to present your case on Math.

I don't want to repeat what happened with Sesq wagon where I didn't want to do exactly what you are asking me to do with the math wagon now, but I ended up doing that coz someone said the exact same thing you are saying now. That after we lynch this fellow, there will be clarity. There has been no clarity. I have been screaming from the rooftops that if lynching Sesq was done to achieve clarity, why the hell is there no effort driven to analyse the VCA or even Sesq's Day1-2? None of you are even talking about that. So then, how do I know that you will not do the same thing on D4? Worse still, how do I know that it's not all a ploy? Sorry, I don't want to go ahead with such promises.

I don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about, because I wasn't there, but whoever was making promises like that sounds like they were a fool. You don't get clarity from random fucking lynches and crappy VCAs. You get clarity from hard facts. And there's nothing harder than the fact that if Math flips town, Titus is confirmed town. That's fucking factual. And better yet, if Math doesn't flip town, it means we have less scum.

You are sounding like a broken record. All your posts are "this is how it is, but if you don't agree with me, then I will shout/sulk". You don't have an idea about Sesq wagon coz you refuse to read. Even after naming a particular incident, why wouldn't you go back and read that particular incident? Your choice.

And the only way I believe I will find some semblance of honesty and truth from players that I read scummy is when players with diametrically opposite views can agree on a lynch. There are three scums, so even if Math/Navy are scums, there are still 2 more, and maybe the opposite party will have to grudgingly accept the alternative lynch.

Yeah, no. People can have opposite views on some stuff, while having similar views on other stuff. That doesn't mean that they are more likely to be mutually correct when they agree. There's absolutely nothing about consensus that makes it inherently more correct. There's just less room to point fingers.

Faulty logic and misrepresentation. Faulty logic coz just because more people agreeing on something might be incorrect doesn't mean less people agreeing on something is more correct. Misrepresentation coz you made me sound as if that's the way I want the world to play. I clearly stated and hence there's no need to misrepresent me, that these are my thoughts, and this is how I would like to play. I found a way wherein I can come on board, but you are refusing to help. Your choice.

Also, you need to consider this: In which universe will a scum!me will oppose so much for scum!math? In which universe will a scum!me will oppose anything so fervently that I will stand out? By saying no to Math as well as Navy lynch just coz 6 random players think of lynching them is not good enough reason for me. Especially coz you have really given a below average case on Math, and Titus has given a below average case on Navy. And by blocking these lynches (which I am sure you can achieve even without me), I am putting myself in the grave danger of becoming the next possibly lynch. Everyone either despises or is manipulating my stand to take me to the lynch. Which scum would do that? Yes, the moment I pose this argument, its authenticity goes for a toss coz I could be wifom-ing, but if I really wanted someone to die, I could have gone with any of the camps and got someone lynched. Making myself an easy target isn't a good strategy coz right now I am sticking out like a sore thumb.

In a universe where you want to be able to have the right reads if a lynch goes through, but you don't actually want to take part in the lynch because you are hoping it won't go through. Or maybe in the universe where you do weird crap so can say "why would I do this weird crap to draw attention to myself?"

Let me assure you both the universes are yours and I have no interest in partaking you. Seriously. There are people here who know my scum game, and this isn't how I play. Although I may generally appear scummy.

Let's do this: If you want my vote, forget about getting titus on board. Why don't you revise your case on math and present it? You say I broke your poor case on Math by giving even poorer reasons. Let's have your revamped case on Math. Let everyone evaluate it. Vedith is absent. Titus is against Math lynch. If Gamma and Giga get convinced by your case on math, I will come on board as well.

I'm not revising my case on Math, because it was already solid enough as it stood. The strategy is solid and the reasoning for my scumread are my own and are not intended to convince you. I'm not casing Math again. I don't need to case Math again. I doubt Gamma or giga give a shit about me casing Math again.

It's this simple, alban: We have a little over a day left. You can be part of a scum lynch that you admitted to not opposing on multiple occasions or you can actively oppose it by refusing to vote and making it look like you are protecting Math. Half the players find Math suspicious (and rightfully so), so why do you want to be on the wrong side of that? Even the two players you apparently don't suspect support the lynch.

Man, you have an amazing capacity to not even budge an inch.
You refuse to read about anything that happened before you joined.
You won't give a compelling case on Math yet are voting for them.
You won't revise your case on them.
You won't entertain possibilities of lynching anyone else coz of course Math is a lone scum.

I tried and I give up.

[alban]

Are you at least ready to the idea of copping Math so that in case they are town, we don't lose them?

[alban]

Alban, I'm only lynching between Navy/Mathblade today and my case strongly relies on POE within the cops since I don't think all the doctors are scum.

I am fine with it.

RC is town. I've read D1 and neither Creature nor Gamma make sense as N1 kills. I was the shot that night. I know and acknowledge he has a good scum game but Agent Sparkles was also very town and the mechanics suggest he's town. RC being town heavily implies he's reading titus correctly and she and grundy are also obvious town. From that alone, there has to be one scum cop from your pov.

One question. If Titus is town coz RC reads her as town, why isn't Math town coz Titus reads them town? Why are you placing RC's scumread of Math above Titus's townread of them? Are you saying Titus is town only/mostly coz RC reads them town?

Firmly leaving your vote on RC, who's never getting lynched today, isn't helping anyone. Vote Navy if not Mathblade, but an RC vote is not going to do anything when there's 1 day to deadline left.

The vote on RC stayed only coz I didn't care to unvote. I know that wagon isn't going anywhere, and also maybe I am wrong coz everyone seems to be townreading him, even people who otherwise come from the opposite ends of the spectrum.
UNVOTE: RC

[alban]

he's just shitposting

VOTE: navy

cooperative sheep was scummy too imo so this is where i want to start

if i need to case i will but i want to hear from alban mostly

What's it that you wanna hear?
If it's about my reads, this is what I think:
Titus can't be a scum after Math!scum - especially the way she was defending them and they taking Titus's name as their investigation. It's possible but it's far fetched idea. Also, the vehemence with which they were supporting each other. Actually Math hardly spoke. It was Titus supporting Math throughout, and again, such a loyal support seems illogical coming from a scum.
I don't think Navy is scum coz Math was ready to lynch Navy till the end. If Math really wanted to distance, Navy doesn't seem to be the player that they would try to distance from. Navy was and is kinda inconsequential to the game.
My top bet for scum right now will be Kelvin or RC.

[alban]

As a rejoinder to what I said and RC's response to that, I agree..Titus can't be trusted.

There's no daytalk. Phew! Imagine if there was indeed daytalk.

I think scumteam now has a fairly decent idea about which night each of the cops and docs are assigned to.

I am sorry I don't have much anything to add.

[alban]

As a last ditch effort:
1. Read my D1. Once Sesq wagon started receding and COmmknight wagon was yet to build up, I was the only one on Math's slot. Yes, it's not a strong reason, I agree.
2. Read my D2. I was opposed to Sesq lynch. And I hammered coz Titus as well as Vedith said that it will bring clarity. I was not convinced, but I did the needful.
3. I was opposed to massclaiming. I still believe massclaim is the moment when the game started tilting in scum's favour.
4. I was the 3rd doc ho claimed with N1 action. Forget whether my claim to have saved Creature and Creature being a viable target makes sense or not. But why would I claim when the focus is gonna be on D1 docs? Does it make any sense? This was long before people had started massclaiming. In fact, I wasn't even sure whether docs should have claimed, but I did coz two docs claimed within a few hours of D2 beginning, and I was certain one of them was a scum.
5. I wasn't opposed to Math's lynch. I had burnt my fingers with Sesq lynch, and I didn't want a repetition of that. So, I started asking for a case on Math. One case was produced. Since the case that was produced was particularly weak, and other players went ahead with votes rather than the explanation behind those votes, I stuck to my conviction. Sure, I wasn't on the wagon, so what? Plus, why would I not be on the Math wagon if I knew for certain who he was and could see that there's no turning back, especially when he started making foolish claims and posts in last 4-5 pages before the night?
6. I tried to solve the deadlock between RC-Titus. Sure, it didn't work, coz they didn't even reply, but I tried.
7. I tried to look at players who were on both Commknight and Sesq wagon, but the response was lukewarm so I dropped it.

Each of these reasons could be collectively weak, but together they should be convincing enough to about who I am.

But if majority of the players think that I am scum, let's get it over with rather than long winding discussions that compel me to to keep making appearances.
I am all for discussion, but it makes me annoyed how fucking helpless I feel being openly implicated and yet have absolutely nothing to defend myself against.

PS. Kelvin, it's better if you stop interacting with me. I know your immediate response will be to tear this post apart, but I am sure there's nothing you haven't already said, so keep away.

[alban]

/Each of these reasons could be *individually* weak

[alban]

PS. Kelvin, it's better if you stop interacting with me. I know your immediate response will be to tear this post apart, but I am sure there's nothing you haven't already said, so keep away.

Sorry, that's not going to happen. I won't respond to it for a little bit, because it's a long post and I'm in class (good thing I'm so good at the subject or I'd have to pay attention). That post seems long enough to take me an hour or two of writing, so it'll have to wait until I can give it my full attention.

Arghhh
Why are you so persistent man? Why can't you keep quiet? At least regarding my posts? I am tired of your non-stop shitting on my posts. Everyone has got your point. Loud and clear. I am a scum.

[alban]

if we get a town flip in the docs target me no wifom. inno on me would confirm the remaining 2 docs as both scum.
if we get a scum flip it's probably better to look for a guilty.

Wait, let's go over this.
How does an innocent you make me guilty? Can you explain?

[alban]

Coz either your theory is wrong or you are scum. Coz I am town.

[alban]

When I flip town, look at my wagon, especially Kelvin. Bloody moron.
None of you had a single thing to say about my detailed post on why I am not scum. Did any of you ISO my D1? And D2?

Giga, yeah I push on weird lynches but that's not my scum tell. I basically push on non-majoritarian wagons as town, and hence as scum I have to push weird lynches too to appear town.

If it's between me and Navy, obviously the vote will go to Navy.
VOTE: Navy

Posts on Hellfire on D1:

(not much, yet something)

Spoiler:

what else would it mean, gamma?

and yeah, maybe we should snipe from the inactive pile.

how about VOTE: Coop Sheep

wait l2 fuck

UNVOTE: aronagrundy

i think you are

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

VOTE: LunaeCinere

are you an alt

sup

VOTE: gamma emerald

VOTE: aronagrundy

this is fucking trash yo

there's no fucking reason


its like

ur an alt
votes

ur weird/scummy for voting because it was rvs

votes


boi

This is scummy. Also, your reaction to sesq was weird.
Has anyone played with hell before?
Hellfire, you realise I made the exact same post just a few posts ago?
He repeating exactly the same pt should convince everyone that I am not scum with him. I could of course be scum without him, about which i will convince you guys that I am not.

I urge you all to vote for hellfire.

VOTE: hellfire

I urge you all to vote for hellfire.

VOTE: hellfire

I know this, wagon hasn't even begun, but I am sure he is one of the scums.

Albany who would you vote at this juncture?

Would vote between hellfire, lunae, gamma, sesq > agent, sheep

On Commknight:

Spoiler:

Creature
Hellfire Missile*
Agent Sparkles*
NJAC
aronagrundy
Cooperative Sheep*
LunaeCinere

^ Bet all scum is in this seven. Even taking a random guess you got a near 50% chance of hitting them. XD

Townie

About roleclaims in gen and my doc claim:

Spoiler:

I protected NJAC last night. We should both be near-conftown barring another claim.

I dunno if it's such a good idea to claim.
There could be a possibility that the scum didn't kill anyone. I dunno if that would be a small possibility to rule out, especially in a game with 4-6 cops. The only way a scum gets some pass is on a kill-less night and 1. if they are claimed to be protected by a doc; 2. if the scum themselves claim to be a doc.

I was N1 doc and saved Creature.
This is the reason why I was a bit suspicious of Agent's claim.
Although there could be 2 docs, for me it's unlikely that there could be 3 docs on N1.
I would like to lynch between Agent and Sheep.

Guys
Alban is very clearly trying to avoid the 3 doc claim situation. This suggests he has a very large stake in making sure he or another in the pool isn't lynched. I'd rather vote him since it's very clear he is scum no matter whether one of the other claimed docs is.

Gamma, you are either not paying attention to my posts or you are deliberately framing me.
Every single point in your post is problematic
1. I am trying to avoid the 3 doc claim situation:
ISO me on D2 and you will find I have been talking about it non-stop. Like here:

I protected NJAC last night. We should both be near-conftown barring another claim.

I dunno if it's such a good idea to claim.
There could be a possibility that the scum didn't kill anyone. I dunno if that would be a small possibility to rule out, especially in a game with 4-6 cops. The only way a scum gets some pass is on a kill-less night and 1. if they are claimed to be protected by a doc; 2. if the scum themselves claim to be a doc.

And elsewhere.
So, no, I am not avoiding the doc claims situation. I am voting for you for your unfounded confidence about knowing exactly who I am.
Also, it's so stupid to think that someone forced me to claim and that's how I have landed up in this 3 doc claim situation. I did it of my own volition. If I really wanted to avoid it, why would I claim in the first place? If there's really a scum in the other 2 doc claims, why would I jump into the fray and raise the stakes of successfully lynching a scum from 1 in 2 to now 2 in 3? Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool and I have no patience to explain it to them any further. Even that Mutton fellow who keeps saying I am a scum but only along with one more scum in there.

2. Large stake in not lynching in the pool:
Coz I am voting for you? That's not a good enough argument. Obvious conflict of interest.

3. "I'd rather vote him since it's very clear he is scum":
And how did you achieve this clairvoyance? Elaborate.

Well, we now know there's one scum in these docs, though alban is the most buyable claim there (not the most buyable nightkill).

We know this?
How so - I'd be happy to lynch in that pool if so - but I'm pretty sure you don't understand the setup (or I don't). Clarify?

VOTE: Gamma

Gamma is currently one of three players least likely to be scum.
Vote better.

Think better.
If you don't believe the doc claims such as mine, how can you believe whom I or others saved? Why is Gamma (or any of the saved folks) least likely to be a scum? If I am scum, why can't I fakeclaim as a doc and pretend to having saved my scumbuddy Creature? Only if all 3 doc claims turn out to be correct, you can have some confidence in the people we saved to be town. Even if one of us is lying and is a scum, all the three people who were saved on N1 come under scanner. And actually, even if all the 3 doc claims are correct, there is still a possibility that the saved people could be scum coz the scum may have chosen not to kill anyone. This is less probable (coz the objective of the scum team at this point would be to cut our numbers down rather than play it safely), but still possible.

I am not well so I am not gonna keep it long.
With the entry of two seasoned players in the game, I would have imagined the game would be heading in a spectacular direction.
If earlier the town was lost, it's not misdirected.
I think claiming is the worst and the stupidest idea ever. Unless of course it had to come from scum.
Between Vedith and Titus, I would be more inclined to vote for Vedith also coz he replaces Lunae - someone I couldn't trust before.
As sure as I may sound, I am not sure about this line of action, and I trust nothing dumb will happen under provocation or pressure, but I read Paul's latest posts, and got a doomsday feel. Paul, DO NOT REVEAL! End of discussion.
See you when better.

I still dont buy it for the following reason:

Everyones' roles are laid bare open to be NK'd. It doesn't matter who's to perform which night. It's immaterial coz people will roleclaim once they have done their doc-ing or cop-ing for that night. Anyone who hasn't is the intended target for scum. This is exactly why I didn't wanna claim on D2. When the 1st doc claimed, I had asked them the reason why they did, but pat came the 2nd claim! And then I wanted to claim too coz I was not convinced about their claims.
Now it's easy to guess what the scum will do with us. They will keep us alive. The town will never know whether we are scums or townies until the rest of you lynch us which is exactly what a scum would want. Even if one of us is a scum, it works best to their advantage. If we hadn't claimed, scum would waste their NK on someone who has become a VT in effect, and that would be beneficial to the town.

So walk me through what happens when you divide the players in two heaps. I can see where this is going, but I still wanna hear you out. I think your strategy will flop, but walk me through it. There's of course the possibility that scum will get to know our strategy but that's a risk I am willing to take. I have not discussed everything I have on my mind. Guess everyone can make that decision for themselves, what to share and what to hide.

Vote for vedith/titus/sesq/gamma (maybe in that order).
Vedith and titus for coming up with the stupid/manipulative idea of claiming.
After being certain of the game solving itself after everyone claimed, now they aren't even sure what the fuck to do.
This is the point where i say, I had told you so.
Bloody morons.

[alban]

Gamma, Giga, why are you voting for me? Reasons please.

[alban]

Gamma, Giga, why are you voting for me? Reasons please.

giga's not. Yet.

Do not talk when not fucking talked to.

[alban]

Gamma, Giga, why are you voting for me? Reasons please.

Because I feel that your posts are coming from a scum perspective. One interesting thing is you having voiced a scumread on Sesq day 1, yet you act like you are not tied to the push except for the vote. I may be wrong here but that's what I get a sense of.
Interesting thought occurred to me. I think with a scumflip it might be worth it to check the rush to lynch CommKnight.

What's a scum perspective? Elaborate.
Yes, I did voice a concern regarding Sesq on D1, but that had all disappeared by D2 coz everyone was suspecting Sesq, and when there's a unanimity against someone, I read them as town. I pushed their slot for knowing more, but throughout more than half of the latter part of D1, I was on Math's slot.
You are indeed wrong. And I got a peek regarding how little you have on me to vote for me. You are unable to explain your thoughts logically and resorting to impressions. You have played multiple games with me and you should know that I am generally scummy and my posts are more or less like this.

[alban]

With so much fucking hatred around, I really want to self-vote.

[alban]

Declaring intent

Like I said alban, your thought process in continuing to suspect kelvin as scum seems off and motivated by keeping the lynches you need to win around

Also what hatred? This is the least toxic I've seen this town be.

Will hammer after work, typing on an ancient iPad rn that deleted this entire post twice.

So my thought process is scummy, but his isn't.
What happens when I flip town?

[alban]

That was rhetorical.

I am not expecting an answer, but you guys need to think about it.

How you guys do not want to play a game based on logic and reason, but based on your inherent biases. Whenever I have asked for reason, I have got a cold shoulder, or worse still, a lame explanation.

Like Giga here: My thought process could be off, but how is that AI? Is an off thought process indicative of being a scum? At this point in the game, would a scum go ahead with an off thought process? Will Kelvin whose thought process seems bang on with everyone else regarding me, how likely is he to be a town? I am not saying he is scum, but how can Giga give me scum cred for suspecting a popular player; like hows that indicative of anything?

Each of you have some inherent biases, and I wish the town was open enough to discuss, because only when you discuss your reasons with me, can I logically shoot them down. At least Giga gave their reasons. A lot of you haven't, even after repeated inquiries from me.

P-edit: If the clarity comes out of a logical thought out plan, good enough. If that gives you a way out of chaos without any thought-out plan, I don't think it's gonna work out. Like RC saying an innocent on him makes both the docs scums. So he is pitting himself against me to sell his argument. If he is scum, that's an obvious way to get a wagon on. If he is town, it's flawed logic.

[alban]

Master of divide-and-rule policy.

[alban]

Some funny translations from asshole language to english.
1. 'people think alban is more likely to be scum' - meaning when alban turns town, the person who said this need not be held accountable.
2. 'there is almost certainly a scum between you and alban' - meaning 'would you rather that we lynch you than alban?' classical hand-wringing.
3. 'there is almost certainly a scum between you and alban' - meaning when alban flips town, we will be on you.
4. 'this isn't because we are trying to shut you out' - it's now we vs. you (titus).
5. 'we've somehow organically formed some sort of townbloc' - and when alban flips town, we will have started a mini mafia game with 7 players and Day1. Coz we wouldn't know shit about who's who in that supposed townblock.
6. 'you'd be interested in applying by hammering alban?' - oh waait, not subtle anymore. join my crusade or else...
7. 'it seems like you are just sitting here repeatedly opposing the townbloc, and that is suspicious to me.' - i can see the future, can you? like i can predict who will be the lynch tomorrow.