Fro99er/Alisae's Large Normal

[mastina]

I don't have concerns with normalcy (I think the traitor enabler works), and on a skim the roles/rules look good.
I'm a bit concerned balance-wise though. The gunsmith is largely useless to the town--by the time it's likely to have its full utility (i.e., the traitor enabler is lynched), it'll have burned its shots.

Similarly, the PT-cop is almost detrimental to the town. It gets a guilty on the masons, and it also will end up pseudo-clearing the traitors if they claim their neighborhood. I realize the intention of the mafia-mafia (well, traitor-traitor in this case) neighborhood is for them to be able to communicate to each other, but while they are technically guilties, they can just truthfully claim they hold a neighborhood and this will likely cause townreads on one or both of them. Furthermore, be it pre-conversion OR post-conversion (doesn't matter), the town is going to see one of them flip and think the other one is almost certainly town. They might (incorrectly) make the assumption that it was traitor-groupscum, but mhsmith has the stats (plus I have my own experience) which tells me otherwise; the town might catch one but won't catch them both.

Even if you made the PT-cop a full rather than 2-shot, that wouldn't fix the problem.
I'd drop the scum-scum neighborhood altogether.

Basically what I'd like to see:
-Make the gunsmith full
-Drop the scum traitor neighborhood
-Make the PT-cop either full or at least three-shot
-Maybe even bump the power of the jailkeeper up.

I just think that in the current setup, the town is hilariously underequipped.

[mastina]

Oh, I also just noticed the town's neighbors are

miller

neighbors.
Millers return guilties to gunsmiths as well as cops, so that means the same problem the PT cop has also applies to the gunsmith.

Now I'm all for a game where the town's investigative roles get innocents on scum and guilties on town--if the game has the appropriate balance to accommodate that.
But right now literally the only accommodation against that is the 2x jailkeeper, which is ridiculously weak.

I'd maybe call:
Masons x 2
Neighbors x 2
Gunsmith
PT Cop
Jailkeeper

vs.
Traitors x 2
Mafia Rolecop x2 (even then that might be a bit much)
Mafia Traitor-enabler

...As balanced.

I don't have the same problem RadiantCowbells does with the mechanic. But I do think the town absolutely needs far more power than they have in order to support using said mechanic, because even the above might be light on the town's side.

[mastina]

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
EVen if technically as an enabler that would be 'normal' it's not normal. I will not pass this as is.

The counterpoint to this:

An Enabler has no active abilities, but are told what kind of power role they enable. If they die, that type of ability may no longer be used.

This effect applies to all players with the enabled ability. A Doctor Enabler's death will cause every Doctor in the game to become useless.

Normal Guidelines

This role modifier is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, both with and without its primary role present. Enablers should be used for specific roles, not types of roles (e.g., Doctor instead of protective) and must be self-aware.

From the Enabler page. If the enabled ability is 'traitor', then a traitor ceases to be a traitor.
If a traitor ceases to be a traitor, then they become traitor - traitor. A mafia-aligned player that is without abilities = goon. So traitor, minus being a traitor, creates a goon.

This is why I don't have an issue with normalcy.
I do have an issue with balance though.

[mastina]

Anyway, here's also what mastina said when I asked about this a month or so ago

However, if the Mafia Traitor is just a Mafia Traitor, and your intention is in fact that upon the death of the traitor enabler for the traitor to stop being a traitor, then I believe the traitor would join the mafia team and become a goon. I mean. Alignment changes aren't allowed in Normals, so it's not like the traitor can become a vanilla townie upon the death of the traitor-enabler. Yet the traitor's abilities are:
-Not being able to kill (natural immunity to gunsmith)
-Not being able to communicate
-Being endgamed if the last scum alive thanks to not being able to kill
-Knowing who the scumteam are.

These are the things which I think of as being enabled by a traitor-enabler.
So upon the death of the traitor-enabler, all but the last would go away I'd think...leaving a traitor who is, in fact, now a Vanilla Mafiate...aka, a Goon.

tl;dr: Ambiguous, but if it's what the mod wants, the answer

should

be yes.

And I stand by that answer, but I also stand by my stance that the setup you've given containing this mechanic is as it currently is horribly, tremendously, scumsided and that the town needs a severe boost in power and the scum a nerf in power in order for the mechanic to work.

To put it another way--I think that the mechanic you've created,

in of itself

, is enough power for the mafia altogether. The town doesn't need negative utilities to lessen their powers (miller); the town doesn't need gated roles to lessen their powers (2x); the scum don't need roles to boost their power (neighborhood, maybe rolecop). Because the mafia already have an innately strong, powerful mechanic at their disposal.

[mastina]

Again, mastina's interpretation, with abilities bolded.

I'd like to put out on record that while I do tend to like my interpretations, I am not infallible in them. I am fond of exact words and of literal interpretation of roles so this is something I tend to be good at, but my interpretation is not absolute law; it's simply my personal interpretation and I'm not the head of the NRG; Nexus is, so his word supersedes my own.

I think the key factor in question is whether Traitor is something you can classify as being a role which can be enabled--
Yet I've seen things like "miller enablers", "daytalk enablers" (they're called encryptors), "bulletproof enablers", "ascetic enablers", and similar for passive abilities, which are what the traitor is made out of.

A "traitor enabler" feels like it is a logical extension of the above.
Traitor is a role.
Enablers enable a role.
Upon the death of a traitor-enabler, a traitor ceases to be that role.
So that's why for me personally I don't have an issue with the concept. Yet I'm not the absolute word here.

[mastina]

I think this is fine

(Would need to see role PMs and whatnot before a pass though.)

[mastina]

Macho is ALL protectives regardless of type--rolestopper, jailkeeper, doctor, bodyguard. So yeah protection fails.

[mastina]

You are a Rolecop
During the night, you may target one person. You will learn their role. This may only be used twice per game.

Is it full or is it two-shot? The setup I believe says full.

[mastina]

Well we need to see the current version then.
Once I do though, good to go.

[mastina]

Current version of the role.

[mastina]

Yep, you're good.
/pass.