Kingdom Hearts - Game Over

[Imperium]

Imperium, we're really excited to be playing with you again and we are hoping to pick up where we left off at the end of last time and be an unstoppable town force together by the start of day 2. Please be town!!!

Nancy and Plotinus!

We are town. I hope you're town too and we all click like last time. Also, I'm feeling a little jealous that we've been talking about hydrating for a while now and never have

Anyway, I literally just searched to see if anyone talked to us yet and that's all, and when I saw it was you guys that reached out I couldn't not say hi.

I am pretty busy at the moment, so you probably won't see much of me for the first half? of day one. I don't know we'll see how that goes, but now that I see you guys are here I'll try to make time. I imagine nacho will be poking his head in here in the next day or so though.

[Imperium]

Oh also hi oversoul! I'm really glad you're back

[Imperium]

friend nacho or nacho friend

I'm planning to catch up on this game after rest and maybe ~activities~ so I'm afraid this question won't be answered in the immediate future, but it will be answered.
Is nacho friend the bad guy?

[Imperium]

I'm catching up in here now!

First things first is that we are Hercules, a Modified Gladiator. If we target and lynch scum correctly, we gain an investigative; if we target and lynch town, we become Macho. I have every intention of using my role today (assuming I'm not left in a position where I just feel terrible about all scumreads); it requires there still being 72 hours on the deadline timer for me to use it and I'll be giving my targets notice well in advance.

[Imperium]

Statler and Waldorf is a fantastic gimmick so far; I am immensely glad that they are aware of the concept of pacing (which means that they have readable content in between the gimmick posts) and good humor. I will struggle to lynch them early.

Mastina's thought process on Creature in this post, has a bit higher confidence than I would have in her place but I 100% agree with her thought process thus far.

@KeySkiies:
I don't think Mastina's role claim is at all alignment indicative; it's very likely a true claim thanks to how incredibly easy it is to test but I think a stronger indicator of her being town this game is her opening thoughts on Creature/Smith.

@mhsmith0:
Early townreads on mastina aren't exactly made of the sternest stuff, but I liked her take on your early hated claim quite a bit; your "i'm hated even though I thought people liked me!!" was so lame that it actually came off as fake and stilted to me. Her next significant read was the Creature read, and I think her reasoning for it was absolutely spot on; Creature has this easy sort of confidence as town that he doesn't have even a shred of as scum (from my very limited experience with him) and while "she's having the same thought process as me!" isn't something that will hold up lategame as reasoning for her being town having my first two thoughts of the game in her first two real posts is at least deserving of a town-nod, whatever the hell that means.

The partner tell Gamma talks about here is pretty incredibly reachy but it has genuine vibes to it so I'm going to tell myself that I'm not trying to find reasons to townread them and let it stand for now.

Smith's early engagement in general is looking pretty good (and while I don't really share the same FA worries she does, mastina says the smith read immediately after I think it - again, not as alignment indicative as I'd like to be but it's making me chuckle so I'm pointing it out).

Creature townvibes are gone on a bad day, dying out on a good one. I don't like that it seems like his momentum fizzled out pretty much immediately.

Oversoul starting the game with the grumpy interactions with mastina seems like something slightly more likely to come from town than scum; doesn't seem like he's trying to make friends or be cute and cuddly.

[Imperium]

why i have bad feeling about this? Oh, right, on page 1 there is description of similar role, but that's scum one

Gladiator roles are different from bookie roles.
If you're pointing out that scum gladiator would have excellent synergy with scum bookie role, well that's a significant part of the reason I'm using it Day 1.

[Imperium]

Gladiator is a role that is publicly confirmed by the moderators, so unless we are a gladiator-bookie, this is impossible.

[Imperium]

I'll be around a pretty long time today unless people who told me I couldn't do it are actually correct! Maybe I'll catch you if you're in a mafia mood when you wake up.

[Imperium]

Preflop associations sounds like something you'd SR.

SlySly, what did you mean that preflip associations sound like something Gamma would scumread? Were you implying that Gamma would normally scumread people who offered up preflip associations, or...?
Why did you FoS Radiant instead of voting one of the two scumreads you expressed?

Sly including "voting town in RVS" as part of his Radiant case here is something that I find to be an exceptionally weak and bullshit point - I don't like the case as a whole, but that part stands out in a special way.

@itlepip:
It wouldn't surprise me if some of the conviction behind smith's early pushes was fake, but that obviously wouldn't make him scum. Why vote him here?

Spoiler: response to plantsy's posts because they are my favorite

it feels like he's butting in.

Normally the problem with butting in is that you're getting in the way of someone else's answer; here Boon was asking Rylai why they thought mastina was forced and smith asked Boon why they thought mastina was town so there wasn't actually any interference there.

It feels like you're constructing a narrative in which mastina is scum and you're looking at everybody else through the light of mastina and all of your reads are based on mastina and their interactions with her. It feels really one dimensional and easy.

This is similar to itlepip's observation. I think that while mhsmith0 might be playing up his suspicions a bit, that dishonesty doesn't necessarily equal scum.

SQ's push on mastina here is a bit in left field (lots of things change how we respond to posts in a game, which include our mood at the time and different expectations on who we're playing with), but the overall push feels vaguely genuine. I'm not sure what Yume's general opinion of mastina is but the push to sort her early definitely seems like a townie perspective.

My early townread on Ramicus is one that hangs almost entirely on tone; I like his recent pushes on me for being a bookie-gladiator (I think), and I like how he pushes the Yume read here with the same conviction.

Yume's frustration here that someone isn't taking the time to interpret and think about her case properly is also something I think happens more often from town than not; she could just be scum that's proud in the push she's faking but I think it's likelier that she's town who thinks she has a legitimate line of pursuit and Ramicus is damaging that by making her case seem worse than it actually is.

@keyen:
Why did you townread smith early? What were your concerns on Rylai?

@itle:
What are you talking about here?

@keyen:
We're not scum this time! Tammy's pumped about it and I think I'm glad as long as Plotinus and nancy aren't secretly playing Pocket Monsters.

I never said I townread you

I said RC mentioning meta there at that point was towny

There are a couple points this game where Rylai goes "I didn't suspect you, I just said you were suspicious" or this post. I'm personally guessing that it's not alignment indicative but it's weird and so I'm noting it and hoping the head of this hydra that's actually good at town can give me some more productive feedback on it.

A lot of the RC-FA interactions early game to me are mostly meaningless to me. RC's assertion that FA as town would attempt to sort out their hydra first thing is an assertion that sounds logical enough, but trotting out the "you're not reading me yet" card on page 10 seems premature in general. Her saying RC using meta was "towny" is a weird statement to be sure, but I don't know if a weird statement means that she has a strong chance of being scum; this is the type of thing I would have asked her to elaborate on if she was still around. FA accuses RC of having an early game FA push; this is something I can buy thanks to the RC-Postie interactions that I've seen (which might not be indicative of their meta together as a whole but on average it seems like he suspects her a bit more than he should and tends to push aggressively to form/solidify reads on her). Her saying that she'd prefer to let the game solve RC or read the slot through Titus is something that seems a bit questionable because I'd expect FA to have pride in her ability to read RC, but this is an intuitive guess and also falls in the "something I'd like to talk to her about" category so overall the most honest thing I can do is shrug and wait to read on other things.

[Imperium]

well, when i see confirmation, then i believe your claim

This is an odd perspective to take. Why would we claim a role that could and should be confirmed on Day 1 if we couldn't actually confirm it (and need to confirm it before 72 hours to deadline)?

[Imperium]

Can you explain what you were talking about in 173?

[Imperium]

Asking what "various reason" we could have to claim a confirmable role that we're supposed to confirm on Day 1 if we can't actually confirm that role.

[Imperium]

@Mastina:
What in your ISO dive bothered you here?

Now. Frozen Angel admitted she was changing her style, yes. But the thing is, the old Frozen Angel I'd expect to have not only substance but also emotion. The "changing her style" excuse works for the latter; its absence doesn't alarm me given that. It does NOT, however, work for the former, which is where my main beef with her is.

This isn't the sense I got from reading her posting.

-Although it wasn't an explicit scumread, this post is her pressing into a negative feeling on how you described your smith read; while it's not something I agree with personally, I don't see how it's any less valid a line of pursuit than your view on smith's early posts.
-This is FA pushing back against S&W for Gamma's push on her which I think is a pretty reasonable line especially considering how bonkers the partner tell bit was.
-This post has FA calling Titus out for something that Titus pressed that was incorrect and sees her pressing smith to elaborate a bit more on his read on you.
-This post has a strange RC read, but also has a read on you where she townreads you for understanding where she's coming from in her scumread on her (a misconception, but one that is based on you talking about that you expected to be scumread and thus one that's pretty reasonable as a whole), and she townreads you for having nuanced reads on people who are townreading and scumreading you (again based on that misconception, but still seems genuine).

And I could go on, but I think this is enough to establish that you saying she has no substance isn't exactly accurate; you can argue that her content is weak or misguided but I don't think it makes sense to say that it just wasn't there.

My supreme beyond anything else issue is that she's claimed a townread, hasn't reevaluated that townread in the face of me pushing on her, and has given no indication of why.

I also don't think that this is entirely accurate: in 224 she explicitly said that she wasn't townreading you and in 228, 232, 235 and other posts are instances where she is asking you questions and attempting to sort you. There's, of course, an argument to be made if you say that it rings fake because you just think she's trying to appease you, but I don't really think this happened the way you said it did.

I agree with the general sentiment behind #324; Jae's entrance is flat and boring and doesn't really align with the town!Jae I'd expect.

@Jae:
Why did you naked vote Rylai when you knew that it would make mastina paranoid of you? Wouldn't it have been more productive for you to explain what you were doing? Could you walk me through why you were townreading mastina at this point?

Spoiler: plantsy response!

she is as scum then she would potentially be displaying signs of cognitive dissonance and tonally would be awkward and off-kilter but I don't get either of those feelings from her

I think that I'm pretty much on board with the first paragraph except I wouldn't really be expecting those red flags to be in place if FA was scum here; I find things like her pushback on S&W to be reasonable and justified and pretty clean looking but it's not something that pushes her further into town to me, it just doesn't make me think scum. I have a similar behavior about her general behavior around the lover claim - not scummy, doesn't push her into town.

I'd expect her to make more noise about Gamma's bad vote if she were scum, for instance, rather than continue to engage with the thread on a no-agenda basis.

I do think this is a good point, though; she dropped that push pretty quickly even though she was in the right making it and you're right that it'd be pretty tempting for scum to keep hammering on that point.

she feels invested in the sorting value this interaction has.

This resonates with me - there's a lot of talk from Max/Pip/RC saying that she's not interested in determining RC's alignment, but it seems pretty clearly that she is?

Overall, this is pretty reasonable analysis and seeing reasonable analysis from you this early is not really what I'm used to from you - what prompted the playstyle change here?

[Imperium]

Asking what "various reason" we could have to claim a confirmable role that we're supposed to confirm on Day 1 if we can't actually confirm that role.

i asking myself why you put town under pressure so early in D1 - we have no right for mistake in today's lynch or you'll become sitting duck for scum team. Wouldn't be better wait for later day, when we have more info to work with or a guilty, if we lucky, so you'll have much higher chance get your ability?

Several reasons.
For one, I think that using it on Day 1 when there is no possible way that we can set up a scum bookie is important; as scum, securing that extra kill would be important for me and setting it up via the gladiate is one very possible route I could get there and so using it now before that worry comes into play is kind of a "good faith" action, if that makes sense.
Secondly, I'm hydraing with Tammy - you might not know her but she's been having some excellent games lately and I can't really remember a time with her recently where she didn't end with scum on her radar - maybe by myself I don't have the greatest chances of hitting scum but with guaranteed strong support in her + additional strong townies in the game I feel much better about hitting scum than I would otherwise.
Finally (and this one is a secret so don't tell anyone), it's not really the worst thing in the world if we don't hit scum Day 1. I'm hoping increased pressure means we generate a little more information then we would normally and if we fail we're a free kill for scum and a glorified VT which isn't the worst thing in the world while if we succeed scum is down very early and we're sitting with an investigation in our pockets.

[Imperium]

@Jae:
Could you talk to me about your Radiant townread as well?

@itlepip:
"Aggressively bad" seems like you're overselling it pretty hard but if you have reasons beyond your early "I feel his mastina push is fake" stuff I'd be interested in hearing them.

JaeReed instead of fake gamesolving around a narrative where I am scumbuds with FA, why don't you do any actual scumhunting and express why you scumread either of us?

While you're at it feel free to explain why you seem so convinced that we're teamed and yet are calling for votes Leonshade for as yet unstated reasons.

At this point? No.
I'll talk to my townreads about our reads and try to hash it out with them.
I'm not bowing to a scumread blatantly shade throwing and attempting to discredit me.

As Creature would say:
Error. Your mislynch target is too town.

I'm pretty close to fading away so apologies if this post doesn't make any sense whatsoever but you're the closest thing I have to a significant scumread right now and I wanted to get some words down now that explained why at least a little bit. Right now, my major concern with you is that your focus is currently too narrow; this isn't a significant charge considering how young the game still is but where I'm hoping to see gamesolving I'm just seeing reads on select people. I'm also not really getting much out of your individual reads currently; I don't really see why you're townreading Mastina or Radiant at this point and I don't understand your pushes on plantsy and Leonshade and feel if you're town here the best way I'll be able to see it is by being let into your process just a little bit more if that makes sense.

[Imperium]

And I'm only 6 pages away from being caught up and the end is so tantalizingly close but I need to find some way to recharge my batteries without sleeping before I'm able to both come back and make sense.

[Imperium]

Boy oh boy are you wrong. (I don't know about plantsy as this head has read like three posts this game, so no reads yet but maybe soon!)

[Imperium]

Oh I can give a little context to your concern there. Recently the four of us played a game at my homesite and nacho, Plotinus and I town read each other hard as hell and that was part of the reason we won that game in the end.

[Imperium]

Oh I can give a little context to your concern there. Recently the four of us played a game at my homesite and nacho, Plotinus and I town read each other hard as hell and that was part of the reason we won that game in the end.

I understood the context. I get getting along with players. But this is played up beyond reality and you guys both share reads that I not only disagree with I can't understand even the possibility of you guys holding. This is the first time I've ever played with Jae where I could confidently say yeah that slot's town and all of a sudden you're all scumreading them?

Plantsy is a hefty scumread independent of all that. And I have had a feeling since the start of the game that this was going to be a game where scum tried to block with each other so.

Well I don't have any reads yet and all I know is what nacho has talked to me about. I don't think nacho has any confident reads at this moment and is more trying to get his footing. Just give us some time please, I'm confident that when I start actually posting any concern about us will be gone, I just don't have the time to do that right now.

[Imperium]

Even your reaction to the assertion feels way played up.

Um I don't know how not played up that can get. I gave you context for something I didn't think you understood. It's not about getting along, the force of our correct reads on each other and our town block is why town won in the end.

Plants saying that is town either hoping for that recreation or scum trying to manipulate us.

I feel like we'll be able to figure it out.

[Imperium]

^^ please don't take that for being rude, I've been misunderstood a lot lately, I just really wasn't playing anything up.

[Imperium]

Ah, well that's literally what I thought when I read that post. I have a tendency to speak out loud.

[Imperium]

Plotinus, I am awake: I am sorry for falling asleep on you but I just couldn't take it anymore (don't even remember falling asleep!). I'm here if you need me but otherwise I'm probably going to spend a bit of time doing other things.

[Imperium]

I personally think it would have been hilarious if I responded to the"you're not a gladiator" claims with gladiating the shit out of him but I thought his later responses regarding it seemed pretty genuine.

[Imperium]

Question: is the gladiator one-shot or repeatable?

One-shot.

[Imperium]

Jae, I'm more than happy with you as a townread now. I do think that my read on you looks similar to my read on you in Fractals (if I'm remembering correctly), but the scum indicative part of that read wasn't the initial piece (it was a reasonable read to provide based on not having enough information), but the fact that I didn't back off when there was more than enough reason to do so.

I can rehash my reasons for scumreading you initially if you'd like but if you're just looking to feel comfortable townreading us I'm pretty confident that'll happen later anyways.

[Imperium]

Imperium, are you sure you could win duel against me?

Hydraing with Tammy, so we won't be getting mislynched this game even if we accidentally gladiate Sora.

[Imperium]

Because I know when I've made town posts and when I've made scum posts and that post was just about the towniest thing I've said the whole fucking game.

arguable

[Imperium]

Honestly? I wouldn't mind some direction on where to place my vote.

Ramicus's approach to us and our gladiator claim seems townier than not. It seems like an odd scenario for him to be scum and see someone claim a confirmable role and go "I don't think you're telling the truth; I think you're scum bookie" - not coming from the perspective of someone that knows we are town, especially when he has reasonable enough reasons for thinking so.

If Oversoul wants to townblock with Tammy and I then he needs to put a bit more work in. His interactions centered around mastina (and getting mad at her misread of him) seem vaguely genuine and thus town and there's nothing else that stands out but that's certainly not enough to hang a proper read on.

Leonshade's recent posting looked okay and his general posting is about keeping pace with what I'm expecting out of him.

I don't really have a read on RC. I think there are problems in his approach to FA that we now can't talk about and I think that he was pretty transparently hunting by association on FA in a lot of places (scumreads on us, plant + townread on you seemed almost entirely based on our respective stances on FA) which is sort of ridiculous in and of itself but I don't really have a good idea on his general approach in games since we don't tend to play much together at all. Titus being stubborn about a read isn't the most surprising thing in the world and I haven't made observations on when she does/when she doesn't provide wagon analysis.

[Imperium]

People who I'd be comfortable voting/people who I'm heavily considering as scum right now are Creature, Oversoul, and Sly.

Don't really like Creature's "I'm just going to say that I'm bored and not do anything" approach to the game right now; I liked the same post mastina liked for the same reasons she liked it and so there's still a decent chance that he could be town, but my plan to dealing with him isn't "ignore him and hope he decides to care about the game eventually" (as Leonshade seems to be doing).

Expecting a lot more from Oversoul at this point; my memory of his typical play is that he looks pretty town when he puts his mind to it but he's nowhere there quite yet; would probably spend a little time digging into what stances he's given so far and seeing if he has any interesting thoughts that he just hasn't been sharing.

There are a couple stances and pushes Sly has made this game that have been ridiculous which isn't necessarily alignment indicative but there's typically an emotional edge around his posting centered around some of his scumreads and that tends to crop up when he's pushed so I'm waiting for that to happen. This is the lowest priority of the three since he seems to be the only one that will actually produce and do things on his own.

[Imperium]

i don't know who's Sora

Sora is confirmed to be in the game and Town.

[Imperium]

Acknowledging prod, sorry. Nacho might get in here later. Maybe i will too!

[Imperium]

Hi!

I have read a smattering of posts here or there, usually it's whatever is on the page when I'm lying down to go to bed. I've seen that Key claimed sora so we wouldn't gladiate him, which is very unfortunate because I don't think that nacho had him on his radar at all. Though we haven't really talked about the game at all because of how little I've read. I did see that slysly is informed neighbor. I would not put it past tth to make a scum informed neighbor, though I'm not saying he's definitely scum, but last summer in tth's gumball game scum were informed that a particular person was a particular character. Though I don't think that character was an IC. Anyway for him I'd say read the play not the role because it is something I could see happening. Also did slyly tell key that he knew who he was before it was outed? That would be nice to know.

Anyway I do know that nacho thought creature might be town but creature's insistence he's not getting mislynched this game kinda sounds a little too indignant for creature scum? I don't know, nacho was scum with creature in laundry mafia, so let him be the judge of creature's posts closer to this day.

ramcius also is probably just town for paranoia about sora (reminds me sort of of my townslip in team mafia) along with not realizing that gladiator is a confirmable role and that the bookie role almost definitely is not in use right now as there was no night zero.

woo hoo thoughts!

[Imperium]

*nacho thought that creature might be scum...

[Imperium]

Tammy, I know you and Nacho are busy and I have no real authority behind my request but please suggest a gladiate pool with at least 3 names, even if it's total fiction or includes me. I think the game is too passive because no one fears death.

I would particularly request it meaningless.

I know gameflow is not my expertise but this flow reminds me of when I would get guilties in Wake's role madness.

Meaningless = reasonless.

If this happens, I'm sure it will be a thing that nacho does. And I know that he's not going to just gladiate someone without talking about it and making the intent known in advance. (Which is why key didn't need to claim, I don't think nacho was concerned about him and would have given him a chance to claim regardless).

I'm kinda tempted to just jump in and this point and not read but I know my ocd-ish nature won't let me do that for long.

[Imperium]

So nacho was going to post here last night, but he fell asleep. I'm hoping he will be here tonight. I will hopefully be here tomorrow.

[Imperium]

So nacho was going to post here last night, but he fell asleep. I'm hoping he will be here tonight. I will hopefully be here tomorrow.

Nacho does have plans to catch up here tonight! Let's hope he stays awake

And I'm still hoping to start making actual appearances tomorrow/next day.

[Imperium]

Oh nice, guess we'll never find a way to sort Statler and Wardolf's slot anymore.

I liked this post!

[Imperium]

I'm sorry nacho did not come here yesterday like I said he would. He got distracted

Anyway I will be active here from here on out. I'll try to get some real barrings in this game in the next day or two!

[Imperium]

I'm also hoping nacho will be here today as well!

[Imperium]

I'm going to start reading this game tonight. I'm about to crash though, so I will read until I fall asleep. I doubt I'll get all ~70 pages read tomorrow, but I'm hoping to get a good deal of it read. I'm going to keep as many thoughts to myself as I can, but apologies ahead of time if I quote something from way back or ask a question that's already been answered. If that does happen, feel free to ignore my question and I'll get to it when I get to it and if I need more clarification I'll ask again

[Imperium]

Martina is literally always wrong about me every time. Every time.

are you playing from an iPhone?

This has literally nothing to do with the game, but lately whenever I've typed mastina on my phone or iPad it autocorrects it to martina. so irritating.

[Imperium]

who is yume in this game?

[Imperium]

thank you!

Hi Plantsy!

[Imperium]

tammy

[Imperium]

No

I'm only on page five and I rarely get anything out of the first 5-10 pages because most everything reads so fake to me. But I'll be more active in the game from here on out and I'm hoping to get at least half, if not more, of this game read today, so next time we're both on I should.

[Imperium]

I do use capital letters a good deal of the time!

[Imperium]

Good night Nancy!

[Imperium]

Also this is in the very least against the spirit of the game, but if Mastina is alive and active around 5p-7p, voting for someone and then being active for the short period afterward to unvote if we get a votecount in the middle would tell us how many are alive. If you did a few 10-20 minute chunks, the chance of mafia voting is pretty low.

I don't want to forget this post exists.

[Imperium]

Hi, Tammy! Have you read the game? I understand that Nacho is busy, but are you busy as well? Even if Nacho can't play, I'd like to know why you're not playing, either.

I said in sign ups that nacho would be driving this game, and in my first post here that I wouldn't be able to post for about the first half of day one as i was busy. I have time now, so I'm catching up now.

I'm in the process of reading now though. I'm on page 14, so I'm on track for finishing my goal of at least getting the game half read or more today.

I feel like I've said this a couple times already though

[Imperium]

scums don't make policy votes

Hello, I'm Sly, nice to make your acquaintance.

Ending the game of your nemesis is sweet regardless of alignment. It's just sweeter when you are town and they are scum.

Hello, Sly, is this amnesiac crumb? Cause we met twice already in Timeshifted and Surreptitious

scums can't PL, they know who's on their team. Sure you could argue that traitor is a thing and maybe some other possible mechanics, when scum don't know each other, but in here we know there are 4 scums, they know each other, so they can't PL, they can buss or try get ML, PL is a town thing

How do you know there are four scum in the game?

[Imperium]

Don't anyone else answer that question. thank you!

[Imperium]

Actually it doesn't matter because he accused of us being the bookie too so he definitely read the op. I was considering Ramcius's post about Sora maybe being scum as a pretty strongly decent town slip because of not reading the opening post, but he knows there's four scum (it's the first thing in the opening post) and knows about bookie (it's in the last paragraph in opening post). Sora being town is the second line right beneath the four scum. So, he's read the whole thing; therefore, claiming that sora might still be scum is not a townslip in the way I had previously argued.

I was thinking it was along the lines of when I didn't read the "you know these people are in the game" role pms because I misread and thought they were sample role pms so I didn't care and didn't read them. But it's obvious he read it. Maybe he forgot, but it's definitely not the townslip that I thought it was.

which is fairly boo.

[Imperium]

I'm at the top of 24, but I need to take a break before I just start glazing over words while I read.

I'm keeping my thoughts to myself until I get to the halfway point at the very least, but I imagine I'll give some thoughts today and if I don't get completely caught up today then I will tomorrow.

[Imperium]

Made it to my halfway goal! Don't think I'm staying awake much longer so I'll finish up and talk about more thoughts tomorrow.

I'm past the part when mastina starts to doubt her scum read on jaereed. Jae feels fine to me? I understand the flat point at the beginning. Jaereed just feels like they had an idea of how this game would go or how mastina and them would interact if they were both town. Sitting back and watching mastina's entrance without interacting especially when it's a tough day to get a read feels reasonable and not out of the ordinary. I've done observational analysis plenty of times. Jae then feels like they ended up getting confused and maybe a little frustrated at being scum read and maybe a bit disappointed that it's not going how they hoped?

Maybe none of that is accurate, but that's what it felt like was fraying around the edge of their posts through all of that. And it makes me feel like they're just town.

A great deal of my reads are still in formation mode. Things feel a little weird this game because it's in fracture mode, which is fine for me at the stage I'm at in the game but also a little weird because I wasn't here to experience it so drawing the circles isn't as easy right now. I think the key's sora claim is coming up soon, so maybe I'll start to see a shift with some coalescing soon.

[Imperium]

Oh note for myself to remember I want to talk about early oversoul treatment.

[Imperium]

That's depressing. Hopefully we can help fix that!

[Imperium]

Why do you have imperium as almost certainly town?

Their role and the way you're using it + The early claim + I feel like with both heads prodging it is somewhat encouraging that Tammy's taking point + 597 felt towner than not. I like the tone in which Nacho talked about his reads. I don't have him as locktown (though nancy does) because I need more data; I feel like Nacho can go for a while without dropping the tells I have on him but he can't go forever without it and if he had more than that one spurt of posting eleven days ago then I'd be sure by now but I'm not.

+ some other things.

Okay thanks. I was worried about a theory I had where they claimed the gladiate to force a gamestate where no one is afraid of a lynch to make d1 worth less, but in going to respond to you with it just now I realized it's probably just paranoia because they haven't been here because it doesn't make sense in a world where they're not lurking and I don't think they would lurk strategically to this level for that theory to be correct.

Which means I'm still back at needing to reread and 70 pages or so is a lot for me. :/

I read this post this morning when I was very unpleasantly woken up briefly by Waffles coughing up a fur ball, and I really liked it. Two things. Heh Plotinus talks about liking that I'm taking point right now, really there is no easier way to tell we're just town. It's simply this easy. If I'm in a hydra with nacho and I'm taking point, we're town.

Other thing, I love this bit of paranoia here. I think it was sparked by an earlier suggestion that people weren't coalescing because they're not afraid of death and I think that's looney land theory; I think more likely this game just doesn't have a strong center that has developed to direct the game some. It's not my favorite position to take, but if I'm right on what is lacking this game, I'll try to give it some direction when I finish getting caught up, which should be today! But the reason why I liked the theory is that it's such a nice paranoid theory that isn't possibly something we could hope would happen. I've never seen a game just dissolve into worthlessness because someone claimed a gladiator role, and we could never possibly believe that it would.

When I talked to nacho this morning about this post and tried to find it to read it to him so he could fully experience the paranoia theory properly, his response was that I didn't need to read it to him and could paraphrase because you were his strongest town read, which surprised me a bit because I did not know that as we haven't really had much time to talk about this game and he's expressed his paranoia thoughts on people, but those are things that don't really make it into thread for him. Anyway I mention this to you because I think you got a really wrong impression of him early game. I think it was you that postulated that he was trying to break up an impending town block, which is something that I don't think either of us care about to even try to do as scum in the first place and is usually just the case of people being suspicious of people anyway, but yeah he had some suspicions on you based on entrance things early game which were quite heavily relieved by your interaction at the start of the game.

I also think you missed out on/didn't catch nacho sorting Plantsy, him asking why about the play style change or things he thought were out of the ordinary were him trying to sort that.

Anyway, I've seen you mention that you're town reading plantsy in part because she accused you of lying about something that as scum she would know you weren't lying about. Can you point that out to me? If it's in the spoiler, don't bother but if you could paraphrase that point to me, please do. Nacho says both of you are near confirmed town levels due to the emotional stuff and I'd like to lean on that but I'd really like a little more understanding of your read there. I'm not feeling as confident in that read as I'd like to.

[Imperium]

I'm drinking in the afternoon, yay! And I'm catching up. I'm only about 30 pages behind right now, so I'm still on track to get caught up today!

[Imperium]

*breaking up town blocks by randomly suspecting or questioning one of them at the start of the game

is really more of the context for that

[Imperium]

I'm sorry it's hot!

I also hope your kitty is better

[Imperium]

I didn't know you were ill; I'm glad you're feeling better too

[Imperium]

The short answer is, I love you and don't be afraid of hurting me because I promise you actually just can't <3

As town here nancy would back up a little and wonder if maybe it was just the dissociation messing with her read. Instead, she doubled down at a time where she knew I couldn't emotionally respond because my emotions were locked off from me and I was struggling to get them back.

Don't do this. This was an awesome post but that is low.

Trying to make 330 an AI post is also fucking digusting. Just don't. You should fucking know better I care about you way more than any fucking mafia game jesus christ

@Tammy

[Imperium]

but it's not really necessary; there's a huge town body of work to supplement this i just think that this sequence actually never ever comes from scum

[Imperium]

Thank you!

Also, I just realized the reason why I'm not as confident on Plantsy as I'd like to be is because I don't have a strong scum read I'm feeling great about. Thanks to Nacho for trying to get me to figure out where my hesitation is. Lacking a strong scumread always makes it more difficult for me to believe in my town reads.

Hopefully that will change as I get fully caught up.

[Imperium]

Oh the thank you is to jaereed.

[Imperium]

But he was probably town after all.

?

[Imperium]

Sorry for being unclear.

Would you mind talking about why you think Titus could be town? I thought RC's push on FA sucked (it was a good case that didn't actually follow what happened in thread which is good scum play 101 + terrible town play 101) and I thought he could very possibly be scum from it.

[Imperium]

...and I know you felt similarly so I feel like hearing why you changed your mind on the read could help me too.

[Imperium]

Oversoul is a nullread of nullness, I quick ISOed to remember what they were even doing. Meh coasting a lot could be anything, I kinda don't like how they wanted to be townblocked so early with Imperium.

for context here, Oversoul and I get along pretty well and we've been on the same team for team mafia the last two times it was run. It makes perfect sense that he'd hope to sync up with me in particular.

I will say I'm not sure we're exactly

great

at reading each other. I'm probably the easier read, while I have some markers for how he looks at the game that should help. I'm not yoda at reading him though.

[Imperium]

Welp I just read 12 pages all of it felt like a Mastina iso before getting some awful Ram posts and a few nice Jae posts. Right now I am almost at a point where I just kinda want Mastina dead by like d5 or so because a lot of her content isn't that great, but it makes her insanely hard to lynch. It is a lot of angry rebuttals to attacks and a long list of better lynch targets with decent cases on all of them. Basically Mastina right now can probably win a 1v1 versus anyone with maybe the exception of late game plot (who is just so much more nothing this game than I have ever seen from either alignment). I wanted to post something interesting here but those are all my thoughts from that. Mastina just really scares me

Are you scum reading mastin?

[Imperium]

I've never been good at finding scum (except for newb scum for whatever reason). So I'll just stick with trying to form the best town bloc. From strongest to weakest. Most people are null this game.

KeySkies
SlySly
Imperium (Tammy don't make me regret this)
itlepip
Jae

Why were you scum reading slysly before? Is the only thing moving him up his claim?

Also I might have a question about your plantsy/itlpip/ramcius thing because I think I'm following but not sure, but I have a terrible headache right now and this is kind of a reminder to read tomorrow when head doesn't feel like it's been hit with a hammer.

[Imperium]

I initially townread both itlepip and Ramcius for the townslips but itlepip overplayed it, and when he was corrected and told that the number of scum were in the OP, he seemed to ignore it and continued to act like we still couldn't know how many scum were alive to the point that it stretched plausibility.

Something I want to come back to or comment on.

[Imperium]

Titus basing her thoughts on a vote count and misinterpreting the voters' intentions as a result doesn't surprise me (based on her self-stated playstyle of caring more about votes than posts), whereas JaeReed using Titus's misinterpretation to their advantage struck me as manipulative. Downplaying it as not manipulative is incorrect, as Jae wasn't using my RVS vote on S&W as the basis for their SR. They were not presenting a case and asking for votes; they used another person's thoughts to their advantage to try to get a vote. This is literally manipulation, but it's not yet scummy. The scummy part was them taking advantage of Titus's misunderstanding.

Again, I'm baffled by the fact that you seem to believe I'd bother to go back and check why you made the vote. Why can't I make the same misunderstanding that Titus did with just a quick look at the VCs to further my push on someone that isn't playing to their town meta? Better yet, it being RVS but you having posted since without moving it, why would you assume that I'd know your vote is

still

RVS? To see it that way you have to pre-suppose I'm scum. That's starting from a conclusion and fitting the evidence to it, rather than using the evidence to reach a conclusion.

I don't understand your point. How would him assuming that presuppose you're scum?

[Imperium]

Tammy, we miss you...

Hi!

I miss you too, but I'm here now.

Well not for much longer; I'm about to pass out I hope!

[Imperium]

I am very sorry, but I am not going to meet my goal of finishing this game today. I'm on page 70 and lately I've been scrolling past Leon's posts and things about Leon just to try to get to the end and figured I'd go back and read the Leon stuff I missed tomorrow when I don't have a terrible headache and can pay attention better when I'm reading them. So tomorrow I will pick up from 70 and read through the Leon stuff.

Right this second I don't have a super strong scum read that I want blood from, but I am starting to feel shifting and movement in my reads so that's good. My plan is to finish the above in the morning and then work out some of my reads and the stuff shifting about while swimming laps. Regardless, I will have this game finished reading tomorrow and will give my grand thoughts then.

[Imperium]

I know people want us to give names right now, but I want to finish reading and maybe talk with nacho first.

Oh I do want to say that when I said that I liked Creature's post on that day when he said he wouldn't be mislynched, I wasn't talking about thinking he had the confidence to obvtown. My experience with Creature is very limited, and my experience with town him is definitely not one that obvtowns, but my experience with scum him is someone inactive and kinda timid? But I thought he was soft claiming and that's why he thought he wouldn't be mislynched. There have been quite a bit of soft claims though, so I'm not sure what to think about that. I did really like that post about not being able to figure out not mafia though.

[Imperium]

Heh I actually hated that observation in post 60 both when smith did it and when I think mastin did it. I pretty much hate that line of questioning in general as it's a pretty stupid observation to make. Oversoul wouldn't be assuming mastin is town at that point anymore than anyone who makes the same observation oversoul made does in any game. It's just a common reaction to, yet again, seeing yourself in someone's scum lists. It's similar to when someone expresses disappointment that someone who can usually read them is reading them wrong.

It's just a reaction which doesn't denote a presumption of the alignment of the other person at all. Smiths was done early enough in the game that I wrote it off as early game pushing but it's something so easy for scum to push at because on the surface it looks like a good observation and sound scumhunting but it really isn't. It's fine to start interaction with, so for early game interaction push it's fine, but making an actual argument with it is garbage.

[Imperium]

That was what I wanted to talk about when I said yesterday that I wanted to talk about some of the attacks on oversoul by the way. At the time it was one of the things I didn't like about smith. That coupled with the post I had seen where it was post numbers and statements had me feeling twitchy, but I really liked his interactions some pages back which dropped smith out of my scum reads.

[Imperium]

Heh I actually hated that observation in post 60 both when smith did it and when I think mastin did it. I pretty much hate that line of questioning in general as it's a pretty stupid observation to make. Oversoul wouldn't be assuming mastin is town at that point anymore than anyone who makes the same observation oversoul made does in any game. It's just a common reaction to, yet again, seeing yourself in someone's scum lists. It's similar to when someone expresses disappointment that someone who can usually read them is reading them wrong.

It's just a reaction which doesn't denote a presumption of the alignment of the other person at all. Smiths was done early enough in the game that I wrote it off as early game pushing but it's something so easy for scum to push at because on the surface it looks like a good observation and sound scumhunting but it really isn't. It's fine to start interaction with, so for early game interaction push it's fine, but making an actual argument with it is garbage.

It's not the question that I like but the observation itself. Like I know there are players predisposed to scumreading me and it's always annoying in a kneejerk emotional reaction way when it happens, even though I know it'll happen (nancy is a good example of one of these people). What's lacking in Oversoul's post is that emotional reaction that I expect to be there. Annoyance or frustration or amusement or anything really. It reads flat.

It reading flat is something I agree with.

But I don't want to talk too much about what I expect about oversoul as I'm hoping he'll post again tomorrow before I get to discussing him in hopes that I'll have a better read there. I need to double check some very outdated meta, but I think I see shades of what I expect him to be doing if he's town here and I want it to happen organically.

[Imperium]

Yeah, hopefully starting tomorrow I'll be able to doing that!

Oversoul - are the only games you have since we played two years ago owners market and the lovers game?

[Imperium]

I am really going to sleep now. I've been kinda keeping myself awake to see if anyone would talk to me, but I don't think I can keep my eyes open anymore

[Imperium]

Nachos at work.

[Imperium]

I'm kinda amused that one person spouted a theory that none fears death and the gladiate claim is stalling things and people ran with it as gospel. This is how people like Trump get elected people! It's not something that is true in fact or in theory.

The gladiate being out there should have/has had no bearing on how people act. I've seen a gladiate claim out there with intent to gladiate and town go ahead and lynch someone the before the gladiator enacted the gladiate and someone the gladiator had never intended to gladiate.

This game has a stagnation problem because nobody has been driving or leading the game. And that is definitely not our fault; there are enough potential leaders in this game. And this really isn't any different than most games that have been played around here lately.

I'm still skipping Leon's posts and posts about Leon so I can get fully caught up and read him more with care. I'll need to come back to 1764.

Can you prod oversoul, please?

[Imperium]

We need Imperium to pick a lynch or just lynch and move on. Game has needed fear of death for awhile.

We need Imperium to pick a lynch or just lynch and move on. Game has needed fear of death for awhile.

Can't stress this enough
This game wont progress unless imperium does their thing which kinda bugs me.Everyone just feels as if nothing really matters and it is kinda true since wagon are useless if the wagonee knows that no Lynch will happen.

Like OK tbh, if you aren't planning to be active don't come early day 1 and hold the game hostage >.>

Like here I think this is the most egregious parrot because it's literally the dumbest.

Nobody is holding the game hostage. People don't plan to not be active, rl happens.

Wagons are extremely useful even, even more, in this situation. There will be a lynch happen; it's just that we'll be choosing who we fight against. What makes you think we wouldn't be taking the wagons that are developing into account? What makes you think that we wouldn't be looking at who people are scum reading so that we can engage that? What makes you think that people who are being scum read wouldn't feel on the hotseat due to them only having one person to fight against if they're chosen?

[Imperium]

Oh

boo

[Imperium]

Also just want to put this out there that plantsy is rising in my town reads because as I've been reading along there are little things here and there they've said that are thoughts I've had. But that is a dangerous dangerous reason to town read them and it also makes me have little heart palpitations because it's a dangerous reason to town read someone and then I get paranoid they're actually scum and it drops them in the ranks, so my read on them is looking like a little heart monitor thingy going up and down but they're probably just town and I'm probably just being silly. But then if I ruin the chance for in-thread masonry because the "you're thinking like me" tell freaks me out I'll kick myself.

This also is probably a produce of not having a clear scum read I feel great about right now though.

[Imperium]

*product

[Imperium]

Then that should be driving people to be more active and help us ensure a scum lynch today, not make the game stagnant and people not do anything.

I just think it's a lame excuse and people are going with it.

[Imperium]

The cat is worse today and I'm feeling worse too and I need to disengage for a bit (who knows whether I actually will disengage but I need to.)

I hope you both get better!

[Imperium]

I initially townread both itlepip and Ramcius for the townslips but itlepip overplayed it, and when he was corrected and told that the number of scum were in the OP, he seemed to ignore it and continued to act like we still couldn't know how many scum were alive to the point that it stretched plausibility.

Something I want to come back to or comment on.

This is one of those things that I had been holding on to for quite some pages as I was trying to figure out what I thought of itlpip. Had him as town for the slip, and then liked whoever brought it up and talked about it being a weird avenue for scum to pursue knowing that we weren't in the position he had described. But then it was brought up a couple more times and I started thinking they were overplaying it and that got me concerned about itlpip. I'm not exactly sure what I think about itlpip, but literally nobody else had expressed this exact concern, and I had been looking for how people treated or talked about the slip. The reason why I had posted it and why it mattered to me was because I had seen Ramcius' and town read him for the slip and I wanted to see how the slips were treated and if they were treated differently. I don't remember finding anything.

But, this is also the first time I remember someone expressing my concern.

There are little things like this spread throughout their posting which makes me feel good. both that they're town but also because it means we'll understand each other and be able to work together and that is one of the main things I look for. (The paranoia comes from seeing that tell be the downfall of several people in games.)

[Imperium]

I am caught up!

Well for the most part. I still haven't read through Leon, jaereed's posts about leon, or plantsy's big post to/about leon. I want to give a little more care to his posts since he seems to be a decent scum read for quite a few people and a focus for jae and plantsy in particular.

I have some errands to run, so I'll do that later today and will give thoughts then too.

[Imperium]

hey will be one of the potentially many that will be wagoned and scumread and all they have to worry baout is appearing better to you instead of the game as a whole.

This is what I'm interested in. Because my thought was that it could have the potential effect of lighting a fire under scum's ass so as not to be picked. Do you see anybody doing this?

[Imperium]

But anybody operating under the assumption that we wouldn't be reading the game, how people interacted with their suspects, and what people's suspicions were as we choose our gladiate is sorely misguided.

People are offering a cause for an effect that has no basis in reality.

[Imperium]

Because I am comparing it, to how I feel I would react if I was scum in a situation of a wagon forming on me that I knew is not an actual lynch wagon and all I had to worry about was not getting chosing from any other wagon for the inevitable gladiate.

And this can serve as a response to the general concern surrounding this, but two significant points that make anyone who feel that there can't be pressure because gladiate. 1) Town should never be driven by one player; even though we're the people submitting the action that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be pressuring us to gladiate your scum suspects - making someone a lynch wagon makes them a top priority for focus for us and if someone is very strongly suspected then we need to know that and we need to take care of them today via lynch or gladiate. Secondly, while I would very much like to gladiate today, there's no reason why we

need

to gladiate today as it's suboptimal play to use our gladiate to flail into the wind which means that if town isn't forming wagons they expect will end in death then we're forced into gladiating and that's a hot pile of garbage.

[Imperium]

In other words, I don't disagree that our announcement that we are gladiating today could have fucked things up pace wise but it's not our responsibility to keep the town on pace; people who are treating it as an excuse to let us decide the lynch for today are playing wrong.

[Imperium]

but I'm scared to jinx it

Ffs

The first person I am going to ISO is MaxwellPuckett based on the 6 person wagon on him that apparently fell apart; Tammy wants me to read through Leonshade so I'll do that too but I probably won't start actually reading through the game until tomorrow (stayed late at work & going in early tomorrow and so my window of time to work with is small). If you're around and want to interact in the meantime I'm more than happy to multitask but otherwise I'll be grinding away on ISOs.

[Imperium]

The longer the game goes on the more likely iso maps are likely to give me information I feel good about but they're helpful early on as long as players are fairly active.

[Imperium]

Leonshade would be useful!

[Imperium]

Suspects aren't going to react from pressure from me because it's you that's deciding the lynch.

Maxwell responded to pressure.
Does that mean he was faking and we should gladiate him now because he was faking?

[Imperium]

That doesn't change reality though. No one's scared.

And it's all your fault.

[Imperium]

What helped you sort Max?
I'm still finding him to be pretty unsortable.

[Imperium]

Is there anyone you want me to look into?

[Imperium]

I gotta say yeah 308 makes me wanna vote FA just cause Ive experienced what RM is putting down before and I haven't even read yet lmao

Why did you end up scumreading Titus and obvtowning Shiro if emotional stuff has nothing to do with it and you liked RM's case on the slot originally?

Hey 288 makes me finally see where mastina scumreads are coming from

288 is the post where Mastina decides not to prove that she is voteless for snark reasons - why did you think that was scummy of her?

Ill try to grab more thoughts as I go. remember disliking Ramcius and thinking if mastina was actually town then Oversoul would be where id look for scum.
Shiro is 100% town imo.

Why did you dislike Ramicus early on? Why did you dislike Oversoul early on?

Actually sly's claim bumps him up a tier. MAYBE scum got that role and we're in for kind of a trolly game, and MAYBE he picked something up from key to make the TR there weirdly early, but simplest mechanical explanation is he's just what he claims. If his content was good I'd bump him another tier but meh.

Oh wait I got it.
Was TRing Sly in my catchup so I'm pretty comfortable just calling the guy town here. Role doesnt mechanically make him town necessarily but I still dont have a problem, I was just weirded out momentarily by "Key is conftown to me" when that hydra is conftown to everybody.

This role is fairly similar to something I could see here; scum is informed who Sora is, but have some benefit to keeping him alive. Gumball wasn't confirmed to the rest of us to be town so it's a bit different, but I don't think Sly's role should be used as a reason to townread him.

I woulda been lynched day 2 after my horrible day 1 lurk if I wasn't gunsmith.

This was more due to scum roleblocking Clegane after Bolton flipped traitor-doctor. While I don't really doubt that you have the capacity to lurk as town, what you had in Connington that you're still missing here is a reasonable progression towards your reads; you pressed and believed in Martell, and your early observations (while sparse) had a little more nuance than "Shiro is 100% town. Maybe Ramicus or Oversoul could be scum.".

Pedit: Because you're wagoning me ofc! But no, I dont hate your posting, the specific issues I have are how you seem to disagree with arguments against me (Ramcius) and players scumreading me (mastina iirc) but you're still cool with the wagon. It just jumped out at me, I just showed up here and clicked through your ISO.

This is the first thing that he's said that makes it look like he's actually attempting to do something. I don't really have time to read for context so I don't know if it's actually valid, but I'll note it for later.

[Imperium]

It all reads like a big show. And yeah I know Ive seen mastina put on shows as town but her posting in general feels like a show for the sake of it rather than to get who she wants dead lynched. Grain of salt tho bc im not done her ISO, lets see

I think that this reasoning is pretty weak; people do stubborn things for stubborn's sake pretty constantly. I tend not to sign in hydras for reasons that are pretty tenuous at best, have seen people refuse to claim because their wagon pissed them off - what makes this any different AND indicative of scum? If mastina is scum, what motivation does she have to make a big cart and pony show surrounding her being voteless? It seems like to me the only thing it's accomplished is pissing some people off and giving other people a pretty crap reason to suspect her; what am I missing?

Actually I dont care about that so much. I dont like this Leon scumread.
Leon says Jae isnt engaging with him. Jae says they dont care about Leon's read, and if Leon is town he'll figure out that Jae is. Jae then brings up that if Leon really wanted to engage, he'd be talking about Jae's other reads - when thats not the thing here, what Leon wanted engagement on was that scumread, which imo was pretty bare bones. Just comparing Leon's play to a previous one and saying his play is surface level... i dont really see it. His level of analysis has looked normal to me.
Jae basically says Leon isnt engaging enough right back, directly after telling Leon this his read on them doesnt matter to them. Why wouldnt they want to talk about it?

Pedit: ok right it was pokemon, thanks. Fuck, right, you were the Maria slot, I gotcha
I followed Evoker, yeah

I think you're missing some context here.

Leon started engaging JaeReed based on them scumreading him; he asked them why they were voting him, they said that their previous vote wasn't doing anything and so they dropped it on a "maybe scum, not sure" read.

After that vote, Leon dropped a vote on JaeReed (I don't understand why) and said that they were talking past him and if they wanted the vote to come off, they needed to talk to him (???). This exchange in particular I don't understand - it was an early vote, Jae acknowledged there wasn't a ton of stuff surrounding it, how were they supposed to engage on that read past what they already said to him?

The reason they said that Leon's read on them didn't matter to them was a direct response to the "my vote's not moving until you engage" - didn't mean they didn't want to talk (and I find it weird you're trying to say they didn't want to talk when they talk about it immediately after).

And Shiro i called you obvtown and it was always bc of FA, I never changed my reasoning

Why did you think that FA was town?
I find this an interesting read because for the most part if there's an emotional edge to something you tend to back off it pretty quickly.

[Imperium]

Jae, did that actually do anything fdor your Shiro read?
Key, you werent in my list bc youre conftown. Those were just reads I wanted to note for myself, im not gonna forget youre sora lmao

Anyway on Jaes question, I was thinking about the games where Jae had fooled me, and tbh it wasnt like this. I hadnt gotten any (or few, im not sure) scumvibes from them in those games, in fact they actually seemed to be realistically unsure of alignments.
Back to this game, I was seeing Jae's careful questions and demeanour to be scummy because it seemed like they were trying to win favour and look openminded. A lot of that (not all of it but focusing on myself is easiest imo) was related to how they were talking to me. Tbh now I just think theyre being nice? Esp considering how aware theyve been of making sure Im willing to continue playing. I dont want to be sappy in a game, but yeah.
I think my read changed after the whatever-number of times Jae appealed about being town and I wondered how good theyd be at that sort of manipulation as scum

I like that post, also stuff like 1575 and 1582 feel like the reaction of someone trying to pull reads from this game. I like how easily she drops her Jae push, but at the same time page 55 is a weird time to do that. On reread I think I dislike the wagon on Max more than I can really say I like the slot. I still maintain the slot is way better than Over, Ram, SQ or SW which I think my point was? I kinda stopped taking notes and it hasn't helped me much

This is pretty much what my read looks like, yeah. There are some little things that bother me (that I talked about!) but overall I think that the way he talks about some of his reads looks townish - I'd be able to have a better bead on him if he explained and talked about more of his reads, though; there are a lot of reads where he gives a flat declaration and 0 indication of how he got there and that's not particularly helpful for me.

[Imperium]

Hi Jae!
Do you see the point that I made wrt the gladiate?

[Imperium]

Is there anything I should be looking out for when reading through Leonshade?

[Imperium]

Highly doubtful that you'd be able to scare mastina into voting regardless of the situation.
Is that really your biggest sticking point with her?

[Imperium]

It's not my fault that players aren't being scared of their positions. Right now, you're in charge.

You're not pushing anyone or anything.
You don't think that you can make people die because we said we'd gladiate at the end of today.

Whether you're able to be thoughtful enough to acknowledge it, if there's a player who isn't "scared of their positions", it's your fault.

[Imperium]

It's not my fault that players aren't being scared of their positions. Right now, you're in charge.

You're not pushing anyone or anything.
You don't think that you can make people die because we said we'd gladiate at the end of today.

Whether you're able to be thoughtful enough to acknowledge it, if there's a player who isn't "scared of their positions", it's your fault.

Cmon really? I've been pushing mastina to vote since she claimed voteless. It's just not effective because you won't endorse it.

It's just not effective because it's a policy lynch - there's no reason why as scum that mastina would refuse to vote (unless she's fakeclaiming) and no one's buying that she's fakeclaiming at this stage.

It isn't my fault at all that you don't have the clout to get her to vote and am fairly confident that you wouldn't have the clout to get her to vote even if you had a dayvig in hand; she's stubborn and killing someone for being stubborn is horrible play as town and so she knows she's in the right when you're pushing her.

I'll ask again - is that really your only sticking point with her? Is that the one thing that you care about the most? Mastina voting?

[Imperium]

I'm not entirely sure who else I feel needs a kick to produce content at this stage. I know mastina will come in eventually and that's not AI. I know Imperium will come in eventually and that's not AI. Ramcius has looked good, SlySly has looked kinda ok, Oversoul I'd rather not lynch because I think that's mastina's chosen mislynch if she's scum and if she's town I think there's a good chance she just reads Oversoul's playstyle as scummy. Plus I kind of liked from Oversoul and Ramcius the "saving this for post game" type quotes on ppl scumreading them.

plantsy I'll never lynch this game because if nancy's scum she did something knowing that I was genuine in my emotions that she knows I'd never talk to her again for, so simple answer is she's town.
mastina might be scum but I'm never lynching her D1 in case I'm wrong to scumread her.

Preferred lynch is Leonshade so I guess I'll move my vote there now. We've all been kinda lazy knowing that we're waiting for Imperium's gladiate and I kind of hate that because it fucked up all actual pressure anyone could feel from a wagon because everyone knows it's not going through yet.

VOTE: Leonshade

JaeReed, this is the whole "part of the problem" thing I keep talking about. Is this how you push to get people lynched? Because if the only reason you're throwing a meh vote around is because "we're not here yet" you're buying into Titus's "nothing can be done because gladiate!!" narrative far, far too heavily - if your goal was convincing us to gladiate your preferred target, you've been failing. If you've already generated enough of a case to where you feel you need feedback before moving forward, push his lynch - I'd like to gladiate Day 1 because I feel it's the optimal play but if people are going to use us as someone to blame for low activity then it's well within our power to refuse to use the role.

[Imperium]

I think that looks very town.

[Imperium]

And that's entirely your fault, Titus.
Thanks I guess?

[Imperium]

I think that looks very town.

thanks. I was having trouble getting past being upset that two town players were town reading each other.

People get frustrated at things they find as cheap or poorly balanced regardless of whether it benefits them or not; I wouldn't be particularly happy if the scumteam quoted their role PMs and got themselves modkilled, and that'd be a frustration regardless of alignment.

[Imperium]

@Titus:

Titus, you weren't posting much in radiant moonlight. Some, yes, but you were taking a back seat. Was this a planned strategy with rc that he'd take point on day one?

[Imperium]

It isn't but tell yourself that Imperium when mastina flips scum.

And if she flips town???

[Imperium]

I think that looks very town.

Why do you think it looks very town?

I think itlepip would be more sensitive to the interpretation that Plotinus pointed out; I've found out typically that when town clear each other through reasons that scum don't necessarily agree with then they're more likely to fume about it in private and then talk about it postgame.

[Imperium]

I'm sorry that I haven't been here to talk to you more. If there is anything in particular that you want to talk about (other than Leon, working on that), then let me know.

I just don't want people to be spinning their wheels waiting on us because if we don't end the day with a good scumread then we're not gladiating anyone; everyone will know at least 96 hours before hand (maybe a little sooner!) whether we're gladiating or not which is more than enough time to get a lynch, but I'm not risking pretty certain death over a meh read.

[Imperium]

My first impression was to like Gamma's reasoning for his R&L vote, but it's true that he made the connection between FA's post and FA being a mod in Code Geass really quickly. That said, I think it's likely that Gamma as a player would remember something he got caught for previously, and use that in his own scumhunting. So I don't consider him using that tell on FA artificial, but as it strikes me as something he's aware of, I think it's null in the end.

This has a good level of nuance for a read that doesn't end up going anywhere. While I feel scum are likely to do things like this when going nowhere benefits them, I think they're less likely to do it this early.

Eh, I guess I can buy key not knowing that Loved is conftown.

I didn't know that Loved was conftown either...?

I like Leonshade's observations on FA and Ramicus; don't think they're revolutionary, but.

I don't know enough about FA's play to know if the meta is compelling, but this is compelling reasoning.

...or would have been compelling reasoning if it followed what actually happened this game.

Worse, this post is straight up misrep, as my vote on S and W was an RVS vote. This is inherently manipulative, trying to use anything possible to get people to vote for me.

This attack is a bit reaching; it's not particularly likely that JaeReed as scum would intentionally lie about Leonshade pushing the SW wagon genuinely instead of as an RVS vote in order to press a wagon on him.

Using your reads to justify anti-town behavior.

Mastina did this earlier when you asked her to vote - why didn't you comment on it then?

I'm trying to engage with you right now. This all started with a naked vote from you onto me, waiting for me to come in before explaining any of it. That's not inherently scummy, and could have been a vote for the sake of reactions. But you tried to build a wagon on me with manipulation, all while reefusing to explain why people should scumread me.

JaeReed said that they were voting you because they thought that, in general, your analysis was a little more in depth.
They pointed out that they were voting you as a "maybe scum" read after they lost conviction in the R&L vote.

VOTE: Oversoul

That mastina post got me to ISO Oversoul, as I hadn't paid attention to him yet, and his ISO is not good. Oversoul has mostly spent his time asking irrelevant questions with little follow up, or making points that have nothing to do with alignment, like correcting itlepip on his mistake about the amount of scum in the setup. These are not bad on their own, but they form pretty much his entire ISO, while he's still on what appears to be his RVS vote. I think it shows that his motivation is to look active, rather than to read people.

Oversoul, do you scumread Statler & Waldorf? What are your reads?

This vote isn't great, but it also isn't bad - the two people I'm playing around with voting right now are probably Oversoul/NM and I don't think that my reasoning for Oversoul looks any better than this.

[Imperium]

I'm going to eat and then I'll finish this whenever I get the chance; I find most of his early observations reasonable and I don't think at all that the amount of depth that he's demonstreated so far is unreasonable. Jae, if you don't mind reposting the points that you care the most strongly about (and this would go for anyone else with strong feelings on Leonshade) it would help me out quite a bit.

[Imperium]

Made it to my halfway goal! Don't think I'm staying awake much longer so I'll finish up and talk about more thoughts tomorrow.

I'm past the part when mastina starts to doubt her scum read on jaereed. Jae feels fine to me? I understand the flat point at the beginning. Jaereed just feels like they had an idea of how this game would go or how mastina and them would interact if they were both town. Sitting back and watching mastina's entrance without interacting especially when it's a tough day to get a read feels reasonable and not out of the ordinary. I've done observational analysis plenty of times. Jae then feels like they ended up getting confused and maybe a little frustrated at being scum read and maybe a bit disappointed that it's not going how they hoped?

Maybe none of that is accurate, but that's what it felt like was fraying around the edge of their posts through all of that. And it makes me feel like they're just town.

A great deal of my reads are still in formation mode. Things feel a little weird this game because it's in fracture mode, which is fine for me at the stage I'm at in the game but also a little weird because I wasn't here to experience it so drawing the circles isn't as easy right now. I think the key's sora claim is coming up soon, so maybe I'll start to see a shift with some coalescing soon.

@nancy this post here. idunno why it makes me feel so anxious though at all. Then again I felt it here:

When I talked to nacho this morning about this post and tried to find it to read it to him so he could fully experience the paranoia theory properly, his response was that I didn't need to read it to him and could paraphrase because you were his strongest town read, which surprised me a bit because I did not know that as we haven't really had much time to talk about this game and he's expressed his paranoia thoughts on people, but those are things that don't really make it into thread for him.

Literally my most town post in the game. I spent a good deal of time trying to understand you and other people in this game to get a read on you. I thoight my other head was scum reading you and I was trying to figure out why.

Sorry I tried I guess.

[Imperium]

Imperium you created a game state that favored scum because they knew most of everything was filtered and ultimately decided by you, blame us for this mess for not playing right and now say that maybe you won't gladiate after all cause you don't need to ? Seriously? Like for real?

This is fucking bullshit.

[Imperium]

@nancy this post here. idunno why it makes me feel so anxious though at all. Then again I felt it here:

Do you mean you think they are giving you the wrong reasons to be town? I think Tammy's explanation for you being town feels fairly normal for Tammy but I guess I can see how you would feel weird about it because it's so well-articulated?

It feels like a read that is... only rooted in emotional stuff and idunno it feels like it's starting from a point of me being town and working backwards which puts me really on edge and I don't know if it even should because Nacho had poked at me earlier and probably had already talked to Tammy about it but it feels like she knows I'm town from there and is then talking about what I'd be feeling from that point rather than getting a feel for my alignment.

Still have paranoia on you, but sure.

[Imperium]

You guys could fucking talk to me.

You know?

[Imperium]

Imperium you created a game state that favored scum because they knew most of everything was filtered and ultimately decided by you, blame us for this mess for not playing right and now say that maybe you won't gladiate after all cause you don't need to ? Seriously? Like for real?

Everyone says that they're incapable of scumhunting if we announce a gladiate. So we won't gladiate.

[Imperium]

Imperium you created a game state that favored scum because they knew most of everything was filtered and ultimately decided by you, blame us for this mess for not playing right and now say that maybe you won't gladiate after all cause you don't need to ? Seriously? Like for real?

Everyone says that they're incapable of scumhunting if we announce a gladiate. So we won't gladiate.

But I guess it is my fault for assuming that people could scumhunt after making an announcement that we would gladiate today?

[Imperium]

Imperium you created a game state that favored scum because they knew most of everything was filtered and ultimately decided by you, blame us for this mess for not playing right and now say that maybe you won't gladiate after all cause you don't need to ? Seriously? Like for real?

Everyone says that they're incapable of scumhunting if we announce a gladiate. So we won't gladiate.

Your argument is that no one can scumhunt and scum can play better because of the threat of my gladiator. The only logical response to that argument is refusing to gladiate because it's incredibly anti-town, no?

[Imperium]

I think what queued the paranoia for me was how Nacho seemed to be following the game enough to provide Tammy with reasons why I was town but not enough to produce any content otherwise. Then later he was talking about grinding ISOs but I feel like he is already caught up so I don't know, Plotinus says it's nothing and it's a minor point but it was just something that felt like... there's something lacking here I don't know what. Maybe it's because they are so townread that they don't feel the need to do anything, I know what that's like when I get townread that much so it shouldn't be such a bother for me really. But there's also the way Tammy keeps going on about her paranoia towards us, gives me the niggling feeling that she just wants to make a show of not putting us locktown so easily or something. I mean I know she even gets paranoid of Nacho at times in games so I shouldn't think so much of it probably but it still feels a bit weird. And how they were making such a big deal of Leonshade and sorting Leonshade but like... never did anything and I don't know why Leonshade is so important that they want to read his slot so carefully and all of that.

pedit posts let me read again more carefully

Nacho is not caught up on the game. Nacho was caught up on the emotional stuff. Nacho knew at what point I was asking about because we were literally sitting next to each other and I asked. Nacho has been working a crap ton, with shitty hours, and just hasn't had as much time as he hoped.

I said at the start of the game that I'd not be here until I was, and I made it a priority to read the game as fast as I could once I got here. Sorry if I didn't do it fast enough or have enough reads or whatever while I was trying to digest a 70 fucking page game that is all over the place.

I don't need to fake paranoia on you guys. All I'd have to do is give some reasons and go from there. The game doesn't make sense to me right now and that makes me more paranoid. You're not playing like I've seen you, and there are tiny little things I don't want to just ignore just because I want you guys to be town.

Leon is important to me because he was someone that nacho was scum reading. I didn't get a good feel of him while reading through and he is important to you and jaereed so I wanted to make him a priority to sort because of that.

[Imperium]

There are no real opinions without votes.

Titus's argument is that nothing happens now that we announced that gladiate. You agree with her argument. So the options I have are gladiating into a gamestate where nothing happened or trying to save the rest of the day.

[Imperium]

I don't know what my reads are right now at all. They're a mess. I kinda talked about that recentlyish.
I haven't seen anything from Imperium yet that strikes me as "yes this is most likely town" and that's where the paranoia comes from because I usually feel like I can get some kind of read on Nacho but Imperium is just...null. And I don't know why. I've seen Nacho play kinda lazy-casual before and this doesn't feel like that. I don't understand the whole "Tammy is taking point so they're town" thing because from as far as I know about Tammy she's a good player and has fooled Nacho before as scum (this is something I've only heard people talk about so I might be wrong here) so it doesn't feel like a reliable tell because I think she'd be fine with taking point as scum if she's decent at it and Nacho is too busy?
There's also the read on me and I can't really explain it but it was the emotional reading post about me that felt off.

I hate playing scum. Like hate. It drains me emotionally. I do what I have to do because win con, and yes I can fool people, but when nacho and I draw scum together in this hydra I don't take point. I just don't post. Last two games here where imperium drew scum? I didn't post. Hell I even came up with a trump tweet gimmick that I was going to do in that last game which would have made it more fun and I still didn't post. We drew scum together at mu, I made like five posts one day and then stopped reading the game.

When I say it's as easy as me reading and posting it's because it's that easy. And considering the fact that I said nacho would be driving the game in the sign up thread it wouldn't even be weird for me not to be here.

[Imperium]

It not that we didn't scumhunt, it the fact that the state we are (apparently were) makes scum at easy that no matter what you had the final say and guess what? You weren't bloody here.

P.edit

The damage already been done. You are now trying to wiggle out of the responsibility you.put on yourself. Are you like legit right now?

This is bullshit.

Everybody here knows how to play this goddamn game, act like it.

[Imperium]

You are now trying to wiggle out of the responsibility you.put on yourself.

Can you point out where I said "please, no one do anything this game, I would like to do all of the scumhunting by myself, no one needs to do anything at all"? Because if we said that then I need to know so Tammy and I can have a talk and issue a formal apology for ruining the game.

Because even if the final decision rested with me, town should still be pressing their preferred lynch and yet you didn't even bother talking to me about that Max read I just posted - why not?

[Imperium]

I said at the start of the game that I'd not be here until I was, and I made it a priority to read the game as fast as I could once I got here. Sorry if I didn't do it fast enough or have enough reads or whatever while I was trying to digest a 70 fucking page game that is all over the place.

I'm sorry if you felt this was part of my paranoia. It wasn't at all. I think you did a really great job of catching up and I was happy to see how quickly you were able to progress through the thread. If Nacho is not caught up that makes a big difference, there were a couple different things he said that made me think he was caught up so I was getting confused about what he actually knew about the game.

I know you don't need to fake paranoia. And I have seen how you express paranoia so I know what it looks like and there's nothing I have seen that doesn't look like how you would be paranoid. I am also just paranoid, because the game doesn't make sense, and you are dancing around our slot with some particular emphasis and it makes me uneasy. I just wanted to talk about my paranoia and get it out in the open so that you and Nacho could come and talk to me about it and hopefully we could resolve it and I could feel better again.

He's probably read some posts here or there, but I've also been talking about my thoughts while I've been catching up.

Yes, I'm dancing around your slot because yours is the slot I most want to work with and think I can work with. But I'm not comfortable with reading you and because I know I want you to be town I know I'm going to look more positively at you and sometimes I don't correct enough for that and sometimes I over correct. I probably over correct when I don't have any markers for reading you. I think I have a couple but I don't have a decent feel for what you guys look like at either alignment.

[Imperium]

Prod received
Something tonight
Probably just a reply to the plantsy post though
Sorry

I also asked you a question I'd like you to answer

[Imperium]

I'm sorry if you feel frustrated from what I said Tammy. I didn't want that to happen. Is there anything I can do to help you feel better right now?

I'm just frustrated because I put those thoughts out there and neither of you prodded further at my thoughts and I've been taking care to try to read and understand you both.

I am more frustrated that people are acting like they don't know how to play mafia and blaming us for a gamestate they helped cause. If people actually cared about finding scum and the gladiator they'd be pushing for their biggest scum read to get it just like they should be doing for a lynch, but people have been sitting on their hands and want to parrot a looney idea because it absolves them.

I'm sorry we weren't here. I wish we could have been, but that doesn't mean people can't and shouldn't be pushing their scum reads.

[Imperium]

I am also sorry that I didn't come back last night. I had every intention to and to talk about some of my thoughts and reads, but I've been so busy lately that I hadn't cleaned and taken care of other stuff, so I did that, but I was also letting the game sit and thinking about things, so I will talk about that later. I'm getting ready to head to the rink, so I'll do that when I get back home.

[Imperium]

I hate playing scum. Like hate. It drains me emotionally.

Ok, I can understand this feeling. That's exactly how I feel.

I'm sorry if my concerns upset you. I just wanted to air it a bit with nancy for the reasoning that if we don't talk about it then it just kind of festers and then there's no chance to resolve it.

I get really paranoid when I think I'm being buddied or defended without real need to be and I think that's what I was feeling was off about that post where you were trying to read me. If you thought nacho was scumreading me that changes the context a bit though.

I wasn't trying to throw your efforts back in your face and I'm really sorry it came out like that. I'm struggling with words tonight and it showed but I just was trying to get something going with nancy even though I don't feel quite right tonight because she offered and I feel I desperately need the help.

It's cool. I get bummed when I'm hoping to work with someone in a game and it doesn't click and then get frustrated about it.

At that point in the game Nancy and mastin had scum read you, rc had been arguing about you, nacho had expressed suspicion, so I was trying to get a read on you. I try to understand people and their reactions.

[Imperium]

I'm just frustrated because I put those thoughts out there and neither of you prodded further at my thoughts and I've been taking care to try to read and understand you both.

I am more frustrated that people are acting like they don't know how to play mafia and blaming us for a gamestate they helped cause. If people actually cared about finding scum and the gladiator they'd be pushing for their biggest scum read to get it just like they should be doing for a lynch, but people have been sitting on their hands and want to parrot a looney idea because it absolves them.

I'm sorry we weren't here. I wish we could have been, but that doesn't mean people can't and shouldn't be pushing their scum reads.

I'm sorry that I didn't prod at your thoughts. I haven't been able to be as responsive to the thread as I've wanted to be for the past 2 days. I haven't even been able to finish my Leonshade ISO runthrough. Right now I'm here but it's late and I'm not fit to be doing intense thinking activities, I'm just doing what I can, mainly just talking rather than thinking deeply at the moment.

I understand the frustration and I appreciate it because I don't think the arguments people have been giving about that have been good at all. I don't think we have been sitting on our hands - I have been working hard to get my scumreads in proper order and unfortunately Plotinus has been unwell but they have also been doing lots of work in the hydra PT.

I don't hold your absence against you at all. That never really worried me, to be honest. (I was a bit sad because I love interacting with you both so much, but it never worried me.)

I'm not accusing you in particular of sitting on your hands! I'm sorry if it came out that way.

I'll also respond to anything else when I get back, but there are limited hours at the rink right now so I want to get there and get some time in.

We are town and I'm sorry I haven't made that obvious enough yet, and I'm sorry I got frustrated at paranoia while being paranoid myself. I will give all/most of the thoughts running around this afternoon. But I don't feel any better about the game than anyone else seems to right now. I just don't have a scum read I feel great about.

[Imperium]

Actually that was me misremembering. I thought he had put Leon in his list of three he'd had that he'd gladiator at that moment. But I just looked back to quote it and it was sly, creature and overwork.

At rink respond to anything else later.

[Imperium]

Don't understand your angle but you do you.

[Imperium]

That is pretty reachy don't even know how that can be interpreted as a scum slp. Like what?

it's also entirely possible I got it wrong because of reading nancys post.

People forget what other people's are all the time.

[Imperium]

Imperium you created a game state that favored scum because they knew most of everything was filtered and ultimately decided by you, blame us for this mess for not playing right and now say that maybe you won't gladiate after all cause you don't need to ? Seriously? Like for real?

This is fucking bullshit.

No. It's exactly how I feel. Shiro is my rock this game.

It's not a shock that the person parroting your horseshit idea is your rock.

[Imperium]

I would also like to point out that when nacho was active and here e did give three names he'd graduate at that moment. Oversoul, creature and slysly.

You'll forgive me if I don't remember something as I read the game in just a couple sittings, but how pressured or in fear of their life did that make them? Or did they ignore, continue on about their business, and continue to do pretty much do nothing in the game.

[Imperium]

hey will be one of the potentially many that will be wagoned and scumread and all they have to worry baout is appearing better to you instead of the game as a whole.

This is what I'm interested in. Because my thought was that it could have the potential effect of lighting a fire under scum's ass so as not to be picked. Do you see anybody doing this?

I think this isn't the best way to view this because town could have reasons to not want to be picked too and also react that way. Unless you're talking about a different situation.

Right, but if that was happening then it would be our job to figure out the alignment of those behaving that way.

I was more interested in shiro's thoughts because his parrot of this inanity I find the worst, and I'm trying to figure out whether he's scum spouting bullshit or if he's actually thinking and is town.

[Imperium]

I need to respond/expand on some stuff from this morning but right now I'm going to just ramble my thoughts on players off the top of my head.

Also side note: if you ever see me posting in a mafia game when I say I'm at the rink, yell at me to walk away and nit come back. I get distracted and then I end up with bruises

[Imperium]

I've decided not to quote posts that are longer than a screenful but I like Nacho's 2004 about Leon, and would like it better if it had a conclusion so I'm waiting for part two when he's here next.

Also nacho thank you for talking to me about itlepip last night.

Hopefully that will come today, but tonight is pool league night and he is potentially getting called in to work tonight on his day off.

[Imperium]

I wasn't texting while skating! I was just thinking and distracted and that ends up with awkward falls.

I'm going to hold onto my oversoul thoughts for right now because he could go either way really. I don't think oversoul is very easy to read when he's not doing the things I associate with town him. And I don't want to say what it is that I look for because I don't want to tell him how to get a town read from me. I have seen a shade of it, but it's too early to have any certainty. I do want to know why he was scum reading slysly when he voted him, and why after the claim that pushed him into the townblock. There's something bothering me there but I don't want to talk about it until he answers that. Hopefully he'll come back today and I can explain this then.

Steven quartz is probably town. I didn't like the early mastina push for not town reading an entry post, but I think in the thing titus said she expects a town Hume to reach out to her and she did. The wall thing and cheekiness about it also make her not someone iminterested in.

[Imperium]

Spoiler: For imp and not game related

What is a pool league?

Spoiler:

Where we play pool. We play 16 games against a team and at the end of the season we get ranked according to how well we did against everyone.

[Imperium]

I'm not sure what I think about mastina. I *think* nacho likes her just fine. I don't at all agree with titus that she's refusing to vote to avoid responsibility, and really wish people would shut up about her role or lack of vote status because really it matters not to the game and is just a huge distraction. People going on and on about it is just going to make her dig her heels in.

Now there are a bunch of little things I like about mastina, but when I think about it I'm not sure how alignment indicative they are. This including the rants, bragging, side explanations about her behavior, meta, etc. when she's posting like this I get the sense of what muffin said she lacked in her scum game. (I miss muffin by the way). Anyway, one time in a game a long time ago, muffin tried to explain what it was that a town mastina lacked. And that was a feeling of whimsy. Now that was a long time ago, and her play could have changed, she might have learned the whimsy, though I think this is a harder thing to incorporate than other things. Now I'm not sure what he saw when he saw whimsy, but I remember thinking about what I saw then. So whimsy is something I think I sometimes see, and it makes me feel good about her.

I haven't much liked some of her pushes though. I know there were three that stood out to me but I can on,y remember two right this second. One was the attack on oversoul for him not considering she might be scum when he said she can't read him. And the other was when ramcius said something about scum hiding in the shadows or something and she argued a town him would have pointed out who they were who was doing that. Both of these are things that are so commonly said that the push didn't feel right. Oh I remember the third. It was when ramcius asked why the person was reading him by someone else's meta instead of his own when they had played together. It was a good question and a good point, but mastin called it scummy.

So when I see little tags like that it conflicts with me thinking I'm seeing whimsy and I'm not sure what to make of it. I do like the use of hurt tags, which does hold accountability and she is going back on some reads, but it's been a long ass time since I've seen mastin scum, so I'm not sure if I should point out changing reads is a plus, I believe I'm picking up this point from Jae.

[Imperium]

I do think Jae and Plantsy are town. Even if the paranoia is not completely gone. I think if they are town it will be when I feel better about the gamestate and my reads. I've talked about the whys and the paranoia about them though.

I have less paranoia on jaereed though because I've rarely been wrong when I get an emotional read like that. (I don't remember being wrong on that type of read before, but it could have happened.) Anyway, I would have explained that read the way that I did it even if I didn't think nacho was scum reading them at the time. That behavior and that interaction was the basis for why I felt good about the read. Other things looked fine, scum hunting and reasons looked fine, but that was what made me go this person is just probably town.

Plantsy we've talked about this morning, so I don't think I need to go into more detail about it.

[Imperium]

So from whom I've talked about so far we will not be gladiating: JaeReed, Plantsy, Mastina, Keyskies, Steven Quartz

[Imperium]

I probably won't be interested in gladiating Titus either today unless someone who can read her well is able to point out a good case on her.

That being said I personally have no clue. There's a lot of stuff I dislike. I dislike the interaction between RM with RL at the beginning of the game. I disliked it a bit from Titus' end because it felt like she was purposefully trying to antagonize FA and was being rather condescending. This came at the time when FA was trying to sort the game and had asked RM to explain or expand on something. Titus told her that she hadn't asked them any questions and when FA pointed out what she had asked, Titus responded that it wasn't a question and neither RM explained what FA asked. This reads to me like someone who is trying to establish dominance and make someone else look bad rather than actually figure out someone else's alignment. Problem is Titus did crap like this in another game and she was town.

RC did seem to genuinely feel bad that he hurt FA though, so I don't know.

I hate the focus that Titus has placed on Mastina's role. Apparently they didn't read to see it was role related in the first place, but not reading posts is also something that Titus does, so I don't know here. But it's hogwash to say that someone can't be held accountable if they can't vote. And this is so contradictory. In the girls girls game, Titus accused me of ramming a lynch through on town and definitely held me accountable for it when I was neither voting the wagon nor was it my preferred lynch (it was my second preferred.) So, she definitely knows and has held people accountable before for their words, not just for their votes. It bothers me that she's been complaining since before page 10? that the wagon on mastina was stalled, which is what? And pretty much the only thing she's done today is complain about mastin's lack of vote so lack of accountability status.

But I also know that Titus will get a thought stuck in her head and there is absolutely no way around that thought. No amount of evidence, discussing, rationalizing will knock that thought down. I think I read Mathblade say one time that when Titus gets her mind on something, you have to destroy the narrative she's created not the read. So by going on that Titus will not stop this obsession until she sees that Mastina can't vote, but Mastina is not going to prove her role while feeling like she's being condescended to no matter her alignment, so ah yep my magic 8 ball predicts this will continue.

Due to the contradictory nature of this though, i know Titus knows that people can be held accountable by their words, statements and stances and even hurt tags, this feels like a fake obsession of hers meant to replicate her town stubbornness.

Likewise I hate the the day is going nowhere because nobody feels death narrative she's constructed. She knows how to lead a game; she can do it. She knows how to push people for stances, she's chosen not to. Yes, we ultimately choose the gladiate, but we're not little dictators. We'd be looking at the gamestate, who the town is pushing, evaluating those cases and then making a decision from there. Oh hey that also means we'd be looking at the wagons. We had a similar gamestate in Girls Girls though, without a gladiate claim out there imagine that these things just happen sometimes, and she didn't take point there or dig deeper or even push her scum reads for more content, so I don't know here either.

Everything about her play screams scum to me and if I didn't just get her wrong in Girls Girls due to some of this then I'd be screaming for her head, so I just don't know.

[Imperium]

I would also like to point out that when nacho was active and here e did give three names he'd graduate at that moment. Oversoul, creature and slysly.

You'll forgive me if I don't remember something as I read the game in just a couple sittings, but how pressured or in fear of their life did that make them? Or did they ignore, continue on about their business, and continue to do pretty much do nothing in the game.

that was post 813 and it was just temp reads, why would people should be afraid of those?

The point is that nobody flinched about them. Why wouldn't it take hold if they didn't do anything townish? It didn't change their behavior then and it probably wouldn't now.

[Imperium]

I haven't seen anything from Ramcius that I've disliked. I don't remember actively liking every point of his, but I haven't seen anything scummy. I think one of the only things that keeps him from being a decent town read is that there's been a decent amount of suspicion around him and unless I know someone really well I start thinking maybe I'm wrong. And maybe I am wrong, but he's not someone I'm interested in gladiating. I've liked his paranoia especially about the bookie thing. I do still somewhat like what I passed off earlier as a town slip; it's not a true townslip since he did read it, but I can see town only focusing on the scum mechanics and forgetting who was confirmed town. Not a lock clear.

(OH there is a little more something to this read that I don't want to talk about. Something I have my eye on though.)

[Imperium]

So from whom I've talked about so far we will not be gladiating: JaeReed, Plantsy, Mastina, Keyskies, Steven Quartz, Titus, Ramcius

Still in the running: Oversoul

[Imperium]

I have basically liked itlpip. The only niggle I have on him is that he was playing up the townslip angle of not knowing how many scum there are, but that is the only thing I remember being concerned about while reading though the game. When nacho was here yesterday, he and Plantsy talked and thought that something of his he said was very town, so this is someone I'm not going to worry about right now.

[Imperium]

I would also like to point out that when nacho was active and here e did give three names he'd graduate at that moment. Oversoul, creature and slysly.

You'll forgive me if I don't remember something as I read the game in just a couple sittings, but how pressured or in fear of their life did that make them? Or did they ignore, continue on about their business, and continue to do pretty much do nothing in the game.

that was post 813 and it was just temp reads, why would people should be afraid of those?

The point is that nobody flinched about them. Why wouldn't it take hold if they didn't do anything townish? It didn't change their behavior then and it probably wouldn't now.

There is difference between "look, guys, i just think i might gladiate one of these" early in D1 and "we want one of these dead" couple days before EoD, especially when there was many vanity wagons, people wasn't really pushing each other, etc. I talk only from my experience, but EoD is a catalyst, so intent close to EoD have much more power than vague intent in first half of day, especially if it's D1

I'm not going to keep arguing this. My point in bringing it up was because people were complaining that the gamestate is what it is because we haven't chosen a gladiate.

Our earliest suspects paid no attention to the possibility they'd be gladiated, there's no indication they'd care now.

[Imperium]

Actually it doesn't matter because he accused of us being the bookie too so he definitely read the op. I was considering Ramcius's post about Sora maybe being scum as a pretty strongly decent town slip because of not reading the opening post, but he knows there's four scum (it's the first thing in the opening post) and knows about bookie (it's in the last paragraph in opening post). Sora being town is the second line right beneath the four scum. So, he's read the whole thing; therefore, claiming that sora might still be scum is not a townslip in the way I had previously argued.

I was thinking it was along the lines of when I didn't read the "you know these people are in the game" role pms because I misread and thought they were sample role pms so I didn't care and didn't read them. But it's obvious he read it. Maybe he forgot, but it's definitely not the townslip that I thought it was.

which is fairly boo.

Tbh with this there goes any paranoia I had about Imperium

I really liked this response. I'm not exactly sure why it would erase any paranoia, but there's just something here that I liked about it. Had he even expressed paranoia?

Granted I was only in King's Landing for half of day one, but I don't remember Connington doing anything really. I remember rvs at the beginning and then barely being around. Though I was scum and knew he was town, so I don't have the same types of memories of people's play as when I'm town and actually have to read them, but I thought that Connington was practically a nonentity.

(I just remembered something about itlepip that I liked and it left me. Hmm.)

Nacho has some questions out to him, so we'll see what that interaction pans out.

[Imperium]

hey will be one of the potentially many that will be wagoned and scumread and all they have to worry baout is appearing better to you instead of the game as a whole.

This is what I'm interested in. Because my thought was that it could have the potential effect of lighting a fire under scum's ass so as not to be picked. Do you see anybody doing this?

shiro - you never answered this.

[Imperium]

So from whom I've talked about so far we will not be gladiating: JaeReed, Plantsy, Mastina, Keyskies, Steven Quartz, Titus, Ramcius, itlepip

Still in the running: Oversoul , maxwell puckett,

[Imperium]

Tammy hi Tammy it is your turn. Was the rink nice?

It was! Except for some ruts left by hockey players who were taking lessons this morning.

[Imperium]

My read on not_mafia started off as "nacho likes his posts" and turned into "i have enough other scumreads so town i guess".

One of the few players nacho actually talked to me about before I started reading was them. He loved their gimmick and thought that they had a decent balance between the gimmick and content.

Nacho has a weakness for gimmicky, trollish players much like I have a weakness for players that make me laugh.

[Imperium]

I am happy with this so far - wish Titus were still in the running because of RC but no other quibbles right now.

I've mostly put Titus there because I was wrong in Girls Girls. I'm happy to talk about that read because I'm in the land of you look scummy but I was just wrong for similar reasons and that makes me gunshy, but I am open to discussion.

[Imperium]

Also I want to say that while I believe that you believe the "I'm posting therefore I'm town" line because I've seen you say it before as town in Imperium and I've seen the "yesss i didn't even have to post" line in dead threads of scumgames but I want you to know that I'm never going to conftown you for that regardless of how much you hate playing scum because I respect you too much as a player to do so. You can have town points for it of course but I am relying on body of work + my official nacho reader t-shirt for my townread on you two.

I wouldn't expect someone to confirm town me for it! It's something I believe, especially right now, but it's not something that is going to be the case every game I'm sure. I mostly brought it up again to counter the concept that I'm just a good scum player who'd be good taking point if nacho is busy and trying to point out the actuality of my mind.

[Imperium]

Tammy later claims that Nacho secretly scumread Leon.

I didn't claim it was a secret read. I've only started getting caught up in the game, so nacho and I haven't talked about that many people. You're not one of the people we've talked about in person until yesterday when I asked him to iso you and tell me what you think. I thought you were one of the ones listed in the three he mentioned earlier but I misremembered. I might have even got the idea from Nancy's post.

Would have made my life a lot easier if I hadn't misremembered because I didn't see anything egregious popping out at me while I read, so I was putting you to the side to read later :/

[Imperium]

I'll be back in a bit to ramble some more

[Imperium]

Oh I remember what I liked about Kyle pup! It's a timing read

Pick this up and explain later. Out right. Now don't want to forget

[Imperium]

That out of context 308 looked good to me, reminded me of a different game. Already said why Shiro's obvtown. I dont actually remember why I mentioned scumreading Titus I just remember thinking she was town later. Dunno what emotional stuff has to do w this convo, unless thats just an indication you missed what I liked for town from FA

This is the only post I'm familiar with that has you talking about your townread on FA:

Honestly I would rather not quote some of the posts, but I'm aware she can be emotional as scum. The difference is her frustration that she wasn't being talked to, her questions not answered, etc. and Shiro's also looked town since. Posts like 246 illustrate what town would be frustrated about too.

I understand that your read on her frustration is more nuanced than "emotional stuff and then scum" but I don't think it's unfair to say that you're townreading her based on emotion. I guess I just think it's kind of weird you very confidently clear FA for emotional stuff (when she's practically known for AtEing) and then ignore stuff like Jae's and nancy's posting - I know this is a bad line of attack because there's nothing here you can really respond to, but it's still a concern of mine so I figured I'd air it anyways since we don't do anything. What game did 308 remind you of?

At this point Im waiting for mastina to out her gambit or out her voting ability that she's not voting for. At the time I was considering the former but not the latter, and that overblown post abt how she wasnt going to vote but was going to use hurt tags because shes "not going to bow to her scumreads" looked fake. I still think its fake, fake = scum when posting impulsively like i usually do. Im just now considering town reasons it could be fake.

This is a reasonable explanation.

I swear I havent liked one thing Ramcius has done this game, his logic and pushes are bad

I don't disagree with this statement, but I can't help but feel that this is a lazy response - what makes you think that his pushes are disingenuous as opposed to genuine but bad?
What do you think of his townslip here?
What do you think of his push on us here? Do you think it's something he's likely to fake as scum? Do you think it's something that he's likely to be coached into?

Oversoul is... fuck Id have to actually check his ISO for this one.

Could you check his ISO and let me know what you think about him? He's my (Nacho's) top choice for a gladiate target at the moment, so I'd be especially interested to hear what you're thinking about him.

Yeah the same sort of role was used in SU mafia, Centipeedle was scum and knew who Steven was before the rest of the game (meaning scum knew). Im not TRing him for the role as I said in my own post. There was just a minute of how it didnt make sense to me that the player in an informed neighbourhood with Sora would need to be told by the mod that the person theyre in a hood with is town, when Sora is publicly town already. Then I sort of got it and decided theres no point going into it bc what am I gonna find anyway, Sly isnt lying about the neighbourhood.

This also makes sense as an explanation - I agree that the "Key is conftown to me" thing is kind of weird in general, but the reason I'm bothered about it is that there's more scum motivation to crumb that he knows who Key is than there is town motivation (scum would want to prove that he had the neighborhood with the conftown, town would want to keep him safe). Why are you townreading SlySly?

[Imperium]

Hi Plotinus!

I'm finishing through the Leonshade ISO right now and then when I'm done with that I'll look into a couple of reads on his map that I thought were interesting - just trying to figure out how best to strangle mhsmith for 1058 right now.

[Imperium]

Thank you Plotinus!!

What were your general thoughts on Max?

[Imperium]

Hi nancy!
Can we talk about Leonshade?
I don't actually see why anyone's scumreading him at this point.

[Imperium]

We both have him as hardscum now. We think he's capable of doing more than what he's doing. he doesn't seem to be gamesolving at all.

I agree that he's capable of doing more than what he's doing now, but I also feel like it's well within his townrange to play a lazy game.
Not gamesolving at all doesn't seem entirely accurate to me; he's provided reads and he's shown evidence that he's at least thinking about a couple of them.

[Imperium]

You read my pbpa?

No, would you mind linking it?

[Imperium]

And if you have a longform case on Max could you link that too?

[Imperium]

@Maxwell: I'm unsure if you addressed this or not, but I think this is a valid point:

Honestly I would rather not quote some of the posts, but I'm aware she can be emotional as scum. The difference is her frustration that she wasn't being talked to, her questions not answered, etc. and Shiro's also looked town since. Posts like 246 illustrate what town would be frustrated about too.

I'll answer the other for you next, Jae. Have to go out suddenly, soz

While the behavior you cite may well be indicative of town frustration (and might be present in her ISO, I should check later), I don't think the post you quoted is necessarily town. She's frustrated that someone is misreading her and is scumreading her as a result. This could come from scum caught for the wrong reasons just as easily as town.

[Imperium]

First chunk of the Leon ISO that I'm doing because Tammy thought I was scumreading him when I was never actually scumreading him

I also didn't mention this before but I was thinking it over and I think that the way he approached Jae's vote on him is far more likely to be coming from town than scum - my view of his scumgame in general is not the greatest (although I have an extremely narrow view of it so really I don't actually know what he's capable of), but I don't feel it's particularly likely that he would try tilting at Jae unless he was extremely comfortable when playing scum which I don't think is the case.

The problem was not that Jae spoke in someone else's preferred terms, but that those terms were false, misrepping me.

Those terms weren't false.
Jae said that you were on the S&W wagon - this was true, and a reference to Titus's 471 where she explicitly mentions you being on the crap S&W wagon.

I forgot about the details of the bookie ability, especially since I'd forgotten about the bookie ability in general and had just been reminded of it. I read the bookie ability in the OP and thought that it was extremely conditional, so I decided not to worry about it. You also ignore my actual rationale for the Imperium TR, only shading the addendum I made upon being reminded of the bookie.

I think that this is mhsmith's weakest of the significant points by far - I don't understand why your townread on us for claim was bad on lazy compared to smith's townread on us for claim (which was "claim makes them more likely town").

At the same time, there's really nothing there, so I don't know why nobody is/was interested in wagoning Oversoul, but now Maxwell has a wagon on him for basically the same reasoning. This alone makes Oversoul slightly more likely scum than Maxwell in my eyes, and I also had more of a problem with Oversoul's ISO in general.

In general, I think "why a wagon forms" is more complex than "scum agree with it" or "scum disagree with it". For example, if I had more time earlier in the game then it's possible I would have been more proactive about pushing Oversoul which means that maybe more people would have paid more attention to him which means that maybe the wagon would be bigger - there's generally too many factors that go into wagon formation for the "he has a wagon so he's scum/town" assertion to be useful.

If I wasn't townreading Jae already, their posts on page 51 would make me do so (1264 and 1274 specifically).

This is a strong observation.

The scummy part was them taking advantage of Titus's misunderstanding.

You word it as a misunderstanding, but that's not really the case - Titus was making a shallow observation, but I'm pretty sure she knew exactly what she was saying (she's hammered the "opinions aren't opinions without votes" line of thought fairly incessantly this game; doubt she'd care about your opinion on S&W as long as your vote was on him).

I don't disagree at all that Jae's opening was less transparent than I was expecting/hoping but the extension of this argument is bad.

There’s an implied “it’s scummy”, given that you were pushing a Jae!scum case around that point in time. The alternative would be that you’re just bitching about it, except that really doesn’t fly, since your last sentence “Jae has also expressed an SR on Plantsy but isn't voting them, voting me without exoressing a read” is pretty clearly you expressing an SR on Jae for that behavior (since SR’ing without voting while voting without SR’ing is generally considered scummy behavior – bonus points for your 611, where you note that you’re doing the exact same thing that was worth pushing on Jae for)

I don't really agree with this line of attack; you note when people are doing things that are anti-town or questionable so that they can correct the behavior or explain it - my posts on Titus's "nothing can be done" are noting anti-town behavior and although I'm leaning very slightly scum on the slot based on RC, those posts aren't being used to bolster my scumread there - they are being used to point out anti-town behavior.

When did Leonshade say it was worth it to push Jae for not commenting on the vote they were making?

Disagreed, I don't think that a strong scumread emerges from the points you've brought up thus far. An SR is plausible, but you have me in your bottom tier over other scumreads. There's something to be said for being willing to be more confident based on less information when it comes to D1 play, but the points I've pointed out don't seem like the basis for a scumread, more circumstantial evidence to support one. If you have more to your scumread than you've provided, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise I'm left with mostly superficial "this seems hedgy" scumtells and the above points, rather than truly weighing whether those posts could come from a town perspective.

I think telling someone their perspective is good enough for a "lean scum" perspective but not a "scum" perspective is a very weak argument to make; I've sometimes felt strongly about reads despite not having a case that I could work particularly well and I've felt very weak about reads where I've felt I've had a strong case.

Instead, your wish is to use the gladiate as a tool to force the lynch of your own scumread. I probably wouldn't be today's lynch by regular means, which is why a gladiate is the best way to get me lynched. This worries me, as the nancy-head of the hydra should know that my scum game is not that strong, while I can be pretty damn good as town once I get going. Scumreading me early on is easy, especially when I've been inactive, but it becomes increasingly harder to lynch me as the game keeps going and people start to see my scumhunting in action. That is why your call for my gladiate worries me. I would expect nancy to know that it's not difficult to lynch scum!Leon later, whereas gladiating me is the best chance of scoring a mislynch on me.

I think that this post looks quite town - I like it for reasons similar to Tammy's for liking JaeReed's accusation of us claiming gladiator in order to create a gamestate that wasn't healthy. For one, I pretty heavily doubt that he has confidence enough in his scumgame where the "it gets increasingly more difficult to lynch me as the game goes" on statement is one that he'd be able to say without lying out of his ass (but it makes sense as a perspective from him as town), and so the argument centered around "gladiating me is the best way to mislynch me" seems like it has a reasonable foundation and isn't an angle that I think he's creative enough to press as scum.

Most of the rest of this post is meh, a lot of questions but little that seems truly meaningful or interesting. But I can relate to Oversoul's point about about him being a common scumread to set him up as a later mislynch, as I've been feeling the same way about the scumreads on me. But with Oversoul, with scummy people like mhsmith scumreading but ignoring him, I feel that it's also possible scum are distancing from their buddy, but don't want to bus him.

I haven't been engaged enough to start appealing to people directly, but I have called mhsmith out for not voting for you.

I like this post in context - Oversoul is the one read that Leonshade's been fairly aggressive about that is also one that he has a conceivable chance of pushing through (aka the person he'd be trying to mislynch here if scum) but the way that he talks about things like this seems fair; as scum I expect this is something he'd just be straight up ignoring until he thought there was something he'd

have

to comment on (and then he'd just back off).

This is straight up false? In 912, he talks about the point where he switched from a scumread to a townread, a point which closely parallels my read progression on Jae. In 914 he says that he was paranoid of the role, but townread mastina's play. Both of these read progressions are also clear over their ISO. You're cherry picking two posts that could be misconstrued as supporting the point you're making, when the point is clearly false if you look at the larger context. It looks like you're trying to come off as having put in more work into your reads than you actually have. It's a neat narrative, but the substance doesn't add up. It really is theater.

I agree with your interpretation here for the most part (as in I do think his progressions make sense), but the extension to this argument is again weak; seems far more likely they just misinterpreted something.

And this progression on the read makes me feel a LOT better about plantsy's slot. The read was starting to feel artificial with how there was zero progression on it, despite my play picking up, but it's possible that it came from tunneled town rather than scum.

You worded this like it moved the needle on your read but your next readslist implied that this didn't actually change your read on them at all?

Holy fuck wait Leon is that everyone in the game in your list?

Yeah, it's a 17 player game. I felt like you in Civ at one point, I was handing out TRs for too little.

I haven't gotten this sense based on your posts in the game thus far - who did you TR based on too little and what too little were you townreading them on?

Hmm. While I wasn't expecting as cumslip, it's a pretty big coincidence. I'd like like an answer from plantsy as to why they thought Imperium was scumreading me.

I like the way that Leonshade pushed this; I think as scum it's pretty easy to push a fake scumslip and come across fake as fuck as a result (or make it as an observation and leave it at this), but the way he went about it seemed pretty genuine.

[Imperium]

You have your chronology off, here. Jae didn't explain any of those things until after I had voted for them and asked for them to engage with me. Before my vote, their only comment on why they scumread me was one post they quoted that they found scummy, which happened while I was talking about how they hadn't explained why they scumread me.

You're correct; I did fuck that up. This makes more sense, then. I'll look into Leon's ISO map, then I'll review plantsy's case on him.

[Imperium]

What does R stand for again?

His read on Creature and you looks interesting (lots of + and -), gonna look into Oversoul since it's his main scumread, and going to look into his Titus/RM read just because mentioning them as much as he does without giving an alignment call seems weird without context.

[Imperium]

Scum meta in a multiball game is different enough to where it's borderline useless to me; the most significant thing I look for when seeing if someone is good at playing scum or not is "can they fake scumhunting?" and they won't need to fake scumhunting for a majority of the game when they can just scumhunt the other team.

[Imperium]

I want her to answer my question and with all of your postings, she'll never see it, so please slow down. :/

If Titus continues to ignore your question, I'll dig it up again when she and I are online at the same time again. I'm not going to stop analyzing the game for the sake of Titus being slightly more likely to pick up on one question you asked, though.

[Imperium]

No, I'm okay! Thanks for posting your stuff on Max before you fell asleep; it will help a lot!

[Imperium]

I don't think we did, but I'm pretty behind in the game in general so I'm not confident at all on that.

[Imperium]

In that case, I'll post these as I finish them:

Creature -551 -749 -+750 -+1103 =1135 =1347 +1691 ==-1696

Nothing too interesting here; I think that 1103 wasn't really a positive ding for Creature (or even a half-positive) - just noted that he was starting to produce enough to where attempting to sort him wouldn't be absolutely useless. I'm not sure why 1691 is a positive. Overall, Leon seems to have a remarkably similar read on Creature without the benefit of the early RVS bump from the post that Mastina and I both liked.

Oversoul v755 -1104 -1135 -1338 -1347 -1577 -+-1689 +1690 --==1696

I thought that him voting Oversoul before interacting him was a bit weird for a serious read; I think that sometimes scum have the tendency to know who they want to push before they start actually pushing them (if that makes sense!) but finding this scumread after using Mastina for a jumping off point seems pretty reasonable to me. I think his argument of "Max and Oversoul are both being called scum for the same reasons but Max has a wagon so Oversoul is scum but I had more problems with Oversoul" is definitely a very weird argument that I don't like very much. I like where he ends his read on 1696; it seems kind of like a dejected backing away from the read although I don't really get why he gives up on pushing it where he did; he acknowledges that he never put effort into pushing it, but then says that no one's interesting because he's too boring.

[Imperium]

Besides, it's needed for the Wall, and if she is not answering it, maybe one of you will. What did she mean in 1668?

I don't know.

[Imperium]

@Leonshade:

Also thinking about TRing plantsy by proxy of Jae's interactions with her, nut that's too personal and emotionally charged for me to wade into.

What do you think of the argument I directed to Tammy about why I thought that plantsy's side of the interactions also looked town?
Post in question is here:

The short answer is, I love you and don't be afraid of hurting me because I promise you actually just can't <3

As town here nancy would back up a little and wonder if maybe it was just the dissociation messing with her read. Instead, she doubled down at a time where she knew I couldn't emotionally respond because my emotions were locked off from me and I was struggling to get them back.

Don't do this. This was an awesome post but that is low.

Trying to make 330 an AI post is also fucking digusting. Just don't. You should fucking know better I care about you way more than any fucking mafia game jesus christ

@Tammy

I think the sentiment expressed in 330 was genuine, and I can't see nancy emotionally manipulating Jae after a post like that as she would have had to in 656 (the implication that Jae is scum is still present which she'd have to be lying about if scum - "this is an awesome post" refers to the strength of a post if it were coming from scum), 663 carries an implication that Jae is trying to make a NAI post AI because they are scum).

Let me know if you'd like me to expand on this/rephrase; it's an awkward argument to piece together, but, if I try to piece it together enough times I'm sure I'll get it eventually!

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plantsy =196 =208 +547 +554 +702 -1570 -1577 -1618 -1621 -1628 -1690 =1691 -+1692 +1694 =1695 --==1696

I have some concerns about 702; I don't really understand why he decided against reading into the emotional stuff at all when he seems to use it as a strong reason to clear people elsewhere. These concerns are not significant since the most compelling scum reasoning I can think for it is trying to avoid clearing you and I don't really think that scum believe that they'll be able to get you mislynched this game. The argument Leonshade alludes to in 1570 is the one he expands on down the road (it's that one post that I liked quite a bit) - I think that's overall a good look for him. I don't like his push in 1690 because it seems like he's coming down unnecessarily hard on you, but I don't think that's incredibly unreasonable coming from someone who was scumreading you for a while. 1692 makes me feel a little better about Leonshade's 1694 (adds a little depth to something that otherwise looks like he's backing off just because they're doubting their read on him which has very transparent scum motivation).

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cute

I don't think that his observation is completely unfounded; it is weird how you didn't understand that Sora was confirmed to be town in this game (even after it was pointed out to you that Sora was confirmed town in this game) but knew about the bookie and knew that there were four scum. Do you disagree with that?

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Titus/RM

-240 +=544 =547 =607 =610 R =742 =1338 -1569 =1570 =1571 =1573 ==1696

Actually just surprised that Titus doesn't end up being a suspect of yours @Leonshade. A lot of these questions I wouldn't qualify as neutral (there seems to be lines that Titus is pushing that you disagree with, but you don't seem like you do anything with the answers) - could you expand on your read on Titus/RM a bit?

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So what bothers me about this is the way you make assumptions about other people's thought processes here in order to support your conclusion, and how you are not really seeming to do anything with this information. If you are really sorting Gamma here, why do you just decide that he would remember that? Why do you like the reasoning in the first place? What conclusion do you draw from the speed at which he made the connection? I just feel like you are being really surface level here and not really digging in to sort Gamma.

I think you're being unnecessarily harsh here.
The reason Leon thought that Gamma could remember something he's seen in a recent game is because he saw it in a recent game - this is not a particularly unreasonable assumption to make. I can see why he'd like that reasoning (I like it too, intuitively just feels town), and I don't think he needs to draw a conclusion from something that happened so early nor do I think he would feel obligated as town to put more work into something that happened so early and feel he has more motivation as scum to reach a conclusion with a read with as much nuance as that one does.

Here again I don't feel you are doing anything with this. It comes across as commentary. I don't see why town makes this post? Maybe it's playstyle, but I don't see why you would comment on every post you think has a reasonable argument just to say so? So again, since you haven't really done anything with this observation, it feels a little like an easy way to give and get townpoints.

I agree that the observation he makes here is shallow. I don't think it's unreasonable for him to make a post going "hey I think this makes FA more likely to be town" even if he doesn't feel incredibly confident about it.

Again, it's surface level. Scum can have original targets, scum can be aggressive. So this doesn't feel like real sorting to me.

Not a super compelling read, but wouldn't call it fake.

I just don't see the work.

Which on one hand is reasonable, but before this game I would argue that you as town didn't show your work pretty frequently so you should be able to see the motivation behind a townie making a pretty similar move.

I really don't like the sudden swing here and it kind of plays off my feelings earlier that you were kind of soft-pushing on JaeReed to try to give an appearance of sorting them without really wanting to commit to a scumread, and leaving yourself open for the townread when they started to be obvtown. I just don't get how you are so freely giving this townread to someone you had real suspicions about, even to the extent that you would townread me from it.

Don't think that this is a reasonable accusation; if Leon was afraid to commit to a JaeReed scumread, then I don't think he'd bust out the Machiavelli reference. I think that Jae's emotional knee-jerk responses are a fairly solid reason to lock them in as town.

Is it really, though? Anyone who has played here for a decent amount of time should know that selectively paying attention to games doesn't mean much, unless it's specific to someone's meta maybe, but even then it's kinda sketchy for this to be the focus and I don't think it's AI at all. In mastina's case, it's absolutely not AI because if mastina is intentionally lurking one game she will lurk in all games. And again, just considering your post, you haven't done anything with this information, it's like you're saying it just for the sake of saying it. (The same feeling I've gotten from so many of your posts by this point.)

I agree that it's not a particularly strong observation. I don't think it means anything for Leon's alignment.

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This feels a little pedantic / nitpicky and doesn't make me feel anything at all about what you're saying. I don't really get the sense that you're giving mhsmith an honest take here. Pointing out posts from JaeReed makes me worry, I wish you would show your work in those cases but I guess I've been a little lazy with elaborating on things this game too.

I agree that it's a nitpicky point.

I've already talked about the post but this part bothers me in particular right now. I don't have that shared meta but I haven't really gotten the feeling from Shiro that they've been transparent about their reads and I feel like you should be doing way more work here on a pretty controversial slot but instead you're just kind of being low-focus and noncommital about it and that unsettles me quite a bit. This feels kind of like how you gave an easy pass to Sly for reasons that seem overly generous towards their content.

This is a good observation; I agree that his read on Shiro is one of the more questionable ones.

I don't follow this and it feels kind of like a forced justification for a minor early gripe with JaeReed that you would've just dropped a while ago if you were town. I don't see how getting Titus to vote you furthers any kind of a scum agenda and I don't see where you've established why that behavior really is scummy.

The "you would have dropped this a while ago if you were town" point is particularly weak here - I think that whenever someone is getting heat for a particular line of thought, scum is more likely to drop that line of thought than town (think Bart dropping his push on Tammy in the Westeros game we played together).

I definitely don't think your scumgame is bad and I know that you don't think your scumgame is bad at all either so that definitely puts me on edge.

This is a reasonable observation; I know that we tease Leon for having a terrible scumgame but I wasn't under the impression that he agreed with us.

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I was thinking about writing up a "why I think Leon is town" type of post but I'm going to hold off on it in the hopes that Leon has time to answer some of the concerns I brought up about him.

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Thank you for going through nancy's PBP, nacho

Are there any points that she felt strongly about that I glossed over?

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Oversoul is probably who I'm going through next; I'm going to take a bit of a break but he seems like the person who I feel best about right now.

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Intent to gladiate Oversoul.

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More recent scum meta: viewtopic.php?t=71896&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

We the purple was not only two years ago but was also multiball.

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Most recent town meta viewtopic.php?t=71660&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

He hasn't played as oversoul at least for two? Years

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We still think Max would be a great target for gladiate.

Why better than Oversoul?

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The only thing I've liked was his questioning plantsy about their itlepip read and timing. One of the things with oversoul when he's town is that he picks up little weird threads like that and asks some quirky questions. Those quirky questions you can usually see are him trying to figure out the game as he marches to a different beat than the rest of the town.

I was hoping that he'd continue on with that and that would help me read him, and I was hoping he saw something odd in slysly and that's why the vote and then back off, but I am kinda concerned that that was distancing.

I'd have waited to say that but he's due a prod and didn't do anytng after the prod.

Oh one other thing I liked was him not getting after us about nacho saying he might want to graduate him, in we the purple he practically obsessed over my rvs vote, which was me just saying hello.

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Who is townreading Titus at the moment?