Matrix6 BP fix

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Don't need to change anything.

Just make it a rule that anyone attempting the strategy will be force replaced.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don't see the problem.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Don't need to change anything.

Just make it a rule that anyone attempting the strategy will be force replaced.

People should have permission to do whatever strategies they want.

And I should be able to trust tell.

This thread is exactly why they shouldn't.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

BP is a great role and encourages pro-town play. Ban the strategy and move on.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Were people campaigning for it be changed before the strategy popped up? If you can show me, I'll drop it.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I only read the last 2 pages or so but I saw day talk being thrown out there which by no means is complicated but is just so unfair for newbies to deal with when they roll town.

We should have SEs become mini-ICs and start focusing on improving IC play. Or better yet, eliminate ICs and just let the mod answer any jargon or theory related questions. After all, this strategy was only created to better win rates which is not what the Newbie queue should be about. If you're an IC or frequently in as an SE and don't want to lose, stop playing Newbies.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I understand where you are coming from Grey. Believe me I do, but if we had better ICs or if we didn't have ICs, I'm willing to bet my account we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

LUV's point makes a lot of sense from a certain point of view actually. Hadn't considered it as a fix really, but if they disallow trust tells or text of truth or whatever it's really the same thing.

I guess the only thing is if you care about the win-rates being closer to 50% and want to change it for that reason.

It's not even close to the same thing.

A trust tell isn't "game strategy". Text of Truth isn't "mechanics breaking".

Aside from that shit, there is no legitimate way to enforce it. How can you forbid the BP from claiming d1? You just can't. What do they say if they get wagoned? "Sorry, can't claim because people got fucking brilliant in a mafia discussion thread and talked out of their ass"?

Subjective. Anything and everything can be considered game strategy.

Sure there is. A link to the strategy will be in the rules and if the mod feels you're attempting to do it, you'll be force replaced. Watch the strategy die out within a month.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Sure, they could say that.

Do we avoid reasonable and practical fixes to things on the basis of, "but this act does not fit *arbitrary category*!" or do we just go with reasonable and practical fixes that don't interrupt the smoothness of games?

Nobody here is criticizing neither reasonable nor practical suggestions.

Just the bullshit that's being spewed about censoring optimal strategy instead of fixing the actual problem.

It hasn't been confirmed optimal though. If it was, town would be winning a lot more.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Sure, they could say that.

Do we avoid reasonable and practical fixes to things on the basis of, "but this act does not fit *arbitrary category*!" or do we just go with reasonable and practical fixes that don't interrupt the smoothness of games?

Nobody here is criticizing neither reasonable nor practical suggestions.

Just the bullshit that's being spewed about censoring optimal strategy instead of fixing the actual problem.

It hasn't been confirmed optimal though. If it was, town would be winning a lot more.

Then there's no excuse for banning it since it's no threat.

Then why does this thread exist?

It clearly is and there is not enough time to come up with a viable solution. Ban it until all suggestions are properly tested if you want it fixed that bad.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Grey is talking like he had issues with the setup since he joined which is a lie

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Also Grey I'm not trying to say that newbies shouldn't care about winning. They definitely should care, but should be encouraged to try and win in a way that doesn't make the game tedious or unbearable for anyone else.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

No I won't leave. This discussion is a waste of time.

Site meta is the problem. Day in and day out we complain about it, the Newbie queue is a great way to change the culture.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Okay, let's make a deal Grey. From here on out, everyone when they roll a PR, claims it in their first post. If you complain that's not how x role should be played, take a perma ban.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Okay, let's make a deal Grey. From here on out, everyone when they roll a PR, claims it in their first post. If you complain that's not how x role should be played, take a perma ban.

If they choose to do so, THAT'S THEIR FUCKING RIGHT.

Yeah, yeah. We'll see if you still hold this same belief when you're losing everytime you roll town because of it.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Okay, let's make a deal Grey. From here on out, everyone when they roll a PR, claims it in their first post. If you complain that's not how x role should be played, take a perma ban.

If they choose to do so, THAT'S THEIR FUCKING RIGHT.

Yeah, yeah. We'll see if you still hold this same belief when you're losing everytime you roll town because of it.

What you like to ignore is the concept of free choice.

Because the ability to make choices is inconvenient for you, you want to usurp that from the players

I'm thinking of the greater good. It's not just inconvenient for me, quite a lot of people have expressed dislike for the strategy.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

How would they forget if it's properly enforced?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

People don't forget to not post their role PM.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

No, if it's properly enforced it won't. Bans can be handed out instead of force replacements.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

People want to play, they'll forget about this in order to do so. It's not worth challenging staff authority over.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Why are you going so hard though?

You're basically saying this teaches optimal play (which has yet to be really proven) but at what cost? We are arguing it takes away from what mafia is suppose to be about.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

This is me as scum in my scum PT.

Me: So x is bulletproof. How do we buddy and pocket him?
Partner: Well he likes when someone does so and so and says these kind of buzzwords and phrases.
Me: Cool. So we just never night kill him then.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Why are you going so hard though?

You're basically saying this teaches optimal play (which has yet to be really proven) but at what cost? We are arguing it takes away from what mafia is suppose to be about.

The problem isn't strategic.

The problem is mechanical.

You're​ trying to address a mechanical problem by crippling strategy.

It's fucking stupid to the limits of infinity.

It's not confirmed to be extremely good strategy. The player has to make the role shine. Claiming doesn't teach that.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

It's fairly easy at least in my experience for scum to play around 1 confirmed town. Once newbies realize this, then what happens to your strategy?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

It's fairly easy at least in my experience for scum to play around 1 confirmed town. Once newbies realize this, then what happens to your strategy?

The strategy doesn't even center on the BP. BP claim is only the first step.

The fact you don't know that disqualifies you from commenting on it.

Oh I know, I just don't care.

How many times have you caught scum with this strategy?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

How many times have you said "oh the way he said not BP is scummy and it actually flipped scum"?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

It's fairly easy at least in my experience for scum to play around 1 confirmed town. Once newbies realize this, then what happens to your strategy?

The strategy doesn't even center on the BP. BP claim is only the first step.

The fact you don't know that disqualifies you from commenting on it.

Oh I know, I just don't care.

How many times have you caught scum with this strategy?

Why do you care, if it's, as you say, not an issue?

Why throw out horseshit suggestions about something you don't even care about?

Answer the question

How many times bro?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

The game is about having fun and scum hunting.

This strategy does neither effectively.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Why are you getting so upset?

You know that only encourages me more right? Have you seen me in Civ?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah, well this thread is my new home now, Grey

Smith if I derailed I'll leave but please just consider banning it temporarily. I've seen you say why a couple of suggestions are too one sided and I just think even if we all agreed on a replacement (seems impossible at this point), it'll still have to be properly tested and that can take months.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Well the bet is still on the table friend.

Kinda hilarious you can't tell me how many scum you caught off it though.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Let it be known that Grey isn't willing to accept a perma ban if he can't go a month without complaining about people claiming their PR everytime they roll it in their first post.

pedit: I'm not sure to be honest. It encourages scum not to lurk and beat town with really good day play but it also teaches newbies that PRs are all you need. I'd like to think the latter is a bigger problem but I can definitely see someone making the case that lurking should not be the only way newbies should learn how to win as scum.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Can you just show me where you had an issue with this setup before say Trump's inauguration?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Just one post. Just one post saying or hinting that town BP is broken.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

pedit: I'm not sure to be honest. It encourages scum not to lurk and beat town with really good day play but it also teaches newbies that PRs are all you need. I'd like to think the latter is a bigger problem but I can definitely see someone making the case that lurking should not be the only way newbies should learn how to win as scum.

i think it might be a broken experience for newbies if the scumteam is double-newbie. being steamrolled is bad for either alignment - i would think the idea of just disallowing a 'massclaim' strat on the grounds that it's not considered in the spirit of the game in a Newbie environment is the best way to have it until you can fix the Matrix itself.

Yeah, exactly.

My goal wasn't to take away how one can use and/or how to play their role. It was just to prevent more time wasting and stop the bleeding.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don't know how long this setup has been in effect but I like to think it was just a mutual understanding/unwritten rule to not do a strategy like this one. Obviously those people left or don't play anymore, so a window of opportunity opened up for someone to enforce it and we're currently seeing the results of that being left unchecked.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah I just think that's the way to go. It also helps with retaining users and bringing diversity to the site. A newbie may have an interesting or quirky play style but due to poor ICs and SEs, opted to either replace out or said their first game here would also be their last.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

As one of the only people posting in this thread who actually mods newbie games, I can say that, beyond the simple fact that trying to moderate player behavior in the way that LUV suggests is obnoxious to the players, it is EVEN MORE obnoxious to the person actually moderating the game. The way to fix behavior around a "broken" setup (and I still hold that there are substantial antitown effects of the strategy as currently pursued, as well as the fact that it makes a fake doctor claim MUCH more doable for scum) is to change the setup. Trying to mandate that trying to break a setup is a force-replacement or mod-kill offense is the sort of idea that would fairly rapidly lead to no experienced players wanting to play in that setup as well as no experienced moderators wanting to mod that setup.

I can sympathize if people actual had data to back it up being worth the negative effects. I've yet to been informed of that information and I'm inclined to believe people are worried about win rates until otherwise. I understand the accepted way is to replace the role but I don't see that being feasibly done as evident by this thread.

I don't agree with the latter at all. If people aren't willing to compromise their style of scum hunting just a little more for the greater good than we will have bigger problems. I can't speak on how mods would feel but as a player, I think most would agree with me that going on strike against the queue because you can't use this strategy says more about the person than my posts in this thread ever will.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Think of it like Yu-Gi-Oh if you know what a ban list is suppose to be for that game.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

row 1 is broken, first of all.

second of all, 1-shot bulletproof claiming is absolutely going to be a thing in that setup because you're confirmed town and you prevent investigates on you (it's beneficial in column B in mine but bad in row 1 in mine)

so it doesn't fix the problem we're trying to fix

Not about claiming the role. Claiming is fine. Asking everyone to do so at the start of the game is not.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

As one of the only people posting in this thread who actually mods newbie games, I can say that, beyond the simple fact that trying to moderate player behavior in the way that LUV suggests is obnoxious to the players, it is EVEN MORE obnoxious to the person actually moderating the game. The way to fix behavior around a "broken" setup (and I still hold that there are substantial antitown effects of the strategy as currently pursued, as well as the fact that it makes a fake doctor claim MUCH more doable for scum) is to change the setup. Trying to mandate that trying to break a setup is a force-replacement or mod-kill offense is the sort of idea that would fairly rapidly lead to no experienced players wanting to play in that setup as well as no experienced moderators wanting to mod that setup.

I can sympathize if people actual had data to back it up being worth the negative effects. I've yet to been informed of that information and I'm inclined to believe people are worried about win rates until otherwise. I understand the accepted way is to replace the role but I don't see that being feasibly done as evident by this thread.

I don't agree with the latter at all. If people aren't willing to compromise their style of scum hunting just a little more for the greater good than we will have bigger problems. I can't speak on how mods would feel but as a player, I think most would agree with me that going on strike against the queue because you can't use this strategy says more about the person than my posts in this thread ever will.

luv it's never been about the claim strategy. it's not the moderator's place to tell the players how to play a game within the bounds that are set ever: and setting the bounds to exclude a claim strat is way gross.

Then I should be able to trust tell.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

nancy has a rule in her first game not to shit post but there is no outrage over it, why?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

nancy has a rule in her first game not to shit post but there is no outrage over it, why?

TIL LUV doesn't know the difference between posts that advance the game and posts that don't.

You keep sucking me back in

RC argued it's not a moderator's place to tell a player how to play a game. If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should, be allowed to be banned as a strategy, but not this one? Why is a setup like Restrictive Mafia allowed? You can't pick and choose what is considered strategy and what isn't. What you can do however is determine which strategies are overall harmful for the player base and get rid of them.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Before anyone gives me shit, I understand a player is allowed their own specific set of rules.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

LUV's Utopia Philosophy.

In all seriousness LUV, imagine two little kids. Kid A is playing a video game and knows all about it. Kid B knows nothing of the video game. Kid B asks Kid A if they can play the video game. Kid A says sure, but as Kid B knows nothing of the video game, Kid A feels the need to "correct" how Kid B is playing the game because "they aren't playing the game right." And thus Kid B gets annoyed and frustrated.

My point is, people don't like being told how they are supposed to play the game.

People don't like to be told to do a lot of things. The people who actually go out and do something about that are the Steve Jobs of the world.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Me and you both live the U.S. where a lot of laws are in place to somewhat keep society functional and mentally stable. The people who have urges to do things that are overall bad for the people go to jail.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don't see the difference here.

And I'm sucked in again, damn y'all

[Lil Uzi Vert]

By the logic of the people saying "either stop using or ban the strategy", it's perfectly fine to have setups involving Cop+Doctor with no breaking-up factors as long as we either ban Follow the Cop or politely tell people to not invoke it. Nowhere else on-site has it been okay to continue running a busted setup while simply requesting players to not exploit it. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Now that said, I don't think this case is at all as urgent as people seem to be treating it as. Sure the current situation is not optimal, but it's hardly bad enough that we have to change the newbie setup yesterday. The strategy isn't even conclusively beneficial for town according to my statistics so far. (I want to say something else but don't know if it would involve ongoing games.)

In any case, it's clear this discussion has gone off the rails, and it's probably best for the listmods to decide what to do from here on out.

We can ban that too

[Lil Uzi Vert]

The argument that is being presented is that experienced mods and players will not want to join or run a game if said ban is put in place. Essentially you're telling me that people are going to stop playing mafia on arguably the best site to play it because they want to use a strategy that hasn't proven to be effective.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Along these lines, I think we should automatically modkill anyone who votes anyone of their own faction. This will greatly improve games for some unspecified and unclear reason.

Like responses like this are part of the problem and why the culture needs a facelift.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I'm not trying to make anyone mad but with responses like that it only encourages me to do so until someone with power tells me to stop.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Scum not bussing is actually healthy

[Lil Uzi Vert]

No they would not..

Simply making a rule that says if you're seriously attempting to ask players to claim whether or not they're a 1-shot BP on Day 1 makes it very clear. There is no way for people to play around that rule.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Follow the cop isn't even a problem with how setups are made these days but I'm sure a ban on it and discussing how to actually fix it privately would've worked just fine when it was first discovered.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Follow the cop is universal. The BP/Tracker strategy is limited to Matrix6.

Yeah because it's not a real thing that occurs often because there is a mutual understanding to not do it.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Having a rule where people are outright not allowed to do a specific action that a player can reasonably decide to make while still playing to their win condition is frankly ridiculous. It gives a horrible impression of the site as one that can't balance their own setups.

I rather the site give off that impression than the one current site meta is giving off now.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Having a rule where people are outright not allowed to do a specific action that a player can reasonably decide to make while still playing to their win condition is frankly ridiculous. It gives a horrible impression of the site as one that can't balance their own setups.

I rather the site give off that impression than the one current site meta is giving off now.

Open games frequently have claim strategies. EpicMafia is built off of claim strategies. Acting like this is ruining the site is disgraceful.

I've never seen any claim strategy used on Day 1 in all the open setups I've been in since I've joined.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

You can't even catch a cold.

Your voting history regarding me is atrocious. You vote me when I'm town and townread me as scum.

You should really stop trying to brag when you have no grounds.

I caught you as scum before as well in other games. I'm too lazy to pull them up.

Funny how you are trying to turn this into about my skill level when I bring up that I caught you by shit posting.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

You can't even catch a cold.

Your voting history regarding me is atrocious. You vote me when I'm town and townread me as scum.

You should really stop trying to brag when you have no grounds.

I caught you as scum before as well in other games. I'm too lazy to pull them up.

Funny how you are trying to turn this into about my skill level when I bring up that I caught you by shit posting.

You may have voted me for doing something you don't like, but I guarantee it's the same shit I do as town because you can't read my actual scum tells.

Posture all you want, you're no Alisae.

You can't read me either

[Lil Uzi Vert]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

You can't even catch a cold.

Your voting history regarding me is atrocious. You vote me when I'm town and townread me as scum.

You should really stop trying to brag when you have no grounds.

I caught you as scum before as well in other games. I'm too lazy to pull them up.

Funny how you are trying to turn this into about my skill level when I bring up that I caught you by shit posting.

You may have voted me for doing something you don't like, but I guarantee it's the same shit I do as town because you can't read my actual scum tells.

Posture all you want, you're no Alisae.

You can't read me either

Either. Thank you for admitting it.

I'm not the one making unfounded assertions.

You are.

Salt.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Hey Gamma, remember that Newbie we played? We didn't mass claim there did we right?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Having a rule where people are outright not allowed to do a specific action that a player can reasonably decide to make while still playing to their win condition is frankly ridiculous. It gives a horrible impression of the site as one that can't balance their own setups.

I rather the site give off that impression than the one current site meta is giving off now.

...And what exactly is that?

Stop acting obtuse.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I'm test-running Backup6, if anyone​'s interested. It's in signups now in the micro queue.

next marathon day we should just run a bunch of matrix 6 alternatives
it will give some data (even though it obviously won't be some data) but it will probably give a feel for some of the setups that we wouldn't get otherwise

I like this idea.

I don't know how long this setup has been in effect but I like to think it was just a mutual understanding/unwritten rule to not do a strategy like this one. Obviously those people left or don't play anymore, so a window of opportunity opened up for someone to enforce it and we're currently seeing the results of that being left unchecked.

Translation: I want something implemented that I believe already existed at one point and failed hurr de durr.

I don't want anything

I don't play Newbies and it has nothing to do with the current setup.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

IIRC RadiantCowbells came up with it

I'm just pointing out LUV's shit logic.

He's not letting facts get in the way, so I'm trying not to confuse him with them.

The fact is that you haven't provided me with how many scum you caught of the strategy

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don't play Newbies and it has nothing to do with the current setup.

^ Textbook sour grapes.

"My suggestion is being shat upon? I don't play Newbies anyway."

I'm far from salty. Your behavior towards me ever since I suggested it is the definition of salty.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Soft.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Mason seems broken.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Mason seems like it just encourages the BP strategy.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Yeah I want to attempt to start being an IC but this is holding me back. Do the cons outweigh the pros for just replacing BP with UB? Explain like I'm 5.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=71789&start=550

But I never got to track

GG! It was a fun game. Although I don't think a backup is a good alternative for the BP. Especially if you compare it to a doc.

The problem is there is no good replacement for BP.
UB is probably the best I think. Just plain removal didn't work. Fn6 and Rb6 are in signups, and you guys should totes join them, but I'm not sure if they will work much better than this.

Mod; was there scum/dead PTs?

Yeah, although there isn't much there
Dead Thread
Scum Topic
Mod Topic

Regarding UB, I think the only issue is that it might be boring to play. I think the difficulty level here was about what it should be; after a day 1 scum lynch and PR NK, BTD6 had a tough game but by no means impossible if they played well enough. And a doctor would have been even stronger here, but I don't think tracker/backup is scumsided. (Tracker/doctor is townsided if tracker is forced to claim early.)

Considering joining FN6, I think it's an interesting idea.

I just think the chances of the UB actually being able to do anything are kinda low.

Think I'm with Mario here.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

rip

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Oddly banning it still seems the best option

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Was it decided that this just wasn't an issue and didn't need to be changed?

People got lazy and stopped caring.