Kingdom Hearts - Game Over

[Imperium]

Tammy, we miss you...

Hi!

I miss you too, but I'm here now.

Well not for much longer; I'm about to pass out I hope!

[JaeReed]

Titus basing her thoughts on a vote count and misinterpreting the voters' intentions as a result doesn't surprise me (based on her self-stated playstyle of caring more about votes than posts), whereas JaeReed using Titus's misinterpretation to their advantage struck me as manipulative. Downplaying it as not manipulative is incorrect, as Jae wasn't using my RVS vote on S&W as the basis for their SR. They were not presenting a case and asking for votes; they used another person's thoughts to their advantage to try to get a vote. This is literally manipulation, but it's not yet scummy. The scummy part was them taking advantage of Titus's misunderstanding.

Again, I'm baffled by the fact that you seem to believe I'd bother to go back and check why you made the vote. Why can't I make the same misunderstanding that Titus did with just a quick look at the VCs to further my push on someone that isn't playing to their town meta? Better yet, it being RVS but you having posted since without moving it, why would you assume that I'd know your vote is

still

RVS? To see it that way you have to pre-suppose I'm scum. That's starting from a conclusion and fitting the evidence to it, rather than using the evidence to reach a conclusion.

I don't understand your point. How would him assuming that presuppose you're scum?

I probably didn't use my words in the correct way there. What I mean is that I'd not know his vote was still RVS since he posted since then but didn't move it. So there's no way for me to have known that yet he gave Titus a pass for looking at it that way, but not me, because he was starting from the conclusion that I'm scum and working backwards from there. Hence presupposing I'm scum.

[JaeReed]

Coincidentally, I remember I was having trouble wordsing some of that post and I still can't really do it to the extent I'd like to. Which kinda sucks.

[Imperium]

I am very sorry, but I am not going to meet my goal of finishing this game today. I'm on page 70 and lately I've been scrolling past Leon's posts and things about Leon just to try to get to the end and figured I'd go back and read the Leon stuff I missed tomorrow when I don't have a terrible headache and can pay attention better when I'm reading them. So tomorrow I will pick up from 70 and read through the Leon stuff.

Right this second I don't have a super strong scum read that I want blood from, but I am starting to feel shifting and movement in my reads so that's good. My plan is to finish the above in the morning and then work out some of my reads and the stuff shifting about while swimming laps. Regardless, I will have this game finished reading tomorrow and will give my grand thoughts then.

[Imperium]

I know people want us to give names right now, but I want to finish reading and maybe talk with nacho first.

Oh I do want to say that when I said that I liked Creature's post on that day when he said he wouldn't be mislynched, I wasn't talking about thinking he had the confidence to obvtown. My experience with Creature is very limited, and my experience with town him is definitely not one that obvtowns, but my experience with scum him is someone inactive and kinda timid? But I thought he was soft claiming and that's why he thought he wouldn't be mislynched. There have been quite a bit of soft claims though, so I'm not sure what to think about that. I did really like that post about not being able to figure out not mafia though.

[JaeReed]

Mastina usually wouldn't believe a hated claim if you're loved...

Titus can you explain to me where this belief came from? Has mastina in the past not believed a claim in RVS when there have been similar complementary roles? If so, could you please point me to the game(s)?

[JaeReed]

Spoiler: first 4 pages notes of reread

First 3 smith posts in RVS look more confident and natural than I'd expect a scum!smith to be.

Titus' first post feels like town.

Creature casually hopping on smith feels kinda natural from him as well?

R&L's first post doesn't give good vibes, feels too cute and cuddly?

mastina's 31 - the off feeling could be attributed to overuse of sad faces, or because he added it as a PS instead of working it more naturally into his post?

Didn't have feelings about Oversoul's first post, post 34 feels flat though, it doesn't seem to have annoyance about mastina always being wrong on him? I'm not sure if that should have been present at such an early stage in the game though.

post 37 probably not so much aggressive as it is that he's providing real time interaction in a very fluid manner?

42 I kinda like this but I can't pinpoint why. I just kinda don't think the association read was forced? It's one of those things that feels like he kinda just blurted it out in the moment? That kind of feeling to the post.

48 I compared those games and I think the situations are different - your opening post in this game fell kind of flat and didn't have much of an emotional feel to it to me, where your opening in SU2 had feeling behind it, a naturalness that felt like you didn't much care about starting the game on the right foot, so to speak, you just spoke your mind about liking the song. This in comparison was a post which didn't show through any emotion, it comes across as tonally awkward if that makes sense? It doesn't come across as someone who isn't concerned about how they're going to be read for it.
That said, I like that a test was set to see if mastina's reads were genuine, even if it was a misguided one. It reads as someone who genuinely wants to sort mastina's alignment, and I think that also accounts for the tonal flatness, because you did care about how you'd be read off that post by her so it was one that was crafted with intent.

50 & 52 these drew my eye as a sequence for whatever reason but I don't have a reason why other than a strong "I want to note down this sequence for later" feeling.

53 & 54 are also examples of things I wouldn't expect to see from a scum!smith. There's just no...appeasement? This isn't quite the word I want that explains it but I think it's just more likely to come from a town!smith that wants to see where the mastina wagon is going than a scum!smith who I can't see as having much gain from not really wanting to explain the vote at that point in time.

60!! This is linked back to what I said about Oversoul's post quoted here! I feel like this is a really good observation for smith to have made.

61 I don't like this as much but I can't tell if that's just because of how much I'm liking smith's content so far on a reread. 64 doesn't feel contrived though, it feels like a natural reaction. 69 I similarly believe that he actually genuinely believes in what he's pushing there.

82 I should probably note in relation to the above, though. - hopefully will see an answer from Gamma because I can't remember if this was ever followed up on.

83 I don't get why? I've seen games with both hated and loved in them so I'm not sure why Titus thinks they should be mutually exclusive here or why Titus thinks that mastina should think they're mutually exclusive? Is there a game to back up this theory?

{KeySkiies, plantsy}
{mhsmith0}
{Titus, Creature}
{Steven Quartz, Not_Mafia}
{mastina}
{MaxwellPuckett, Imperium, SlySly, Leonshade, Ramcius, itlepip}
{Shiro, Oversoul}

[plantsy]

Like no OK, when half the game has been circling about and half the game being none existent(max,over,not mafia, imperium, yume(though from.the little she has I do think she is town),creature and to some extend mastina and mhsmith )you don't come to me and tell me I am doing fucking nothing >.>

I am sorry if you feel it was unfair, but I called you out because you complained in a way that I felt was trying to put blame somewhere else. Those others have not complained, I do not think, although I have already called out Creature and Maxwell, before you, so I don't know why you say that. You have posts, yes, but I don't feel that you have done anything really substantial. Your push on Maxwell... Max is below null for me, yes, but your jump on that wagon felt scummy to me, and it came after everyone else. So I am at a loss as to what you have done with your own initiative that is pushing this game anywhere. If you are sorting players passively and following the game, that's great. But I don't understand the purpose of trying to blame Imperium for inactivity. You can do things without Imperium. I understand that because I am scumreading your slot I am more likely to think that your motives are not good. So I am sorry if I am misreading your intentions. If it's just your frustration? Okay, I get it. I've been there. If that's the case, feel free to come talk to me if you like, maybe I can help you feel better and more involved.

[Imperium]

Heh I actually hated that observation in post 60 both when smith did it and when I think mastin did it. I pretty much hate that line of questioning in general as it's a pretty stupid observation to make. Oversoul wouldn't be assuming mastin is town at that point anymore than anyone who makes the same observation oversoul made does in any game. It's just a common reaction to, yet again, seeing yourself in someone's scum lists. It's similar to when someone expresses disappointment that someone who can usually read them is reading them wrong.

It's just a reaction which doesn't denote a presumption of the alignment of the other person at all. Smiths was done early enough in the game that I wrote it off as early game pushing but it's something so easy for scum to push at because on the surface it looks like a good observation and sound scumhunting but it really isn't. It's fine to start interaction with, so for early game interaction push it's fine, but making an actual argument with it is garbage.

[JaeReed]

Heh I actually hated that observation in post 60 both when smith did it and when I think mastin did it. I pretty much hate that line of questioning in general as it's a pretty stupid observation to make. Oversoul wouldn't be assuming mastin is town at that point anymore than anyone who makes the same observation oversoul made does in any game. It's just a common reaction to, yet again, seeing yourself in someone's scum lists. It's similar to when someone expresses disappointment that someone who can usually read them is reading them wrong.

It's just a reaction which doesn't denote a presumption of the alignment of the other person at all. Smiths was done early enough in the game that I wrote it off as early game pushing but it's something so easy for scum to push at because on the surface it looks like a good observation and sound scumhunting but it really isn't. It's fine to start interaction with, so for early game interaction push it's fine, but making an actual argument with it is garbage.

It's not the question that I like but the observation itself. Like I know there are players predisposed to scumreading me and it's always annoying in a kneejerk emotional reaction way when it happens, even though I know it'll happen (nancy is a good example of one of these people). What's lacking in Oversoul's post is that emotional reaction that I expect to be there. Annoyance or frustration or amusement or anything really. It reads flat.

[Imperium]

That was what I wanted to talk about when I said yesterday that I wanted to talk about some of the attacks on oversoul by the way. At the time it was one of the things I didn't like about smith. That coupled with the post I had seen where it was post numbers and statements had me feeling twitchy, but I really liked his interactions some pages back which dropped smith out of my scum reads.

[Imperium]

Heh I actually hated that observation in post 60 both when smith did it and when I think mastin did it. I pretty much hate that line of questioning in general as it's a pretty stupid observation to make. Oversoul wouldn't be assuming mastin is town at that point anymore than anyone who makes the same observation oversoul made does in any game. It's just a common reaction to, yet again, seeing yourself in someone's scum lists. It's similar to when someone expresses disappointment that someone who can usually read them is reading them wrong.

It's just a reaction which doesn't denote a presumption of the alignment of the other person at all. Smiths was done early enough in the game that I wrote it off as early game pushing but it's something so easy for scum to push at because on the surface it looks like a good observation and sound scumhunting but it really isn't. It's fine to start interaction with, so for early game interaction push it's fine, but making an actual argument with it is garbage.

It's not the question that I like but the observation itself. Like I know there are players predisposed to scumreading me and it's always annoying in a kneejerk emotional reaction way when it happens, even though I know it'll happen (nancy is a good example of one of these people). What's lacking in Oversoul's post is that emotional reaction that I expect to be there. Annoyance or frustration or amusement or anything really. It reads flat.

It reading flat is something I agree with.

But I don't want to talk too much about what I expect about oversoul as I'm hoping he'll post again tomorrow before I get to discussing him in hopes that I'll have a better read there. I need to double check some very outdated meta, but I think I see shades of what I expect him to be doing if he's town here and I want it to happen organically.

[plantsy]

I am still going to finish the second half of your ISO after I finish catching up but I want to comment on this now.

Meanwhile, after plantsy & Jae's explanation of their argument, I'm willing to tentatively call plantsy town over it.

{KeySkiies, JaeReed}
{Imperium, itlepip, Ramcius, Steven Quartz, Maxwell, plantsy}
{Not_Mafia, Titus, mastina, Shiro, SlySly}
{Creature}
{Oversoul, mhsmith}

Why are you willing to tentatively call me town over that? I don't know, it feels like a soft way to back off a scumread and an easy way to ignore the rest of my content? Also, your reads feel very strange to me. Why are you townreading Maxwell, Ramcius and itlepip? What makes Titus null? I am really uncomfortable how you have Shiro and mastina in null because you say you don't think you can parse FA emotion and you were pocketed by mastina before. I mean, I understand the feeling when you are basing your read on someone because of false meta from an ongoing game where you had the wrong read but I feel like putting mastina just null from it without trying to go any further is just really easy and I wish you did not feel so blasé about your reads.

[plantsy]

I'll also reply to this now...

@plantsy:

I've read your ISO of me, seeing your detailed thoughts has made me more convinced that there's actual substance behind your reads, it's another reason why I've started townreading you. I'm not sure whether you meant your questions as rhetorical or for me to answer, let me know what you want answered.

Okay... but that's all you have to say? They were mostly rhetorical, but I was also interested to see whether you engaged with them and to what extent. I am sorry but I am so underwhelmed by this response from you...

[plantsy]

me: nancy knows I've been dissociating irl and pushed on that therefore she's scum
Plot?: Don't do that

That was me, not Plotinus.

I wish you could read me...

[plantsy]

but I'm scared to jinx it

Ffs

[plantsy]

Also, I just realized the reason why I'm not as confident on Plantsy as I'd like to be is because I don't have a strong scum read I'm feeling great about. Thanks to Nacho for trying to get me to figure out where my hesitation is. Lacking a strong scumread always makes it more difficult for me to believe in my town reads.

I don't know about Plotinus for sure but I feel the same way. I have scumreads but none of them are reads I really believe in yet. That's unusual for me (you've seen me deathtunnel scum on day 1 and have 4 correct hard scumreads within 48 hours) and it's making me uncomfortable but I'm hoping that something clicks at some point and the game starts to make more sense for me. Right now I do have 3 townreads that I really believe in and I guess for the time being the best option I have is to talk with those slots to try to get somewhere together. (You being caught up and Nacho coming back will really really help I hope.)

[Imperium]

Yeah, hopefully starting tomorrow I'll be able to doing that!

Oversoul - are the only games you have since we played two years ago owners market and the lovers game?

[Imperium]

I am really going to sleep now. I've been kinda keeping myself awake to see if anyone would talk to me, but I don't think I can keep my eyes open anymore

[plantsy]

but it's not really necessary; there's a huge town body of work to supplement this i just think that this sequence actually never ever comes from scum

Nacho are you here? Come talk?

[Imperium]

Nachos at work.

[plantsy]

Sleep well Tammy; I hope your headache gets better.

[plantsy]

Sorry for being unclear.

Would you mind talking about why you think Titus could be town? I thought RC's push on FA sucked (it was a good case that didn't actually follow what happened in thread which is good scum play 101 + terrible town play 101) and I thought he could very possibly be scum from it.

I felt the same. In fact there was very little to townread from RC at all, his refusal to talk to me was what bothered me the most, and if he wasn't RC I think he would have been widely scumread for his play. RC unfortunately does do these terrible plays as town. But I reset the read when RC replaced out. I don't want to go back and read the slot. I don't want to read any more RC posts ever if I can avoid it. My townread of Titus is due to her head. It's my weakest townread and one that I haven't done a lot of work on yet, but it's nonetheless above null. I don't think I scumread anything from her head even while I was scumreading RC, I like her real-time interactions, and she has softed some sort of role that I struggle to see as being from scum. I can talk about this more later (I'm very time poor right now) but that's the most basic overview.

[plantsy]

thinking back on rc's replace out it felt like he was angry that nancy misread him.

I don't really agree with this. He knew that I hadn't locked his alignment. I think he knew why I was scumreading him, too. He was just being obstinate.

[plantsy]

thinking back on rc's replace out it felt like he was angry that nancy misread him.

I don't really agree with this. He knew that I hadn't locked his alignment. I think he knew why I was scumreading him, too. He was just being obstinate.

I've talked about this with nancy this morning and I'm going to trust her on this one because she knows him better than I do; the replace out was null. I do want to reread Titus later but not right now.

The cat is worse today and I'm feeling worse too and I need to disengage for a bit (who knows whether I actually will disengage but I need to.)